S03.E02: Witness

[luna1122]

I've seen much of BB but not all, and while I recognize it as a superior program, I never loved it. I loathed Walter White and wanted his demise from day one. I excused and liked Jesse cuz he was young and stupid, and cute as hell. I loved to watch Mike. But mostly, I hated everyone on it. I ADMIRED it, but I can't say I got actual pleasure from watching it. I get pleasure from BCS, and like it far more than I ever did BB. It's ultimately very tragic, as we know the ending of many of these folks, and Jimmy's Cinnabon present certainly seems worse than death, so far, but it's also often very funny, and it's never not pretty riveting, for me.

Because I was a casual viewer of BB, I didn't know who Francesca or Victor even were. Gus, of course...everybody knows Gus. People who've never seen the show know Gus. But I likely miss a lot of the callbacks/cameos from BB, or don't remember all the connections until I come here and find out what I was missing.

I don't get hate watching either, but a lot of folks seem to enjoy it. I still watch Walking Dead and have hung onto Fear the Walking Dead, just for one actor, but the upcoming season of that is about to begin, and I just can't, despite finding Frank Dillane really watchable and interesting. There's too much TV on to watch even the things I love, let alone when I think something is overrated or poorly done or shark jumpy.

Howard in his tight bright blue suit scaling fences, poorly...that was hilarious. I kind of love to hate Howard, anyway.

I kept yelling at Jimmy that he needed sunglasses while he was so obviously surveilling LPH. Much easier to not be SO obvious with those covering your eyes. My honey said 'oh, man, that coffee is going to taste like shit' as Jimmy kept dumping sugar packet after sugar packet into his cup, so his wincing as he tasted it later was nice.

[Kenz]

Excuse me if someone has mentioned this before, but the scenes where Mike stops his car and walks down the middle of the road disturb me. I know New Mexico is sparsely populated, but come on, the highways can't be that deserted! One of the reasons I like BCS is for the interesting dramatic photography, but I would appreciate less scenes where I worry that a semi truck will come barreling down the road and take out Mike's car AND Mike too!

[charks]

3 pages of great discussion...but not a mention of the most important thing from the episode...

A gorgeous '72 green Chevy Blazer that needs to be in my driveway...like...yesterday.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Kenz said:

Excuse me if someone has mentioned this before, but the scenes where Mike stops his car and walks down the middle of the road disturb me. I know New Mexico is sparsely populated, but come on, the highways can't be that deserted! One of the reasons I like BCS is for the interesting dramatic photography, but I would appreciate less scenes where I worry that a semi truck will come barreling down the road and take out Mike's car AND Mike too!

Good point.  I had a similar reaction to Mike's hijacking of Hector's truck in "Nailed".  It seemed a bit far fetched that he could setup the trap, hijack the truck, tie up the driver, and cut open the tires to get the cash without any cars coming by.  

The same goes for the Los Pollos Hermanos truck hijackings, in BB.  It seemed like after the 2nd one, they left the truck there with the driver shot to death, the two security guys dead of carbon monoxide poisoning, holding M16s, with dozens of bullet holes in the truck.  Wouldn't that have put at least a bit of law enforcement attention on Los Pollos Hermanos?

Just how deserted are roads in NM?

[ALenore]

Quote

Kim's the best, albeit flawed, major character in this show. I hope she gets out mostly unscathed, before getting too enmeshed in the dirty dealings, or getting largely innocently destroyed in the crossfire.

Quote

Unfortunately I doubt that she will get out of it entirely. Considering it seems that she and Jimmy have no relationship anymore by the time Breaking Bad comes around. it has to be something he does to get her in deep trouble. 

Don't worry about Kim, she's going to (with the help of the fixer Ed) change her name to Ellen Swatello and move to Los Angeles to become an assistant DA, then join the firm of Infeld-Daniels.  

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Captanne said:

As for "hate watching"?  No, I get no enjoyment out of that at all.  I don't have the time for it.  I appointment watch television and, then, only what I think is worth my rapidly diminishing free time.

As of the last couple weeks, due to so many great shows being on TV now, I officially reached full TV saturation--that state in which you realize you actually can't watch all the shows you love, because you simply don't have enough time. (Let alone watch shows you don't love.) So I get you.

As for the tracking device in the gas cap...I confess I have to go with a very cursory understanding of it, because attempting anything deeper confuses me. I content myself with: "Someone was trying to track Mike, Mike did some clever shit too clever for me to follow, now Mike is tracking them, and Gus is on to him." That's enough for me to stay with that storyline. Questions like, How did Mike begin to suspect someone was tracking him, why is someone tracking him, how did the tracking device end up in that station wagon, why does Mike even care, are all beyond me. 

I am having more success in tracking the Jimmy/Chuck/Kim story, which is providing me most of the enjoyment I get from the show, which is plenty.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Rewatching, I noticed a few things:

1) Gus seems to have an "aha moment" when he is outside and Jimmy's two tone clunker comes squeaking by from where he had been parked a block or so away, next to Mike.  I think that is the moment when Gus realizes Mike has been tracking his guys.

2) I think Jimmy immediately liked Francesca because a) She couldn't stop herself from laughing at his somewhat inappropriate joke about being early. b) She told the truth about the M being crooked.  He saw that she had a sense of humor and could deal with his bawdy personality and was not a yes woman.

3) Jimmy went into great detail about what he saw in LPH, but failed to mention to Mike that the manager had caught him with his head in the trash.  Does he not get that this might be relevant? Is he ashamed to tell Mike he screwed up? This is the sort of omission that potentially could have gotten Mike killed.

Regarding 2): When Kim pulled Jimmy aside and asked him to consider her legal knowledge and experience (none?), I figured his primary reason for hiring her was that very lack of knowledge; she would not concern herself with his bending any laws. Also, she would be open to being trained in the (Jimmy/Saul) ways of a legal office assistant.

Regarding 3): Also, did Jimmy not notice the broom and dustpan sweeping up whatever would happen to be on the floor where the backpack was, or did he omit it on purpose?

