Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Smad]

47 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

If Cercei resists, a war breaks out and KL is left to ashes, ALL who partake in the war are culpable for innocent lives lost

If they actually fight another battle, and we know they will, all the people on the side of the 'good guys' who take up arms and kill anyone, are just as evil as any bad guy on this show. The good guys have Bran and Arya and that's all that's needed. A guy who sees everything and a woman who can sneak past thousands of wights, dozens of WW and drops from non-existent trees to kill a thousands of years old mythical creature...they should have no trouble ending Cersei and Euron and The Mountain. There is no need to kill more people, as most of the non-GC fighters are just regular folk who'd rather be anywhere else than in a battle.

[Stallion12]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I do think the PTWP thing is covered after the last episode, though more may come.

Without Jon, the PTWP, the entire set up in order to kill the NK would not have been possible.  In addition, he was the one to give Arya her first sword, and she is the one who actually kills the NK.

Now, the books may handle it differently, but the above does work for me.

The parts that didn't work for me is that the LONG night lasted exactly ONE NIGHT.  I mean, what?  It was supposed to last years, and yeah, Arya's success stopped it, but come on.  Nothing touched except the North, and even in the North, only Winterfell?

The NK seemed too smart for that, as that video posted in another thread details, the NSFW one because of all the fucks.  Why did he stop at Winterfell?  Yeah, he wanted Bran, but why not enlarge his army with people from the south before attacking his biggest threat?

Flip side, Jon and company had a massive castle that they didn't use for defense, they didn't even put the archers up on the battlements there, etc. etc.  Dragons not used for recon, everyone stand outside, or better yet, hide in the crypts!  I mean, come on, Jon is smarter than that, and so is Dany.

They obviously wanted it over and done, but it's the big bad.  I'm glad that is over an onto the next thing, but the resolve here is obviously short cutted beyond belief because they'd rather spend time with the humans (actors) in KL.

They said in the after the episode the strategy was to lure the night king out and jump him with Dany and John, but when the dithraki were wiped out Dany went in to soon. Its a terrible plan but thats what they went for.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I have no idea if that poster is right but, that is a well thought out analysis. 

Yeah, but I don't think that was Drogon in Cersei's view, at that distance we would clearly see a dragon tail and we didn't.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Not as satisfying as her becoming the benevolent Queen of Westeros, maybe, but I'd rather this show ended like Gladiator than Old Yeller.

Did you have to bring up Old Yeller !  : (

[Snowball II]

16 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I found the theory that both "Ice" and "Fire" need to be dealt with intriguing.

So do I.  For some reason, I never thought the dragons needed to be extinguished just like the White Walkers, probably because the show has portrayed them in a much more sympathetic light.  They've had touching moments with Dany as her "children", but they're killing machines.  Nuclear weapons, with wings.  As long as they're around, the threat of annihilation is always there.

Of course, in order for Dany to truly go "mad", she has to start killing innocents.  I'm interested to see how this all plays out.  If Jon has to be the one who kills her, I can see him living a Luke Skywalker, self-imposed exile somewhere in the North.  It would be a very sad ending for the both of them, but hey, at least the wheel would be broken.  Which is what Dany said she wanted. 

I need antidepressants, now.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Fiver

[FemmyV]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

What did you guys think of Arya's demeanor after sex?  I'm hoping that look was worry about the coming battle and not "well, that was certainly a let down."

She should have slept with Pod

[Meredith Quill]

If the Dany and Jon leaks prove true, I'll regret ever investing my time in the books and the show. I was promised bittersweet not bitterness.

[Constantinople]

Part of me wonders if TPTB ever considered spreading false spoilers

36 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

If the Dany and Jon leaks prove true, I'll regret ever investing my time in the books and the show. I was promised bittersweet not bitterness.

Or it my spawn an even larger fan fiction movement to "correct" the ending

[Wouter]

22 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Part of me wonders if TPTB ever considered spreading false spoiler

They probably did. Boatsexbaby for example, with her behind the scenes photos, could have been a plant. And now all those leaks erupting after 8x03. Hbo may have a hand in this.

