Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen: The Breaker Of Chains, Mother Of Dragons Etc

[ursula]

24 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Maybe some of them really opposed it.

For what it's worth, in the books nobody opposed it. It doesn't really make sense even in the show. If you're sitting at the top of a society that runs on oppression, you're sitting on the oppressed. The "there were good people on both sides of the Slave/Master divide" subplot was so ridiculous, it was offensive and it was really just included in the show to make Dany look darker. 

When you compare to how other characters were whitewashed (Jon not ordering Gilly to leave her baby/ Sansa not betraying Ned), it's very suspicious why the changes made to Dany's arc in Mereen all served to villainize her.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

For what it's worth, in the books nobody opposed it. It doesn't really make sense even in the show. If you're sitting at the top of a society that runs on oppression, you're sitting on the oppressed. The "there were good people on both sides of the Slave/Master divide" subplot was so ridiculous, it was offensive and it was really just included in the show to make Dany look darker. 

When you compare to how other characters were whitewashed (Jon ordering Gilly to leave her baby/ Sansa not betraying Ned), it's very suspicious why the changes made to Dany's arc in Mereen all served to villainize her.

I haven't read the books, but maybe Dany would have seemed too perfect without the changes.  

Plus, the change made the crucifixions at least something more of a moral dilemma, which made things a bit more interesting.  

I also don't think it is unrealistic to think that some would oppose that sort of over the top cruelty to children, while still supporting slavery.  Everyone has their limits.   But, as I said, I would shed tears for any master who died trying to stop the crucifixions of the children, but not any who did anything less than that to stop them, and were later crucified by Dany.  

[ursula]

13 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Plus, the change made the crucifixions at least something more of a moral dilemma, which made things a bit more interesting.  

Well the crucifixions were already a moral dilemma because they were crucifixions! Like Dany reflects on it - I'm paraphrasing here - that her blood was hot and the images of the children were burning in her head as she ordered all the masters nailed with fingers pointing at each other... but later on, when she had cooled down, she felt sick and ordered the corpses to be brought down.

Quote

I haven't read the books, but maybe Dany would have seemed too perfect without the changes.  

Dany wasn't perfect. Astapor had turned into a hellscape after her "revolution". Her dragon possibly killed a child (it's not confirmed in the books if this actually happened or was a scheme... In the books, Dany doesn't fly Drogon to escape from an attack on her. She flies Drogon to get him away from a trap set to kill him. Again, another change the book -> show made that weakened/demonised Dany.)

Her arc was that being well-intentioned wasn't enough to do positive change. She had to actually put in the work. Which she did, even as she failed and picked herself up over and over again. 

[Maximum Taco]

39 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You, sweet summer child. 🙂

By the standards of Essos and Westeros I'm not sure any of the deaths were cruel and unusual, though I guess maybe we want Dany to be better than those standards.

I mean just look at the executions other noble lords carry out. 

Most of them are beheadings or hangings. The Starks do not feed their enemies to Direwolves. 

Dany's methods of execution are in line with the more villainous people like Cersei or Ramsay Bolton. 

Other than Sansa's killing of Ramsay can you name me one instance of a character who is seen as more good than villainous carrying out an execution with the same amount of pain as Dany?

47 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The random master I will give you, though he was probably guilty and she was sending a message that their terrorism would not be tolerate.  Not her finest moment though. 

He was "probably guilty" based on what? I mean we got no information on him, he doesn't even have a name. Sending a message with summary executions are what evil people do. 

51 minutes ago, GraceK said:

That never happened in the books though. That was a show invention, which is irritating. They upped her ruthlessness for show purposes, which really feeds into this bias against her. 

Very, very true. 

Show Dany is SO much more ruthless and cruel then Book Dany.

I'd say Book Dany is actually a good ruler in Meereen and frankly a better person, she makes concessions to keep the peace, she doesn't execute people for no reason, she puts the needs of the city ahead of her own personal needs, she forms a city watch to help keep the Queen's Peace, she has Barristan start training freed slaves in martial arts. She doesn't demand allegiance for nothing when Quentyn Martell comes to see her. 

There's a great essay someone wrote where he posits that she is on a pathway to peace in Meereen before the poisoning at the fighting pits, and I very much buy that theory.

I like Book Dany a lot more than Show Dany. 

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I mean just look at the executions other noble lords carry out. 

Most of them are beheadings or hangings. The Starks do not feed their enemies to Direwolves. 

Dany's methods of execution are in line with the more villainous people like Cersei or Ramsay Bolton. 

Other than Sansa's killing of Ramsay can you name me one instance of a character who is seen as more good than villainous carrying out an execution with the same amount of pain as Dany?

He was "probably guilty" based on what? I mean we got no information on him, he doesn't even have a name. Sending a message with summary executions are what evil people do. 

Very, very true. 

Show Dany is SO much more ruthless and cruel then Book Dany.

I'd say Book Dany is actually a good ruler in Meereen and frankly a better person, she makes concessions to keep the peace, she doesn't execute people for no reason, she puts the needs of the city ahead of her own personal needs, she forms a city watch to help keep the Queen's Peace, she has Barristan start training freed slaves in martial arts. She doesn't demand allegiance for nothing when Quentyn Martell comes to see her. 

There's a great essay someone wrote where he posits that she is on a pathway to peace in Meereen before the poisoning at the fighting pits, and I very much buy that theory.

I like Book Dany a lot more than Show Dany. 

I don't see dragonfire as any worse that hanging, though a bit worse than beheading.  Fire is the purest form of death, you know. :)

Arya brutally executed several characters and she is seen as a good guy.

Stannis would probably be considered a middle of the road character between good and bad and he burned people to death, and more painfully with regular fire.

I also think Dany was generally executing much more vile criminals than most of the other good guys.  

A young man who deserted the NW after seeing White Walkers is not nearly a vile as masters who crucified 163 innocent children.  

[Maximum Taco]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't see dragonfire as any worse that hanging, though a bit worse than beheading.  Fire is the purest form of death, you know. 🙂

Arya brutally executed several characters and she is seen as a good guy.

Stannis would probably be considered a middle of the road character between good and bad and he burned people to death, and more painfully with regular fire.

I also think Dany was generally executing much more vile criminals than most of the other good guys.  

A young man who deserted the NW after seeing White Walkers is not nearly a vile as masters who crucified 163 innocent children.  

Who does Arya execute? Almost all of the kills she makes are in combat. This is not the same as an execution. 

Stannis is evil. He allows his child to be burned alive. He has a shadow kill his brother. He uses blood magic to murder people. He is the world's most boring fanatical cultist. 

[QuinnM]

3 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Who does Arya execute? Almost all of the kills she makes are in combat. This is not the same as an execution. 

Assassins do not have collateral kills.  That's the beauty of an assassin.  I think what everyone is talking about here are the millions (it's KL) that might die if Dany doesn't just go for Cersei.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Who does Arya execute? Almost all of the kills she makes are in combat. This is not the same as an execution. 

Stannis is evil. He allows his child to be burned alive. He has a shadow kill his brother. He uses blood magic to murder people. He is the world's most boring fanatical cultist. 

Arya brutally killed Meryn Trant (and I loved it). 

She tormented Polliver and then stuck Needle into his throat while he was helpless. (Loved that too)/.  

She also slit Walder Frey's throat and smiled down at him as he died.  Oh, and she served him his sons in a pie.  

 I'm not sure how bad poisoning the wine of the Frey men was compared to dragonfire, etc. but that was not combat.   It is quite possible that some of those Frey men were not at the Red Wedding and were "innocent" like some of the Masters.  

[Maximum Taco]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Arya brutally killed Meryn Trant (and I loved it). 

She tormented Polliver and then stuck Needle into his throat while he was helpless. (Loved that too)/.  

She also slit Walder Frey's throat and smiled down at him as he died.  Oh, and she served him his sons in a pie.  

 I'm not sure how bad poisoning the wine of the Frey men was compared to dragonfire, etc. but that was not combat.   It is quite possible that some of those Frey men were not at the Red Wedding and were "innocent" like some of the Masters.  

