S05.E09: Visiting Hours

[Mick Lady]

Norman's legal problems get worse. Emma tends to family business while Dylan finds himself caught between his past and his future. Romero sets out to get revenge

Can't believe it's the penultimate episode guys! I haven't been this sad for a series to end since Breaking Bad ended!

[Spartan Girl]

EEEK.

At this point Romero and Norman are two sides of the same coin. Their love for Norma turned into a dark twisted obsession. And that montage of "ghost" Norma last week proved that like Norman, Romero only loved a certain, idealized version of Norma. Not necessarily the dark side. The real Norma wasn't the type of woman that glamorously ascended the staircase or constantly primped in front of her bedroom buduoir.

Madeline can STFU blaming Dylan for Norman murdering Sam. Her lying, cheating douchebag husband would have gone to motel to chase his side-piece even if she hadn't kicked him out of the house that night.

That last conversation between Emma and Mother...wow. Was not expecting Emma to be aware of the split personality. But I'm glad that she sort of knows that the real Norman wasn't the one that killed her mom. Still, heartbreaking.

Also heartbreaking is that Emma and Dylan are going to split up because of their two terrible mothers and the choices they made leading to the circumstances of this mess.

One more episode left! It came so soon...

Edited April 18, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[LocimusPrime]

I was so happy watching Romero choke Norman with one hand, squeezing the life out of him. Sweet justice. Oh soooooo sweet. 

Dylan is an idiot and makes terrible decisions.  Emma is the sweetest person on the show, his wife, and mother of his child.  Stick by her side fool! 

if I was Romero I would have taken two pairs of handcuffs as well and cuffed the attorney to the steering wheel and cuffed one one of Norman's hands to his opposite ankle.  Trust me, this is a very effective method. Then shot Norman in the thigh, which gives him an hour of so before he bleeds out and dies,which is plenty of time for him to provide the location of Norma's body. 

I cant wait for Norman to die. He has cause so much misery and pain for so many innocent people!  I hate that character so much and I wish I could leap into the show and help Romero  

[wrongheaven]

This was such a great Emma episode. Olivia Cooke really nailed the myriad of emotions Emma went through, all culminating in that last scene where she walked in so angry and then I feel like she was confronted with what she didn't want to admit - that she still cared for Norman and that he wasn't responsible - "Mother" is (although I don't think she realizes this is the persona which controls him). 

It's something that, going into the finale, I am most worried about the future of Dylan and Emma. I really want them to come out of this intact, but I don't know how they can. They have become the little bubble of happiness on this show, and I don't want it popped. There has to be some optimism at the end of this series, right?

And can I just say that the acting on this show is of course amazing, but I think Max Theriot is really the unsung hero of this show? He does not get enough recognition. 

4 minutes ago, LocimusPrime said:

I cant wait for Norman to die. He has cause so much misery and pain for so many innocent people!  I hate that character so much and I wish I could leap into the show and help Romero  

This is why I love this show. I hate Mother!Norman, who truly is responsible for everything. Yes, the body is the same but this is the horror of mental illness. Even though Actual!Norman is the one who killed Sam, you know he was corrupted and decayed over time by the Dissociative Identity Disorder and it's not really him, it's the disease. I want him to pay for all he's done, but at the same time you know the best thing for him would be a ton of psychiatric help and drugs. 

Seriously not ready for this show to end. 

[CynicalGirl]

So sad that it doesn't look like Dylan and Emma are going to make it. I mean, they might make it out alive but not together. Dylan has been my Jesse from Breaking Bad on this show. Just wanted him to escape all the carnage and drive out of town.

*sigh* I hope I'm wrong and he does just that.

[thuganomics85]

Definitely felt like an penultimate episode for a final season.  The end really is almost here.

Dylan and Emma were heartbreaking as expected.  At they least they were mainly civil, but, yeah, you can already see the distance growing between them.  I feel for Dylan, but I'm more on Emma's side here, even if she really didn't get to know her mother all that well.  Sure, logically, Norman is sick and didn't know what he was doing at the time, but for Emma, it still doesn't change the fact that he brutally murdered her mother.  Even though she is one of the most understanding characters out there, that is just something I can't see her ever getting out of her head.  I do wonder if we'll see her next week as well, because it did seem almost like a sendoff, especially her getting a final scene with Norman/"Norma."  I still desperately hope they can work it out still, but I don't know.

On the flip side, Madeline just made me roll my eyes.  First, Dylan didn't "know" Norman all of his life.  They were actually separated for quite some time.  Even then though, Norman really was good at hiding his true darkness.  Yes, he always seemed a bit off, but I can't really blame Dylan for not truly seeing it until it was too late.  I get Madeline was in mourning, but that was still a jerk move.

Loved how they keep cutting back between Norma and Norman in all of their scenes and, as usual, both Vera Farmiga and Freddie Highmore owned it.  I will miss these two very much.

Oh, shit!  Romero's got his hands on Norman!  Seems like he wants him to find Norma's body and then he will put a bullet in his head.  We'll see.  I don't see both of them surviving this.  Hell, I can even see both of them dying.  It's going to be ugly either way.