[GraceK]

If these leaks are true...Marvel wins. And wow. That’s something. Because Stan Lee and Marvel have managed to end a series beautifully, and done justice to something that are based on COMIC BOOKS.

perfect example is the character of Bucky Barnes Movie version. He suffers abuses, brainwashing, kills Tony Starks parents and is responsible unwittingly for the events of Civil War , yet captain America still sees the good in him and refuses to kill him. Bucky is still a hero. Marvel has managed  to create this beautiful friendship between a morally ambiguous character and the epitome of sainthood and gets away with it with rave respect.  And in comparison...Jon kills Dany? Really? 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

Endgame comes across as a thousand times better in retrospect, and in interest. This ending according to leaks is disgusting, boring and insulting.  Embarrassing actually when you consider the quality of tv out there now.

Edited May 5, 2019 by GraceK

[Umbelina]

From 2013.

At about 9:10 GRRM is asked an important question.  His answer seems apt to this discussion.  He wanted to deal honestly with the consequences of war, and the struggle for power, what are we fighting for?  He doesn't think absolute good or evil is real, all of us have the capacity for great love and for great evil.  It's not about everyone getting together to fight the great bad guy.

I think that description fits well with the spoilers.  It's about war, not heroines or heroes, and that goes back to what I was saying about the "small folk" being probably the best of GRRM's writing.

All of these big shots, or "nobles" or "stars" aren't really what this story is about, at least that's how I see it.  It's not about a handful of people, it's about all of humanity.  It's more of a Bran thing, now that I think of it.  Looking out for the survival of humans, not a particular human, which is why he would be a great overseer of a council, not King, not even their leader.  I doubt he will be interested in anything they do as long as it won't lead to harm for the human race.  When he sees them on a dangerous path, he will show them, warn them, tell them.

I can see GRRM writing this kind of ending.

If the spoilers are an HBO fake out, well?  Good for them, because they used very plausible spoilers.

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, John Potts said:

Maybe he's realised he was wrong? Had Danny gone straight for Kings Landing initially, a lot more people would be alive now (she had overwhelming superiority on land and total air supremacy). Yes, Kings Landing might have been destroyed by wildfire and in any case, a lot of people there would die - but in giving Cersei time to dig in, Team Starkgaryen has ensured that their victory (assuming Cersei doesn't beat them) will be more bloody - and may end in a fiery conflagration anyway.

If the dragons are a stand in for nuclear weapons, it's like arguing that dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought the Second World War to a quicker conclusion and thus caused fewer deaths even on the Japanese side. And with Cersei (and presumably Euron) dead, they could have then moved to face the dead with all three dragons and the forces of the Reach on their side.

War may be an inherently evil activity, but fighting ineffectually just prolongs it. Jon might well agonise over more killing, but sometimes it's necessary to put the mad dog down.

You are ignoring the night king. Once past the wall the zombies needed to be stopped first.

Are you saying she should have just obliterated KL on her way to Winterfell? This is not analogous to the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. For one thing Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor — that would have been the assault that would be analogous to dany’s bombing KL initially.  If Cersei had destroyed Meereen we could talk about whether destroying Kings landing was a fair retaliation  

Dany is the conquerer here. 

[Azi]

I thought about HBO planting these spoilers, but don't really believe it, cause why would they do so now and not closer to the finale? The spoilers are for several episodes, so the episode tonight could easily debunk at least some of them and they'd gain nothing. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

 

It's more of a Bran thing, now that I think of it.  Looking out for the survival of humans, not a particular human, which is why he would be a great overseer of a council, not King, not even their leader.  I doubt he will be interested in anything they do as long as it won't lead to harm for the human race.  When he sees them on a dangerous path, he will show them, warn them, tell them. 

