Stannis Baratheon: He Never Asked For This

[Fen]

The only way Stannis can win any redemption at this point in the audience's eyes - imo - is if he is willing to sacrifice himself at some point for the greater good: to prove that he sees defeating the threat from beyond the wall as so important that everything must be done to prevent it - not just that anything justifies the throne.

 

Even if he takes Winterfell now it will be a total Pyrrhic victory.

 

What will be interesting now is the fall-out in terms of Davos - and possibly Selyse.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Fen

[Gudzilla]

I still want him to destroy the Boltons though.

[Hecate7]

I want Stannis to destroy the Boltons, and then Brienne, conflicted, to meet Davos, who will encourage her to take out Stannis because "one good act doesn't wash away the bad."

 

In the course of fighting the Boltons, I want Selyse and Melisandre flayed. The only reason I want Stannis alive is so that Brienne can kill him as she's always wanted to. I find it much easier to forgive Theon because he was a hostage and never did really get what all this was about--life, love, humanity. He was unclear on the concept. He had no other choice, being an Ironborn hostage in the North, pressure to be "a man" and to despise the weak on him at all times from birth. The real love of Theon's life was Robb Stark, and so in a way he and Stannis are the same--giving up the thing that is really worth something, for the sake of an unknown that turns out  to be worthless in the end. But I have an easier time forgiving Theon because he was never very bright, and because he was so desperate for approval and to be worth something, and failed so spectacularly. Redemption will be easier for Theon, I think.

[nksarmi]

I don't want Stannis to win, but I do hope he does some serious damage to the Boltons before he ultimately loses.  I do want Brie to be his death, but perhaps by killing him she can get inside Roose's good will.  I do hope Ramsey somehow dies before Stannis does - I would settle on them taking each other out.  I hate to say this, but I would even settle on LF arriving from the Vale to slaughter what's left of Stannis army even if he does beat the Boltons because I do not want Stannis to be able to justify his daughter's death in any way at all.

[Spartan Girl]

Well, I wasn't rooting for Stannis before this episode, and I sure as hell won't now.

[Philbert]

 

The only way Stannis can win any redemption at this point in the audience's eyes - imo - is if he is willing to sacrifice himself at some point for the greater good: to prove that he sees defeating the threat from beyond the wall as so important that everything must be done to prevent it - not just that anything justifies the throne.

 

I'm hoping they keep him around until the end so he can play a pivotal role in the war against the White Walkers. Maybe then Shireen's death might mean something. I still feel enough empathy for the character to hope that there is more to him than just blind ambition...that he killed his beloved daughter for more than just an ugly chair with a lot of swords sticking out of it.

[Attaboy000]

What will be interesting now is the fall-out in terms of Davos - and possibly Selyse.

I sincerely hope they don't go in the classic stereotypical direction by having Selyse suddenly resent Stannis and blame him for everything, although, the way Selyse as a character has been set up I am kind of expecting that. Even though the crazy B wanted it that way.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Attaboy000

[TudorQueen]

It seems to me that only two people have ever really loved Stannis  - Shireen and Davos. He burned the one at the stake and may have burned his bridges with the other. It's tragic, and like most tragedies, was brought about by his own flaws.

 

I actually felt for Stannis as a character - he reminded me in many ways of Soames Forsyte, the protagonist of "The Forsyte Saga". But Soames sacrificed his life to save his daughter, Fleur. Stannis sacrificed his daughter's life to fulfill some obsessive concept of destiny.

[Philbert]

 

I sincerely hope they don't go in the classic stereotypical direction by having Selyse suddenly resent Stannis and blame him for everything, although, the way Selyse as a character has been set up I am kind of expecting that. Even though the crazy B wanted it that way.

