S05.E11: Dyatkovo

[whiporee]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think any of that requires the Jennings to move to Russia. Mischa's important because he's Philip's son and shows how the system and his job continues to keep actual people apart. Martha is showing basically the same thing. I don't think the show's particularly interested in an American family adjusting to Moscow for a whole season.

You're probably much more right than me, but that's a lot of screen time to be spent on making an obvious and easily acceptable point -- one, BTW, that was made more powerfully with Nina last year. While I think I'm wrong, all this time on Soviet minutia must be working toward something bigger than letting us know that the USSR was oppressive and that spying tears families apart. 

[Bannon]

11 hours ago, Fouts said:

We happened to live near Washington, DC in 1984-1985...right around the timeline of this show.  During those years, we got to see the FBI building on a public tour.  I have no idea what the security is like at the FBI now, but I can tell you a little what it was like then.  

To take a tour, all we had to do was show up at a certain time.  There was no need to make advanced reservations or get security checks.  While my husband was a military officer, he wasn't in uniform so that didn't make any difference either way.  The only restriction I recall was that we had to stay closely together as a group and they kept us all moving along at a good pace.  Once I tried to linger for a moment to better see a display they'd just pointed out, but immediately I was told to catch up to the group.  They kept us corralled pretty tightly from front to back.  

While we never toured the White House during those two years, we visited many other DC sites, and the FBI tour had the highest security of anyplace we experienced then.  I've been back to DC a few times since, and each visit I'm struck by the exponential increases in security.  

It's a huge building. I rather doubt they took you into the central area where FBI counterinteligence was dealing with stuff with the highest possible security classification.

[Clanstarling]

40 minutes ago, whiporee said:

You're probably much more right than me, but that's a lot of screen time to be spent on making an obvious and easily acceptable point -- one, BTW, that was made more powerfully with Nina last year. While I think I'm wrong, all this time on Soviet minutia must be working toward something bigger than letting us know that the USSR was oppressive and that spying tears families apart. 

I find it fascinating, myself.  Given Phillip's memories about near starvation as a child, the whole story line around the corruption in the food supply chain may well be pivotal. The minutia is showing how the corruption of their own countrymen is starving their people.

P&E were, justifiably, horrified and incensed when they thought the US was deliberately working to starve the Soviets.  They're laying the groundwork for P&E to find out that their own countrymen are responsible for the poor food supply.

They are already questioning, already suspecting the Centre isn't being honest with them. There are cracks in the foundation of their commitment and beliefs. What will happen when they discover that they've been lied to in the same way they lie to Paige - via deflection, omissions, and palatable spins on the truth? And not just by the fairly anonymous Centre, but by Gabriel, the person they (at least Elizabeth) trusted the most.

It may not be riveting action, but with the possible exception of Oleg's family's silent dinner, I find the Moscow story line interesting, and think it's making an entirely different point than the Nina story line. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

It may not be riveting action, but with the possible exception of Oleg's family's silent dinner, I find the Moscow story line interesting, and think it's making an entirely different point than the Nina story line. 

Yeah, Nina's story seemed to be more about her choosing to stop trying to survive above all else, which she'd been doing during her whole run of the show. She took herself out of that by deciding to just do something she thought was right and was killed for it.

Actually, she's a better parallel to Natalie than anybody else on the show. Natalie spent a lot of the war just wanting to survive above all else.  Nina showed somebody making the choice to not do that. She wound up dead, but she died making a statement of what she wanted to be rather than just trying and failing to survive.

Philip and Elizabeth often kill to protect themselves, but they're still not really in that position since they're doing a job they chose to do because they believed in the purpose. Even when they (or mostly Philip) question the purpose it's not so clear what to do about it yet--except go home, which will probably bring its own complications if they can do it at all.

[magemaud]

On 5/17/2017 at 1:00 AM, PinkRibbons said:

The interrogation of Natalie drove me nuts because the first thing they should have done was make her show them the oldest photos of herself that they could find.

I didn't understand why they didn't show the picture to Anna/Natalie's husband and ask him who it was to determine if it was the woman he met, married and brought to the US. Of course, they were both goners by then, so the point was moot. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by magemaud

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think any of that requires the Jennings to move to Russia. Mischa's important because he's Philip's son and shows how the system and his job continues to keep actual people apart. Martha is showing basically the same thing. I don't think the show's particularly interested in an American family adjusting to Moscow for a whole season.

Yeah, I agree. I'm surprised at people not getting that she would not be seen as a victim. Even if we're sympathetic about her being raped and her family being killed, she chose to kill for Nazis in order to survive. She survived for 40 years living a good life. Eventually her crimes caught up with her.

Elsewhere someone referred to this missions as "busywork" which I think showed how disconnected many people are today to how people who lived through this felt. 

Yeah. 

That's why, for me, the biggest thing that happened in the episode was Elizabeth wanting to go home. And Philip not shooting. Killing the couple wasn't a shock. Or even particularly heinous given the context of this show. She did what the centre said she did. She murdered her own people. While she was sympathetic, and her story was tragic,  there are plenty of people who would have justifiably hated her and wanted her dead. I can see how this was the last straw for Elizabeth though. Just as I can see how Philip is just so over killing that he just couldn't do it this time. It really was well done imo. 

[Umbelina]

I dunno.  They MAY go home, and frankly, I think I would adore that story.

This is their latest ad.

[Addlepated]

The actor who plays the husband looks just like someone to me.  Who am I thinking of?  

[spaceghostess]

On 5/17/2017 at 6:36 AM, Ina123 said:

BTW, was the interrogation of a mentally ill person by the KGB guy possibly Misha?

Conflicted re: this possibility. On one hand, it gives Misha's plotline a reason to exist; on the other hand, Misha is my woobie and he's been through enough!