I have yet to see anything in this show that convinces me that Bran/3 eyed raven is in any way a help or cares for the human race. In fact, if they plan to reveal in the final episode that he's the evil mastermind behind everything I would buy this easily.

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

If the Dany and Jon leaks prove true, I'll regret ever investing my time in the books and the show. I was promised bittersweet not bitterness.

If Dany and Jon die because this is their endgame, I guarantee you, it will not go down this way in the books. 

D&D are going for maximum shock if these leaks happen.

Edited May 5, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Are you saying she should have just obliterated KL on her way to Winterfell?

No, she should have obliterated Cersei. Cersei should have been done with in 7x02. In S6 the dragons had almost drone like precision, so just fly one directly in front of Cersei's window and dracarys. It would only cause damage to the upper levels of the Red Keep. The people in KL (if they were allowed to act like real people) would have celebrated Dany for killing the person who blew up the Vatikan and gladly opened the doors for her armies.

But D&D are such Lannister lovers that Cersei always wins.

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

You are ignoring the night king. Once past the wall the zombies needed to be stopped first. 

Are you saying she should have just obliterated KL on her way to Winterfell? This is not analogous to the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. For one thing Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor — that would have been the assault that would be analogous to dany’s bombing KL initially.

I wasn't ignoring the Night King. Had Danny moved her army to attack Kings Landing first, she would (probably) have kept all three of her dragons. Yes, she would have lost troops doing so, but she lost troops (notably the Tyrells) not doing so too. I was not suggesting Danny burn KL - though Cersei might do so in response - but assault it (like Stannis did). While there would inevitably be civilian casualties, it would end the (human) war faster. The people are suffering because there is a war on (and because Cersei is a mass murderer!) so bringing it to a swift conclusion is a good thing, even if you think Danny is a worse Queen than Cersei (which I don't, but people seem to believe that). Danny could then move to fight the Night King with what forces she had left.

In any case (though Danny would have no reason to know that), if she hadn't tried to convince Cersei by flying North of the Wall, she wouldn't have lost a dragon and so it would have been three dragons against the Army of the Dead instead of two dragons against one, even assuming the Night King could get through the Wall at all (since it was Viserion that brought it down).

[Wouter]

Taking a step back from actual or fake spoilers/leaks for a moment, I'd like to take a step back and look at the ending from a book perspective. D&D have often said they are/have been working toward GRRM's ending, which they have known for years. I doubt they would, on their own and going against GRRM's ideas, introduce something as enormous as the main male protagonist killing the main female protagonist, so it would have to be GRRM's idea and intention for the books, in all likelihood. I disagree with YaddaYadda, on this point.

So, the books are generally more complex and there are additional elements, like (f)Aegon with his involvement with the GC/Illyrio/Varys, Volantis,with its armies and fleets, Moqorro, Victarion, the Daynes, Marwyn and the other archmaesters, the full PTWP/Azor Ahai prophecies etc.

Let's take a look at some prophecies that are in the books (partially also in the show):

From the house of the undying, Dany receives the following: "three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love... three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love... three treasons will you know... once for blood and once for gold and once for love..."

The treasons are the most interesting in the context of S8 and the show's ending. The treason for blood was likely Mirri Maz Duur (revenge for her people), the treason for gold may be Brown Ben Plumm (a sellsword captain who switched sides for the gold of Yunkai), the treason for love is still completely open. Suggestion for the latter have been, among others, Ser Barristan (in that case, he would supposedly meet Ashara Dayne, involved with (f)Aegon somehow), Tyrion (for Jaime, or because Dany spurns him) and Jon (for the Starks or something to do with the AA prophecy). It's all vague enough that it is hard to draw conclusions, especially with the show not mentioning them (so the treason for love could involve false Aegon, who is not in the show).

Admittedly, there is room here for a shocking betrayal for Dany.