Like the scenes of all the cops and forensic teams going over the hotel and house, and the one lady finding the suitcase, only for the guy to be all "Hey, hate to rain on anybody's parade, but I just found a creepy shrine with a dead Chick in it!"  I bet those folks never knew they were going to deal with this kind of craziness when they went to work in the sleepy little town of White Pines Bay!

No new scenes in the preview for the finale!  Can't wait!!

[Bec]

I'm thinking there's no way they're going to have Romero just plain kill off Norman for an ending (I wouldn't mind that too much, but it might seem a bit anticlimatic). I bet Norman is going to turn the tables on Romero somehow. Romero is going to underestimate Norman, and that'll be the last mistake he ever makes.

Did anyone else wonder if Emma was going to trip over Norma's body when she was scattering her mom's ashes in the woods? Okay, just as well it didn't go that way. Would have been too much of a coincidence.

I was freaking out when Romero went into the sheriff's department, 'cause I wasn't sure whether Emma left the building yet. I was like "he better not hurt Emma!"

"Tell Norman I miss him." Excuse me, I have something in my eye. Is someone cutting onions in here? That really was one of Emma's best scenes.

Poor, poor Dylan. I can't blame him for not being able to completely turn his back on his brother. Everyone's giving him crap! But I can't blame Emma, either. I don't think even the most super understanding wife can be okay with her husband trying to help her mom's killer. Though maybe Emma's starting to come around after that scene where she got to see for herself that "Norman is sleeping"?

Maybe Dylan will almost die in the last episode, and then Emma will see that she doesn't want him gone from her life, and then all will be well between them. Or would that be too much of a Hollywood ending?

[paulvdb]

Great episode, but I was taken out of it during Emma's mother's funeral scene because of the music. I associate Crimson and Clover with Veronica Mars when Logan was waiting for Veronica on his yacht and she didn't show up.

[quangtran]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

On the flip side, Madeline just made me roll my eyes.  First, Dylan didn't "know" Norman all of his life.  They were actually separated for quite some time.  Even then though, Norman really was good at hiding his true darkness.  Yes, he always seemed a bit off, but I can't really blame Dylan for not truly seeing it until it was too late.  I get Madeline was in mourning, but that was still a jerk move.

I side with Madeline and thought it was a good scene. Even though Dylan wasn't nearly as delusional as Norma, he did ignore huge warning signs from early on, like when he brushing off Norman attacking him with a mallet in the second episode and forgetting it the next day. Same goes for when Norma outright telling Dylan about his condition when he learned that Norman killed his dad. Dylan saw this all very early in the game.

Loved the callback to the episode "Norma Louis" when mother said that "Norman's sleeping".

[BooBear]

40 minutes ago, quangtran said:

I side with Madeline and thought it was a good scene. Even though Dylan wasn't nearly as delusional as Norma, he did ignore huge warning signs from early on, like when he brushing off Norman attacking him with a mallet in the second episode and forgetting it the next day. Same goes for when Norma outright telling Dylan about his condition when he learned that Norman killed his dad. Dylan saw this all very early in the game.

I disagree. First Dylan did try to get Norman help and away from Norma several times but I also don't think he knew that his brother was killing people -- until Emma's mom. Also he had no evidence.  When he left he also thought Norman was in treatment. 

Ahh well, again, I thought it was a bit of a stall. And WTF... did the Judge find probable cause? <g>  I think Dylan leaving the courtroom was devastating. And that attorney should know NOT to invite family if she can't be sure they are in full support. 

I am really worried no one will find the real Norma. I can't tell you how worried I am about that. 

I was a little ticked at Emma for "blaming" Dylan.  She usually seems more stable than that. I suspect she will come around. As she noted she wasn't particularly close with her mom.  I loved that she saw that Norman wasn't around. 

[Chaos Theory]

When it comes to Norman vs Romero I find myself siding with Norman.  Not sure why.  Maybe because Norman is sick and should have gotten help along time ago but forces both in and out of his control stoped him from it.  On the other hand Romero is just out for revenge.  Honestly vengeance is just boring.

[mwell345]

Perfectly executed episode - and an episode in which the  focus was not really on Norman/Norma.    I thought Max Theriot and Olivia Cooke were outstanding (and I'm not a big fan of "Emma").  Theriot, especially, doesn't need dialog - his face says everything and in show where the acting accolades go to Highmore (as they should), he definitely brings it.

Ugh - I  wasn't keeping track of episodes so the "Final Episode" notice for next week caught  me off guard.  All I can say it I'm looking forward to it (I have a theory on what will happen) but I'm also sad it's ending.

[smorbie]

8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

EEEK.

At this point Romero and Norman are two sides of the same coin. Their love for Norma turned into a dark twisted obsession. And that montage of "ghost" Norma last week proved that like Norman, Romero only loved a certain, idealized version of Norma. Not necessarily the dark side. The real Norma wasn't the type of woman that glamorously ascended the staircase or constantly primped in front of her bedroom buduoir.

Madeline can STFU blaming Dylan for Norman murdering Sam. Her lying, cheating douchebag husband would have gone to motel to chase his side-piece even if she hadn't kicked him out of the house that night.

That last conversation between Emma and Mother...wow. Was not expecting Emma to be aware of the split personality. But I'm glad that she sort of knows that the real Norman wasn't the one that killed her mom. Still, heartbreaking.

