S05.E08: Immersion

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I liked the juxtaposition of Henry happily hanging out with his friends on the couch ... with Paige later sprawled on the couch alone and aimlessly clicking the TV remote.  She is isolated and depressed.  

I giggled at the recreation of the "Mod Squad" on the couch playing videogames. 

I agree that it's time for Paige to bust out in full-on teenage rebellion or jump off a bridge or seduce a teacher or something. I'm tired of listless Paige and her worried eyebrows. Do what normal '80s teens did, Paige, get drunk with a friend and go for a joyride in daddy's Camaro! 

Oh, I forgot she's still a church-going Christian. At least ask dad for more driving lessons. Isn't she 16 yet?

Edited April 27, 2017 by RedHawk

[tennisgurl]

As others have said, this show is just so ridiculously depressing. I hold onto the few happy or funny moments like life preservers in a stormy ocean. Its not like every other season wasn't sad too, but this season is somewhat lacking in a big plot arc to tie everything together or give us moments of action and suspense to break up all the sadness. This season is filled with lots of character building stuff, which isn't bad, but everyone is so beaten down and miserable, or they're ignorant of what's going on, most of the season is just the tales of sad people living their sad lives. Its not a bad season or anything, but I do wish the plot would pick up a little bit.

I like Sofia, but I don't see things working out well for her. She seems too...nice? I just don't think she can keep up with all the stress of spying for long periods of time. I hope we don't have to see poor Pasha get bullied so badly his mom takes him back to the USSR. He is already miserable enough, do they have to pile it on? I mean, would they really want to go back? Granted, I don't know much about how defection works, but I don't think its really normal for people to just come back after defecting, unless they have someone important to speak for them.

Oh dear, it looks like Oleg isn't as out of trouble as he thought he was. I knew he didn't have any evidence in his room, but I still felt super intense watching his room getting tossed, and his parents trying not to look pissed off or worried. Seriously, I will throw my TV if Oleg ends up getting killed or worse over actually being a decent person. His poor mom is a tough lady, but I don't know how she will be able to handle losing BOTH of her sons, in such a short period of time, over political stuff.

I laughed really hard at Philip announcing he had been dumped by that boring lady. And then Elizabeth was all "no sweetheart your still pretty, I promise" when he started basically wondering if he was too old for this shit. But of course he knows how to get the ladies back on the hook. No one can resist Philip when he turns on his A game! It really is sweet seeing her very honestly telling him how great he is, and how open and supportive they are with each other. It was nice to get some moments of humor and sweetness in between the constant sadness.

I like Paige, but I need her to get some less screen time, or to really start moving towards a real plot with her. There's only so long I can be excited by watching her mope around the house, and occasionally talk with her mom. It does lead to lots of good Elizabeth moments (like her telling Paige about how she dealt with being raped), but its still a drag. Even for a show that LOVES taking its time.

[Umbelina]

After last season when SO much happened, and relatively quickly, this is just so slooooooowwww.  It's all turned into sadness rather than danger or tension.  I get it, everyone is sad!  Must we be sad as well?

That said, there have been some good moments, and Oleg's scenes have tension and history and I think at least there, we will have some resolve.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Claudia clearly expected those relationships to be maintained with more than a phone call explaining that they're too busy. 

I thought this was interesting, because with Elizabeth and Ben, at least, a phone call was a legit way to maintain the relationship. She doesn't have to fly out to Topeka all the time. He doesn't need handholding from Elizabeth anymore than Deirdre does from Philip. I agree that Elizabeth's feelings are affecting her more this season, and that made her decide not to see him, but it was also probably a good call for the op in general—it's reasonable that plans fall through every now and then. Plus, both Elizabeth and Philip have gotten as much information as they're going to get for the time being. It seemed to me Claudia wants the relationships continuing just in case, not for any immediate need.

[jrlr]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

I giggled at the recreation of the "Mod Squad" on the couch playing videogames. 

I agree that it's time for Paige to bust out in full-on teenage rebellion or jump off a bridge or seduce a teacher or something. I'm tired of listless Paige and her worried eyebrows. Do what normal '80s teens did, Paige, get drunk with a friend and go for a joyride in daddy's Camaro! 

Oh, I forgot she's still a church-going Christian. At least ask dad for more driving lessons. Isn't she 16 yet?

I agree!  Jeeze, Paige, cut and bleach your hair, get a tattoo of Jesus on the cross, and hit the road with a metal band, just do SOMETHING a teenager would do.  After all this time I still can't figure out if the actress isn't up to the part or the part is so boringly written that even a good actress couldn't do much with it.  

[crgirl412]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

As others have said, this show is just so ridiculously depressing. I hold onto the few happy or funny moments like life preservers in a stormy ocean. Its not like every other season wasn't sad too, but this season is somewhat lacking in a big plot arc to tie everything together or give us moments of action and suspense to break up all the sadness. This season is filled with lots of character building stuff, which isn't bad, but everyone is so beaten down and miserable, or they're ignorant of what's going on, most of the season is just the tales of sad people living their sad lives. Its not a bad season or anything, but I do wish the plot would pick up a little bit.

I like Sofia, but I don't see things working out well for her. She seems too...nice? I just don't think she can keep up with all the stress of spying for long periods of time. I hope we don't have to see poor Pasha get bullied so badly his mom takes him back to the USSR. He is already miserable enough, do they have to pile it on? I mean, would they really want to go back? Granted, I don't know much about how defection works, but I don't think its really normal for people to just come back after defecting, unless they have someone important to speak for them.