[dr pepper]

Of all the killings they've done in the show it takes an at least marginally righteous one to upset her?

[Helena Dax]

I think it makes their reaction even more powerful. This isn't about that woman. If they can't handle even killing a Nazi collaborator, they're absolutely burnt out. 

[SusanSunflower]

fascinating segment on the early history of Nazi massacres -- intentionally involving local civilians in the massacres in addition to German soldiers -- 

https://audioboom.com/posts/5926803-black-earth-the-holocaust-as-history-and-warning-by-timothy-snyder-part-4-of-6?t=0

Book and all 6 segments wrt Tim Snyder's new book "Black Earth -- The Holocaust as History and Warning  -- now on my must-read-next book list. 

[Umbelina]

The husband wasn't a Nazi, or a collaborator.  He's dead too.

A raped teenager forced to drink, and quite drunk, right after watching her family die, and being forced to dig a hole and bury them?  While heavily armed soldiers surround her and will kill her, no doubt after a bit more gang rape and who knows what other torture, if she does not?

Any decent court would acquit her.

Those people were dead anyway, I seriously doubt they were worried who would shoot them.  If she didn't the soldiers would have.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The husband wasn't a Nazi, or a collaborator.  He's dead too.

A raped teenager forced to drink, and quite drunk, right after watching her family die, and being forced to dig a hole and bury them?  While heavily armed soldiers surround her and will kill her, no doubt after a bit more gang rape and who knows what other torture, if she does not?

Any decent court would acquit her.

Those people were dead anyway, I seriously doubt they were worried who would shoot them.  If she didn't the soldiers would have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but she went on to actually kill her people. My understanding is she did exactly what the centre said.....except for the fact there was a tragic backstory we got to hear. A jury most certainly would convict her imo. Especially one of her peers. I doubt they'd feel so understanding. 

The husband was totally innocent. But the same argument holds for her life- if E hadn't killed her, someone else would have. No doubt. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Erin9

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

But the same argument holds for her life-

It's the "leave no witnesses" policy.  If they left him alive, no doubt he would tell the police that she was killed by assassins for being a traitor to Russia in WWII, which would then bring the FBI and the CIA into the investigation.  Even with a faulty ID of Philip and Elizabeth, it would bring increasing heat on the Russians.  Too many questions would be asked.

[Fouts]

   19 HOURS AGO,  FOUTS SAID: 

We happened to live near Washington, DC in 1984-1985...right around the timeline of this show.  During those years, we got to see the FBI building on a public tour.  I have no idea what the security is like at the FBI now, but I can tell you a little what it was like then.  

To take a tour, all we had to do was show up at a certain time.  There was no need to make advanced reservations or get security checks.  While my husband was a military officer, he wasn't in uniform so that didn't make any difference either way.  The only restriction I recall was that we had to stay closely together as a group and they kept us all moving along at a good pace.  Once I tried to linger for a moment to better see a display they'd just pointed out, but immediately I was told to catch up to the group.  They kept us corralled pretty tightly from front to back.  

While we never toured the White House during those two years, we visited many other DC sites, and the FBI tour had the highest security of anyplace we experienced then.  I've been back to DC a few times since, and each visit I'm struck by the exponential increases in security.  

It's a huge building. I rather doubt they took you into the central area where FBI counterinteligence was dealing with stuff with the highest possible security classification.

Oops.  Just messed up above with the reply feature.  (New here.)  

I was just going to say that you are probably right about us not getting shown inside the most central area of the FBI building on our tour.  I just wish I could go back in time and see if I could hunt down Stan there and warn him that his buddy and neighbor Phillips isn't all he seems to be!

[VCRTracking]

"This week on Phillp and Elizabeth Jennings: Life Ruiners..."

Well that was depressing. I thought when they were given the mission either the woman would not be the person and innocent and they killed her or she was the person but Phillip would believe her story or let her live. I thought either would be too trite and I've seen it before. I've seen lots of TV shows with episodes about war criminals or collaborators hiding under different names after the war. I think while both P&E ended up having sympathy for Natalie, Phillip much more so, Elizabeth would have still thought she had been weak, and deserved a bullet. I think her wanting to go to Russia was mostly for the benefit of Phillip who is beyond done at this point. I really do hope she lives to see the Soviet Union fall in 1991.

12 hours ago, Addlepated said:

The actor who plays the husband looks just like someone to me.  Who am I thinking of?

I thought he looked like somebody too. I looked up the actor in IMDB and I haven't really seen him in anything. I think just any older actor with that much grey hair on top look alike to me.

Edited May 20, 2017 by VCRTracking

[MisterBluxom]

11 hours ago, Fouts said:

   19 HOURS AGO,  FOUTS SAID: 

We happened to live near Washington, DC in 1984-1985...right around the timeline of this show.  During those years, we got to see the FBI building on a public tour.  I have no idea what the security is like at the FBI now, but I can tell you a little what it was like then.  

To take a tour, all we had to do was show up at a certain time.  There was no need to make advanced reservations or get security checks.  While my husband was a military officer, he wasn't in uniform so that didn't make any difference either way.  The only restriction I recall was that we had to stay closely together as a group and they kept us all moving along at a good pace.  Once I tried to linger for a moment to better see a display they'd just pointed out, but immediately I was told to catch up to the group.  They kept us corralled pretty tightly from front to back.  

While we never toured the White House during those two years, we visited many other DC sites, and the FBI tour had the highest security of anyplace we experienced then.  I've been back to DC a few times since, and each visit I'm struck by the exponential increases in security.  

It's a huge building. I rather doubt they took you into the central area where FBI counterinteligence was dealing with stuff with the highest possible security classification.

Oops.  Just messed up above with the reply feature.  (New here.)  

