Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Me, too. I'm here for the drama and the angst, no question. It's going to be messy as hell. I can't wait.

I agree. Dany's probably itching for revenge against Cersei, hurting from the loss of her Dothraki and Unsullied (as well as Jorah), and looking for a fresh target. She's also probably glad to have gotten a big win and to return to her real goal: the Iron Throne. So from Dany's perspective, I understand why she wants to rush, and I also understand why her allies might be less than thrilled at the prospect. Either way, it seems like Dany gets her wish, since we see Targaryen ships sailing in the 8x04 promo.

I think for reasons of storytelling economy, there will probably be one scene where pretty much everyone is told about Jon's parentage, rather than a series of individual scenes as the news gets out. Maybe Sam is fed up with Dany's talk of her plans as queen, blurts out the truth at one of these big great hall meetings and all hell breaks loose. I thought Sophie or Maisie said that Sansa and Arya wouldn't wait very long to find out Jon's parentage, either.

Yes, and Dany is SO CLOSE to her goal now, all those years, and it's finally within her reach.  I expect that will make her even less compromising or sensible than usual.

The one scene makes sense, but I was just spitballing the spoilers, including the new one about a wedding and trying to mesh them together.  Obviously, something big would have to happen for Jon to kill her (unless it's Arya wearing his face, but perhaps even then?)

As you said earlier, and we all know, weddings are bad in GRRM's world, so it just made a kind of sense to me that if Dany does die by Jon's hand, a wedding would be a very GRRM way to do that. 

My childish self would love to know the color of that wedding if all of this happens to be true.  ha.

[Morrigan2575]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The spoiler doesn't say he's the leader though, it says:  In the epilogue, Jon takes the black again for killing Dany. Arya leaves. Sansa rules the North. Bran oversees his council of Tyrion, Davos, Sam, and Bronn. 

As an overseer, he seems just about perfect.

I read oversees his council as leader.

Why/how does your post have a bright yellow border? I've never seen that before.

ETA. Now mine is yellow and yours isn't? Just indicating the last post?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[domina89]

25 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I don't know who would be getting married at this point, unless Jon and Dany smooth things over.

Grey Worm and Missandei?  I realize Naath doesn't have marriage but maybe they want to have some kind of commitment ceremony or something?

Edited May 1, 2019 by domina89

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I read oversees his council as leader.

Why/how does your post have a bright yellow border? I've never seen that before.

ETA. Now mine is yellow and yours isn't? Just indicating the last post?

I think it's the new way of showing "post you haven't seen as yet."

Nah, to me, the wording "oversees" is very specific and again, if spoilers are true, means that there IS no one leader or King.  Oversees to me means that he makes sure they don't fuck up, but other than that acts more as facilitator than boss.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Maybe now that the Night Watch is probably a thing of the past Sam can officially marry Gilly?

[Eyes High]

I thought I saw one of D&D saying something to the effect that they gave Arya the NK kill and that they were saving other kills for Jon. There really aren't that many kills left, though. Cersei, Euron, the Mountain (seems likely to be killed by Sandor), Tyrion (if he's executed by Jon), and...Harry Strickland, maybe, I guess, who's really small potatoes. I doubt Jon is going to kill Cersei.

It looks like Jon leaves Tormund at Winterfell from that one promo shot of 8x04 and goes to KL. Going back to the Randalstown forest filming in March 2018, where Kit and Kristofer as well as other actors filmed a very short scene in a forest dusted lightly with fake snow, it seems like we now know by process of elimination that this forest scene with Jon and Tormund is from 8x06. One of the prop trucks had a big sleigh-looking prop in it, so it's possible that Bran was in this scene, too. Is this Jon resettling the wildlings? Bidding Tormund a last farewell? Seems like epilogue stuff to me. The scene was shot in one day in March 2018, so it's not a long one. And if Jon is playing a role in resettling the wildlings, does that mean Jon is king after all? If there's only a little snow in the scene, maybe the seasons recalibrate themselves and the winter is much shorter than anticipated.

Is there any indication that Brienne accompanies Jaime to KL? I remember information from extras about filming with Nikolaj, but nothing about Gwendoline. Does Brienne stay behind at Winterfell with Sansa?

[MissLucas]

26 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Why/how does your post have a bright yellow border? I've never seen that before.

ETA. Now mine is yellow and yours isn't? Just indicating the last post?

Site layout seems to have changed over the past hour - very spooky, I blame the 3ER.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It looks like Jon leaves Tormund at Winterfell from that one promo shot of 8x04 and goes to KL.  