Oh dear, it looks like Oleg isn't as out of trouble as he thought he was. I knew he didn't have any evidence in his room, but I still felt super intense watching his room getting tossed, and his parents trying not to look pissed off or worried. Seriously, I will throw my TV if Oleg ends up getting killed or worse over actually being a decent person. His poor mom is a tough lady, but I don't know how she will be able to handle losing BOTH of her sons, in such a short period of time, over political stuff.

I laughed really hard at Philip announcing he had been dumped by that boring lady. And then Elizabeth was all "no sweetheart your still pretty, I promise" when he started basically wondering if he was too old for this shit. But of course he knows how to get the ladies back on the hook. No one can resist Philip when he turns on his A game! It really is sweet seeing her very honestly telling him how great he is, and how open and supportive they are with each other. It was nice to get some moments of humor and sweetness in between the constant sadness.

I like Paige, but I need her to get some less screen time, or to really start moving towards a real plot with her. There's only so long I can be excited by watching her mope around the house, and occasionally talk with her mom. It does lead to lots of good Elizabeth moments (like her telling Paige about how she dealt with being raped), but its still a drag. Even for a show that LOVES taking its time.

I really liked that she told him that basically she thinks he's "hot" too.  SO nice to see sweetness with all the depressing stuff going on!! 

[Clanstarling]

On 4/25/2017 at 11:41 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Elizabeth asked Margo Martindale where she's been, I was hoping she'd say, "In Kentucky making moonshine and kicking ass!"

 

On 4/26/2017 at 0:53 AM, vb68 said:

Or trying to help get this cheater from Chicago with a difficult wife elected President. 

Or running a bail bonds shop in Connecticut. Margo gets around and kicks ass wherever she goes.

On 4/26/2017 at 5:55 AM, Erin9 said:

A poster mentioned watching The Handmaid's Tale. Having read the book, that'll be non- stop depressing if it follows the book. It's pretty  dark. 

Yeah, I've read it. I decided there was enough darkness in the stuff I watch, not to mention real life.

On 4/26/2017 at 6:33 AM, shura said:

Ah, but Tai Chi looks like slow kung fu, it's so much cooler that EST, which looks like slow... thinking about things?

My take is that EST appeals to Philip because he's the emotional one, and Tai Chi appeals to Elizabeth because she works out  her emotions physically.

On 4/26/2017 at 11:48 AM, Umbelina said:

I'm glad for Deidre.  Not all women are Martha, longing to get married above all, and easy honey trap fodder.

She allowed Gus because she wanted to add something to her life, a little sex, maybe a few laughs, not to become her life.  She seems quite happy with that, loves her job, has respect, doesn't need some clingy man trying to take it over or remake it.

He was the cherry on top of the dessert, not the whole meal to her.

This is spot on.

On 4/26/2017 at 1:25 PM, Helena Dax said:

I'm worried about Tuan's warnings. I don't think he's going to do something awful, just that some neighbour may have noticed he's alone most of the time.

I am as well. I got the sense that he was anticipating something specific, not just a general absence of parents.

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Okay.  Please allow me to REALLY nit pick.  When E was talking with the lady about the Immersion dinner she said that EVERYONE had to only speak Russian. But, then, when E asked her if they all spoke Russian, she then says, no, they can only say "Thank you and Where is the rest room," or something like that.  So, why have that rule if that's all they can say?  Odd, imo. 

Immersion is the best way to learn a language. Even if you don't know much, you start picking up a lot more once you can't relax into your own language. You learn from those around you. I went to German school for a year, along with another American girl. I requested full immersion, whereas her teachers spoke English to her. I was fully fluent fairly quickly, she never was. When my daughter wanted to become a translator, because of my experience, we chose to pay for a year abroad so that she'd be fully fluent in her chosen language (still paying it off, we're not rich). It got her a job. :)

[Erin9]

On 4/26/2017 at 8:33 AM, shura said:

 

Ah, but Tai Chi looks like slow kung fu, it's so much cooler that EST, which looks like slow... thinking about things?

It's interesting. I can get the point of EST. I can see value in it. It's self help, kinda therapy. Tai Chi? I watch and think: what a waste of time. That scene where Ben was showing Elizabeth how it worked was torture for the simple  fact that I was so bored watching them slowly move. I can't imagine actually taking the time to do it. I'm sure it has value, but it has no appeal to me. 

[Bretton]

Time for another express-the-pet-peeve post.

Seeing 5' 4', 115 pound Liz telling, 5'1 '', 95 pound Paige that once you train how to fight you never have to be afraid - made me roll my eyes into the back of my head. That comment only adds to the silliness of watching Liz pound the crap out of men twice her size on a fairly regular basis.

Don't get me wrong, the right self-defense techniques can get you out of difficult binds - from time to time. But to pretend that training would allow a tiny woman to regularly pummel people twice, if not three times her size, is ridiculous.

It's kind of a silly cliche in Hollywood. In other to supposedly empower women, which I'm all for, we see these silly scenes - over and over again. We can empower people without denying basic biology in the process. Verisimilitude is important, after all, when it comes to dramatic television.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Bretton

[Umbelina]

About Tuan, once again, practically begging Philip and Elizabeth to be there more.  Maybe it isn't just loneliness?

Tuan is supposedly a high school kid, who has a home where the parents are rarely, if EVER, there.  They leave for days at a time, in reality, I doubt they've even spent the night with him.

