Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen: The Breaker Of Chains, Mother Of Dragons Etc

[Sakura12]

In the book Aerys declared Viseyrs the true heir over Rhaegar, I don't think that happened on the show. If it did that would delegitimize Jon's claim. 

Either way the show is having everyone declare Dany mad when she hasn't done anything yet. Which is typical in a Male dominated society. You don't like what the woman is saying, declare her mad and throw her away. We've seen Dany take out her enemies just like everyone else. She just has access to a better weapon. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

He didn't blab. It was his secret to tell.

She also didn't order him as Queen to keep it a secret, she begged him not to tell. 

And that's why she'd feel betrayed, even if it was his secret to tell: she begged him not to tell, he did, and everything she thought would happen is happening.

[Sakura12]

The fact that she didn't order him as Queen is also showing her as not being mad. She asked him a friend/lover/Aunt not to tell.  Him telling is a betrayal. And now everything she told him would happen is coming true. 

[Bianca Castafiore]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

The fact that she didn't order him as Queen is also showing her as not being mad. She asked him a friend/lover/Aunt not to tell.  Him telling is a betrayal. And now everything she told him would happen is coming true. 

Yeah, if we choose to ignore her last phrase/stare...

[BooBear]

28 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany mad when she hasn't done anything yet. Which is typical in a Male dominated society. You don't like what the woman is saying, declare her mad and throw her away. We've seen Dany take out her enemies just like everyone else. She just has access to a better weapon. 

But assuming she does something, Darrio called it Dany is a natural conqueror. When a man is a conqueror he is a great leader. A woman is "CRAAZZZYYYY".  Ironically the best thing for this world likely would be Jon, Tyrion and Dany all working together. Jon would be the wisdom, Tyrion the day to day game playing, and Dany would be the muscle. 

I would like people to define what exactly is "crazy" for Dany here. If she takes out Cerci and a small amount of innocents.. I think that is fine. It is a necessary evil.  If she lines up every person in kings landing to burn them alive... yeh that would be crazy. 

Dany cannot wait forever to get Cerci out. No only because then Cerci wins but Dany risks losing allies and giving Cerci time to come up with ways to defeat her.  

[rmontro]

The funniest thing about that Houston Rockets clip is the coffee cup.  🙂  I can't believe all the references to that stupid coffee cup I've seen.

That clip also reminds me that the show hasn't gone through the list of Daenerys' titles this season.  That alone shows how rushed things are!

[Spartan Girl]

The writers may be screwing Dany over, but at least she's getting her proper dues from sports teams and their mascots! 😂😂😂

[rmontro]

The funniest scene in the whole series IMO is when Missandei introduced Daenerys with all her titles to Jon Snow.  And Davos said:

"This is Jon Snow......   He's King in the North".

[Andromeda]

8 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

In the book Aerys declared Viseyrs the true heir over Rhaegar, I don't think that happened on the show. If it did that would delegitimize Jon's claim. 

Either way the show is having everyone declare Dany mad when she hasn't done anything yet. Which is typical in a Male dominated society. You don't like what the woman is saying, declare her mad and throw her away. We've seen Dany take out her enemies just like everyone else. She just has access to a better weapon. 

This is the best article about what's happening with the show re: Dany. It uses the same phrase I thought of — bait and switch. 

Game of Thrones is spending its last hours ruining Daenerys Targaryen

The article doesn't deal with the inherent sexism of turning a strong woman into a mentally unstable maniac overnight, but you can bet that will be a discussion if they actually go that route. 

Women once had their own mental disease, called hysteria. It was super sexist, with such a broad definition any man could use it to have their wife put in a nut house. "Female hysteria was once a common medical diagnosis for women. ... The American Psychiatric Association dropped the term hysteria in 1952. Even though it was categorized as a disease, hysteria's symptoms were synonymous with normal functioning female sexuality." (hysteria is from a Greek word for uterus).

So yeah, it's a sore spot for women generally.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Andromeda
hysteria

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

This is the best article about what's happening with the show re: Dany. It uses the same phrase I thought of — bait and switch. 

Good article.  Total bait and switch.

Even now, Dany is taking the more peaceful approach suggested to her by her advisors - against her own better instincts.  In the latest scene they went to King's Landing to give diplomacy a chance, only to see MIssandei beheaded in front of them.

Side note:  I love Peter Dinklage's acting in that scene, as he begs for peace:  "Qyburn....help me".

[Umbelina]

I just wanted to mention that I think the casting was so incredible perfect when they chose Emilia Clarke as Dany.  She looked, and acted, exactly as I pictured this character, other than not having purple eyes that is.

I've loved her portrayal of this iconic figure, and have, since the beginning.  I also like that I immediately "bought" her as Dany.

[BooBear]

20 hours ago, Andromeda said:

This is the best article about what's happening with the show re: Dany. It uses the same phrase I thought of — bait and switch. 

Game of Thrones is spending its last hours ruining Daenerys Targaryen

The article doesn't deal with the inherent sexism of turning a strong woman into a mentally unstable maniac overnight, but you can bet that will be a discussion if they actually go that route. 

Right on. It is even more sexist in that the show seems to want to back Jon even though he is a male Targaryen. The last two (or maybe three) male Targs were crazy. I hope D&D and HBO feel the full backlash of twitter for their sexist pathetic fanfic that they filmed. 

[Snowball II]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I just wanted to mention that I think the casting was so incredible perfect when they chose Emilia Clarke as Dany.  She looked, and acted, exactly as I pictured this character, other than not having purple eyes that is.