Also heartbreaking is that Emma and Dylan are going to split up because of their two terrible mothers and the choices they made leading to the circumstances of this mess.

One more episode left! It came so soon...

All hail to Freddie Highmore!  You can tell by looking at his eyes which person is in there, though I think it's all Mother these days.  Norman, as she says, is sleeping.  And to Emma's credit (is she getting on anyone else's nerves these days?) she caught it.  Masterful moment when she asked Mother to let her speak to him because she KNEW that wasn't Norman talking.

My heart is broken for poor Dylan.  It's hard for most of us to understand what life is like for the family of murderers.  They get little sympathy, but often they are victims, too, aren't they?  

But in Dylan's case there's a double tragedy.  So much of this could have been avoided if he had just joined with Alex in going to the court to have Norman readmitted to Pine View.  So many people would still be alive. But, he couldn't do that because he valued his relationship with his mother so much.  It was still so new to him to be able to accept her love.  He couldn't take the chance of losing it.  

Instead he lost her.   And I know he's the one who walked away and I know it felt like she pushed him.  But, she was like a mother bear at that point, protecting Norman beyond all reason when the best thing for the world would have been to put him back in the hospital.

So, he could have stopped a lot of the carnage.  And yeah, he should have told Emma, but I think that's probably a hard conversation to have.  How would you ease into it?

[Chaos Theory]

Your heart may break for poor Dylan but ultimately he doesn't really know who Norma or Norman were/are.  Emma was more family to them then he was.  That's why it makes sense that she was able to, almost with a single glance realize she wasn't talking to Norman.  

It was an incredible scene.

Dont care about Romero's pain except for that Ill advised jailbreak.  If anything it's going to make next week interesting.

[Lostinthehouse]

2 hours ago, paulvdb said:

 

Great episode, but I was taken out of it during Emma's mother's funeral scene because of the music. I associate Crimson and Clover with Veronica Mars when Logan was waiting for Veronica on his yacht and she didn't show up.

 

The placement of the song "Crimson and Clover" was perfect:  The crimson red and blazing orange as Emma's mother's body is consumed by the flames of cremation, then the clover green of the woods where Emma scattered her ashes.  It truly was a thing of poetic beauty.

[Ohwell]

I cracked up when the police officers shoved Norman out of the door so that Romero could have him.

[Chaos Theory]

17 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I cracked up when the police officers shoved Norman out of the door so that Romero could have him.

Let crazy deal with crazy.  

That cell did look like Hannibal Lector's cell in the movie.  All clear glass.  Like a fish in an aquarium.  It was spooky.  I liked it.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[mwell345]

12 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I cracked up when the police officers shoved Norman out of the door so that Romero could have him.

And when Romero had the gun on Norman and was pushing him into the car, Norman says "Where did you get this car?"

[Peanut6711]

10 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Madeline can STFU blaming Dylan for Norman murdering Sam. Her lying, cheating douchebag husband would have gone to motel to chase his side-piece even if she hadn't kicked him out of the house that night.

Agree, Madeline did not come off well in this scene. And yet it's believable that her character would be the type of person to become nostalgic about someone once they are dead, forgetting the person's true character when they were alive.  She was pretty blind about her marriage and Norman too.   After last night's episode I was feeling a bit underwhelmed by the way the show handled the Marion/Loomis plot angle.  It just seemed like there's nothing left to it and yet it was so intricate to the movie.   While I don't expect it will happen, I'd love to see Marion and Madeline cross paths in the last episode and embrace some girl power together. Maybe they could met at Sam's grave and form a friendship. 

9 hours ago, LocimusPrime said:

Dylan is an idiot and makes terrible decisions.  Emma is the sweetest person on the show, his wife, and mother of his child.  Stick by her side fool! 

Dylan really needs to pull his head out of his ass in this last episode. I'm tried of seeing him wondering around like he's in a trance.  I've never really felt the chemistry between him and Emma to begin with so it would be nice to see him make a sweeping gesture signifying that he's moving forward with his life, embracing his future w/Emma and Katie and walking away from his past w/the Bates.  Maybe he could inherit everything and have the whole place bulldozed down. LOL

3 hours ago, BooBear said:

I am really worried no one will find the real Norma. I can't tell you how worried I am about that. 

I wouldn't worry. I'm pretty sure that's where Romero is headed w/Norman. I don't think they'll skip over the iconic body in the finale. The better question is...will Dylan ever learn Caleb's fate???

[luna1122]

My heart breaks for Emma and Dylan; I'm hoping Emma's realization that she still cares about Norman too might make her also be able to forgive Dylan and not split them apart. That aside, I just want them both to live. Poor Dylan, everybody dumping on him. I don't dislike Madeline, but she was out of line. And also, I'm unclear why she's mourning her lousy husband so hard.

[unoiamacutie]

I'm glad Emma was able to come to terms with the situation with Norman. She was quick with her deductions of another personality being there instead of Norman considering that she's never seen Norman become Mother other than Caleb, Dylan, Dr. Edwards, and Chick. Her previous anger and hatred against Norman was ebbed away when she saw that she wasn't talking to the real Norman. At least she's able to have a bit of closure and go back to Seattle hopefully moving on from all of this.

