S06.E15: A Wondrous Place

[Noneofyourbusiness]

11 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

None of Gideon's plans make any sense.  He needed the Savior's tears so she wouldn't be able to communicate with Hook?  Did I hear that right?  So if Hook hadn't managed to get a shell phone and through unbelievable luck have Emma go through all his stuff and depositing it outside at that precise moment he called, what would Gideion have done?  I guess he would have come over and confessed all.

And also so that he can prevent any portal forming between Emma and Hook.

[Camera One]

18 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I can't quite remember what order the events came in, but I seem to recall that we started with a scene in the loft with Emma and David, where she's apparently just told him about Hook murdering his father, he's mad and kind of upset that Hook didn't tell him, and she tells him that Hook left town, that Grumpy (?) saw him getting on the Nautilus, and now he's gone for good, he just gave up, she's bummed, they're disappointed in Hook. Then we cut to Hook on the Nautilus in that scene from the sneak preview, where he's freaking out, demanding to be brought back, and declaring that they're going to go Kraken hunting so he can get home. And then we get Aladdin and Jasmine walking in the woods. Maybe. Or possibly in a different order, but I'm pretty sure the Hook scene came immediately after the loft scene.

Thanks!  Darn, I wish I missed the Jasmine and Aladdin scene instead.  Arrgh!

I just remembered it's the Canadian Music Awards tonight... no wonder "Once" was pushed to their second channel.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Camera One

[scenicbyway]

24 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

I feel you on this one. I've complained in the past about the Emma/Regina "friendship", so I do appreciate that at least Regina was making an effort to support Emma, but their interactions were all kinds of awkward and stilted in this episode.

Their interactions are always weird and stilted. If there's any kind of friendly affection the actors hear about the Emma/Regina ship despite CaptainSwan being the actual ship.  I don't blame Emma for holding Regina at arms length.

[superloislane]

That was pretty boring. It's sad because I actually like all the characters but there wasn't much of a point to it. I just keep thinking the show might end this season and yet we spent an entire episode on THIS!

I like Ariel but wow was she just randomly inserted here. They had Ariel say ‘it’s a long story’ and she had a random necklace to explain why she had legs and a voice because they just wanted her in the episode and couldn’t be bothered to come up with an actual explanation for the change in her circumstances. Even though about 30 years later she pops up in Neverland as a mermaid with no voice...so I guess she lost that necklace?

I prefer Aladdin to Jasmine in this show (even though Jasmine is my favourite Disney princess) so I wasn't really into an entire episode from Jasmine's perspective. Oh and they got a true love kiss even though they said this was their first ever kiss...because of course they did! True love is just so rare! Ugh.

Jafar is a great villain and I'm so mad that they decided to have Regina 2.0 and freaking Gideon be the big bads of this season! 

I did laugh at Hook getting madder and madder at everyone. He was saying 'Screw you all I just want to go home to Emma!' all episode. The shellphone scene was lovely.

Emma packed up his things and said something about moving on when Hook was gone for ONE DAY? I can't even blame her because it's just the writers wanting to amp up the tension so they have to have Emma completely believe Hook abandoned her and doesn't love her for their story to work even though it doesn't make much sense for her character. This could all be avoided if the writers stopped pretending that season 5 never happened. Although she is literally the only person who cares that he's gone so I see not much has changed there.

I was actually annoyed at Snow for yet again being a crappy mother. They were supposed to be there to cheer Emma up and listen to her woes but Snow was already half drunk when Emma got there and then explained that SHE needed this because of a curse and toddler (she has a baby not a toddler but whatever) and THEN didn't even stay with Emma at all and decided to challenge a bunch of Vikings! Just try to be good ONCE Snow. Even Charming was better at listening and comforting Emma even though he's the one who would be allowed to be happy that Hook's gone.

Gideon makes no sense. Why did he go through all the trouble of sending Hook away, pretending to be a bartender??? just to get Emma's tears and then using this as a way to force Emma to help him with the Black Fairy? Why did he try to kill Emma the second he arrived instead of asking for her help to begin with?

[scenicbyway]

15 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

And also so that he can prevent any portal forming between Emma and Hook.

Because Hook and Emma can just whip up portals between them?  The last few seasons would've been way easier if they had known that.  But now that Emma's cried that window/portal opportunity has closed...WTH?!

[MaiLuna]

I actually thought this episode was quite entertaining. I like storylines in the Enchanted Forest, so I prefer Jasmine over more Regina, Rumpel and Gideon. I wish Hook would've stayed with Nemo and Liam though. And Oded Fehr is brilliant! I want more of him, please. 

Emma's reaction was disappointing. It was a little better since someone saw Hook getting on the ship, but to actually say he didn't love her? This guy has fought for her many times and I wish Hook found out how little faith she has in him (though he did seem to know she'll think he abandoned her) but they'll probably never address this trust issue. She told him to come back when he was ready, so why did she assume he wouldn't come back? This doesn't make it look like they're ready to get married. We're getting whiplash from Emma saying she needs to move on on one scene to her agreeing to do whatever Gideon wants to get Killian back in the next. 

Regina was a better friend than Snow was a mother. Sigh. 

Bitter about the TLK. Everyone gets one except CS :( 

Edited April 3, 2017 by MaiLuna

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 minutes ago, scenicbyway said:

Because Hook and Emma can just whip up portals between them?  The last few seasons would've been way easier if they had known that.  But now that Emma's cried that window/portal opportunity has closed...WTH?!

We've seen various methods of crossing realms in this show. This episode even introduced a new one with the kraken's blood. Now the idea is that none of them will work between wherever Emma is and wherever Hook is no matter how resourceful either of them is, so Emma has to do what Gideon says. There's the Apprentice's wand, for instance, which the heroes could have used fairly easily to open a portal to Hook if not for this. The Evil Queen used it on Robin just last episode, and presumably left it with Regina.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Noneofyourbusiness]

12 minutes ago, MaiLuna said:

She told him to come back when he was ready, so why did she assume he wouldn't come back?

