Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I do agree on Jon. I don't think he would want to rule/lead and, I doubt he'd be comfortable usurping Dany's birthright...even if he's entitled to it.

To be honest, I'm mostly curious about how Dany reacts to the news. So much of her identity/mission has been to reclaim her throne. The idea that it isn't hers to claim has to throw her for a loop.

Honestly, I think her first reaction will be that she will think that Jon knew all along, and it was a plan to take her army and stake his own claim to the throne.  Than, after she has a minute to think and a few people talk her down, she'll realize that Jon isn't that kind of person and that he probably needs her support right now.  If we got a 12-13 episode season I would be money that this would go on for about 2 episodes before she comes around.  Sine we're only getting 6, I suspect she'll come full circle in the same ep.

I think the arc that will carry over 2 eps will be that she won't care that they are Aunt and Uncle, but Jon will.  He will push her away. Then it will come out that she is pregnant, so he will push aside his own disgust and offer to marry her because he won't want his child to be a bastard.

[Happy Harpy]

If Sam blurted everything in front of the assembly, it would be kind of funny if it went on like this:

Sam *certain the Northerners will get behind his idea*: Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, the true heir, let's depose Daenerys and you'll have a Northern king!

Northerners *horrified, still TSTL*: He's a Targaryen! Southrons go home! Ban them both, and their dragons!

Sam *"sorry wifey, need to see the library" face*: Whoopsies...

Edited April 10, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[Ravenya003]

4 hours ago, Minneapple said:

What the hell could be spoiled by a braid in Sansa's hair?

It reminded me of that interview with Emilia Clarke in which she's joking about the reception that Sansa and Arya give her at Winterfell:

"And so I need to be like: 'Can I braid your hair, Sansa? Little Arya, come over here, let's play some cricket.' So there's that. And then, very, very quickly, it's like: 'Wait, is it just me, or do they hate me?'"

This wouldn't be the first time Sansa's hair has been used to demonstrate her alliances, as she's adopted the hairstyles of Catlyn, Cersei and Margaery throughout different points of the show. So maybe at some point we'll see her with Dany's braids? (Okay, it's a reach, but I found it interesting that both actresses casually drop the subject of hair-braiding into their interviews).

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Why wouldn't he? He knows, loves, trusts and respects Jon. He also knows that Jon is the legitimate heir and, having Jon Snow, King in the North as both a Targ and a Stark will go a long way with the Northern Lords. Theon would probably jump ship to King Jon over Queen Dany as well

On the other hand Dany has Dragons, Unsullied and Dothraki in her favor. If they know Jon can ride a dragon that would probably tips the scales in his favor.

So Jon betrays his oath to serve Dany and the Northerns who are about to die with their 10,000 soldiers get to decide who rules Westeros. Why on earth would Dany, her armies, and dragons agree to this? Dany would be a fool to give up all her power and claim to the Iron Throne because a man and a bunch of losers demand it.

 

It is like in Captain Marvel, when Yon-Rogg tells Carole to prove herself by fighting without her powers in their final confrontation.

 Ridiculous.

I don't foresee anything like this happening on the show, but if it does, I will scream in frustration.

Here is my scenario: Dany demands Jon keep his oath to serve her, gives up his claim to the Iron Throne, and marries her to seal their alliance. This probably won't happen either so the show will find a happy medium where they agree to marry and rule together.

Edited April 10, 2019 by SimoneS

[bubble sparkly]

I can understand why Sam would prefer Jon on the IT, just like Missandei would prefer Dany etc. However if Sam blurts out Jon’s parentage to other people without Jon’s consent I think that makes him an asshole and a shitty friend. It’s extra stupid when the AOTD are on their way and there is really no time to be playing political games.

[tangerine95]

I can totally see Sam publicly revealing Jon's parentage because I don't believe Jon will do what Sam wants and try and get Dany to bend the knee.If they already decided to make him that upset over Dickon,it's imo probably so he'll be the one to push the rightful heir thing since Jon isn't the type to.I never would have thought Sam would do that but after that interview where John Bradley says Sam can be manipulative when he thinks he's right and he's done it before to Jon,it sort of makes sense tbh.

Edited April 10, 2019 by tangerine95

[Happy Harpy]

10 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I can understand why Sam would prefer Jon on the IT, just like Missandei would prefer Dany etc. However if Sam blurts out Jon’s parentage to other people without Jon’s consent I think that makes him an asshole and a shitty friend. It’s extra stupid when the AOTD are on their way and there is really no time to be playing political games.

It would set him up as a kind of antagonist, and it could bring him more "heartbreak". I don't remember a character who played against Jon or Daenerys, and who didn't pay it one way or another.

I hope that Sam will remember his conversation with Aemon and what he read about Daenerys. They had a sweet relationship, it would be nice if it allowed him to wake up.

This interview makes Arya and Sansa sound like immature mean girls. https://tvline.com/2019/04/09/game-of-thrones-season-8-arya-sansa-sophie-turner-interview/

Maisie: "We finally managed to scrape our family back together somewhat, minus Jon.” Her character didn't mind that Jon was a bastard, but that he has a GF means he isn't part of the family?

Sophie: “If your name ain’t Stark, you ain’t getting in.” Nice to know that Regina Sansa meant "You're a Stark to me" so much two seasons ago.

Let's hope it's their interpretation and I'll end up happy they don't write for the show, LOL.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If the words "political marriage" don't immediately follow (from someone savvy) I'd be shocked because that would be my first suggestion.

I wouldn't be shocked, because:

-Dany dropped Daario so that she could be free for a political marriage in Westeros, Jon is an eligible bachelor looking for an alliance

-oh-so-clever Tyrion noticed Jon looking longingly at Daenerys (in the same episode they talked about her succession), no-nonsense Davos noticed Jon looking at her good heart in S7

-LF mentioned the possibility to Sansa

but

even in 8x01, even before anyone knows they're related (as if it mattered for ruling Westeros, LOL) no one even thinks of suggesting it.

So I guess it will come up when Plot decides it's time.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[GraceK]

36 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

It would set him up as a kind of antagonist, and it could bring him more "heartbreak". I don't remember a character who played against Jon or Daenerys, and who didn't pay it one way or another.

I hope that Sam will remember his conversation with Aemon and what he read about Daenerys. They had a sweet relationship, it would be nice if it allowed him to wake up.

This interview makes Arya and Sansa sound like immature mean girls. https://tvline.com/2019/04/09/game-of-thrones-season-8-arya-sansa-sophie-turner-interview/

Maisie: "We finally managed to scrape our family back together somewhat, minus Jon.” Her character didn't mind that Jon was a bastard, but that he has a GF means he isn't part of the family?