So, if he really was just a high school kid, what problems might there be?  The first thing I thought of was high school friends wanting to have parties, or use his house to have sex.  The second thing was snoopy neighbors noticing that this teenager was basically all alone for the vast majority of the time, and possibly reporting that to cops or CPS. 

If it has to do with adult spy Tuan though, maybe he's being tempted elsewhere?  A girl, a guy, or possibly even another agency/ideology?    I hope we get some answers soon, those have been pretty heavy hints he's dropping.  Philip always ignores them, but it seemed like Elizabeth took it more seriously, and even said "OK."

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

It's interesting. I can get the point of EST. I can see value in it. It's self help, kinda therapy. Tai Chi? I watch and think: what a waste of time. That scene where Ben was showing Elizabeth how it worked was torture for the simple  fact that I was so bored watching them slowly move. I can't imagine actually taking the time to do it. I'm sure it has value, but it has no appeal to me. 

I took Tai Chi for a while (as a martial art, though I never really got to the fighting level or even close) and it is kind of funny how she just apparently picked up a bunch of slow movements by standing next to Ben and copying him. I mean, the way I took it you learned like one position each lesson and then practiced each one for an hour. You didn't just watch somebody make a movement and do it with them, you have to try to concentrate really hard on the alignment etc.  I honestly don't know what Elizabeth's supposed to be getting to it that she couldn't get from slow dancing alone in her bedroom. And if she's learned like the whole series, exactly how long are we supposed to think she worked on this with him? All this time she could have taken a yoga class and probably kicked ass!

1 hour ago, Bretton said:

Seeing 5' 4', 115 pound Liz telling, 5'1 '', 95 pound Paige that once you train how to fight you never have to be afraid - made me roll my eyes into the back of my head. That comment only adds to the silliness of watching Liz pound the crap out of men twice her size on a fairly regular basis.

This is why I get worried when people assume there should be a scene coming up where Paige defends herself against attacker(s). Many people honestly thought that Elizabeth should have just somehow disarmed the guy in the parking lot as if she would have had control of the whole thing. I still don't think Paige ought to even be at the level of her 10-year-old father or brother! (Though if it's just about making her feel not afraid that's an end in itself.)

 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

So, if he really was just a high school kid, what problems might there be?  The first thing I thought of was high school friends wanting to have parties, or use his house to have sex.  The second thing was snoopy neighbors noticing that this teenager was basically all alone for the vast majority of the time, and possibly reporting that to cops or CPS. 

He did let them know he was doing things to make it look like they were home, and I assume he doesn't have enough friends for anybody to be planning parties at his house. But I agree it does seem to be more than just Tuan being lonely. If only because it's seemed so much like he's just lonely.

[renatae]

On 04/26/2017 at 2:53 AM, vb68 said:

I think Elizabeth is somewhat in denial about Ben. Not that he's some great love, but her doing tai chi on her own shows he has left an impression. She admires him for sure. I still think she might very well try to turn him.

I definitely got the feeling the reason she wanted to back off is that she may be having some feelings for him and wants to avoid an emotional entanglement which would be a first for her.

[SunnyBeBe]

The searching of Oleg's room has me baffled.  WHY was that done?  Oleg seems pretty confident that it wasn't the CIA or FBI who tipped them off, right?  I m not sure what point there would be to tip off the KGB as to what Oleg has done, if they want to use him for their purposes.     Because now, he's on their radar. How is he going to be useful to the USA if he's under the eye of his own government?    If they still wanted to recruit him, they would have shown up at the meetings, right?   And not  refused to show up and tip off his indiscretion to the Russians? 

Edited April 28, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[qtpye]

12 hours ago, Bretton said:

Time for another express-the-pet-peeve post.

Seeing 5' 4', 115 pound Liz telling, 5'1 '', 95 pound Paige that once you train how to fight you never have to be afraid - made me roll my eyes into the back of my head. That comment only adds to the silliness of watching Liz pound the crap out of men twice her size on a fairly regular basis.

Don't get me wrong, the right self-defense techniques can get you out of difficult binds - from time to time. But to pretend that training would allow a tiny woman to regularly pummel people twice, if not three times her size, is ridiculous.

It's kind of a silly cliche in Hollywood. In other to supposedly empower women, which I'm all for, we see these silly scenes - over and over again. We can empower people without denying basic biology in the process. Verisimilitude is important, after all, when it comes to dramatic television.

 

This is the thing.  I can get that Elizabeth with her toughness and background can be a good fighter.  I too roll my eyes at how she sometimes has Buffy the Vampire Slayer super strength.  I have seen very petite women (I am fairly petite as well) become good martial arts fighters.         However, Paige, with her lack of muscle town and mousy demeanor is ridiculous.  One of the reasons you see the tiny woman who can beat people up is that casting agents like dainty women.  I do not mean just skinny women, but dainty.  I remember someone in the industry said that the type of person that looks good on camera, is someone with tiny little body and a slightly too large head...a bobble head?  They do not tend to cast the more muscular type of actresses that would be more believable in these roles.  I mean I think we were all supposed to gasp when Paige pushed Mathew roughly last episode at her strength, but I was reminded of a toddler pushing people away when they are throwing a tantrum. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

The searching of Oleg's room has me baffled.  WHY was that done?

 

I think that's the point. When you're a guy in a sensitive position in the USSR, not to mention with the past Oleg has, you can't know for sure. Oleg has good reason to not think the CIA or FBI intentionally tipped anybody off.

23 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 However, Paige, with her lack of muscle town and mousy demeanor is ridiculous. 