[Captanne]

I was a huge Breaking Bad fan -- came to it late, binged the last half and then returned to watch the first half.  When BCS started, I rewatched the entire series in the correct order.  That's the ONLY show I've ever watched so thoroughly.  But, it doesn't make me an authority -- I don't remember it that well.  Plus, I missed out on the group discussions as it was airing so I don't have the same "group think" others do.  (Frex, I'm neither here nor there about Skyler.)

[nodorothyparker]

I hadn't really thought much about it until now, but Jimmy never mentioned the manager at all.  He only said he made a point to look in the trash.  He left out the part about the manager catching him armpit deep in the bin and talking to him long enough that he would almost certainly be able to identify him if he saw him again.  He was so intent on watching the bag guy that he never noticed the manager sweeping up all around the bag at all, which is kind of the genius of Gus's schtick of blending in.

[Jordan Baker]

I too loved the blurry image of Gus (in his yellow shirt in the background) that slowly came into focus.

I think the way Gus is dressed (his manager outfit, I mean) is just perfect. He is completely pressed and professional. And no one looks better in yellow.

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, nodorothyparker said:

I hadn't really thought much about it until now, but Jimmy never mentioned the manager at all.  He only said he made a point to look in the trash.  He left out the part about the manager catching him armpit deep in the bin and talking to him long enough that he would almost certainly be able to identify him if he saw him again.  He was so intent on watching the bag guy that he never noticed the manager sweeping up all around the bag at all, which is kind of the genius of Gus's schtick of blending in.

I haven't given it much thought, either, but I just assumed the bag man would have bunches of money in the bag, not something that could be unobtrusively swept up with a broom.  I'm not a very creative thinker about all things criminal, though. 

[nodorothyparker]

I have no idea if it means anything or not because I'm not particularly good at this stuff either.  I'm just stuck on the fact that Jimmy both completely missed it and then eliminated Manager Gus from his retelling entirely.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I hadn't really thought much about it until now, but Jimmy never mentioned the manager at all.  He only said he made a point to look in the trash.  He left out the part about the manager catching him armpit deep in the bin and talking to him long enough that he would almost certainly be able to identify him if he saw him again.  He was so intent on watching the bag guy that he never noticed the manager sweeping up all around the bag at all, which is kind of the genius of Gus's schtick of blending in.

I wonder if Jimmy even realized Gus was the manager (owner actually). You might not take a guy who is so unassuming and is pushing a broom to be the guy in charge.  

On an unrelated note, thinking about Gus and LPH made me wonder if we might get a visit from Peter Schuler of Madrigal Electromotive, or perhaps from a Stevia swilling subordinate of his.  

[moi]

59 minutes ago, Kenz said:

Excuse me if someone has mentioned this before, but the scenes where Mike stops his car and walks down the middle of the road disturb me. I know New Mexico is sparsely populated, but come on, the highways can't be that deserted! One of the reasons I like BCS is for the interesting dramatic photography, but I would appreciate less scenes where I worry that a semi truck will come barreling down the road and take out Mike's car AND Mike too!

Yes, the highways really can be that deserted, if they're not a major route.

[Bryce Lynch]

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Regarding 2): When Kim pulled Jimmy aside and asked him to consider her legal knowledge and experience (none?), I figured his primary reason for hiring her was that very lack of knowledge; she would not concern herself with his bending any laws. Also, she would be open to being trained in the (Jimmy/Saul) ways of a legal office assistant.

Regarding 3): Also, did Jimmy not notice the broom and dustpan sweeping up whatever would happen to be on the floor where the backpack was, or did he omit it on purpose?

I don't think there was anything on the floor next to the backpack.  Some people saw a black rectangular shaped object, but on rewatching it is clear that it was a diamond shape black tile, that was part of the pattern of the floor tiles.  

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

I too loved the blurry image of Gus (in his yellow shirt in the background) that slowly came into focus.

I think the way Gus is dressed (his manager outfit, I mean) is just perfect. He is completely pressed and professional. And no one looks better in yellow.

I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree about nobody looking better in yellow. :)

[nodorothyparker]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I wonder if Jimmy even realized Gus was the manager (owner actually). You might not take a guy who is so unassuming and is pushing a broom to be the guy in charge.  

I think some of this goes back to the discussion of Gene the Cinnabon manager and the idea of hiding in plain sight.  A lot of people don't really look at service industry workers much beyond their brief personal interactions with them.  If Jimmy thought about it at all, he probably saw the crisp dress shirt and helpful manner and assumed "manager."  He was much more interested in selling his story about his lost watch and getting out of there to get back to Mike.

[seasquared]

Since the discussion of yellow clothing has come up, has it been discussed yet if color plays as intricate of a role in BCS as it did in BB?

[Tikichick]

On 4/18/2017 at 4:22 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

Kim tried to "steal" Mesa Verde from HHM and Chuck and Howard competed fairly to retain the client.  Then Jimmy broke the law, hurt the client and hurt Chuck and HHM to steal Mesa Verde back for Kim...wno would never have wanted him to do that "for her".  Remember when she said, "You don't save me, I save me."?

Chuck is an insufferable jackass in many, many ways.  Buf there is a good argument that he is the good guy and Jimmy is the bad guy in the Mesa Verde situation.

Again, I love Jimmy and root for him against Chuck.  But, I think an unbiased analysis of the facts would show that Chuck is not the devil and Jimmy the angel.

HHM would never have had Mesa Verde at all if Kim hadn't put in all the effort to bring them in the door.  She deserved respect and appreciation -- and a seat at the table for that.  Instead they decided to leave her cooling her heels with paralegal chores while they made it seem as if only the super hero Chuck could handle the job.  

The biased analysis wouldn't even show Chuck as the devil to Jimmy's angel.  The unbiased analysis does show Jimmy is smart, capable and compassionate, with flaws -- and genuinely loved and cared for his brother.  That same unbiased analysis reveals Chuck is smart, capable of tremendous disrespect and disloyalty to anyone and everyone around him, while pretending to be above it all and perfect to the letter of the law -- and completely incapable of loving and caring for anyone but himself.  