I was just going to say that you are probably right about us not getting shown inside the most central area of the FBI building on our tour.  I just wish I could go back in time and see if I could hunt down Stan there and warn him that his buddy and neighbor Phillips isn't all he seems to be!

 

Very sorry. My mistake.

Edited May 20, 2017 by MissBluxom

[FormerMod-a1]

Please refrain for discussing politics outside of what occurs on the show.  

[Umbelina]

21 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but she went on to actually kill her people. My understanding is she did exactly what the centre said.....except for the fact there was a tragic backstory we got to hear. A jury most certainly would convict her imo. Especially one of her peers. I doubt they'd feel so understanding. 

The husband was totally innocent. But the same argument holds for her life- if E hadn't killed her, someone else would have. No doubt. 

You could very well be right @Erin9!  Honestly I thought the episode was mediocre and pretty boring/predictable (again!) and didn't watch a second time.  I would suppose she did if she got VD treatment from the Germans.  Still, that may have just been so they could continue to rape her. 

With what we know today about PTSD, Stockholm syndrome, and the little we know about her ongoing situation, it's difficult for me to judge her without that information, and given Elizabeth's biases, completely impossible for Elizabeth to judge her.  A psychic break is completely within the realm of possibility after watching her entire family killed and burying them, and then forced to kill herself after being gang raped.

I can say with a fair degree of confidence that any one of those 3 things might have broken me, especially as a teenager.

She should have been returned for trial IMO, let a court decide, not some fanatic killing machine from the KGB.  As for her husband being murdered?  That's cold blooded murder period.  There are no excuses for that.  At all.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Umbelina

[Haleth]

I was so hoping Henry would see a "most wanted" sketch of "Clark" and recognize his dad.  Darn.

Lots of possibilities for next season.  Might the family split up with Elizabeth and Paige going to Russia while Philip and Henry stay in the US?

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Lots of possibilities for next season.  Might the family split up with Elizabeth and Paige going to Russia while Philip and Henry stay in the US?

Even if there was a move to Russia, why would they split up this way? Elizabeth is wanting to go home FOR Philip. If he stays there's no point to her leaving and if she leaves there's no point to him staying.

Edited May 21, 2017 by sistermagpie

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-05-19 at 3:39 PM, Addlepated said:

The actor who plays the husband looks just like someone to me.  Who am I thinking of?  

There are a few Scottish actors whose looks strike me as very versatile. They often look like any number of other people. I can't quite remember all of their names. But many of their first names begin with "E".  I'm sorry if this isn't terribly helpful to you. But I've wondered the same thing myself and that is the best answer I have been able to come up with. James Franco is another possibility. I know he's not Scottish but the physical appearance of other actors often remind me of him. If you figure it out, I'd appreciate you posting that here because the same question has bothered me too. Here are some possibilities for you to consider:

    Ewen Bremner (born 1972)

    Eric Cullen (1965–1996)

    Ewan McGregor (born 1971)

    Euan Morton (born 1977)

    Ewan Stewart (born 1959)

Edited May 21, 2017 by MissBluxom

[rehoboth]

When the episode ended, I was thinking that Elizabeth was through with killing people for the Center.  And then I realized that I was assigning to her the same thought process as Phillip.  He sees the system as it really is and is through with blindly following orders. 

She is still a True Believer.  As such, it has been a bad year for her.  Their recent assignments have all served to illustrate how her system is not working, was not working and maybe never did work.  They have learned that they stole the virus (that they were told the Americans were working on in order to use it against the Soviet People after a nuclear war) in order for the Soviets to use it as a weapon in Afghanistan.  They learned that the wheat the they killed someone over was really going to be used to help feed the world (after being told the Americans were going to poison the Soviet wheat supply and starve the Soviet people).  And they learned that it was originally a Russian variety of wheat which begs the question why can't the Soviets develop their own Super Wheat from their local wheat and feed their own people instead of buying grains from the US?  It's plain that the reason is not that the Russians don't have this wheat, it's that their farming, storage and distribution systems are broken.  The system is broken.

I think Elizabeth wants to halt all this information being thrown in her face.  I think she would like to go home still a True Believer (her comfort zone) and knowing that all they did was necessary for the very survival of the USSR.  Instead, each new mission is strengthening Phillips views and disillusioning her.  Best to stop before all beliefs are shattered.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, rehoboth said:

When the episode ended, I was thinking that Elizabeth was through with killing people for the Center.  And then I realized that I was assigning to her the same thought process as Phillip.  He sees the system as it really is and is through with blindly following orders. 

She is still a True Believer.  As such, it has been a bad year for her.  Their recent assignments have all served to illustrate how her system is not working, was not working and maybe never did work.  They have learned that they stole the virus (that they were told the Americans were working on in order to use it against the Soviet People after a nuclear war) in order for the Soviets to use it as a weapon in Afghanistan.  They learned that the wheat the they killed someone over was really going to be used to help feed the world (after being told the Americans were going to poison the Soviet wheat supply and starve the Soviet people).  And they learned that it was originally a Russian variety of wheat which begs the question why can't the Soviets develop their own Super Wheat from their local wheat and feed their own people instead of buying grains from the US?  It's plain that the reason is not that the Russians don't have this wheat, it's that their farming, storage and distribution systems are broken.  The system is broken.

I think Elizabeth wants to halt all this information being thrown in her face.  I think she would like to go home still a True Believer (her comfort zone) and knowing that all they did was necessary for the very survival of the USSR.  Instead, each new mission is strengthening Phillips views and disillusioning her.  Best to stop before all beliefs are shattered.

Interesting analysis. I didn't see it that way, and am not sure I do now. But it all tracks and is very possible.