Yes, for all that Elizabeth made that big speech about how you have to be ready to do anything to protect yourself, Paige just doesn't have that. She continues to give off zero sense of having much of a survivor instinct. Pushing away Matthew was an expression of her own stress--a child would do the same. 

[qtpye]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, for all that Elizabeth made that big speech about how you have to be ready to do anything to protect yourself, Paige just doesn't have that. She continues to give off zero sense of having much of a survivor instinct. Pushing away Matthew was an expression of her own stress--a child would do the same. 

So lets break down Paige:

1. Does not have anything in the way of fighting skills, beyond plot armor.

2. Can not keep secrets without great stress

3. Can not handle even the most basic lie, even to be diplomatic or savvy

4. Has the mental and physical toughness of a baby bunny rabbit

I think that equals perfect spy material in Elizabeth land.

Edited April 28, 2017 by qtpye

[kokapetl]

Having a big, expressive face is probably an asset for an actor. Holly Taylor's face is very expressive. 

Elizabeth should probably be teaching Paige how to grab something close by and use it as a weapon. Elizabeth's fight with Patterson was awfully close, he saw her first weapon (a syringe filled with sedative) and she couldn't use that, but a metal paper towel dispenser eventually gave her the edge (he's the guy who had Zhukov killed, Claudia eventually killed him). And she stabbed the would be rapist in the throat with his own knife. Totally unarmed women don't usually win fights on this show. 

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think that equals perfect spy material in Elizabeth land.

LOL! I read this and was hearing the old opening to the 6 Million Dollar Man in my head ("We can rebuild him..." only it was Elizabeth saying "I can rebuild her...").

I worry sometimes when it seems like the show seems to be implying that this is actually working and Paige is totally becoming spy material. But then it also seems like the show is explicitly playing Paige as somebody who is terrible at this with the bad consequences to show it. 

I wonder, for instance, if that diary thing was a one-time thing or if she will do something stupid the next time she babysits that will make Pastor Tim a problem again. Elizabeth told her not to spy on him, but of course she also had to tell her that it was very brave and wonderful for her to do so, and the scene ended with Paige acting as if she was a soldier who had to be able to make hard decisions in battle.

I wonder what would happen in that case. I feel like the Tims would blame her parents as a bad influence (when they were in charge of Paige she was perfect!).

4 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Elizabeth should probably be teaching Paige how to grab something close by and use it as a weapon.

Like her brother!

6 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Totally unarmed women don't usually win fights on this show. 

Yes, in the clinch the thing that usually wins it for Elizabeth (except when she fought with the Israeli, which was iirc pretty unrealistic--and she was unarmed with Timoshev as well, but he had been tied up for however long at that point) is that she knows how to seek out a weapon and uses it fatally. Which was actually what upset Paige in the parking lot. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Kokapetl said:

Elizabeth should probably be teaching Paige how to grab something close by and use it as a weapon. Elizabeth's fight with Patterson was awfully close, he saw her first weapon (a syringe filled with sedative) and she couldn't use that, but a metal paper towel dispenser eventually gave her the edge (he's the guy who had Zhukov killed, Claudia eventually killed him). And she stabbed the would be rapist in the throat with his own knife. Totally unarmed women don't usually win fights on this show. 

This. If you are small, you need an equalizer, no matter how good you are. I am tiny, and back in the day I lived in a sketchy neighborhood. I didn't have any marital arts skills, but I kept a crowbar next to the sofa to use if anyone broke in. I intended to get in close and jab up (stab) instead of swing it, if that ever happened. You can get disarmed easily if you swing it. For some reason, I always check out what can be used as weapons when I'm anywhere. I've never, ever, experienced violence, but I was raised in the military by a hot headed southerner.

[albaniantv]

Paige doesn't get off the couch or bed much since she ditched Matthew, and seems almost paralyzed with depression and fears. Reminds me of when the hormonal Dana Brody of Homeland also became depressed as she figured out her father was not who he pretended to be. Maybe the writers like the extra danger a teenager represents with uncertain loyalties, unknown emotional and behavioral limits and untested tolerance for stress and fears. It's definitely making me nervous...especially since I have moody teenagers in my life right now and would not want to have to depend on them to decompress in a safe way, keep my secrets or stay alive.

What bothered me even more this episode though was that Elizabeth and Matthew were opposite in almost every issue or skill that came up. Summing up Gabriel, hard ass Elizabeth went all wobbly, admitting she would miss him and stating firmly he was a good person, while for the first time I could recall, Philip was misanthropic, stressing only the negative aspects of the man and doubting that they were more than an assignment to him. Usually the more skilled one with technology, Philip acted like he lost his nerve and know-how with the large camera Elizabeth grabbed and shot effortlessly undercover of the thicket near to the motel. Needing Elizabeth's suave suggestions to get back in the game after being dumped by a mark, Philip is suddenly as clumsy in faux affection as his wife is in the real thing. (That was a terrible sentence but I am in a rush to get somewhere, sorry.)

Similarly, as Paige's depression deepens, Philip appears to recede from her. It's not just that he can't come up with any relevant stories (like from his past the way Elizabeth does, ever since she started talking about her own mother to Paige), he seems as horrified by Paige's outlined future as she does and can offer no alternative vision or distraction. We have not seen him buddy up to Henry since became an adolescent ( which may be why realistic Henry has consistently searched out Stan) but we have seen him try to engage or mollify or even distract Paige. But no more; Philip seems overcome by what they have done to their daughter.