If this is true, he must be crazy. 

[Oscirus]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Is there any indication that Brienne accompanies Jaime to KL? I remember information from extras about filming with Nikolaj, but nothing about Gwendoline. Does Brienne stay behind at Winterfell with Sansa?

I don't imagine she'd be cool with sending her most treasured guard away to fight that war and since Brienne is bound by her oath, doubtful.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Let’s say the series ends with some sort of council, Bran is still arguably their worst choice to be head of said council. If you’re head of a council you need to have a certain set of diplomatic skills and be able to and want to communicate clearly. Bran doesn’t do that. Also, the person would need to be as unbiased and fair as possible. That pretty much rules out most of the main cast because they all have an agenda, bias, and would want to secure special status for their interests. 

IMO Bran is the worst choice because Bran doesn't exist anymore. It's not even clear if he's human at all since the 3ER was never defined on the show. But one thing is clear, the 3ER doesn't care about anything other than the survival of the 3ER. Think about all the deaths that were unnecessary that the 3ER could have prevented if he cared about humanity as a whole. 8x03 has proven once and for all that the 3ER knows the future, he gave Arya the dagger knowing what she would do. He also knew Arya would pull a last second save.

So why did the 3ER not prevent the wight hunt last Season that prematurely let the AotD into Westeros? Why did he not prevent Ned Umber from dying a pointless death? Why not warn the people and get them out of Last Heart? He let Theon die for no reason. He probably could have thought of a much better plan with less casualties if he cared. The 3ER used the people of Westeros as meat shields to get rid of his worst enemy. And apparently will be the ultimate winner by ruling over it all in the end. Genius when you think about it. This all seeing, god like figure ends up on top because he sacrificed everyone else to get there. But then evil will win the end as I don't see the 3ER as good.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That's exactly WHY Bran is a logical and actually brilliant choice to be the head of a counsel ruling Westeros.  He's detached from "human affairs" which are mostly petty and self serving frankly.  He isn't going to be "King" according to that spoiler, he's going to lead a counsel (a really good group IMO) of humans, and I think because of who Bran is, that doesn't mean making pronouncements and ordering them around.  That means mostly guiding them if they go astray, and being a facilitator who helps them get along and make decisions, but stops them from normal human excesses.

How exactly would Bran act as a facilitator?  He has basically no social skills, and seems to have no real interest in social niceties or any sort of personal connection.

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

I don't imagine she'd be cool with sending her most treasured guard away to fight that war and since Brienne is bound by her oath, doubtful.

Brienne's time in the North is always just her being parked between the points when they need her for her story with Jaime, so if he goes south, I'd expect her to as well.

[ShellsandCheese]

I would imagine that there will also be a time jump of at least a few months from the end of 8.3 to the start of whatever is about to happen with Cersei; at least as far as any big battles go. Even if it's not spelled out maybe it would be inferred just based on what we know about travel times - but then again, Theon got to Winterfell real quick, lol. 

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, Smad said:

IMO Bran is the worst choice because Bran doesn't exist anymore. It's not even clear if he's human at all since the 3ER was never defined on the show.

Yes, because humans have done such a bang up job of things?

Burning stores of food, killing the small folk right and left, decimating their lives, all in the quest for an ugly throne?

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Brienne's time in the North is always just her being parked between the points when they need her for her story with Jaime, so if he goes south, I'd expect her to as well.

She's not the type to ignore a vow.  Her job is protecting Caitlyn's kids.  If she does go, it will be because Sansa orders her to go.

[SimoneS]

On 4/30/2019 at 11:28 AM, Eyes High said:

I think the leaker also posted on another account under a throwaway (not sure if it's the same leaker) that Sansa and Tyrion scheme together against Dany, that Sansa strings Tyrion along with promises of ruling together and then doublecrosses him to claim it all. (On the other hand, I thought this leaker said that Tyrion ends up on Bran's council, so...?) There's something important for the plot about that Sansa/Tyrion moment in the crypts, so who knows? I don't think Sansa was playing Tyrion with her talk about his divided loyalties and dangling their marriage as a carrot to get Tyrion to switch sides, but you never know.

Again, the leaker stated that he did not post anything about Sansa and Tyrion scheming in his original post. Someone reposted his leak and added that in several months later. His original post was nine months ago.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

I'm speaking from my own experience. People around me hate her. And they are all casual fans.