[JudyObscure]

16 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

 He was much more interested in selling his story about his lost watch and getting out of there to get back to Mike.

I kind of wonder why Jimmy thought he needed a  detailed explanation for why he had his arm in the trash?  I would think a simple, "Just dropped something, never mind," would have been enough answer to Gus's, "May I help you."

How much do I love Jimmy?  So much that I'm a little bit jealous of Kim.

I loved BB and binge watched the whole thing twice after someone loaned me the set.  I only hate-watched Skyler. ;) Even so, I like BCS much better, it just has so much more heart.

[Captanne]

It's ironic that a con man is conned by another con man hiding in plain sight.  Btw, Jimmy was the worst surveillance guy I've ever seen.  Even I would have noticed him watching.

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

People are allowed to watch shows for whatever reason works for them.  I'm still hanging in with the Walking Dead universe mostly for the snarking with forum people I enjoy snarking with.

Full confession:  While I think I've probably seen all of the BB episodes over the years, it was my husband who was the huge fan.  Not me.  I know the storylines and who all the big players are, but I don't always recognize on my own a lot of the small stuff you guys point out and I never would have had any idea, for example, who a seemingly minor character like Victor was without this thread.  BB could be a pretty terrific show at times, but it never resonated with me quite the way this one does.  Probably because while most of us will never become megalomaniac drug kingpins, lots of us can relate to having toxic family relationships it took us too long to walk away from or we can point to decision points in our lives where the path not taken very likely would have been the correct one if only we hadn't gotten in our own way.  The writing and portrayals are that good for me.  The BB callbacks are fun and I'm enjoying watching this show slowly start to merge with that one, but I would have been just fine with BCS had it remained a more separate entity too.

I jumped into BCS because I thought BB was an interesting, but particularly well written show.  So well written it made me loathe a wonderfully acted character played by Bryan Cranston, who I absolutely adore.  I was disappointed when the spinoff prequel was going to be about -- Saul?  Ugh, not him.  Fell in love with Jimmy McGill and the Greek tragedy of his life.  I love the more personal stories and humorous touches of this show.  Coming to understand the cross Mike was carrying around and what was underneath the stoic and cunning curmudgeon and his journey into the BB galaxy has been fascinating.  Watching Michael McKean bring the loathsome Chuck to life is fun.  Hanging onto the edge of my seat and holding my breath my girl Kim manages to maintain her hardwon career every week.  This week even allowed me a peek into some of the fun I've been missing out on by not spending more time hanging out with Howard of all people.  

This show gives me great writing, spectacular performances and a lot of the feels -- without a lot of the stress and anxiety of BB.  I'm already mourning what I sense are some of my last days with Jimmy.   Hoping that doesn't mean lots less of my other favorites.

[Boilergal]

On 4/18/2017 at 10:39 AM, Dev F said:

Knowing Gus, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that he has strict rules on how his employees need to stick to the sales script and not call out regulars, which he could frame as being about treating every customer with equal respect but is in fact about not betraying familiarity with any shady cartel minions.

When I was barely out of High School I worked fast food, some frequent customers put off a friendly vibe and you would "hey how are you doing today, good to see you again" and then there were  frequent customers that put off the "don't talk to me" vibe and it was all business.  

I loved how Kim said the same things as Howard about the tape, and double checked that there were no real legal implications - and knew that Chuck had to have another plan for it.   I was really hoping Jimmy would listen to Kim and just let it die, but no he ran right into the trap.  

I did love Jimmy's fury  while kicking in the door, mocking Chuck's illness and destroying the tape while ripping Chuck a new one.  Did not love that Chuck got his way, with witnesses to boot.  I caught myself shaking with a fist wanting so bad to just knock Chuck on his ass - glad Jimmy didn't go that far.  

I have a feeling that Gus is super observant in his restaurants at all times, so someone that is moving tables would definitely catch his eye.   

Edited April 19, 2017 by Boilergal

[Bryce Lynch]

32 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

HHM would never have had Mesa Verde at all if Kim hadn't put in all the effort to bring them in the door.  She deserved respect and appreciation -- and a seat at the table for that.  Instead they decided to leave her cooling her heels with paralegal chores while they made it seem as if only the super hero Chuck could handle the job.  

The biased analysis wouldn't even show Chuck as the devil to Jimmy's angel.  The unbiased analysis does show Jimmy is smart, capable and compassionate, with flaws -- and genuinely loved and cared for his brother.  That same unbiased analysis reveals Chuck is smart, capable of tremendous disrespect and disloyalty to anyone and everyone around him, while pretending to be above it all and perfect to the letter of the law -- and completely incapable of loving and caring for anyone but himself.  

Yes, Kim won the client for HHM, but they were HHM's client.  I did not blame her at all for going after them and I don't blame HHM for trying to retain them.  Chuck actually went out of his way to NOT put down Kim, but rather let MV see that HHM had a lot more experience and resources to handle the account.  Sure, he was largely motivated by wanting to stick it to Jimmy, but he also had a very legitimate desire to retain the client. They chose HHM, too bad for Kim, but no wrongdoing by Chuck.

Jimmy then took it upon himself to break into Chuck's files, steal them, alter them and break in again to restore the originals.  Kim didn't want him to do this and punched him when she found out.  Jimmy probably only intended to help Kim, but he embarrassed his brother and HHM badly and hurt Mesa Verde.  

Jimmy and Chuck both have flaws, but you seem to dismiss Jimmy's flaws as no big deal, while making Chuck's seem far, far worse. 

Jimmy has committed all sorts of unethical, illegal and just mean acts during BCS.  

1) Ran the skateboard scam on Mrs. Kettlemen/Abuelita Salamanca 

2) Copied HHM's trademarks for deceptive advertising

3) Faked being a "hero" who rescued the billboard guy.