Fair enough. Arya's pretty brutal. 

But Arya wants to be (or doesn't want to be and is) a professional killer. Not the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. 

I'd be just as nervous if Arya was sitting the Iron Throne, someone that brutal really shouldn't be in charge.

"I'm sure cutting off heads is very satisfying, but that's not the way you get people to work together"

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[JennyMominFL]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Arya brutally killed Meryn Trant (and I loved it). 

She tormented Polliver and then stuck Needle into his throat while he was helpless. (Loved that too)/.  

She also slit Walder Frey's throat and smiled down at him as he died.  Oh, and she served him his sons in a pie.  

 I'm not sure how bad poisoning the wine of the Frey men was compared to dragonfire, etc. but that was not combat.   It is quite possible that some of those Frey men were not at the Red Wedding and were "innocent" like some of the Masters.  

I would not want her on the Iron Throne either

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

Fair enough. Arya's pretty brutal. 

But Arya wants to be (or doesn't want to be and is) a professional killer. Not the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. 

I'd be just as nervous if Arya was sitting the Iron Throne, someone that brutal really shouldn't be in charge.

"I'm sure cutting off heads is very satisfying, but that's not the way you get people to work together"

So who is the strong enough, but brutality free person you want sitting on the IT?  Jon Snow, who executed a little boy?  

[Spartan Girl]

NOBODY has clean hands on this show. You can justify/condemn any of those acts all you want. But the fact remains that Dany is getting thrown under the bus as a Mad Queen when Cersei is so much worse.

At least Dany's never seems to enjoy burning people -- okay, maybe that guy who kept calling her a whore in Valaryan. But on the whole she only kills when she thinks it's necessary. Whether it's deserved or not can be up for debate.

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So who is the strong enough, but brutality free person you want sitting on the IT?  Jon Snow, who executed a little boy?  

I'm honestly not sure if there is a good choice among the current contenders. 

Jon doesn't want the throne, as has been pointed out a lot, and while serving for duty is a nice trope, I don't think it really works out in real life. Unfortunately it really seems like this may be where we are going in this story, which is a big shame. While I oppose Dany's brutality and think it makes her unfit to rule, the show shitting all over her ambition is just terrible. Ambition is something to be praised.

Sansa is far too insular to be a good Queen to the Seven Kingdoms, she might make a good QITN, she is advocating strongly for Northern Independance, which is something the Northerners all feel strongly about, and knows the region well enough to make it run well.

Cersei is the most mad of all the mad people. 

Dany is brutal and cruel, and moves to violence far too quickly. 

Gendry has no experience and can't even bloody read. 

Tyrion actually isn't a bad choice (Show Tyrion, Book Tyrion would be a trainwreck). He's measured and calm, he cares for the people, he ran the realm well as Hand, but it seems unlikely the nobility will accept a dwarf as their King. 

[arty]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

At least Dany's never seems to enjoy burning people -- okay, maybe that guy who kept calling her a whore in Valaryan.

In the run up to S8, this was one of the episodes I re-watched. After, I watched the Inside the Episode segment and was stunned when Dan Weiss spoke of this her burning Kraznys not as a Hell Yeah moment but as one in which Dany displayed a troubling aspect of her personality. He talked about how Dany is capable of taking revenge on people who have done nothing to her. "As her empathy expands so does her cruelty," is how he put it IIRC.

I don't know if I should be impressed that the show kind of duped us into believing that Dany was GRRM's take on Joan of Arc or if I should be annoyed that it did a terrible job of making us understand that there was a duality in her personality that was at odds with itself.

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I'm honestly not sure if there is a good choice among the current contenders. 

Jon doesn't want the throne, as has been pointed out a lot, and while serving for duty is a nice trope, I don't think it really works out in real life. Unfortunately it really seems like this may be where we are going in this story, which is a big shame. While I oppose Dany's brutality and think it makes her unfit to rule, the show shitting all over her ambition is just terrible. Ambition is something to be praised.

Sansa is far too insular to be a good Queen to the Seven Kingdoms, she might make a good QITN, she is advocating strongly for Northern Independance, which is something the Northerners all feel strongly about, and knows the region well enough to make it run well.

Cersei is the most mad of all the mad people. 

Dany is brutal and cruel, and moves to violence far too quickly. 

Gendry has no experience and can't even bloody read. 

Tyrion actually isn't a bad choice (Show Tyrion, Book Tyrion would be a trainwreck). He's measured and calm, he cares for the people, he ran the realm well as Hand, but it seems unlikely the nobility will accept a dwarf as their King. 

I agree with pretty much all that.  

Jon would be a decent King for as long as he could hold onto the throne.  But I am afraid he would end up like Orys the First from Twyin's lesson to Tommen.

I think Dany would actually be a good and just Queen, as long as she had good advisers who were LOYAL.   

Davos might be a good King.  He is a good man, very persuasive and I think shrewd enough to sniff out deception and treason.   He is also shown he knows how to live to a ripe old age.

I think Dany or Jon might do fine with Davos has her/his Hand.  

[JennyMominFL]

2 minutes ago, arty said:

In the run up to S8, this was one of the episodes I re-watched. After, I watched the Inside the Episode segment and was stunned when Dan Weiss spoke of this her burning Kraznys not as a Hell Yeah moment but as one in which Dany displayed a troubling aspect of her personality. He talked about how Dany is capable of taking revenge on people who have done nothing to her. "As her empathy expands so does her cruelty," is how he put it IIRC.

I don't know if I should be impressed that the show kind of duped us into believing that Dany was GRRM's take on Joan of Arc or if I should be annoyed that it did a terrible job of making us understand that there was a duality in her personality that was at odds with itself.

But many of us did see that.

[arty]

Just now, JennyMominFL said:

But many of us did see that.

I wish I had seen it along with the rest of you!

I figured Dany wouldn't live past the end of the series, but I never thought it might be because of her own character flaws. I saw her as a Martyr figure not a Tragic Hero...

[JennyMominFL]

6 minutes ago, arty said:

I wish I had seen it along with the rest of you!

I figured Dany wouldn't live past the end of the series, but I never thought it might be because of her own character flaws. I saw her as a Martyr figure not a Tragic Hero...

All the characters have flaws. Some worse than others.. But Dany is the conquerer, the one trying to become the queen of everything. I dont think there was any way to really not have her be a gray character. I always sort of thought that point was that the titular throne was corrupt. The ones we have seen sitting on it have been corrupt, the  one aiming for it  will become corrupted.  I always felt GRRM was going for the whole "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" story

Edited May 7, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[Maximum Taco]

7 minutes ago, arty said:

I wish I had seen it along with the rest of you!

I figured Dany wouldn't live past the end of the series, but I never thought it might be because of her own character flaws. I saw her as a Martyr figure not a Tragic Hero...

In the books I think she is going to be much more of a tragic figure. She fights harder against her baser urges. There's that violence simmering in her veins that she tries to suppress, and her real dream, the one in her heart, is not of the Iron Throne, but about a simple existence and a house with a red door in Braavos where she lived with Viserys and Ser Willem Darry. She doesn't really want power and a queenship in the books (I mean she does, but that's not her deepest want), she wants a home, and Viserys always told her she'd find that in Westeros. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[DigitalCount]

1 hour ago, JennyMominFL said:

But many of us did see that.

I talked about Dany's expression when she burns Randyll and Dickon in another thread, and last night I was watching this scene. Dany's expression when fire is erupting behind her is pretty much identical to her expression when she is telling Tyrion why she's going to kill the Tarlys. It's similar, but not the same, as when she watches her brother's head hit the floor with a clank.

Full disclosure: I'll never forgive her for how she treated Hizdahr. That was probably the turning point for me, especially when he died for her. Imagine Sansa dying for Joffrey.

[arty]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

She doesn't really want power and a queenship in the books (I mean she does, but that's not her deepest want), she wants a home, and Viserys always told her she'd find that in Westeros. 

