S05.E19: Dangerous Liaisons

[bijoux]

15 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Regarding Team Arrow/Argus vs Team Felicity/Helix I don't think we we're supposed to view it in absolutes of right and wrong. I thought the writers showed both were right/wrong. Diggle questioning Lyla about due process and keeping an "innocent" man prisoner. Felicity questioning Alena (Elana?) Over her willingness to kill to get Caren. Oliver wondering if working with Helix was the right move all along? Etc

Agreed. Also, someone on Twitter described the episode not being so much Team Arrow vs. Team Felicity, as it was Felicity vs. Lyla with Oliver and Dig confused on the sidelines. It made me laugh.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Agreed. Also, someone on Twitter described the episode not being so much Team Arrow vs. Team Felicity, as it was Felicity vs. Lyla with Oliver and Dig confused on the sidelines. It made me laugh.

It describes the situation pretty well though. Felicity and Lyla were the ones giving orders and Oliver and Dig looked lost because they didn't know how to deal with the situation and the two women didn't ask for their opinions anyway, LOL.

[bijoux]

Oh, it's definitely in the it's funny because it's true category.

[Hiveminder]

Disregarding that dumb tracker, which I'm just going to have to not think about too much, I loved the Olicity parts. There was interaction, and emotions, and so much eye contact. there wasn't a single robot moment between them. 

Rene doesn't annoy me too much anymore, but I still fast forwarded through most of his stuff. Curtis just needs to shut up. 

[Mrs. de Winter]

6 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I like the idea that Felicity was talking about Oliver and William but I think you're giving them too much credit.

Quite possible.  But I don't necessarily think she was talking about Oliver and William - but was talking about the same issue which remains unresolved between them - that Oliver refuses to let her in as a full partner and reverts back to go it alone mentality.  The use of the word burden may have been a coincidence but seemed at least somewhat deliberate to me. 

I hope Marc's response about Chase includes him as the one who set off the EMP, otherwise I will lose some respect for Helix.  If they wanted to eliminate Felicity as a threat - because she is really the potential threat, not whatever tech the Arrow Cave has - they could have just killed her at the Helix location where they would have known she was alone and no one could help her.  They have been pretty effective so far and blowing the device in the Arrow Cave just seems too convoluted. 

And a big second, third, twentieth to the Curtis needs to tone it down sentiment.   And it needs to happen quick or he is going to be headed to the top of my list of acceptable cannon fodder. 

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

If they wanted to eliminate Felicity as a threat - because she is really the potential threat, not whatever tech the Arrow Cave has - they could have just killed her at the Helix location where they would have known she was alone and no one could help her.  They have been pretty effective so far and blowing the device in the Arrow Cave just seems too convoluted. 

When Elana/Alena was like we left something for you, look down, I thought for sure they were going to try and kill her. 

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, GirlvsTV said:

While I can appreciate this episode was a huge improvement in writing, I can't help but feel both Oliver and Diggle had no ground whatsoever to stand on with Felicity and Lyla.

They don't. Felicity said as much. 

 

1 hour ago, GirlvsTV said:

And on a totally shallow note, is it just me or does Stephen's hair look weird? Is it too long? 

Yes - SA said they were making him look rough on purpose. 

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh yeah I'm not saying that questions like that don't come up but usually it's with the Police Chief there, which means the question is really for them.  There was no Police Chief at this press conference, which was another stupid thing. That's like in S3 when they had Ray, LL, Capt. Lance and the Mayor giving a press briefing about The Arrow.

Yeah, whenever they have Oliver doing a press conference on Arrow, it never turns out good and you bring up an excellent point that the Police Chief should be there to take questions.  Oliver always looks like a deer in the headlights at this thing, spouting clichés. 

Quote

My main takeaway from this episode is that there is something apparently called "a line". I know this because the male characters spent the entire episode lecturing the female characters on this "line" and how crossing it makes you "go dark". This "line" is notable for being something that apparently doesn't apply to any of the male characters.

Yeah, that was my big problem with it too.

Also to bring up an earlier point about Diggle having a problem about black sites.  He has to know that Team Flash pretty much keeps a black site for metahumans.  Not as much anymore but still once and a while.  They were holding metas there without trial or any plan to deal with them long-term. 

Then of course, let's not forget about the time that Diggle and Team Arrow held Andy at their hideout for several weeks.  They can justify that as trying to save him from DD but still...

[Primetimer]

Felicity's running with a new crew, and they're either hackers or Jabbawockeez.

View the full article

[Mellowyellow]

OMG OMG OMG!!!!!

ARGGGHHHHHHH!!!! ARGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

*screeches louder than a Canary Cry*

*swoons*

Ok now that I've got that out of my system!

I had a good laugh at the boys looking helpless as Felicity and Lyla faced off. I'd love to see the script because there were some shots where they looked genuinely down trodden and helpless that their ladies have gone rogue.