 

See, even though they had been setting up Shireen's death for some time now, I think a lot of us assumed that Stannis would never go along with it, so Melisandre goes to Selyse and they do it together behind Stannis back. Weiss and Benioff have decided to raise the stakes for whatever and made him virtually irredeemable to most people who watch this show. Even hard core Stannis fans are jumping off the bandwagon in droves. It may be been one stop too far but I'll give them credit for at attempting to push the envelope. Then again, while Stannis has always been a pivotal figure in the story, he's not one of the principle characters. It's be far more controversial of Jon, Daenerys or Tyrion had done it.

[Hecate7]

This was timely, because I had jumped off the Danaerys bandwagon and onto Stannis's, when she fed people to Rheagal and Viserion without a trial. Now they're even, Stannis and Danaerys. I rationalized that if they were both gonna burn people alive, I'd pick the one who did it according to a rigid set of rules I could make choices about following. But now that's out the window, too.

 

Both are crazy, but she's crazy in a "which way will she go" kind of way, unpredictable, capricious, illogical, and completely lacking in mercy when she's angry. He's crazy in a completely predictable way: he loves Davos but the law was the law, and he chopped off the smuggler's hands even though the smuggler saved him and everyone else. Would you rather have pretty, sparkly, but might kill you on suspicion of something you didn't do, or drab, irritating, and will definitely kill you if you screw up?

 

But when Stannis said to hang the guards, I thought that was a bit stupid. He needs every man he can get for this fight, and he's gonna hang some of them? How about punishing them in some other way, so he's not reducing his own numbers? I'm back to Danaerys now.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Hecate7

[Constantinople]

This was timely, because I had jumped off the Danaerys bandwagon and onto Stannis's, when she fed people to Rheagal and Viserion without a trial. Now they're even, Stannis and Danaerys. I rationalized that if they were both gonna burn people alive, I'd pick the one who did it according to a rigid set of rules I could make choices about following. But now that's out the window, too.

 

Both are crazy, but she's crazy in a "which way will she go" kind of way, unpredictable, capricious, illogical, and completely lacking in mercy when she's angry. He's crazy in a completely predictable way: he loves Davos but the law was the law, and he chopped off the smuggler's hands even though the smuggler saved him and everyone else. Would you rather have pretty, sparkly, but might kill you on suspicion of something you didn't do, or drab, irritating, and will definitely kill you if you screw up?

Daenerys crucified 160 odd former slave owners and dragon toasted 1 or 2 more.

Since I've never owned anyone, I'll go with Daenerys.

 

But when Stannis said to hang the guards, I thought that was a bit stupid. He needs every man he can get for this fight, and he's gonna hang some of them? How about punishing them in some other way, so he's not reducing his own numbers? I'm back to Danaerys now.

Given how incompetent those guards were, I'd say it's the classic case of addition by subtraction.

[Holmbo]

I don't want Brienne killing Stannis. There's too much obsession with revenge in this series and it's shown to be an endless destructive circle of violence. I hope that the characters who ends up standing are the ones who choose to focus on the present and the further rather than the past. So I'd like it if Brienne gets a choice between killing Stannis or helping Sansa and she chooses the later because Sansa is still alive while Renly is dead.

I don't even know how I want Stannis to die. Maybe suicide?

Edited June 12, 2015 by Holmbo

[FemmyV]

If I get to choose how Stannis dies? By some noble sacrifice, after he realizes what a putz he's been where Mel is concerned.

 

Someone, back, compared what he did to Shireen with the Abrahamic almost-sacrifice of the Bible. Comparatively, I'd say Stannis fucked up when he chose not to take orders from the big guy, directly, and allowed Mel to channel communications.

[Lady S.]

Aw, c'mon, y'all!

[Conan Troutman]

Remember when he insisted on addressing Jamie as "Ser Jamie, the Kingslayer" back in season 2? I wonder if he'll add Kinslayer to his own batch of titles or if his so called justice stops with himself.

[Lady S.]

Well, he's already been a kinslayer since that foolish usurper brother of his bit it, and I don't recall that term ever being used on the show anyway. 

