S09.E02: It Girl, Interrupted

[Jel]

2 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

Marginalize. Perfect description.

Beth suffers from ugly girl syndrome.

From the first season it was written all over her face (pun intended) :-)

You can tell by the way she automatically has a chip on her shoulder with pretty women.

Kelly, Jules, Kristen

And Lu??

Boy that's why she goes so ballistic. Not only is Lu gorgeous she is fabulllloussss.

She doesn't like it when it's rubbed in that ugly mug of hers that other women are way more attractive than her and with Lu it just drips off of her effortlessly. That's what truly sends Beth over the edge.

I've seen things like that first hand. Pretty sad up close. Being fabulous really does comes with a price........

Haters.

They ain't just a myth. I know that from experience.

LOL.

I gotta say I just don't see "who is prettier" as a main concern in Bethenny's life.  Or any adult woman's life. (Not the women I know anyway.)

[Almost 3000]

4 hours ago, Ki-in said:

I was skeptical at first over the ghostwriter rumors now I believe them wholeheartedly.

I was always on Carole's side because I read her first book before she appeared as a RHW and was touched by it. I'm now wondering how much her sister helped with the book because they were living together for much of that time. Its the one thing that's different from her writing environment then and now. I too no longer believe Carole wrote her first book by herself. I think another voice was involved be it a ghostwriter, sister, very involved editor, all of the above, whatever...
 

[archer1267]

Didn't LuAnn use a ghostwriter or someone who helped her along? I remember her sitting down with someone and telling them anecdotes, like about the time when she was horrified that her date expected to go Dutch on a date. I looked at her book just now and expected to see an "as told to..." distinction.  Maybe this woman just sat with her initially and helped her sort through what was worth sharing and what wasn't.

[Mozelle]

1 hour ago, Almost 3000 said:

I was always on Carole's side because I read her first book before she appeared as a RHW and was touched by it. I'm now wondering how much her sister helped with the book because they were living together for much of that time. Its the one thing that's different from her writing environment then and now. I too no longer believe Carole wrote her first book by herself. I think another voice was involved be it a ghostwriter, sister, very involved editor, all of the above, whatever...
 

I don't think anyone writes a book by herself unless it goes through some sort of self-publishing with no kind of outside review (i.e., from draft to press). That said, a ghost writer and an editor are not the same. Any book that's going to be published the traditional route will have an editor, and oftentimes an editor will be the clear eyes to say, "Hmmm. Maybe move this part several pages ahead/back...flesh out this interaction...let's strike this bit here...the language is kind of stilted here..." None of that means that the writer didn't write her book. 

Ta-Nehisi Coates spoke in glowing terms about the editor for his book, Between the World and Me; about how he whipped the book into shape. That's the editor's job. It still doesn't mean that the writer didn't write the published book. 

[Ki-in]

Yes, but Carole resisted ANY type of alteration to her prose, I think they showed that in like season 6 or 7. She basically insists it goes from her head to the page and that's it. No rewrites. Yet she couldn't churn out a cook book introduction.

[Mozelle]

Yeah, I think Carole was playing to the cameras there (particularly given Aviva's earlier ridiculousness in that episode). The look on Carole's editor's face said as much to me. Her editor was looking at her like, "Oooooo-K, Carole. Sure you don't take any edits. Mhmm."

[Yours Truly]

3 hours ago, Jel said:

I gotta say I just don't see "who is prettier" as a main concern in Bethenny's life.  Or any adult woman's life. (Not the women I know anyway.)

You'd be surprised.

And it's not exactly about the "pretty"

It's about the attention the pretty gets. The validation.

Beths all about the attention 

She's also all about whether someone does or doesn't deserve validation.

Like it's her job or something.

[Trooper York]

10 hours ago, Mozelle said:

Wasn't Aviva the only source with her "word on the street"? And then she name checked an editor friend of Carole's, acting as though she'd heard from him that he had done more than provide feedback? Aviva? The same woman who lists two industry ghost writers in the acknowledgement of her book but went on to say that she actually wrote the book herself? 

Heh. Credible source that Aviva is.

You don't have to believe Aviva. Just the evidence of your lying eyes. Carole can't even come up with the introduction to a lame ass cookbook. Her interaction with her editor was laughable. Read her tweets. Does that sound like a writer to you or just a numskull?

Aviva most likely wrote her book the same way Carole did. With heavy editing and shaping and ghost writing that was not really acknowledged because of their overwhelming egos.