I've loved her portrayal of this iconic figure, and have, since the beginning.  I also like that I immediately "bought" her as Dany.

I agree.  I remember seeing the first actress they thought about casting as Dany, and I'm so glad they didn't go with their first choice.  I'm sure the actress was fine (can't remember her name), but she had that bland, nondescript look to her, where Emilia was much more expressive.  They nailed it.

[jeansheridan]

So one of the toughest women on the show, Lady Oleanna, advised Dany to BE a dragon. When she followed through she was successful. Burning the Tarlys was a misstep but even papa Tarly seemed down with it. He just didn't think his son would be prepared to follow him. And I think Dany honored Dickon by giving him a choice. If he had been dragged away to a cell...alive but unhappy and disrespected. 

And actually, Dany took great loses at Winterfell but she won. Once again she was a dragon and did her best. I am still angry almost no one cheered her riding into battle. I guess she blew the plan but so has Jon so many times.

I never especially loved Dany as written  but I do adore Emilia Clark and her charisma won me over. I want Daario to come back and adore her again and for her to rule her own way. 

[Spartan Girl]

Emilia went through two aeyneurisms for THIS?!

I must say though, her acting when Jon rejected her was very well done. You could really feel her heart break for the millionth time when he pulled away, then her steely resolve: "All right. Let it be fear."

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I never especially loved Dany as written  but I do adore Emilia Clark and her charisma won me over. I want Daario to come back and adore her again and for her to rule her own way. 

As much as I like the Daenerys character, I never really liked her penchant for bad boys lol.  It looked like she had grown out of it when she went after Jon Snow, but apparently Jon wasn't down with the incest.

[Umbelina]

Do we add "mass murdered of innocents" to her many titles now?

[ShellsandCheese]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Do we add "mass murdered of innocents" to her many titles now?

Sure, why not. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Do we add "mass murdered of innocents" to her many titles now?

How about "Burner of Eunuchs"?  🙂

[ShellsandCheese]

She definitely needs an acronym behind her name. I’d go with GSD: Gets Shit Done. 😂 

Personally, I think Drogon needs a title, I’m thinking: 

Go Big or Go Home

Edited May 13, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[rmontro]

5 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

She definitely needs an acronym behind her name. I’d go with GSD: Gets Shit Done. 😂 

She could do great work in home demolition.

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

She definitely needs an acronym behind her name. I’d go with GSD: Gets Shit Done. 😂 

Personally, I think Drogon needs a title, I’m thinking: 

Go Big or Go Home

Drogon is an MVP. I love that boy. He does his namesake proud 😊

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Do we add "mass murdered of innocents" to her many titles now?

I'm still confused as to why she laid waste to King's Landing. Queen of Ashes indeed. There was no need to kill everyone. And, even if she really really wanted to kill Cersei (which, hey, I feel you, Dany), why not just fly to the Red Keep and take her out there? What was the point of killing everyone?

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

I'm still confused as to why she laid waste to King's Landing. Queen of Ashes indeed. There was no need to kill everyone. And, even if she really really wanted to kill Cersei (which, hey, I feel you, Dany), why not just fly to the Red Keep and take her out there? What was the point of killing everyone?

She's lost everything.  Her best friend, her best and most loyal advisor/guard (Jorah,)  TWO dragons, her lover, having people fawn over her and cheer her, her dream of being welcomed with love and flowers, her last two hands just betrayed her, 1/2 of her armies were killed (though it sure didn't look like it.)

She chose violence, you could see her make the decision as she sat on Drogon and heard the bells.  She chose fire and blood and making a HUGE impression, she chose FEAR, she was pissed and used her nukes.

There was a much better post (actually a few of them) that explained who Dany is, who she always was, and why this happened.  It was bound to happen after all that work to get to Westeros, her right to rule there, and almost no one even likes her.

[Hana Chan]

Back in my uni days, I was a political science major. In one of my classes, we were discussing Stalin and the Holodomor (the famine in the Ukraine) and my professor asked if any of us could understand why Stalin would allow (and make worse) a famine. I was one of the few who raised my hand and the reasons I gave were 1) it kills off a lot of his enemies and 2) those that remain were too demoralized and focused on their own survival to keep causing him trouble.

Dany, IMO, has crossed that same line.

The destruction of King's Landing had nothing to do with gaining the throne. The battle had already been won and the city had surrendered. It would not have taken much to capture the Red Keep and Cersei. But when Dany had told Jon that she would never be loved by the people of Westeros and had chosen to rule by fear, the writing was on the wall that she would go down this path. Killing the civilians and surrendered soldiers was about sending a message to all of Westeros that she would not hesitate to do this to any who defied her.

And I'm going to argue that this wasn't a huge surprise. Dany has always had the penchant for cruelty, but it often got excused because her targets were often totally unsympathetic figures. It's easy to excuse the killing of slavers or the Dothraki leaders since they were terrible people, but it was setting the stage for her to use that same terror on people who might not be so deserving. 

I'm also going to argue that this wasn't Dany going "mad". This was cold and calculated. The rest of the world might see her actions as "mad", but it was unquestionably very deliberate and premeditated. And again, not totally out of line with the character development that she's been undergoing since the end of season 1.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Hana Chan

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

I'm also going to argue that this wasn't Dany going "mad". This was cold and calculated. The rest of the world might see her actions as "mad", but it was unquestionably very deliberate and premeditated. And again, not totally out of line with the character development that she's been undergoing since the end of season 1.

I like your analysis. She actually said to Jon after burning the Tarlys that she now had fewer enemies. So yeah, once again she went for fewer enemies. 