4) Helped Mike steal a police officer's notebook,

5) Lied to the DA about the origin of Tuco's gun

6) Lied to the police about squat cobbler to help  a thief and drug dealer go free

7) Fabricated video evidence of squat cobbler

8) Aired a TV commercial in the name of Davis & Main knowing they would never approve it, and jeopardized the firm's reputation.

9) Behaved repulsively at Davis & Main (a firm that had treated him like a king) so he could get fired but keep his bonus

10) Scammed food and drinks off the hotel.

11) Scammed a bottle of Zafiro Anejo off KEN WINS.  OK, THAT wasn't really wrong. since Ken is such a douchebag. :)

12) Went back to Cicero and conned numerous people with Marco. 

13) Pulled the cut and paste scam on his brother

14) Conned his way into a schoolyard and military base to shoot a commercial.

Despite all this, I love Jimmy.  But Chuck is absolutely NOT wrong about him.  He is an unethical man, with the heart of a con artist, who i is happy to do a lot of bad things, and cause harm to others,  to get what he wants.   He has in no way shown that he has really changed from his Slippin' Jimmy days.  He is, as Chuck put it, "a chimp with a machine gun", with his law degree.  He often shows potential to be much better than that.  But, he has not demonstrated that he can resist the lure of cutting corners and being a con artist.    

Edited April 19, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Tikichick]

19 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, we know Jimmy keeps his law license so it is pretty clear he doesn't get convicted of anything serious in the Chuck matter.  We also know he changes his name to Saul Goodman, and I can't see much reason for that, unless Chuck demanded it (unless he was telling Walt the truth when he said it was because the home boys wanted a pipe-hitting member of the tribe, so to speak).

Or was Jimmy's verbal explosion at Chuck an insight into Jimmy deciding to embrace what really sets Chuck off and say for himself, 'sall good, man and set himself up as the antithesis to Chuck in a very public way?  For the first time I think Jimmy understood that Chuck had in fact crossed a line when he told him he had destroyed their family.  Jimmy had no recognition of Chuck's real feelings about him until he knew about the tape.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Or was Jimmy's verbal explosion at Chuck an insight into Jimmy deciding to embrace what really sets Chuck off and say for himself, 'sall good, man and set himself up as the antithesis to Chuck in a very public way?  For the first time I think Jimmy understood that Chuck had in fact crossed a line when he told him he had destroyed their family.  Jimmy had no recognition of Chuck's real feelings about him until he knew about the tape.

I was wondering the same thing.  Is Jimmy's choice to become an over the top, sleazy, ambulance chasing, criminal lawyer, money launderer, etc. his way of getting even with Chuck by embarrassing him?  Good thing Chuck doesn't have electricity, because seeing his brother in those "Better Call Saul!" tv ads would probably kill him.  

[Tikichick]

15 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, Kim won the client for HHM, but they were HHM's client.  I did not blame her at all for going after them and I don't blame HHM for trying to retain them.  Chuck actually went out of his way to NOT put down Kim, but rather let MV see that HHM had a lot more experience and resources to handle the account.  Sure, he was largely motivated by wanting to stick it to Jimmy, but he also had a very legitimate desire to retain the client. They chose HHM, too bad for Kim, but no wrongdoing by Chuck.

Jimmy then took it upon himself to break into Chuck's files, steal them, alter them and break in again to restore the originals.  Kim didn't want him to do this and punched him when she found out.  Jimmy probably only intended to help Kim, but he embarrassed his brother and HHM badly and hurt Mesa Verde.  

Jimmy and Chuck both have flaws, but you seem to dismiss Jimmy's flaws as no big deal, while making Chuck's seem far, far worse. 

Jimmy has committed all sorts of unethical, illegal and just mean acts during BCS.  

1) Ran the skateboard scam on Mrs. Kettlemen/Abuelita Salamanca 

2) Copied HHM's trademarks for deceptive advertising

3) Faked being a "hero" who rescued the billboard guy.

4) Helped Mike steal a police officer's notebook,

5) Lied to the DA about the origin of Tuco's gun

6) Lied to the police about squat cobbler to help  a thief and drug dealer go free

7) Fabricated video evidence of squat cobbler

8) Aired a TV commercial in the name of Davis & Main knowing they would never approve it, and jeopardized the firm's reputation.

9) Behaved repulsively at Davis & Main (a firm that had treated him like a king) so he could get fired but keep his bonus

10) Scammed food and drinks off the hotel.

11) Scammed a bottle of Zafiro Anejo off KEN WINS.  OK, THAT wasn't really wrong. since Ken is such a douchebag. :)

12) Went back to Cicero and conned numerous people with Marco. 

13) Pulled the cut and paste scam on his brother

14) Conned his way into a schoolyard and military base to shoot a commercial.

Despite all this, I love Jimmy.  But Chuck is absolutely NOT wrong about him.  He is an unethical man, with the heart of a con artist, who i is happy to do a lot of bad things, and cause harm to others,  to get what he wants.   He has in no way shown that he has really changed from his Slippin' Jimmy days.  He is, as Chuck put it, "a chimp with a machine gun", with his law degree.  He often shows potential to be much better than that.  But, he has not demonstrated that he can resist the lure of cutting corners and being a con artist.    

Nope, I don't dismiss Jimmy's flaws.  Jimmy doesn't dismiss his flaws.  As I said above, even the biased analysis doesn't show Chuck as the devil to Jimmy's angel.  Jimmy acknowledges Slippin' Jimmy.  Chuck tries to pretend even to himself that he is perfect and knows all.  His illness is his acknowledgment of the real truth of the matter.

HHM had no thought to pursue Mesa Verde without Kim's initiative.  She brought them in and then Chuck insisted she be frozen out.  She deserved her client and would have been happy to be on the team with HHM.  Chuck needs her to suffer because she is in love with Jimmy, so he made sure that couldn't happen.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Tikichick
Forgotten details

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Nope, I don't dismiss Jimmy's flaws.  Jimmy doesn't dismiss his flaws.  Jimmy acknowledges Slippin' Jimmy.  Chuck tries to pretend even to himself that he is perfect and knows all.  His illness is his acknowledgment of the real truth of the matter.