Another important book prophecy, also seen on the show in shortened version, is this one: "Queen you [Cersei] shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." and its follow-up: "Six-and-ten for him, and three for you [children for the king and the queen, respectively]. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you"

In the books, the "queen" prophecy has been attributed mostly to Margaery and Dany (with Sansa as a dark horse) and the "valonqar" most often to Jaime or Tyrion. The former was mentioned in the show and should thus come to past. Since Margaery died, presumably while not having "cast Cersei down and taken everything that she held dear", it would have to Dany or Sansa. This prophecy seems to points against most of the leaks, as Dany nor Sansa seem to take the Iron Throne or otherwise replace Cersei in her present functions. And killing Cersei should be a job of the Valonqar, so if Dany would kill Cersei while on a rampage in KL/The Red Keep it still wouldn't count for this prophecy.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Wouter

[SimoneS]

Here is another leak from someone is reputably reliable. It explains the confusing "Jon joins the Night Watch" plot.  It seems like people have seen bits of pieces of the episodes, mostly likely CGI and editors, so they don't have everything, but the one constant is that Jon kills Dany.

Quote

‘Longacre’ is a reputable leaker/spoiler from the CU and CCE forums who gave 100% accurate accounts of S4 thru S6(months in advance) and also leaked entire episode plots of TD S1,S2. Also, it was he who recently pointed out on YT, Friki’s S8 E1 inaccuracies, including the Jamie/Bran scene at the end, which Friki completely left out.

He went dark after S6, but supposedly he was back on CU with new leaks(or at least he was until the fuck-face mods banned him).... he echos a lot of the same plot leaks re: Jon killing Dany, but he adamantly refutes the Friki Tyrion trial/death ‘leak’.

His claims:

Bran reveals that the NK/WW arc is far from over. The NK’s identity is discovered by Sam which is confirmed by Bran. Davos and the Hound go to retrieve Mel’s body, but it’s gone. Arya thanks the Hound for his heroics, he tells her to “thank him, he’s the true hero” while standing over Beric’s body.

Tormund and the rest of the Wildlings are given several northern castles, and some will start the new NW. Ep. 4 effectively ends their story arc.

Dany is over confident to a fault and when things go wrong, blames Missandei’s capture and subsequent trial and death on Vary’s and Tyrion and that marks the beginning of her downward spiral. Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Varys and Davos are informed of Jon’s true identity by Bran and Sam.

Rhaegal is gravely injured(didn’t say whether or not he dies) in ep. 5, NOT ep. 4.

Euron is severely burned(dragon fire?) and then killed by Yara. Most of Euron’s fleet the GC are wiped out in ep. 5.... the rest of the GC turn on Cersei.

Sansa meets with the Iron Bank rep.

‘Clegane Bowl’ is nothing more than the Hound mercy killing an already mortally wounded Mountain. The Hound, Bronn, Podrick, Gendry and Ayra kill several GC and Lannister soldiers.

Qyburn is revealed to have his own agenda.

The big Dire Wolf scenes happen in ep.’s 5-6, no more wolves die.

Jaime and Brienne have a brief, on-screen sex scene.... Jaime apparently doesn’t betray anything or anyone, in fact he vouches for Jon to Cersei in a scene where Jon had voluntarily surrendered himself(very confusing). Bran had informed Jaime(off screen?) that Cersei’s ‘pregnancy’ was a ruse.... he doesn’t actually kill her, but sets the trap that seals her fate.

Drogon burns down most of the Red Keep.

Vary’s is executed by Greyworm. Jon kills Greyworm and other unsullied and is finally forced to kill Dany.... Drogon just looks at Jon and then takes her body and flies off.

The Hound is last seen building a house(?) somewhere in the country side.

That’s it unfortunately.... very random and choppy. Nothing about what ultimately happens with Jon or the rest of the Starks and nothing more about Tyrion or Jaime or anyone else.

This is a guy with a sterling track record for leaks. There are many CU/CCE members who are convinced that Longacre and Truede are one in the same.

I guess we’ll soon find out.

[Wouter]

At least this has some concrete info on EP4, so we will be able to verify the accuracy soon enough.