At first from all the comments that I've read and from the screencaps I thought that Oliver was going to give Felicity some speech that would sum up to "Don't cross the line I'm a monster I'll do it, you're my beloved pure unicorn."

When I watched it my personal take on it was totally different. Oliver kind of went on and on and it felt like he was contradicting himself. Two things I noticed was his comment about not sheltering her from making hard decisions and that he "can't" let her do this. The fool just loves her. He should have gone for it and said "I love you, please don't do this. I'm freaking out that you're doing this. I  looooove you."

Meanwhile Felicity is all "You've had to sell your soul and I've realised I can sell mine to save you now.  So I'm going to totes do it, take on the burden and save you from further trauma."

Oliver: But Wifey you selling your soul is the biggest trauma of all!!!!!

OMG YOU TWO IDIOTS!!!!! Just go make Olicity babies and stop this nonsense. 

I'm so so so glad that Felicity was not played by Helix. Thank you show for letting me have a win. 

I don't blame Felicity for trusting Helix. It has always been a very upfront quid pro quo relationship and they've always keep their bargain. They just happen to be Argus enemies but Argus weren't peachy in this either so I was fine with her plot. 

OMG I LOVE YOU FELICITY!!!!!

SQUEEEEEEEEEEE

Edited April 27, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Also to bring up an earlier point about Diggle having a problem about black sites.  He has to know that Team Flash pretty much keeps a black site for metahumans.  Not as much anymore but still once and a while.  They were holding metas there without trial or any plan to deal with them long-term.

I thought the hypocrisy was that he was upset that it was on American soil.  Whether you have it in the US, or Guantanamo Bay or get the Libyans to do your dirty work for you, holding people without a trial and especially if they haven't committed any crimes is just wrong.

I'll give the a slight pass on the pipeline on The Flash since everyone there had committed a crime and the team assumed that the metas were too powerful or dangerous to let the public know about them.  That time has passed, however.

8 hours ago, bijoux said:

Even with Chase actually being in the bunker, I don't trust Helix as far as I can throw them. For one, Alena got over killing a person awfully easily and then proceeded to get guns for hire with a smile on her face. Plus, she armored that thing back up to shoot at Dig. I can't imagine Felicity being thrilled about it when she finds out.

I think Alena definitely falls into the grey area; interesting that it was the women this episode, Lyla, Felicity and Alena who were all about the need to be Machiavellian while Oliver and Diggle were standing around going WTF?

But I don't see her and Helix becoming the bad guys for this season.  I think Arrow is going to pull them out in a later season but there are only four episodes left and they have to use it to wrap up Chase's story.

Felicity's relationship with Helix really did end up very much of a quid pro quo -- she got their help finding Susan, unmasking Chase and later finding his whereabouts; they got her help hacking the drone and getting Cayden James out of ARUGS's hands.  (I agree with @tvecho that has to be an anagram of another name, Cayden is just too weird otherwise.)

I can understand them wanting to cut ties with Felicity because she works with Team Arrow and ARGUS but it really doesn't make sense for them to try to kill her.

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I really don't know why I'm supposed to root for this non self starter.  He passed out cause of his drinking and she got burned.  But again, even after he stopped drinking, he doesn't even go see her? And this is after her mother is murdered. I could maybe get him thinking he shouldn't be in charge of taking care of her, but that was one forgiving kid, not even bringing up him basically abandoning her.  That's horrible. 

I know!  He's not even trying to put her needs ahead of his own and do what's best for his kid.

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The one point I will give to Felicity is that while she ended up choosing Helix and going against TA, she never lied to them about it. She basically said here's the play back me up and, when they refused she told them I'm doing it anyway.

And she has every right to be furious at her "partners" that they didn't when she's backed them up every time except when they didn't give her a chance to think about it (e.g. breaking Diggle out of prison).

And unlike when Oliver and Diggle pull that kind of stuff, she's not even doing it for her own vendetta, she's doing it to catch Chase, who is a psychopath and a serial killer, because what the guys are doing isn't working.

[Chaser]

Reading this thread, I can't wait until I'm able to watch this episode.

[bethy]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

This "line" is notable for being something that apparently doesn't apply to any of the male characters.

But I thought the point they were trying to make was that the "line" did apply to the men - Oliver and Diggle had crossed it in the past and didn't want that for Felicity or Lyla. I'm not saying I didn't have a problem with all the lecturing and lack of support, but I didn't see the threat as the men saw it as something that was only relevant for the women.

[Delphi]

I have to say,  its not exactly a secret that Argus happens to be shady as fuck and does all sorts of illegal things.  They have a team called the Suicide Squad, with bombs in their heads.   They're certainly not called the Happy Go Lucky Volunteer Squadron.   I get that Dig is worried about Lyla crossing a line,  but it feels sort of contrived.   Like, Lyla has made her positions clear for years now and suddenly its too much for him?  I'm not sure I get it makes sense or if they were just trying to parallel Olicity with Dyla.

