Season 1 Talk

[ShellSeeker]

12 hours ago, Megan said:

I'm 20 yrs out of high school and did not have a hard time soo i don't know, but I did not think this glamourised suicide at all. It seemed horrible and painful and that Hannah really wanted to take it back immediately. 

I didn't think it glamourized suicide either, but I can see how people could take it that way. The tapes were the most extreme version of those thoughts that most of us have when we're young: "They'd all be sorry if I was dead, and they'd wish they'd been nicer to me. That would show them." 

I think they could have addressed that by showing the suicide scene in the first episode. Like you said, it was horrible and painful, and she seemed to regret it right away. I could barely watch it. Showing that at the beginning, and then launching into the tapes, would have stripped that away. It's not as if it would have been a spoiler -- the premise of the show was stated at the outset.

[hoosiermom]

I'm not sure Bryce ever had a tape until Clay made it 13 side B. Bryce never heard or new anything about the tapes until Justin told him after the depositions had already started. I'm probably confused but I just can't see Bryce passing those tapes on to anybody.

[DittyDotDot]

14 hours ago, hoosiermom said:

I'm not sure Bryce ever had a tape until Clay made it 13 side B. Bryce never heard or new anything about the tapes until Justin told him after the depositions had already started. I'm probably confused but I just can't see Bryce passing those tapes on to anybody.

Bryce did indeed have a tape.

1. Justin
2. Jessica
3. Alex
4. Tyler
5. Courtney
6. Marcus
7. Zach
8. Ryan
9. Sheri
10. Justin Part II (Or as I like to call it, Hannah's tape)
11. Clay
12. Bryce (It's the tape where Bryce rapes Hannah)
13. Mr. Porter

Clay was supposed to pass the tapes on to Bryce, but chose to skip him--because, as you said, he probably wouldn't have passed them on--and give them to Mr. Porter with the additional tape #14.

Edited May 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I didn't think it glamourized suicide either, but I can see how people could take it that way. The tapes were the most extreme version of those thoughts that most of us have when we're young: "They'd all be sorry if I was dead, and they'd wish they'd been nicer to me. That would show them." 

This is what perplexes me about the objections re: this show "glamorizing" suicide.  It seems to me that every expert who speaks about teenage suicide (or, for that matter, adults who commit suicide), talks about the person who commits the act feeling like there is no way out and no alternative, and that everyone would be better off without them, not that the overwhelming majority is seeking revenge against people who have wronged them.  If anything, in terms of showing how the people left behind felt, it showed that the people that Hannah herself *didn't* consider total assholes (Clay, Tony, her parents) were sent into a tailspin following her death.  I mean, hell, even the people that she hated, by and large, were negatively impacted by her death.

I mean, not for nothing, are we suggesting that art can never discuss suicide without glamorizing suicide? How on earth can we talk about difficult subjects if not through art?

[Nozycat]

Wasn't Justin the one who actually suggested killing Clay and making it look like suicide?  I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.

I am finding this show very though provoking and really appreciate reading all the thoughts and opinions on it here.  Just about to watch the last one.

[Vella]

I was really not anticipating this series to be a slog to get through.  Every other character, right down to the bit players, pops out.  The biggest issue is Clay himself.  He is easily the most irritating aspect for me.  All this gormless faced STARING he does. Whining questions to people when everyone is waiting for him to just finish the damn tapes.  Anxiety is what prevents him from listening to all the tapes?  I don't buy it.  I think he's in some sort of denial and stubbornly refusing to get to his part.  His name is aptly chosen.  I don't think he's stupid, he's just so friggin' SLOW.  The pace badly needs to pick up with him.

As for the subject matter? I don't know, it feels a bit bland.  I feel like other shows, Veronica Mars in particular, have covered this type of material better. I'll stick with it, but it has got to get moving.

[Vella]

I knew I hated Clay's weasel ass for a reason. Making his own justice?  It ain't about you Clay.  Clay turned into Tyler.  Actually, he took it further than Tyler or anyone else who listened to the Tyler tape. For Clay to take a picture of Tyler NAKED was bad(and Tyler just leaves his blinds open like that, after already dealing with rocks? Come on show.), to send it to a bunch of other kids was horrendous, exactly the opposite of what Hannah wanted.  Why do I get the strong suspicion that Clay will be the biggest and most awful reason of all?  Clay was fully prepared to turn the tapes over to Justin and Alex and those assholes who helped make Hannah's life a misery. I wanted so badly for Tony to fling his plate at Clay's face when he realized what Clay was about to do.  Turning over the tapes to Justin and his ilk coupled with his own nasty behavior gives me a bad feeling about how this will all end.

And I don't buy that nobody knew who it was in the picture, come on, it was clearly Hannah and Courtney.

The whole plan of busting the stalker that devolved into getting drunk and making out felt ridiculous.  Was the plan always to leave the shades open, window ajar, two girls giggling and talking at a sleepover as a way to bait the stalker? Did the drinking just get out of hand and make the girls forget what the original plan was or did they never even get that far in the 'plan' to begin with? It was confusing.

Couple of things I found interesting. The school's lack of involvement in just about anything from the graffiti on the bathroom walls to allowing male students to wear a costume of 'muff diving' and the principal openly stating the school didn't have a bullying problem speaks to how uninvolved and hands off the faculty was when it came to students behavior and treatment of each other.