I don't think she is insane. Or impulsive. I think she gave herself a moment to consider when she heard those bells to really decide. And when Cercei was watching her decide, Cercei knew. That pained smile. She knew it was hopeless.

I also want to give Dany some credit for using Drogon so effectively against the weapons. Using his speed to confuse the scorpion shooters mounted on the walls was smart. They were too heavy to pivot fast. She did get lucky against the Iron Fleet. But again, using the sun against them, understanding Drogon's skills, her own willingness to fly through a broken gate with stone flying. Just cool. She wields him like Arya carries Needle.

[DigitalCount]

She also flew higher in the sky and came down from basically on top of them, so as to obscure her descent with the brightness of the sun.

[GraceK]

So, after watching it again, I came to my own personal conclusion. You can feel free to disagree of course.  I will always love her, and I am personally heartbroken. Many people have been saying this was her endgame for years and I have been staunchly defending her, and you know what? I have no regrets. I may have been wrong, but I feel she was gaslighted and pushed into this. It didn’t have to be this way. Watching a woman genuinely try to do good, save so many people , come North and put her life on the line to help save the world, she’s a hero. For two seasons we watched her listen to everything her advisors said with the exception of the Tarleys, and this sudden narrative that she’s insane isn’t worthy. She has one feast where she feels isolated and depressed because her friend died and she’s insecure and Varys immediately plots against  her .  Jon Snow, the man she loves offers her no comfort, just platitudes of “ my queen’” , her best friend dies, her child dies...anyway, her descent into madness is a self fulfilling prophecy that could have been avoided. But I digress!

That moment on Drogon, when the bells rang for surrender, and she almost started to cry, and she’s looking at the red keep, I feel like what made her lose it was this pent up rage. She won so easily. This shit could have been over years ago. And she realizes this. She realizes how much she has lost, and suffered, in pursuit of gaining back her family seat, and it was so easy to get it! And she’s enraged . It’s not enough anymore, they have to suffer like  she has suffered. These people don’t even want her there, and she saved them, and she lost so much saving them, and they despise her and rather have Jon. And she’s like, fuck it. And she just loses it. It’s terrible but I almost understand it. And Emilia really killed it. She really has been killing it this season. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by GraceK

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Stalin and the Holodomor (the famine in the Ukraine) and

Stalin is a good analog for Dany. He wanted new leadership, helped fight a great evil, but ultimately was evil himself. And have you seen pics of a young Stalin? A total hipster dream. 

On the other hand, and this comparison makes me uncomfortable as an American, you have the example of Hiroshima. Total destruction followed by massive investment and a normalization of relations with America calling the shots. But Japan endures and I think thrives? I haven't been there but it's not a burned out Mad Max hell hole. 

Which way will Dany go?

[Sakura12]

They all thought of her as the foreign invader so that is what she became. She brought the Essos vengeance to Westeros. Her Unsullied and Dorthaki were more than happy to follow their Queen. 

I know Dany wouldn't be The Queen, I expected that. I just wanted it to be written well and make sense. This was so rushed and OOC. Dany has killed her enemies as has most of the other characters.

When Sansa murdered her abuser Ramsey with hounds and watched and smiled that was justice. When Dany watched her abusive brother get murdered by her husband, she didn't smile or gloat. But she's cruel while Sansa's a hero. Arya killed the Freys and fed them to their father, then killed him for revenge. She's another hero, when Dany kills slave owners for killing children she's cruel and going mad. Because those are some of the excuses I've seen for proof that Dany was always mad and cruel.  The only difference is Dany has access to stronger weapon than a sword or hounds. 

Drogon is Dany's sword so she is passing the sentence and swinging the sword. With a sword like we saw with Theon can be painful if you don't swing hard enough. I imagine getting dragon fire pointed straight at you is a pretty quick death. It becomes painful if you get the fire as it comes down like we saw in the last episode. Which is the only time Dany has unleashed a cruel punishment against anyone not during a battle. 

For me this was Dany burning the show down. They ruined not only her character, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie and Brieanne have been ruined as well just for them to get to this point. So for me go ahead and Dracarys, Dany. I'm sure you'll her stabbed in the back by one of the Super Starks in the finale. 

[Hana Chan]

11 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

On the other hand, and this comparison makes me uncomfortable as an American, you have the example of Hiroshima. Total destruction followed by massive investment and a normalization of relations with America calling the shots. But Japan endures and I think thrives? I haven't been there but it's not a burned out Mad Max hell hole. 

As an American, I'll be the first to argue that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, at best, questionable. Yes, they were horrific enough to prevent what would have been a costly land invasion of Japan (that would have been brutal on the civilian population and would have cost numerous lives on both sides. But on the other hand, the victims of these bombings were, for the most part, civilians. I've been to Japan and it's a pretty amazing country and the people I met there were extremely kind and generous to me, but I also recognize the atrocities that were committed during WW2. It's understandable why the decisions to use the atomic bombs were made.

It's unfortunate that Dany crossed this line because she could have been a good ruler. That will be the tragedy of her story. She made a deliberate decision to attack in a manner where massive civilian casualties were inevitable. I'll even argue that she deliberately targeted the civilians of KL because they sought Cersei's protection. By any standard, what she did would be considered a war crime and no matter what Cersei or her soldiers did, the civilians did not deserve what happened.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Hana Chan

[Sakura12]

15 minutes ago, GraceK said:

That moment on Drogon, when the bells rang for surrender, and she almost started to cry, and she’s looking at the red keep, I feel like what made her lose it was this pent up rage. She won so easily. This shit could have been over years ago. And she realizes this. She realizes how much she has lost, and suffered, in pursuit of gaining back her family seat, and it was so easy to get it! And she’s enraged 

This. Dany saw how easily she could've taken KL when she had trusted advisors in Jorah and Missendei, two full armies, 3 dragons, an armada and allies in the the Queen of thrones and Yara Greyjoy. It would've been over in seconds. Instead she listened to Tyrion and lost both advisors, most of her army, 2 dragons and all her allies. And still managed to take KL in about 20 minutes. If that is what she was crying about and angry about. I don't blame her for going psycho. 