Reading the books, I've wondered just how much she really wants a simple life. Isn't there a passage in the first book that is Dany riding with her khalasar and thinking about how happy she is to be loved by Drogo and to be carrying their son. She thinks to herself that she should be perfectly content with her life and future going on just like this, but a part of her knows that she will never be truly happy until her family reclaims the Iron Throne. Am I imaging that whole passage?

It's a passage that I thought of when she told Jon that they could stay by the waterfall for a thousand years, just the two of them. What if Jon had said "yes, let's run away together after defeating the Night King." Would she have been on board with that?

[ShellsandCheese]

7 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

This depends on what you mean by innocents. I don't think Dany has ever killed someone who was truly innocent. However I have issues with almost every death she is a part of, where she isn't being actively threatened.  

IMO the one's in bold are wrong, cruel and at least border on something an evil or mad person would do. 

Viserys - Yeah, this guy deserved to die, he was a jerk, who threatened to cut her unborn child out of her womb, and that's ignoring the years of abuse he heaped on her. And his death was freaking epic, I loved watching it (but that just means it was good TV, I loved watching the Mountain crush Oberyn too.) But molten gold has got to be the very definition of cruel and unusual. She gets a pass on this one from me, cause she wasn't actually the one who did it, and he had just threatened to do vile things to her. But it's still concerning that she let Drogo do it without any word and acted very impassively towards it. 

Mirri Maz Duur - Again, this death is deserved, although I would argue that Mirri also deserved to get her vengeance against Drogo and the Khalasar and Dany is a part of that Khalasar as Khaleesi. But, she eschews a clean death for burning someone alive. 

Pyat Pree - Full pass. Was actively being threatened and chained, and dragons were the weapon at hand. 

Doreah and Xaro - Again, deserved deaths, but letting someone slowly suffocate or starve to death in a windowless vault is maybe the cruelest death in the entire series beyond Cersei making Ellaria watch Tyene die. 

Kraznys and Greizhan (Astapor masters) - Full pass. It's a shady deal to trade your Dragon knowing a dragon cannot be traded, but it's not overly cruel. 

Meereen Masters - This was a cruel death. Yes, it's eye-for-an-eye justice, but that doesn't make it right. Also it doesn't seem like she does her due diligence here. She kills 163 masters for the 163 crucified children, but she doesn't bother to find the ringleaders of the plot. If Hizdar can be believed, his father spoke against the massacre, but he was still in turn massacred by Dany. This was morally grey at least, and black at worst. 

Zalla - The one death that is an innocent, and the only one Dany expresses any regret over. She gets a pass here though, she didn't order this death so it wasn't cruel. At worst it's negligent to let her dragons roam free, but not evil.

Mossador - Full Pass. She gave him a trial, he was definitely guilty, and she gave him a clean death. Nice job Dany!

Master - Selected AT RANDOM to be devoured by Viserion and Rhaegal. Dany even says "Maybe you are guilty and maybe not" and still goes through with this. This is evil. Sorry you cannot convince me differently. 

Bunch of Khals - Pass. Life and death scenario, fire was her only real weapon here. 

Sons of the Harpy - Pass. This was a battle. 

Randyll and Dickon Tarly - Again I don't have an issue with their deaths. She gave them a choice and needed to ensure loyalty. She could've easily set them in a cell for a while, but that's her prerogative. But death by burning is IMO unnecessarily cruel. This did seem to go quickly, so maybe dragon fire kills faster then regular fire, but I still think it must have been much more painful then a quick beheading or knife to the heart. 

That still doesn’t make her mad. Cruel maybe but not mad. And I’ve never seen her derive any pleasure from it either. But I guess people are okay with murder as long it’s done “kindly”. I suppose I should give Cersei a pass for blowing up the Sept because at least people most likely died instantly. 

[SilverShadow]

Noone's brought up what I consider one of Dany's earliest (and worst) sins-when she let Drogo and the others pillage the Lamb Men to sell them as slaves so they could buy ships to get to Westeros. Yeah she tries to 'save' some of the women later, but it's an early instance of her putting her ambition ahead of what's 'right'. 

I like Dany a lot but that was not one of her finest moments. I always thought her later ant-slavery crusade was partially based on the guilt of having been party to that. 

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

I'm honestly not sure if there is a good choice among the current contenders. 

...Ambition is something to be praised.

Drive to do your job well is one thing; the lust to rule over others is not something praiseworthy. Particularly despicable in history were those who claimed it was “for their own good.”

The show may stumble with it, but I think the intention with Jon is that while he doesn’t seek power, when he has it, he tries to do his best for his people.

There’s a theory of kingship that’s somewhat related to the Wildling’s view of kings that likens them to a watchmen. When you need them, you really need them, but when you don’t, the kingdom is better off if they just walk the streets announcing all is well. Jon fits that ideal pretty closely. When you need him, he’ll give his life to protect the Realm, but he’s not interested in seizing any more power for himself in the meantime.

It’s also worth considering who everyone’s got for advisors. Jon’s got Davos for his Hand and you couldn’t ask for better there. If he brings in family, Sansa’s pretty good at day-to-castle management, Bran makes Varys’ spy network look like amateur hour (Little Birds everywhere and everywhen) and Arya’s a Faceless Man. Sam’s got more common sense than the entire Maester leadership (just don’t have him fight for you). Brienne would make a heck of a King’s Guard commander. 

If even half of those sat on Jon’s Small Council, he’d do fine. And if  King’s Landing ends up gutted like Harrenhal, there’s no reason for Jon to even rule from there... he could choose to rule from say, the Riverlands or even Winterfell for that matter.

Dany’s pretty much blinded by her ambition, but, as evidenced by her abject refusal to deal with a succession plan when there was a very real chance of her dying in battle, she hasn’t really thought at all about what she’s going to do once she has the Throne beyond platitudes (essentially repeating her mistakes in Essos where she blew through on her righteous crusade without any plan for what came afterwards).

Worse, her advisor pool has been gutted. Jorah and Missandie are dead. Greyworm doesn’t want to stick around once Dany has the Throne (I think, if he survives the next two episodes, that he’s headed for Naath to honor his promise to Missandie to protect it in her memory). Varys is already plotting her downfall. That leaves her with Tyrion; who’s loyalty is divided between Dany and trying to do everything possible to keep Jaime and even Cersei (and her child) alive somehow.

Even if Dany wins, she’s going to have to rebuild her advisory pool from basically scratch; which, in terms of story structure, is a pretty sure sign she’s going down hard because there’s just no time to introduce them (because it’s sure not going to be Sansa or Sam or Arya or Brienne... probably not Davos either). Jon’s not going be hooking up with her; he tried, but she’s his aunt and he can’t unremember that... and the last thing you want to close on is Dany sitting alone in a bombed out throne room with, maybe, Tyrion beside her.

By contrast, King Jon returning home to Winterfell with Davos and Arya to find Sansa, Bran, Brienne, Pod, Sam and Gilly (maybe even Tormund and Ghost if the winter storms haven’t passed yet) waiting for them is exactly the sort of denument you’d expect of such an epic (i.e. end where you begin to contrast how you’ve been changed).

Likewise, presuming Dany’s fate is to die, I fully expect someone to scatter her ashes (even if she’s normally the Unburnt, ashes feels more appropriate) at the site where the dragons were hatched in the Great Grass Sea; perhaps finding a clutch of dragon eggs that Drogon had laid there while he was wild and free to similarly come full circle.

[ShellsandCheese]

28 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Drive to do your job well is one thing; the lust to rule over others is not something praiseworthy. Particularly despicable in history were those who claimed it was “for their own good.”

Tell that Queen Elizabeth II. 🙂 Seriously though, I understand why Dany didn't do a succession plan - she doesn't have the throne and she doesn't have any heirs. Tyrion is her advisor and he's "supposed" to be one of the smartest people in all of Westeros. They could have figured out a succession after she ascended to the throne. 

A fitting end to Dany's storyline would be for her to "break the wheel" and then realize that she doesn't want it and go retire somewhere with whatever (if she has any left) dragons she has remaining. That's a bittersweet ending. Her life's purpose after the death of her brother, Drogo, and Rhaego was all about the Iron Throne and then she realizes it won't make her happy and it's not want she wants and she moves on. 