And why isn't their ship name Dilyla, that rolls off the tongue so much better. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Delphi

[ladylaw99]

I enjoyed this episode.  Did it all make sense no - but if I have to believe that they live in a world with magic and metas then I can roll with it not making sense.

I like that the characters actually had conversations, granted some of it made me shake my head but at least they were talking.  

Why do they have to mess with Dyla.  It makes no sense that they would have this problem again.  This should not be a surprise to Diggle.  I agree with others that Diggle should know her position, this is not new.  I personally don't think they will break up.  Also, am I the only one that doesn't see this chemistry between Diggle and Dinah?  I don't think it is anything special.

I am also on the train that Curtis got on my last nerve.  Please stop show, I already have a low tolerance for the newbies, don't press it.

I didn't mind Dinah except for the super pose.  Less is more show.  I still can't stop rolling my eyes with the canary cry.  I will say I prefer JH over KC's cry.

I loved all the Felicity moments, whether with Oliver, OTA, Lyla, Alena etc.  

I agreed with someone who said that if you take out the newbies it would be the same, they really add nothing.  Lance and Thea (if she was there) could have handled the press while OTA would take of the rest or Lance could handle the press, OTA and Thea could have handle the rest.  I am thankful that the newbies are in the background, now keep them there.

WD - well I really tried to like him but i can't.  The show took to long to show a softer side of him. Who in their right mind is going to give him custody of his kid?  Where is she going to go when he is out with the team? Why can't we keep kids out of this show.   It is bad enough that we Oliver's kid.  Sara (I refuse to say she didn't exist) works because of Lyla.  WD going to start a relationship so that there is someone to take care of the kid. No thank you.

I am looking forward to 5x20.  I hope it doesn't let me down.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, bethy said:

But I thought the point they were trying to make was that the "line" did apply to the men - Oliver and Diggle had crossed it in the past and didn't want that for Felicity or Lyla. I'm not saying I didn't have a problem with all the lecturing and lack of support, but I didn't see the threat as the men saw it as something that was only relevant for the women.

I took it as Lyla and Felicity were the ones who tended to keep everyone else on the side of "right" as the show has defined it. I don't think it had much to do with the men vs the women as in the women should never do questionable things or that they were being particularly patronizing but more like 'well, shit if these two are crossing lines, then the line is a dot for Oliver and Diggle (TM Joey Tribbiani)

[ohjoy]

Gosh this had some good little moments. Oliver's "not quite as subtle as I want to be" reactions whenever his friends threw him a curveball just amused me greatly - first his face when Diggle came out of left field with that "I'm not the one who was going to marry her" comment, his literal hand wringing in the face of Felicity's "you don't trust me." I know those were supposed to be serious moments, but they were delightful to me all the same.

 

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Maybe the ambiguity is the answer. 

Heh - there's the quote for the season.

 

7 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The Olicity scenes were great. So intense. The actors bring out the best in each other, really great work. My favorite was the dialogue in the loft. They are both self sacrificing idiots. (I say this with love :) )

Gah, just kiss and make up already. :-)

 

6 hours ago, GirlvsTV said:

And on a totally shallow note, is it just me or does Stephen's hair look weird? Is it too long? 

YES, thank you - I think it is too long. I was actually thinking that in the middle of the episode. It looks better when it's a bit shorter.

[ComicFan777]

...still can't get over Felicity's lines: "You don't have to carry that burden any longer. Let me do it"...
and seeing that Oliver so shaken that he had to get a drink after seeing those words in action...I'm so glad that someone finally noticed Felicity's willingness to sacrifice herself this season.

[Chaser]

I saw a gif of Dinah's pose, smirk, quip and it reminded me of that kid telling Laurel she is so strong. Beat over the head STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER.

[tennisgurl]

You can tell this is the episode where Felicity goes Dark, because she's rocking that super badass smokey eye (pun totally intended), which she looks awesome in!

I really liked this episode, it seems like the show is really getting back on track. Not that it was a perfect episode, but it was a really good one, with lots of focus on characters I actually care about, and some interesting moral questions being asked. Personally, I don't think the episode was exactly showing ARGUS or Helix as either all good or all bad. It reminded me a bit of some of the best storylines from Peron of Interest, where you had these shadowy government agencies violating civil rights with the intent of stopping violence and destruction, and you also had these anti authoritarian types breaking laws and causing chaos in the belief that the governments ends didn't justify the means. I see the ARGUS vs Helix arguments to be similar. They both made good points, while also showing that they were capable of sketchy or even evil actions. Whos the worst, the shadowy government strike teams trying to stop threats to society, with a fascist streak, or the also shadowy hacker group that breaks laws and endangers people in the belief of transparency and freedom, with an anarchist streak?