[Lillith]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Here is another leak from someone is reputably reliable. It explains the confusing "Jon joins the Night Watch" plot.  It seems like people have seen bits of pieces of the episodes, mostly likely CGI and editors, so they don't have everything, but the one constant is that Jon kills Dany.

Thank you for posting this. I've been reading everyone's posts and the spoilers with great interest and this is the only one that makes at least some narrative sense. Still not loving the Jon kills Dany thing but maybe it will make more sense watching the full episodes. 

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

If Dany and Jon die because this is their endgame, I guarantee you, it will not go down this way in the books. 

D&D are going for maximum shock if these leaks happen.

Martin has said the core points to the ending will be the same.

That said, again, these supposed leaks will hurt the franchise and hurt the hype for the sequels. As others said it's not bittersweet at all.

[Stallion12]

29 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Here is another leak from someone is reputably reliable. It explains the confusing "Jon joins the Night Watch" plot.  It seems like people have seen bits of pieces of the episodes, mostly likely CGI and editors, so they don't have everything, but the one constant is that Jon kills Dany.

That sounds a bit better. I guess we will see tonight.

[Bannon]

12 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Remember, these are the characters who had the bright idea of putting their forces in front of their static defenses and decided to have their light cavalry charge into an enemy they literally couldn't see while also limiting themselves to one or two trebuchet strikes thanks to starting it while the Dothraki were charging.  Military stupidity is actually consistent with what we've seen.

Again, I'd recommend reading a very interesting piece in Slate, by a professor at the Army War College, in which he explains that the Dothraki cavalry was likely to be lost, with little utility gained, no matter the tactic employed, due to the unique characteristics of the AotD, the NK's weapons, and it taking place at night. I forgive the trebuchet placement because it's a t.v. show and they have to sometimes go for visual effect.

What annoys me is the dumb military stuff used purely to get to the desired plot outcome. Sansa's enlistment of The Vale is to be the critical factor at the BotB, so we can't give the giant a useful weapon to swat away shield and pikemen. Mereen needs Dany to save the day, so it is written that this city built a giant freakin' pyramid on the shore of harbor, but never developed any weapons to use from that superior height when an enemy fleet shows up, hurling their own projectiles.

Now we're going to have characters too stupid to figure out the best way to use dragons against a fleet with ballistas, and how to use one of the best special operators in that world, to decimate the enemy's command structure. Just so we can have our Suprise Tragic Plot Twists. 

Ach, maybe this genre's just not for me, but I really think you can maintain dramatic tension via better writing, and not rely on convenient character idiocy.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Bannon

[Spartan Girl]

I sill don't buy that Drogon just flies off without doing anything.

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

If Dany and Jon die because this is their endgame, I guarantee you, it will not go down this way in the books. 

D&D are going for maximum shock if these leaks happen.

 Guess we will never know because we are NEVER going to get the books. Perhaps that's the real reason why GRRM hasn't finished them yet: because once he knew that the show would finish first, he knew most of us would hate this ending so much that we'd never bother to read them.

Still trying to cling to the hope that the leaks are fake, because like everyone else said this sure as hell wouldn't be bittersweet. But again, I guess we'll find out tonight.

[Affogato]

59 minutes ago, Smad said:

No, she should have obliterated Cersei. Cersei should have been done with in 7x02. In S6 the dragons had almost drone like precision, so just fly one directly in front of Cersei's window and dracarys. It would only cause damage to the upper levels of the Red Keep. The people in KL (if they were allowed to act like real people) would have celebrated Dany for killing the person who blew up the Vatikan and gladly opened the doors for her armies.

But D&D are such Lannister lovers that Cersei always wins.

Ever since Ned warns Cersei, and he dies for his kindness, this has been a theme in the show. Not the show runners love for the Lannisters, I don’t see that as a factor (because book, for one thing). Ned and Dany and a bunch of others don’t do these things because if they did they would eventually, possibly by degrees, become Cersei. 