HHM had no thought to pursue Mesa Verde without Kim's initiative.  She brought them in and then Chuck insisted she be frozen out.  She deserved her client. 

You could argue that it was wrong for Kim to try to steal a client from her old firm, especially after they paid for her law school and promoted her out of the mail room.  

I was fine with Kim going after Mesa Verde, but the firm that "deserved" the client was whichever one could convince the client they could serve them best.  HHM did nothing illegal or unethical to undermine Kim, they won the client fair and square.  I think Kim understood this, it was only Jimmy who couldn't accept it and turned to criminal activity to "correct the injustice". 

Don't get me wrong, I loved watching Jimmy do his magic in the copy shop and watching Chuck be made a fool of in front of the banking commission.  But, if I am being honest with myself, I'd have to say I was probably rooting for the bad guy.  

Edited April 19, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Bryce Lynch]

Does any else think that Paige from Mesa Verde might have a thing for Kim?  They always hugged at every meeting, including I believe the first, which seems like odd behavior for an attorney and client, especially a corporate client  She also seemed to push Kevin very hard to hire Kim.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You could argue that it was wrong for Kim to try to steal a client from her old firm, especially after they paid for her law school and promoted her out of the mail room.  

I was fine with Kim going after Mesa Verde, but the firm that "deserved" the client was whichever one could convince the client they could serve them best.  HHM did not illegal or unethical to undermine Kim, they won the client fair and square.  I think Kim understood this, it was only Jimmy who couldn't accept it and turned to criminal activity to "correct the injustice". 

Don't get me wrong, I loved watching Jimmy do his magic in the copy shop and watching Chuck be made a fool of in front of the banking commission.  But, if I am being honest with myself, I'd have to say I was probably rooting for the bad guy.  

But Kim wasn't the one behind the sabotage, at all.  Kim would have been perfectly content to serve Mesa Verde with the HHM team and continue doing the excellent work that enabled her to climb out of that mailroom.  Just because HHM left the rope there for her to assist the climb doesn't mean it was a walk in the park to make it.  She's an excellent attorney who should have been properly rewarded for delivering them a client like Mesa Verde.  She couldn't be rewarded simply because Chuck cannot allow her to go on loving Jimmy and he's going to destroy it any way he can.

I was rooting for the good attorney to get her rightful client, because she did nothing wrong and is not a bad guy.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Tikichick said:

But Kim wasn't the one behind the sabotage, at all.  Kim would have been perfectly content to serve Mesa Verde with the HHM team and continue doing the excellent work that enabled her to climb out of that mailroom.  Just because HHM left the rope there for her to assist the climb doesn't mean it was a walk in the park to make it.  She's an excellent attorney who should have been properly rewarded for delivering them a client like Mesa Verde.  She couldn't be rewarded simply because Chuck cannot allow her to go on loving Jimmy and he's going to destroy it any way he can.

I was rooting for the good attorney to get her rightful client, because she did nothing wrong and is not a bad guy.

HHM can decide who it wants to put on what clients and what jobs to assign its associates to.  Kim didn't like the assignments she was getting and chose to leave, which was absolutely her right, and IMO the smart thing to do.   But she was is no way "entitled" to take any clients.  She made her pitch to Mesa Verde and nearly got them, but then Chuck made a better pitch and kept them.   I also wanted Kim to get Mesa Verde, but Jimmy's bitterness about her losing them and especially his criminal behavior to change that decision were totally uncalled for.  

[Tikichick]

28 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

HHM can decide who it wants to put on what clients and what jobs to assign its associates to.  Kim didn't like the assignments she was getting and chose to leave, which was absolutely her right, and IMO the smart thing to do.   But she was is no way "entitled" to take any clients.  She made her pitch to Mesa Verde and nearly got them, but then Chuck made a better pitch and kept them.   I also wanted Kim to get Mesa Verde, but Jimmy's bitterness about her losing them and especially his criminal behavior to change that decision were totally uncalled for.  

Absolutely it was the smart thing to leave, even if she didn't understand what was behind her getting the shaft.  In the legal world it would be beyond dirty for the associate to bring them a client this big and then, not only be completely shut out from the account, but to be assigned the grunt work and the volume of it that she was.  She knew something was very wrong and that she had to leave, she just didn't have any idea what was actually behind it.

Chuck, and Howard, deserve what they get on that scale in my book -- even though Kim wasn't behind that cold dish winding up on their table.  

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Hate watching can be fun.  I hate watched 2 seasons of "Under the Dome".   That said, I think hate watching is only enjoyable when the show gives you lots of mocking material.  

True.  But I can only hate watch cheesy reality shows which provide a ton of mocking material.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Absolutely it was the smart thing to leave, even if she didn't understand what was behind her getting the shaft.  In the legal world it would be beyond dirty for the associate to bring them a client this big and then, not only be completely shut out from the account, but to be assigned the grunt work and the volume of it that she was.  She knew something was very wrong and that she had to leave, she just didn't have any idea what was actually behind it.

Chuck, and Howard, deserve what they get on that scale in my book -- even though Kim wasn't behind that cold dish winding up on their table.  

Was it ever clearly revealed whether it was Howard, Chuck, or both keeping Kim in document review?

As for Kim, she had sort of screwed Howard by convincing him to recommend Jimmy to Davis & Main.  Also, as far as Howard knew, Kim knew that Jimmy was airing the unauthorized ad and she didn't warn Howard.  Of course, Kim didn't know in advance, but she let Howard think she did.  

So, they weren't totally wrong for sticking her in document review for a while.  She tried to redeem herself by landing Mesa Verde, and maybe that should have been enough.  But, ultimately it is up to her bosses to decide how and if she can redeem herself. 

Like most of the relationships in BCS, the relationship between Kim and HHM is complex.  They were very good to her, in many ways, (how many mail room clerks get their law school tuition paid for?) but also probably mistreated her.  She did some great work, but also screwed up, and hurt the firm's reputation,  in pushing for Jimmy.  Kim was a big girl, and instead of being bitter, she decided to move on.  Jimmy being an impulsive child couldn't stand to see her lose MV and did something very stupid and illegal.  