Sophie: “If your name ain’t Stark, you ain’t getting in.” Nice to know that Regina Sansa meant "You're a Stark to me" so much two seasons ago.

Let's hope it's their interpretation and I'll end up happy they don't write for the show, LOL.

Sounds a lot like Cersei season 1::

” Anyone who isn’t us is an enemy”.

Interesting if it’s the Starks who become the villains at the end, and the Targaryens the hero’s 😆

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

 So Jon betrays his oath to serve Dany and the Northerns who are about to die with their 10,000 soldiers get to decide who rules Westeros. 

The original statement was about Sam not Jon.  My reply was about Sam not, Jon.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Happy Harpy]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Sounds a lot like Cersei season 1::

” Anyone who isn’t us is an enemy”.

Interesting if it’s the Starks who become the villains at the end, and the Targaryens the hero’s 😆

LOL. OTOH it does seem to me that the writers set out to establish Daenerys as an underdog; in a way like in S1 and in spite of her power. She arrives with good intentions and good will, yet everyone gives her the cold shoulder (at best) and not only she doesn't wash her hands of them, she stays quite gracious as far as we know yet. It seems unfair, and made to gain the audience's sympathy.

I don't know what they're thinking with "the Starks", Arya especially (she reads faces, she has to know that Political!Dany is BS) but again, I hope it plays better onscreen than how PR makes it sound.

[GraceK]

9 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

LOL. OTOH it does seem to me that the writers set out to establish Daenerys as an underdog; in a way like in S1 and in spite of her power. She arrives with good intentions and good will, yet everyone gives her the cold shoulder (at best) and not only she doesn't wash her hands of them, she stays quite gracious as far as we know yet. It seems unfair, and made to gain the audience's sympathy.

I don't know what they're thinking with "the Starks", Arya especially (she reads faces, she has to know that Political!Dany is BS) but again, I hope it plays better onscreen than how PR makes it sound.

In a way this makes me happy. Dany has been getting shit for seasons for being overpowered and entitled and using her dragons for protection. You know, if Jon had taken the advice of  Melissandre and kept Ghost with him, he wouldn’t have gotten murdered. Dany is just smart enough to use her dragons for her advantage.  Now that she is  gonna be soft and vulnerable and it’s the Starks and the northerners who are gonna be assholes when she’s doing her best to save them, it just validates every  Dany fan who has always seen her as a heroic figure and IMO makes her survival even more likely. 😊🔥🔥🔥🔥

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

In a way this makes me happy. Dany has been getting shit for seasons for being overpowered and entitled and using her dragons for protection. You know, if Jon had taken the advice of  Melissandre and kept Ghost with him, he wouldn’t have gotten murdered. Dany is just smart enough to use her dragons for her advantage.  Now that she is  gonna be soft and vulnerable and it’s the Starks and the northerners who are gonna be assholes when she’s doing her best to save them, it just validates every  Dany fan who has always seen her as a heroic figure and IMO makes her survival even more likely. 😊🔥🔥🔥🔥

In a way it makes me happy, because I agree, that late in the game it's a good sign.

OTOH, it's traditionally only acceptable for women to be soft and vulnerable, vs confident and assertive. The only traditionnally acceptable face of strength for women in resilience. Hence, it also kind of annoys me quite much if the writers resort to soft/vulnerable/resilient (vs insults) for the head of the biggest military power in Westeros. Dany has always allied the traditionally masculine figures of the conqueror/the savior to traditionally feminine traits, and I loved the kick in the balls of all those sexist clichés like "real girls don't wear skirts". So it would annoy me even more if this balance was broken.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[Friendly kitty]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

This probably won't happen either so the show will find a happy medium where they agree to marry and rule together.

I doubt very much that they will marry and rule together. That would be too sweet a happy ending. Not in the style of GoT I think John will die, but Danу will live, rule and raise John's child.

59 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Dany has always allied the traditionally masculine figures of the conqueror/the savior to traditionally feminine traits, and I loved the kick in the balls of all those sexist clichés like "real girls don't wear skirts". So it would annoy me even more if this balance was broken.

I also want it to be so. The balance between femininity and masculinity Danу should not disappear. This is what is considered the most attractive in heroin ...

Edited April 10, 2019 by Friendly kitty

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I can totally see Sam publicly revealing Jon's parentage because I don't believe Jon will do what Sam wants and try and get Dany to bend the knee.If they already decided to make him that upset over Dickon,it's imo probably so he'll be the one to push the rightful heir thing since Jon isn't the type to.I never would have thought Sam would do that but after that interview where John Bradley says Sam can be manipulative when he thinks he's right and he's done it before to Jon,it sort of makes sense tbh.

In his mind Sam is doing the right thing.  Honorable men don't hide the truth unless it means certain death for innocents - that's not an issue here.  To use a favorite modern phrase, there should be full transparency.  After all, the people deserve to know all of the facts before making up their mind.  Can't have people in power hiding facts from everyone else just because they think they know better. 

By the way, I think Sam blurting everything out in public is idiotic but I could see him rationalizing the decision very easily.  Then the enemy will show up and bitching about who should be in charge will become irrelevant.  Sure, the White Walkers are trying to kill everyone but at least they know who their boss is.

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

This interview makes Arya and Sansa sound like immature mean girls. https://tvline.com/2019/04/09/game-of-thrones-season-8-arya-sansa-sophie-turner-interview/

Maisie: "We finally managed to scrape our family back together somewhat, minus Jon.” Her character didn't mind that Jon was a bastard, but that he has a GF means he isn't part of the family?

Sophie: “If your name ain’t Stark, you ain’t getting in.” Nice to know that Regina Sansa meant "You're a Stark to me" so much two seasons ago.

Let's hope it's their interpretation and I'll end up happy they don't write for the show, LOL.

I think Maisie and Sophie tend to troll a lot when they do joint interviews and egg each other on to say outrageous things. Maisie's "I think Arya is asexual" comment was made during a Maisie/Sophie interview, and we now know thanks to 8x01 spoilers that Gendry and Arya have a cute, flirty interaction possibly setting up a future relationship...a scene which also puts the lie to this whole idea of Arya distrusting anyone who isn't a Stark, since Arya obviously trusts Gendry enough to ask him to make a weapon for her.

To be fair, this quote could also apply to Sansa and Arya's attitudes towards Tyrion (and Jaime, when he shows up), although I haven't seen anything in the spoilers about Tyrion and Arya speaking to each other. And while we don't know all that much about the Sansa/Tyrion scene, Sansa seems to trust Tyrion enough to be alone with him to hear him out about Cersei, which frankly is not nothing given their history.

6 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

LOL. OTOH it does seem to me that the writers set out to establish Daenerys as an underdog; in a way like in S1 and in spite of her power. She arrives with good intentions and good will, yet everyone gives her the cold shoulder (at best) and not only she doesn't wash her hands of them, she stays quite gracious as far as we know yet. It seems unfair, and made to gain the audience's sympathy.