While Truman may have made a correct decision, during an active war, given the information he had it turned out he did not know how long the bombs would poison Hiroshima and Nagasaki and that, sadly, this information was not unknown. 

At the least Dany would face a fear of assassination for the rest of her life. Her dragons would be targeted and they are pretty vulnerable  (practice makes perfect).  A short and unpleasant return of the Targaryens to power.

i don’t see it as a good hand to play in the great game  

[Meredith Quill]

Here's my own fanwank sweet-not-sweet cure for the bitter that's a-comin'. 

Epilogue:

Their saviour murdered, the followers of R'hllor (shout out to the Fiery Hand!) rise up. They sail across the narrow sea and murder every👏 last👏 inhabitant👏 of Westeros for being ungrateful fucks. Except baby Sam, who's destiny is to become the next progenitor of the Others. Years later, the Others amass an unstoppable army and take over Planetos, so begins the never-ending Night. Good night, and fuck you very much.

Of course this all happens 'offscreen'...

FU D&D and FU GRRM if this is your endgame. You better stay far away from the internet indeed! See how easy it is to be a shitty writer - I can do it too!

#Ihavenofuckslefttogive #burnfuckthemall #saltyAF #teamTheGreatOther

[cambridgeguy]

15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

At the least Dany would face a fear of assassination for the rest of her life. Her dragons would be targeted and they are pretty vulnerable  (practice makes perfect).  A short and unpleasant return of the Targaryens to power.

i don’t see it as a good hand to play in the great game  

That's arguably true in any scenario where she ends up winning.  By modern sensibilities going scorched earth on a city and massacring civilians is horrendous and a war crime.  But in Westeros I doubt that someone from the Vale (Lord Royce, for example) or any other region gives a rat's ass about how some poor people in KL died as long as they're sure it won't also happen to them.  History is written by the winners so as long as Dany could rule well after the attack she'd probably be hailed in the same way Aegon I was, she'd just have to get there first.  I think Tyrion and Jon believe Dany would be irrevocably stained by that act but that may not be true.  Maybe decades in the future the maesters would climb up on their soapboxes and debate the ethics of that strategy but that's hardly a concern.  I guess the bottom line is that you can't really be a "nice" conqueror, especially if a big chunk of your forces were Dothraki (let's rape and pillage the countryside!) and dragons.  Of course the Dothraki are no longer a part of the picture.

[Stallion12]

32 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I sill don't buy that Drogon just flies off without doing anything.

 Guess we will never know because we are NEVER going to get the books. Perhaps that's the real reason why GRRM hasn't finished them yet: because once he knew that the show would finish first, he knew most of us would hate this ending so much that we'd never bother to read them.

Still trying to cling to the hope that the leaks are fake, because like everyone else said this sure as hell wouldn't be bittersweet. But again, I guess we'll find out tonight.

That's the kicker, because the writing is so bad, it's believable. Normally I brush off leaks as maybe true, this is so bad I'm thinking it's definitely true.

[Eyes High]

Quote

Bran reveals that the NK/WW arc is far from over. The NK’s identity is discovered by Sam which is confirmed by Bran.

This reeks of bullshit. No one cares about the NK's identity at this point. Are they going to do forensic reconstruction on a pile of ice shards?

I also don't buy that Gendry and Arya are fighting the GC and Lannister soldiers in KL together. Joe Dempsie wrapped in mid-May while Maisie filmed through June and into early July.

I do like the idea of the Hound surviving and building a quiet little house somewhere.

This sounds like piggybacking off the other (f)leaks and throwing some other stuff in to make it sound plausible. We had no leaks for months, and what fleaks there were presupposed that Winterfell would fall to the NK, and now suddenly five or six different sources are saying the same thing?

Edited May 5, 2019 by Eyes High

[aprilbabe]

So Jon doesn’t just kill Dany but Greyworm too.😬😬 Greyworm who is grieving for the love of his life. Well if that happens halo around Jon’s head is going to go away.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

You are ignoring the night king. Once past the wall the zombies needed to be stopped first.