[Bryce Lynch]

29 minutes ago, RealReality said:

True.  But I can only hate watch cheesy reality shows which provide a ton of mocking material.

I'm assuming you never watched Under the Dome, because it was a treasure trove for snark.  "The pink stars are falling in line!"

[luna1122]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm assuming you never watched Under the Dome, because it was a treasure trove for snark.  "The pink stars are falling in line!"

It was the worst show ever. Well, probably not. But close. But I merely hated it, I couldn't bring myself to watch even one full season, let alone hang on for the snark. If I'd never seen Dean Norris in anything else, I'd have assumed he was a terrible actor. Writing really does make a difference, and even good actors can't overcome it.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

It was the worst show ever. Well, probably not. But close. But I merely hated it, I couldn't bring myself to watch even one full season, let alone hang on for the snark. If I'd never seen Dean Norris in anything else, I'd have assumed he was a terrible actor. Writing really does make a difference, and even good actors can't overcome it.

Funny, they mentioned Dean Norris and Under the Dome on the latest BCS Insider Podcast.  Apparently Dean has a new show coming out in June called, "Claws".  It is about a nail salon...no really, I'm not joking.  

[Tikichick]

21 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Was it ever clearly revealed whether it was Howard, Chuck, or both keeping Kim in document review?

As for Kim, she had sort of screwed Howard by convincing him to recommend Jimmy to Davis & Main.  Also, as far as Howard knew, Kim knew that Jimmy was airing the unauthorized ad and she didn't warn Howard.  Of course, Kim didn't know in advance, but she let Howard think she did.  

So, they weren't totally wrong for sticking her in document review for a while.  She tried to redeem herself by landing Mesa Verde, and maybe that should have been enough.  But, ultimately it is up to her bosses to decide how and if she can redeem herself. 

Like most of the relationships in BCS, the relationship between Kim and HHM is complex.  They were very good to her, in many ways, (how many mail room clerks get their law school tuition paid for?) but also probably mistreated her.  She did some great work, but also screwed up, and hurt the firm's reputation,  in pushing for Jimmy.  Kim was a big girl, and instead of being bitter, she decided to move on.  Jimmy being an impulsive child couldn't stand to see her lose MV and did something very stupid and illegal.  

 

Bagging Mesa Verde squared her with HHM, big time.  Except no, it couldn't.  The reason for that is clearly Chuck.  I don't need it spelled out for me any clearer than what played out on the screen.  If that didn't have Chuck's stink all over it, I don't know what does.

[luna1122]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Funny, they mentioned Dean Norris and Under the Dome on the latest BCS Insider Podcast.  Apparently Dean has a new show coming out in June called, "Claws".  It is about a nail salon...no really, I'm not joking.  

omg, I just looked this up. It looks like it might be hilarious. And Dean's character is named "Uncle Daddy". Baha.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 

Bagging Mesa Verde squared her with HHM, big time.  Except no, it couldn't.  The reason for that is clearly Chuck.  I don't need it spelled out for me any clearer than what played out on the screen.  If that didn't have Chuck's stink all over it, I don't know what does.

After Kim landed Mesa Verde, didn't Chuck ask Howard if Kim was out of the dog house and Chuck indicated he wasn't sure yet?  Was that just Chuck subtly ordering Howard to keep her in doc review or was that a sincere exchange between them?

11 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

omg, I just looked this up. It looks like it might be hilarious. And Dean's character is named "Uncle Daddy". Baha.

I am definitely either watching or hate watching! :)
 

[Dev F]

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 

Bagging Mesa Verde squared her with HHM, big time.  Except no, it couldn't.  The reason for that is clearly Chuck.  I don't need it spelled out for me any clearer than what played out on the screen.  If that didn't have Chuck's stink all over it, I don't know what does.

Except that the show explicitly showed us the opposite -- Chuck advocating for Kim to be taken out of the penalty box, and Howard refusing.

The show was also pretty clear that Chuck likes Kim and considers her a kindred spirit, so I'm not sure how it suggested that he was somehow secretly plotting against her. Chuck can certainly be a jerk, but he's a jerk in very specific ways that don't warrant holding him responsible for every bad thing that happens at HHM.

[xbones]

Well, it took me awhile to find this forum, but now here and wanting to read discussion on this incredible show, loved this episode. Jimmy showed some great acting skills in the last scene. As always, great writing, acting, filming and directing. One thing I noticed in the intro credits, lots of women involved. That's pretty darn cool Vince and Peter!

[knaankos]

In Breaking Bad and in this show I used to always find it unrealistic when they would go to roads that had absolutely nobody around for miles. But that was when I lived in the east. Now that I live in Utah I see that it's pretty common in the west. So much empty space and fewer people. I just did a 2.5 hour drive to Capitol Reef national park and I was the only car on the highways for about 90% of the drive. So I find those scenes much more plausible now.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

Except that the show explicitly showed us the opposite -- Chuck advocating for Kim to be taken out of the penalty box, and Howard refusing.

The show was also pretty clear that Chuck likes Kim and considers her a kindred spirit, so I'm not sure how it suggested that he was somehow secretly plotting against her. Chuck can certainly be a jerk, but he's a jerk in very specific ways that don't warrant holding him responsible for every bad thing that happens at HHM.

I think there's more to be seen there as far as the machinations Chuck had in motion.  Always took that scene as what we weren't seeing more than what we were being shown.  For me, I always watch Chuck for Machiavellian subtext because I see him as someone who feels he's the smartest guy in the room and entitled to be manipulating what's happening with "lesser lifeforms".   Howard may be the one out front and seen by many as the public face of HHM, but let's face it, Chuck wants it that way.  I believe it was simply H&M long before Howard was able to stand before the bar -- a fact I'm sure Chuck has been certain to keep subtly reminding Howard on the regular over the years.   Even if it hasn't been revealed to us on screen yet, IMO Chuck has somehow played Howard in regard to Kim's situation and what we saw was the result, but far from the truth of the matter.