Millions of people watch the GoT. Because you have a small group around who feel a certain way, it doesn't mean that it is representative of the audience as a whole. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by SimoneS

[Smad]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, because humans have done such a bang up job of things?

Burning stores of food, killing the small folk right and left, decimating their lives, all in the quest for an ugly throne?

The point is, the 3ER is NO different. His main goal is his own survival and he doesn't give a damn whoever or how many die for it. Jesus the 3ER said it himself in 8x02. He's the world's memory and said memory has to be kept alive.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Smad said:

The point is, the 3ER is NO different. His main goal is his own survival and he doesn't give a damn whoever or how many die for it. Jesus the 3ER said it himself in 8x02. He's the world's memory and said memory has to be kept alive.

Maybe he has to survive in order to save the humans from themselves? 

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, because humans have done such a bang up job of things?

Burning stores of food, killing the small folk right and left, decimating their lives, all in the quest for an ugly throne?

You need to have humanity to be an effective head of state.  Bran isn't merely dispassionate, he's for the most part indifferent.

Quote

She's not the type to ignore a vow.  Her job is protecting Caitlyn's kids.  If she does go, it will be because Sansa orders her to go.

My point is simply that Brienne is primarily a Jaime-related character, so she'll go wherever he goes, whatever the narrative mechanics employed to justify it (or they might simply ignore it).

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

You need to have humanity to be an effective head of state.  Bran isn't merely dispassionate, he's for the most part indifferent.

My point is simply that Brienne is primarily a Jaime-related character, so she'll go wherever he goes, whatever the narrative mechanics employed to justify it (or they might simply ignore it).

Why?  "Humanity" or at least having human leaders hasn't benefited the majority of the humans in this tale.  Everything they own has been destroyed, they have been killed for fun and profit since these books and show began.

I don't know that Bran is indifferent, but I do think he is above individual petty human concerns.  That doesn't mean that he is not concerned about humans (or the species)  as a whole though.  Also, the other part of that spoiler is the counsel itself, and frankly, I think those are AMAZING picks.  Tyrion, Bronn, Davos, and Sam.  Together, with a Bran as completely impartial overseer? 

Although,  not having a single female on that counsel feels wrong.

Other than that, this could be the best possible outcome for the majority of the souls in Westeros.

--

I agree that tropes demand a last Jamie and Brienne scene.  I still don't think she will leave Sansa unless ordered to do so.  Which?  Certainly is possible.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

ETA -- on the last page I posted a link to Freefolk that rounds up all the information about Jon possibly killing Dany into one post. 

I’ve just read and among the comments someone copied another Reddit link, from almost an year ago - the poster said Jon kills Dany; he also spoiled Sansa questioning Jon about bending the knee and Sansa asking how they would feed the Dothraki. Again, that was almost a year ago.

This crap seems more and more legit. I’so pissed and kind of hope media outlets start the whole “this crazy fan theory says Jon kills Daenerys”, so the backlash can start right now.

[glowbug]

I would be really surprised if Brienne didn’t go South regardless of where Sansa is. We know Arya goes south because of filming spoilers and Brienne is pledged to protect her too. But more than that Brienne and Jaime’s story is not over. Whether he ultimately turns away from her and runs back to Cersei, which would be particularly unsatisfying mostly because of the implications for his book counterpart, or is truly reformed and solidifies his allegiance to her (whether it’s romantic or platonic), their relationship needs to be resolved. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

4 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I’ve just read and among the comments someone copied another Reddit link, from almost an year ago - the poster said Jon kills Dany; he also spoiled Sansa questioning Jon about bending the knee and Sansa asking how they would feed the Dothraki. Again, that was almost a year ago.

This crap seems more and more legit. I’so pissed and kind of hope media outlets start the whole “this crazy fan theory says Jon kills Daenerys”, so the backlash can start right now.

Could you please link the original post? What else did he say. I think Sansa questioning Jon about kneeing to Dany was an easy guess, to be honest. I could have predicted this as well. But I'd like to know if he said other stuff that may come true. Thanks. 😄

[Raachel2008]

1 minute ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Could you please link the original post? What else did he say. I think Sansa questioning Jon about kneeing to Dany was an easy guess, to be honest. I could have predicted this as well. But I'd like to know if he said other stuff that may come true. Thanks. 😄

Here. You have to scroll down, somewhere past the middle the poster talks about Sansa questioning about how to feed the Dothraki.

[glowbug]

As for the leaks, the leaker’s source is different for the Jon/Dany spoilers than for the first three episodes. Friki has been a reliable leaker, however, his source for Tyrion’s trial is different from his source for the episodes so we can’t be certain that will come to pass. I’m not saying the Jon killing Dany spoiler isn’t true just that we can’t be certain. 