Are you saying she should have just obliterated KL on her way to Winterfell? This is not analogous to the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. For one thing Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor — that would have been the assault that would be analogous to dany’s bombing KL initially.  If Cersei had destroyed Meereen we could talk about whether destroying Kings landing was a fair retaliation  

Dany is the conquerer here. 

The deliberate slaughter of civilians at the end of WWII, Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, was the end result of the Japanese Imperialists and Nazis engaging in the wholesale deliberate slaughter of civilians from the beginning of the war they started. Thus when the war was finished, The Horror of it was nearly incomprehensible, and remains so today.

I actually like the idea of this saga ending with a parallel to that nearly incomprehensible Horror, including a violent struggle among the leadership of the anti-Cersei forces, as they grapple with how far they should sink themselves into that Horror, in their struggle to prevail over Cersei.

If these leaks are accurate, however, I fear they have just completely botched the writing needed to get to that very interesting outcome.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Bannon

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, Wouter said:

They probably did. Boatsexbaby for example, with her behind the scenes photos, could have been a plant. And now all those leaks erupting after 8x03. Hbo may have a hand in this.

Then you got to hand it to them, for beating most leakers at there own game.

[Meredith Quill]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I actually like the idea of this saga ending with a parallel to that nearly incomprehensible Horror, including a violent struggle among the leadership of the anti-Cersei forces, as they grapple with how far they should sink themselves into that Horror, in their struggle to prevail over Cersei.

If these leaks are accurate, however, I fear they have just completely botched the writing needed to get to that very interesting outcome.

This. I have no issues with Jon & co subverting Dany if it looks like she's going to do something unforgivable out of grief and anger but having him kill her? Nope, no, uh-uh. Take out/hobble her dragons (or dragon if only Drogon is left), imprison her, exile her - anything except straight up stab her dead - wtAf. Not only is it lazy writing, it's writing designed for a big shock moment, and we all know how much D&D love those to the detriment of good story-telling. 

This is why I strongly suspect it's true:

• D&D's love for shock moments at the cost of good storytelling
• Emilia's "It fucked me up" comment
• Extra's audibly gasping at a shock death
• D&D's "Far away from the internet" remark, indicating they know people are gonna be very unhappy because there's no sweet in this, only bitter.

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

This. I have no issues with Jon & co subverting Dany if it looks like she's going to do something unforgivable out of grief and anger but having him kill her? Nope, no, uh-uh. Take out her dragons (or dragon if only Drogon is left), imprison her, exile her - anything except straight up stab her dead - wtAf. Not only is it lazy writing, it's writing designed for a big shock moment, and we all know how much D&D love those to the detriment of good story-telling. 

This is why I strongly suspect it's true:

• D&D's love for shock moments at the cost of good storytelling
• Emilia's "It fucked me up" comment
• Extra's audibly gasping at a shock death
• D&D's "Far away from the internet" remark, indicating they know people are gonna be very unhappy because there's no sweet in this, only bitter.

I have no problem with a largely bitter ending. I am possibly annoyed by what may be poor story construction to get to that bitter ending. Many of these characters needed to be written differently, and the pieces on the board, that they are manipulating, needed a different arrangement.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Bannon

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Looks like Cersei has spiked the Towers in King's Landing With Wildfire. Source is Freefolk:

[Bannon]

Is it ever explained in the books why Wildfire only is manufactured and used in KL? A secret formula? It's too dangerous to transport?

[Stallion12]

I'm ok woth cersi burning down kings landing to prevent John and Danny from taking it.

[ShellsandCheese]

Why would Sansa be meeting with someone from the Iron Bank? That’s the one that makes the least sense to me. And Kit has said the last scene he shot was of him walking along the beach with Davos and GreyWorm. I know they don’t film in order but still. And I don’t buy Jon killing GreyWorm. Or that Drogon would just carry Dany’s body off and disappear. Which probably means it will happen, lol.