Dylan continues to try and be a good brother and mediator for Norman, but it's not working out as he was bombarded by accusations and anger from Emma and Madeline. Poor guy, I hope he can get out of all of this alright.

Don't know about anyone else in this forum, but don't like Romero at all. It's hard to call him a good guy doing the right thing, when he's now openly shooting whoever he wants. Now he's got Regina and Norman kidnapped at gunpoint all so that he could go see Norma's dead body, and once that's over he plans to end Norman. It killed me to see Norman being strangled by this madman.

Not sure what's going to happen anymore in the finale. The police are going to discover the tapes that Chick had which will most likely get him the insanity plea if Norman manages to survive Romero's rampage.

[unoiamacutie]

41 minutes ago, mwell345 said:

And when Romero had the gun on Norman and was pushing him into the car, Norman says "Where did you get this car?"

I think he said that because he, or rather Mother, realized that it was Chick's car.

[mwell345]

8 minutes ago, unoiamacutie said:

I think he said that because he, or rather Mother, realized that it was Chick's car.

Yeah - I just realized that the car was Chick's.  Makes sense now.

[raven]

I have sympathy for Madeleine and don't blame her for taking her anger out on the most convenient target - Dylan.   She didn't start out doing that; in fact she was blaming herself for letting Norman into their lives but then she realized that Dylan did have suspicions about Norman and never did anything.  And she is right - he did know.  Even Dylan realizes that fact.  For a drug runner and killer, Dylan has a terrible poker face. 

Presumably she loved Sam, and in a very short period of time she realizes he's been cheating; before she can really deal with that, he's murdered plus the guy who murdered him is the supposedly nice, quiet motel manager she befriended and brought into their orbit.   You can fix a broken marriage but not if your husband's dead.   She probably also has some guilt over the "date" with Norman and throwing Sam out of the house (not that she should, but she probably does).   So I don't expect her to be "Thanks Norman, you did me a favor by brutally stabbing Sam so that he died choking on his own blood".

I love that the show didn't shy away from Emma's hurt and anger.  As with Madeleine, you can't have a relationship with the person you're on the outs with if that person is dead.  Well, unless you're Norman, heh.   It's been a fairly short period of time that Emma, who thought she put nutty WPB behind her forever, finds out her mother's been murdered by Norman and that her husband suspected it for a long time. At the very least Dylan knew Norman was mentally ill and violent.  That is a HUGE mistake on Dylan's part.  So Emma has to think about the ramifications of her husband keeping a huge secret from her and what that says about Dylan's character and whether or not Emma subscribes some blame to Dylan for the murders that happened after her mother's.   I thought Olivia Cooke did a great job and LOVED that she knew she wasn't talking to Norman.

I am sympathetic to Dylan and I like the character but he has made mistakes.  Are Norman's murders his fault?  No, but he knew Norma was covering/protecting him every step of the way, and there was hope for Norman once.  Maybe by the time that Dylan realized what was happening it was too late but we'll never know.  Unfortunately the brother who rode the motorcycle with him is gone (sleeping) and may not be back for a long time; not the way he was, even if Mother lets him.   Dylan needs to concentrate on Emma and Katie.  He can't help Norman now.

Romero's anger is a little tiring.  At least he didn't shoot to kill his fellow officer.  He's up against Mother now, not Norman, so I doubt that will go well for him.   I did laugh at how easily the police officers pushed Norman out of the cell when Romero demanded it! 

I can't say enough about Freddie Highmore; the little smiles; the body language - all signifying Mother. 

Only one episode left!

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I cracked up when the police officers shoved Norman out of the door so that Romero could have him.

Me, too.

[Evie]

Obviously we have been heading toward a Norman/Romero showdown, but I wasn't expecting a jailbreak. At this point, I think the biggest surprise for me would be Romero surviving the finale.

I really feel for Emma, but it didn't fully come together for me until the Emma/Mother scene. Audrey was only in a couple episodes, and Emma never talked about her mother before that, so I just wasn't that invested, I think. I thought the Emma/Mother scene gave some hope for Emma/Dylan's marriage.

I really feel for Dylan too. I get why he is seeing things through with Norman even though I wish he would head back to Seattle with Emma. Madeleine was lashing out, but she basically said what Dylan was feeling.

So the police found Chick, but nothing more was said about it in this episode. I assume they found Chick's tapes? There seems like a lot left to wrap up.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Evie

[smorbie]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Your heart may break for poor Dylan but ultimately he doesn't really know who Norma or Norman were/are.  Emma was more family to them then he was.  That's why it makes sense that she was able to, almost with a single glance realize she wasn't talking to Norman.  

It was an incredible scene.

Dont care about Romero's pain except for that Ill advised jailbreak.  If anything it's going to make next week interesting.

Sometimes family is the last to know.  We think he should have been alerted since the night Norman attacked him in the kitchen during season one.  But, Norma later explained his blackouts and Dylan went with that.

2 hours ago, mwell345 said:

And when Romero had the gun on Norman and was pushing him into the car, Norman says "Where did you get this car?"

I know.  This show never fails to bring those little moments that are hilarious even in the midst of really bad events.