Her going mad in the span of two episodes is not a bittersweet ending at all. It seems ridiculous. 

And I know that some people are all like the signs were there, and I disagree. Especially, when it comes to book Dany who couldn't rule, not because she was a tyrant, but because she was kind of weak and naive and was trying to make everybody happy. 

As I've said before, I feel like the show has been building up to to there not being an IT. All these people and great houses being wiped out for something that will soon cease to exist; that makes sense and is very bittersweet. Better writers would have figured out way to get to that point without resorting to making one of your lead characters apparently go mad. 

There could have been ways that they could have hinted that Dany was like dear old dad talking to herself, acting irrationally, killing people for looking at her wrong, displaying paranoia on a regular basis, not having any confidantes because she was so paranoid, etc - this didn't happen. Instead, Dany has been shown as someone who is very willing to let people in and in my opinion she's been too trusting of Tyrion and Varys - who are both snakes. 

[GraceK]

 Found this and it summed up a lot of my thoughts. Not my words though so I can’t claim credit. 

I saw a post pointing out that Theon regained the Starks trust even though he sacked Winterfell and killed two orphan children and other people. But for some reason, Dany has never done anything against the Starks, and just saved their lives, but they still don’t trust her.

We all know the real reason for this contradiction: bad nonsensical writing. But you know what? Fuck it. I have tried to avoid talking shit about characters, because I’m not an anti, and because I know very well that this is nothing but bad writing. But the truth is: in the show, they have made the Starks villains. So I’m going to forget the Doyalist reasons here, and make a full Watsonian analysis, to show why I think this. Also, why I think Daenerys is much more sympathetic than any other character in the show right now.

Dany has proved herself to be a true hero that is willing to sacrifice her ambitions for the good of her people. She agreed to help Jon fight against the Army of the Dead without demanding him to bend the knee when she saw the threat. She knew very well that by the end of the fight against the dead, she could have lost a good part of her power. She knew that she could lose her armies, her dragons, and her chance to claim the Iron Throne, something she fought for half of her life. And not only she could lose her chance of getting the throne, she knew she could lose her life. And yet, she fought. She climbed on a dragon and protected people, even though she knew that if she fell off that dragon, she would be completely defenseless, because she didn’t know how to defend herself with a sword. But she took the risk anyway. She was unable to simply watch while her people were slaughtered, and saved many lives because of this. Thanks to her courage and her selflessness, the world was saved. And yes, after the war, she expected loyalty from the Northerners, she expected their help, but only because Jon had decided to bend the knee. If Jon never bent the knee, she would have still fought for the North, because that’s what she swore to Jon in 7x06. Truth is, Dany didn’t demand the Norh to bend the knee anymore, but now that Jon has bent the knee, she rightfully expects them to help her. After all, she has fulfilled her duty of protector of the realm.

But even after that, the Starks don’t accept her, and this has nothing to do with trust issues (as pointed out by the hypocrisy of forgiving Theon but refusing to trust Dany). This is about power. The Starks are simply unwilling to put their enmities aside. They are unwilling to let go of their power. They want independence, they want to be the only ones to have control over the North, and they don’t want to bow to anyone. They want to keep their xenophobic attitudes of “no outsiders”. This is what matters to them. So people like Sansa are willing to disregard her brother’s feelings, only for the North to be independent. She’s willing to spark a war by conspiring against Dany and telling Jon’s secrets, completely disregarding the potential loss of human lives that a new civil war between two Targaryens could cause. She makes this whole theatrics of “let the soldiers rest”, as if she’s some great leader that cares about people, when in reality she couldn’t give a fuck about people’s lives, because she’s willing to spark a war against Dany, for no reason at all (Dany has done nothing for Sansa to think that she’s untrustworthy or that she needs to be deposed), all because she wants to keep her power, all because of independence (and this independence is for pride and power, nothing else).

Antis talked a lot about how Dany was power hungry. They talked a lot about how Dany should just give up her ambitions for the greater good. And guess what? Dany did it. She gave up her ambitions, she pledged  to fight for the North without them bending the knee. And after the fight, she lost most of her armies. And going North to help, without taking down Cersei first, allowed Cersei to get stronger, and because of that, her dragon and her best friend are dead. All because Dany chose to do the right thing and help the North. Not only that, but after learning about Jon’s parentage, she still saved his life twice. And now her selflessness is coming to bite her in the ass, because if she had let Jon die, there wouldn’t be people plotting to put him in her place.

While Dany has shown herself to be completely selfless, at great cost to herself, the Starks have done nothing of the sort. When it was their time to return the favor, they refused to make any self sacrifices, refused to give up on any of their ambitions. They wanted to use Dany for her resources, and then discard her when she wasn’t useful anymore. And now they are being asked to set aside their enmities in the name of making peace, but they refuse it and still struggle for power, and Sansa is actively trying to start a civil war.

Samwell Tarly asked Jon Snow this question, about Daenerys Targaryen: “You gave up your crown to save your people. Would she do the same?” And the answer is yes. She would. But the same can’t be said for the Starks. When asked to give up on the Northern crown for the good of their people, and to save all people of Westeros from another civil war, they refused it.

Show!Starks are evil, selfish, power hungry people. They don’t care about their people, only about their power. They are xenophobic. And they refuse to show any kindness or warmth or empathy to a woman that saved their lives, a woman that their brother loves (so they don’t even care about their brother). Show!Starks are the antithesis of Book!Starks. Book!Starks represent family and unity, honor and empathy, and they care about what really matters. They are the fire against the cold, because their love and goodness goes against the evil and indifference in the world. Show!Starks are the personification of the cold. They refuse to show kindness and empathy, and choose to play the game of thrones. They are the new Lannister, with their mentality of “she isn’t one of us”.

Daenerys might be going insane after all of the disrespect and traumas and unkindness she endured. But the truth is, while Daenerys might become a villain because of insanity after being pushed too far, the Starks are villains by choice. And that, in my opinion, is worse.

A little harsh maybe because I don’t classify Arya as being that bad, but other wise I think it’s on point. 

[Andromeda]

Is it OK to post an article here, and not in the media thread? It's all about Dany. BTW, it's from TIME Magazine.

There’s One Major Problem With the Daenerys ‘Going Mad’ Plotline on Game of Thrones

Quote

For some fans, the decision to cast Daenerys as an evil queen feels like an unearned turn in the story. Since the first season, Daenerys has been determined to sit on the Iron Throne. But never has she been so singleminded so as to alienate — and cause fear in — her closest allies. She was, after all, the Breaker of Chains, the woman who was going to break the wheel.

In order to keep the parallel plot lines going, the show presented Daenerys as an unabashed hero for seven seasons. She and Jon proved the most popular heroes to cheer for — not only because they cheated death but because they spent time with those who weren’t like them and learned to understand them. They saved the exiled and enslaved. Now, with just a few episodes left, the writers are determined to tear her down.

I want to quote more, like the great point on how parentage used to be something the main characters pushed away and refused to be defined by, but the link is above.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Andromeda
TIME

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

A fitting end to Dany's storyline would be for her to "break the wheel" and then realize that she doesn't want it and go retire somewhere with whatever (if she has any left) dragons she has remaining. That's a bittersweet ending. Her life's purpose after the death of her brother, Drogo, and Rhaego was all about the Iron Throne and then she realizes it won't make her happy and it's not want she wants and she moves on. 

Her going mad in the span of two episodes is not a bittersweet ending at all. It seems ridiculous. 

Totally agree, this madness arc is not bittersweet, it's devastating.

I'm beginning to think I should have been rooting for the Night King to win last week to save us from the real horror, which are these last three episodes.  Because if they do with Daenerys what it looks like they're going to do, it just guts me.

[Sakura12]

A bittersweet ending for Dany should be her realizing she should've stayed in Essos. I wouldn't even mind if she was like screw it and took Drogon, the Unsullied, the Dothraki and Missandei's body back home. And just gave Jon a letter recognizing him as the rightful heir and said he and his Northerners can deal with Cersei. 