I really LOVED all of the Olicity scenes we got this week! Even if your not an Olicity shipper, its clear to me that Steven and Emily just have great chemistry, and work wonderfully together. They're both great on their own, but they totally up each others game whenever they get together. I took Oliver's speech to her to be basically be like "I know what its like to cross lines you cant uncross, and I don't want that for you", while Felicity was like "You've done so many things you hated doing for a greater good, and I know its hurt you, and your still recovering from a horrible trauma, and I want to take some of that burden from you". They were both coming from a position of care (or love damn it, love!) for each other, but neither of them were willing to back down or compromise. Its sad that Felicity feels like she has to do sketchy things to catch Chase, but its clear that she just wants to catch a terrible monster who hurt people she loves, and will continue to be a threat. They just give me so many feels! I missed you guys!

I like Dinah, but she needs to stop with the lame forced Girl Power lines during fight scenes. Either come up with better badass lines, or say nothing at all. Also, SHUT UP CURTIS! Oh my God, early Felicity never chattered this much, especially during a mission or what is clearly an emotional moment. Every time the guy starts getting better, he gets more annoying.

Speaking of being annoying but also sometimes alright, Wild Dog continues to get WAY too much screen time. Its great allowing Quentin to be an awesome mentor figure, and at least the actor is less annoying, but I really don't care about him getting his daughter back. Really, why does he deserve getting her back even? Yeah spilling the water was an accident and she wants to go back to him, but that makes the whole thing worse. This poor kid saw her mom die, and how does her dad respond? By getting drunk, accidently getting her burned and taken away by social services, and then never visiting or getting in touch with her. Instead of trying to get his life back together for her sake, he just acted like a pissed off teenager, put on a stupid hockey mask to fight crime, and apparently never bothered to look up his daughter to see if she was alright until Curtis found her ages afterwards. If people didn't keep forcing him to try to care about her, he probably wouldn't have so much as sent her a Christmas card for the rest of her life. Why should she be stuck with this guy who cant be bothered to fight for her? Her foster mom seems nice, why take her away from that?

Chase is in the bunker! THE CALLS ARE COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!

Edited April 27, 2017 by tennisgurl

[tv echo]

I really enjoyed this episode. However, I did think it was a bit inconsistent on the trust issue. When Felicity told Diggle and Oliver to let that Helix merc go free, Oliver trusted Felicity enough to comply with her wishes. But he didn't trust her enough to back her play with Helix? Maybe the issue isn't one of trust, but one of control or leadership?

Nevertheless, I loved, loved, loved all of the Oliver/Felicity and Diggle/Lyla scenes. Really good acting.

As for trusting Helix, I just think that Felicity was desperate to find Chase before Chase did any more damage. No one else could find Chase - not Team Arrow, not ARGUS, not Homeland Security, not the SCPD.  Without Helix' help, they never would've exposed Chase as Prometheus in the first place. So they had a good track record with her.

As one of the media reviews pointed out, the Helix team was using rubber bullets and that's why no one was killed in that big shoot out at the ARGUS black site. Of course, I'm sure the ARGUS gun turrets were using real bullets, so Alena turning those turrets on Diggle was telling about her character.

During Mayor Queen's press conference, I kept waiting for Susan to pop up with a question - you know, doing her job?  Did she leave Star City? Why is she never at Oliver's press conferences when major events happen in the city?

I don't like to criticize kids, but the child actors hired for Arrow just are not very good. Also, I viewed that whole Rene's daughter subplot as Step 2 or 3 in the EPs' Plan to Make Wild Dog More Likeable. But hey, I liked seeing Quentin again.

It would be interesting if we find out next season that Alena/Kojo & Cayden James are like the evil versions of Felicity & Oliver. Like, Alena was Cayden's support, partner and lover, while Cayden was the leader of their team. Alena started out innocent but became corrupted by Cayden's "end justifies the means" attitude. And so on.

Another possibility (as someone upthread suggested) - "Cayden James" is another alias for Noah Kuttler (Felicity's father) - that ARGUS took Noah from whatever prison he was in and hid him away while they interrogated him. That would also bring up the possibility that Alena could be Felicity's half-sister. But I guess we won't find out the truth until next season.

At first I thought the name "Cayden James" was an anagram, but I can't for the life of me figure out what it could be.  Now I think using such an unusual name might have some symbolic or hidden meaning. So I Googled "Cayden" and got these results...

Quote

Cayden is a spelling variant of Caden which is derived from a Gaelic surname, Mac Cadáin (meaning son of Cadáin). The Gaelic word “cadáin” possibly means ‘battler, fighter’ but the etymology is up for debate. It’s also thought the name is derived from Adam, the first man, which would give the meaning ‘ground, earth.’ The MacCadáin clan was responsible for maintaining and managing the church land in their Scottish localities, a position they held from late medieval times into the early modern era (which would lend the name nicely toward Adam’s meaning; i.e., taking care of the church ‘ground’). Cayden is a very modern given name, originating only this century, and distinct to the United States.