 

Speaking of Renly, I will never stop thinking he brought his doom upon himself, or that comparing innocents like Gendry and Shireen to their uncle in his planned military takeover (which does not qualify as populism!) is an insult to poor Shireen, but I am coming around to the idea that his murder was when Stan turned to the dark side, so to speak, and that it was the gateway to contemplating (Gendry) or actually committing (Shireen) the kinslaying of actual innocents. When thinking about the bleak future of House Baratheon, it feels like Stannis needed Renly alive, if he could have somehow captured him and forced him to give up his crown, Stannis would have his male heir, and if Renly could ever get it up for a lady, then the next generation could be secured as well. Instead, Stannis has been on a slippery slope from pragmatism to utilitarianism with his proposed military and messianic ends justifying Mel's evil means, and now he's proven his willingness to pay the ultimate price and effectively sold his soul for a false destiny.

 

Of course, if he had gotten Renly to return to his rightful place in the succession and ditched Mel, there's always the chance the Tyrells would just poison him to speed him Renly's inheritance, but hey Shireen would at least be in safer hands with Uncle Renly and Aunt Marg than with Daddy red mistress. 

[Holmbo]

Well, he's already been a kinslayer since that foolish usurper brother of his bit it, and I don't recall that term ever being used on the show anyway.

Speaking of Renly, I will never stop thinking he brought his doom upon himself, or that comparing innocents like Gendry and Shireen to their uncle in his planned military takeover (which does not qualify as populism!) is an insult to poor Shireen, but I am coming around to the idea that his murder was when Stan turned to the dark side, so to speak, and that it was the gateway to contemplating (Gendry) or actually committing (Shireen) the kinslaying of actual innocents. When thinking about the bleak future of House Baratheon, it feels like Stannis needed Renly alive, if he could have somehow captured him and forced him to give up his crown, Stannis would have his male heir, and if Renly could ever get it up for a lady, then the next generation could be secured as well. Instead, Stannis has been on a slippery slope from pragmatism to utilitarianism with his proposed military and messianic ends justifying Mel's evil means, and now he's proven his willingness to pay the ultimate price and effectively sold his soul for a false destiny.

Of course, if he had gotten Renly to return to his rightful place in the succession and ditched Mel, there's always the chance the Tyrells would just poison him to speed him Renly's inheritance, but hey Shireen would at least be in safer hands with Uncle Renly and Aunt Marg than with Daddy red mistress.

I agree that killing Renly does not at all compare to killing Gendry or Shireen. The thing that lots of people don't seem to realize is that Renly would have to kill Stannis in order to be accepted as king. He could never be secure on the throne while Stannis was alive and most lords wouldn't like the thought of a younger brother inheriting before an older since it puts their own claim in jeopardy.

Even so it would indeed have been better for Stannis if he could have spared Renly so he'd have a spare heir.

[Elkins]

I think you could make a case that it's not so much that he assassinated Renly as how he did it.  It seems to be implied that making those shadow babies literally drains a part of the father's spirit, or even his soul. I'm not sure how well I think the concept of spiritual corruption really fits with Martin's view of the world, or even how well the idea of morality being rooted in the soul does -- both concepts seem a little jarring to me as part of the ASOIAF universe, although I'm not sure I can articulate my feelings why -- but it seems to me that if anything in his world has that kind of corrupting power, that sort of blood magic does.

[Conan Troutman]

Of course, if he had gotten Renly to return to his rightful place in the succession and ditched Mel, there's always the chance the Tyrells would just poison him to speed him Renly's inheritance, but hey Shireen would at least be in safer hands with Uncle Renly and Aunt Marg than with Daddy red mistress. 

 

Stannis and Mel are both stupid.

 

My strategy:

 

1. Wait till Renly takes the throne.

2. Kill Renly.

3. ???

4. Not rot in hell.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[Avaleigh]

I think you could make a case that it's not so much that he assassinated Renly as how he did it.  It seems to be implied that making those shadow babies literally drains a part of the father's spirit, or even his soul. I'm not sure how well I think the concept of spiritual corruption really fits with Martin's view of the world, or even how well the idea of morality being rooted in the soul does -- both concepts seem a little jarring to me as part of the ASOIAF universe, although I'm not sure I can articulate my feelings why -- but it seems to me that if anything in his world has that kind of corrupting power, that sort of blood magic does.