Perhaps she knew that the Nautilus didn't have enough kraken's blood for a return trip? Also, she didn't tell him to come back or not come back, she told him they couldn't get married until he was ready. She wasn't even kicking him out of the house.

[OnceUponAJen]

16 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

We've seen various methods of crossing realms in this show. This episode even introduced a new one with the kraken's blood. Now the idea is that none of them will work between wherever Emma is and wherever Hook is no matter how resourceful either of them is, so Emma has to do what Gideon says. There's the Apprentice's wand, for instance, which the heroes could have used fairly easily to open a portal to Hook if not for this. The Evil Queen used it on Robin just last episode, and presumably left it with Regina.

How about Emma's son is The Author? Can't he fix this? I'm so confused.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

10 minutes ago, OnceUponAJen said:

How about Emma's son is The Author? Can't he fix this? I'm so confused.

Probably, but he's kept to the rule about not interfering in the lives of people who are in his book before, even under dire circumstances. A plot device they need to keep him from solving every problem.

35 minutes ago, superloislane said:

Gideon makes no sense. Why did he go through all the trouble of sending Hook away, pretending to be a bartender??? just to get Emma's tears and then using this as a way to force Emma to help him with the Black Fairy? Why did he try to kill Emma the second he arrived instead of asking for her help to begin with?

He's not the most rational person. First he wanted to become the Savior himself. Then he went with the blackmail instead of asking for help because, despite what he claims, he's not a hero and doesn't trust people to help out of the goodness of their hearts. Much like his dad.

[Mathius]

34 minutes ago, MaiLuna said:

Bitter about the TLK. Everyone gets one except CS :( 

OQ and RB didn't get one either, actually.  (RB almost had one, but Rumple was having none of it once he realized it could break his Dark One curse.)

[Noneofyourbusiness]

40 minutes ago, superloislane said:

I like Ariel but wow was she just randomly inserted here. They had Ariel say ‘it’s a long story’ and she had a random necklace to explain why she had legs and a voice because they just wanted her in the episode and couldn’t be bothered to come up with an actual explanation for the change in her circumstances. Even though about 30 years later she pops up in Neverland as a mermaid with no voice...so I guess she lost that necklace?

Apparently. That necklace was really random and forced. What really annoys me, though, is Jafar being able to just "break" the genie spell that was such a big deal when the Nyx cursed him on Once-Wonderland, with no more explanation than that.

[ParadoxLost]

4 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

He's not the most rational person. First he wanted to become the Savior himself. Then he went with the blackmail instead of asking for help because, despite what he claims, he's not a hero and doesn't trust people to help out of the goodness of their hearts. Much like his dad.

Oh, I agree.  I'm just thinking his choice of blackmail doesn't work unless his mindset is that of Belle.    He needs to make Emma cry over Hook's abandonment of her but then his leverage is that Hook is in another realm.  Super convenient to his plans that Hook has a shell phone and managed to call Emma.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Oh, I agree.  I'm just thinking his choice of blackmail doesn't work unless his mindset is that of Belle.    He needs to make Emma cry over Hook's abandonment of her but then his leverage is that Hook is in another realm.  Super convenient to his plans that Hook has a shell phone and managed to call Emma.

Yes, since that conveniently proved he didn't leave her. On the other hand, if Gideon had confessed to sending Hook away, they probably would have believed him. Emma just happened to find the phone before he got to her house.

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

* Okay, I'm confused. How did Ariel have legs and a voice in Agrabah? I'm pretty sure they explained it in dialogue, but I couldn't tell what was said.

As Superloislane mentioned, Ariel said, "It's a long story".  Which is another way of saying "It doesn't matter" aka the Writers isn't going to waste time thinking of a backstory for it.  

2 hours ago, sharky said:

And from a post-show EW interview...
While Snow (Ginnifer Goodwin) was all too happy to take Emma out for a night of drinking — Drunk Snow, for the win — to commiserate Hook’s disappearance, Snow also understands. “To a fault, Snow gives everyone the benefit of the doubt, and obviously is obsessed with the idea that people can change, so it’s not something that she would hold against Hook,” Goodwin says.

What? Where the hell was that in this episode? I guess we're supposed to infer that's how Snow feels by the way she gets drunk and plays darts with Vikings because I did not see that at all.

That's probably Ginny desperately trying to explain the idiotic bar storyline she was part of.

57 minutes ago, superloislane said:

Even though about 30 years later she pops up in Neverland as a mermaid with no voice...so I guess she lost that necklace?

That's a really excellent point.  Another continuity error.  

[Dianthus]

Regina seriously needs to FOAD already! She's a shitty friend, and a drunken Girls' Night Out is not what Emma needed at that point (at least they weren't at a total dive like the Rabbit Hole). Sadly, what she did need was a good slap upside the head for doubting Hook. Besides which, Gideon was able to get her tears for his magic. At least this time Emma got Hook's message. Score one for magic vs. technology.

[KAOS Agent]

I don't even know what I just watched. That was so boring and random. Are we done with Aladdin now? Because the only thing that saved that misery was Ariel.

Some notes: 

- Why was Jafar so obsessed with marrying Jasmine? He's all powerful and all that, but he needs to marry Jasmine because why?

- I loved Ariel, mermaid of the sea, arguing the semantics of carpets vs rugs.

- Hook is just so done with everything. He needs to get back to his True Loves, the Jolly Roger and his endless flask of rum.

- I don't understand why everyone kept forcing Emma to cry or whatever they were trying to do. Leave her the fuck alone. Also, good job on getting Gideon exactly what he wanted. 