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I’ve just read and among the comments someone copied another Reddit link, from almost an year ago - the poster said Jon kills Dany; he also spoiled Sansa questioning Jon about bending the knee and Sansa asking how they would feed the Dothraki. Again, that was almost a year ago.

Neither of those things (especially the first; the show had already told us that Sansa disliked Jon bending the knee) are such difficult predictions that they take those out of the realm of guesswork.

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Why?  "Humanity" or at least having human leaders hasn't benefited the majority of the humans in this tale.  Everything they own has been destroyed, they have been killed for fun and profit since these books and show began.

Because you need effective human connection to run a government of humans.

Also, the idea of Bronn on a governing council is pretty silly.

[Umbelina]

I keep coming back to a few things.

GRRM painted the ending in broad strokes for the show producers.

GRRM writes most beautifully and touchingly about the devastation wrecked on all of the small folk by this game of thrones.  He also includes several religions, and both the good, AND the devastation they cause.

Those things considered, many of these spoilers make absolute sense to me, because I do think that group would make amazing "leaders" or "Coordinators" for the new Westeros, and I also think that having Kings or Queens continue to ruin the lives of most of the people in their lands with their avarice for money or power, and with inherited titles to boot means Westeros just continues to be a hell for most people.

In that vein, Dany must die, because she wants to be Queen above all else, wants to rule above all else, and will do anything to rule above all else.  In other words?  More of the same old same old for the poor suffering people of Westeros.

On the other hand, a coalition of leaders or something like Britain's "Commonwealth" or the USA's states and elected leaders forming a whole, does make sense for a future. 

Bran adds the factor of KNOWING all, which should settle or at least sooth the various religious rivalries.

It just all works for me, or at least, this part does.

[Smad]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Why?  "Humanity" or at least having human leaders hasn't benefited the majority of the humans in this tale.  Everything they own has been destroyed, they have been killed for fun and profit since these books and show began.

Because if you don't have any humanity you don't have any empathy. You don't care. The political system and who benefits or suffers under it doesn't concern you. The suffering or well being of the people doesn't concern you. And the 3ER has shown that he doesn't care so long as his survival is guaranteed. He lets people suffer and die so long as he profits from it, and that starts with all the people he lured North (and who died) in order to continue his existence. Which makes him the same as every other crappy ruler we have seen. Just because he is completely dispassionate when he does it makes no difference when looking at his ultimate goal. If he brings any positive change to Westeros it will not be for the benefit of the people (because he DOESN'T care about them), it will be for his benefit.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Neither of those things (especially the first; the show had already told us that Sansa disliked Jon bending the knee) are such difficult predictions that they take those out of the realm of guesswork.

Because you need effective human connection to run a government of humans.

Also, the idea of Bronn on a governing council is pretty silly.

He isn't RUNNING it though.

He is overseeing 4 very effective humans with complimentary qualities, all of whom have compassion and experience.  Tyrion, Davos, Bronn, and Sam.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Umbelina

[Raachel2008]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He isn't RUNNING it though.

He is overseeing 4 very effective humans with complimentary qualities.  Tyrion, Davos, Bronn, and Sam.

Nope, the spoilers says Bran oversees *his* council. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

Nope, the spoilers says Bran oversees *his* council. 

That could be misinterpretation, but good point!

Also, I think if there ever was a fake scene to do, Jon killing Dany would be that scene.  Fairly easy, and a huge misdirection as well.

Even so?  I do think Dany must die for Westeros people to have a chance in hell of a different kind of government.

[ShellsandCheese]

19 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Also, the idea of Bronn on a governing council is pretty silly.

Indeed. He is a mercenary. Most of the people listed make no sense. Although I did think of an interesting plot twist that could work. That being said, I think Jon and Dany's conversation at the waterfall is an important key to their future and fate. 

Quote

He is overseeing 4 very effective humans with complimentary qualities.  Tyrion, Davos, Bronn, and Sam.

Sam and Davos would be good on a council, Tyrion along with Bronn, not so much. Also, there's no way there is a council without actual representation from The North (Bran doesn't count), The Vale, The Iron Islands, Riverrun, and whatever else is left in Westeros. While some great houses were wiped out, there are still parts of the country that are tied to certain families. We also cannot forget about Dorne, Highgarden; the ruling families may be dead but there are still going to be people and someone will need to represent their interests. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I keep coming back to a few things.