I also wouldn't blame her if she thinks Tyrion was actively working against her. We know he wasn't, but it can really look that way. And Dany is done giving a fuck. 

None of them know about Dany's immunity to fire, I want them to try to burn her first as revenge for what she did and have her walk out of the fire with a smile on her face. I want her her to sell the insanity plea and have one last dragon moment with her before she's stabbed by one of the Super Starks. 

[GraceK]

28 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

This. Dany saw how easily she could've taken KL when she had trusted advisors in Jorah and Missendei, two full armies, 3 dragons, an armada and allies in the the Queen of thrones and Yara Greyjoy. It would've been over in seconds. Instead she listened to Tyrion and lost both advisors, most of her army, 2 dragons and all her allies. And still managed to take KL in about 20 minutes. If that is what she was crying about and angry about. I don't blame her for going psycho. 

I also wouldn't blame her if she thinks Tyrion was actively working against her. We know he wasn't, but it can really look that way. And Dany is done giving a fuck. 

None of them know about Dany's immunity to fire, I want them to try to burn her first as revenge for what she did and have her walk out of the fire with a smile on her face. I want her her to sell the insanity plea and have one last dragon moment with her before she's stabbed by one of the Super Starks. 

Exactly. I felt exactly what she was going through up there.  She knows on some level she will never be loved by these people, even after she helped save them from the NK and the AOTD. She saw that first hand in the North. She’s looking at the castle her family built, that by rights should have been her home, and all that she has lost to gain it back, and that smug bitch Cersei standing there and all these people who hate her down below, fighting to keep Cersei in power. It’s almost like , she wants to purge this city and start new. 

What upsets me is that they didn’t build up to it. I understand her, I can see it, but not in less than a season. The Dany we have seen wouldn’t kill children. It’s not earned. But whatever.  I’m happy it wasn’t the Dothraki raping, it was the Northerners!!!’ They were savage as fuck! At least D and D had some self awareness left ! 😂😂😂

also, anyone else feel like Drogon was inwardly screaming “ And this is for my brothers!!!!!” As he was raining down fire? 🤣

All in all, I’m pissed that Cersei got off scot free. She got to die soothed by her love, rather tenderly. And she’s the cause of all this misery really. I know Dany is responsible for her own choices ultimately, but in the grand scheme, Cersei had  a big hand in the downfall of Kings Landing. She didn’t have to murder Missendei. That was pure spite . She pushed a good person too far, she did so much evil over the years, and too see where Dany ended up just to defeat her....it’s like Cersei won. And I hate it. The walls crumbling down around her is a perfect metaphor...but it sucks. 😢 

anyone else see a Anakin Skywalker comparison? Slightly?

Edited May 13, 2019 by GraceK

[Couver]

38 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They all thought of her as the foreign invader so that is what she became. She brought the Essos vengeance to Westeros. Her Unsullied and Dorthaki were more than happy to follow their Queen. 

I know Dany wouldn't be The Queen, I expected that. I just wanted it to be written well and make sense. This was so rushed and OOC. Dany has killed her enemies as has most of the other characters.

When Sansa murdered her abuser Ramsey with hounds and watched and smiled that was justice. When Dany watched her abusive brother get murdered by her husband, she didn't smile or gloat. But she's cruel while Sansa's a hero. Arya killed the Freys and fed them to their father, then killed him for revenge. She's another hero, when Dany kills slave owners for killing children she's cruel and going mad. Because those are some of the excuses I've seen for proof that Dany was always mad and cruel.  The only difference is Dany has access to stronger weapon than a sword or hounds. 

Drogon is Dany's sword so she is passing the sentence and swinging the sword. With a sword like we saw with Theon can be painful if you don't swing hard enough. I imagine getting dragon fire pointed straight at you is a pretty quick death. It becomes painful if you get the fire as it comes down like we saw in the last episode. Which is the only time Dany has unleashed a cruel punishment against anyone not during a battle. 

For me this was Dany burning the show down. They ruined not only her character, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie and Brieanne have been ruined as well just for them to get to this point. So for me go ahead and Dracarys, Dany. I'm sure you'll her stabbed in the back by one of the Super Starks in the finale. 

I think the dragons were always an issue for detractors of the character. Because they are so powerful and because the story does try and draw parallels between them and WMDs.

One of my problems with this seasons narratives for Dany is that this show has dealt with revenge, and pain and death so much that what she did this past episode is just par for the course. So many characters have killed for revenge, for love, during war etc. This just feels like more of the same. Narratively they are showing the fall out (dead civilians). But obviously that's happened before. Civilians undoubtedly died during the take back of Winterfell from the Starks who like Dany were claiming a birthright. Or during the war to free Ned etc. But the perspective the narrative showed us was different.

Since the show is ending with Dany as the villain it has to sell her crimes as worse. For me the optics are just bad because there is a degree of sexism to it (just my opinion).

I've made my peace with it though and am very glad the show ended for me with 8x3. That is actually a really nice episode to wrap this series on.