[RedHawk]

Was it stupid or did Oleg make an unintentional huge mistake? He said something like, "I can get you in." Seemed like he meant that his partner could just walk in with him. I took it to mean that Oleg was making a kind offer, without realizing that he could appear to be "testing" his partner. I was startled and thought Oleg might be testing his partner. The guy paused before answering and then said, "Do you want to ruin me? (pause) If I brought those things home my wife would never be happy with the regular foods again." Not only would she complain, she would probably push him to get higher in the party in order to obtain access to those better food markets.

It's like the boss who first told Oleg the story of being invited to a party, but knowing that at the party he would be bribed with special foods being offered "to take home to your wife" and that would involve him in the corrupt system. So he just didn't go to the party. What that said to me was that people couldn't trust other people, they couldn't even take the chance of going to a party because they might get implicated in something. Oleg might have been making a friendly gesture, after having been in the United States and being more free, but his partner dare not accept it, for fear Oleg would later use it against him. Distrust of everyone around you, so depressing, what a society.

And the partner may now have to think about reporting Oleg, if Oleg's offer to take the partner in was actually breaking rules.

Now I think I understand the silent Burov dinner. They all felt guilty about the good meal they had that so many others had no access to, and they know the system that so favors them is wrong.

Edited May 22, 2017 by RedHawk

[SlovakPrincess]

I can't even pretend to care about the Oleg plot anymore.  Which I feel terrible about, since I know they're trying to say something profound about Oleg's disillusionment with his government.  It's just ... such a drag and seems to go nowhere week after week.  

The Anna Prokupchuk actress was quite good.  But my God that was depressing.  I mean, I guess it was interesting to see that Elizabeth is still fucking ruthless, but is starting to feel worn down by all of this.  Philip had empathy, and could see that Anna / Natalie never had a choice in what she did in Nazi-occupied Russia (kind of like Philip's prison-guard dad).   But ... they can't just go "home" to the Soviet Union if that's what Elizabeth meant, because it won't be allowed.   This is not going to go well next week when they broach the subject with Claudia.  

I enjoyed Henry's little tour of the FBI!  Run, Henry, run like the wind away from your weird, miserable family!

Too bad Stan kind of threw cold water on Henry's enthusiasm, complaining about how he couldn't even open up to his own wife as an agent.   Gee, Stan, maybe that's 'cause part of your work involved your decision to sleep with an asset!

Edited May 23, 2017 by SlovakPrincess

[Christina]

Hours before the season premiere storms knocked the electricity out. I was upset that I was going to miss it, but then it came on with a few minutes to spare. That is the only episode I have watched twice this season. Before this episode aired, storms again knocked the electricity out, and I found myself not caring that I was going to miss an episode. Sunday at 4:00 a.m. I decided that I might as well get the episode out of the way, surprised that I was considering it a chore. This season has not held my interest, at all. The storylines are too stupid to get into, and even though I think I know why they are writing it the way they are, I don't care about it.

When William was buried instead of cremated, I said that the show had earned some leeway from me. They needed him to be buried, reportedly said on the podcast that they spent a large amount of money on that scene, went over time to air it, and I thought it might come back around with someone else digging him up and finding Hans. So far, the only thing that happened is that the Lassa sample was weaponized, and P&E learned they had been lied to, again.

Then we have the wheat storyline. The U.S. poisoning the grain was absurd on it's face, it was clear that they were trying to create pest resistant plants on the walk-through, to everyone but Elizabeth who believes everything she's told, still. I read that J&J said they hired a farmer to plant all the wheat for the scene where they dug it up, again at a large expense. Clearly, a film crew would tear up some plants, so I can see them leasing some land, but we didn't even need to see them dig up wheat, it's way below their pay grade, added nothing to the story, created a situation where Claudia now claims that they tested the wheat and it was stolen from them, and P&E have to keep working their marks for the next few years. Also, we have P&E saying that they are worn too thin, Phillip being hesitant with his mark, and Elizabeth finding herself surprised that she like hers, and disappointed when she caught him on a date with someone else. Phillip is angry that he killed an innocent man on bad intel, again, but this time he can't shake it. The wheat storyline has dragged all season, and I don't think there is anything that can come from it that will salvage it to me. On top of that, they told Paige about their mission and she bought it lock, stock and barrel, and we are supposed to believe she is studious and smart. 

The Paige character and Paige storyline are actually interesting to me, but I am one of the people who don't think Holly can pull it off. She has two tones of voice and two facial expressions. Either they have hired a coach to work with her and she can't do it, or they are fine with her as she is, and that is insulting to me as a viewer. Realizing that some of you think she is doing fine, too, but I really don't and we will not agree. Keidrich Sellati, on the other hand, does a great job and is woefully underused, in my opinion.

Phillip's burgeoning PTSD hit fever pitch this episode, and it was completely expected. I expected him to not be able to pull the trigger and for Elizabeth to do it. There really wasn't any drama or anticipation there for me. I don't need heavy action to get into a show, and P&E just talking has provided it in the past. They are spread too thin and spy work is often boring, well, it's boring to watch, too.

Tuan's storyline interested me up until they decided that bullying a teenager who is already miserable in the hopes that his mom will return to Moscow was acceptable, making P&E and Tuan bigger asses than they were already, and lost my interest in that story. I'm not sure if I am supposed to believe the brother phonecall story, but I can't be bothered to care if it's true or not, because the bullying storyline is so hateful. It is probably exactly what would have happened in real life in that situation, but it's uncomfortable to watch. Killing adults, innocent or not, shows P&E to be bad people, but doesn't make my stomach turn like the thought of a teenager committing suicide.

Stan has a girlfriend. Don't care. We are supposed to wonder if she is with a government, but that is too boring so I decided that she is stripper at a high price club, one that Stan can't afford, and she's afraid to tell him. If she's CIA or KGB or even some internal affairs person it doesn't matter to me and is completely uninteresting. 