GRRM painted the ending in broad strokes for the show producers.

GRRM writes most beautifully and touchingly about the devastation wrecked on all of the small folk by this game of thrones.  He also includes several religions, and both the good, AND the devastation they cause.

Those things considered, many of these spoilers make absolute sense to me, because I do think that group would make amazing "leaders" or "Coordinators" for the new Westeros, and I also think that having Kings or Queens continue to ruin the lives of most of the people in their lands with their avarice for money or power, and with inherited titles to boot means Westeros just continues to be a hell for most people.

In that vein, Dany must die, because she wants to be Queen above all else, wants to rule above all else, and will do anything to rule above all else.  In other words?  More of the same old same old for the poor suffering people of Westeros.

You can't talk about the books and then say that Dany must die. Because book!Dany doesn't want to be queen above all. Book!Dany puts off going to Westeros because she feels she has a duty in Meereen. She says a queen doesn't belong to herself, but to her people. After the 90 days ultimatum she gives to Hizdhar, she marries him. Not because she loves him, but because she feels she has to do it for peace. She'd rather be with Daario and she thinks that if he asked her to give up her crown, then she would. And she cares a great deal about the plight of the people. She goes outside the walls to take care of people who have the bloody flux.

So no, Dany must die doesn't apply.

[GraceK]

27 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

In that vein, Dany must die, because she wants to be Queen above all else, wants to rule above all else, and will do anything to rule above all else.  In other words?  More of the same old same old for the poor suffering people of Westeros.

That is not true. That is factually untrue. In the books particularly, she goes amongst the people and feeds the sick, she considers herself a mother to her people. She stayed in Meereen instead of heading to Westeros to ensure that the slaves remained free. She made many mistakes true, she isn’t perfect, but she puts the welfare of people ahead of her ambitions, as the fact that she literally fought a war to stop the AOTD before continuing her war with Cersei. Your post describes Cersei, not Dany. She told Jon that she wants to help people, but she recognizes that you can do so from a position of strength. And Bronn? On a council? Who admits for the right price he would murder a baby? He has no moral compass at all. 

17 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

You can't talk about the books and then say that Dany must die. Because book!Dany doesn't want to be queen above all. Book!Dany puts off going to Westeros because she feels she has a duty in Meereen. She says a queen doesn't belong to herself, but to her people. After the 90 days ultimatum she gives to Hizdhar, she marries him. Not because she loves him, but because she feels she has to do it for peace. She'd rather be with Daario and she thinks that if he asked her to give up her crown, then she would. And she cares a great deal about the plight of the people. She goes outside the walls to take care of people who have the bloody flux.

So no, Dany must die doesn't apply.

Thank you for this . 

Edited May 1, 2019 by GraceK

[Riplet68]

So much!  I don’t have a problem with theTarly burning. She told them what she would do, they had a choice, it’s not any different than what other leaders have done.  Kill the leaders to make followers fall online.

there is no need for the wall anymore, plus half of it’s destroyed and there is no one around to build it(maybeBran), so Jon can’t retake the black. He can however go North where his only potentially happy memories are.

maybe Qyburn sent Bronnout without Cersei’s knowledge?

Ice and Fire were brought together as prophesied.  The prince who was is supposed to unite/rule Westeros.  She referred to Stannis as that B4 learning of aowd.

i still can’t see Sansa as all that smart. She still copies mannerisms of whoever she admires at the time. The little finger stuff seems to have been solved by Bran and Arya.  To me it feels like people are taking theactresses intelligence and applying it to character.

if the jon/Dany leaks are true, D/D will have totally destroyed all character development. The last 7 seasons have shown Dany able to learn and be rational, Jon to being honorable and not interested in ruling,  Tyrion recognizing incompetence, and first aim to save his own ass. In 1 episode (or several months show time)how can it change so much?

Dany is so close to the throne now she can taste it, bout she knows not to trust Cersei in nothing now.  She knows the North doesn’t want to bend the knee-there ate solutions to that.  She always expected to marry Her brother, so Jon’s lineage shouldn’t phase her. Their love just helps strengthen the Targaryen claim (which is really what Danys real goal has been, Targaryens back in rule).

NO ONE thinks Cersei should be queen except Cersei, so anyone switching to her side makes no sense, even Tyrion.  At this point he still wants his family to survive, but he could care less if they ruled.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

9 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Sam and Davos would be good on a council, Tyrion along with Bronn, not so much. Also, there's no way there is a council without actual representation from The North (Sam doesn't count), The Vale, The Iron Islands, Riverrun, and whatever else is left in Westeros. While some great houses were wiped out, there are still parts of the country that are tied to certain families. We also cannot forget about Dorne, Highgarden; the ruling families may be dead but there are still going to be people and someone will need to represent their interests. 