I will check out the final episode if Drogon gets to ride of into the sunset though. But I highly doubt it. There is no way someone gets near his mother and kills her if he's still alive 😥

[Sakura12]

Dany should really keep Drogon with her at all times. She can go with him when he need to feed or fly. Then she can sit it front of him and have a real dragon throne. Lol

But she'll probably be alone because she has to be stupid to let someone get close enough to kill her. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Sakura12

[GraceK]

14 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany should really keep Drogon with her at all times. She can go with him when he need to feed or fly. Then she can sit it front of him and have a real dragon throne. Lol

But she'll probably be alone because she has to be stupid to let someone get close enough to kill her. 

That’s why Jon will be the one, because she “ loves” him. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️ He will be able to get close to her. And it will be horrible, because the last person on earth she trusts will kill her. I told my husband last night that I actually love Jaime Lannister more than Jon, and I never thought that would happen. Jon has been such a non entity for the past 2 seasons it’s like he’s a shadow. And his relationship with Dany has sucked. She sells it more than he does. At least Jaime loved Cersei to the end, no matter what she did.  And he would never kill her, and died with her . Jon’s that’s passive idiot who will let her do things and not stop them, but then kill for it later 🙄 He’s worthless . Kit Harington has been phoning it all season basically.

i mean, you can’t comfort her? Her friend has been murdered by Cersei, and you can’t hug her? You can’t talk to her? Try to be there for her? Offer support and advice and show you care? He’s like a wooden statue when he’s with her, no wonder she thinks he doesn’t give a shit. He doesn’t clearly, no matter what he says.  Dude, your dad was be headed too. In the same way, by a Lannister! Rickon died in front of you! You know exactly how she feels! You can’t even be a friend apparently. Geez he’s an empty robot. 

Danys whole story on rewatch is like an epic tragedy. I wish Jon stayed dead.

as bad as Tyrion’s advice as been, I had no doubt he loves her. His face this episode was tragic. It’s like his dream died. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by GraceK

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

So, after watching it again, I came to my own personal conclusion. You can feel free to disagree of course.  I will always love her, and I am personally heartbroken. Many people have been saying this was her endgame for years and I have been staunchly defending her, and you know what? I have no regrets. I may have been wrong, but I feel she was gaslighted and pushed into this. It didn’t have to be this way. Watching a woman genuinely try to do good, save so many people , come North and put her life on the line to help save the world, she’s a hero. For two seasons we watched her listen to everything her advisors said with the exception of the Tarleys, and this sudden narrative that she’s insane isn’t worthy. She has one feast where she feels isolated and depressed because her friend died and she’s insecure and Varys immediately plots against  her .  Jon Snow, the man she loves offers her no comfort, just platitudes of “ my queen’” , her best friend dies, her child dies...anyway, her descent into madness is a self fulfilling prophecy that could have been avoided. But I digress!

That moment on Drogon, when the bells rang for surrender, and she almost started to cry, and she’s looking at the red keep, I feel like what made her lose it was this pent up rage. She won so easily. This shit could have been over years ago. And she realizes this. She realizes how much she has lost, and suffered, in pursuit of gaining back her family seat, and it was so easy to get it! And she’s enraged . It’s not enough anymore, they have to suffer like  she has suffered. These people don’t even want her there, and she saved them, and she lost so much saving them, and they despise her and rather have Jon. And she’s like, fuck it. And she just loses it. It’s terrible but I almost understand it. And Emilia really killed it. She really has been killing it this season. 

I agree pretty much. 

The other thing is that Dany was being sold a false bill of goods all the way through. At the very beginning she was being fed stories by Viserys about how the commons were saying secret prayers for the return of the Targs and sewing dragon banners, and secretly hated the usurpers. And despite Jorah telling her that "the common people pray for rain, health and a summer that never ends, they don't care what games the high lords play," I think a part of her believed that, and that belief was only reinforced with how relatively easy it was to win the adoration of the former slaves in Slavers Bay. 

Sure she could play off the coldness of the Northerners. They have always been a frosty group (all those puns intended) and Jon even warned her that they don't take kindly to outsiders. 

But I think a part of her expected the commons in King's Landing, the city her ancestor built, to see the dragon above the city and turn on the Lannisters, and instead they went to the Lannisters for protection. It was just another reinforcement that she will not find love here, only fear. 

33 minutes ago, GraceK said:

anyone else see a Anakin Skywalker comparison? Slightly?

Anakin definitely has aspects of Dany. He's been told he's special, and he may the most powerful person in the galaxy and that breeds entitlement in him, and he's got that same simmering anger inside. 

But Anakin was essentially betrayed by the tenets of the Jedi, not the Jedi themselves. They told him that attachments were wrong, that emotions were wrong, that love was wrong. And when he got those things and liked them, he felt ashamed of them, and isolated himself. That made him vulnerable to corruption. The tragedy of the Jedi is that if they had told Anakin that it's ok to talk about your feelings (and have feelings) instead of burying them deep he may have gone to them for aid instead of the Emperor. 

Conversely Dany doesn't feel like any of those things are wrong, and seeks them out actively. She wants to feel a connection to her homeland, the admiration of her advisors, the love of her people and the love of Jon. But she doesn't get those, not because they are wrong (well, Jon might feel that his love for Dany is wrong, but Dany doesn't so it's a moot point,) but because no one will give them to her, and when someone does, they die. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[ursula]

33 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

The other thing is that Dany was being sold a false bill of goods all the way through. At the very beginning she was being fed stories by Viserys about how the commons were saying secret prayers for the return of the Targs and sewing dragon banners, and secretly hated the usurpers. And despite Jorah telling her that "the common people pray for rain, health and a summer that never ends, they don't care what games the high lords play," I think a part of her believed that, and that belief was only reinforced with how relatively easy it was to win the adoration of the former slaves in Slavers Bay. 