Yes, as far as we know--and episode spoilers written by someone else can get garbled in translation--the writing seems designed to make Dany look sympathetic and Sansa and the Northerners like the unreasonable ones. (Emilia used a Meet the Parents comparison, and in that movie the in-laws were acting like assholes while the protagonist trying to win them over was the sympathetic one.)

Edited April 10, 2019 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

In a way this makes me happy. Dany has been getting shit for seasons for being overpowered and entitled and using her dragons for protection. You know, if Jon had taken the advice of  Melissandre and kept Ghost with him, he wouldn’t have gotten murdered. Dany is just smart enough to use her dragons for her advantage.  Now that she is  gonna be soft and vulnerable and it’s the Starks and the northerners who are gonna be assholes when she’s doing her best to save them, it just validates every  Dany fan who has always seen her as a heroic figure and IMO makes her survival even more likely. 😊🔥🔥🔥🔥

Dany is a foreign invader who believes that the native populations of Westeros lost their right to govern themselves when Aegon conquered them and that they had no right to decide that her father's madness made Targaryen rule unacceptable. She'll put up with an episode or three of grumpiness - and then she'll win, and the North will again have to abandon its independence. So maybe their suffering will be somewhat bigger and more lasting than hers, and a bit more deserving of compassion than it's currently getting from the fandom? She burned the Tarlys not for any crimes they had committed against innocents or in violation of their duties, but because they refused to admit that her rule was legitimate. She's only saving the North in order to rule it.

It's a feature of the fantasy genre that it's just not that deep - above all, it's a power fantasy that's mixed with nostalgia. So Dany gets some white savior backlash when she's in Essos and readers try to turn the dull eastern escapades among POVless natives into some kind of commentary on imperialist misadventures, but now that she's moved on to the North, the locals are assholes for not being happy that an invader's help with a potentially continent-spanning catastrophe will mean losing their freedom? Since the series is clearly not going to address any of real issues here, I expect we will only get a few petty squabbles and Dany roasting zombies will solve everything.

GOT is all about rooting for your fave to win. When Dany is in the best position to do just that, surely she can endure a few whacks at her belief that she has a right to rule Westeros simply because her ancestor showed up with bigger weapons and ended ancient lines for refusing to bend the knee. Today the fantasy genre is just about the only acceptable place for such imperialism yay because it offers all the adventure and epic pluckiness of those narratives while remaining free of the need to consider what it actually meant for local populations to be smashed together and ruled by a foreigner. When Dany fights the NK she can be heroic in an uncomplicated way no non-fantasy conqueror can ever match, and so she'll get to regain lost territories while viewers tweet their approval and boo the Northern lords for not being worthy of her. I hope the show moves on to the fun yay part as soon as possible so that I can watch zombie vs. dragon battles and speculate how Cersei will be defeated/whether Tyrion will be a traitor instead of having to point out that Dany is in the sucky imperialism nay phase when she thinks just showing up ought to make the people of Westeros submit to her right to tell them what to do because of her flying nukes and superior breeding.

[SimoneS]

8 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The original statement was about Sam not Jon.  My reply was about Sam not, Jon.

Fair enough. I am commenting to results of Sam's behavior. He is expecting that Jon will betray his oath to Dany. This is the crux of what Sam is attempting to here. 

Edited April 10, 2019 by SimoneS

[anamika]

41 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

She'll put up with an episode or three of grumpiness - and then she'll win, and the North will again have to abandon its independence. So maybe their suffering will be somewhat bigger and more lasting than hers, and a bit more deserving of compassion than it's currently getting from the fandom?

Did Ned Stark and the North suffer under Robert Baratheon's rule for 15 years? If not, then why do you think they will suffer under Dany's?

41 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

When Dany is in the best position to do just that, surely she can endure a few whacks at her belief that she has a right to rule Westeros simply because her ancestor showed up with bigger weapons and ended ancient lines for refusing to bend the knee. Today the fantasy genre is just about the only acceptable place for such imperialism yay because it offers all the adventure and epic pluckiness of those narratives while remaining free of the need to consider what it actually meant for local populations to be smashed together and ruled by a foreigner.

Dany is a foreigner? I can understand she's seen that way in the xenophobic North and generally in Westeros, but was she not born in Dragonstone?

And if you support the natives wanting freedom, would you also agree that all the Northern houses should also be free of the authority of House Stark? And that Ned Umber and Alys Karstark should not be forced to bend the Knee to the Starks under the threat of losing their ancestral home and lands?

And that the Starks were wrong to wage war against the Boltons when pretty much most of the Northern houses had supported the Boltons against the Starks? I mean, what right does Sansa have to Winterfell and the North other than her ancestors killed and massacred and subjugated other houses till they reigned supreme. Ned/Robb lost and the current rulers of the 7K gave the North to the Boltons. If Dany is a foreigner with no rights to the 7K, the Starks should also have accepted their defeats and moved on.

These are also topics that should be explored along with Dany's subjugation of the native population. But the Stark's subjugation of the North and the feudalism of the 7K  seem to be accepted along with Dany's imperialism in this fantasy genre because of the approaching zombies.

So maybe at the end, if the show is really an exploration of power, then we will see ALL forms of power challenged. Not just the Iron Throne - but also the houses in charge of the individual kingdoms. Do the current leaders of House Stark - who are worrying about petty politics when the AOTD is marching on the North - deserve to be in charge of the North?

Edited April 10, 2019 by anamika

[Advance35]

Quote

Dany is a foreign invader who believes that the native populations of Westeros lost their right to govern themselves when Aegon conquered them and that they had no right to decide that her father's madness made Targaryen rule unacceptable. She'll put up with an episode or three of grumpiness - and then she'll win, and the North will again have to abandon its independence. So maybe their suffering will be somewhat bigger and more lasting than hers, and a bit more deserving of compassion than it's currently getting from the fandom? She burned the Tarlys not for any crimes they had committed against innocents or in violation of their duties, but because they refused to admit that her rule was legitimate. She's only saving the North in order to rule it.

It's a feature of the fantasy genre that it's just not that deep - above all, it's a power fantasy that's mixed with nostalgia. So Dany gets some white savior backlash when she's in Essos and readers try to turn the dull eastern escapades among POVless natives into some kind of commentary on imperialist misadventures, but now that she's moved on to the North, the locals are assholes for not being happy that an invader's help with a potentially continent-spanning catastrophe will mean losing their freedom? Since the series is clearly not going to address any of real issues here, I expect we will only get a few petty squabbles and Dany roasting zombies will solve everything.