http://www.ohbabynames.com/meaning/name/cayden/1329

Quote

The name Cayden is of Arabic origin, and is used in more than one countries and different languages of the world, especially Arabic speaking countries, English speaking countries among others.
*  *  *
The meaning of Cayden is “Companion; fighter”. Keep in mind that many names may have different meanings in other countries and languages, so be careful that the name that you choose doesn’t mean something bad or unpleasant. Search comprehensively and find the name meaning of Cayden and its name origin or of any other name in our database. Also note the spelling and the pronunciation of the name Cayden and check the initials of the name with your last name to discover how it looks and sounds. The history and meaning of the name Cayden is fascinating, learn more about it. (If you know more meanings of the name and you would like to contribute click here to submit another name meaning).

http://www.thenamemeaning.com/cayden/

Quote

[C]ayden Pronunciation of Cayden [cay-den]▲ as a boys' name has its roots in Scottish and Arabic, and the meaning of the name Cayden is "son of Cadán; companion". Cayden is an alternate spelling of Caden (Scottish): from the Scottish family name McCadden. Cayden is also a variation of Kaden (Arabic).

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Cayden 

ETA: A media reviewer suggested that "Cayden James" is simply a tribute to author Martin Caidin, who wrote the novel Cyborg, which was the basis for The Six Million Dollar Man tv show.

Edited April 27, 2017 by tv echo

[tennisgurl]

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Felicity getting closer to the Dark Side was all a part of Chases Evil Plan. He found out that Felicity had a hacktivist background, and he knows that she still loves Oliver, even after they broke up, so he guessed that she would take drastic action and fall into old habits to protect Oliver, and would become more morally grey, which would make Oliver even more guilty and miserable, blaming himself for making the woman he loves become a darker person. Maybe he even has a person inside of Helix who pushed them together faster. Yeah its super elaborate and requires a lot of knowledge and guess work, but Chase seems to know everything about everything, so I think he could pull it off.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

It would be interesting if we find out next season that Alena/Kojo & Cayden James are like the evil versions of Felicity & Oliver. Like, Alena was Cayden's support, partner and lover, while Cayden was the leader of their team. Alena started out innocent but became corrupted by Cayden's "end justifies the means" attitude. And so on.

I was hoping that Darhk and his wife would mirror Oliver and Felicity last year and that was dead in the water. I'm not getting my hopes up easily again.

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

.

The fact they kept 'Cayden James' hooded makes me think he's Felicity's father. Although, would he try to kill his daughter? Not sure.

That was my thought process as well but when I thought Helix was behind the explosion in the lair and specifically the EMP pulse that would take out her chip, it just seemed too cruel even if he wasn't trying to kill her.  BUT if Chase is behind it, it puts Noah back on the table.  It does make Lyla a hell of a lot MORE shady though cause snatching up your friends father is pretty bad.  And since Felicity had him publicly arrested, we can't claim she wouldn't have known.  Also, did Noah seem like the type to develop a biometric tracker?  That seems out of his wheelhouse.  Still, possibilities!

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

I saw a gif of Dinah's pose, smirk, quip and it reminded me of that kid telling Laurel she is so strong. Beat over the head STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER.

I also had to laugh that she had the Bo staff in this episode since recently MG said he pretty much thought any other weapon was cooler than that one.  

[way2interested]

Tbh, I never thought that Cayden James was her dad because of the way Alena was talking about/to him. Kind of gave me a lover/closeness feel between them, especially since she was ultimately ok with incidental murder (or purposeful, in the case of shooting at Diggle) to get him back.

[Delphi]

Do we know that it's an EMP pulse yet? 

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Delphi said:

Do we know that it's an EMP pulse yet? 

Spoiler

Felicity says it in the promo for 520

[Mellowyellow]

I found it kind of adorable at the end how she drove him to drink. 

He's been through torture and goodness knows what but Felicity throws herself in front of a gun that HE was holding and he's all dazed and needs to drink! 

Despite trying to stop Felicity in this episode and not backing her I found Oliver very likeable.

LOVED that they stood down and let the mercenary take the key without knowing why just because Felicity asked. 

[MariaHill]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You can tell this is the episode where Felicity goes Dark, because she's rocking that super badass smokey eye (pun totally intended), which she looks awesome in!

Hahaha, I remember when they did the same thing with Lauren on Alias. She started out the season with normal makeup but as she gradually got shadier every week, her eyeliner got thicker and darker. 

[KirkB]

Even though I know the show runners are apparently too in love with the newbies to ever get rid of them, I think this episode is a pretty good indication of how much they are impacting the narrative, IMO. Dinah, Tina, whatever her name is, didn't really contribute anything. She was just there. If she hadn't been it wouldn't have made a difference. Curtis, who I seem to recall being fairly popular when he first started, seems to be a caricature. Stopping in the middle of a mission to wax poetic about a video game is something I would expect from Cisco on the Flash, only he'd make it funny, his makeup still looks goofy to me, and he didn't contribute much but his t-spheres. And then there's Rene. I have nothing against the character, but why are chunks of the episode devoted to him and his family life (which is fine, I guess, for his fans) when it could have been better spent on Oliver, Felicity and Diggle (you know, the actual stars of the show) or even Chase, the bad guy they're after who couldn't be bothered to show up. As for Helix, they seduced her with how helpful they have been, she knew they were shady and ignored it since they exposed Chase and saved Susan. I don't think she ever really trusted them, she just may have misjudged how twisted and criminal they really were because she needed their help, turning a blind eye allowed her to be caught off guard, it doesn't make her foolish.