Just to play devil's advocate, because I agree that it's probably a fake spoiler: Sam could be the one to represent the Reach, as Randyll Tarley became new ruler of the Reach after Olenna's death. Bran could represent the North.

Edited May 1, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn
Mixed up Vale and Reach

[BadAssRobinArryn]

23 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Here. You have to scroll down, somewhere past the middle the poster talks about Sansa questioning about how to feed the Dothraki.

He also said Brienne and Jaime were arguing in episode 1 with Jaime saying "Why do you think I'm here".

[Raachel2008]

6 minutes ago, Riplet68 said:

the jon/Dany leaks are true, D/D will have totally destroyed all character development. The last 7 seasons have shown Dany able to learn and be rational, Jon to being honorable and not interested in ruling,  Tyrion recognizing incompetence, and first aim to save his own ass. In 1 episode (or several months show time)how can it change so much?

But Jon neve wanted to rule anything and he has always been noble-ish. It is not even a character development unless you think he didn’t corrupt himself and all.

[Riplet68]

And why would Arya kill Dany?  She wasn’t even a blip on her radar, and Arya has shown she won’t kill without just cause.

OOOH....what if Cersei hires faceless men to kill Dany disguised as Jon?  That would cause all sorts of problems and send Jon into a spiral. 

[ShellsandCheese]

Just now, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Just to play devil's advocate, because I agree that it's probably a fake spoiler: Sam could be the one to represent the Vale, as Randyll Tarley became new ruler of the Vale after Olenna's death. Bran could represent the North.

I changed the North to Bran, that was a typo on my part. Although, as the overseer, wouldn't it be a conflict of interest for Bran to also represent the North? Randall Tarly was installed by the Lannisters, and now he is dead and if there is a council that means that Cersei is gone. It really wouldn't make sense for Sam to represent the Vale. Wouldn't it be Sweetrobin - does Sam even know anything about the Vale? I don't think the council works without legitimate representation from the people in those areas - otherwise, for those not represented, they'd might as well as Four Kings instead of one.

I actually like the idea of a council. Because I do think we are heading towards that in some way shape or form - parliamentary system or a commonwealth type system. What I don't like is the idea that Bran would be the overseer and who the council would consist of. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

1 minute ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I changed the North to Bran, that was a typo on my part. Although, as the overseer, wouldn't it be a conflict of interest for Bran to also represent the North? Randall Tarly was installed by the Lannisters, and now he is dead and if there is a council that means that Cersei is gone. It really wouldn't make sense for Sam to represent the Vale. Wouldn't it be Sweetrobin - does Sam even know anything about the Vale? I don't think the council works without legitimate representation from the people in those areas - otherwise, for those not represented, they'd might as well as Four Kings instead of one.

I actually like the idea of a council. Because I do think we are heading towards that in some way shape or form - parliamentary system or a commonwealth type system. What I don't like is the idea that Bran would be the overseer and who the council would consist of. 

Yeah, the part of the Vale was a mistake of my part. I already changed it. Of Course I meant the Reach. Don't know why I mixed them up, but it happens more often than I'd like to admit.

[Umbelina]

With all of the "but Dany is wonderful!" stuff, I have to say that I did enjoy Dany as a war ruler in the books, her audaciousness and clarity of purpose surprised and delighted me, as did her solutions to problems she faced, since most were so incredibly brave, from walking into the fire, to destroying the temple, and on and on.

However, the show runners have said the will do GRRM's ending (not as fleshed out, but basically the ending he plans to write someday.)

SHOW Dany and BOOK Dany are at much different places.  In the books, the stuff GRRM actually wrote, she's in a mess and a quagmire, and has shown herself to be good at war, and at death, but pretty much a failure at actual day to day leading.  It takes more than good intentions to be a good leader.

We have no idea (unless someone has a quote from GRRM somewhere?) that show Dany and book Dany travel the same path past her current mess in the books.  Say, for example, the showrunners asked GRRM what happens to Dany.  He replies that she is killed at the end by her nephew Jon, but how could he fill in very many more details, he's stuck at how to get her out of the knots he wrote which is why he said he's delayed so many books.

So? 