I would have very different feelings about Renly's death if Stannis had taken him out on the battlefield. 

 

As Renly's brother I think it was dishonorable of Stannis to kill him the way that he did and based on the books I feel like Stannis agrees and basically regrets what he did and knows it wasn't right otherwise he wouldn't be so haunted by that damned peach moment. 

[Ambrosefolly]

Part of the reason I wanted Stannis to win is because I like Shireen so much. It wasn't that she was such a sweetheart, it was she was the heir that Joffrey, Tommen or even Myrcella aren't. I wanted Dany to meet her and if she couldn't truly have any children, name her as her heir. She was incredibly inquisitive, strong and kind hearted. When she got a view of the pyre, she knew exactly what was about to happen and tried to book it out of there. I think Mellisandre's desire to burn her was as much personal as it was fanatically: Shireen called her on her crap when she burned her uncle alive, and did it not by insulting her but using something for more potent to discredit her arguments;logic. If Stannis was to die, Shireen would have banished her from court with Davos full support. Whether Stannis' army would have complied as they seemed to be converted to LoL I don't know, but that Mel has effectively removed that block to convert Westroes to LoL.

[Calamity Jane]

It seems to me that only two people have ever really loved Stannis  - Shireen and Davos. He burned the one at the stake and may have burned his bridges with the other. It's tragic, and like most tragedies, was brought about by his own flaws.

 

I actually felt for Stannis as a character - he reminded me in many ways of Soames Forsyte, the protagonist of "The Forsyte Saga". But Soames sacrificed his life to save his daughter, Fleur. Stannis sacrificed his daughter's life to fulfill some obsessive concept of destiny.

He certainly has a Soames-like quality to him, hadn't ever thought of that comparison. 

[Calamity Jane]

If I get to choose how Stannis dies? By some noble sacrifice, after he realizes what a putz he's been where Mel is concerned.

 

Someone, back, compared what he did to Shireen with the Abrahamic almost-sacrifice of the Bible. Comparatively, I'd say Stannis fucked up when he chose not to take orders from the big guy, directly, and allowed Mel to channel communications.

I was trying to compose a post along these lines and finally gave up, but yeah, if you're going to say a deity commanded you to kill your child, I think you need to hear it direct from said deity, not through an intermediary.  Abraham didn't go on someone else's say-so. 

[CletusMusashi]

Stannis lived and died as the poster boy for what old style RPG nerds refer to as the Lawful Neutral alignment. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Conan Troutman]

More like Awful Neutral.

[GreyBunny]

I was trying to compose a post along these lines and finally gave up, but yeah, if you're going to say a deity commanded you to kill your child, I think you need to hear it direct from said deity, not through an intermediary.  Abraham didn't go on someone else's say-so. 

Even if the command to kill your child came directly from a deity the correct answer is NO.  Abraham is no less a jackass than Stannis.

[MadMouse]

Do most people here think he's dead? The show has men beating young girls, flaying people, rape and they don't show him getting his head taken off? I fully expect Brienne, Pod, Stannis, Theon and Sansa being hunted by Ramsay as they try and make it to the safety of the Wall.

[CletusMusashi]

He's dead. Even if she felt a twinge of sympathy, I don't think that would be enough to make Brienne abandon her primary oath. Yes, primary. Catelyn made it clear that the bodyguard schtick would be excused as soon as there was a clear shot at killing Stannis. But, at least he got to die doing what he enjoyed most. Being grim and miserable. The only thing missing was maybe a chance at one last grammatical nitpick.

[Lady S.]

I need to find a gif of him bumping Mel with his shoulder very deliberately.

 

Ned's beheading wasn't shown onscreen either. Did people doubt his death before actually seeing his severed head in the finale?