I mean guys, can we accept how unrealistic it is that the smallfolk love Cersei? She burnt down a very popular Pope, the Vatican and their beloved Queen Marg. And that's not even considering the Walk of Shame, which while extremely sexist and disgusting, was still a humiliating punishment that they forced Cersei to undergo precisely so that she could be despised by the smallfolk. 

And the odd thing? Is that in the books, the propaganda that "smallfolk hating the usurpers and wishing for Targ restoration" is not a lie:

Quote

“Furthermore, the Targaryens are all dead.”

“Not all,” said Alleras. “The Beggar King had a sister.”

“I thought her head was smashed against a wall,” said Roone.

“No,” said Alleras. “It was Prince Rhaegar’s young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister’s brave men. We speak of Rhaegar’s sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys.”

“The Stormborn. I recall her now.” Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. “Here’s to her!” He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. “Where’s Rosey? Our rightful queen deserves another round of cider, wouldn’t you say?”

“Lower your voice, you fool! You should not even jape about such things. You never know who could be listening. The Spider has ears everywhere.”         AFFC, Prologue

Quote

“One more thing. A trifling matter.” He gave her an apologetic smile and told her of a puppet show that had recently become popular amongst the city’s smallfolk; a puppet show wherein the kingdom of the beasts was ruled by a pride of haughty lions. “The puppet lions grow greedy and arrogant as this treasonous tale proceeds, until they begin to devour their own subjects. When the noble stag makes objection, the lions devour him as well, and roar that it is their right as the mightiest of beasts.”

“And is that the end of it?” Cersei asked, amused. Looked at in the right light, it could be seen as a salutary lesson.

“No, Your Grace. At the end a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions."  -          Cersei V, AFFC

I like @GraceK and @Sakura12's  attempts to reconcile the narrative with and this is usually the kind of headcanon I'd accept but...

D & D cited Dany's reaction to Viserys's death as her first sign of madness. Arya effectively committed genocide, and force-fed a man the corpses of his children. Sansa smiled at the sounds and sights of her ex-husband being torn apart by dogs - something that is a fond memory even now. Yet Dany is the mad one because she was expressionless at the death of a brother who had abused her, sexually threatened her, sold her and who had just threatened to cut open her womb?

I'm sorry but my brain broke at that. It's clear that  D & D never understood or even particularly liked the character, or the overall story they were telling. This is not the ending that GRRM planned for her story but the tragedy is that with the TV show preceding the books, this is the ending that most people will take as true.

Edited May 13, 2019 by ursula

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I feel like what made her lose it was this pent up rage. She won so easily. This shit could have been over years ago. And she realizes this. She realizes how much she has lost, and suffered, in pursuit of gaining back her family seat, and it was so easy to get it! And she’s enraged . It’s not enough anymore, they have to suffer like  she has suffered. These people don’t even want her there, and she saved them, and she lost so much saving them, and they despise her and rather have Jon. And she’s like, fuck it. And she just loses it.

That's as good an explanation as I've seen.  And too clever for the current writers, I'm afraid.  

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

When Sansa murdered her abuser Ramsey with hounds and watched and smiled that was justice. When Dany watched her abusive brother get murdered by her husband, she didn't smile or gloat. But she's cruel while Sansa's a hero. Arya killed the Freys and fed them to their father, then killed him for revenge. She's another hero, when Dany kills slave owners for killing children she's cruel and going mad.

Completely agree.  I don't buy this whole "This is exactly who she was all along" argument, not in a million years.  Compare Dany's arc with real villains like Cersei, Ramsay, and Euron.  They're not even remotely the same.  

Bottom line, I don't accept this ending.  Up until The Last Starks, I thought Game of Thrones was the best television show I had ever seen.  Since then it's just another silly TV show, it might as well be Happy Days.  Fonzie jumping over the shark tank to save Arnold's has more gravitas.  I don't buy what they've done with Dany, it wasn't earned, it wasn't necessary.  They can shove the whole lot as far as I'm concerned.

[GraceK]

38 minutes ago, ursula said:

D & D cited Dany's reaction to Viserys's death as her first sign of madness. Arya effectively committed genocide, and force-fed a man the corpses of his children. Sansa smiled at the sounds and sights of her ex-husband being torn apart by dogs - something that is a fond memory even now. Yet Dany is the mad one because she was expressionless at the death of a brother who had abused her, sexually threatened her, sold her and who had just threatened to cut open her womb?

 I'm sorry but my brain broke at that. It's clear that  D & D never understood or even particularly liked the character, or the overall story they were telling. This is not the ending that GRRM planned for her story but the tragedy is that with the TV show preceding the books, this is the ending that most people will take as true.