I wonder what the police are going to make of Chick in the throne room?

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, luna1122 said:

My heart breaks for Emma and Dylan; I'm hoping Emma's realization that she still cares about Norman too might make her also be able to forgive Dylan and not split them apart. That aside, I just want them both to live. Poor Dylan, everybody dumping on him. I don't dislike Madeline, but she was out of line. And also, I'm unclear why she's mourning her lousy husband so hard.

the first stage of grief is anger.  And anger must be directed at someone or something.  I thought it was natural that she pointed it in Dylan's direction even though it was misdirected.

Last night belonged to the guy who plays Dylan. I can't remember his name at the moment.  But he was brilliant.

Someone said earlier that he was acting like he was in a daze.  Don't you think you would be?

2 hours ago, unoiamacutie said:

I'm glad Emma was able to come to terms with the situation with Norman. She was quick with her deductions of another personality being there instead of Norman considering that she's never seen Norman become Mother other than Caleb, Dylan, Dr. Edwards, and Chick. Her previous anger and hatred against Norman was ebbed away when she saw that she wasn't talking to the real Norman. At least she's able to have a bit of closure and go back to Seattle hopefully moving on from all of this.

Dylan continues to try and be a good brother and mediator for Norman, but it's not working out as he was bombarded by accusations and anger from Emma and Madeline. Poor guy, I hope he can get out of all of this alright.

Don't know about anyone else in this forum, but don't like Romero at all. It's hard to call him a good guy doing the right thing, when he's now openly shooting whoever he wants. Now he's got Regina and Norman kidnapped at gunpoint all so that he could go see Norma's dead body, and once that's over he plans to end Norman. It killed me to see Norman being strangled by this madman.

Not sure what's going to happen anymore in the finale. The police are going to discover the tapes that Chick had which will most likely get him the insanity plea if Norman manages to survive Romero's rampage.

Romero was never a good guy.  In a world of white hats and dark hats, his was always a bit light brown.  

As someone upthread said, he's just as crazy as Norman is right now.  I think his intentions are to go to Norma, kill Norman and then himself.  I'm not saying that's what will happen because...well, we've how guessing goes.  

[Stringey]

12 hours ago, LocimusPrime said:

I was so happy watching Romero choke Norman with one hand, squeezing the life out of him. Sweet justice. Oh soooooo sweet. 

Dylan is an idiot and makes terrible decisions.  Emma is the sweetest person on the show, his wife, and mother of his child.  Stick by her side fool! 

if I was Romero I would have taken two pairs of handcuffs as well and cuffed the attorney to the steering wheel and cuffed one one of Norman's hands to his opposite ankle.  Trust me, this is a very effective method. Then shot Norman in the thigh, which gives him an hour of so before he bleeds out and dies,which is plenty of time for him to provide the location of Norma's body. 

I cant wait for Norman to die. He has cause so much misery and pain for so many innocent people!  I hate that character so much and I wish I could leap into the show and help Romero  

But it is not Norman that has killed people on purpose with the exception of Sam Loomis. Except for that murder of sam Norman has killed people unknowingly because of his illness.

[Stringey]

So where was Romero and company headed to back to the house.  Also I was not surprised that they did not show us even any teasers for the finale.

[unoiamacutie]

8 minutes ago, Stringey said:

But it is not Norman that has killed people on purpose with the exception of Sam Loomis. Except for that murder of sam Norman has killed people unknowingly because of his illness.

Well, he killed Norma too, but not from any malicious intent. And even when he killed Sam Loomis he was listening to the voice in his head convincing him to do it yet still turned himself in because of the guilt. All the other murders however were done when he was blacked out and can't really be blamed for it. Romero on the other hand is a sane man hungry for revenge. I don't think he truly cares about Norma at all; this quest for revenge is something only he wants to satisfy himself and I'm just getting sick of it at this point.  This show should never be about ships, but that's what I feel like many of the fandom have reduced it too when they start dissing the main character of the show and root for a supporting character to 'win'. Romero is a total antagonist this season and it would be a real slap in the face if they let Romero succeed in killing Norman.

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, unoiamacutie said:

Don't know about anyone else in this forum, but don't like Romero at all. It's hard to call him a good guy doing the right thing, when he's now openly shooting whoever he wants. Now he's got Regina and Norman kidnapped at gunpoint all so that he could go see Norma's dead body, and once that's over he plans to end Norman. It killed me to see Norman being strangled by this madman.

I hate Romero too.  I mean he was kind of a Nice Guy when it came to Norma; he knew she wanted to marry him for his insurance money, but went along with it anyway because he wanted her.  The fact that she later fell in love with him doesn't make it any less shady.

His response to his friend reminded him that Norma wouldn't have wanted this with "Norma didn't get to choose" also pissed me off.  Yeah, she didn't choose to die, but she made plenty of other choices that led to what happened.  She chose to cover up her husband's death as an accident, she chose not to get Norman help until it was too late, she chose to keep him unnaturally close and not let him have a life, she chose to ignore Dylan and Romero's repeated warnings about Norman, and when push came to shove, she chose Norman over Romero.