I also don't get the Dany was always mad thing. Others has swords as weapon, Dany has a dragon. You can't tell me if these other characters had access to a dragon they wouldn't use it to take out their enemies and have to be talked out of it. If she were truly mad, she would never listen to any advisors and burn them when they failed her. Yet we saw Tyrion fail constantly and she still listened to him. Costing her a dragon and her best friend. If she were a mad power hungry monster she would not have had Jon and Sansa sit at a council to determine Jamie's fate. She would not have listened to them. 

People cheer when Sansa and Arya kill characters that wronged the Starks, but Dany is insane when she kills characters that wronged others, like slave owners. That once again showed it wasn't only for her. The Unsullied are free men they don't have to follow her, they choose too. The Dothraki don't follow her because of her house name, they follow the woman who can walk through fire. Is Dany vengeful, yes. Just like most of the other characters. Is she insane, I don't see that. 

She's most likely going to die alone next episode and that is going to piss me off. I hope this wasn't the end that GRRM had in mind for her. BookDany is very different and if I don't get a bittersweet ending for her on the show, I only have the books left to give me that. 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

A bittersweet ending for Dany should be her realizing she should've stayed in Essos. I wouldn't even mind if she was like screw it and took Drogon, the Unsullied, the Dothraki and Missandei's body back home. And just gave Jon a letter recognizing him as the rightful heir and said he and his Northerners can deal with Cersei. 

I'm reminded of a pop song from the 50s or early 60s I heard several years go. I forget the song's title, or who sang it, but the gist of the lyric was It's not you, I can't stand your family

[Spartan Girl]

You know it really would have been nice if, at the burnings/feast, Sansa had noticed Dany there looking heartbroken, lonely, and a bit angry that Jon was getting credit for all the stuff she did, and thought, "Oh wow, I know how that feels."  And instead of glowering at her, come over and offered her condolences about Jorah and Dany thanked her and offered the same about Theon, and the two of them sat together and Dany opened up about how Jorah was always there for her since the Dothraki and how much of an asshole Varys was, which got Sansa talking about Joffrey and Ramsey...and then the two of them would have realized that they have a lot in common in all their struggles and Sansa assured her that the North would stand by her, and Dany told her that she'd let the North retrain its independence, etc.

BUT OH NO.  We get the same old shit of women not being able to get along for (insert reason here).

So much wasted potential.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[izabella]

1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

You know it really would have been nice if, at the burnings/feast, Sansa had noticed Dany there looking heartbroken, lonely, and a bit angry that Jon was getting credit for all the stuff she did, and thought, "Oh wow, I know how that feels."  And insteading of glowering at her, come over and offered her condolences about Jorah and Dany thanked her and offered the same about, Theon, and the two of them sat together and Dany opened up about how Jorah was always there for her since the Dothraki and how much of an asshole Varys was, which got Sansa talking about Joffrey and Ramsey...and then the two of them would have realized that they have a lot in common in all their struggles and Sansa assured her that the North would stand by her, and Dany told her that she'd let the North retrain its independence, etc.

BUT OH NO.  We get the same old shit of women not being able to get along for (insert reason here).

So much wasted potential.

Completely agree.  The writers want to be oh-so-subversive, but they can't let go of their totally trite, cliche, and completely expected perspectives to write women differently, so we get "ooh, she's jellus!"

[TheGreenKnight]

16 hours ago, GraceK said:

But even after that, the Starks don’t accept her, and this has nothing to do with trust issues (as pointed out by the hypocrisy of forgiving Theon but refusing to trust Dany). This is about power. The Starks are simply unwilling to put their enmities aside. They are unwilling to let go of their power. They want independence, they want to be the only ones to have control over the North, and they don’t want to bow to anyone. They want to keep their xenophobic attitudes of “no outsiders”. This is what matters to them. So people like Sansa are willing to disregard her brother’s feelings, only for the North to be independent. She’s willing to spark a war by conspiring against Dany and telling Jon’s secrets, completely disregarding the potential loss of human lives that a new civil war between two Targaryens could cause. She makes this whole theatrics of “let the soldiers rest”, as if she’s some great leader that cares about people, when in reality she couldn’t give a fuck about people’s lives, because she’s willing to spark a war against Dany, for no reason at all (Dany has done nothing for Sansa to think that she’s untrustworthy or that she needs to be deposed), all because she wants to keep her power, all because of independence (and this independence is for pride and power, nothing else).

Antis talked a lot about how Dany was power hungry. They talked a lot about how Dany should just give up her ambitions for the greater good. And guess what? Dany did it. She gave up her ambitions, she pledged  to fight for the North without them bending the knee. And after the fight, she lost most of her armies. And going North to help, without taking down Cersei first, allowed Cersei to get stronger, and because of that, her dragon and her best friend are dead. All because Dany chose to do the right thing and help the North. Not only that, but after learning about Jon’s parentage, she still saved his life twice. And now her selflessness is coming to bite her in the ass, because if she had let Jon die, there wouldn’t be people plotting to put him in her place.

While Dany has shown herself to be completely selfless, at great cost to herself, the Starks have done nothing of the sort. When it was their time to return the favor, they refused to make any self sacrifices, refused to give up on any of their ambitions. They wanted to use Dany for her resources, and then discard her when she wasn’t useful anymore. And now they are being asked to set aside their enmities in the name of making peace, but they refuse it and still struggle for power, and Sansa is actively trying to start a civil war.

Samwell Tarly asked Jon Snow this question, about Daenerys Targaryen: “You gave up your crown to save your people. Would she do the same?” And the answer is yes. She would. But the same can’t be said for the Starks. When asked to give up on the Northern crown for the good of their people, and to save all people of Westeros from another civil war, they refused it.

Show!Starks are evil, selfish, power hungry people. They don’t care about their people, only about their power. They are xenophobic. And they refuse to show any kindness or warmth or empathy to a woman that saved their lives, a woman that their brother loves (so they don’t even care about their brother). Show!Starks are the antithesis of Book!Starks. Book!Starks represent family and unity, honor and empathy, and they care about what really matters. They are the fire against the cold, because their love and goodness goes against the evil and indifference in the world. Show!Starks are the personification of the cold. They refuse to show kindness and empathy, and choose to play the game of thrones. They are the new Lannister, with their mentality of “she isn’t one of us”.

Daenerys might be going insane after all of the disrespect and traumas and unkindness she endured. But the truth is, while Daenerys might become a villain because of insanity after being pushed too far, the Starks are villains by choice. And that, in my opinion, is worse.

A little harsh maybe because I don’t classify Arya as being that bad, but other wise I think it’s on point. 

I agree with this completely. To me, the Starks--particularly Sansa--come across as the villains in this situation. Instead of uniting against Cersei for everyone's well-being, they want to be sitting on top even though Dany has shown them no ill will--quite the opposite. The only thing bittersweet I can see to the ending that seems to be developing here is that, after having rooted for the Starks to survive and prevail all these years, they end up taking down one of the best characters on the show who saved so many out of political interest--the same way the Lannisters annihilated their family and inflicted misery on them for no other reason than their own gain.

Edited May 8, 2019 by TheGreenKnight

[izabella]

Dany would have been the ruler of a Westeros filled with undead with the NK still alive if she hadn't combined forces with the North to fight them off.  She didn't do it just out of a political interest - she had to help save Westeros for there to even be a Westeros for her to rule. 

[Nashville]

So, in summation: in the GoT, there are no heroes - not aboveground, anyway.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Dany would have been the ruler of a Westeros filled with undead with the NK still alive if she hadn't combined forces with the North to fight them off.  She didn't do it just out of a political interest - she had to help save Westeros for there to even be a Westeros for her to rule. 

8.02 proved that the crisis was only a Northern crisis because all they ever needed was Arya and her ninja skills.

Worse case scenario - Arya doesn't survive to stab the NK, so what? Dany sits out the war in Dragonstone - a freaking island, and it's down to whether Cersei blinks first. If Westeros is overrun with zombies, Dany takes her army and goes back to her Empire in Essos. 