[Philbert]

 

Ned's beheading wasn't shown onscreen either. Did people doubt his death before actually seeing his severed head in the finale?

 

Well, we saw the sword coming down, if not the actual biting into the neck. IIRC, we didn't even see Brienne bring the sword down, and I thought she was at a really strange angle. I'd like Stannis to still be alive but the odds are that he is dead, as is Myrcella. Jon, now....Jon's dead, or at least mostly dead.

[xaxat]

I'm going to miss Stephen Dillane. Lena Headley aside, he delivered my favorite performance. The weary look on his face as "the worst day ever" kept getting worse was understated and so effective.

[Avaleigh]

Even if the command to kill your child came directly from a deity the correct answer is NO.  Abraham is no less a jackass than Stannis.

Seriously, what evil ass deity demands the killing of innocent people? 

 

If you're hearing God talking to you how can you prove that those just aren't your thoughts telling you to commit murder? Even if a person sees some vision in front of them telling them to killkillkill the answer should be a big, loud NO.

 

Stannis gets no pass from me and it wouldn't have been better if he'd heard R'hllor's voice speaking directly to him out of the fire.

[Lady S.]

Well, we saw the sword coming down, if not the actual biting into the neck. IIRC, we didn't even see Brienne bring the sword down, and I thought she was at a really strange angle. I'd like Stannis to still be alive but the odds are that he is dead, as is Myrcella. Jon, now....Jon's dead, or at least mostly dead.

Brienne was swinging the sword right before the scene switched.

 

 

Seriously, what evil ass deity demands the killing of innocent people? 

 

 

 I don't really want get into a discussion of religion, just saying human sacrifice used to be part of most religions, except for Christianity, but that was only because Jesus was a self-sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. I always thought it was pretty fucked up that God needed his own human son crucified to redeem sinners. (I'm going to immediately regret this when someone more religious than I am comes in to argue that last sentence, but the meaner Old Testament God does forbid people to burn their own children, so still better than R'hllor.) What was I saying again? Oh yeah, lots of deities accept the sacrifices of innocent people.

[Fen]

I think Stannis is still alive.  I don't think Brienne followed through.  His final comment to her was telling her to 'do her duty'.  This wasn't her duty, though.  Her duty was to protect Sansa - and she abandoned that to pursue a personal vendetta.  She's already fucked up badly just by leaving her watch - and she knows it.  If she's thinking of a bigger game, then she may have decided that keeping Stannis around might in some way be useful to Sansa's eventual safety.

 

I certainly hope so - anyway - because it would put Stannis in a fascinating place for character development.  His daughter and wife are dead.  He sent Davos away.  Melisandre abandoned him.  He presumably no longer believes he is Azor Ahai.  He has no army.  All he has now is his claim on the throne.  I want to know what he does now.

 

If you're hearing God talking to you how can you prove that those just aren't your thoughts telling you to commit murder? Even if a person sees some vision in front of them telling them to killkillkill the answer should be a big, loud NO.

 

If you're going to look at the show in a medieval-type context, though, then this is a legitimate experience.  Look at Joan of Arc.

 

ETA: The mentions of Soames Forsyte above - I love Soames.  He's one of my favourite characters.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Fen

[Bass90]

"This is Stannis Baratheon, the man will fight to the bitter end and then some"
He's gonna come back as a wight, isn't he?

[stillshimpy]

I'm trying to figure out where the heck the appropriate place to say what it was that I saw that took me out of the Unsullied pool when Stannis died.  

 

I saw a headline that indicated Shireen didn't die in the books.   

 

Yup.  That's what I get for not avoiding Huffpo enough, I guess.   So that just proved to be the thing I wasn't going to be able to unknow and I figured would color my perception of the show forever more.  Oops.  

[Avaleigh]

We're all very close to being in the same boat story wise. There are really only a handful of things now that the show hasn't had happened yet and some of those might be book only things. 

[Bass90]

Damn... so many book questions after this episode:

Is the pink letter true? Did Stannis really die fighting the Boltons and Freys? If so, What would be the point of making him burn Shireen in the show?