Show keeps Dany because she's an amazing character, and woo!  Dragons!  They write some great stuff for her, including the romance with Jon, which GRRM could have planned for, or not. 

Now we come to the end of the show.  The show runners know the "broad strokes" of the ending but not the tantalizing details of getting there. 

Presto.

The ending.

[WindyNights]

39 minutes ago, Smad said:

Because if you don't have any humanity you don't have any empathy. You don't care. The political system and who benefits or suffers under it doesn't concern you. The suffering or well being of the people doesn't concern you. And the 3ER has shown that he doesn't care so long as his survival is guaranteed. He lets people suffer and die so long as he profits from it, and that starts with all the people he lured North (and who died) in order to continue his existence. Which makes him the same as every other crappy ruler we have seen. Just because he is completely dispassionate when he does it makes no difference when looking at his ultimate goal. If he brings any positive change to Westeros it will not be for the benefit of the people (because he DOESN'T care about them), it will be for his benefit.

Isaac said that the Three Eyed Raven is above petty squabbles and on the side of humanity.

And considering the words that TheinMs wanted to hear came from Bran, he has some amount of empathy still even if he's monotone about it.

"Theon....you're a good man. Thank you."

[Umbelina]

I don't think Bronn is evil.  I think Bronn is smart, and brave.

The way Westeros is set up what options did he have, die like all the rest of the cannon fodder of the "small folk?"

He is a survivor, in a world that was set up for his failure.  In some ways, he's a bit like Littlefinger, who also raised himself up from nothing to rise in the rigged game of inherited wealth and power that is Westeros.

Bronn has shown loyalty and compassion though, along with bravery.  I'm not a fan of inherited wealth or power, so I am drawn to those who play the game without those gimmes. 

I think he would be valuable on the counsel because he understands the poor, a bit like Davos, and because he's very very smart about motivations and what might be needed to avert wars and killing.  He has none of the idiot respect for family names or Kings.  In a position of power himself, he could bring all that experience to the table, and also his wit is so quick, he could probably make them laugh if positions became entrenched.

I wonder if Rickon really dies in the books, or dies so early.  I always thought he would play an important part of this story.  Especially since he ends up on Skagos, an island which has always interested me, especially the connection to the "first men" and stories of mythical creatures.  I don't think he does die, and he may, in the end, also play a significant role after all, at least in the books.

[Wouter]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I also don't know that if the big hall meeting is a wedding celebration that it's Dany's, because the 8x04 promo has a shot of her stalking out of what looks like that same hall looking upset. Maybe she makes a big speech and while it starts off well, her other comments are less well received...? The outfit she's wearing might be the same as the one she's wearing in the battle braid shot from one of the S8 preseason promos. 

I'm wondering about Emilia's speech in a "lot of languages" that we heard about. English (well, "Common") and High Valyrian (for the Unsullied) are two languages. Are there even any Dothraki left? Because it sure looks like they were wiped out to a man.

There are Dothraki left, 8x03 showed some of them (but not many) retreating after their suicidal charge (also some horses without riders, and maybe Ghost).

As for Dany being upset when she leaves the big hall meeting - it's dangerous to draw such definitie conclusions from a trailer. You jumped to conclusions about Sansa being mean to Tyrion in 8x03, on the base of a photo, the trailer and your conceptions of the character. But it wasn't anywhere near the mark.

In another post, you mentioned that every meaningful character/plot movement has to happen in 8x04. However, there is still a long epilogue episode in which lots of things could still happen to the surviving characters. Some decisions may have to wait until the dust finally settles over KL and the Red Keep.

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

One point I've been thinking about. It strikes me a bit strange that Dany would decide like right now to march on King's Landing. Obviously I don't know if that's exactly what's happening, but it seems like it. I mean they're injured and tired, they've suffered casualties, even the dragons were injured. And they're probably all not in the best mental place right now. So "hey let's get Cersei now!" doesn't seem like the best of plans.

Agreed, those people just fought most of the night for their lives, and they had all but lost when Arya killed the NK. One would think they would hesitate to march right to another war, even if Cersei is not quite as terrifying as the NK.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The spoiler doesn't say he's the leader though, it says:  In the epilogue, Jon takes the black again for killing Dany. Arya leaves. Sansa rules the North. Bran oversees his council of Tyrion, Davos, Sam, and Bronn. 

People place far too much stock in those supposed leaks or spoilers (hey, we don't even fully trust Friki's leaks). The one who correctly predicted that Arya would kill the NK also stated that the info about Jon and Dany was thirdhand (while his accurate info came secondhand from family present at the shoot - this family member only heard about the supposed Dany-Jon scene, so hearsay), and may well be incorrect.