Reading captions isn't my favorite thing to do because I like to watch the actors' faces when they are speaking (probably my problem with Holly), but think that it would be a worse decision for them to be in Russia and speaking English, so I applaud them for actually using Russian speaking actors for the parts. That storyline has also dragged all season, doesn't look like it will be resolved, and really seems like they could have moved it much faster with Oleg learning how broken the system is several episodes ago. I've lost interest in the storyline now. 

TL:DR I've lost interest in the show. They earned a mile of leeway from me but have taken ten. I will watch until the end so this is basically bitching to bitch because it won't change anything.

[millennium]

On 5/16/2017 at 11:27 PM, Shriekingeel said:

 

Being lowered into a vat of boiling oil is too good for our serial killers P&E. Don't think I've ever hated any television character as much as I hate these two. 

The annoying part is they know they're monsters yet keep up the pretense of Patriot Woman and Sensitive Conflicted Guy for their own little audience of two.

Anyway, I hate Paige more than P&E.

[NitneLiun]

6 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

But ... they can't just go "home" to the Soviet Union if that's what Elizabeth meant, because it won't be allowed.   This is not going to go well next week when they broach the subject with Claudia. 

I've wondered about that. Gabriel told them at least a couple of times they should go home. I don't think he would have done that unless he had already laid the groundwork with The Centre.  Of course Claudia will be upset and may even consider them disloyal because she is such a strident true believer. Gabriel is far more sensitive to the psychology of P&E and probably has a bigger heart than Claudia. I guess it's a matter of who The Centre finds more credible -- Claudia or Gabriel.

One scene earlier this season pretty much defines the difference between Gabriel's and Claudia's perceptions of P&E.  When Claudia said, "Nothing scares those two.", Gabriel quickly and emphatically responded, "Everything scares those two."

Claudia views them as machines. Gabriel sees them as two flawed, exhausted and conflicted humans.

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 2:39 PM, Addlepated said:

The actor who plays the husband looks just like someone to me.  Who am I thinking of?  

The actor, John Procaccino, played a judge on four episodes of The Good Wife in 2014.  That's the only thing among his credits that I've seen, so I must recognize him from there, as he looked familiar to me, too.

[RedHawk]

It's cute that Philip and Elizabeth think there's some sort of KBG Platinum Retirement package waiting for them in Moscow. I guess HR is holding the paperwork for their return. We saw what William's retirement looked like -- for all his sacrifices they ended up desecrating his already destroyed body for the Cause. RIP Vitaly and I hope Philip doesn't go looking for that stamp they never issued. 

With Gabriel's intervention these folks were finally allowed one "vacation" in 20 years and even then Philip had to keep working Kimmy, so it's not like the travel agents took their kids to on a month-long summer roadtrip to the Grand Canyon, Mount Rushmore, and Yellowstone Park. They are nothing more than machines to the KGB. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

15 hours ago, Christina said:

TL:DR I've lost interest in the show. They earned a mile of leeway from me but have taken ten. I will watch until the end so this is basically bitching to bitch because it won't change anything.

I did read the entire post and sadly have to admit that I agree with 95% of it. I used to really enjoy the second viewing, often noticing small things I'd missed or getting a better perspective on scenes. This season I haven't watched an episode twice since ep 2. The scene where they dug up William was foreshadowing -- there have been many long scenes since that dragged for no reason. I don't listen to podcasts and or read reviews anywhere, only read and post comments here, so the show runners being so proud of all the money spent to create these tedious scenes is a real head-shaker. Yeah, we saw that it takes a long time and a lot of exhausting work to dig a hole that big and deep. YAWN. (Hey, SRs, instead of growing an entire field of wheat, why don't you spend the money filming in actual DC or getting outdoor shots in the correct season? THAT would impress me.)

There have been things to like about this season, new characters (the Russian family, Ben) I've enjoyed, the scenes from Misha's journey and especially his meeting with Gabriel, some parts of Oleg in Moscow, Martha!, the surprise wedding. But yes, the idea of Pasha being bullied is absolutely stomach-churning, as I assume it's supposed to be, but it's also so very off-putting. Tuan and Renee seem rather wasted although I guess they'll factor more in the final season. Stan's boss is entertaining, but Aderholt seems unnecessary though I'd like to know more about him, and the Russian informant's story is likely to be painful and depressing. Oh, and Henry -- I want so much more Henry and it's getting doled out so slooowly. 

Yes, P&E are becoming disillusioned and melting down, we get it. I agree with those who think the show runners are making this season too much filler and too little action. (Of course, these last two eps could surprise us.) At least they aren't being forced to do the dreaded split-season final season that almost ruined "Mad Men" for me. 
 

Edited May 23, 2017 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

43 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Yes, P&E are becoming disillusioned and melting down, we get it. I agree with those who think the show runners are making this season too much filler and too little action.

What's bizarre is that it's not good filler. I mean, the best thing about the show for me are the quiet conversations. But somehow they've managed to get through a whole season where barely any conversations really stick with me because I often don't really get the importance of them or meaning of them or something. 

I've seen people make comments elsewhere about how they don't have time to deal with this or that, but in the past an entire season has been plenty of time to make us care about new characters and stories. Of course they have time. It's just this season it feels like they spent a lot of time without me feeling like I knew people better or that it was evolving in a particular way. We met William early in season 1 and I cared a lot about him by episode 11. 

[TheBride]

On 5/18/2017 at 4:59 PM, Gurkel said:

I can't even figure out what P & E and the Centre are doing anymore. I get that they're fighting for Soviet ideals, but are those ideals even realistic anymore? I think Oleg is learning the hard way that the USSR is not the place he thought it was--or is supposed to be. And I think Philip has boarded that train, too. 