[Delphi]

I think Curtis was popular last year because last year he worked as a character.   He was fun when he was at Palmer Tech working with Felicity and not taking so much screen time.   He doesn't work this year because he's, objectively speaking,  pointless.   He's a vigilante... so what,  we have vigilantes.   And he's terrible at it.  

But then again if he's not a vigilante he's tech support,  which doesn't work because it's again a position that has already been filled.  Which turns out to be much worse because even though we have gotten used to the revolving door policy of instant masks the fans certainly don't want him taking away Felicity's screen time and effectively doing her job.   There's a reason Emily was promoted to regular,  the fans loved her and certainly don't want her overshadowed by "Mister Terrific".

[tennisgurl]

I really liked Curtis last year because he was a nice person who was really supportive of Felicity, and was just a reoccurring character who didn't take up much screen time. He was funny and likable, and gave Felicity someone new to play off of, who could geek out about tech stuff with her in a way that Oliver or Dig couldn't. It wasn't until he insisted on joining the team and becoming a vigilante that I (and I think other people) started getting sick of him. Maybe it was because we didn't see as much of him, but he wasn't as forcibly comic relief last season, and he actually had a purpose on the show. Now he's just another newbie who sucks at fighting, and the one thing he is good at (tech stuff) we already have Felicity for, not to mention tons of other, better characters Team Arrow can call in about two seconds. He doesn't serve a purpose anymore that makes him unique, and his constant jokes aren't funny now that we see him all the time, they're annoying. Also, Mr. Terrific? Really? On a good day, he's Mr. Meh.

*sigh* Why did we lose Ragman again? The only newbie that was actually unique and had a point?

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, Delphi said:

I think Curtis was popular last year because last year he worked as a character.   

He was popular last year because he was a black gay dude in a happy relationship, something that appeals to a portion of the fanbasr.  Well, they took the husband away.  Maybe they will take more time away from OTA to give a Curtis a storyline next season where he moves on and starts dating again as a contrast with grim main storylines.  He works better as comic relief, but to be comic relief on a team of vigilantes, he has to be portrayed as incompetent.

If he works best as tech support, but is redundant with Felicity on the team, then the best use of the character may be to build him up before killing him off in a self-sacrificing moment to create team angst over his death.

[tv echo]

Another way in which this episode was an improvement over a lot of past episodes this season? We didn't hear multiple characters say the episode title repeatedly in order to drive home some theme. In fact, I don't think anyone in this episode said the words "dangerous liaisons" at all.

My favorite scene in this episode (video posted by Olicity Queen)...

Edited April 28, 2017 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

That's a terrific scene, partly because of the actors but a whole lot because of the writing. Finally the show is willing to go beneath the surface of "fight bad guys!" and get into the motivations of Felicity as well as Oliver and into the dynamics of their relationship.  I'm still worried about the next episode but this was very well handled and long overdue.  And overdue not just in terms of seeing Oliver and Felicity talking again but in Felicity being allowed to call him out on his stuff again. That's what she's been doing ever since she looked sceptical about his laptop getting bullet holes in the coffee show but they haven't let her do it all season it seems.

I love that Felicity's look is getting darker as she does.  The writing in 5A went way too far in "bubbly, ditzy blonde" stereotype.

43 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

He was popular last year because he was a black gay dude in a happy relationship, something that appeals to a portion of the fanbasr.

Just for me, it had nothing to do with him being gay or black.  I think it was partly because he was a fun, optimistic character and played really well off EBR.  I liked the PT storyline with them, Felicity trying to find a way  not to fire people and Curtis, who wrote the algorithm that fired him (making me wonder just how good his algorithms are) and then the two of them coming up with something to save the jobs and the company. 

I think it it's important for the show to have something other than the Arrow bunker going one  In the first two seasons that was Moira and Queen manor. Season 3 didn't have anything and I think it suffered so I'm glad they've brought an outside base back.  But really, while I'm glad that Thea has something to do this season, for me Felicity's problems at PT was a lot more interesting than Oliver screwing up being mayor and dating Susan and a lot more than Lance babysitting Rene.

I think part of the problem with Curtis is that they were seduced by the fact that Mr. Terrific has a place in the comics, and partly because the EPs love Cisco so much on The Flash.  But once they got him on the team, they didn't know what to do with him.  Too much of his time in 5a was spent either being incompetent or taking over jobs Felicity should have been doing.  I think he's a bit better lately in terms of doing more with the engineering which is his area of specialization and less with IT and the storyline with Paul dumping  him was really depressing and yet not written enough.

In terms of being out in the field, I think the writers should make use of the fact that he is an Olympic bronze medalist and have him do the athletic stunts along with his T-spheres as Rene pulls out his guns and Dinah screams and wields her staff.