[SimoneS]

56 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This reeks of bullshit. No one cares about the NK's identity at this point. Are they going to do forensic reconstruction on a pile of ice shards?

Maybe the NK's identity is tied to why they are reestablishing the Night Watch. He will always be a threat they must guard against. It sounds ridiculous to me, but I can see Martin going this way.

34 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

This is why I strongly suspect it's true:

• D&D's love for shock moments at the cost of good storytelling
• Emilia's "It fucked me up" comment
• Extra's audibly gasping at a shock death
• D&D's "Far away from the internet" remark, indicating they know people are gonna be very unhappy because there's no sweet in this, only bitter.

Same here. I will also add Emilia's comment to Vanity Fair, “knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone's mouth of what Daenerys is ...." Put all of this together and I have a bad feeling that I cannot shake off. It is my spider sense going off.

34 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

This. I have no issues with Jon & co subverting Dany if it looks like she's going to do something unforgivable out of grief and anger but having him kill her? Nope, no, uh-uh. Take out/hobble her dragons (or dragon if only Drogon is left), imprison her, exile her - anything except straight up stab her dead - wtAf. Not only is it lazy writing, it's writing designed for a big shock moment, and we all know how much D&D love those to the detriment of good story-telling. 

Martin could have just had Jon imprison Dany in a nunnery like where they sent Cersei in the books or even take her with him into exile to the Night Watch. Instead, he has Jon stab her in heart. Goes to show, Dany is the only character with power who must have mercy.

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

Legit 8x04 footage has leaked:

 

Euron downs Rhaegal before Dany's eyes. Tyrion and Varys rush to watch on one of Dany's ships.

Jon is not riding Rhaegal when this happens as far as I can tell.

There is also a video of Missandei being executed by the Mountain.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Eyes High

[Morrigan2575]

Well that certainly supports recent spoilers and strengthens their claims. Moving from 6/10 to 8/10 for the spoiling the dead leaks and the one from months ago that had Arya killing the NK.

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Why would Sansa be meeting with someone from the Iron Bank? That’s the one that makes the least sense to me.

If they were going to bring the Iron Bank back into the story they’d use Mark Gatiss’ character, and we’ve already been told he’s not in this season.

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Legit 8x04 footage has leaked:

  Hide contents

Euron downs Rhaegal before Dany's eyes. Tyrion and Varys rush to watch on one of Dany's ships.

Oh, good grief, that's stupid. "I've seen one of my Dragons wounded by one of these weapons already, but it'll never occur to me that they would build many of the weapons, and mount them on ships. I thus will attack those ships in broad daylight, and give the enemy gunners their best chance at a successful shot. Then I'll go crazy!"

[aprilbabe]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Oh, good grief, that's stupid. "I've seen one of my Dragons wounded by one of these weapons already, but it'll never occur to me that they would build many of the weapons, and mount them on ships. I thus will attack those ships in broad daylight, and give the enemy gunners their best chance at a successful shot. Then I'll go crazy!"

I wonder if she doesn't realize they are there. It looks like they are just arriving at dragonstone and Euron fleet is hidden. Poor Rhaegal.

[Meredith Quill]

27 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Is it ever explained in the books why Wildfire only is manufactured and used in KL? A secret formula? It's too dangerous to transport?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe only the pyromancers know how to make it and the pyromancers only work for the crown.

[Minneapple]

Looks like the leaks are legit.

[nikma]

It's time for that Ramsay's quote. Lol

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Looks like the leaks are legit.

Also debunks Tyrion's trial, doesn't it?

Even assuming all the other leaks from the same source are garbage, it's safe to conclude that no matter what happens, Dany's really not going to react well to losing Rhaegal and Missandei.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Eyes High

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

It's time for that Ramsay's quote. Lol

Bittersweet =/= happy 

Bitter is just bitter.