Somehow, Elizabeth does not seem to take any responsibility for Paige's situation (teenage secretkeeper and spy in training for a country and philosophy she has been raised to fear and loathe). This may change as the dangers loom larger (we are definitely inching up some magnum gauge roller coaster) but right now, Elizabeth seems oblivious to the dark future Philip sees and Gabriel glimpsed as he made his hurried exit from the (no longer safe ?) house.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, albaniantv said:

Similarly, as Paige's depression deepens, Philip appears to recede from her. It's not just that he can't come up with any relevant stories (like from his past the way Elizabeth does, ever since she started talking about her own mother to Paige), he seems as horrified by Paige's outlined future as she does and can offer no alternative vision or distraction. We have not seen him buddy up to Henry since he became an adolescent ( which may be why realistic Henry has consistently searched out Stan) but we have seen him try to engage or mollify or even distract Paige. But no more; Philip seems overcome by what they have done to their daughter.

This is something I've definitely wondered about too. I'm not sure if the show is intending it completely this way, but it really does seem like all the parenting on the show has gradually come down to Elizabeth and Paige. This season seemed to start with this set up of Philip having all these sons, but so far the main thing we've seen about those relationships is that they've all been stunted. Philip and Tuan earlier had father/son scenes, we had Mischa making his way to America, Philip was suddenly remembering his own father. But by mid/late-season Henry's appeared very occasionally to be dismissive (the single conversation he's had all season was with Stan), Tuan begging for more time he doesn't get and Mischa turned back at the border. Philip's figured out his father was a guard...is that it for that? Meanwhile Elizabeth and Paige continue to have all these bonding scenes like they have had since s3. It feels honestly as if the show just still sees Elizabeth as the parent who needs to start working at it. They have ongoing training sessions and take walks where Paige asks her more about herself.

Meanwhile Philip has become the parent one kid describes as "never around," and the other kid thinks was having an affair (remember Elizabeth mentioning that fact to Gabriel and he just said "But he still trusts YOU"). And as you say, even when it comes to Paige, Elizabeth has this clear (if misguided, imo) path ahead that she's happily leading Paige down, and it's not just about the spying. It's also about Elizabeth getting to be known by her daughter.

Meanwhile Philip still doesn't seem know himself. And maybe that's intentional, like all this is going to come together. The work's cut out for them. But sometimes it seems like every time I think that it doesn't happen. And now time's running out. They clearly feel that Elizabeth/Paige requires a lot of time spent with Paige learning to understand Elizabeth step by step, the most important moments and influences in her life.

I guess it makes sense given that since s1 Elizabeth was the parent who longed to be known. Philip was happy to just disappear into his fake persona--and now we know that apparently he grew up in a "don't talk about it" family. But Philip is also the one going to EST to know himself and the one who actually had that realization about how it's sad to not know your parents. But I could honestly believe that the point of that very realization was to get Elizabeth to make the breakthrough of telling her trauma story again and not for either kid (or the audience) to know Philip.

I think this is one of the things that makes the depressing show even more depressing.

[madam magpie]

On 4/26/2017 at 9:16 AM, dubbel zout said:

The other amusing exchange was when Elizabeth said she'd have liked to have been a doctor if she hadn't been a spy, and Paige told her her bedside manner was nonexistent. Hee. I liked that Elizabeth was self-aware enough to know that was true.

Loved this.

I also really liked the scene where Elizabeth tells Paige about the rape. She breaks for a split second and then is right back to badass mode. Keri Russell played that so perfectly.

Dierdre breaking up with Phillip was hilarious.

[AllyB]

I think one of the big differences with Philip and Elizabeth and their marks are that Elizabeth very rarely has to build a relationship with the person she is honeytrapping. She mainly figures out what they like and initiates a sexual relationship, or a relationship built on one obvious aspect of their personality that she can keep most of herself detached from. (Like with Brad who she got to steal files on Larrick after telling her he raped her. She was appealing to Brad's sweetness and sense of justice and while she used a real story from her past, she was mentally very aware she was doing this and the op never got under her skin. While she would have had a lot of personal disdain for what she'd have seen as Lisa's lack of personal strength.) Elizabeth usually only makes real connections with assets in the know like Gregory and, to a much lesser degree, Hans. Whereas Philip regularly has to build deep emotional connections to the women he uses. He has often has to make a real deep connection, like with Annaliese, Kimmy and most obviously Martha.

But that changed with Young Hee and has happened again a bit with Ben. Now Elizabeth has started to let herself care about the marks and she finds it incredibly disturbing. What she has always seen an incomprehensible weakness in Philip is something she is actually even less well equipped to deal with now that she is having to immerse part of herself in her honeytrapping. And ironically, Philip has found himself with a mark who he can keep the kind of distance from that Elizabeth usually gets to benefit from.

[misstwpherecool]

On 4/28/2017 at 5:54 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

The searching of Oleg's room has me baffled.  WHY was that done?  Oleg seems pretty confident that it wasn't the CIA or FBI who tipped them off, right?  I m not sure what point there would be to tip off the KGB as to what Oleg has done, if they want to use him for their purposes.     Because now, he's on their radar. How is he going to be useful to the USA if he's under the eye of his own government?    If they still wanted to recruit him, they would have shown up at the meetings, right?   And not  refused to show up and tip off his indiscretion to the Russians? 

Just as Oleg said requesting the file on his mother might have tripped interest. Maybe that's what they were looking for.

[TheBride]

On 4/26/2017 at 0:25 PM, Razzberry said:

For the love of god can we please have Paige do something else besides knitting her eyebrows together while timidly asking questions?