The parents grief? The mother's frantic need to know her daughter?  That was hard to watch.

[Starving Writer]

13 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Bryce did indeed have a tape.

1. Justin
2. Jessica
3. Alex
4. Tyler
5. Courtney
6. Marcus
7. Zach
8. Ryan
9. Sheri
10. Clay
11. Justin Part II (Or as I like to call it, Hannah's tape)
12. Bryce (It's the tape where Bryce rapes Hannah)
13. Mr. Porter

Clay was supposed to pass the tapes on to Bryce, but chose to skip him--because, as you said, he probably wouldn't have passed them on--and give them to Mr. Porter with the additional tape #14.

I thought the order went:

 

9. Justin Part II / Hannah (the tape that describes Jessica's rape at the party)

10. Sheri (the fatal car crash)

11. Clay

12. Bryce

13. Mr. Porter

 

Either way, Clay was supposed to pass it on to Bryce.  Clay chose to skip Bryce (who would've never passed it on, not even under the threat of the back-up tapes being released everywhere -- Bryce is far more likely to destroy the tapes himself, then head over to Tony and destroy the back-up as well) and hand the tapes directly to Mr. Porter). 

As for the notion of Hannah's suicide and tapes as a giant revenge plot ... If that was Hannah's intentions, she failed miserably (and I hope the critics catch this aspect of the plot).  Look at who were affected deeply by the suicide and the tapes:  Clay, Sheri, Alex, and arguably Justin / Jessica (although in the latter, the impact is mostly as a result of the covered up rape being revealed than as a result of Hannah's death itself).  Those are the people whom Hannah cared about and would not want to hurt.  

 

On the other hand, those whom Hannah would probably truly want revenge on -- the ones who really hurt Hannah, such as Bryce, Courtney, Marcus -- they truly did not give a crap that Hannah killed herself, and were actively trying to prevent her final message from going out.  They were either completely oblivious to the damage they had done (Bryce) or were actively trying to sabotage Clay's attempts at getting the truth out and claiming that Hannah was lying about everything (Marcus, Courtney).  So if Hannah's goal was to get revenge on those who wronged her and make them feel bad for being a reason why she killed herself ... she failed.  

 

This isn't a "revenge story."  This is a story that shows how wrong bullying is. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Starving Writer

[DittyDotDot]

Yes, Clay was supposed to be tape 11, not sure how I got them out of order. Thanks @Starving Writer.

[sadie]

I have waited to post here as I wanted to digest all of this.

My husband committed suicide at 40 years old (two years ago) so I bring my own bias into watching this show. I felt it did glamorize the act of suicide to some degree. IMO Hannah was trying to exact some form of "see what you made me do" onto her classmates. I think the intercut past and present made the impact of her really being dead less because you felt she was still "there" to some extent. The graveyard scene to me was the most powerful and perhaps they should have emphasized that again at the end. She was really dead, in the ground, not coming back. That's the true impact of her choice. 

The scene of her actually cutting her wrists was painful to watch and I felt done as well as something of that nature could be done. I too found my ex so the scene where her mother finds her, and has that moment of "what am I really seeing here" then turning to horror was spot on. Spot on. 

I am torn on whether this is something I would let my teen watch. I would only allow it if I watched with them and had conversations about each ep because suicide, at the end of the day, is only the choice of the person commiting it. As shitty as what these people did to her and was heinous in some cases (the rape specifically ), we are all accountable for our own will to live. She was obviously in a deep depression which clouded her judgment. I wish they had been more clear about that part of what happened to her.

Kudos on them making this, suicide is stilll a very taboo subject and any conversation we can have about it helps people not be afraid to discuss it (I've had friends no longer speak to me because they just couldn't handle the tragedy of it all). It's an important topic. 

[Paloma]

14 hours ago, Nozycat said:

Wasn't Justin the one who actually suggested killing Clay and making it look like suicide?

Yes, he did suggest killing him (though I don't think he used those words--I think it was something like "end him"). He was clearly feeling desperate, and I don't know whether he would have actually done it. But the fact that he considered such extreme action is bad enough.

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

Kudos on them making this, suicide is stilll a very taboo subject and any conversation we can have about it helps people not be afraid to discuss it (I've had friends no longer speak to me because they just couldn't handle the tragedy of it all). It's an important topic. 

I'm so sorry for what you experienced, but thank you for your insights and contribution to this necessary dialogue. I feel like the discussion of the show (here and elsewhere) is as important as the show itself.

[MV007]

On 4/30/2017 at 11:26 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

Oops, I quoted the wrong post of yours.  I meant to reply to the one asking if my 16 year old found any TV teens realistic.  You mentioned Freaks & Geeks, which she also liked.  Also, she liked Stranger Things.  Oddly, both set in the 80s.  I think the 80s teens in Red Oaks also would pass her scrutiny, to be honest.  Maybe TV writers who were 80s teens give themselves more credit for maturity than today's teens?  I know the typical 201x teen girl on TV, to me, is something like Maddie on Nashville-- supremely annoying, shallow, spoiled and self-involved.  I hate that.  One TV teen that started out that way then turned very realistic to me recently was Abigail on Big Little Lies.  My daughter found her realistic, too.