Yes, the point is that P&E can't figure it out either! I totally agree about Oleg, I think he will end up in America--but it won't be easy!

[TheBride]

5 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I did read the entire post and sadly have to admit that I agree with 95% of it. I used to really enjoy the second viewing, often noticing small things I'd missed or getting a better perspective on scenes. This season I haven't watched an episode twice since ep 2. The scene where they dug up William was foreshadowing -- there have been many long scenes since that dragged for no reason. I don't listen to podcasts and or read reviews anywhere, only read and post comments here, so the show runners being so proud of all the money spent to create these tedious scenes is a real head-shaker. Yeah, we saw that it takes a long time and a lot of exhausting work to dig a hole that big and deep. YAWN. (Hey, SRs, instead of growing an entire field of wheat, why don't you spend the money filming in actual DC or getting outdoor shots in the correct season? THAT would impress me.)

There have been things to like about this season, new characters (the Russian family, Ben) I've enjoyed, the scenes from Misha's journey and especially his meeting with Gabriel, some parts of Oleg in Moscow, Martha!, the surprise wedding. But yes, the idea of Pasha being bullied is absolutely stomach-churning, as I assume it's supposed to be, but it's also so very off-putting. Tuan and Renee seem rather wasted although I guess they'll factor more in the final season. Stan's boss is entertaining, but Aderholt seems unnecessary though I'd like to know more about him, and the Russian informant's story is likely to be painful and depressing. Oh, and Henry -- I want so much more Henry and it's getting doled out so slooowly. 

Yes, P&E are becoming disillusioned and melting down, we get it. I agree with those who think the show runners are making this season too much filler and too little action. (Of course, these last two eps could surprise us.) At least they aren't being forced to do the dreaded split-season final season that almost ruined "Mad Men" for me. 
 

Mad Men is a good comparison. Just like Mad Men, there's no real reason for anything they do...except that they are living through good and bad times, and their "relationship" is tested. The writers of Mad Men revealed that. Even the end will just trail off. Next season will be better because they need to deal with the end of the Soviet Union--it will be each agent for themselves!

I am not on the fence about Elizabeth's character. I don't like her--she's damaged and crazy. I think Philip is afraid to think that, but he does...more and more.

[RedHawk]

We're in 1984 now on the show. I don't think they're going to jump forward 5 years for the final season  although you never know. I suspect something of a time jump to happen but not to 1989.

ETA: It wouldn't be that hard to age up Paige and Henry, so a time jump isn't as fsrfetched as I once thought. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

We're in 1984 now on the show. I don't think they're going to jump forward 5 years for the final season  although you never know. I suspect something of a time jump to happen but not to 1989.

Yes, people always claimed there would be some big time jump on Mad Men and...why? The plot twists don’t matter if we don’t know exactly where everyone is. Whenever people say we have to “see” the fall of the USSR and the characters’ reactions to it I just think...well, they’re staring at a TV or a radio looking shocked and confused. They’d be totally different people by then.

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, RedHawk said:

We're in 1984 now on the show. I don't think they're going to jump forward 5 years for the final season  although you never know. I suspect something of a time jump to happen but not to 1989.

ETA: It wouldn't be that hard to age up Paige and Henry, so a time jump isn't as fsrfetched as I once thought. 

Gorbachev became General Secretary in March 1985 - and launched Glasnost and Perestroika (among other reforms) in 1986. There doesn't need to be a time jump for P&E's world to change dramatically.

[RedHawk]

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Gorbachev became General Secretary in March 1985 - and launched Glasnost and Perestroika (among other reforms) in 1986. There doesn't need to be a time jump for P&E's world to change dramatically.

That's very true. I realize I was reacting to comments others have made in the past (on other threads) about how P&E will react when the Wall falls.

[Nash]

On 18/05/2017 at 1:36 AM, MissBluxom said:

I don't understand how anyone could love Russia - except perhaps the men (and by men I intentionally exclude all women) who head the various Communist parties and commissions. Everyone else is clearly treated like shit.  I suppose it's not as bad as people being shut up in concentration camps where they are either worked to death or starved to death. But for people who have visited or lived in Russia for any length of time, please tell me, if you can, where is the happiness in that country? Have you ever seen groups of people in public who are laughing and dancing and having a good time?  The only time that I can recall ever seeing such a thing was in April 1945 when the Russian army and the US army met up on the Ober River and everyone celebrated the end of the Nazis and the end of the Nazi party and the end of the war. Unfortunately, the war never ended and it seems like it just may never end (even if it's just a cold war that goes on). Aside from that, I need to ask, just where is the happiness in Russia?  Is there any?  I have hardly ever seen any happiness there except maybe when foreigners hand over some of their currency to Russian citizens and I can't imagine from whence any other happiness would spring? Well, maybe when someone has sex for the first time if they enjoy it?  Although it seems to me that many people who have sex for the first time simply do not enjoy it at all because no one has ever shown them how to enjoy it.  Having sex in Russia seems to be accompanied with a whole lotta voldka. Isn't it?  That's not for me.

Maybe young people who have been accepted to study with the famous Russian ballet company ... maybe they might display some happiness. But aside from them, who else would it be? Please, can you tell me?

I've not read the rest of this thread but think I'll comment on this now

Do you love your country? Not the politics or the system but the countryside, the humour, the people? Whatever it is?

The Russians rallied in 1941 to defend the RODINA, Mother Russia. Sure some were fighting for Stalin, for Communism but an awful lot more were simply Russians fighting for Russia because men in feldgrau invaded their homeland.

Russians love Russia because it's where they, their parents, their grandparents were born. Its. Their. Home. 