Was a little disappointed that Diedre reinstated Phillip so quickly, even though as little more than a human vibrator.  Hopefully his main problem remains, in that she's not interested in pillow talk or impressing him.

Paige is a bore!!! And her boredom has infected the plot. She needs to go back to studying and whining all the time. Henry is the one who will emerge as interesting to the KGB.

[TheBride]

I am guessing that the future holds more about Henry. His relationship with Stan motivates him to want to be an FBI agent, but the secret is that the KGB recruited him right under the nose of Elizabeth and Philip. That's why Gabriel's parting words were to drop Paige's involvement. I don't blame them for that. If Elizabeth and Philip weren't killed by their enemies....Paige's personality will do it!!!

[RedHawk]

Her eyebrows are winning for America!

[White Sheep]

8 hours ago, TheBride said:

I am guessing that the future holds more about Henry. His relationship with Stan motivates him to want to be an FBI agent, but the secret is that the KGB recruited him right under the nose of Elizabeth and Philip. That's why Gabriel's parting words were to drop Paige's involvement. I don't blame them for that. If Elizabeth and Philip weren't killed by their enemies....Paige's personality will do it!!!

I just got this feeling.  Somewhere out there. A good looking older woman with a non describe American accent is telling Henry how he can bring about world peace.  By working for the motherland. 

[TheBride]

And I think the failure of Paige's character may very well lie mostly in the casting. The actor has such low energy. There's no way to believe she shares the same DNA with either parent. I would say that her casting was the only problem in that area for The Americans--the rest seems so believable!

[Denefits]

TASS doesn't have a dental plan? What the hell kind of union are these Commies even running?!!?!?!

[Klaw]

longtime lurker on this thread. finally commenting.

I feel i have to defend Paige a little. She's basically screwed no matter what she does and she knows it. She loves her parents, loves her country, loves her God and hates lying, but she basically has to lie and sell out her country on a daily basis just to keep the parents she loves (and her family) safe and intact. Add to that the normal self-righteousness of a teenager - yea, it sucks to be her. Not sure how people expect her to act. I think I am exactly Paige's age and I can remember getting involved with my county's anti-nuclear activities and being TERRIFIED of being roasted in a Nuclear war. It was a real thing - I had nightmares after I watched "The Day After." I don't think people who weren't old enough get how terrifying and real the prospect of all out Nuclear war was. For alot of us, it was a very scary concept. I can't imagine how I would have acted if my parents had told me they were super secret Soviet spies AND I had watched my mom kill a man in front of me. I don't know. Paige seems to be holding it together fairly well for the amount of shit she has to keep to herself (and from her friends and her brother).  I can see a kid like her not wanting to have real friends because you tell your friends everything at that age and she knows damn well she can't tell them about her parents so I can see her just retreating inside herself and trying to minimize the lies and deception and thinking "what's the point?" of having friends when she'd just have to lie to them.

Also, in the 80s, it was not at all uncommon to NOT know where your kids were after school. You assumed they were okay. There just wasn't this concept of play dates and helicoptering like there is nowadays. Me and my brother could basically tell my parents anything and they would believe us - it gave us a lot of freedom and I recall that ALL my friends had the same relationship with their parents. Sometimes we would tell them we were going somewhere (the diner, the movies, the mall) and go somewhere completely different (a party, a friends' house, into the city) and our parents wouldn't have a clue. It just was a different time. So all this "where's Henry?" business and Elizabeth and Philip not really knowing, not really caring, doesn't really bother me although I WOULD like to know what's up with Henry these days and I agree he'd make a better spy than Paige.

I also feel bad for Tuan. He's so obviously damaged and hurt. The kid (young man? not sure how old he really is) needs a ton of therapy instead of acting as a spy in an American high school. He should be on a couch somewhere not fake living with his fake adoptive parents. 

I'm actually enjoying this season. I like the slow burn. Personally, I could watch this show go on beyond the fall of the Berlin Wall and into the 1990s and follow Liz and Philip into old age either continuing to live in the US undercover or back in Russia. And watch Paige grow into adulthood with all these secrets and find out what she does with them, especially after 1989. I find these characters fascinating. 

Finally, I, too, want Oleg to come out of all of this okay. 

[millennium]

I watched the first half of this episode.  It was so boring that I turned it off and went to bed.

Is the second half worth watching?

P.S.  At this point I don't understand why we're following the Oleg storyline.   Nina's dead, and it has nothing to do with what's happening stateside.   Put it to bed already.

Edited May 1, 2017 by millennium

[crgirl412]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

I watched the first half of this episode.  It was so boring that I turned it off and went to bed.

Is the second half worth watching?

P.S.  At this point I don't understand why we're following the Oleg storyline.   Nina's dead, and it has nothing to do with what's happening stateside.   Put it to bed already.

It seems superfluous unless his food corruption story and the wheat story somehow come together otherwise it's a yawner.   

[millennium]

22 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

It seems superfluous unless his food corruption story and the wheat story somehow come together otherwise it's a yawner.   

It reminds me of the show Arrow, in which the writers inserted flashbacks into each story of the first season as a way to tell the character's origin.   For that purpose it worked well, but once the origin story was finished the writers refused to relinquish the flashback gimmick and instead began retconning the origin story, adding more and more layers to it until it became totally ridiculous, all apparently for the sake of retaining the original structure of the show.