GOT is all about rooting for your fave to win. When Dany is in the best position to do just that, surely she can endure a few whacks at her belief that she has a right to rule Westeros simply because her ancestor showed up with bigger weapons and ended ancient lines for refusing to bend the knee. Today the fantasy genre is just about the only acceptable place for such imperialism yay because it offers all the adventure and epic pluckiness of those narratives while remaining free of the need to consider what it actually meant for local populations to be smashed together and ruled by a foreigner. When Dany fights the NK she can be heroic in an uncomplicated way no non-fantasy conqueror can ever match, and so she'll get to regain lost territories while viewers tweet their approval and boo the Northern lords for not being worthy of her. I hope the show moves on to the fun yay part as soon as possible so that I can watch zombie vs. dragon battles and speculate how Cersei will be defeated/whether Tyrion will be a traitor instead of having to point out that Dany is in the sucky imperialism nay phase when she thinks just showing up ought to make the people of Westeros submit to her right to tell them what to do because of her flying nukes and superior breeding.

Your entire post is exquisite.  I'm hand waving away Dany (and Jon), I'm more interested in how the real characters in the story, react to them. 

I consider Dany more of a swan event (similar to the AOD) then a character.  Like an earthquake or a plague, how will the characters face it or deal with it's fallout.   Cersei, Jaimie, Sansa, Varys, where will they all wind up when all is said and done.  That's where the Season 8 Suspense is. 

Though I admit to an automatic affinity for anyone that doesn't become "enchanted" with Dany.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think Maisie and Sophie tend to troll a lot when they do joint interviews and egg each other on to say outrageous things.  [...]

(Emilia used a Meet the Parents comparison, and in that movie the in-laws were acting like assholes while the protagonist trying to win them over was the sympathetic one.)

Indeed, if it was only Maisie and Sophie I wouldn't pay attention; it's also why I still think/hope it will come off better onscreen. It's the fact that Emilia has talked about her character wondering if Jon's sisters hate her or what which worries me, because AFAIK she doesn't troll.

Maybe the goal is for the audience to not feel too sorry for the Starks when they lose WF? Honestly, if Frikidoctor and BSB didn't both say that Sophie filmed in Seville, I'd still be at least 50/50 over Sansa dying in 8x03, since among the main characters, she's the symbol of petty politics over real threat. (Yes, so is Cersei, but Cersei is nuts).

17 minutes ago, anamika said:

Do the leaders of House Stark - who are worrying about petty politics when the AOTD is marching on the North - deserve to be in charge of the North?

At this point and in terms of seeing the big picture, out of the "Starks by name" the more deserving of ruling would be Bran, LOL. I miss the good old times of my "Bran and Meera Lord and Lady of WF" campaign. Meera would have been so awesome in the role, yet she's probably going to end like the Blackfish with some "she died fighting" mention, if she's mentioned at all. Sigh.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[BadAssRobinArryn]

It doesn't matter if Dany is a foreigner or not. The important part is a.) that she's unknown to them and b.) her father killed prominent members of the North, wo may even have been friends to these Northern Lords. And now she returns on their doorstep using the same weapons her father once used. 

And by the way, I don't think that Dany is like her father. I think that (while having her flaws like everyone does) she is generally a fair and, as far as it is possible in her situation, even compassionate person. But the Northern Lords don't know this, so that they don't embrace her at once is just human.   

This is also where IMO the comparison to the situation between the Boltons and the Starks falls flat. The Boltons have commited outrageous crimes, and this is no secret. The North had good reasons to get rid of them that are unrelated to Jon and Sansa.

And then one can't deny that Aerys was not the first Targaryen who was clearly mad. Their history is more enigmatic but also more bloody than the Starks'. Even if we all agree that Dany is no great danger, we don't know who comes after her and Jon. All that imbreeding didn't go by without consequences, and Jon and Dany are related as well.

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

This is also where IMO the comparison to the situation between the Boltons and the Starks falls flat. The Boltons have commited outrageous crimes, and this is no secret. The North had good reasons to get rid of them that are unrelated to Jon and Sansa.

“The North” didn’t get rid of the Boltons, though — they overwhelmingly told the Starks to buzz off.  The Starks reconquered the North with Arryn knights and Wildling raiders, and a smattering of locals.

[anamika]

26 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

It doesn't matter if Dany is a foreigner or not. The important part is a.) that she's unknown to them and b.) her father killed prominent members of the North, wo may even have been friends to these Northern Lords. And now she returns on their doorstep using the same weapons her father once used. 

She returns with Jon who has made a deal with her. It's not about trusting Dany. It's about trusting the guy who they elected King. It's about Arya trusting in Jon as a person. We already know that Sansa does not think too much of Jon. But I would think Faceless Man, reader of emotions Arya and the 3ER Bran would trust in their brother.

And why do they think Dany has come North now with her dragons, soldiers and dragon glass weapons? To burn them all like her father? Would this not be disproved within two seconds of meeting her - after she does not madly burn them all with her dragons?

They would be utter morons to think Dany has come to attack them.  She could have already done it instead of sitting in their great hall.  Is that what you are saying? That they are all morons?

Quote

This is also where IMO the comparison to the situation between the Boltons and the Starks falls flat. The Boltons have commited outrageous crimes, and this is no secret. The North had good reasons to get rid of them that are unrelated to Jon and Sansa.

The North did not want to get rid of the Boltons. They supported the Boltons. The Umbers gave Rickon to Ramsay and Karstark fought with them and the rest of the houses sat it out. Jon killed these leaders of the houses because they supported the Boltons. Their children - a 10 year old kid - was threatened with the loss of his home unless he bend the knee. What outrageous crimes did 10 year old Ned Umber do?

If all this is acceptable feudalism, then what is the problem with Dany's feudalism? Why is it one rule for the Starks and another for Dany?

Only Mormont supported house Stark - and she did it for Jon because of the AOTD threat. And Jon has now made a deal with Dany and brought help to defeat this threat. So why would Lyanna not be open to this help?

26 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

And then one can't deny that Aerys was not the first Targaryen who was clearly mad. Their history is more enigmatic but also more bloody than the Starks'.

The Starks have a pretty bloody history. Look it up. They were not so nice people.

Edited April 10, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Indeed, if it was only Maisie and Sophie I wouldn't pay attention; it's also why I still think/hope it will come off better onscreen. It's the fact that Emilia has talked about her character wondering if Jon's sisters hate her or what which worries me, because AFAIK she doesn't troll.

Emilia doesn't troll, but she doesn't spoil, either. She wouldn't be talking about this big tension or conflict if it mattered at all beyond the first two or so episodes, which I doubt it will. There's already setup in 8x01 for things to be smoothed over, with Jon asking Arya to assist him with Sansa (and Arya not turning him down as far as I can tell).