[ladylaw99]

Wow, watching that again just shows how great they are together.

That really is a great scene.

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I think it it's important for the show to have something other than the Arrow bunker going one  In the first two seasons that was Moira and Queen manor. Season 3 didn't have anything and I think it suffered so I'm glad they've brought an outside base back.  But really, while I'm glad that Thea has something to do this season, for me Felicity's problems at PT was a lot more interesting than Oliver screwing up being mayor and dating Susan and a lot more than Lance babysitting Rene.

I think one of the show's biggest problems this season has been a dearth of non-lair or non-lair related scenes and I consider the mayor's office to be an extension of the lair coincidentally kept a Felicity free space. Something like 80% of Oliver's interactions with Susan even took place at the mayor's office. I hope that Felicity will be allowed outside of the lair next season and will get a PT/Smoak Tech storyline that can include Curtis. I liked the Helix storyline because even though it was mission related it was outside the lair and I liked those scenes with Curtis at Helix or Helix related. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by leopardprint

[tangerine95]

This was a really good episode,I was already excited for it but it was better than I expected tbh.

I love how they're playing out Felicity's storyline.Usually when people go "dark" on the show,they act ooc but her actions totally make sense to me and feel like a long time coming. I hope the helix storyline continues in season 6,they're a good nemesis for Felicity.

The olicity scenes were amazing,it finally feels like they stopped pretending with each other and are acting like themselves again.The conflict actually feels earned and makes sense with the past seasons.Also finally they mentioned the fact that they were engaged,I was kinda shocked lol.Oliver's reaction tho does support imo that he really doesn't think his opinion or support means that much to Felicity anymore or that she wants him to talk to her.He seems suprised when Digg told him he's the one that can pull her out of it.Also I don't get the insistence in interviews on putting this on Billy,that's not what they're writing at all.

I didn't really get why Digg and Lyla have issues tho,Digg seemed fine with a bunch of people getting punished with no prosecution before.I mean Oliver killed petty criminals as recently as this season,Digg himself held his brother in a cage,team arrow has a prison on the island etc.Felt a little like the angst was contrived to parallel with olicity more than anything.

As for the newbies they continue to be irrelevant and contribute nothing really.I'm less annoyed with Rene rn but I don't care about the stuff with his kid.Dinah continues to be wallpaper and they're trying a little hard with her but compared to the last BC,I'll take her any day.Curtis tho is beyond annoying to me.They seem to be trying for some mix of Felicity and Cisco with him but imo its falling flat.He's useless as a fighter,unnecessary as tech support and not even working as comic relief.

Edited April 28, 2017 by tangerine95

[BunsenBurner]

My brother and I watched this together today, I had already seen it.  He does not read anything about Arrow because he just wants to see it when it airs. While watching he asked me if this show was about team Arrow and Lyla (ARGUS) against Felicity and if she was supposed to be the bad guy. I asked why and he said she was the only one who showed any brains in going after Chase. He is not necessarily a Felicity fan and he was pro Felicity and anti everyone else. He also felt that Felicity was using Helix just as much as they were using her. He also would like to get rid of nuBC, Rene and BC.

[Delphi]

Quote

 He also would like to get rid of nuBC, Rene and BC.

 He wants to get rid of Laurel again?  Wow.   That's an intense hatred.   Don't get me wrong,  I totally get it but its kind of overkill at this point. 

[Mellowyellow]

I've watched the Oliver/Felicity scene so many times and I still can't believe they let her make that speech about carrying his burden. I have been skeptical at times but I don't think they can go in any direction but Olicity after that speech. 

To borrow a quote from a review by Chris King that @tv echo kindly posted:

Seriously, if that’s not love, I don’t know what is.

[Chaser]

Finally able to watch the episode. 

The Olicity was fantastic. So strong. I love that Felicity didn't pull her punches and I like how Oliver approached her. Not all judgemental and overbearing.

It was great to see Felicity do her own thing. I had a hard time understand why exactly they weren't supporting her though. Yes Helix is shady but no shadier then Argus and Helix did free Diggle and helped expose Chase. It would be one thing if we were shown how bad James was but we were just told and not very convincingly either.  There just seemed to be a disconnect.

I had a hard time with Diggle. I enjoyed his scenes and it was nice to see him with Lyla and the OTA ness, but I didn't get his cluelessness. Does he not know who he married? Argus wasn't going to go legit just because Waller was gone. And the whole outrage over lack of due process, Hello Flash! And I strongly doubt Deathstroke got a trial. It was weak.

Negatives for me: I didn't like BCs moment but I didn't mind Dinah (so not too negative). This was the must annoying Curtis has ever been. The Rene/Lance subplot was so disjointed from the A Plot. Did they ever explain why he wasnt involved?

[leopardprint]

Finally was able to finish watching the episode. A loose collection of random thoughts. 