And Mel is back at Castle Black, where she was supposed to be anyway. Does it mean she burns Shireen after she hears about Stannis defeat hoping to resurrect him but is Jon who actually comes back? Would Selyse be ok with it? I don't remember any particular hate or shame towards her daughter in the books.

[Umbelina]

He's dead. Even if she felt a twinge of sympathy, I don't think that would be enough to make Brienne abandon her primary oath. Yes, primary. Catelyn made it clear that the bodyguard schtick would be excused as soon as there was a clear shot at killing Stannis. But, at least he got to die doing what he enjoyed most. Being grim and miserable. The only thing missing was maybe a chance at one last grammatical nitpick.

I do wonder what kind of oath she took when she became King's Guard though? 

 

Generally though, I agree, I just don't see Brienne as a oathbreaker, it doesn't make sense for her character.  If anything, she is more rigid than Stannis or Ned.

[Conan Troutman]

I think Stannis is still alive.  I don't think Brienne followed through.  His final comment to her was telling her to 'do her duty'.  This wasn't her duty, though.  Her duty was to protect Sansa - and she abandoned that to pursue a personal vendetta.  She's already fucked up badly just by leaving her watch - and she knows it.  If she's thinking of a bigger game, then she may have decided that keeping Stannis around might in some way be useful to Sansa's eventual safety.

 

I certainly hope so - anyway - because it would put Stannis in a fascinating place for character development.  His daughter and wife are dead.  He sent Davos away.  Melisandre abandoned him.  He presumably no longer believes he is Azor Ahai.  He has no army.  All he has now is his claim on the throne.  I want to know what he does now.

 

He might have a claim to the Iron Throne, but it's completely worthless now because absolutely no one will support him. And I doubt that whoever makes those decisions would declare him king even if Tommen dies and he'd be the only one left: "So, we have the choice between Stannis and an all out bloody succession crisis." "Yeah, bloody succession crisis sounds great."

The only story worth telling is the one where he takes the Black and somehow does play a role in defeating the WW - thus actually making true on the prophesy, but having to lose everything was a necessary part begin with. But I doubt this is the story we'll be getting, I think his tale is simply over.

 

Or he could somehow being reborn into Jon, if that makes any sense (I doubt it does, though), now that they've died conveniently at the same time, give or take a couple of hours.

 

As for the cut away from the scene: If Brienne didn't kill him, I'm sure this would be about Brienne (being reminded of her duty to Sansa), not about Stannis as much. A good opener for season six would be Brienne stopping at the last second and getting to Sansa, while Stannis makes a brief cameo but is slain by a random Bolton soldier or Ramsey/Roose himself immediately - it's not that he would last long even if Brienne wouldn't kill him when there are still thousands of Bolton soldiers out there to kill him.

[thegreathoo]

Stannis did it to himself.  He was unwilling to heed the signs, to realize the greatest sacrifice did not work, the time was not right for the attack.   Meli knew she could not change his mind.

[Hecate7]

"This is Stannis Baratheon, the man will fight to the bitter end and then some"

He's gonna come back as a wight, isn't he?

 

I expect him to, yes.

 

The terrible sad irony is that with Joffrey dead, Myrcella dead, and Tommen probably about to be dead, who is next in line for the throne? It's Stannis. None of this was necessary--the Iron Throne would have been his for the taking without all this bloodshed. Brienne might have stopped at the last minute as she realized this herself.

 

I love the remark that people would choose a succession crisis over Stannis. Certainly in King's Landing they might!

 

Stannis's choices, though, that morning, were: 1) march forward and possibly win by some miracle, as promised by Melisandre, or, 2) walk, on foot, back to Castle Black, which is I think some hundred or so leagues away. He'd have lost what was left of his men, and remember, they had NO provisions whatsoever anymore.They were living on dead horses. He reminded me very much of MacBeth. Has Stephen Dillane gotten to play it? He should.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Hecate7

[Conan Troutman]

I expect him to, yes.