I don't know you so please don't take this the wrong way.  Is it possible a kid would tell their parent that the teens in this show aren't realistic because they don't want their parents to see how truly terrible some kids can be?

[Guest]

I think that if she found them realistic she would've liked the show and would've said she found them realistic.  She disliked the show and characterization of teens so much she quit after about the fourth episode.  I don't feel like she had any point to make or anything to hide.  She regularly reminds me how much better of a kid she is than most teens so if she thought these were realistic teens, that would've been more evidence to convince me.  ; )

[Nozycat]

Yes I thought it went to Justin's character that he would even suggest it.

[ShellSeeker]

11 hours ago, sadie said:

I felt it did glamorize the act of suicide to some degree. IMO Hannah was trying to exact some form of "see what you made me do" onto her classmates. I think the intercut past and present made the impact of her really being dead less because you felt she was still "there" to some extent. The graveyard scene to me was the most powerful and perhaps they should have emphasized that again at the end. She was really dead, in the ground, not coming back. That's the true impact of her choice. 

@sadie, thank you for sharing your insights. I am so sorry for your loss and what you've been through.

I posted earlier that even though I personally did not feel that this show glamorized suicide, I could see how some people would think that it did. I couldn't put my finger on why I thought that, but your comment above articulates it perfectly. Interspersing the past and present did minimize to some degree the fact that Hannah was truly gone and not coming back.

For what it's worth, the people who stopped speaking to you may not have done so because they couldn't handle the tragedy, but perhaps because they were so worried about saying the wrong thing, they just didn't say anything at all. Of course, you know the situation better than I do, so that may be completely off base. I don't mean to presume. But like you said, it's such a taboo subject and people are afraid to talk about it.

I think one thing the show did really well was to illustrate that Hannah was also a flawed person, as we all are, and she knew something was very wrong and that she needed help. It was so painful to watch the scene with Mr. Porter, because she was trying to reach out. And I think he did want to help, and really did try, but he was just...ill-equipped.

[NUguy514]

When Clay said to Courtney at the graveyard, "It's the 21st century.  It's not a big deal" (I'm paraphrasing), I wanted to reach through my television and punch him.  It's nice that you don't think it's a big deal, dude, but you are straight.  You cannot possibly get it, so don't ever say that again.  (Yes, I'm fighting with a fictional character who is much younger than I.)  Look at what's happening in Chechnya, for starters.  It is still a very big deal, Clay, hon, so don't ever be so dismissive about it again.

Having said that, fuck Courtney.  Hannah seemed to understand that "it" is still a big deal and treated Courtney with kindness and compassion.  So, of course, Courtney continues the cycle of bullying and slut-shaming.  Fuck her.

[starri]

Had the show established before that Tony is gay?  Because that actually really surprised me.  I'm actually impressed that they have so many queer characters, I just wish most of them weren't terrible.

[NUguy514]

Ryan can go fuck himself.  If I start going into all the reasons why, this post will turn into a novel.

One thing that really bothered me about the college fair: the Hudson University lady asked if Hannah had taken the PSAT or ACT yet and was horrified that she hadn't.  I'm a test prep tutor, so that was some fresh bullshit.  As a sophomore, Hannah would likely not have taken either test, certainly not the ACT, which students don't take until at least their junior years.  Some schools will have sophomores take the PSAT, but it's a vast minority; students don't take that test until the fall of their junior years, and it sure as shit doesn't count toward college admissions.

[rho]

2 hours ago, starri said:

Had the show established before that Tony is gay?  Because that actually really surprised me.  I'm actually impressed that they have so many queer characters, I just wish most of them weren't terrible.

I might have imagined this, and it's just too fresh for me to rewatch the episode to confirm. But I believe at the dance in episode 5, it was implied. I definitely picked up on some sexual tension between him and Ryan in the DJ booth. It was subtle though, I kept second-guessing myself until he finally told Clay.

[auntiemel]

35 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

One thing that really bothered me about the college fair: the Hudson University lady asked if Hannah had taken the PSAT or ACT yet and was horrified that she hadn't.  I'm a test prep tutor, so that was some fresh bullshit.  As a sophomore, Hannah would likely not have taken either test, certainly not the ACT, which students don't take until at least their junior years.  Some schools will have sophomores take the PSAT, but it's a vast minority; students don't take that test until the fall of their junior years, and it sure as shit doesn't count toward college admissions.

If Hannah had survived to college, she'd probably be better off steering as clear as possible from Hudson University, Crime Capital of the Goddamn World!

[starri]

I'm usually better at picking up on stuff, so maybe it was just too subtle.  Frankly, even with Brad staring hearts at him, I wasn't convinced I was reading the situation correctly.  I actually had to go online to confirm my suspicions.  I don't know, the actor who plays Tony seemed a little uncomfortable with it.  And the fact that they didn't kiss or even really touch seemed off.

Maybe it's just that I'm (as Friends said) a person who can drink out of high school, but I'm having a really hard time finding a character to root for.  Not even Clay, who continues to act like a blooming idiot.  Not even Hannah, and the lack of empathy is actually starting to bother me.