I never , NEVER agreed with D and Ds interpretation of Dany.  And I never thought st Dany watching her brother die was “ chilling “. He deserved it. Just like Ramsey did. I’m also enraged that they literally gave Dany more villainous acts in the show , and took away a lot of her goodness. The fact that she is still such a heroic character in the show is a TESTAMENT to how sweet she is in the books, because David and Dan have made her so much more bloodthirsty and ruthless. Also, they have completely whitewashed Jon Snow. Here’s examples below::

A list  of darker moments or moments of Jon losing his temper:

1) Jon attacks Thorne. He attacks Thorne in the show as well, but the book scene is much more violent and you can see that Jon was trying to kill him for real:

And then he heard the laughter, sharp and cruel as a whip, and the voice of Ser Alliser Thorne. “Not only a bastard, but a traitor’s bastard,” he was telling the men around him. In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away, and then he was sprinting down the table and kicking the bowl from Ser Alliser’s hand. Stew went flying everywhere, spattering the brothers. Thorne recoiled. People were shouting, but Jon Snow did not hear them. He lunged at Ser Alliser’s face with the dagger, slashing at those cold onyx eyes, but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers. - Jon VII AGOT

Talk about losing his temper. But the show doesn’t really dwell on this scene. Can you imagine if Dany wanted to kill someone over an insult? People would be shouting “Mad Queen” to no end.

2) In the fifth book, when Jon is Lord Commander, we also see some more darker actions (spoilers for the books here). In the books, Mance Rayder has a son, and Melisandre wants to burn the baby for his king’s blood. Jon wants to save the child, but to do this, he swaps Mance’s and Gilly’s babies. It’s done with good intentions, but Jon can’t guarantee that Melisandre won’t just burn Gilly’s baby. And Jon doesn’t simply swap the babies. He forces Gilly to do this against her will, forcing her to put her hand in the fire to make a point, and threatening to kill her baby if Mance’s baby dies.

3) He beheads Janos Slynt for disobeying, something that also happens in the show. But in the show, no one questions him. In the books, his brothers of the Night’s Watch are very much not happy with this:

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.” “Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. - Jon II ADWD

So while Jon is within his rights to execute Janos (it’s a medieval story after all), the books portray this as ambiguous, and not everyone is ok with this.

4) Jon takes Wildling children as hostages, and says he’s willing to kill them if their parents step out of line (unlike Dany, who was unable to kill her child hostages):

“Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.” “ None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”

Ask Janos Slynt. “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.” - Jon XI ADWD

5) Jon loses his temper once again in the third book, when he’s training:

He was almost ready to lower his blade and call a halt when Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow. For half a heartbeat the world beyond his eyeslit was a blur.

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him. Enough!”

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. “I’m sorry,” he muttered. “Emmett, are you hurt?” 

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. “Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?” It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. “Warrior defend me,” he groaned, “now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt.” - Jon XII ASOS

Jon completely loses his senses and starts beating Emmett mindlessly, having to be pulled away. Dany might have her impulsive moments (just like Jon has his), but she never completely lost notion of what she was doing in anger like Jon did here.

6) Jon puts people in ice cells, which serve to torture their prisoners. Before he kills Janos Slynt, he thinks about putting him in an ice cell to force him to comply. And later, Jon uses the ice cells many times. For quotes, go to asearchoficeandfire.com, because there are many quotes about this.

7) Overall, book!Jon doesn’t like to compromise, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but I’m pointing it out because people aways give Dany shit for “not compromising”, when in reality, Dany compromises a lot more than Jon. 

😎 Book Jon is not this perfect character that makes no political mistakes and is murdered just because people are bad. In the Night’s Watch, he is not murdered simply for letting the Wildlings pass the Wall, but also because he is uncompromising, doesn’t explain his reasons well, and because he breaks his Night’s Watch vows and plans to leave the Night’s Watch to fight Ramsey. But the show ignores this and portrays Jon as the noble hero that did nothing controversial and was murdered because he’s too good for this world. By the way, I’m not saying I disagree with book!Jon or that I think book!Jon is a bad leader. And I’m not saying that show!Jon doesn’t make political mistakes, because he does. But the show never frames Jon as a bad leader and is never willing to call attention to any mistake Jon makes, while always pointing out Dany’s mistakes.

Another darker attitude about Jon is that he’s willing to cut people’s head for disobeying, not just with Janos Slynt:

Down in the Seven Kingdoms boys of twelve were often pages or squires; many had been training at arms for years. Girls of twelve were children. These are wildlings, though. “As you will. Boys and girls as young as twelve. But only those who know how to obey an order. That goes for all of you. I will never ask you to kneel to me, but I will set captains over you, and serjeants who will tell you when to rise and when to sleep, where to eat, when to drink, what to wear, when to draw your swords and loose your arrows. The men of the Night’s Watch serve for life. I will not ask that of you, but so long as you are on the Wall you will be under my command. Disobey an order, and I’ll have your head off. Ask my brothers if I won’t. They’ve seen me do it.” - Jon V ADWD

This is a medieval world, so I don’t blame Jon for it. But if we’re talking about double standards, think about how the fandom would complain if Dany did something like this. The fandom is more than willing to ignore how their medieval world works when it comes to criticizing Dany. So I’m not surprised that David and Dan are pushing this narrative that Dany  was “ evil “ all along. It drives me crazy. Jon is just as much a Targaryen as she is. He had the advantage of being raised by a loving father figure and loving siblings ( except Sansa) Dany had nothing.

And this is why this reads as  misogynistic to me. Because they made Jon Snow this noble hero incapable of bad acts, and Daenerys this evil , cold hearted fire harpy, when that’s not true. Canon Jon Snow has the blood of the dragon in him, just like her. He has made morally questionable decisions. He has done DARK shit. He is interesting, strong, brave . He is a wolf and a Dragon. Onscreen Jon is a bitch who can’t lie and apparently can’t stand war , while Dany revels in fire and blood and needs to put down, while Canon Dany goes out amongst the sick and nurses them, and dreams of a house with a red door, and is a mother to her people. It’s sickening what they have done. Show Tyrion is gentle and anti war, while Canon Tyrion is a rapist who wants to murder Jaime and rape Cersei before he kills her, and Show Varys is all about the realm, when canon Varys cut out the tongues of children , his “ little birds”, and conspired to keep the Mad King “ mad”, and murdered countless people to keep the realm in chaos. All the villainous men have been made heroic and Daenerys has been vilified. How is that not misogyny???