1. Why isn't Lance the Mayor? Lance should be the Mayor. He can even bring Picture of Doom: The Sequel. 

2. Am I supposed to feel bad for Wild Dog who basically abandoned his daughter? Also did he just deposit the kid at CPS and peace out to go vigilantiing? 

3. Questionable moves aside, Lyla and Felicity just bypassing Oliver and Diggle is pretty hilarious. 

4. I understand the loft scene is supposed to be about Oliver inspiring heroes not just psychopaths but I do wish it had been less about him. Felicity's entire storyline this season has been some method of supporting Oliver and he has just not done the same for her. (Or maybe I am just dead inside.) 

5. Diggle is pouting. Stop making Diggle sad, show!

6. I hate, hate, hate Oliver's mask. 

7. If you go to savethemanatee.org they have an audio recording entitled "Angry or Frustrated Manatee." That is what the Canary Cry sounds like. 

8. Oliver and Diggle's sanctimony would play a lot better if the worst thing Helix has done wasn't accidentally kill someone and free a hacker. (hmmm who else do we know that accidentally killed someone?) They're the palest gray compared to ARGUS' charcoal. 

9. Shallow: Oliver looking rough this episode and I didn't like Felicity's eyeshadow of existential darkness paired with that severe ponytail. 

10. Do you think Dinah is having second (third or fourth) thoughts about joining this team? She seems too chill for these people. Dinah seems fine, BC has the same issues as the previous one. 

11. Oliver's Canadian shows whenever he says "sorry". 

Overall, this episode is a vast improvement for this season. I still don't care that much about the new characters but Curtis didn't actually annoy me that much. 

I wasn't completely satisfied with Oliver and Felicity's conversation but at least they are talking to each other and Oliver is starting to realize that he has failed Felicity. Oliver's general confoundment with Felicity was pretty amusing. This episode made me sad for her and how alone she must feel. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[BunsenBurner]

5 hours ago, Delphi said:

 He wants to get rid of Laurel again?  Wow.   That's an intense hatred.   Don't get me wrong,  I totally get it but its kind of overkill at this point. 

This has been ongoing since the Pilot. He always makes a comment as soon as she appears it is never complimentary. 

 

Saw this on Twitter can't remember who sent it but thought it was interesting if true. 

[AudienceofOne]

7 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

9. Shallow: Oliver looking rough this episode and I didnt like Felicity's eyeshadow of existential darkness paired with that severe ponytail.

But without that and all the male characters intoning "the dark side" over and over again, how are you going to know that her actions are WRONG when she's behaving in the same way as every other person on the show?

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

But without that and all the male characters intoning "the dark side" over and over again, how are you going to know that her actions are WRONG when she's behaving in the same way as every other person on the show?

By seeing she was siding with someone who felt no remorse in the idea of murdering people just to get what she wanted?

Edited April 29, 2017 by way2interested

[leopardprint]

20 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

But without that and all the male characters intoning "the dark side" over and over again, how are you going to know that her actions are WRONG when she's behaving in the same way as every other person on the show?

LOL! I guess she matches with Oliver's disheveled duds of despair. We'll know if she's really turned evil when her roots start showing. 

[AudienceofOne]

4 minutes ago, way2interested said:

By seeing she was siding with someone who felt no remorse in the idea of murdering people just to get what she wanted?

Must be Tuesday

Basically, Felicity and Lyla in this episode were behaving like the male characters. The male characters couldn't handle it. This was not an episode about THE DARK SIDE. It was an episode about paternalism.

Now, we could argue the morality of that behaviour. I give this show a lot of credit for at least trying to do that. Sometimes intelligently, sometimes inexplicably, sometimes childishly. But when Felicity said the problem was Oliver not backing her play, she was 1000% correct.

[Hiveminder]

43 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

This has been ongoing since the Pilot. He always makes a comment as soon as she appears it is never complimentary. 

 

Saw this on Twitter can't remember who sent it but thought it was interesting if true. 

I know things can get pretty weird in comics, but ew. Maybe they ripped off Nolan for Arrow because they couldn't figure out how to bring comics faithful Ollie to TV without making him the villain. 

[way2interested]

Just now, AudienceofOne said:

Must be Tuesday

Basically, Felicity and Lyla in this episode were behaving like the male characters. The male characters couldn't handle it. This was not an episode about THE DARK SIDE. It was an episode about paternalism.

Now, we could argue the morality of that behaviour. I give this show a lot of credit for at least trying to do that. Sometimes intelligently, sometimes inexplicably, sometimes childishly. But when Felicity said the problem was Oliver not backing her play, she was 1000% correct.

But if the problem is Oliver not backing her play, as you said and I agree with, how is that "paternalism"? Sounds pretty much just like a partnership problem which has been pretty consistent with Oliver and Felicity's (and Diggle and Lyla's) relationship issues, and not a misogynistic problem.

Idk, I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with it and just personally don't like when the idea of misogyny is thrown around as fact (personal issues/experiences, nothing to do with this). Just going to agree to disagree, and sorry for starting anything.