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Honestly, if Frikidoctor and BSB didn't both say that Sophie filmed in Seville, I'd still be at least 50/50 over Sansa dying in 8x03, since among the main characters, she's the symbol of petty politics over real threat. (Yes, so is Cersei, but Cersei is nuts).

I really doubt Sophie would get a "pack survives" tattoo if her character dies. We do know that Sophie missed a lot of the filming in 2018, since she skipped the bulk of the night shoots (which took three months) and also skipped all of the KL set exterior filming (which took close to three months as well). That's the better part of two, maybe three episodes right there (8x03, 8x05 and 8x06), and two big sequences (the Winterfell battle and the KL streets stuff) that Sansa won't be a part of. That doesn't mean she won't have a storyline, but I do wonder what sort of storyline she'll have. 

Sophie filmed some Winterfell set stuff (late January, mid/late February), possibly a Dubrovnik scene in February, the Stark crypts promo in late March, something in mid-April in Belfast (her last Belfast scenes), a single 8x06 scene in May in Seville, and that's it. I wonder if Sansa is going to bow out early and pop up for the revelation of Tyrion's treason and Tyrion's trial in 8x06. If Winterfell falls and the survivors scatter, maybe Sansa hangs out in the Riverlands or the Vale for the last few episodes.

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At this point and in terms of seeing the big picture, out of the "Stark by name" the more deserving of ruling would be Bran, LOL. 

I tend to agree with @anamika that I just don't see Sansa as the endgame Lady of Winterfell at all, but personally I don't see the setup for Arya or Bran as endgame Lady/Lord of Winterfell in the show. It would seem random to me, depending of course on the writing in S8.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I tend to agree with @anamika that I just don't see Sansa as the endgame Lady of Winterfell at all, but personally I don't see the setup for Arya or Bran as endgame Lady/Lord of Winterfell in the show. It would seem random to me, depending of course on the writing in S8.

Maybe Dany takes revenge on the Stark "mean girls" by kicking them out of WF and naming Alice Karstark LOW and WOTN in the finale lol?

One of the things I find a bit weird when considering Sansa's endgame is that she has been LOW since the end of s6.  So if her endgame is to be LOW, it seems kind of underwhelming since she would have effectively achieved her endgame 2 seasons before the finale.  I guess Sansa could be named Warden and get a promotion of sorts, but she was essentially acting Warden in s7 when Jon was gone so again it's a bit "same old".

Alternatively, I can't think of any other endgame Sansa could have apart from a last minute marriage to Tyrion (if the trial thing is fake) or Robin etc.  However, Sansa doesn't appear to currently have any desire to be married again, so D&D would need to either show her falling in love or show her deciding to enter into a political marriage for whatever reason.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

37 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Honestly, if Frikidoctor and BSB didn't both say that Sophie filmed in Seville, I'd still be at least 50/50 over Sansa dying in 8x03, since among the main characters, she's the symbol of petty politics over real threat.  

Is she, though? She surely helps preparing Winterfell for winter, ordering everybody to bring food etc. At least in this regard she has the bigger picture in mind, which is something Cersei doesn't have at all. I even read that Sansa ordered Ned Umber to return and he doesn't want to, though I don't know if this was a real spoiler or just someone theorizing.  

And also, it's not like we have any spoilers that she is scheming against Dany or anything like this. She is definitely unhappy and probably angry having Dany around, but at least as far as we know she also seems to accept it grudgingly (maybe very grudgingly). This is IMO not putting petty politics over real threat. Though to be fair, we don't yet know what she does once she'll learn that Jon is the true Targaryen heir. And Sansa is definitely right about Cersei.

With that being said, I always thought a Stark child would die when Winterfell is destroyed, because it is symbolically Fitting. And I never expected it to be Arya, which doesn't leave many options. Therefore I was surprised that they all seem to be around in the later episodes, but maybe Theon is fulfilling that part as one of the "Children of Winterfell" dying, when it is destroyed. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

And also, we shouldn't forget that Cersei is a very real threat as well. She is just as deadly and dangerous as the Night King is. Just ask the Tyrells. 😀

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe Dany takes revenge on the Stark "mean girls" by kicking them out of WF and naming Alice Karstark LOW and WOTN in the finale lol?

I doubt it, but hee. The actress who plays Alys posted a photo of Instagram taken with two of the wildling extras, so maybe as in the books Alys hooks up with a wildling.

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One of the things I find a bit weird when considering Sansa's endgame is that she has been LOW since the end of s6.  So if her endgame is to be LOW, it seems kind of underwhelming since she would have effectively achieved her endgame 2 seasons before the finale.  I guess Sansa could be named Warden and get a promotion of sorts, but she was essentially acting Warden in s7 when Jon was gone so again it's a bit "same old".

I agree. Bryan Cogman recently warned that Sansa's story isn't over yet, but as far as I can tell, it kind of is.

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Alternatively, I can't think of any other endgame Sansa could have apart from a last minute marriage to Tyrion (if the trial thing is fake) or Robin etc.  However, Sansa doesn't appear to currently have any desire to be married again, so D&D would need to either show her falling in love or show her deciding to enter into a political marriage for whatever reason.

Yeah, and Michele Clapton has been pretty emphatic about the whole point of Sansa's costuming (tight, restrictive) being that no one can ever touch her again. She's wearing a leather breastplate tunic that makes her look like an Unsullied in one of the S8 stills: message received. And even assuming she wanted to marry again, why would she give up Winterfell to be Lady of the Vale or of Casterly Rock? The only answer I can think of is "For love," and I don't see Sansa falling in love with Tyrion or Robin in the space of five episodes (four episodes, if we assume there won't be many opportunities for romance in 8x03).

Also, from an arc perspective, Sansa shedding her illusions about the south, marriage and love and winning back her ancestral home at great price, achieving independence and a certain measure of freedom, only to give it all up and run off to play adoring wifey to this or that great lord in the south, seems like it would be a big step backwards for her.

Sophie did say that Sansa is not looking for romance and is only interested in falling in love with herself, which could be trolling (Mophie interview) but also sounds quite plausible. I guess that doesn't necessarily exclude Sansa falling in love in spite of herself or whatever, but again, with four episodes, I don't see Sansa making that transformation so quickly.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

It doesn't matter if Dany is a foreigner or not. The important part is a.) that she's unknown to them and b.) her father killed prominent members of the North, wo may even have been friends to these Northern Lords. And now she returns on their doorstep using the same weapons her father once used. 

Not to mention she's bringing 2 different varieties of foreign army with her, as least one of which has a Mongol horde-like reputation.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Emilia doesn't troll, but she doesn't spoil, either. She wouldn't be talking about this big tension or conflict if it mattered at all beyond the first two or so episodes, which I doubt it will.