The Americans featured a Russian-language portion from the start but it was originally centered on the Russian embassy in Washington, which made perfect sense given the storyline.    It also nicely paralleled the FBI scenes.  But now the writers seem to have completely abandoned the Embassy in favor of action playing out in Mother Russia.   It's all very uninteresting -- except for that glimpse of Martha -- and really slows the show down, IMHO (personally, I'm irked by the subtitles; I multitask while watching and whenever the Russian stuff comes on I am forced to stop and read).   I suspect they continue it because the Russian language portions have become part of the show's "brand" and feel the show would lose something if they abandoned that component of the show's formula.

I think the show would be better if they pulled out of Russia and got back to the Embassy.   

[crgirl412]

19 minutes ago, millennium said:

It reminds me of the show Arrow, in which the writers inserted flashbacks into each story of the first season as a way to tell the character's origin.   For that purpose it worked well, but once the origin story was finished the writers refused to relinquish the flashback gimmick and instead began retconning the origin story, adding more and more layers to it until it became totally ridiculous, all apparently for the sake of retaining the original structure of the show.

The Americans featured a Russian-language portion from the start but it was originally centered on the Russian embassy in Washington, which made perfect sense given the storyline.    It also nicely paralleled the FBI scenes.  But now the writers seem to have completely abandoned the Embassy in favor of action playing out in Mother Russia.   It's all very uninteresting -- except for that glimpse of Martha -- and really slows the show down, IMHO (personally, I'm irked by the subtitles; I multitask while watching and whenever the Russian stuff comes on I am forced to stop and read).   I suspect they continue it because the Russian language portions have become part of the show's "brand" and feel the show would lose something if they abandoned that component of the show's formula.

I think the show would be better if they pulled out of Russia and got back to the Embassy.   

I also do several things while watching and don't like to have to stop to read! 

The Russian Embassy things were cool for the reasons you mentioned.  If they are going to "go to Russia"  let us see Martha more or that baby they sent back who would be about 2 years old now or even Zinaida but this ginned up food story is annoying!    

[millennium]

I went back and finished the episode.

Worst of this series so far.

[millennium]

On 4/26/2017 at 6:48 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

 

 

I also believe that the show is less without Martha, Gaad and Arkady, at least for me. There was something about these characters - their humanity, perhaps - that added a different element to the show. I can't quite describe it but it feels like there is a hole in this show without them.

 

A big gaping hole.

I can't stand Claudia or the actress who portrays her.   It was such a relief when Gabriel took over.  

[SWLinPHX]

13 hours ago, millennium said:

personally, I'm irked by the subtitles; I multitask while watching and whenever the Russian stuff comes on I am forced to stop and read

To be fair, if you don't give a movie or television show your visual attention as well, you are missing a lot of nuances (subtitles or not).  It is TV after all, not radio.  Directors and actors put a lot of things into it that can't be captured by audio alone.

Edited May 2, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[Razzberry]

On 4/29/2017 at 11:42 AM, RedHawk said:

Her eyebrows are winning for America!

 

[TheBride]

17 hours ago, millennium said:

I watched the first half of this episode.  It was so boring that I turned it off and went to bed.

Is the second half worth watching?

P.S.  At this point I don't understand why we're following the Oleg storyline.   Nina's dead, and it has nothing to do with what's happening stateside.   Put it to bed already.

Oleg represents the growing number of Soviet patriots who questioned the principles of Communism and the "one-for-all-all-for-one" (except when I can make money from corruption) that permeated that society--and basically still does. This is why his plot line is important, we will see if he defects for the American freedoms and find out what in tar nation is in his mother's past. As for Nina, that was the plot line that made me fast-forward a lot. She carried on for about a season too long. I'm glad she has departed.

[TheBride]

21 hours ago, Klaw said:

longtime lurker on this thread. finally commenting.

I feel i have to defend Paige a little. She's basically screwed no matter what she does and she knows it. She loves her parents, loves her country, loves her God and hates lying, but she basically has to lie and sell out her country on a daily basis just to keep the parents she loves (and her family) safe and intact. 

I think the casting was totally wrong here. If Paige was played by an actor who had some "tooth" it would be far better. But--in the end--I think Henry will take the show. I project that he will aspire to be an FBI agent by identifying with Stan so closely, but the KGB will try to turn HIM into a sleeper within the CI. They have been building on this: 1) his surprising math skills, and 2) Gabriel's pronouncement that Paige was a non-starter. Of course, this could all be in my head....  :-)

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, TheBride said:

Oleg represents the growing number of Soviet patriots who questioned the principles of Communism and the "one-for-all-all-for-one" (except when I can make money from corruption) that permeated that society--and basically still does. This is why his plot line is important, we will see if he defects for the American freedoms and find out what in tar nation is in his mother's past. As for Nina, that was the plot line that made me fast-forward a lot. She carried on for about a season too long. I'm glad she has departed.

The Russian parts of the show interest me, we are seeing a world which, in a few very short years will fail.  I think it will all tie together, and frankly, already is.

This is what Elizabeth and Philip are ruining their lives to save.  That's pretty big.

I can't multitask with this show, and I like that, you miss too much, and it certainly isn't just the subtitles. 

[wellread]

I have been expecting someone to comment by now about the type of tai chi that Elizabeth "learned" from Ben.  They are doing tai chi chih, the non-martial version.  The movements are actually done at about one-third the speed shown in the program.  Presumably it would take too long to show them correctly.  The aim is to get your systems in balance, with the universe and all that sort of stuff.  You do take a series of very slow-moving lessons and learn one new movement each session.  You don't just wave your arms around.  I think there is an intended irony in that in both tai chi chih and EST, you are aiming to get in touch with your feelings, the universe and so on.  Elizabeth is deriving the same benefits from tai chi chih as Philip is from EST.