- Was this only a day later? Because you know, I despise the horrific characterization of Emma believing that Hook had ditched her and talking about moving on, but I'm actually more okay with it if it's only been a day. Emma was in a really rough place and not truly capable of processing things well. If she hasn't questioned things after a month, then I would find that to be worse. If this is only a day, Emma is working to protect herself from hurt and trying desperately to not think about Hook, which means not really examining the why of the weird things he left behind. Plus, he was seen boarding the boat of his own free will and the boat leaving, so the initial response wouldn't be worry that he'd been sent away by Gideon, but rather that he'd actually left like she'd told him to do. Still despise the whole thing.

- On the other hand, everyone else sucks. Emma isn't in a place to deal with this rationally, but where's the hope speech from Snow? Why doesn't anyone stand up for Hook and question what happened? Henry didn't even seem to care about cheering up his mother, much less be bothered that Hook was gone. What the hell? This is where plot runs all over characterization and it's truly terrible.

- Gideon is just on my last nerve. His plans make no sense. Fucking Emma and Hook over to blackmail her into helping him was a truly stupid thing to do. Hostile allies aren't the best. Why not tell Emma his tale of woe and ask for her help first? This is so dumb.

Edited April 3, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

This episode was one of clunkiest in terms of plot maneuverings.  It seemed to bring on a hard right turn every 10 minutes in the most unnatural of ways...
- first, let's get Kraken blood since that apparently opens magical portals
- then Aladdin and Jasmine goes rowing which results in them coming aboard so how about a wish? (nope, wishes backfire)
- then let's find Jafar since he's good at travelling between realms (with a billion and one people who have "revenge" in their hearts, I'm SURE this nautical instrument will conveniently point to Jafar)
- then, submarine accident (oh, need to go back to that wish idea!).  

Meanwhile, in Storybrooke, we have the suddenly powerful "Tears of a Savior" (is it as good as Chanel No. 5?).  And Gideon just pivoted 360 degrees and now doesn't want to kill Emma anymore, but who needs to explain that, eh?

The flashback was equally disjointed.  As someone said above, Jafar could have gotten the ring in a multitude of ways.  If the ring had to be willingly given, they needed to specify that.

The writing for Jasmine has been atrocious.  It is such a waste of the actress.  Her character motivations were all over the place.  I never bought why she couldn't be with Aladdin before, and I still didn't in this episode, neither in flashback nor in present-day.  So basically, this entire time, she knew what had happened to Agrabah but she was just lying about it?  Oh yeah, totally forgot, every Disney Princess' main characteristic is to lie.  Later on in the episode, she proposed going into every tent to find a soldier, a strong peasant, since she needed a hero.  WTF?  There's pathetic and there's *really* pathetic.  The character was impossible to root for.  The TLK still did get me a little, but it was unearned.

It makes me wonder if this is all really bad writing and plotting, or if they were forced to wrap up Agrabah in a single episode (like they had to wrap up The Evil Queen in a single episode last week).

What else was there?  Oh yeah, that boring and pointless 2-for-1 coupon for the bar.  Is Regina that cheap?  She can literally create money out of thin air.  At this point, it was almost funny how Emma and Regina got to talk at the bar while you could only see 1/3 of Snow's body on the edge of the screen getting drunk.  And then they usher her off to have knife throwing competition with Vikings.  Oh well, I guess she got to hug Emma later, so thank goodness for scraps?

The dialogue was not well-written in this episode, especially for Emma.  I did like the moment with the shell phone, though.  That did have its intended effect, at least on me.  

I did enjoy Ariel.  I liked the scene with her and Eric... well, until he turned into Jafar.  Though Jafar was more entertaining in that scene and the last one with Jasmine, even though I generally dislike villains.

There were just too many dumb moments overall.  Like when Ariel was looking through that eyeglass when the magic carpet was rocking back and forth like crazy and somehow she could see Eric?  And then later when Aladdin said he could see his hovel in the miniature of Agrabah in the ring... was he joking?  

This poor writing doesn't give me much hope for the show.  6B has been even more of a mess than usual.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Camera One

[BoPeeps]

Hey writers...PPFFFFTTT.

[Mathius]

35 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

- Why was Jafar so obsessed with marrying Jasmine? He's all powerful and all that, but he needs to marry Jasmine because why?

He didn't need to marry her, that was just a ruse to get his hands on the ring.

Quote

So basically, this entire time, she knew what had happened to Agrabah but she was just lying about it?

While I think Jasmine being responsible for Agrabah's disappearance works better for her story, that was so painfully a retcon that they did not have in mind when writing the earlier episodes, and only applied now since they realized they only had one episode to finish this subplot.

Honestly, I liked this episode better than most here.  Maybe my standards have just gotten so low after how much incredibly crappy episodes we've had in this season.  Plus I love Colin, Karen, Faran, Joanna, and Oded, and I liked seeing them work off of each other.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Mathius

[PixiePaws1]

I think we might have missed an opportunity for a new thread for utterly OOC comments, because , come ON...Captain Hook calling a reef  'scary'...???!!!!! What rubbish is that???

[Arnella]

Am I the only one that caught some initial chemistry between Aesop and Emma?  Quickly dispelled and then I remembered that Emma doesn't get to have any friends besides Regina.  And then, it was just @#$% Gideon and we'll never see that guy again.  sigh

Mixed feelings about Snow's bar scenes.  Loved the flash of Bandit Snow but did they make her immediately drunk so she couldn't make any meaningful comments regarding Hook?  I think she would have been for giving him the benefit of the doubt.

How much do I love Oded Fehr?  How awesome is he with what little he is given?  How much was I looking forward to him being a really juicily big bad at the beginning of the season? How cheated do I feel right now?

Edited April 3, 2017 by Arnella

[PixiePaws1]

12 minutes ago, Arnella said:

 

How much do I love Oded Fehr?  How awesome is he with what little he is given?  How much was I looking forward to him being a really juicily big bad at the beginning of the season? How cheated do I feel right now?