It's interesting, this Golden Age of Television.  Many, many years ago, Bruce Paltrow (GOOP's late father) produced a pilot for CBS for a show that was to be called High, which opened with a teen's suicide and was narrated, Lovely Bones/Desperate Housewives style by him.  It was, by all accounts, great, but because Fox was going to debut its own series that fall about glamorous living in Beverly Hills, CBS passed.  And here we are, almost 30 years later, same premise.

[starri]

I'm wondering if I'm crazy for thinking that Tony's answer to "Because of the tapes, right?" when Clay asked why they'd been spending so much time together might betray some less-than-platonic motives on his part.

I wonder if the fizzled relationship between Tony and Ryan was a play on the standard TV idea that each school has exactly enough gay students for them to date each other and no one else.

[NUguy514]

Yeah, there is a zero percent chance Jeff's blood wouldn't have been tested.  Of course, the one kind guy is the one killed.  I still like Sheri, though.

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, starri said:

I wonder if the fizzled relationship between Tony and Ryan was a play on the standard TV idea that each school has exactly enough gay students for them to date each other and no one else.

Yes, I had a hard time believing they had been a couple. I know that opposites can attract, but Ryan seemed so far from the type of person that would attract Tony. (Though I can see Ryan being attracted to Tony.) 

[starri]

Brad does seem to have the same kind of moony-eyed thing that Ryan has going on, even though he seems a bit more grounded.  I don't know if it's completely crazy.

But they're supposed to live in the Bay Area, right?  It's not like they're in the sticks where each is the other's only dating option.

[reggiejax]

I began watching on Sunday, and I just finished episode 13 last night. There is so much I could say about a whole lot of things, but truth be told I think I would just be repeating things that have been said by others, and have been said far better than I ever could.

But the one thing I will share is that I have never been more heartbroken by anything I have seen on screen than the scene of Hannah committing suicide. Watching it, I felt so helpless, wishing I could reach into the screen and stop her, give her a hug, and tell her things will get better.

Intellectually I knew this was fiction, but emotionally, I was a wreck.

Edited May 4, 2017 by reggiejax

[starri]

I'd say the only person worse than Marcus is Bryce, personally.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for Courtney.  Not a lot, mind, but she also never tried to grope Hannah.

This was also the first time that it registered to me that Keiko Agena is playing Ms. Bradly.  I'd always thought her voice sounded familiar, but it wasn't until they had the closeup on her face that I realized it was Lane.  This is the first time I've ever seen her actually look her real age.

Edited May 5, 2017 by starri

[ghoulina]

On 4/26/2017 at 8:57 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

Quippy as in clever/witty, but like a bad sitcom.  So especially considering the subject matter, her quips are out of place to me and my household.  

They are for me as well. 

I just finished episode 3 and I'm going to keep watching, but Hannah, herself, just isn't really resonating with me. I don't watch a ton of YA fare, so maybe that's part of it. And I know everyone handles things differently. But for someone who's supposedly suicidal, she often seems too peppy and enjoying putting these tapes together too much. 

[starri]

On 4/21/2017 at 6:20 AM, PBGamer89 said:

even though Clay was obviously in love with Hannah, he never admitted what he sexuality could be (bisexual vs. heterosexual), because I always felt a huge underlying chemistry between him and Tony, to the point where I think Tony actually does have feelings for him,

I actually had the same thought.  There was a lot of chemistry between the two characters, and I think it was actually pretty ambiguous.  What I can't quite figure out if it was intentional or not.  Close male/male friendships on TV and in movies almost always have someone reading it as homoerotic (see: Sherlock, the first few seasons of Smallville, The Force Awakens), and sometimes the show leans into it a little and sometimes they don't.  It may be that the actor playing Tony decided to lean into it on his own.  But yes, I think Tony definitely has feelings for Clay.

The stuff with Brad actually bothered me a lot.  There was a real lack of intimacy between the two, and they didn't kiss when they should have.  That may have been intentional as well, but from Tony's "I hope he's still my boyfriend," I don't think so.  I couldn't shake the feeling that the actor playing Tony was uncomfortable playing gay, because the actor playing Brad was trying his damnedest with those dreamy, heavy-lidded stares.

I also have a question mark around Hannah's sexuality.  She clearly loved Clay (at least, in the high school sense), but she also seemed to be into making out with Courtney.  She at least didn't hate it.

On 4/22/2017 at 4:20 PM, rho said:

I don't think all these kids were a tight-knit group until they listened to the tapes. Blackmail brought them together

I'm not sure they were all that tight-knit even after the tapes.  They seemed to be mostly paired off--Jessica/Justin, Courtney/Marcus, Justin/Bryce (even if he didn't know yet)--but Tyler, Ryan, Sheri, and to a lesser extent Zach and Alex seemed to be off on their own.

Hoo-boy:  I had a hard time liking Hannah at points.  Nothing but sympathy for the slut-shaming, the stalking, and especially the rape.  But even beyond her inability or unwillingness to talk to Jessica about the rape (or anyone, really), I thought a lot of what was on the tapes was needlessly cruel.  I know the overall idea was that it's a million little cuts, but she had no business making a tape about Clay, and frankly, I don't think she was fair to Sheri either.  Sheri's crime was against Jeff, not Hannah, and she clearly felt as bad, if not worse, about it.