It's unlikely that D&D would allow such a spoilery scene to be shot in front of extras, when they could easily write it so that it would happen in private. It's also looking like false scenes may have been shot, or at least HBO is trying very hard to give that impression as more and more actors seem to mention it.

Moreover, some of those leaks could have been planted by HBO. Have them posted on Reddit by unknown/untrusted sources, so few take it seriously before the episode airs for which they give legitimate info. Until someone notices their predictions were correct, and  any info on further episodes is now apparently trusted. HBO could make a play on this, by giving out some correct info for 8x03 and wrong info on 8x05, for example.

I also doubt all those leaks for 8x03 were really correct, as claimed. For example, take what was mentioned above (Reddit post from 8 months ago):

"I don’t work in marketing, so I don’t know about a teaser. I know Jon and Sansa argue in front of the northern lords about Jon bending the knee and who commands the troops and if they have to feed the Dothrake."

Jon and Sansa did argue about bending the knee, but not in front of the northern lords, and the discussion about food centered on the dragons rather than the Dothraki, specifically. I don't recall any discussion about who is in command. So, somewhat close but no cigar.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Wouter

[toomuchtv47]

I may be remembering incorrectly, but isn't Bronn still on his way to kill Jamie and Tyrion as per Cersei's orders? If he were to get to Winterfell and tell them why he was there, would the brothers still be as loyal to their sister?

[SeanC]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Bronn is evil.  I think Bronn is smart, and brave.

The way Westeros is set up what options did he have, die like all the rest of the cannon fodder of the "small folk?"

He is a survivor, in a world that was set up for his failure.  In some ways, he's a bit like Littlefinger, who also raised himself up from nothing to rise in the rigged game of inherited wealth and power that is Westeros.

Bronn has shown loyalty and compassion though, along with bravery.  I'm not a fan of inherited wealth or power, so I am drawn to those who play the game without those gimmes. 

Where did Bronn ever show loyalty or compassion?  The whole point of his character is that he works for whoever pays him.

He admitted he'd kill a baby if they price was right.  That's evil.  Bronn himself is generally not malicious, but he's amoral, fundamentally, which is not something I'd particularly want in government, let alone from somebody notionally meant to represent ordinary people's concerns (which he's never shown any interest in).

[nikma]

I think Dany will find out that Gendry is Robert's son and she will also know that Jon knew and never told her. 

[ShellsandCheese]

5 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think Dany will find out that Gendry is Robert's son and she will also know that Jon knew and never told her. 

I don’t think she would care, I don’t think anyone would care outside of Cersei, because it would mean she failed to get rid of all of Robert’s bastard children. Truthfully, I think Robert’s rule was an epic failure. He lasted about a decade and a half and everything went to shit when he died. A lot of that is due to things he did and issues he didn’t resolve. And his utter stupidity when it came to the family he married into. 

[Umbelina]

16 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Where did Bronn ever show loyalty or compassion?  The whole point of his character is that he works for whoever pays him.

He admitted he'd kill a baby if they price was right.  That's evil.  Bronn himself is generally not malicious, but he's amoral, fundamentally, which is not something I'd particularly want in government, let alone from somebody notionally meant to represent ordinary people's concerns (which he's never shown any interest in).

The other "Kings" and so called noble people have killed thousands of babies.  IIRC, Tywin deliberately ordered his men to kill every breathing person, man, woman or child during his quests for power, for just one example.  Many more have died by starvation in this "game" of thrones, or simply because Cersei might want more money for jewels, or from Dany's quest for power.

He did say it would have to be a very high price.  😉

I think he's shown a lot of character, and yes, compassion, but that hasn't been his ruling emotion, because his desire is survival, and that means money, since his particular sperm and egg weren't "royal."

I just think he'd balance that counsel.

Again, all of this is just spec in case the spoilers are true.  Mixed with a bit of "I hope they are."  I love the idea of no more Kings or Queens devastating the majority of the people simply to hold those titles, or because they think it's DUE to them.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Umbelina

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

The other "Kings" and so called noble people have killed thousands of babies.  IIRC, Tywin deliberately ordered his men to kill every breathing person, man, woman or child during his quests for power, for just one example.

Nobody would cite Tywin as a beacon of morality.  If the idea of this council is that it's a great improvement on what came before, somebody like Bronn has no place on it.

Quote

I think he's shown a lot of character, and yes, compassion

Where?