Oh god yes!! Instead of awesome Hyde and Jafar we got....EQ x2 ....to quote Aladdin...Eww!

[Kktjones]

Just for fun, I went back and looked for a couple quotes related to this episode from A&E. 

• From TVLine article about Ariel's return: “Ariel returns and meets Princess Jasmine as they join Hook on an adventure as he and Emma face a daunting challenge that requires a big time princess team-up,”
• From the Facebook Live interview: Q: Can you tease anything about Hook’s adventure with Ariel & Jasmine? A: I think all three of them, you will find, are motivated very strongly by something that’s pushing at each one of them and they find that only together could they potentially solve all of their problems. 

After watching this episode, neither of these make sense. What is the "daunting challenge" facing Hook & Emma? Is it just him getting back to Emma? If so, that's a really strange way to word that. And in the second one, all three of them weren't motivated - only Jasmine & Hook were. Ariel was just helping out. Anyway, it just goes to show that trying to find any clues about what's coming from A&E interviews is an exercise in futility.

[Mari]

10 hours ago, Mathius said:

OQ and RB didn't get one either, actually.  (RB almost had one, but Rumple was having none of it once he realized it could break his Dark One curse.)

Technically, Robin/Regina weren't True Loves, they were soulmates.  Which, according to our stellar writing team, is different, but not different-different.

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Curio said:

And the whole reason Henry looked so disinterested in Emma putting away Hook's things is because he was treating the situation like a normal person.

That's about the only thing that might salvage Henry here. Otherwise, we have the situation where he made a breakup basket with chocolate and wine when Regina's relationship with the guy she'd been dating for two days ended, but when Emma's live-in fiance vanishes, Henry can't be bothered to remove his headphones or lift his eyes from his phone. On the other hand, that's about as close to being a normal teenager as we've ever seen Henry. He looked like he was truly at home and comfortable. We've never seen him like that in Regina's house. It was just a weird context for seeing him just chilling (like I loved Snow throwing knives with Vikings, but in that context it came off as a bit callous).

I was wondering, was there ever an Aesop who came to town and opened a bar, or was the whole thing part of Gideon's scheme? It's still a bizarrely convoluted scheme, but there are layers of contrivance -- did Gideon find out that the gang was going to a girls' night out, poof Aseop away, and impersonate him? Did Gideon poof Aesop away, impersonate him, and give Regina the coupon to ensure that the girls' night out would happen? Or was Gideon behind the whole thing? Did he send Hook away in a way that would make Emma think Hook abandoned her, create the Aesop identity, open a bar, and pass out coupons so he could get Savior tears and also have Hook as a hostage? And how did he know about any of this? We've got that bizarre villain omniscience thing going on here, where the guy who's been in town for a few days and who hasn't interacted with Emma except for the sword fight somehow knows the ins and outs of Hook and Emma's relationship, including a fight that happened inside their house that neither of them has told anyone else about in any detail.

And then there's the fact that "Hey, Savior, I need your help in defeating a particularly dark villain and freeing her realm from darkness" would probably have been even more effective, and a lot easier.

I'm not sure why they had to go so far as to make Emma completely give up on Hook in order to make this plot work. It seems to me like it would have been more effective (and less of a character assassination) if she'd been clinging to hope and in denial while everyone else was writing him off. She'd still have needed cheering up if she thought he went away to find himself and their engagement was temporarily off. She'd still have had reason to cry if she realized how much she missed him and needed him now that he was gone. About the only thing I can think of that required the string of contrivances and out-of-character behavior was her being outside with his stuff when she got the shell call and Gideon approached. If she'd heard the call while the trunk was inside her house, Gideon couldn't have approached her the way he did. I guess she could have run outside with the shell to get better reception, or she could have been going through his stuff, saw the shell, and went to sit out on the porch, away from Henry, to attempt to make her own shell call to him.

The shell phone thing is sadly reminding me of the bit on Galavant where they attempted to communicate via that necklace that she never took off (that we'd never seen before), but the reception was terrible and she thought he said he hoped she died in a fart. But that was satire of this kind of situation and not to be taken seriously, and yet it still made more sense and seemed less contrived.

[kili]

So, Gideon created a bar and became Aesop just to make Emma cry? Watch the entire town cry when they find out the new place in town is closed already. "Closed due to a Viking Infestation", "Success! Bar Closed". Gideon is the Rube Goldberg of plans.

Emma's got enough issues. Now she learns "There is No Crying in Storybooke (for Saviours)" because somebody can save your tears and do bad things.

[Karen885]

This is the episode that finally made me delete my series recording.  It has been on thin ice all season and I was trying to think of one plot I care about and couldn't come up with one.

[tennisgurl]

Oh...show.

This episode seems to be the personification of how this show shows glimmers of brilliance, only to blow it to smithereens in favor of contrived bullshit. First of all...Jafar is an AWSEOME villain! Oded Fehr was just perfectly walking that line between hammy over the top villain, and actually being scary and competent. Plus, he's actually a classic Disney villain who might have drawn in some viewers interested in seeing a live action Jafar. But...nope. He gets two episodes, and now dead, and we`re stuck with whiny idiot Gideon as the Big Bad. Its Mr. Hyde all over again. They had a great villain gift wrapped for them, but instead went with what will give more screen time to their favorites.

This show is the equivalent of having the Three Stodges standing next to a table full of pies and them deciding to debate health care reform. YOU HAD WHAT PEOPLE WANTED RIGHT THERE AND YOU BLEW IT!!!