I also want to throw some love to the actors playing the parents.  I don't know why Clay came home bloody so many times without a "Hey, what's up with that?" but I thought Josh Hamilton and Amy Hargreaves did a great job of mixing cluelessness, worry, and anger.  And that despite the stuff that would have been read as acting out if the audience didn't know the whole story, they seemed to understand that it is (or would have been) kind of a natural thing after the kid had two traumas in his life.

I am charitably not a fan of either Kate Walsh or Brian d'Arcy James, but I have to give a lot of props to the former.  It was a pretty bold choice for her to be on camera with minimal makeup and without getting her botox topped off before the show filmed.  There aren't a lot of actresses of a certain age that would eschew glamour for verisimilitude.

[polyhymnia]

On 4/22/2017 at 6:19 PM, DangerousMinds said:

Speaking as someone who has worked as a high school counselor, he absolutely failed. The moment she mentioned being tired of life, he should have asked her outright if she had been thinking of harming herself (and/or others) and immediately contacted her parents. She was clinically depressed and needed immediate parental and medical intervention.

Also, he is a mandatory reporter on the sexual assault and I think many teachers and counselors would err on the side of caution and report it.  Consent is a defense to sexual assault but unless it is somehow established that Hannah was older than the age of consent (whatever it might be in California[?]) I would think a phone call to law enforcement would have happened.

[Vella]

I don't blame Hannah. This is a girl who suffered and endured for well over a year and was pretty much alone the entire time.  I think of the number of times she was humiliated and shamed and betrayed and how public all of it was with people she had to see day in, day out, many of whom she'd been kind to or allowed herself to be vulnerable with.  She was in a poor frame of mind, suffering from depression, PTSD and anxiety.  I can't really expect her to think rationally.  That's what bullying does, it breaks you down and puts you in a terribly vulnerable place.

In regards to the tapes, all of them were made when she decided to kill herself. After her own rape. After the bullying and the slut shaming and belief that she was poison to others. She didn't plan them all along,  and up until the rape, she kept trying to reach out, in her own way. Trying to help her parents, apologize to Clay, share a friendly moment with Jessica. She was still 100% in crisis and once the rape happened, that was it, she was on a different plane. If she was intending to be vicious or vengeful, she could have done it in so many other ways.  She could have publicly humiliated Tyler in front of everyone, but she didn't. Clay did that. She could have done it to Courtney. She could have reported Sheri, but she didn't. She could have told the poetry group what Ryan did. They might have kicked him out for that kind of violation, but she didn't. She could have been cruel, but she wasn't. From what I remember, she didn't scream or cry or curse anyone on the tapes. She just told them the role they played. She tried to reassure Clay and ease his mind on her reaction the night of the party. 

All she wanted to do was tell them her truth in hopes they would understand the part each played. What was interesting was that most of them did NOT understand.  Even after hearing that Bryce raped both Jessica and Hannah, there seemed to be little reaction or empathy, only a selfish fear of being exposed for their own actions.  Only when they actually began to talk about the tapes, together, to think about the tapes, did reflection and awareness start to sink in. I thought that was a great choice by the writers.

One thing I really liked, was how earlier in the series, Hannah's Mom said Hannah didn't leave a note, nothing to explain.  Yet she persevered in going through Hannah's things to find something and in a random shoebox she finds the paper with all the names on it and their connections and the little drawings and she KNOWS this was what she was looking for.  I loved that THIS was the note Hannah left (unintentionally I'm assuming) for her parents and it WAS the key to unlocking so much, including Hannah's tapes.  So Hannah's Mom got the note she so desperately wanted.

[Cara]

Maybe it's that I'm just in a different mood today. But when I started watching this yesterday I was sad and felt sorry for Hannah. Watching this episode and the beginning of the next one I just don't know.... I don't think I'm going to make it through the whole thing. Maybe I'm just not getting it. But this seems like it's just normal HS stuff that we all go through. Her voiceovers are annoying.(I want to make sure you feel guilty for the rest of your life) Am I missing subtle signs of mental illnesses that they are trying to show us we should watch out for? 

[SparklesBitch]

I finished watching this series a few days ago and am still digesting everything, but I have to say that I was really impressed with all the actors in this show. 

I liked that none of the kids in the show, with the exception of Bryce, were either 100% irredeemably evil or 100% goodness and light. Most of the kids were good at heart and just made really, really bad choices and did shitty things to each other to cover their own ass at the time. 

My heart broke for Hannah over and over again, and when I knew exactly what would happen as soon as she stripped down and got into the hot tub, I had to pause the show, take a few deep breaths and walk around my apartment for a few minutes before I could watch it. The moment where she stops fighting and just goes limp....it shattered my heart. 

I didn't think the suicide was at all glamorized. They were very clear that she died alone and scared, and the actual act was painful and sad and lonely and brutal. I'm glad they showed it. Also, her mom finding her socked me in the gut. I've been a Kate Walsh fan since Addison Montgomery Shepherd and her "you must be the woman who's been screwing my husband"....and I thought she was just as brilliant as Hannah's mom. 