[Mozelle]

10 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

You don't have to believe Aviva. Just the evidence of your lying eyes. Carole can't even come up with the introduction to a lame ass cookbook. Her interaction with her editor was laughable. Read her tweets. Does that sound like a writer to you or just a numskull?

Aviva most likely wrote her book the same way Carole did. With heavy editing and shaping and ghost writing that was not really acknowledged because of their overwhelming egos.

Heh. That actually does sound like a writer. I don't know who to blame for giving the idea that writers just sit down lakeside and the words just flow. I mean, it may happen for some, but for plenty others? Not so much. 

I also follow a number of journalists and writers (and poets) and contributors/freelancers on Twitter. I see them interact with people who hop into their mentions to insult them (or to complain: "Ugh. I liked you until you said this thing about...") because they didn't like the tweet said writer sent. I see these writers, etc. come back quick with their responses in myriad ways:

• "You don't have the range. Stop."
• "Nope." 
• "Oh, look who's here to mansplain again!"
• "Oh, STFU!" (this I've seen when they've tired of the back and forth)

I guess I'm not certain how the interaction should play out on Twitter if someone jumps into Twitter User X's mentions to complain about, say, her sharing her political views on her Twitter account. You could always not follow; that option exists. But if the other choice is to engage Twitter User X by complaining to her, well, she should be able to give right back. 

[HunterHunted]

7 hours ago, Ki-in said:

Yes, but she hasn't written the book she said she was writing in season 7 and continuing into season 8. All she had to do was write an introduction to the book, all Adam (who has always seemed like a prize she won and flaunts rather than a real boyfriend who is an equal) had to do was compile a list of vegetables for his "sexy salads". If she is so well respected then getting a publisher shouldn't have been a problem, do publishers really care if the authors are dating or broken up which is a reason she cited for it not panning out (although she never got through one immature vegan boy meets junk food girl sentence for the intro). Was it a romance novel or a cook book? I was skeptical at first over the ghostwriter rumors now I believe them wholeheartedly. 

I guess I don't view the vegan cookbook as a sign of Carole being lazy, a flake, or a sham. Carole's been pretty clear from the beginning that she doesn't cook and if left to her own devices, has a diet that is a lot like Donald Trump's--a lot of junk food. Given that, Adam was always going to be responsible for the recipes and he never seemed particularly invested in working on the book.

There is category called the "foodoir." It's part cookbook and part memoir. David Lebovitz is known for them. Edna Lewis is another well known author in this style. I think Gwyneth Paltrow's cookbook is probably another. I imagine that whatever book Adam and Carole conceived would be in this vein, but lighter on the memoir because they actually haven't been together that long. However, what they were working on in season 8 was a pitch because Carole had gone to her publisher and asked to swap out her collection of essays for a cookbook. The publisher's response was basically "NOPE!" So she actually had to pitch it. I don't think anyone was interested.

The other thing that is also important to note is that Carole is known for a particular type of writing none of which really involves cooking or food. I can think of a ton of really well known authors that a publisher might not automatically approve a cookbook because the author isn't known for that: Doris Kearns Goodwin A baseball food cookbook, she's a baseball fan and a historian, but no one thinks of food when they think of her; James Patterson or Mary Higgins Clark; Bill O'Reilly; Jeffrey Toobin; David Simon. No one in their right mind would buy a cookbook from any of these people. True Carole wrote a memoir and the Widow's Guide, but the latter was not successful. If I'm buying cookbooks from folks on this show it would be in this order Bethenny, Sonja, Tinsley she wrote Southern Charm and contributed material to The Park Avenue diet, and Dorinda.

The status of Carole's collection of essays is completely on her.

[Trooper York]

I just published my first book on Amazon Direct to Kindle and I proud to say that I did it all myself. No editor. No proofreader. No ghostwriter. All of the misspelling, grammar errors, screw ups, mistakes and errors in tense are totally on me.

Direct to Kindle E books are the future of publishing. In fact it is the present. Publishing houses are dinosaurs chewing ferns in the swamp who don't realize that the meteor hit and they will be extinct in ten years. Publishing climate change you see.

Carole will never publish another thing. Unless she self publishes a direct to Kindle E book like the rest of us. The money for very marginal books is gone forever. 

[ryebread]

20 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I guess I don't view the vegan cookbook as a sign of Carole being lazy, a flake, or a sham. Carole's been pretty clear from the beginning that she doesn't cook and if left to her own devices, has a diet that is a lot like Donald Trump's--a lot of junk food.

Good heavens.  Don't anybody suggest to Carole via Twitter that she shares a similar diet to Donald Trump.  Nuclear.