[Klaw]

2 hours ago, TheBride said:

I think the casting was totally wrong here. If Paige was played by an actor who had some "tooth" it would be far better.

I know this is an UO around these parts, but I think the actress is doing a fine job. She's playing a big-hearted, Jesus-loving, save-the-world teen whose whole black and white world went gray. She's like Elizabeth in the sense she wants everything to be black and white and her situation is so not that. On top of that she's moody, self-righteous, depressed and desperate. Is she annoying? Often- LOL!, but I guess I wouldn't expect a teenager in her position to be anything less under normal circumstances, let alone the situation she finds herself in. Eh, guess MMV. 

 

2 hours ago, TheBride said:

But--in the end--I think Henry will take the show. I project that he will aspire to be an FBI agent by identifying with Stan so closely, but the KGB will try to turn HIM into a sleeper within the CI. They have been building on this: 1) his surprising math skills, and 2) Gabriel's pronouncement that Paige was a non-starter.

See this is where we're in total agreement! Unless the writers are messing with us, it's just too big of a coincidence that suddenly we discover that Henry is this math genius and he's Mr. Secretive BFF with Stan the FBI Man. 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

The Russian parts of the show interest me, we are seeing a world which, in a few very short years will fail. 

Me too. I love the Russian parts of the show. It fascinates me. How strange it must be for someone like Oleg, a man of Soviet privilege, to live in Washington DC and see US-style privilege. That, and the government he served locked his mother up and killed his lover - not to mention a senseless war (in his family's view) that took his brother. That's got to add up to a big pile of WTF. At the same time, he saw the Americans being hypocritical murdering assholes - one of whom (as far as he knows) betrayed him after he had risked his life to impart a huge piece of Intel... so I can't imagine the competing emotions he must feel. Whew! 

As I said before, I would love to follow these characters after November 1989 ... *sigh*

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

To be fair, if you don't give a movie or television show your visual attention as well, you are missing a lot of nuances (subtitles or not).  It is TV after all, not radio.  Directors and actors put a lot of things into it that can't be captured by audio alone.

There are some shows I can multitask with - usually generic procedurals or comedies. This is not one of them. I pay close attention to this one, as so much is expressed without dialog.

1 hour ago, wellread said:

 I think there is an intended irony in that in both tai chi chih and EST, you are aiming to get in touch with your feelings, the universe and so on.  Elizabeth is deriving the same benefits from tai chi chih as Philip is from EST.

This has been my take on it (though I know nothing about Tai Chi.)

[TheBride]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The Russian parts of the show interest me, we are seeing a world which, in a few very short years will fail.  I think it will all tie together, and frankly, already is.

This is what Elizabeth and Philip are ruining their lives to save.  That's pretty big.

I can't multitask with this show, and I like that, you miss too much, and it certainly isn't just the subtitles. 

Yes, Elizabeth, Philip and their KGB comrades really bring home the difference between the 2 nations very VERY clear: Soviets love mother-Russia, but Americans love freedom. Not to wax homeland...but it took us much less than 200 years to establish the world's greatest example of freedom. After centuries and centuries, Russia is still closing down news media and killing politicians that threaten authoritarian regimes. Just sayin.

[TheBride]

On 4/27/2017 at 3:39 PM, tennisgurl said:

Oh dear, it looks like Oleg isn't as out of trouble as he thought he was. I knew he didn't have any evidence in his room, but I still felt super intense watching his room getting tossed, and his parents trying not to look pissed off or worried. Seriously, I will throw my TV if Oleg ends up getting killed or worse over actually being a decent person. His poor mom is a tough lady, but I don't know how she will be able to handle losing BOTH of her sons, in such a short period of time, over political stuff.

Oleg is ripe for defection, but who knows what will happen when the wall comes crumbling down. Remember that? They may all be like pets who have been caged up and afraid to leave the cage after the door opens! But Oleg is happy, he laughs and smiles and likes music. He may do well.

[millennium]

7 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

To be fair, if you don't give a movie or television show your visual attention as well, you are missing a lot of nuances (subtitles or not).  It is TV after all, not radio.  Directors and actors put a lot of things into it that can't be captured by audio alone.

The problem is that this episode was 90% nuance, more of an actors' workshop than a story.   I could have given my dog a bath during the silence between Paige saying "I'm sick of being scared" and Elizabeth finally responding that she was raped when she was 18.  I get the need for a dramatic pause, but this was absurd and abusive of the audience, IMO.

[Bretton]

Another (this time subtle) pet-peeve to express...

When Elizabeth and Paige went for their walk, I inwardly cringed when Elizabeth said, in responding to Paige's question about liking her job: "I wish I didn't have to do it, but I'm proud to serve my COUNTRY." 

This just came across as a really poor choice of words to me. I mean, Paige is an American. If it's just a showdown between nation-states (and not ideologies) then she could very well pick what's always been home to her. In my mind, Elizabeth is MUCH MORE likely to enlist her if she speaks to the "cause", and to the aims of benefiting all people, across the globe, regardless of race, class, religion - all that.

[Sarah 103]

On May 2, 2017 at 5:04 PM, TheBride said:

But Oleg is happy, he laughs and smiles and likes music.

Knowing how big Jazz music was in Russia, I'm surprised we haven't seen him going to a Jazz club/concert.