Since everyone is sharing their own high school experiences, I'll chime in and share that I was grabbed walking home from school in the same way that Bryce grabbed Hannah in the convenience/liquor store. I didn't tell anyone until over 10 years later because I was ashamed and embarrassed and still thought it was my fault somehow. I still don't know who actually did it because a pack of jock guys walked up behind me, one leaned in close and said something gross and then grabbed my butt and snickered. His friends all laughed and I was too afraid to look at his face. I ran home and cried. I still remember his voice. After waiting 10 years and finally telling my girlfriend at the time, I waited again and finally told my parents during a fight about the last presidential election in the US. 

One other point is that I'm a 33 year old lesbian who didn't come out until after college, and so I felt for Courtney being afraid of being outed. However, that did not in any way give her the right to spread lies about Hannah to deflect attention away from herself. I was so disgusted by what she did that I had zero sympathy for her by the end of the show. 

For me, Bryce was the worst, followed closely by Courtney and Tyler, then Marcus. Marcus, even though what he did to Hannah was vile, at least showed some remorse for his actions. Tyler was the only character other than Bryce that I didn't ever feel any sympathy for. He and what he did was flat out disgusting to me. 

I saw Alex's suicide attempt coming when his dad complimented him on the cleanliness of his room. It's so awful (but unfortunately realistic) that nobody realized he was spiraling too. He and Jessica and Justin broke my heart as well. I was so glad that Jessica finally told her dad. I can see him making sure something is done about what happened to her. 

And poor, sweet Clay. Although he had his asshole moments as well, just like everyone else, I really sympathized with him through the whole thing. His parents were great as well. I think they were trying so hard and he just wouldn't open up. I totally understood why he couldn't just marathon through the tapes. 

And everyone should be lucky enough to have a friend like Tony! 

Lastly, I'm satisfied with where the show ended without neatly wrapping up every little thing, but it would almost be worth a second season just to see Bryce go down hard for everything he did. I think it's more realistic that he'd get away with everything, unfortunately, but it sure would be satisfying to watch him suffer consequences for a change. 

Oh! And one thing I found annoying. My dad is a retired cop. His guns were always locked up completely separately from the ammunition, and I STILL have no idea where the keys are to either cabinet. I don't think my brothers do either. How is it that a military man like Jessica's dad keeps his guns loaded and that his kid knows how to get into them? How did Alex get his hands on (presumably) his dad's gun(s)? 

I knew many cop and/or hunting families growing up and nobody ever knew how to get into their parents' guns. Maybe military families are different, but that struck me as crazy irresponsible. 

In fact, as an adult, I go to the shooting range with my dad on a semi-regular basis and he still hasn't ever handed me the keys to his gun cabinet. 

Is responsible gun ownership really so far-fetched? If so, that's scary. 

[Paloma]

13 hours ago, Cara said:

But this seems like it's just normal HS stuff that we all go through. Her voiceovers are annoying.(I want to make sure you feel guilty for the rest of your life) Am I missing subtle signs of mental illnesses that they are trying to show us we should watch out for? 

No spoilers, but let's just say this is quite early in the tapes. My husband and I sort of felt the same for the first episode or two, but we were hooked by the 3rd or 4th episode.

[Xcptnl]

On 4/1/2017 at 6:27 PM, toogoodtobetrue said:

I wondered if the show was hinting that Tyler had actually shot Alex and made it seem like a suicide-- he seemed to have pictures of the "13" people in his darkroom and took down Alex's picture as if he had taken him off his hit list. 

Otherwise this final episode was really strong. I'm 37 and it really got to me. All these kids deserved better (except Bryce) despite whatever behavior/action they may have displayed or taken. They're teenagers. 

I think Hannah did try to tell Jessica while she was alive, but, again... teenagers... can't expect them to communicate in the most mature ways. The Jessica rape scene and afterward were difficult to watch and I don't know what I would have done at age 16-17 if I had been in Hannah's shoes. 

I can't even begin to imagine how much more hurt Hannah's poor parents are going to feel after listening to the tapes. And it makes me so damn sad that teenagers (and adults, too, but especially teenagers) can't see any other way forward with their lives and so commit suicide. It's profoundly sad in a way that is indescribable with mere words and this show really drives that home.  

P.S. One concern I had throughout was that some despondent/hopeless teenager/kid will watch this series and decide to do something similar. I know the show is not a PSA, but it is in the Young Adult genre, technically, and I don't know if they showed that Hannah had other options that she just couldn't see-- yeah they showed that Clay really cared for her, but... it just wasn't enough. I'm not sure wha they could have done here to address that. 

To the bolded-I was thinking the same thing.  

[Giuseppe]

On 4/24/2017 at 3:06 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I can imagine it's difficult to look like you're still 12 when you're surrounded by big football and basketball players.

I was 5' 5" and somewhere around 105 lbs in high school, so I can speak from experience that yes, it is difficult, lol.

I was also getting Veronica Mars vibe from the first few episodes, moreso the overall tone than the subject matter.

[ghoulina]

Just finished this one and it's been the hardest one for me so far. I've really been struggling to relate to Hannah, and this episode did not help. I really felt for Zach. I think he genuinely had feelings for her, and risked a lot within in his social circle to profess this to her, and she just screamed at him and embarrassed him in front of everyone. 