I know it won't last, it won't make it less annoying especially if Arya's characterization and Arya and Jon's bond suffer as a result... Still hoping it won't come to this. I need leaks, sigh.

About Sansa's survival, I said "if" so obviously I stopped thinking she had a chance to die in WF when both sources agreed on Sophie filming in Seville.

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Is she, though?

Summary of my POV, already more developed upthread: Antagonizing someone with armies/dragons as well as questioning how her brother got that alliance they need to survive because she wants the North independent is placing petty politics above the real threat. YMMV.

Cersei is a threat, but tbh she wouldn't be a military danger for the Starks or the North allied with the Targaryens. Sic the dragons from the sky, even the GC is fried. I think Cersei could be dangerous earlier, but it depends on the GC going North or not; and also, maybe, on the AOTD advancing as one big chunk, or dispersing in kind of phalanges now that they passed the Wall. The trailer doesn't show J&D or dragons at WF before the attack, whereas Davos, Sansa & Arya are seen on the walls and Jorah seems to lead the soldiers at the foot of the walls. So I was thinking that maybe, J&D went with the dragons on a mission relying on Bran's directions/intructions (at the altar of Winter, to attack part of the AOTD that wouldn't have the NK with them etc.). Then, WF would be vulnerable to a GC attack and the WoTW spoilers about the Lannister army attacking WF would make more sense.

I didn't see any spoiler about Sansa and Ned Umber, there's nothing at all in Friki's leaks for sure.

I, too, have always thought that one Stark would fall with WF but it obviously won't be a Stark by blood. Indeed, maybe Theon.

There's an article calling Harry Strickland "Cersei's new lackey", it seems.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

It doesn't matter if Dany is a foreigner or not. The important part is a.) that she's unknown to them and b.) her father killed prominent members of the North, wo may even have been friends to these Northern Lords. And now she returns on their doorstep using the same weapons her father once used. 

And Ramsay sacked Winterfell and Roose Bolton took part in the Red Wedding. He murdered northmen and was the one who stabbed Robb, who was his king, to death. 

[GraceK]

Yes yes yes Dany is evil incarnate 😆. Once the WW are defeated, they can kick her out and then just ask Cersei Lannister really nicely for Northern Independence. I’m sure The Evil Queen who belongs to the family who has done the most damage to the North recently, as in, installed the Bolton’s, killed Ned, the Red Wedding, etc etc , will most definitely be reasonable and accommodating, especially since she just betrayed them all and didn’t help 😊 I’m sure she would love nothing better then rule justly, and benevolently over all . And if she doesn’t, why, they can just take their depleted forces that just took on the AOTD , depending on what’s left, and wage war against Cersei AND Dany for Northern independence ....i  guess? Or team up with Cersei who didn’t help them and just fight Dany for...reasons? 

I’m at a loss. Has it occurred to anyone that if they win, Dany will most likely just Crown Sansa Queen in the North? She was more than willing to give the Iron Islands their independence in exchange for their help. Why wouldn’t she give the North theirs?

She loves Jon and if they win there’s no reason she wouldn’t give the North what they ask.

Edited April 10, 2019 by GraceK

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Summary of my POV, already more developed upthread: Antagonizing someone with armies/dragons as well as questioning how her brother got that alliance they need to survive because she wants the North independent is placing petty politics above the real threat. YMMV.

We haven't seen any indication that Sansa is treating Dany with anything but the courtesy due a queen and ruler. If she lacks warmth, that's not actionable. Questioning her brother in private about his motivations is a family's prerogative.

[Happy Harpy]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

We haven't seen any indication that Sansa is treating Dany with anything but the courtesy due a queen and ruler. If she lacks warmth, that's not actionable. Questioning her brother in private about his motivations is a family's prerogative.

If Dany wonders whether Jon's sisters hate her, it's an indication that she might not -or Arya for that matter but well, courtesy was never Arya's thing, LOL; obvious bad grace is antagonizing. As for questioning Jon, I was speaking of Sansa's state of mind: the issue is the very fact that she cares/is pissed off Jon bent the knee instead of being thankful that he's giving the North a chance to survive. But we already had this conversation and we'll never agree.

*initially* *initially* *initially*🤞

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, Happy Harpy said:

But we already had this conversation and we'll never agree.

Yeah this thread seems to be going in circles 😂 we will find out soon enough 

[ElizaD]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So maybe at the end, if the show is really an exploration of power, then we will see ALL forms of power challenged. Not just the Iron Throne - but also the houses in charge of the individual kingdoms. Do the current leaders of House Stark - who are worrying about petty politics when the AOTD is marching on the North - deserve to be in charge of the North?

I don't think the series, book or TV, will address any of these issues. Despite the more seemingly realistic politics of the early books, it's always been headed for a good vs. evil clash that any last-minute revelation about the White Walkers is unlikely to make nuanced. Dany's actions are more relevant now because we're nearing the very likely victory of her absolute monarchy - and I will be extremely surprised if there's anything democratic about her new system. I think the series is a fantasy epic that's more modern than LOTR in many ways, but I don't believe that it's an exploration of power in any truly serious way. It's a fantasy with more women, more POC (in minor roles) though perhaps even fewer peasants than LOTR, but it's heading for the exact same ending of the rightful heir taking the throne and all's well.

In general, though I think the Targaryen restoration is the most logical ending right now, after the North proclaimed its independence should it really matter that some of them were good rulers in the past or that Robert didn't make the North suffer? I could name some emperors who were relatively good to my country and left us to mostly run things by ourselves, but others that followed them destroyed any goodwill that had been created. Independence is infinitely superior to being part of an empire, always left to wonder whether tolerance or oppression will be the new monarch's policy towards you, and it's not a petty matter to think about what will happen to your land politically after a war; the show may be doing it as poorly and one-dimensionally as it has done Sansa' s political skills, but this conflict is still absolutely more realistic than immediate acceptance of Dany. If an independent North has a problem with the Starks, they can kick them out and choose a new ruler from among the people without the same kind of fear that Dany will come to reinstate Jon or replace him with a total stranger of her own choosing. But again, I truly don't think the show will go there in any significant manner. Dany will face some strawmen that are about her father's crimes and her own personal fitness and when she proves herself the good queen the only acknowledged problem will go away, leaving the Targaryens in charge.

[SeanC]

24 minutes ago, screamin said:

We haven't seen any indication that Sansa is treating Dany with anything but the courtesy due a queen and ruler. If she lacks warmth, that's not actionable.

Whether it’s “actionable”, mouthing the words while giving the subject an “I fucking hate you and I’m choking on saying this” glare is definitely antagonistic.