I actually thought the Agrabah stuff was pretty decent, if underwhelming. Aladdin and Jasmine turned out to be a waste, but I guess it could have been worse. I enjoyed Jasmine and Ariel meeting, but that should have been WAY more epic. Little kid Tennisgurl would have lost her shot at two of her favorite princesses going on an adventure, but this was just half assed. I just love Ariel, so I was really happy to see her. I do wish they could leave their island and get back to Eric's kingdom. Are they ok with their prince just disappearing to an island to live with a mermaid? Also, we get some more small glimpses of world building (Eric's seafaring kingdom, Agrabah and its ports and neighboring kingdoms) that sound way more interesting than what we actually get to see.

Damn it show, you promised me Hook fighting a Kraken! Again, if this show has a cool idea, it will immediately abandon it for stupidity. That being said, Hook was great this whole episode, and his constant attempts to getting back to Emma. That's why he's my favorite. And Captain Nemo and Liam are still great, and actually give a shit about Hook, unlike everyone in Strorybrooke apparently.

Aesop's Table is a bar I totally would like to have seen more of. A bar run by Aesop, frequented by Vikings? That advertises its drink specials on parchment? That's the kind of stuff I actually want to see on this show! Fairytale mixed with modern life. I liked Aesop too, and I thought his story was actually an interesting use of the Land Without Stories. So, of course, it was all Gideon in disguise. Did that bar even exist? Does Aesop? Of course, if this show finds a cool idea, it must be destroyed. Also, I love how Emma seemed to be angry that not only was Aesop a villain in disguise, he wasn't even a bartender! "I bet your drinks aren't even locally sourced, are they?!?!"

Now, onto the worst. Stop making me pissed off at Emma, show! I love Emma! Because, no way would Emma think that Hook would just abandon her without looking back! After one stupid fight! You went to Hell for that guy, he DIED for you, and you think that's the end? Screw all of you! This makes zero sense! Even beyond that, she thinks Hook would leave his flask?!?! Its like you never even knew him!

I'm so torn on Henry. On the one hand, him not being there for his mom, while he was making care packages for Regina when her boyfriend went back to his wife, was annoying as hell, but on the other hand Henry sitting there on his phone, not caring about anything outside of his phone, is the only time I've bought him as an actual kid!

[Curio]

I mentioned this in the Emma thread, but there's more action in this thread at the moment. What if Emma never heard Hook's shell phone call? Would she really have moved on? Would she put in any effort to try and reach out to him? Or would she have eventually just said "whatever" and hook up with the hot bartender? There needed to be some kind of effort on Emma's part to have even the tiniest glimmer of hope for Killian. Otherwise, it really looks like she doesn't know him at all.

A simple rewrite that fixes so, so, so many character issues: Instead of Emma ordering Henry to put Hook's chest out to the shed, she at least has enough respect for Hook that she'd put his chest back on the Jolly Roger. Emma asks Henry to move the chest to the Jolly Roger at the beginning of the episode but gets called away to drink. When she returns home, she finds that Henry hasn't moved the chest. Emma takes the chest back to the Jolly and has her lightbulb moment. "If Hook were to leave for good, he wouldn't leave the Jolly behind." And then at that moment, the shell phone calls.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

but on the other hand Henry sitting there on his phone, not caring about anything outside of his phone, is the only time I've bought him as an actual kid!

This was the only time I was happy with Henry being a selfish teenager. At least he actually helped things this time, though inadvertently.

Quote

What if Emma never heard Hook's shell phone call?

Gideon would have approached her and told her his plan anyway.

Quote

There needed to be some kind of effort on Emma's part to have even the tiniest glimmer of hope for Killian. Otherwise, it really looks like she doesn't know him at all.

Things brings me back to 4A, when she was completely ignorant to Hook's danger. She did nothing until it was all spelled out to her by Hook and Anna in the finale. And I agree, Emma needed to learn or do something before being rewarded. She is getting a resolution handed to her.

Edited April 3, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

This show is the equivalent of having the Three Stodges standing next to a table full of pies and them deciding to debate health care reform.

That's the perfect metaphor for the writing on this show -- all the pieces in place for something awesome that we're looking forward to seeing, but then they don't use them at all and do something boring instead. So we're set up for an awesome ocean adventure with Hook and Nemo and Little Liam on the Nautilus, chasing Kraken, and they have a couple of scenes before Liam and Nemo go back to the ship to apparently die on it for reasons and then Hook gets to stand around in the background while Jasmine is emo.

Though I do think Jafar's fate of being turned into a staff is fitting, given that he trapped Amara in a staff for so long. I will give them points on slight nods to continuity from Wonderland there.

13 minutes ago, Curio said:

A simple rewrite that fixes so, so, so many character issues: Instead of Emma ordering Henry to put Hook's chest out to the shed, she at least has enough respect for Hook that she'd put his chest back on the Jolly Roger.

An even better rewrite is that she never goes into "welp, he never loved me" mode, still sheds some tears because she misses him, and she hears the shell phone call because she finds the shell in his trunk and she's also trying to reach him.

The really damning scene for Emma is when they devoted that much time to her going through his things that we know are meaningful to him, and she still thinks he's abandoned her for good. She looks at the flask -- well, if he was giving up on being a good man and just running off, wouldn't he have taken the flask with him? Leaving the flask and leaving with Nemo on the Nautilus would be a pretty good sign that he's doing something to correct his course. Unless maybe she thought that he decided the flask wasn't enough and he's now strapping the whole keg to his hip. She looks at the ring that she knows is one of the last things he has left of his beloved older brother -- and then apparently decides he's abandoned her for good and wants his stuff dumped in the shed.

[tennisgurl]

18 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Though I do think Jafar's fate of being turned into a staff is fitting, given that he trapped Amara in a staff for so long. I will give them points on slight nods to continuity from Wonderland there.

I did appreciate that. Even if its a different actor, this is still clearly the same character from Wonderland, so it was nice that they at least vaguely admitted that Wonderland existed. I also liked that the prince who pulled a sword on Jafar and got turned into the staff is the suitor who came to court Jasmine at the start of Aladdin. So, someone did actually watch the movie!