[unoiamacutie]

6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I hate Romero too.  I mean he was kind of a Nice Guy when it came to Norma; he knew she wanted to marry him for his insurance money, but went along with it anyway because he wanted her.  The fact that she later fell in love with him doesn't make it any less shady.

His response to his friend reminded him that Norma wouldn't have wanted this with "Norma didn't get to choose" also pissed me off.  Yeah, she didn't choose to die, but she made plenty of other choices that led to what happened.  She chose to cover up her husband's death as an accident, she chose not to get Norman help until it was too late, she chose to keep him unnaturally close and not let him have a life, she chose to ignore Dylan and Romero's repeated warnings about Norman, and when push came to shove, she chose Norman over Romero.

Even worse his exact words were, “She’s dead. She has no say.” So he says he's doing it for her, but then comes out with this statement that completely negates whatever he said previously about getting vengeance for her; pretty much tells the audience that he's doing this for himself. It seems like the fandom (particularly Normero shippers) have taken on his horrible habit of calling Norman all sorts of names for doing things that Romero himself does. I see posts all the time about what a monster Norman is, but he's killed two people consciously and feels an incredible amount of guilt over it. His personification of Norma as his other personality is due to his guilt for what he did to her and his need to have her protect him, and he turned himself in for Sam Loomis. But these people would rather think of him as this horrible person who deserves the worst death possible while ignoring all the bad things that Romero is doing that is far worst than what Norman has ever done.

[Chaos Theory]

Romero is in murder/suicide mode right now.  Running into the police station.  Shooting a cop (even by accident) has removed Romero off the side of angels and put him solely on killer vs killer genre.  The problem is he is single minded in his pursuit but he is dealing with someone with multiple minds.  I would be deeply disappointed if he succeeded in killing Norman.  Not because I hate Romero (which I do) and love Norman (which I also do) but because he hasn't earned it in the least.    The sheriff on the other hand even in her limited screen time has earned it in my mind.  

[Miss Chevious]

Yes, Romero is definitely a man on a mission. He's out to kill Norman or die trying. When he grabbed Norman/Mother  by the throat I thought is this how Norman is going to die, strangled in a police station? But no, they're saving his ultimate end till next week. 

The scenes with Emma were touching. Granted she didn't have a good relationship with Audrey, but it's still a tough thing to bury or should I say cremate your parent. And Emma was one of the few people around Norma and Norman for a long time. She was more aware of the dynamics of their relationship than most  so she knew she wasn't talking with Norman at the jail.

It's interesting to note Norman's previous visions of Mother showed her dressed in her feminine dresses, sometimes even with an apron. But in the last couple of episodes Mother is shown wearing the exact same garb as Norman, showing us they are completely integrated. And Mother has taken over.

TPTB have only one more episode to wrap up the loose ends. Will we ever find out what happened to Dr. Edwards?

[Ohwell]

I like Romero.  However, at this point, I think the best thing for him is to die because he knows there's no way out for him at this point.  So I'm fine with him dying.

However, I never could stand Norman--mental illness be damned--and I hope the series ends with his death, too.

[truthaboutluv]

11 hours ago, Bec said:

Did anyone else wonder if Emma was going to trip over Norma's body when she was scattering her mom's ashes in the woods? Okay, just as well it didn't go that way. Would have been too much of a coincidence.

Yup, I did. The moment I saw her walking up to that field, my first thought was she was going to stumble upon Norma's body and then my second thought was, if it did happen, "poor Emma, like that poor woman isn't going through enough right now."

8 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

When it comes to Norman vs Romero I find myself siding with Norman.  Not sure why.  Maybe because Norman is sick and should have gotten help along time ago but forces both in and out of his control stoped him from it.  On the other hand Romero is just out for revenge.  Honestly vengeance is just boring.

It took me awhile to figure out why I was struggling so much with this whole Romero vengeance plot since yeah, Norman did murder his wife, even if his intent was to die with her. Yet despite that I've found myself struggling to not be irritated by Romero's whole "must kill Norman" plan and I finally realized what it is. I don't buy this great love that Romero and Norma shared. I liked them well enough, I knew the show would eventually pair them up and the actors had decent chemistry but I never saw this powerful and amazing love story.

I will say that the moment of her telling him about her past may have been the relationship's biggest selling moment. But that aside, it seemed like they were attracted to each other, got into a fake marriage because she asked, then she refused to accept her crazy son was crazy and was going to leave Romero and then she was killed. And since then Romero has been obsessed with murdering her son. I just can't be moved or convinced by this whole thing because it just doesn't gel with what I felt Romero and Norma's relationship was.

And to me, much like all the other men who were so obsessed with her, including Caleb and Norman (although I'm not sure I fully agree that Norman didn't really know Norma), he didn't really know Norma if he thinks this is a way to avenge her. Because this is a woman who was ready to walk away from him, despite KNOWING that Norman very well was sick enough to have murdered people. She was willing to give him up and give Dylan up. That's the whole point of this tragedy. Norma and Norman together was a perfect storm of insanity that created all this tragedy, which is why his alternate personality looks like her. So Romero's revenge sure as hell can't be about Norma because in what world would Norma ever want Norman killed. It's about him and his own hate. 