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

One of the things I find a bit weird when considering Sansa's endgame is that she has been LOW since the end of s6.  So if her endgame is to be LOW, it seems kind of underwhelming since she would have effectively achieved her endgame 2 seasons before the finale.  I guess Sansa could be named Warden and get a promotion of sorts, but she was essentially acting Warden in s7 when Jon was gone so again it's a bit "same old".

I think the idea (assuming that’s what happens) is that we’re supposed to be seeing her grow into the role.  She was LOW in Season 7, but insecure and at odds with others in her family, dealing with Littlefinger’s temptation.  In Season 8, it’s about dealing with the apocalypse (particularly if the very ending is about her being in charge of a basically destroyed North).

As far as how endgames go, you can basically write thematically appropriate explanations for all of the Stark kids ruling Winterfell, so it was more a question of guessing which of these arcs was what was going to happen.  

Until recently I personally felt that the ending was likely to be Bran as a sort of god-lord (there was one Tumblr meta writer who was a very eloquent proponent of this theory), with his sisters also dwelling at Winterfell and contributing their skills to making the family strong.  Admittedly, I always had one big reservation about that (namely, GRRM’s insistence that the North had absolutely, positively never had a female ruler before, which seemed to me like it was meant to be a setup for one of the girls to break that barrier), but nevertheless.

However, I really don’t see how you get to anything like that ending at this point in the show if Sansa doesn’t die, and there are numerous independent indicators that she doesn’t.  Especially given how hard the show had pushed the “Game of Thrones is totally a feminist show about the rise of powerful ladies upending the patriarchy” angle.

That is also a big reason why I seriously question any theory where Dany dies or steps aside to be the consort to Good King Jon.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Whether it’s “actionable”, mouthing the words while giving the subject an “I fucking hate you and I’m choking on saying this” glare is definitely antagonistic.

IMO, faking a warmth you absolutely do not feel is likely to come off as even more offputting, like serving up a cup of treacle and vinegar...it's a pretense likely to be seen through and thus will add an additional bit of insult - ie, "You think I'm such an idiot I'd fall for that saccharine smile?" Cool politeness is more honest under the circumstances, without giving any open offense.

Edited April 10, 2019 by screamin

[Eyes High]

45 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Whether it’s “actionable”, mouthing the words while giving the subject an “I fucking hate you and I’m choking on saying this” glare is definitely antagonistic.

I think the idea (assuming that’s what happens) is that we’re supposed to be seeing her grow into the role.  She was LOW in Season 7, but insecure and at odds with others in her family, dealing with Littlefinger’s temptation.  In Season 8, it’s about dealing with the apocalypse (particularly if the very ending is about her being in charge of a basically destroyed North).

As far as how endgames go, you can basically write thematically appropriate explanations for all of the Stark kids ruling Winterfell, so it was more a question of guessing which of these arcs was what was going to happen.  

Until recently I personally felt that the ending was likely to be Bran as a sort of god-lord (there was one Tumblr meta writer who was a very eloquent proponent of this theory), with his sisters also dwelling at Winterfell and contributing their skills to making the family strong.  Admittedly, I always had one big reservation about that (namely, GRRM’s insistence that the North had absolutely, positively never had a female ruler before, which seemed to me like it was meant to be a setup for one of the girls to break that barrier), but nevertheless.

However, I really don’t see how you get to anything like that ending at this point in the show if Sansa doesn’t die, and there are numerous independent indicators that she doesn’t.  Especially given how hard the show had pushed the “Game of Thrones is totally a feminist show about the rise of powerful ladies upending the patriarchy” angle.

That is also a big reason why I seriously question any theory where Dany dies or steps aside to be the consort to Good King Jon.

I think there’s a difference between intent and ultimate effect, though. D&D fell all over themselves praising the scene where a bunch of female leaders talk strategy together for being super feminist and progressive while conveniently glossing over the fact that within two episodes, two of those female leaders were dead or as good as dead and another was captured and shuffled offscreen for the remainder of the season. D&D’s intent and perception—Sansa is a political genius, the show is super feminist, etc.—do not necessarily translate to what’s onscreen.

So while we’ve been promised great things for the women of S8, the rise of the female characters and the uprooting of the patriarchy and all that, that may not have much to do with what ultimately happens in the season, much less who ends up ruling. Indeed, S8 kicking off with petty infighting between Dany and Sansa, conqueror queen dragon mother Dany being reduced to Meet the Parents nonsense, and Cersei helplessly blackmailed into sex by Euron, is not at all promising.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

12 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

But again, I truly don't think the show will go there in any significant manner. Dany will face some strawmen that are about her father's crimes and her own personal fitness and when she proves herself the good queen the only acknowledged problem will go away, leaving the Targaryens in charge.

You lost me there when you said that the books have no deeper meaning. I know D&D are about the fantasy spectacle but the author doesn't just add in fake drama. Resistance to imperialism, independence IS the drama. Every action has consequences, history isn't easily brushed aside, and characters trap themselves into corners and are pushed to breaking points.

He's also tried to show what being a Targaryen means, that it is a different way of ruling because of the disproportionate use of force through magic, setting themselves up as gods. It's not just your average feudal family. It's like giving the Ptolemies nuclear warheads to rule over the primitives. The Targaryens created a template for how to rule the 7 kingdoms, Cersei is just following it, and Dany has no pragmatic ideas about how to change it. 

I also think the author is trying to ask a question, how does power change people. I think we'll see how--even on the show in a watered-down form. I do think he is concerned with what makes a good ruler and I dont think he agrees that might=right. He appears to see dragons as only one form of power that is limiting because of how he wrote the Targaryens being unable to keep their buildings standing in Fire and Blood, for leaving Westeros with no lasting institutions, or for being unable to prevent rebellions from popping up over their relatively short 300 year reign.

So I think Dany will have a very narrow repertoire with which to show that she's a "good queen." I know that so far it looks like Dany has faced no consequences for her actions but I do not think the author is about that kind of characterization. We're at the end now I think Dany will face real resistance that she can only solve with dragons (because thats her default), and that won't be shown to be a "win." I certainly hope the show doesn't revert back to dragons. vs. zombies because otherwise it's just a CW show with really cool CGI. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

To be fair, Yara was shuffled offscreen, because the actress was pregnant. She's back now. And this is one reason why I think she'll survive. If they wanted to get rid of her, they had the perfect opportunity last season and they didn't. So in all likelihood she'll end up ruling the Iron Islands. Especially since she seems to be around at the end of the season, while Theon according to spoilers probably isn't.

Olenna's death was more symbolical for the end of the house Tyrell in the show. And the main contender as ruler of the Reach is now Sam, who is male but a far cry from a masculine warrior. And the Sand Snakes just had to be punished. The male characters don't get away with murder of innocents either.

In fact, with the exception of Jon (who started as a bastard and therefore sort of an outsider) and Euron (who is about the safest bet of any character for dieing in season 8 ) all of the major political players now are either women or supposedly weak men.