Aladdin being a genie here also reminded me how the EQ was super rapey and creepy when he was her genie. So glad that ever so misunderstood sexual predator got her Happy Ending, instead of a well deserved spot on the sex offenders registry!

I continue to crack up over how often the same dozen or so people keep bumping into each other, in an entire gigantic multiverse! I guess this really is set in the Forest of Coincidence*!

*Thanks Galavant! Your satire is our reality*

[Curio]

28 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

An even better rewrite is that she never goes into "welp, he never loved me" mode, still sheds some tears because she misses him, and she hears the shell phone call because she finds the shell in his trunk and she's also trying to reach him.

I was thinking of the simplest rewrite in terms of not changing much about the episode. Like, theoretically, what could one of the writers realistically change on set the day of filming? Swapping out the word "shed" for "Jolly Roger" in the script is something that can be changed on set the day of filming. Changing the entire script so that Emma isn't in "welp, he never loved me" mode is an entire episode overhaul.

[maryle]

Quote

 

I watched it ! And I so bore with everything except Drunk Snow!

Surely one of the best scene of the year to seeing drunk Snow imite the horn.

They really waste Ginny Talen!  

But, Aladdin and Jasmine remain me kindergarten kinda love story certainly not the kind that can break all curse.

I cringe at the banality of dialogue between Aladdin and her. In fact, all the Jasmine stuff was so so boring and the actress contrasting with the Ariel actress was so bland.

More Ariel and Snow! 

Killian was good in his scene and Emma was clearly hurt.

All the critique toward her are  too much and to harsh considering all she had experiencing in her life.

At the end she again choose to help Killian at almost any price. So, she does priorities him and their relationship.

[Shanna Marie]

42 minutes ago, Curio said:

Changing the entire script so that Emma isn't in "welp, he never loved me" mode is an entire episode overhaul.

The sad thing is, it isn't really. It requires changing that line to something about realizing how much she misses him, changing the line about moving on to not ready to move on (which could be what spurred her to go home and get the shell), cutting the line about telling Henry to take the chest to the shed, and then has her opening the chest and taking out the shell, then going outside to try it. A bit more than changing "shed" to "Jolly Roger," but it's still not a major rewrite that changes anything that matters in the plot, and it keeps Emma from looking quite so bad.

Most of the recent plot arcs, and particularly this episode, comes across like the writers have a jar full of tropes and story elements, and to get an episode, the writers have to draw three or four and find a way to write them in. With this one, I think it was a girls' night out, a True Love's kiss, a Kraken, and a magic carpet.

[Rumsy4]

That was an okay episode. The highlights were Hook and Jafar (what a wasted opportunity--he was awesome!). Liam 2.0 and Nemo were other wasted opportunities. Instead the writers decided to saddle us with the bland and boring not!couple from Agrabah. At least Jasmine finally did something proactive instead of looking for a hero. Please never return!

Emma only wants Hook when she's sure he will support her and love her. One toe out of line, she'll dump his most precious possessions in the trash. I guess the writers don't want people rooting for the CS wedding, because I certainly am not. And great job on tattling about Hook's secret to David, Emma! That was totally your story to tell. NOT.

The whole bar thing came across as though Regina had a crush on Emma, and was angling to finally make a move on her. Wanting her to open up? Really? 

On the plus side, always love seeing Ariel. She's adorable! 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, Kktjones said:

And in the second one, all three of them weren't motivated - only Jasmine & Hook were. Ariel was just helping out.

He must have been conflating it with when she teamed up with Jasmine in the past and both were highly motivated, Ariel to find Eric and Jasmine to get help for Agrabah.

[superloislane]

22 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

And great job on tattling about Hook's secret to David, Emma! That was totally your story to tell. NOT.

He's her dad! He has every right to know about the thing that affected his life. Especially since she's thinks Hook's not coming back. Otherwise she'd have to lie to him about what's going on between her and Hook and what's going on between her and Hook is something that affects David.

I've given it some thought and I'm not mad about the 'moving on' line. She says it like she's just agreeing with what Regina and Snow were saying “You were probably right. It’s probably what I needed … It’s probably what I need…to move on.” 3 probablys. And then the second she hears him she starts tearing up and tells him she loves him even though he can't hear her. She clearly didn't mean it - she was just in pain and when you're in pain and you have the sort of severe abandonment issues that Emma has, then you're going to act mad, emotional and closed off as she was before because that's how she protects herself.

Edited April 3, 2017 by superloislane

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

She clearly didn't mean it - she was just in pain and when you're in pain and you have the sort of severe abandonment issues that Emma has, then you're going to act mad, emotional and closed off as she was before because that's how she protects herself.

The writers are picking and choosing when the abandonment issues matter. When Regina left to go pout about Marian in 4A, she pursued her. When Hook died and told her to let him go in S5, she chased him all the way into the Underworld. She went looking for the parents who abandoned her for 26 years, and didn't stop until there was absolutely nowhere else to go. After Neal left her, she went looking for him in Tallahassee for two years. 

But then you have all her WALLS moments where she runs away. Character development never sticks on this show.

[Curio]

Maybe the fight between Hook and Emma last episode was supposed to be a lot different than what we saw on air. Emma told David that she and Hook decided to take a break from talking to each other, but I don't actually remember Emma saying that? I'm just having a hard time buying that Emma would jump to the conclusion that Hook abandoned her, especially since we already had an episode earlier this season where Hook and Henry were forced to board the Nautilus for a few hours. Why wasn't that incident brought up? Also, because it needs repeating...Killian was gone for a day. He wasn't even gone long enough to file a missing person report.