I don't view the crash and burn of the cookbook as her being lazy, a flake or a sham, either.  Her dicking around her publisher is what makes her lazy, a flake and a sham.

[Petunia13]

I think a lot of writers love the craft and have a passion for the arts in myriad forms. Carole hasn't really shown that. In fact, she can come across as pretty basic and bland.

I do not consider her having published 2 books a huge achievement. If her books were the caliber of Donna Tartt or something...maybe. Even then that author has published more and shows a love of literature through her social circle and hobbies. I think many creators can be open minded and dynamic and Carole IMHO is not. 

[Gam2]

Yes, I was flummoxed when Carole had that meeting with her editor and seemed astounded that the deadlines  for submissions of her next book were actually.......you know, deadlines? The deadlines that were based on the advanced payments she's already received? I believed then and do now that that whole scene was for the cameras only except that her editor acted like she was really annoyed with Carole for wasting HER time with this nonsense. I think Carole is a lazy, childish woman who needs to just grow up.

[Atlanta]

Is Tinsley's book any good? Did she really write it? Not throwing shade, but just curious. She's got a degree from Columbia, but it's in art history.

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

I was skeptical at first over the ghostwriter rumors now I believe them wholeheartedly. 

Me too. I loved What Remains. Thought it was so beautifully done. I only started believing the rumors after 1) reading The Widow's Guide which was not beautiful, or interesting, or even good; 2) the fact that she never bothered with the second book (proof that she realized she didn't have what it takes on her own); 3) hearing that her sister-in-law, who helped Carol with What Remains, was a professional ghostwriter who had many many many books to her credit. 

Writing is hard work. You have to be very motivated, either by money or ambition, to get it done. Carole already has money and her ambition is probably doused by the failure of The Widow's Guide, so I don't see her putting in the effort at this point in her life. 

[Lemons]

1 hour ago, Trooper York said:

I just published my first book on Amazon Direct to Kindle and I proud to say that I did it all myself. No editor. No proofreader. No ghostwriter. All of the misspelling, grammar errors, screw ups, mistakes and errors in tense are totally on me.

Direct to Kindle E books are the future of publishing. In fact it is the present. Publishing houses are dinosaurs chewing ferns in the swamp who don't realize that the meteor hit and they will be extinct in ten years. Publishing climate change you see

I hope that's not true. I don't want to slog through a ton of amateur "writers", especially some long winded non-proofread book full of errors. That's what the publishing houses protect the public from. And let's hope that Amazon never becomes a monopoly for books. 

[Trooper York]

Direct publishing is democracy in action. People get to put out what they want to say without gatekeepers hewing the politically correct line. If you don't want to read it that's just fine and dandy. People get to compete in the market place of ideas. Talent will out. 

Personally I don't care for vampire teen sex books or English boarding school warlocks but some people love them. Who am I to tell them otherwise. A condescending pretentious snot like Carole? Who could not credit that someone like Aviva would be able to write and publish.

Unfortunately Amazon is taking over everything. Retail. Publishing. Even groceries. People prefer to go on-line. Bookstores will soon be a thing of the past. Hardcover and even paperbacks are going to be interesting artifacts like buggy whips and  whale oil lamps.  People will be reading on their Ipads and phones. Not lugging around a ton of books. 

Carole and other pretentious snots with an inside advantage will not be able to jump the line. They will have to compete with everyone else. Democratically. That's what makes America great.

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

That's what the publishing houses protect the public from.

Nah. The publishing houses gave us The Widow's Guide. 

[Celia Rubenstein]

14 hours ago, Jel said:

I gotta say I just don't see "who is prettier" as a main concern in Bethenny's life.  Or any adult woman's life. (Not the women I know anyway.)

Yeah, I don't think Bethenny has ever had a problem getting attention from men, so the idea that she hates Luann because she is jealous of her beauty is completely baseless.  There is just no reason.

I also agree with you that this whole concern about who is prettier is a lot of nonsense. It's actually rather sad that in this day and age you still hear women accusing other women of "just being jealous" of someone who is prettier. Haven't we moved past seeing women as shallow, jealous vipers who will claw each other's eyes out as we fight for the attention of men?  Aren't we past believing that looks are all women care about and we are filled with blinding resentment and hostility for women who are more attractive?  

The whole "she's just jealous" thing is nothing but a tool to reduce a woman to a stereotypical petty harpy in order to shut her down, nothing more. 

Really, I've known many beautiful women who were wonderful and everyone loved them and I've known some good looking ladies who were complete bitches and everyone hated them.  How people felt about them had zero to do with their physical attractiveness.  It may make one feel better to believe they are disliked because they are beautiful or whatever, but the truth is a person is usually disliked because of their behavior.  Not for how they look. 