[Nash]

And so.....firstly my apologies if my above post was a bit, direct.

the collaborator plot line was, for me, in the context of the horror of the Eastern Front and the Soviet and Russian reaction to the Great Patriotic War - spot on. Very few Russians of P&Es generation would have had much sympathy and Claudia and Gabriel would have had no compunction - iirc Claudia used "our boys". I suspect E shot the husband first to make the traitor suffer (and get rid of the innocent witness) and I'm just suprised she didn't indulge in a brief "in the name of the people" before pulling the trigger. 

If your country hasn't been invaded you cannot comprehend the sheer hatred felt for traitors and collaborators, especially those with blood on their hands. In Russia, traitors die.

Yes, it's telling that it's this mission that pushes them to the edge. 

Olegs partner declined his offer of a bit of high class shopping because all his instincts shouted "its a trap" and frankly I don't blame him. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:27 AM, Shriekingeel said:

Ugh. This episode really ticked me off--I hate when fiction writers play around with the facts of WWII/Holocaust history for dramatic effect. Hate. It. (William Styron, I'm looking at you). 

The Nazis never used women in their execution squads. Never. The writers made it a woman just to be more manipulative. And the execution squads themselves (Einsatzgruppen) were specifically for the killing of Jews and "commissars", that is, Communist Party leadership. The Nazis felt no urgency to kill rank and file non-Jewish Russians: they were needed for slave labor in Germany, where they were worked to death in vast numbers. 

Also ordinary Russian (or rather, Soviet) people were killed too by the Nazis, either because they had helped partisans or as a multiple revenge when partisans had killed German soldiers, regardless of what those people had done or not done.

Also, it's a common method regardless of ideology to destroy the possiblility of the partisan movement by killing or carrying away those who help them ("take the water out and the fishes will die").         

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:39 PM, Milburn Stone said:

Although you didn't like the episode, the "on orders" part was the most interesting thing about it to me. When Elizabeth kills Natalie, she's really only doing it for one reason--because the Centre told her to. Which makes her exactly like Natalie, who killed because the Nazis told her to. Both have been psychologically coerced to murder coldly. In the car ride home, Elizabeth, because of the example of Natalie, begins to realize that for the first time.

I don't think Elizabeth was only following orders. She was genuinely angry about what Natalie had done. But I agree that the main purpose of this episode was to show that when Elizabeth says that "you're a monster" that she is blind to what she had become herself.  And like you said, in the care she begins to realize that.

Many have pointed out that there wasn't people like Natalie during the WW2 irl. But Aristotetle says that history tells about things that have really happened whereas poetry (that is, fiction) tells about things that might have happened. For that reason, I can overlook the errors of Natalie's background story and concentrate in the effects of meeting and killing her and her husband on P&E.

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 7:27 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

In spite of not being Jewish or Russian, I fully understand why they would give no quarter to Nazis or their collaborators whether 50, 60, or a 100 years old. P & E have killed people in furtherance of their missions, (what today we call "collateral damage"); the Nazi's sought you out & came to your house, because of who you were, to haul you and your children off to be gassed. Sorry, no quarter.

 

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 10:12 PM, DaveL723 said:

While I can certainly understand why the Centre would want to track down a collaborator/war criminal, having her assassinated like they did would serve no  real purpose politically or ideologically.  She would simply be the victim of some random home invasion murder that would have no connection to her past.  It would make more sense to me for the Centre to have P&E snatch her and  put her on trial in the USSR (like Israel did with Eichmann).  That provides them with a moral justification for executing her and lets her serve as example of what happens to collaborators and war criminals.  Alternatively, they could expose her in the US and get the US government to deport her; this has happened to war criminals found living years later in the States, although not sure if any were sent back to Russia.

While I understand Eulipian's reaction, killing without a proper trial isn't justice (although I don't accept the capital pusnishment even then), it's just what the Nazis did. Therefore I think I agree with Davel723: Natalie should either have brought to the trial or at least discredited in the press. 

However, while there certainly were collaborators who managed to flee to the Western countries by hiding their crimes, it was also the Soviet method to discredit people f. ex. in Estonia who had fought for the independence of their country against both Germany and the USSR by claiming that they had been war criminals. Thus, the Soviets could also claim that it was OK for their country to be incorporated by the USSR.  

The Soviet methods of disinformation are shown f.ex. in the novel by Sofi Oksanen When the Doves Disappeared:

https://www.amazon.com/When-Doves-Disappeared-Sofi-Oksanen-ebook/dp/B00TWQXRYO/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1508838506&sr=1-4&keywords=sofi+oksanen  

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 7:45 PM, Bannon said:

Gosh, if they had made their collaborator closely adhere to that actual example provided, and had made her motivation to murder Soviets be that they were A) party members (which may have well been mostly the case), and B)the party had persecuted her family horribly in the 1930s, that might have been interesting, if they unspooled it skillfully.  They could have used this arc for most of the season, instead of the wheat nonsense. Instead, they rush through this WWII arc in one episode.

I agree completely. That would shatter Elizabeth's constant claim that "the whole people stick to together". Actually, there were much, much more collaborators in the USSR than in other occupied countries. Also, it woul be a high time to ask why it's wrong when "they" do it (ultimately: kill people) but not wrong when "we" do it.     

[Roseanna]

On ‎18‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 1:36 AM, Umbelina said:

Side note, I watched Reds last night, and the commentary on the special edition DVD.  I especially loved the comments about why WWI happened, and the ideals that Elizabeth is fighting for make more sense, especially the rejection of religion as the opiate and control of the masses to keep them in their place as servants to the rich.  "If only" comes to mind, if only it hadn't been corrupted, the vast idea of not letting a very very few with endless money control the majority of the people in the world, and send them to die and fight in endless wars to make sure those very few get richer...  The idea of the majority of people seizing control does appeal to me.  It was the execution of it that sucked, and of course the fear of the very rich here that it would spread to the USA and end them.  I understand, partly, why Elizabeth still believes in the idea, but she's too old for the spirit of that revolution, the early goals and dreams...she was living in the disaster it became, she never ever experienced the highs, only the lows.