Also, Robert was David's father, yet David only gets 30 seconds to react to all of this?? Will Hook and David even get the chance to discuss this for longer than a minute before the season ends? Or will everything be swept under the rug by the time Hook returns to Storybrooke? What will everyone's reactions be tomorrow? "Hey guys, guess what! Hook didn't abandon me like I said he did yesterday! He was forced out of town by Gideon! What a big misunderstanding!" "So...are we supposed to like him again? Yesterday we were having drinks and calling him no good. You said you were going to move on." "And you believed me? Come on! I always knew Hook wouldn't actually abandon me. Why didn't any of you try to convince me otherwise? It's not like you guys actually wanted me to dump him for good. Right?" "Uhhh..." 

[Shanna Marie]

21 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The writers are picking and choosing when the abandonment issues matter.

Yeah, I would think that if your issue is abandonment, you wouldn't push someone away or send them away. If she's afraid he's going to abandon her, she'd drag him over to the sofa to sit down and talk it out. Unless she's getting into some passive-aggressive nonsense, where she pushes him away, but it's really a test and he's supposed to know that she really wants him to stay, and she just wants to see if he'll stay even if she's pushing him away. Though, in fairness to Emma, she hasn't yet said anything about walls or abandonment in all this. She was mad at him because she'd worked so hard to break down her walls and then he put up walls of his own. The problem there is that he's always had walls of his own. He just doesn't draw attention to them, and he hides them behind a facade. Meanwhile, his big issue is shame and self-loathing, and he was acting in character with that, fearing that others will hate him as much as he hates himself, and her reaction validated his fears. She doesn't seem to have seen that.

6 minutes ago, Curio said:

Emma told David that she and Hook decided to take a break from talking to each other, but I don't actually remember Emma saying that?

I guess maybe she thought that was implied in her vague semi-ultimatum about maybe they'd talk when he'd figured things out. And I go back to what I said in the previous episode: if you give back the ring with very vague conditions about how to work things out, without a specific thing that you expect him to do, then it's really hard to feel that sympathetic about her sorrow that he didn't come back. Now it's even harder when there are all kinds of signs that he didn't leave for good, and she's already written him off.

9 minutes ago, Curio said:

What will everyone's reactions be tomorrow? "Hey guys, guess what! Hook didn't abandon me like I said he did yesterday! He was forced out of town by Gideon! What a big misunderstanding!" "So...are we supposed to like him again? Yesterday we were having drinks and calling him no good. You said you were going to move on." "And you believed me? Come on! I always knew Hook wouldn't actually abandon me. Why didn't any of you try to convince me otherwise? It's not like you guys actually wanted me to dump him for good. Right?" "Uhhh..." 

And this is why you never indulge in an ex-bashing session when a friend has gone through a breakup. You can nod as they rant and rave, but you never agree, because there's a good chance they'll work it out, and then you become the friend who always hated the SO. But her quick turnaround was part of what was so annoying. She's all "I guess he didn't really love me, maybe I should move on" and having his stuff sent to the shed, but the moment she learns what happened, she's right back in love, like she flipped a switch. And I bet that the fact that she totally gave up on him within a day will never come up, never be an issue. He'll probably even have to be the one to grovel and prove himself to come back. I wonder if it's because they think they have a mostly female audience, and so they have to abide by the romantic comedy rule that it's always the man's fault, and the man always has to be the one to grovel and prove himself because the audience will be identifying with the woman. That's the way about 98 percent of the misunderstanding plots go. She's the one to jump to a conclusion about him, she's wrong, but he's the one who has to prove himself, and the fact that she thought the worst of him is never an issue.

[Curio]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And I bet that the fact that she totally gave up on him within a day will never come up, never be an issue. He'll probably even have to be the one to grovel and prove himself to come back. I wonder if it's because they think they have a mostly female audience, and so they have to abide by the romantic comedy rule that it's always the man's fault, and the man always has to be the one to grovel and prove himself because the audience will be identifying with the woman. That's the way about 98 percent of the misunderstanding plots go. She's the one to jump to a conclusion about him, she's wrong, but he's the one who has to prove himself, and the fact that she thought the worst of him is never an issue.

Here's the thing—I wouldn't mind Emma's flawed behavior if the show called it what it is. If Emma actually admitted she jumped to a conclusion and felt bad about it, then I can accept this writing. But they're portraying Emma as being totally in the right here. These writers can never seem to handle telling a balanced story between two characters. One point of view is always more dominant than the other, or one person's reaction is always more justified. How about both Emma and Killian reacted poorly? Killian shouldn't have been a coward and should have told Emma he was thinking about taking a vacation long before he reached the docks, and Emma shouldn't have immediately assumed the worst about her potential future husband literally 12 hours after he left town. I'm a woman, but I also want to see realistically flawed women on television. (Shoutout to Big Little Lies for nailing this. If you haven't watched it already...go watch it.) If they portrayed Emma's choice to view the worst in Killian as a bad thing, then I'd actually respect her character and enjoy watching her make a mistake because I'd know that she'd eventually learn her lesson. But by portraying Emma's quick assumption as the correct path, I can't enjoy it because I know Emma won't learn any lessons from this.

[kili]

Jasmine could wish for anything. She'd previously wished to be taken realm hopping. Aladdin as a genie has all the power in the cosmos (and an itty-bitty living space). She's on a submarine that is sinking. It was badly damaged when it rescued her and her beloved from a kraken attack. 

What does she do? She wishes the five people in the room (possible the others) to an island? Why not just wish to fix the ship?