As far as Chuck liking Kim?  Nope, not buying it.   Jimmy's rant shed a little light on what happened with Chuck's wife.   It wasn't a coincidence our glimpse of Rebecca with Chuck was her introduction to Jimmy -- and running afoul of the directive not to be taken in by his charm and his humor.  Doesn't matter what Chuck might think about Kim, she became collateral damage the minute Chuck realized Jimmy loves her.

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was wondering the same thing.  Is Jimmy's choice to become an over the top, sleazy, ambulance chasing, criminal lawyer, money launderer, etc. his way of getting even with Chuck by embarrassing him?  Good thing Chuck doesn't have electricity, because seeing his brother in those "Better Call Saul!" tv ads would probably kill him.  

That could turn out to be some part of his motivation,  but it can't be the whole story, in my view, because he could never stay in Kim's good graces as Saul.  She's going to have to be part of his change.  Plus throw in that he loves putting stuff over on people.  It's in his bone marrow but of course it is also his undoing. 

[Blakeston]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Does any else think that Paige from Mesa Verde might have a thing for Kim?  They always hugged at every meeting, including I believe the first, which seems like odd behavior for an attorney and client, especially a corporate client  She also seemed to push Kevin very hard to hire Kim.

I've suspected that since we first met Paige. She's always gushing over Kim.

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, Boilergal said:

Wit w

I loved how Kim said the same things as Howard about the tape, and double checked that there were no real legal implications - and knew that Chuck had to have another plan for it.   I was really hoping Jimmy would listen to Kim and just let it die, but no he ran right into the trap.  

I did love Jimmy's fury  while kicking in the door, mocking Chuck's illness and destroying the tape while ripping Chuck a new one.  Did not love that Chuck got his way, with witnesses to boot.  I caught myself shaking with a fist wanting so bad to just knock Chuck on his ass - glad Jimmy didn't go that far. 

 

On 4/18/2017 at 5:24 AM, millennium said:

I suppose that's one way to look at it.  If we had no idea where it's all leading, it might even make sense.   But most of us already know the broad strokes of the storyline, so trying to build suspense in the face of that knowledge tends to foment frustration and annoyance instead.   We're hungry for substance but all we're getting is style.  The gas caps ... I now know more about aftermarket gas caps than I ever dreamed I would.   Drawn out scenes of people swapping out batteries.   I want to scream "COME ON ALREADY!"

I don't get the objections to BB characters.   It's a BB spinoff.   The premise of the whole show is to set the stage for BB.   Stop fighting the tide.

Kim really rocks those skirts.

 

On 4/18/2017 at 9:08 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

I also enjoyed Francesca.  She seemed a lot more friendly and upbeat, which makes sense.  I'm sure years of dealing with Saul Goodman's shenanigans and his lowlife clients would wear on a person.

I am not 100% sure, but I think after Jimmy's fiasco at LPH, Fring figured out that Mike had been tracking his men and intentionally let Mike track them, so he could leave him the phone.  It was a bit like Chuck intentionally allowing Ernie to "accidentally" here the Jimmy tape.

Kim's reaction was interesting, basically getting 100% behind Jimmy.  Is it love, pity, disgust with Chuck?

So now we know that Saul got Ice Station Zebra Associates and the "gimme a dollar so we will have attorney-client privilege" thing from Kim.  

 

On 4/18/2017 at 9:58 AM, JudyObscure said:

 

Chuck is a pretentious snob who treats people like they're beneath him while Jimmy is patient with old people and has just the right thing to say to everyone.  I think he is basically a very kind person.  However. who does lasting harm to people?  What are the ripple effects of the con's Jimmy has pulled?  We know his father lost his business.  We know the young Air Force Captain was hurt and humiliated when he found out Jimmy had made a fool of him. 

I don't think anything is black and white here or that Chuck = Bad and Jimmy= Good.  That's what I love about this show.

 

On 4/18/2017 at 10:55 AM, Auntie Anxiety said:

I thought for sure that Jimmy was going to ask Mike to sneak into Chuck's place at some point and steal the tape recorder but Jimmy's anger blinded him. His emotions are his Achilles' heel.

I think one of the reasons the Mike story line might drag for some people is that this type of tough guy detective work is exciting, because we think there is a chance the character could be in great danger. 

Spoiler

 

In Breaking Bad I thought it was a mistake to fast forward to Walt's 52nd birthday.  The action was always so heart stopping for me because I never knew if Walter was going to die and I know Gilligan had the balls to kill off his main character, like Game of Thrones.  Knowing that Walt will at least live another year, took away some of that suspense.

 

We know Gus will not kill Mike.  We know they will get along and that is why those scenes drag a little.

I was puzzled by Jimmy's reaction last night.  I did not understand why he was so angry, when Chuck has deceived him before.  I at first thought he was hurt, but then I realized it was not that simple.

Jimmy is aware his brother thinks he is a loser.  He was heartbroken when he found out that it was Chuck, not Howard who insisted he stay in the mail room.  Chuck can no longer hurt him with his lies.

Jimmy's anger is the very black and white way which the brothers look at each other.  Chuck thinks of Jimmy has the con artist lowlife who does not deserve the love and adoration his natural charm brings his way.  Jimmy looks at Chuck as the successful big brother who is always on the straight and narrow.

One of the things Jimmy always took pride in was his cons.  He loves outsmarting a nasty jerk, by using their own greediness against them.

That's when it hit me, Jimmy was angry because Chuck CONNED HIM.  He never thought Chuck would have the cunning to pull something like that off and the fact that he snookered by his straight laced but kooky brother burned him up.

I do love Jimmy (it's really hard not to), but since the poster above has talked about Jimmy's actions hurting people....the one time Jimmy was horrible was when he was trying to leave Davis and Main.  It was a wonderfully hilarious episode with the inflatable man, but he was being an ass to a law firm that had been nothing but good to him.  Ed Begly Jr's character could have been the big brother's whose guidance and approval he always craved, ironically.