Bethenny Frankel has YEARS of interaction with Luann to give her cause for not liking her, some reasons more valid than others.  But the idea that any of it is based on Luann's bone structure or shapely figure is really kind of silly imo.  

Edited April 20, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[Lemons]

1 hour ago, TheFinalRose said:

Nah. The publishing houses gave us The Widow's Guide. 

I still go to independent bookstores and their businesses are booming. No amazon for me. Carole wouldn't be the first writer to write a clunker after a successful book. 

[AndySmith]

Quote

It's actually rather sad that in this day and age you still hear women accusing other women of "just being jealous" of someone who is prettier. Haven't we moved past seeing women as shallow, jealous vipers who will claw each other's eyes out as we fight for the attention of men?  Aren't we past believing that looks are all women care about and we are filled with blinding resentment and hostility for women who are more attractive?  

Nah. Looks & jealousy about looks will always be a reason people use to explain why someone on this show that they hate dislikes someone on this show that they like.

[Yours Truly]

People's experiences are people's experiences.

Just because its superficial doesn't mean it happens any less.

Sure we would LOVE to live in a world where attractiveness shouldn't matter but we do.

I'm a women and as plain as day I see it all the time.  Not gonna pish posh it away cause it's distasteful and embarrassing to admit that women are petty this way. We just are. Not every women takes it to distasteful places. Most of the time people behave as grown ups and realize how silly it is to allow those twinges to run amok and by adulthood have outgrown these urges and realize there truly is no need but some people don't and sometimes it shows up. It is what it is. But to pretend it's not something that some women struggle with on occasion and for some more often than not doesn't banish it's existence. 

Nothing wrong with admitting that sometimes nothing more than superficial jealousy plays a role.

I hate it when that explanation is used at the drop of a hate too but sometimes it does fit.

Beth has a combination hater in her. She hates for various reasons and I wholeheartedly believe that the prettier the women the bigger that chip on her shoulder gets and here's why:

The more socially accepted or socially received someone is the more she scrutinizes and looks for ways to knock them down. She's shown this. The reason I mention attractiveness is because in those circles being attractive bring automatic benefits. Benefits that Beth's ugly mug couldn't really lock down in her earlier years. Her piss poor attitude and gruff personality pretty much sealed the deal on that and I'm guessing she knows that had she not been so rough around the edges in the looks department it wouldn't have taken her this long to score it big. She didn't have the personality to grease the wheels or the looks to fall back on and the only way she was able to get it done was by appearing on reality TV. Hell yeah I think she resents attractive women on sight.

It will be interesting to see how she handles Tinsley and what her gripes will be and her reasoning for trying to tear her down. She's already making comments about how she can't believe she was ever a socialite (or was that Carole?).  I'm curious what the insults will sound like and if attacking the legitimacy of her socialite status will be a part of what gets hurls at her during one of their combustible dinners?  Can't wait. LOL

Edited April 20, 2017 by Yours Truly

[Ki-in]

Carole said something along the lines that she didn't know that socialites still existed. Which is a moronic statement considering she's a 1%er

[Atlanta]

16 hours ago, Lemons said:

I hope that's not true. I don't want to slog through a ton of amateur "writers", especially some long winded non-proofread book full of errors. That's what the publishing houses protect the public from. And let's hope that Amazon never becomes a monopoly for books. 

I think it depends on the writer. A friend of self publishes, but she uses editors and proofreaders. She's pretty thorough, but she cares about her work. I once proofed a self published book. It wound up doing not too bad.

The style and tone of "What Remains" and "Widow's Guide" are so disparate. Yes, they are different genres, but holy cow. It's night and day.

Who is Carole's sister?

Edited April 20, 2017 by Atlanta

[mostlylurking]

On 4/17/2017 at 6:41 PM, Celia Rubenstein said:

Whether justified by her stunning level of knowledge or not, she came across as incredibly pompous and snide.

I actually agree with Carole on the whole Trump deal, but she just comes across as a pompous asshole who thinks she's better than everyone.  I really don't care if she worked at ABC news in another lifetime.  Today she is on a reality show desperately clinging to the idea that she is some sort of intellectual by invoking her journalism past and her awesome writing skills.  It's a little pathetic.  She's not even interesting enough to be a bitch.  

[Mojoker]

On 4/20/2017 at 8:37 AM, Ki-in said:

Carole said something along the lines that she didn't know that socialites still existed. Which is a moronic statement considering she's a 1%er

Being "1%er" and being a socialite aren't necessarily the same thing.  There are lots and lots and lots of very wealthy people who aren't socialites. 