8 hours ago, smorbie said:

But in Dylan's case there's a double tragedy.  So much of this could have been avoided if he had just joined with Alex in going to the court to have Norman readmitted to Pine View.  So many people would still be alive. But, he couldn't do that because he valued his relationship with his mother so much.  It was still so new to him to be able to accept her love.  He couldn't take the chance of losing it.  

Hindsight is 20/20 but would that really have worked? Norman managed to convince the therapist to let him out and going behind Norma's back would mean they wouldn't have her support, she would have likely been pissed and unforgiving for what they did and she would do everything to get Norman out. I think it was very reasonable of Dylan to try and get to Norma. Norma was the key. If she had ever gotten to the place of truly realizing just how sick Norman was, that could have maybe stopped some tragedy. And to her credit she did, when she got him institutionalized. But then he cried to her and despite suspecting he murdered Audrey, she allowed him home and wouldn't accept what others had to say about it being dangerous. 

6 hours ago, unoiamacutie said:

I think he said that because he, or rather Mother, realized that it was Chick's car.

I actually thought that was Norma's car but then I realized that the police would probably have the car to search it for evidence.

4 hours ago, smorbie said:

I wonder what the police are going to make of Chick in the throne room?

Well they didn't mention it as one of Norman's charges but maybe because they had just found the body. However, I have to imagine that the medical examiners can tell Chick was only recently killed and Norman's been in jail. 

3 hours ago, unoiamacutie said:

Well, he killed Norma too, but not from any malicious intent. And even when he killed Sam Loomis he was listening to the voice in his head convincing him to do it yet still turned himself in because of the guilt. All the other murders however were done when he was blacked out and can't really be blamed for it. Romero on the other hand is a sane man hungry for revenge.

Good point. The thing is, as sick as Norman is, the writers have always brought him back enough to remind audiences that he is, well sick and not necessarily plain evil. He fought hard against himself to stop himself from murdering Dylan and then immediately called the police and confessed, because he realized he was losing the battle with Mother. He kept asking for his meds because he was worried of exactly what has happened - Mother taking over and lying and denying everything. He fought against himself again when he didn't murder Caleb. And then even this episode, while Norman is still completely blacked out and Mother in control, there was that flicker of expression when Emma said to tell Norman she missed him. Norman is a sick and fucked up kid.

Romero is a man who's murdered people multiple times, albeit they were often criminals themselves, always skirted around what was legal (which is what the FEDS eventually got him on) and basically at the moment is fueled by his hate. Again, I know we're supposed to see it as fueled by his love for Norma but as I said above, that's hard to believe when anyone who truly knew and loved Norma knew that Norman was her whole world, to the point of it ultimately costing her her life.

So killing Norman would not be avenging her, in my opinion. I mean it may be for the best for Norman because really he's so sick now that he will never have a normal life even if he ends up in a mental institution. But yeah, I agree with others in not really being particularly interested and enthused by this whole vengeance plot. Especially because I still think it will end in tragedy and that tragedy will not be Norman's death. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Chaos Theory]

For me the great love story has always been Norma and Norman as sick and tragic as it is.  That is also why I don't buy Romero as the good guy.  He really isn't.  If he knew Norma at all or cared about her he'd know she would want Norman to be safe regardless of the cost or consequences.   I think that is why I feel this is more tragedy the horror or even thriller.  The true tragedy is that the only people they ever really loved was each other.  Norma might have found someone who could make her happy in Romero but when push came to shove she would have chosen Norman.  

[Andromeda]

Another Oregon reality check. Not only don't we have the death penalty, we don't have pump-your-own gas. So Romero was in Washington or Idaho when he was at the gas station (j/k).

I was so into this episode, I was surprised when it ended. Dylan and Emma better survive this!!!!

Romero is really off his rocker at this point.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Andromeda

[truthaboutluv]

Forgot to mention, anyone else notice that Romero told the officers to get into his office? I thought that was a pretty clever slip of the tongue on the writers' part since he did used to be the Sheriff. 

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I cracked up when the police officers shoved Norman out of the door so that Romero could have him.

Seriously. Definitely not someone they were concerned about sacrificing.

I assume Norman was in a suit because he'd just been or was just going to court? Because otherwise, shouldn't he be in prison garb?

[Mick Lady]

5 hours ago, raven said:

As with Madeleine, you can't have a relationship with the person you're on the outs with if that person is dead.  Well, unless you're Norman, heh.  

Just got around to having the time to read this thread. I didn't expect to laugh hysterically, but Raven, that's exactly what you did! Thank you!

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

Norma might have found someone who could make her happy in Romero but when push came to shove she would have chosen Norman.  

Would have? When push came to shove, she did choose Norman. Right up to breaking up with Romero and writing him a goodbye letter, with her wedding ring in the envelope. This despite, by that point, having strong suspicions that Norman had murdered Emma's mother. And I agree with your comment about Norma and Norman only ever truly loving each other. It didn't escape my notice that all the pictures Dylan seemed to have on his phone was just of them together, without him. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Dobian]

Glad that Emma finally got an episode this season where she actually got to do something.  Sadly her scene with Norman was probably our last scene with her, unless she shows up in the epilogue next week.  I hope she reconciles things with Dylan, but if he heads out into the woods to find Norman, who knows what is going to happen to him.  I was not surprised at all she picked up on Norman not being Norman.  She knows Norman extremely well, and can easily distinguish between his sweet persona and the manipulative person who was standing before her.  I also liked when Norma acknowledged Emma's recognition and spoke of Norman in the third person.