This repeated insistence on framing Dany's purely altruistic wish to save Westeros as greedy or political is false. 

The only people who were being greedy and territorial were the Starks. Jon came cup in hand for help and refused to pay the price to bend the knee. Sansa was still asking for Northern Independents while the AOTD was matching down their gates. Arya conceded that Dany's help was needed - but she still spits the xenophobic nonsense that "she's not one of us". Meanwhile, the pyres hadn't stopped burning before Sansa Stark was already plotting to murder Dany for basically existing. 

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

So, in summation: in the GoT, there are no heroes - not aboveground, anyway.

Or rather in this world, all heroes die. Which is what will be Dany's fate. The Starks that survived did so by becoming the villains of the story. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by ursula

[izabella]

20 minutes ago, ursula said:

8.02 proved that the crisis was only a Northern crisis because all they ever needed was Arya and her ninja skills.

Worse case scenario - Arya doesn't survive to stab the NK, so what? Dany sits out the war in Dragonstone - a freaking island, and it's down to whether Cersei blinks first. If Westeros is overrun with zombies, Dany takes her army and goes back to her Empire in Essos. 

Worst case scenario, NK would have gotten to Bran because Dany, her dragons, and her armies weren't there to hold of the undead armies long enough for Arya to kill the NK.  The NK killing Bran would wipe out all memory and history of man.  I'm not sure what that means, but the show told us it would be tragic.  I don't think we know whether Essos would be fee and clear of the NK and forever winter.  You freeze enough water and the NK can walk over there, eventually.

In any case, I believe Dany had multiple motives for fighting the undead.  One of them is because she wanted to do it for Jon because she loves him.  One is because the undead must be defeated for life to continue for her and her people.  One is political because Jon did bend the knee and she believed the North would be grateful for her help.  That doesn't make her less of a hero for throwing everything she had into it and risking her life and that of her dragons and people.

Edited May 8, 2019 by izabella

[ursula]

54 minutes ago, izabella said:

Worst case scenario, NK would have gotten to Bran because Dany, her dragons, and her armies weren't there to hold of the undead armies long enough for Arya to kill the NK.  The NK killing Bran would wipe out all memory and history of man.  I'm not sure what that means, but the show told us it would be tragic. 

Well you said it - it might mean the end of the world. Or absolutely nothing. We taught that dragonglass and dragon fire were essential to fight the NK. Turns out that they should have just raised money to hire a FM with Valyrian steel. 

What we do know is that the NK has proven a secondary concern to Cersei.In fact, the AOTD only became urgent because the wight hunt led to NK capturing Viserion and bringing down the Wall. If Dany's reply to Jon's request was, "I'm fighting a war, when I'm done and when you're ready to bend the knee, then we'll talk", everyone except Cersei would have been better off.

Edited May 8, 2019 by ursula

[glowbug]

8 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

If she were truly mad, she would never listen to any advisors and burn them when they failed her. Yet we saw Tyrion fail constantly and she still listened to him. Costing her a dragon and her best friend.

Dany continuing to listen to Tyrion is probably the best argument for her being mad. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? 😜

[GraceK]

A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.

I think that is gonna have a huge callback. Dany has lost so much..I think what Jon does next is imperative. Does he comfort her, and offer support? Or does he continue to back his viperous Stark family, and pull away from her?  They are trying so hard to push mad queen dany, but all she needs is some love and support and that’s why it’s not landing right. Her advisors are turning against her before she has done anything wrong, literally because she is upset and angry and expressed it. 🙄 Anyone who knows women knows she needs some comfort and love right now. If she doesn’t get it, then yeah. She will be pissed.  

[Lady S.]

17 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

You know it really would have been nice if, at the burnings/feast, Sansa had noticed Dany there looking heartbroken, lonely, and a bit angry that Jon was getting credit for all the stuff she did, and thought, "Oh wow, I know how that feels." 

Yeah, I know not all anti-Dany folks are Sansa stans but I will say it'd be a bit hypocritical to think Sansa was justified in saying Arya should be on her knees thanking Sansa (for writing a letter to a creep who owed her big time) while saying Dany is a narcissist for wanting a bit more credit for her personal sacrifices and feats on the battlefield.

Dany was needed at that battle but I also think Jon and Tyrion should have let her kill Cersei last season. Jon's "there's no time for that!" refrain didn't become true until Tyrion's dumbass wight hunt gave the Night King a dragon.

[Spartan Girl]

What really pissed me off about Arya and Sansa's "I'll never know her, she's not one of us" crap is THEY HAVEN'T EVEN TRIED TO GET TO KNOW HER.

When Tyrion tried to point out as much to Sansa, he just got her snotty "you're afraid of her." Which I don't think is completely true. Tyrion is probably more afraid of losing his position than anything else. But whatever he thinks, he's still supporting her and clearly still cares about her, if his reaction to Vary's implication that he'll have her killed is any indication.

[BooBear]

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

When Tyrion tried to point out as much to Sansa, he just got her snotty "you're afraid of her." Which I don't think is completely true. Tyrion is probably more afraid of losing his position than anything else. 

That was laughable. It also isn't even consistent with Dany's actions. When she got the unsullied she told them they could leave. She has always kept that promise. So if Tyrion wanted to leave she would let him go. More than anyone else on the show he is not afraid of her. 

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.

Absolutely, terrible for the evil doers in the world. Dany has, for most of the series, over and over again, asked for advice, received poor advice, taken matters into her own hands, and got stuff done.  More than anything else this episode I look forward to her doing things HER way and triumphing.  I want her to be *full stop* stop listening or even talking to her "advisors" and take reasonable and obvious steps. Such as (1) putting armor on the dragon, (2) using the dragon's full capabilities (diving from the sky too high for the ballistas) and going back up, and (3) take the iron throne without concern about what the people will think, until, she gets the throne and then explain to the people what happened. 

I would love it if she had called for Darrio and there was a surprise but that might be something there wasn't time for. 

I also look forward to Gray Worm winning the battle and becoming the new hand of the queen. 

[Meredith Quill]

15 hours ago, ursula said:

In fact, the AOTD only became urgent because the wight hunt led to NK capturing Viserion and bringing down the Wall. If Dany's reply to Jon's request was, "I'm fighting a war, when I'm done and when you're ready to bend the knee, then we'll talk", everyone except Cersei would have been better off.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. For all those who purport that Dany had a ^duty^ to fight the AOTD before dealing with Cersei, stating things like that as Protector of The Realm she deserves no platitudes for doing so and by implication, that Sansa and the North therefore, owe her nothing; no fealty, no loyalty, no gratitude. They miss this very salient point. If Dany hadn't heeded Jon aka The King in the North, in the first instance and stuck to her original plan when she first arrived, the NK wouldn't have even been able to breach the Wall on a dragon. Because there'd have been no need for a wight hunt in the first place as Cersei would already be dead. They could've na-na-boo-booed at the NK from atop the Wall.

Dany's fatal error was being too accommodating to Jon (with his pleas of 'there's no time for this') and by extension, the North. Everything that followed, all the dominos that fell after that can be traced back to that one - bad in hindsight - decision. Even after that, had she not done what she believed was the 'right thing' in going to save the suicide squad's asses, she still would've been able to deal with Cersei first without any danger posed to the North whatsoever.

Suffice to say, she didn't need to go North to save anyone from the AOTD because they were stuck behind the Wall until after the dumbass wight hunt happened, and that is what caused her downfall. Irony.

Tell me again why the North (Sansa included) owes her no fealty, gratitude, and respect (receiving some basic friendly overtures wasn't an unreasonable expectation either), when the King in the North not only set in motion the events that followed by his actions in the first instance but also promised her the North's fealty after she'd already committed to put his non-urgent (some could even argue 'unnecessary' as they had no reason - none - to believe the Wall would fail at the very reason for its existence) plan before her own. Y'know, the person who Varys now says of 'He best king, yo'.