On 4/19/2017 at 7:30 PM, TheFinalRose said:

Nah. The publishing houses gave us The Widow's Guide. 

Did you read it?

On 4/19/2017 at 6:16 PM, Petunia13 said:

I think a lot of writers love the craft and have a passion for the arts in myriad forms. Carole hasn't really shown that. In fact, she can come across as pretty basic and bland.

I do not consider her having published 2 books a huge achievement. If her books were the caliber of Donna Tartt or something...maybe. Even then that author has published more and shows a love of literature through her social circle and hobbies. I think many creators can be open minded and dynamic and Carole IMHO is not. 

If you don't consider having two books traditionally published, then you should give it a try. It's not quite the cakewalk you seem to think it is. And being a bestseller is even harder. I don't know Carole's social circle, nor do I know her hobbies. But I do know that Harper Lee only published one book in her life. I don't think that makes her an unaccomplished writer. 

[sasha206]

On 4/19/2017 at 10:04 PM, Celia Rubenstein said:

Yeah, I don't think Bethenny has ever had a problem getting attention from men, so the idea that she hates Luann because she is jealous of her beauty is completely baseless.  There is just no reason.

Bethenny may not have had any problem getting attention from men, but she does have a constant need for attention on social media. Endless bikini pics.  I'd say, well, gee her brand is Skinny Girl so maybe it's a need to show people her products keep you skinny.  But then there was the posing in her daughter's PJs.  

Let's not forget too that Beth loves to talk about how the other girls look, so we may want to be evolved as women but I'm not sure she is.

[WireWrap]

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

Bethenny may not have had any problem getting attention from men, but she does have a constant need for attention on social media. Endless bikini pics.  I'd say, well, gee her brand is Skinny Girl so maybe it's a need to show people her products keep you skinny.  But then there was the posing in her daughter's PJs.  

Let's not forget too that Beth loves to talk about how the other girls look, so we may want to be evolved as women but I'm not sure she is.

Bethenny has this overwhelming need to be the focus of everyone's attention and heaven forbid that the others get any unless she says it's ok first.

[Pentwater]

Quote

Bethenny was a bitch meeting Tinsley.  If you're too hot shit or above it all to meet the woman don't go to her "welcoming" party then do exactly the opposite.

Bethenny, who comes from nothing, is jealous of who Tinsley is/was. I doubt if Bethenny knows how to act around those who have had highly privileged life-styles.

[ryebread]

21 hours ago, Pentwater said:

Bethenny, who comes from nothing, is jealous of who Tinsley is/was. I doubt if Bethenny knows how to act around those who have had highly privileged

life-styles.

O/T  @Pentwater  Any relation to Pentwater, Michigan? 

I agree.  That's one thing Bethenny wouldn't be able to fake.

[Mrs peel]

On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 7:04 PM, Mojoker said:

Being "1%er" and being a socialite aren't necessarily the same thing.  There are lots and lots and lots of very wealthy people who aren't socialites. 

Did you read it?

If you don't consider having two books traditionally published, then you should give it a try. It's not quite the cakewalk you seem to think it is. And being a bestseller is even harder. I don't know Carole's social circle, nor do I know her hobbies. But I do know that Harper Lee only published one book in her life. I don't think that makes her an unaccomplished writer. 

FYI - Harper Lee decided not to publish any other books, it wasn't that she couldn't have gotten the contracts.

[Mojoker]

18 minutes ago, Mrs peel said:

FYI - Harper Lee decided not to publish any other books, it wasn't that she couldn't have gotten the contracts.

Since she never tried, we'll never actually know if that's true or not.

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 4/17/2017 at 2:37 PM, Celia Rubenstein said:

But Luann didn't just say "be discreet."  She said women should behave a certain way when she herself doesn't behave that way.  

That's not just disagreeing with with someone's approach or demonstrating a more traditional alternative.  It's the very definition of being a hypocrite.  And the reason that label has stuck with her is because of the magnitude of her hypocrisy. 

This is a woman who has been written up in the paper for getting drunk at a wedding and insisting on singing and groping men who were present and fighting with her husband and falling in a parking lot, etc.  Her catting around is notorious. Nobody is saying she has to be a saint ... she should go for it if that's what she wants.  She doesn't owe anyone an apology or an explanation.   Just don't preach to people they should be something you yourself are famous for NOT being.  It's that simple. 

I agree. Slut-shaming is even worse when it's done by someone whose behavior could be deemed slutty.

[Aethera]

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