I can't wait to see the look on Romero's face next week when he sees frozen Norma out in the woods (I think that is where they're headed, right?).  This won't end well for him.  The big showdown is probably going to be pretty predictable, but I'm looking forward to the conclusion of this great show.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Dobian

[Fable]

All of Emma’s scenes choked me up, especially the one with Mother.  When she realized she wasn’t talking to Norman, I nearly started to cry.  At least she got some closure. 

They have a lot of things to pack into next week’s finale.  What are the ramifications of finding Chick’s body?  Will Dylan learn about Caleb?  Will Dr. Edwards’ body turn up?  I think a lot of things won’t be answered, but I hope the episode runs long since it is the last one of the series, and there is a lot that can be covered. 

[Bec]

I don't think the show is even trying to sell Romero as "the good guy" at this point, or they wouldn't have had him say Norma is dead and has no say when he was reminded that she wouldn't want him killing Norman. Romero's character has gone from grey to dark. I can buy that. I don't think we're meant to see him as fuelled by love.

This revenge plot has been dragging all season long, I'm just happy to see it coming to a close.

Neither Romero nor Norman has ever been my favorite character, so they could both go die in a fire as far as I'm concerned. They better not take Dylan down with them, though! He's the character I'm most invested in now that Norma's gone!

I'm getting tired of Norman. He had to carry a lot of this season by himself and that's impressive, I know he's the main character and he's complicated and sick and all that, but I'm just plain over seeing so much of just him. I'm ready to see him be done, no matter how that happens. (I really doubt he will die.)

[islandgal140]

Emma's scenes were hard. I think she was more mourning the loss of hope as opposed to her mom. She was robbed of any possibility of getting to know her and maybe reconciling with her, which must especially sting now that she is a mother herself. 

This story at its heart is a tragedy based on human failing. Norman is a mentally ill young man who was failed at every turn, mostly by his mother who paid for her failure with her life.  The beauty of this series is that even though this can only end one way - badly! the 'what ifs' still plague me. As this all chugs towards its inevitable tragic end, I still wail and gnash my teeth when I see possibilities for a different ending come and go. What if Norma had gotten herself help to deal with all her issues growing up instead of focusing unhealthily on Norman? What if Norma hadn't been such a cloying suffocating mother? What if Norma allowed Norman to have relationships and interests outside of her? What if she hadn't turned a blind eye to his issues for so long? What if Norma gotten him the help he needed? What if Norman had been more proactive in trying to get healthy? What if Dylan had joined up with Romero and pursued having Norman committed. 

Why am I surprised that next week is the series finale? I thought there were 2 episodes left? I thought I had more time.

Norma must have that good stuff and really put it on Romero because he sure as hell lost his mind over a ? month romance/marriage that started off as an insurance scam. I don't hate Romero. I actually liked Romero and Norma together more than I care to admit. I just wish they hadn't slapped them together the later part of last season. I wish there had been more build up and time invested into the relationship to explain his single minded feverish obsession.  

I do think part of Romero's darkness might be due to the fact that he has had nothing but time to stew over it all while locked up in prison. 

I don't even know where to start with Dylan.  He was gone for a good part of Norma/Norman's life and when he was around he has always been on the outside looking in. Lawd knows Norma was impossible and no one could tell her nothing about her precious little boy.  I find Madeline insipid and annoying but I can't say she was ALL wrong about Dylan. Yes he knew Norman was mentally ill and dangerous but however, could he have done more? Possibly but Norma would have made it impossible to do so and Norman was for all intents and purposes an adult. 

[Gudzilla]

Romero must die.....     For Chick !!

[Bec]

Dylan has sure tried and tried to get Norman help throughout this series. All while he had plenty of his own problems to deal with. He barely saved himself, it's asking a bit much for him to save everyone else. He sure wishes he could save everyone - he blames himself for far more than he should. I wouldn't expect people like Madeleine to know this, though.

I think Romero started to kind of like Norma ever since she told him most of the truth after Deputy Shelby tried to kill her and her sons in season 1. He's been helping her out ever since, trying not to get too caught up in her crazy drama, but eventually getting sucked in despite himself. It didn't strike me as all that out of left field when they got together in season 4.

Since the beginning of the series, Romero has been balancing on an edge, morality-wise. He's been an "ends justify the means" kind of guy. A lot of shady stuff went on in the town on his watch. He's always been just a shove away from going full dark-side. He got that shove last season.

[Fable]

4 minutes ago, Bec said:

I think Romero started to kind of like Norma ever since she told him most of the truth after Deputy Shelby tried to kill her and her sons in season 1. He's been helping her out ever since, trying not to get too caught up in her crazy drama, but eventually getting sucked in despite himself. It didn't strike me as all that out of left field when they got together in season 4.

I thought so too.  I’m pretty sure a lot of things we see later were telegraphed in earlier episodes that I didn’t quite catch.  Once the whole series is released on DVD, I would like to spend a few days binge watching to see how it all falls together.