I get that some REALLY shitty things had been done to her, and that explains why she is so mistrusting of people. But I almost think she's being a bit self-centered. It's almost as if she's the only one who's suffered in high school; while I am finding myself able to empathize more with others besides Hannah. Some of them are straight up dicks. But some of them are just confused, hurting kids who hurt other kids. It happens in life. We lash out when we are hurting. I'm sorry that for her it went so far that she felt she really couldn't go on. But it kind of bothers me that she's putting the blame on so many other people. 

I don't know, maybe I'm too hard-hearted or cynical, but this show just isn't doing for me what I thought it would. 

[preeya]

Just started watching this series. My first impression is that Katherine Langford (Hannah) reminds me of a younger Natalie Portman.

Edited May 9, 2017 by preeya

[kj4ever]

On 4/9/2017 at 9:03 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Ugh, this episode reminded me how terrible guys are. Justin had the nerve to call Hannah a crazy bitch even though she did nothing but kiss him at the playground. Boys are THE WORST. Alex put Jessica on the list because she wouldn't have sex with him. THE WORST. Bryce grabbed Hannah's ass in the liquor store. THE WORST.

 

Oh this show.  It makes me sad that we haven't evolved past this kind of crap that was happening back when my old ass was in high school in the late 80's.  In fact one of my friends pretty much lived this shit almost to a "T".  Went out with a popular guy she really liked, nothing happened but he said it did.  People wrote a bunch of stuff about her in a "slam" book (which was our version of social media I suppose) after that and Bam!  she was the biggest slut in school and had only been kissed once.

After several near rapes, as this was the boys will be boys time of our crappy history, she just withdrew and hid.  Thankfully her parents moved the next year and she got to start fresh.

On 4/26/2017 at 9:50 AM, MV007 said:

It was difficult to judge Clay's social standing.  But I don't get the sense that he was a nerd.  He wasn't like Tyler (an outcast).  Everyone seemed to like him, he just didn't socialize much outside of school.  I also think his personality is something that gets appreciated the older you get.  I'm sure Clay will have no problems in college.

He did say in the first episode that the "gay" rumors had just subsided so I think he had experienced some bullying himself.

[MV007]

14 minutes ago, kj4ever said:

Oh this show.  It makes me sad that we haven't evolved past this kind of crap that was happening back when my old ass was in high school in the late 80's.  In fact one of my friends pretty much lived this shit almost to a "T".  Went out with a popular guy she really liked, nothing happened but he said it did.  People wrote a bunch of stuff about her in a "slam" book (which was our version of social media I suppose) after that and Bam!  she was the biggest slut in school and had only been kissed once.

After several near rapes, as this was the boys will be boys time of our crappy history, she just withdrew and hid.  Thankfully her parents moved the next year and she got to start fresh.

He did say in the first episode that the "gay" rumors had just subsided so I think he had experienced some bullying himself.

That's true.  I forgot about that line from Clay.

I will also say that this show has made me think back to my high school days and some of the reputations of some girls in my class.  I can specifically remember one or two girls having just terribly slutty reputations and I just kind of believed it.  I never thought about it too much and it was just kind of accepted.  I can't come up with any excuses for believing it.  And I don't know that they weren't true but I wish I now had the perspective I do now.  And I could tell my younger self that these girls weren't what their reputations said they were.  I also couldn't say for certain that a show like this would necessarily open up my eyes at that time.  I think as an adult I am just much more self-reflective.

[RainbowBrite]

1 hour ago, MV007 said:

That's true.  I forgot about that line from Clay.

I will also say that this show has made me think back to my high school days and some of the reputations of some girls in my class.  I can specifically remember one or two girls having just terribly slutty reputations and I just kind of believed it.  I never thought about it too much and it was just kind of accepted.  I can't come up with any excuses for believing it.  And I don't know that they weren't true but I wish I now had the perspective I do now.  And I could tell my younger self that these girls weren't what their reputations said they were.  I also couldn't say for certain that a show like this would necessarily open up my eyes at that time.  I think as an adult I am just much more self-reflective.

I experienced this personally. After my boyfriend at the time forced himself on me at age 14 (and completely inexperienced), word got around school and all of a sudden I had a reputation. I can't imagine how it would have gone in the times of social media and I'm forever grateful that it was all pre-social media/internet as it exists now.

[kj4ever]

1 hour ago, RainbowBrite said:

I experienced this personally. After my boyfriend at the time forced himself on me at age 14 (and completely inexperienced), word got around school and all of a sudden I had a reputation. I can't imagine how it would have gone in the times of social media and I'm forever grateful that it was all pre-social media/internet as it exists now.

I am so sorry that happened to you :(

[Paloma]

18 hours ago, MV007 said:

I will also say that this show has made me think back to my high school days and some of the reputations of some girls in my class.  I can specifically remember one or two girls having just terribly slutty reputations and I just kind of believed it.  I never thought about it too much and it was just kind of accepted.  I can't come up with any excuses for believing it.  And I don't know that they weren't true but I wish I now had the perspective I do now.  And I could tell my younger self that these girls weren't what their reputations said they were.