[sacrebleu]

I think -- given the conversation between Jon/Dany about the witch lying about her ability to conceive children-- the show ends with Dany pregnant with Jon's baby and assuming the throne. Or little Eddard-Rheahgar being named king with Dany ruling until he comes of age.

I suspect Jon Snow will sacrifice himself in the great war-- he's already died once, and the whole notion of the seemingly lowborn guy (who is a secret prince) who rises from the dead to  fulfill his destiny by killing the Night King and ending the war between the living and the dead is a satisfying narrative. 

[Colorful Mess]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

The Starks have a pretty bloody history. Look it up. They were not so nice people.

Which did not result in 8000 years later, a succession of batshit insane people every 3rd Stark or so. The Starks became normal, boring feudal lords. Normal and boring is good for the people of Westeros. No surprise that the "dragons heir" (literally what Joffrey is called in the books) threw it into chaos again.  

About the reactions to Stark pushback - I do think turning against the Starks to some degree is the point. It would be so interesting if they were the villains to Dany's hero and vice versa. Audiences have never had their good guys vs. bad guys template challenged before. That's what happened in Field of Fire and to a lesser extent, Battle of Blackwater in S2: who do I root for? It's great.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[Minneapple]

33 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

So while we’ve been promised great things for the women of S8, the rise of the female characters and the uprooting of the patriarchy and all that, that may not have much to do with what ultimately happens in the season, much less who ends up ruling. Indeed, S8 kicking off with petty infighting between Dany and Sansa, conqueror queen dragon mother Dany being reduced to Meet the Parents nonsense, and Cersei helplessly blackmailed into sex by Euron, is not at all promising.

Well, strong women are still allowed to be petty and angry and make bad choices. The issue is, do they have agency within their story? This was what pissed off people about Sansa's arc in marrying Ramsey. She was on the cusp of finally having agency, then was manipulated into the marriage by Littlefinger and it all went downhill from there. But now, pretty much all the women characters have agency. They have the power to make their own choices. So they choose to be petty or sleep with Euron. Hey, at least they made those choices themselves. And, I should also note, these are only singular facets of their characters. Sansa and Arya are building a stronger sister relationship. Dany is in love and still commands her dragons, plus the Dothraki. They are multi-faceted characters, not two-dimensional archetypes.

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

 About the reactions to Stark pushback - I do think turning against the Starks to some degree is the point. It would be so interesting if they were the villains to Dany's hero and vice versa. Audiences have never had their good guys vs. bad guys template challenged before. That's what happened in Field of Fire and to a lesser extent, Battle of Blackwater in S2: who do I root for? It's great.

Starks as villains, that would be kind of interesting (though I don't think it happens). I will maintain that I think Book Sansa has the potential to become a mini-Cersei, manipulative and obsessed with power. And I think Sansa and Cersei will meet again before the TV series is over.

[Eyes High]

15 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Well, strong women are still allowed to be petty and angry and make bad choices. The issue is, do they have agency within their story?

Yes, but the example I gave was one where female characters had their agency stripped from them in various ways despite D&D patting themselves on the back for a single scene involving those same characters. As I said, intent doesn't match up with execution for D&D in many aspects, but in particular when it comes to the super feminist story they think they're telling, so making predictions about the plot or endgame of S8 on the assumption that it's going to be super feminist seems ill-advised.

With all that said, there was such a blowback over the Sansa rape storyline that I think the writers are going to tread extremely lightly when it comes to her character's S8 arc. They brought it on themselves, so I don't have much sympathy, but there it is.

Quote

But now, pretty much all the women characters have agency. They have the power to make their own choices.

That's demonstrably untrue, as with Yara, Ellaria, Olenna, who wound up and in two cases died as captives, and now I guess Cersei, who seems to be captive in a different sense.

[Minneapple]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

With all that said, there was such a blowback over the Sansa rape storyline that I think the writers are going to tread extremely lightly when it comes to her character's S8 arc. They brought it on themselves, so I don't have much sympathy, but there it is.

That's demonstrably untrue, as with Yara, Ellaria, Olenna, who wound up and in two cases died as captives, and now I guess Cersei, who seems to be captive in a different sense.

At the very least, the Sansa rape storyline was the last straw for everyone with the rape on this show. Everyone had had enough, and it served as a wakeup call for D&D to just ending all the rapes. And I will say that at least they didn't "disappear" Ramsey's rape of Sansa. It was bizarre to have Bran bring it up, but at least it showed she's still scarred, mentally (and probably physically) from it. It's reflected in her clothing and her demeanor, even still in the upcoming season.

Cersei lies in a bed of her own making, literally. She chose to sleep with Euron. She trapped herself. She could walk away, find a different method to her madness, stop being so consumed with power. But this is the path she chose.

[Eyes High]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

Cersei lies in a bed of her own making, literally. She chose to sleep with Euron. She trapped herself. She could walk away, find a different method to her madness, stop being so consumed with power. But this is the path she chose.

I'm uncomfortable with this kind of talk, because the same logic could be applied (and was applied by the writers) to Sansa choosing to marry Ramsay: Sansa knew what she was doing, she could have walked away and refused to marry Ramsay, "she was a hardened woman making a choice" or whatever Bryan Cogman said. If Sansa had no agency when Ramsay raped her despite agreeing to marry Ramsay, then can't we say that Cersei has no agency when blackmailed into sleeping with Euron despite having made an earlier agreement with him?

Quote

At the very least, the Sansa rape storyline was the last straw for everyone with the rape on this show. Everyone had had enough, and it served as a wakeup call for D&D to just ending all the rapes. 

They didn't end all the rapes: it was heavily implied that Septa Unella would be raped offscreen (and that scene was gross and unnecessary), and it looks like from the WOTW casting information that there's a scene in S8 where a peasant woman is sexually assaulted. Still, the writers have toned down the sexual violence somewhat, so that's something.

[Minneapple]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm uncomfortable with this kind of talk, because the same logic could be applied (and was applied by the writers) to Sansa choosing to marry Ramsay: Sansa knew what she was doing, she could have walked away and refused to marry Ramsay

She was being manipulated by Littlefinger. That's why she didn't have agency in her own story. 

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

To be fair, Yara was shuffled offscreen, because the actress was pregnant. She's back now. And this is one reason why I think she'll survive. If they wanted to get rid of her, they had the perfect opportunity last season and they didn't. So in all likelihood she'll end up ruling the Iron Islands. Especially since she seems to be around at the end of the season, while Theon according to spoilers probably isn't.

The miracle is that Yara isn't a broken shell of her former self given that Euron is basically Ramsey 2.0.  You'd think he'd have her tortured constantly, possibly chop off a few body parts, et.