 

The terrible sad irony is that with Joffrey dead, Myrcella dead, and Tommen probably about to be dead, who is next in line for the throne? It's Stannis. None of this was necessary--the Iron Throne would have been his for the taking without all this bloodshed. Brienne might have stopped at the last minute as she realized this herself.

 

I don't see Stephen Dillane coming back to play a wight. Maybe in the books, but even there I doubt it.

 

Another option for Stannis would've been to support Renly, wait until he takes the throne and then simply have him killed - much more effective use of the shadow monster, the army doesn't get slaughtered at Blackwater and he'd be King for three seasons now.

[DigitalCount]

I never understood why either of the Baratheon brothers decided to force the issue when they did, other than Lannister plot armor. A united front would have brought the Storm Lords around them, coupled with the power of the Reach. Renly kinda deserved what he got for practically allowing the realm to dissolve just because he was a spoiled brat. Stannis, though, probably should have known better, but at that point he couldn't do much against Renly without war.

Frigging plot armor.

[Fen]

He might have a claim to the Iron Throne, but it's completely worthless now because absolutely no one will support him. And I doubt that whoever makes those decisions would declare him king even if Tommen dies and he'd be the only one left: "So, we have the choice between Stannis and an all out bloody succession crisis." "Yeah, bloody succession crisis sounds great."

The only story worth telling is the one where he takes the Black and somehow does play a role in defeating the WW - thus actually making true on the prophesy, but having to lose everything was a necessary part begin with. But I doubt this is the story we'll be getting, I think his tale is simply over.

 

Or he could somehow being reborn into Jon, if that makes any sense (I doubt it does, though), now that they've died conveniently at the same time, give or take a couple of hours.

 

No - I agree that Stannis' claim is now virtually worthless given his defeat at Winterfell.  I'm saying that the knowledge that he is the rightful king is the only idea/thing left to him at this point.

 

I actually found the paralleling of Stannis and Jon pretty interesting in the finale.  They are both the two Westerosi characters most committed to the idea that the true battle is against the White Walkers.  They are both weighed down by responsibility.  They are both slaves to duty. You can see everything starting to crumble around them in the last two episodes.  They lose their closest advisors.  They both cross the moral event horizon in the eyes of those around them (Jon allowing the Wildlings through the Wall, and Stannis....well).  They both seem to be dead.

[Lady S.]

I never understood why either of the Baratheon brothers decided to force the issue when they did, other than Lannister plot armor. A united front would have brought the Storm Lords around them, coupled with the power of the Reach. Renly kinda deserved what he got for practically allowing the realm to dissolve just because he was a spoiled brat. Stannis, though, probably should have known better, but at that point he couldn't do much against Renly without war.

Frigging plot armor.

Petty stubbornness was the thing all three Baratheons bros had in spades. IA with Conan that Stannis staying on Dragonstone and waiting for Renly to take King's Landing with his huge army, before he sicced a shadow on him would have been smarter, but I don't think Stan's middle child syndrome could stand the thought of Renly sitting the throne for even one moment, and waiting for him to take the city could have taken awhile since Renly was taking his sweet ass time getting there and throwing a party at every stop along the way. Anyway, I remember one of my favorite parts of Clash was where

Tyrion told Cersei that Stannis and Renly were about to battle each other, and Cersei gets so excited that she hugs Tyrion and jokes about Robert actually being the smart one in that family.

[CletusMusashi]

About double-crossing Renly: It's not his style. When he offered to (temporarily) make him his heir after they joined forces, he meant it. When he said otherwise it would be war, he meant that, too. And in warfare, there is no "magical shadowbaby assassins are not allowed" rule. Even with Shireen, when he said he loved her, he meant it. But he never promised that he wouldn't burn her alive it he thought it was the only way to save a kingdom. Stannis believed in rules more than in anything else.