Great observation! My high school days are really ancient (1960s) but your post reminded me that there were "good girls" and "sluts" even then (and probably going back to when high school was invented!). In those days the "sluts" were either girlfriends of the "hoods" (vaguely defined, but in general these girls and guys were not interested in school or sports) or girls who got pregnant. I didn't really know who was having sex and who wasn't (other than, obviously, the ones who got pregnant), but most people made assumptions and judgments. The irony is that at least some of the popular "good girls" (cheerleaders, majorettes, etc.) were probably having sex with their boyfriends, but no assumptions and judgments were made about them (to my knowledge). Not that having sex should have been a justification for anyone getting a bad reputation, but this was a pre-feminist time. 

16 hours ago, RainbowBrite said:

After my boyfriend at the time forced himself on me at age 14 (and completely inexperienced), word got around school and all of a sudden I had a reputation. I can't imagine how it would have gone in the times of social media and I'm forever grateful that it was all pre-social media/internet as it exists now.

I am also very sorry that this happened to you, and it makes me wonder if either of the pregnancies that were whispered about in my high school were the result of rape. That would have made the reputation destruction even worse.

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/8/2017 at 8:58 AM, ghoulina said:

Just finished this one and it's been the hardest one for me so far. I've really been struggling to relate to Hannah, and this episode did not help. I really felt for Zach. I think he genuinely had feelings for her, and risked a lot within in his social circle to profess this to her, and she just screamed at him and embarrassed him in front of everyone. 

The thing is though, in situations like these, you have to see it from both perspectives. Yes, to Zach, he put himself out there and risked" his social circle, only to be publicly embarrassed. But to Hannah, all she saw was that she thought Justin was a nice guy and he spread lies about her and a picture of her crotch, she thought Alex was a nice guy and he made up a list to humiliate and cause friction between her and Jessica because Jessica wouldn't sleep with him and then she thought Marcus was a nice guy and he sexually groped her in public and slut shamed her for all to hear.

And then suddenly here comes popular jock Zach who has always been right there in the group of jocks observing all this and she was supposed to just readily believe he was genuine? And Hannah didn't scream at Zach as soon as he started talking to her. She scoffed at his saying he liked her and very quietly told him to leave. He kept pushing, which resulted in her freakout. The moment showed a cluelessness on Zach's part. After all that he well knew Hannah had gone through, he should have accepted when she told him to leave and maybe try talking to her again at another time. But well he was a teenager and the same was true for Hannah, which again is why these situations aren't necessarily black and white. 

[ghoulina]

Yes, I do see it from her perspective as well. Which is why I said I understood why she wasn't trusting of him or his intentions. But I still found her reaction unnecessarily mean. MMV, but I didn't really see him as being pushy. I just feel like HANNAH wasn't really seeing other people's perspectives - how hard high school could be for many people, for many different reasons. That not everyone was out to get her. I guess that must have been a byproduct of depression, but I'm not sure the show is doing a good job showing that. Not for me, anyhow. 

[RainbowBrite]

I agree with ghoulina that if they are portraying Hannah as suffering from depression, they are not doing a great job. She starts out as a confident young woman and it is due to recurring mistreatment that she gets to the point of thinking suicide is the only option.

I didn't understand her motivation for yelling at him in such a way, but I don't really fault her for it either. This show does a great job of showing that nobody is perfect - everyone is flawed.

[ghoulina]

8 minutes ago, RainbowBrite said:

 

I agree with ghoulina that if they are portraying Hannah as suffering from depression, they are not doing a great job. She starts out as a confident young woman and it is due to recurring mistreatment that she gets to the point of thinking suicide is the only option.

 

I think part of my problem is the tapes themselves. I've been depressed before (although, never suicidal) and even ordinary tasks were hard to accomplish on a daily basis. Putting the tapes and maps and instructions together seems like a GREAT deal of effort. Also, her attitude when narrating the tapes often comes off as too snarky and full of life, for me. I am interested in the outcome of the show, but they're not really selling the story for me. 

[RainbowBrite]

1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

I think part of my problem is the tapes themselves. I've been depressed before (although, never suicidal) and even ordinary tasks were hard to accomplish on a daily basis. Putting the tapes and maps and instructions together seems like a GREAT deal of effort. Also, her attitude when narrating the tapes often comes off as too snarky and full of life, for me. I am interested in the outcome of the show, but they're not really selling the story for me. 

I think that is kind of addressed in future episodes. I think it was almost like therapy for her.

I've been depressed as well, and I agree that there is now way I had my shit together enough to narrate tapes, let alone come up with such an elaborate plan and decorate each tape.

[truthaboutluv]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

MMV, but I didn't really see him as being pushy. I just feel like HANNAH wasn't really seeing other people's perspectives - how hard high school could be for many people, for many different reasons. That not everyone was out to get her.

She told him to go away quietly like three times and he just kept insisting how he really did like her. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he necessarily did anything wrong in that moment but I also didn't see her as just being so awful and mean to him either, YMMV. Also, yes maybe everyone really wasn't out to get her but after multiple incidents, all from that same circle of individuals, I would find it crazier if Hannah had easily believed Zach's intentions were genuine.  Every one of those guys she'd had contact with to that point (talking specifically about Justin, Bryce, Marcus) had turned out to be misogynistic assholes towards her who essentially slut shamed or sexually groped her. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by truthaboutluv