Actually, "the majority of the people" didn't seize control in the October coup which happened after the Bolsheviks had got a majority in the workers' and soldiers' Soviets in Petrograd and Moscow. But the Bolsheviks got only a quarters of the votes in the elections that were only ones that were free during the Soviet time.

It's true that the Bolsheviks offered the majority, namely the peasants, just what they wanted: peace and land. But instead of peace, there came the civil war which the Bolsheviks won because the peasants were mostly neutral. And it didn't take long when the land was taken from the peasants during the forced collectivization.

So the "lows" began right in the beginning. In order to hide them, there must be propaganda that the USSR was the best country in the world and all problems were due to the sabotage of the "enemy" inside and outside.      

[SusanSunflower]

There is so much ambiguity in this episode that rather than be "profound" it trivializes and, worse, really didn't tell or show us anything about P&E we didn't know before.  I don't believe that plan B (leaving without killing them) was ever a realistic option. Even if she was "her", that doesn't necessarily make summary execution appropriate for her ... certainly not for her husband.  P&E's job has increasingly involved killing people simply to eliminate witnesses, now they're assassins working from some Soviet/Centre vigilante justice hit list.  Regardless of sentiments about hunting down war criminals decades after the war has ended (The Reader's Hanna's fictional trial  was in 1965; most recent trials have been of guards in their 90's) it's always been controversial in much of the world if not in self-righteous fortress America. This episode rather brazenly ignored most of those issues and controversies. 

Too big and complex a subject to trivialize as a plot point, particularly given P&E's body count and peculiar collateral damage crime wave "cleaned up" by the Centre.  P&E seem to have fallen into the trap of allowing their "higher purpose" to justify whatever ... not always even claiming (as in earlier seasons) necessity, there was no alternative. 

Oh, I think "only following orders" is the preserve of people who have sworn to follow the orders of their superiors, it has little relevance to civilians, particularly those pressed into collaboration under duress (opportunists who collaborated for "nice things" -- food material reward, were especially despised)

Edited October 24, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

38 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

There is so much ambiguity in this episode that rather than be "profound" it trivializes and, worse, really didn't tell or show us anything about P&E we didn't know before.  I don't believe that plan B (leaving without killing them) was ever a realistic option. Even if she was "her", that doesn't necessarily make summary execution appropriate for her ... certainly not for her husband.  P&E's job has increasingly involved killing people simply to eliminate witnesses, now they're assassins working from some Soviet/Centre vigilante justice hit list.  Regardless of sentiments about hunting down war criminals decades after the war has ended (The Reader's Hanna's fictional trial  was in 1965; most recent trials have been of guards in their 90's) it's always been controversial in much of the world if not in self-righteous fortress America. This episode rather brazenly ignored most of those issues and controversies. 

Too big and complex a subject to trivialize as a plot point, particularly given P&E's body count and peculiar collateral damage crime wave "cleaned up" by the Centre.  P&E seem to have fallen into the trap of allowing their "higher purpose" to justify whatever ... not always even claiming (as in earlier seasons) necessity, there was no alternative. 

Oh, I think "only following orders" is the preserve of people who have sworn to follow the orders of their superiors, it has little relevance to civilians, particularly those pressed into collaboration under duress (opportunists who collaborated for "nice things" -- food material reward, were especially despised)

You say many good points,

However, I don't quite understand the last passage if you mean Natalie. She didn't act to get "nice things" like nylons, but had to choose between death or doing whatever to save her life. I don't think it's right to despise her if one hasn't been in the same situation. 

Thinking anew the plot, I don't understand why Center ordered Natalie to be killed (unless it wanted to ensure that P&E were still loyal). There certainly were many worse ex-Soviet war criminals in the US who had acted quite voluntarily. Her worst punishment would have been to destrou her life by revealing the truth to her husband, children and grandchildren, collegues and friends and make all of them despise her and abandon her.  

[SusanSunflower]

No, I just meant to acknowledge that not all collaborators could successfully claim they were "under duress" ... some just went along socializing with the enemy/occupiers/Nazi because it was gay, music, dancing, food, and occasionally presents and/or a better job ... simply opportunistic reasons.  Others got involved because "nature took its course" -- did you read Suite Francaise?  Well educated, handsome, german officer from a good family put up in a villa with two a woman and her mother in law (a disapproving woman) while the husband/son was a prisoner of war.  Hardly some bodice ripping romance, the two young people fell into a companionable friendship looked upon with suspicion ... nonpartisan love, lust and prostitution could also be labeled "collaboration" ... part of why the pursuit of "collaborationists" was so frought ... lots of old grudges could motivate people to finger enemies while better connected or wealthy collaborators got off scot free except for "rumors" 

No, I just meant to acknowledge that not all collaborators could successfully claim they were "under duress" ... some just went along socializing with the enemy/occupiers/Nazi because it was gay, music, dancing, food, and occasionally presents and/or a better job ... simply opportunistic reasons.  Others got involved because "nature took its course" -- did you read Suite Francaise?  Well educated, handsome, german officer from a good family put up in a villa with two a woman and her mother in law (a disapproving woman) while the husband/son was a prisoner of war.  Hardly some bodice ripping romance, the two young people fell into a companionable friendship looked upon with suspicion ... nonpartisan love, lust and prostitution could also be labeled "collaboration" ... part of why the pursuit of "collaborationists" was so frought ... lots of old grudges could motivate people to finger enemies while better connected or wealthy collaborators got off scot free except for "rumors"