Don't even get me started on Varys 'I serve the realm' Spiderman. The same person who in S1 was in cahoots with Illyrio as they actively worked to promote a Dothraki horde invading the 7K to put Viserys on the throne...because those Dothraki, especially under Viserys' command, wouldn't have pillaged or raped the smallfolk. Remember them, the ones Varys ^claims^ he serves, collateral damage sure didn't seem to be a problem to him then...but now it's ^everything^ - not hypocritical at all. Not to mention he chose to remain serving the actual mad king for years, despite the fact that even if he didn't want to risk Aerys' wrath by resigning, he always had the choice to slip away in the night. We've seen his disguises, he even alludes to it in show when he told Ned he travelled with a troop of mummers (actors) when he was younger. He stayed because he liked being in a powerful position, he enjoyed his power (remember his line to Melisandre in S7: "Give us common folk one taste of power, we're like the lion who tasted man. Nothing is ever so sweet again." ), that's who he is right there, so his whole 'I'm for the people' schtick is a smokescreen, it's self-delusional BS. He promoted and backed Dany until he realised she wasn't someone who he could easily manipulate, which is the exact reason he now turns away from her and looks to Jon because he believes Jon is weaker-willed. If we dived into book Varys that's a whole different story, but he's still a liar and a hypocrite, ahem; Kevan anyone?

[GraceK]

4 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. For all those who purport that Dany had a ^duty^ to fight the AOTD before dealing with Cersei, stating things like that as Protector of The Realm she deserves no platitudes for doing so and by implication, that Sansa and the North therefore, owe her nothing; no fealty, no loyalty, no gratitude. They miss this very salient point. If Dany hadn't heeded Jon aka The King in the North, in the first instance and stuck to her original plan when she first arrived, the NK wouldn't have even been able to breach the Wall on a dragon. Because there'd have been no need for a wight hunt in the first place as Cersei would already be dead. They could've na-na-boo-booed at the NK from atop the Wall.

Dany's fatal error was being too accommodating to Jon (with his pleas of 'there's no time for this') and by extension, the North. Everything that followed, all the dominos that fell after that can be traced back to that one - bad in hindsight - decision. Even after that, had she not done what she believed was the 'right thing' in going to save the suicide squad's asses, she still would've been able to deal with Cersei first without any danger posed to the North whatsoever.

Suffice to say, she didn't need to go North to save anyone from the AOTD because they were stuck behind the Wall until after the dumbass wight hunt happened, and that is what caused her downfall. Irony.

Tell me again why the North (Sansa included) owes her no fealty, gratitude, and respect (receiving some basic friendly overtures wasn't an unreasonable expectation either), when the King in the North not only set in motion the events that followed by his actions in the first instance but also promised her the North's fealty after she'd already committed to put his non-urgent (some could even argue 'unnecessary' as they had no reason - none - to believe the Wall would fail at the very reason for its existence) plan before her own. Y'know, the person who Varys now says of 'He best king, yo'.

Don't even get me started on Varys 'I serve the realm' Spiderman. The same person who in S1 was in cahoots with Illyrio as they actively worked to promote a Dothraki horde invading the 7K to put Viserys on the throne...because those Dothraki, especially under Viserys' command, wouldn't have pillaged or raped the smallfolk. Remember them, the ones Varys ^claims^ he serves, collateral damage sure didn't seem to be a problem to him then...but now it's ^everything^ - not hypocritical at all. Not to mention he chose to remain serving the actual mad king for years, despite the fact that even if he didn't want to risk Aerys' wrath by resigning, he always had the choice to slip away in the night. We've seen his disguises, he even alludes to it in show when he told Ned he travelled with a troop of mummers (actors) when he was younger. He stayed because he liked being in a powerful position, he enjoyed his power (remember his line to Melisandre in S7: "Give us common folk one taste of power, we're like the lion who tasted man. Nothing is ever so sweet again." ), that's who he is right there, so his whole 'I'm for the people' schtick is a smokescreen, it's self-delusional BS. He promoted and backed Dany until he realised she wasn't someone who he could easily manipulate, which is the exact reason he now turns away from her and looks to Jon because he believes Jon is weaker-willed. If we dived into book Varys that's a whole different story, but he's still a liar and a hypocrite, ahem; Kevan anyone?

::stands up and cheers:: all of this!!! Yes!!’ The hypocrisy is astounding . And now my girl is gonna suffer the most. Shes getting the Ned Stark treatment with none of the good edit.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Tell me again why the North (Sansa included) owes her no fealty, gratitude, and respect (receiving some basic friendly overtures wasn't an unreasonable expectation either), when the King in the North not only set in motion the events that followed by his actions in the first instance but also promised her the North's fealty after she'd already committed to put his non-urgent (some could even argue 'unnecessary' as they had no reason - none - to believe the Wall would fail at the very reason for its existence) plan before her own. Y'know, the person who Varys now says of 'He best king, yo'.

Does anybody honestly think Dany deserves *nothing*? That would be ridiculous. Of course she deserves gratitude and respect. Friendly personal overtures too, imo. Why would anyone not be grateful and respectful and friendly to someone who not only joined their fight but brought an army with them? (Sansa's chilliness has been called out as OTT by a number of characters as inappropriate.)

The sticking point seems to me to be about owing her fealty, The North does not feel they owe her fealty. They know they have to show it to her since Jon gave it to her, but they don't feel it and probably never will. That's not unreasonable. 

[Meredith Quill]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Does anybody honestly think Dany deserves *nothing*? That would be ridiculous. Of course she deserves gratitude and respect. Friendly personal overtures too, imo. Why would anyone not be grateful and respectful and friendly to someone who not only joined their fight but brought an army with them? (Sansa's chilliness has been called out as OTT by a number of characters as inappropriate.)

The sticking point seems to me to be about owing her fealty, The North does not feel they owe her fealty. They know they have to show it to her since Jon gave it to her, but they don't feel it and probably never will. That's not unreasonable. 

There has been much justifying of the North et al's dismissive treatment of Dany and her troops. I absolutely agree they don't have to feel it but they have to show it, however, that never happened. She was treated with icy disdain and barely concealed contempt and mistrust. The smart thing to do for anyone who had an agenda would've been to befriend the Dragon Queen and make that friendliness work to your advantage, no matter your true inner feelings. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

When all is said and done, it boils down to poor writing/plotting for all characters concerned. Sadly, the writing quality has suffered for a few seasons overall.

[ursula]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The sticking point seems to me to be about owing her fealty, The North does not feel they owe her fealty. They know they have to show it to her since Jon gave it to her, but they don't feel it and probably never will. That's not unreasonable. 

Isn't this basically what Dany said? Sansa (and Northern Lords in general) didn't have to like her but they had to respect her. 

Fealty isn't about feelings. Ned was disgusted with Robert at several points in his tenure-ship - from when he accepted the brutal murders of the Targaryen children, to when he insisted on sending assassins after Dany - but he still bent the knee and gave him the respect of King. 

[GraceK]

Another brilliant article.

https://www.thefandomentals.com/mad-queen-daenerys-misogyny/

Some highlights::

The majority of this episode was spent painting Dany in an unfavorable light. She was jealous of Jon during the celebration dinner, her plan to attack King’s Landing was (again) painted as unreasonable, and multiple other characters schemed to undermine or outright replace her. It’s clear the narrative wants us to think that Dany is losing her grip and becoming a violent tyrant. They talked about her as if she cares about nothing but the Iron Throne.

I guess we’re just forgetting about the previous episode? You know, the one where she put her ambitions on hold and risked everything to protect an ungrateful North from the White Walkers? Where her forces were put front and center to be slaughtered first and protect everyone else? It’s not like this is anything new, either. If Game of Thrones intended to paint Daenerys Targaryen as heading down a path towards obsessive ambition for the Iron Throne, it has failed miserably.

Ever since her arrival in Westeros, Dany has put her ambitions on hold to try and do the right thing. When Jon Snow came to her about the White Walkers, she had understandable skepticism. Ice zombies? Give me a break, right? But she came around, helped Jon with his incredibly stupid bro trip beyond the Wall, and lost a dragon to save him. In the face of this threat, rather than run back to try and take King’s Landing, she pledged herself to the fight against the White Walkers because it was the right thing to do. When she arrived in Winterfell this season, she took a backseat to Jon and fought for a people who treated her like crap from the second she arrived.