Maybe the mermaids can help Nemo fix his sub? I don't think they have diving bells or SCUBA tanks in the Enchanted Forest.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

So I watched this.  The Good News is that it wasn't as bad as I feared it would be.  The bad news is it was a typical OUAT ep that full of plot holes and rushed resolutions.  Other random notes and nitpicks:

• I liked Hook being all take charge (sexy pirate, indeed!) but it bothered me, because he's NOT the captain of the Nautilus!  That was so out of line for him to act that way on another man's ship and, urgency to get back to his true love aside, he would know that.  Liam2 is pretty bland and boring.  He sure is a cutie-pie though.  Too bad he couldn't stick around.  Maybe he would have developed a personality.  
•  The girl's night out wasn't as bad as the clip made it seem.  The Vikings were cute!  (See - I gotta get my enjoyment where I can anymore.)  Can we keep them?  Drunk Snow challenging them to a knife throwing contest was actually funny.  Emma packing up the chest to take out to the shed made more sense since Leroy (Geez, Leroy - you run right over and tell her that?) said he saw Hook at the docks boarding the Nautilus and it sailing away.  I could understand how she might think he just left in that case.  It's still a shame that she didn't have more faith in him after all the times he's stood by her.  (She didn't go down to the docks and investigate herself?)
• Regina's hair looked really good when she went to the sheriff's office.  
• Oded Fehr was pretty hot and sexy.  I don't know - he almost made marrying Jafar seem like not such a bad proposition, you know?  
• Why the hell was Ariel and Prince Eric (Hello!  he's a prince!  With a castle!) living in a shack on an island?  Also, that was a convenient necklace to give her legs and her voice back.  Yep.  And nooooo explanation of where it came from.  Gotcha.  Still, it was nice having Ariel back.  I liked that she was actually happy to see Hook.  Bet he doesn't get that much.  I didn't buy the romance between Jasmine and Aladdin.  Last time we saw them in Storybrook, she practically showed no romantic interest in him, and now it's all because she's not worthy?  Yeesh.  Would have been nice to see some conflict about that during one of the other many "we have to find agrabah!" scenes.  Couldn't she have confided something like that to her new best friend Snow?  It wouldn't have seemed so out of left field.  

That's all I got for now.  I'm sure the rest of y'all thought up more.  I need to go read it.

[tennisgurl]

I get that Emma has abandonment issues, but her reaction here was just ridiculous. So he went off with Captain Nemo and Liam 2/0? So what? For all she knows, he just wanted to get out of town and clear his head, and was planning to come back in a day! And I'm just over the double standard of how everyone thinks Hook is just an awful person constantly, while every other villain who decides to stop being such a jerk gets the benefit of the doubt instantly. No one was like "maybe something else is going on? Maybe the supervillain who is trying to kill you has something to do with your boyfriends disappearance? Maybe we should wait more then five seconds before deciding the guy who hasn't been a bad guy in YEARS is just a dirty rotten no good pirate?" Of course, we have decided ages ago that being a pirate is a million times worse than being a murderous dictator, so maybe this is all just in character.  

It just looks bad when one half of the couple is willing to fight a Kraken to get back to their significant other, and the other one is moving their stuff out after about six hours of them being gone after a fight. I don't blame Emma, I blame the writers.

Edited April 3, 2017 by tennisgurl

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Yeah, I would think that if your issue is abandonment, you wouldn't push someone away or send them away.

The issue with this conflict is that it keeps changing. First it was about Hook killing Daddy Alcohol PSA, then it was about him lying to Emma about it, then it was about him not trusting Emma enough to take it, and finally it was about him "running away" but not really. It's confusing because a large portion of it is artificial. Hook was largely in character, but it was awfully coincidental for him to stumble upon Charming's dad in the past, see the pages, and later get sent away by Gideon. It all hinges on those three things. Now Emma just so happened to hear the shellphone because of Henry's laziness.

Edited April 3, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Noneofyourbusiness]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why the hell was Ariel and Prince Eric (Hello!  he's a prince!  With a castle!) living in a shack on an island? 

He ended up in Storybrooke, so we can presume his kingdom was demolished by the Dark Curse like Snow and Charming's.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, superloislane said:

She clearly didn't mean it - she was just in pain and when you're in pain and you have the sort of severe abandonment issues that Emma has, then you're going to act mad, emotional and closed off as she was before because that's how she protects herself.

There comes a time when Emma's abandonment issues stop becoming a reason, and instead turn into an excuse for bad behavior. And that time came in S5, when Dark Swan lied to Hook about having Excalibur. And he called her out on it and freaked out over his issues with being controlled. But for Emma to freak out like a teenager at this stage in her relationship (the many many times he's proved himself to her despite her lack of trust, and her family's lack of faith in him), is not excusable. She has the support of her son, her parents (on occasion), and even Regina, apparently. Hook has none. She should've been happy Hook finally had someone like Nemo and his half-brother to get some support and advice from about what she told him to do.

The conflict the writers introduced was about Hook killing Emma's grandfather. But the actual drama is about pointless angst that actually regressed their relationship. Why didn't she freak out like a normal person, wondering if he had been kidnapped by Liam 2.0 again? Or by Gideon? He left all his treasures behind. Why would he leave without those items if he never meant to return? And to believe Leroy of all people! She only believed Killian when she had actual proof that he hadn't abandoned her. That's regressed them right back to 3B. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Half way through the comments.  Stopping for a break. :)

19 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

* When Jafar poofed up as a genie, I didn't recognize him. I laughed because I thought he was some random dude they found by mistake, lol.

Me too!  Actually, it would have been funny if it hadn't been Jafar.  "Uh..who are you?" "Oh, Jafar's in the other bottle from Agrabah Ariel stole er collected."

19 hours ago, AmeliaBedelia said:

Forgot to add: I wanted to see Hook gut a kraken. Maybe next time?

I thought he harpooned the kraken when it was attacking Aladdin and Jasmine?  Could they not have gotten the kraken's blood then?  I don't think that was explained very well.  

18 hours ago, Curio said:

Also, where's my Ariel/Hook slap?!

I liked your scenario, but it would have been funny if she'd slapped him when they first saw each other.Hook: "What was that for?" Ariel: "Just kidding!"
*hugs*

18 hours ago, Mathius said:

I'm headcanoning that Henry's the only one with any faith in Hook after 6x06, and he was too lazy to carry out his stuff on purpose.

Headcannon accepted!