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She tried to redeem herself by landing Mesa Verde, and maybe that should have been enough.  But, ultimately it is up to her bosses to decide how and if she can redeem herself.

Exactly.  In her mind, bringing in a new client would get her out of the doghouse but that was not something she discussed with her superiors, unfortunately.  It has been a while since I've watched season 2 but didn't she also have the chance to go to a bigger firm?  That would have likely solidified her relationship with Mesa Verde given size is the one thing she couldn't offer. 

I think Howard knew the risks of keeping her on Doc Review.  Kim knew the risks of leaving, not joining a larger law firm and going out on her own. 

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

Quote

Excuse me if someone has mentioned this before, but the scenes where Mike stops his car and walks down the middle of the road disturb me. I know New Mexico is sparsely populated, but come on, the highways can't be that deserted! One of the reasons I like BCS is for the interesting dramatic photography, but I would appreciate less scenes where I worry that a semi truck will come barreling down the road and take out Mike's car AND Mike too!

Yes. I was born in Albuquerque and have relatives in various places in NM. I went out a couple of years ago to El Paso and drove into NM to see my cousin and her family. There are these big open two lane roads that just seem deserted and go NOWHERE in the middle of the desert. We went to some swanky cattle ranch/restaurant on the border between NM and Texas and drove on a road like that for about 45 minutes without seeing another car until we found ANOTHER road to turn onto, drove another 15 min without seeing anybody else and ended up at the destination. 

Damn, Chuck is one cold reptilian SOB. This isn't about the law or HHM - it's about two brothers, the younger who idolizes the older (and the younger is a bit of a screw-up) and the older who is so damn jealous of his charming little brother that he cannot stand it. 

[Clanstarling]

On 4/18/2017 at 7:09 AM, ShadowFacts said:

Not sure if I am getting what you're asking, but there are maybe multiple cashiers who work different shifts and newer ones wouldn't yet recognize regulars? 

I admit to being a little fuzzy on all this cat-and-mouse, but I thought that even before Jimmy's fiasco, Gus had figured out Mike's movements and that is why the backpack wasn't left anywhere or exchanged. 

I figured Gus's sweeping was some kind of warning. A signal in plain sight.

On 4/18/2017 at 8:14 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

The "Mom loved Jimmy best" thing made me think of Jesse and Jake Pinkman.  When Jesse told his "perfect" little brother than he was their parents' favorite, Jake looked at him like he was crazy and said something like "Me their favorite?  All they ever talk about is you!"  Like Jake, Chuck may have mistaken all the concern and worrying over his troubled sibling as meaning his parents loved Jimmy more. 

Great observation, and the connection of this theme in BB and BCS is probably not coincidental. Someone knows brotherly jealousy pretty darned well.

On 4/18/2017 at 0:18 PM, RealReality said:

I like Mike's story because, to me, it makes sense.  If, earlier, you had the gas cap and the phone in the middle of the road it wouldn't make as much sense.

But now I wonder where and how it all went left.  When did Gus know, how did he know, who saw him.  Mike has seemingly been meticulous at every turn, so what went wrong?

My suspicion is that Mike was a wee bit sloppy - he took apart that beater, but he only looked at the gas cap on his regular car because he though he had it all figured out. Gus may have put more than one device on that car, knowing that Mike would be looking for a tracking device once he left that note.

On 4/18/2017 at 0:35 PM, RealReality said:

True, but how did he connect Jimmy and Mike so quickly?

 

On 4/18/2017 at 0:50 PM, RealReality said:

 

True, true.  Although I thought Mike bought a new car?  Wasn't that where he was when he was talking to the pip?

Good point. In that case, though, I think Gus confirmed their connection visually. He didn't need to put a tracker on that car, though, since he knew Mike would be tracking backpack guy.

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I kind of wonder why Jimmy thought he needed a  detailed explanation for why he had his arm in the trash?  I would think a simple, "Just dropped something, never mind," would have been enough answer to Gus's, "May I help you."

I thought he'd go for what (to me) was obvious and I noticed before he started digging - he'd thrown the basket into the trash. Instead he has the long watch explanation, and then later, Gus casually takes the basket out of the garbage.

7 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I jumped into BCS because I thought BB was an interesting, but particularly well written show.  So well written it made me loathe a wonderfully acted character played by Bryan Cranston, who I absolutely adore.  I was disappointed when the spinoff prequel was going to be about -- Saul?  Ugh, not him.  Fell in love with Jimmy McGill and the Greek tragedy of his life.  I love the more personal stories and humorous touches of this show.  Coming to understand the cross Mike was carrying around and what was underneath the stoic and cunning curmudgeon and his journey into the BB galaxy has been fascinating.  Watching Michael McKean bring the loathsome Chuck to life is fun.  Hanging onto the edge of my seat and holding my breath my girl Kim manages to maintain her hardwon career every week.  This week even allowed me a peek into some of the fun I've been missing out on by not spending more time hanging out with Howard of all people.  

This show gives me great writing, spectacular performances and a lot of the feels -- without a lot of the stress and anxiety of BB.  I'm already mourning what I sense are some of my last days with Jimmy.   Hoping that doesn't mean lots less of my other favorites.

Pretty much word for word what I would have said, if I'd taken the time and thought to compose it. I actually like BCS better, because I actually like Jimmy (for all his flaws) and hate to see him go down the path he's going on. Whereas Walter White was always offputting to me, but fascinating.

6 hours ago, RealReality said:

True.  But I can only hate watch cheesy reality shows which provide a ton of mocking material.

Zoo is the only show I hate watched (though I went into it with some hope). I watched the entire first season primarily because the forum was so much fun. Pretty much everyone hated the show - or at least mourned for the lost potential.

On another note, I loved the detail when Jimmy was taking off the tape from their logo using Chuck's method, methodically rolling it and leaving a clean edge, and then was "f**k it", ripped it off (leaving a less clean edge).

Also - does Mike ever sleep?

Edited April 19, 2017 by Clanstarling
to add a couple other observations