Her reward is a narrative twisting itself into pretzels to try and portray her badly.

Just look at the fact that it’s Varys and Tyrion delivering this “mad” narrative throughout the episode. The two advisors who have consistently given her advice making it harder and harder to win the Iron Throne. Episode 4 wants us to consider that because Daenerys is not listening to these two men, we’re supposed to think she’s losing it.

Let’s just ignore the utter madness of these two characters delivering this narrative for now. Just take a look at the decisions they’ve encouraged since Dany arrived in Westeros in season 7. They have consistently spoken against Dany simply storming King’s Landing. The quickest, easiest way for her to actually win. Where did this advice lead her? To lose the Ironborn. To the Unsullied marching to Casterly Rock for nothing. She has consistently come out worse for listening to these two and their terrible advice. It’s so bad people believed Tyrion was working for Cersei because they couldn’t logically explain his advice otherwise.

Now we’re supposed to believe Daenerys is becoming her father since she won’t listen to these two? They are the voices through which we are exposed to doubts about Dany’s sanity? They are the ones who drive this plot forward? Because of them, tens of thousands have died and will die moving forward that would not have if they did not stand in the way of Dany attacking King’s Landing to begin with.

And now let’s not ignore what these two men have been. Varys is responsible for convincing Aerys Targaryen to open his gates for Tywin’s army, leading to the brutal sack of King’s Landing that all but ended Robert’s Rebellion. He helped engineer the War of the 5 Kings. Tyrion used wildfire on Stannis’s fleet and has treated many people cruelly. These two men are nothing remotely resembling a moral authority. Now they both oppose Dany doing one of the most basic aspects of medieval warfare by conquering an enemy city?

We’re supposed to view Daenerys Targaryen as suddenly losing control and becoming another mad Targaryen for exactly the same things this show has celebrated in its male characters. It’s openly sexist and misogynistic.  Having participated in the fandom conversations about this, it only confirmed it for me. Dany is being viewed as bad for hypocritical reasons.

Presumably, the thing that will make everyone view Dany as having “gone mad” is the burning of King’s Landing. In her anger, she will unleash Drogon and her army to take the city. Civilians will die. Somehow this will be viewed by other characters as the worst thing ever, they will betray her, and she will find out and probably kill more of them. The narrative will tell us Dany is “crazy” for executing whoever she does. Except she’ll end up executing traitors! Let’s say she finds out what Varys and Tyrion are up to. How is she not justified to execute two men openly plotting to replace and possibly kill her?

All throughout this show, we’ve seen characters do awful things in the name of revenge or to end wars. Jon hanged a child who betrayed him and beheaded Janos Slynt for disobeying him. Arya eliminated House Frey and openly threatened to murder and skin her sister. Jaime was willing to trebuchet Edmure Tully’s child. Over and over this show has romanticized revenge and violence and asked the audience to cheer it.

Dany is no different and has done terrible things. She did burn Mirri Maz Duur. She did slaughter Astapor in brutal fashion. The crucifixion of the Meereenese slave masters is pretty messed up. Daenerys Targaryen has an undeniable mean streak that has led her to do brutal things.

Except the narrative has always asked us to cheer for her when she does these things. Asking us to think they were signs of possible madness now simply doesn’t add up.

Viewing this as madness also completely ignores the motivations behind Dany’s actions. Reasons don’t always excuse terrible things but her motivations are part of the larger pattern of who she is and what she wants. Consistently, she fights to help people. Her experiences of abuse by her brother and slavery with the Dothraki drove her to stop it from happening to others. Her entire reason for attacking Slaver’s Bay is because she can’t turn a blind eye to the suffering of those cities. What makes Daenerys a complex, engaging character is the way her motivations are worth cheering but her actions don’t always line up the same way. That’s true of everyone in both A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones.

It’s also a complexity increasingly lost as Thrones has progressed.

To portray Daenerys as obsessively desirable for the Iron Throne simply doesn’t line up with her actions. It doesn’t even line up with her actions since arriving in Westeros. Yes, she wants the throne and wants it immediately. What does she actually do, though? She puts it all on hold and risks her ability to defeat Cersei by helping defeat the White Walkers. She even agrees to a plan that basically sacrifices her forces in order to preserve the Northern forces.

People cite Dany’s ambition for the throne and her past cruel actions as setup for the Mad Queen. They say these actions hint at what she would eventually become. Yet where are these fans when Tywin is destroying two Houses to the point of infamous songs, or having his armies rape and plunder King’s Landing because of a grudge against Aerys? Tywin is considered a “cool, calm, pragmatic” person for his actions, where Dany is considered overly emotional and on the path to madness.

Of course, the most obvious example of this involves Jon and Daenerys. In both the books and the show, there are obvious parallels between the journeys these two take. It’s the point of the series in a way, the song of Ice and Fire, Dany and Jon and the journeys which lead them to where they are now. They go through similar experiences and create similar loyalties among disparate groups.

Yet one is the selfless, humble person who will make a good king and the other is “going mad.” Jon has ignored his advisors just as often. He’s committed his own cruel acts. He held onto his crown last season just as bitterly as Dany is now. She was the one who committed to him before he bent the knee to her, even if the narrative has now completely retconned this to make him look better. Even Sansa, who is now the “smartest person” on the show, is pushing Jon as the best candidate. Maybe you can rationalize it as her using Jon for her own motives, but it’s still part of the episode’s pattern of pushing Jon as the better candidate.

It’s a classic case of desperately trying to find fault in an ambitious, driven woman who doesn’t bury her thoughts and emotions deep, and the show is playing it far too straight. There is room for the characters to portray the sexism of Westeros society without the narrative backing them up. That’s not what’s happening here. Game of Throneshas consistently portrayed Jon as its good guy. This season, as previously mentioned, has outright rewritten the events of the season 7 finale in order to make him look better and Daenerys look worse. Tyrion has always been a “voice of reason” on the show and he is turning against her.

Just look at the conversation between Varys and Tyrion. They basically discuss how to tame Daenerys. Varys dismisses the idea of a marriage between Jon and Dany because Dany is “too strong” for him. THAT IS SEXIST. It would be one thing if the show called Varys out on this but Tyrion does not.

Game of Thrones isn’t telling its audience that the characters are being sexist and we should question the idea of Dany being mad. It’s telling its story so that we also think Dany is going mad. And she almost certainly will.

T

Game of Thrones has tossed aside everything that defines Daenerys Targaryen in service of a poorly conceived madness plot with no real buildup, directly contradicting events not just from the past, but from this very season. They’ve contorted the narrative to the point that critics and fans are finally recognizing the absurdity of it all. And at its heart is the same sexism we’ve seen for years.

Edited May 9, 2019 by GraceK

[ursula]

5 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Don't even get me started on Varys 'I serve the realm' Spiderman. The same person who in S1 was in cahoots with Illyrio as they actively worked to promote a Dothraki horde invading the 7K to put Viserys on the throne...because those Dothraki, especially under Viserys' command, wouldn't have pillaged or raped the smallfolk. Remember them, the ones Varys ^claims^ he serves, collateral damage sure didn't seem to be a problem to him then...but now it's ^everything^ - not hypocritical at all. Not to mention he chose to remain serving the actual mad king for years, despite the fact that even if he didn't want to risk Aerys' wrath by resigning, he always had the choice to slip away in the night. We've seen his disguises, he even alludes to it in show when he told Ned he travelled with a troop of mummers (actors) when he was younger. He stayed because he liked being in a powerful position, he enjoyed his power (remember his line to Melisandre in S7: "Give us common folk one taste of power, we're like the lion who tasted man. Nothing is ever so sweet again." ), that's who he is right there, so his whole 'I'm for the people' schtick is a smokescreen, it's self-delusional BS.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a smokescreen for the writers as well because it would be so easy for someone to call him on this bullshit. By painting Varys as a For The People saint, Dany looks like a tyrant who's persecuting the People's proxy.