About his claim to the throne: I'm not sure the sparrows would be fans of a foreign witch who worships only one god and likes to execute people who disagree with her theology. Stannis might be able to get in with them if he turned on her and renounced his new faith, but of course he would never do that, because, rules.

[ulkis]

Seriously, what evil ass deity demands the killing of innocent people?

If you're hearing God talking to you how can you prove that those just aren't your thoughts telling you to commit murder? Even if a person sees some vision in front of them telling them to killkillkill the answer should be a big, loud NO.

If you're going to look at the show in a medieval-type context, though, then this is a legitimate experience. Look at Joan of Arc.

I get your overall point, that Joan was someone who was taken seriously when she said that she was following God's orders, but people didn't outright believe her either, she had to pass a few tests (do we even know how Stannis decided Melisandre was good people in the first place, besides the fact that his wife liked her?),and she didn't say she was there to outright kill the English army, but to drive them out of France. She sent them several messages telling them to leave or she would make battle. I think Melisandre and Joan of Arc are apples and oranges. Joan said she had orders to drive out/kill an occupying army, Melisandre a 10 year old girl.

Edited June 17, 2015 by ulkis

[Hecate7]

However, Jephthah's daughter, and the story of Abraham and Isaac, show that Jehovah of the Bible was already known in those days for demanding burnt offerings of children, and that part of the new covenant between him and Abraham was that he wouldn't be doing that sort of thing anymore. Who knows how long that was going on, before Abraham got the idea to sacrifice a sheep instead?

 

I agree Melisandre and Joan are apples and oranges. Melisandre is more like an Old Testament prophet.

[Fen]

I get your overall point, that Joan was someone who was taken seriously when she said that she was following God's orders, but people didn't outright believe her either, she had to pass a few tests (do we even know how Stannis decided Melisandre was good people in the first place, besides the fact that his wife liked her?),and she didn't say she was there to outright kill the English army, but to drive them out of France. She sent them several messages telling them to leave or she would make battle. I think Melisandre and Joan of Arc are apples and oranges. Joan said she had orders to drive out/kill an occupying army, Melisandre a 10 year old girl.

 

Well - book Stannis just opts for Melisandre initially out of sheer pragmatism.  'People don't like me well enough to follow me, but they will if they think I'm this Azor Ahai guy.  Also - she inspires fear, so might come in handy'.

 

I think the thing with Stannis - bizarre as it may sound, given how the show decided to go with him - is that he doesn't really have faith.  His big moment of commitment came when he saw a vision in the flames.  Faith doesn't require visual proof.  When he talks to Davos in the cells at Dragonstone, he talks about how Melisandre's god gets things done.  He asks for proof all the time.  Even when he has it, he'll still occasionally refer to what Melisandre does as 'magic'.

 

'Occupying army' is a bit of a dicey term in the medieval period.  Aside from that, Joan knew that the English weren't going to pack up and leave. And at the risk of sounding like Tywin - she slaughtered hundreds, Melisandre slaughtered one.  Also - while Joan passed the Dauphin's original test, she failed the ultimate one - the ecclesiastical trial set up to determine her heresy.  Ultimately, the Church decided that Joan's visions were not sent from God.

 

What's interesting for me with Melisandre's take on her religion - and what I'm wondering about next season - is how it can be contrasted with Thoros of Myr.  The classic definition for magic vs religion is 'magic compels, religion persuades':

 

• Thoros admits he is weak and a sinner.  When Beric dies, he begs R'hllor to work through his body to restore his life.  He is insistent that the power is not his, it is all R'hllor, and he only chooses to bestow it.
• Melisandre, though, straight up crosses the line into magic.  If I sacrifice Shireen, then R'hllor will deliver the goods.  That's not really faith and religion in its strictest sense.  That's magic.  If I do this ritual, then this will happen. 

 

She looked utterly chastened when she arrived at the Wall, though.  I wonder if she might change how she carries out her faith.

 

Sorry if I got carried away and there's too much boring detail - history and theology are what I studied :)

Edited June 17, 2015 by Fen