Edited May 13, 2019 by GraceK

[Sakura12]

It's been so long since I read the books that I forgot most of that. I did remember that Jon wasn't so noble and weak in the books though. 

D&D also took the coin toss thing to a new level since they toss a coin at birth and its takes 20+ years and Dany losing everything she cares about for her go Mad. Or were supposed to go with everything she's done in the past 8 seasons, freeing slaves, killing their masters for killing children, stopping 2 groups from raping (the Dothraki and the Iron Born), freeing the Dothraki wives, imprisoning her dragons because they accidentally killed a kid, risking her life to save Jon and his team from the dead, risking her life for the North is all because she was insane the whole time. 

It is clear that D&D love the Starks and Cersei so they were always going to get the better edits. Dany's the Mad Queen that will die alone while the others will get or have gotten the romantic ending.  

Edited May 13, 2019 by Sakura12

[GraceK]

18 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

It is clear that D&D love the Starks and Cersei so they were always going to get the better edits. Dany's the Mad Queen that will die alone while the others will get or have gotten the romantic ending.  

Pretty much. That bitch Sansa will end up happy. Because she is purely a show creation, David and Dans pet project. 🙄 GRRM can’t stand her and in his books? 🤷🏻‍♀️ I can’t wait to see her unhappy ending . But in the show , little Cersei 2.0 will end up triumphant. 

They massacred my boy, Jon Snow and destroyed Dany. Bran is the true villain really..I mean, what value is he? Did he see all this, and if he did, why didn’t he stop it? He’s about humanity, but did nothing to stop the slaughter of Kings Landing? Didn’t think to talk to Dany? And people think he will be a good King? He’s pure evil. He does nothing. He watches and just... watches. Let’s it play out. How on earth is that a head of council???

Edited May 13, 2019 by GraceK

[RobertDeSneero]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

I'm sorry but my brain broke at that. It's clear that  D & D never understood or even particularly liked the character, or the overall story they were telling. This is not the ending that GRRM planned for her story but the tragedy is that with the TV show preceding the books, this is the ending that most people will take as true.

I suspect that this really is GRRM's endgame for Dany.  Bookreaders have speculated for years that she will be the final villain in what is known as the "Mad Queen theory".

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Completely agree.  I don't buy this whole "This is exactly who she was all along" argument, not in a million years.  Compare Dany's arc with real villains like Cersei, Ramsay, and Euron.  They're not even remotely the same.  

I can buy she always had this potential which is why she is tragic. She doesn't have a Hound to talk to her straight.

Again if there had been room to breathe a bit more, I think Daavos could have been a decent advisor to her. He knows King's Landing, knows that part of Westeros. He's more common than not.  He is also a good man, willing to talk truth to his leader. Plus I think he is just more adept with people than Stannis or Jon. 

So yeah, like all the characters but Jon, Dany had the potential for evil. She just happened to have a dragon to back her up. 

[rmontro]

44 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

So yeah, like all the characters but Jon, Dany had the potential for evil. She just happened to have a dragon to back her up. 

We all have the potential for evil.  That doesn't mean that I believe that this particular character chose it, on this kind of scale.  It doesn't ring true.  Not for me, and obviously not for a lot of people.

[Umbelina]

45 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I suspect that this really is GRRM's endgame for Dany.  Bookreaders have speculated for years that she will be the final villain in what is known as the "Mad Queen theory".

I agree.

The problem is the show has used Dany for spectacle and for dragons, and though there were small hints of her potential to go full nuke fury?  The larger messages they always pushed were: 

• invincible!
• slave freer
• victim who rose above all
• Disney style princess/savior

She was the star of most of their blockbuster CGI scenes as well.

They didn't give her enough quiet scenes, relationship scenes, especially with Jon. 

I mean, Jon (the true King by Dany's logic) AND her relative, and her lover should and would have had more impact, more tragedy, more joy, more love, and inevitable true heartbreak for both of them.

Instead, most of her scenes with Jon have been for spectacle or dragons or fantastic cinematic scenery shots. 

The writers introduced it late, and rushed it, and didn't give them the amazing kind of dialogue and space they constantly gave Lena and Peter.  Their time together was always in service of the battles (and come on the sheer idiocy of the battle plans spoiled that too.) 

They basically had a CGI "relationship" and it's pretty hard to convey all that was needed of the love story, when they gave them almost no words, or time, let alone a believable love.

I am getting tired of the "no chemistry" stuff, because I think both actors were well capable of "bringing it" but because this is a headlong rush to the finish line?  They were not given the chance.

Battles and spectaclea were more important to D&D.

Dany's descent into this kind of pain could not be earned the way they handled it.  They did give her one important scene, but it was not enough.  "they love you, not me." 

Dany (they TELL us, but don't really show us) was in utter despair.  Shame on them.

[rmontro]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The problem is the show has used Dany for spectacle and for dragons, and though there were small hints of her potential to go full nuke fury?  The larger messages they always pushed were: 

• invincible!
• slave freer
• victim who rose above all
• Disney style princess/savior

She was the star of most of their blockbuster CGI scenes as well.

That's true.  Just to pull one example out of thin air, that scene from the fighting pit in Mereen where they are about to assassinate Dany and her followers, when Drogon flies in saves them?  Are we not supposed to cheer that?  Is that not one of the "coolest" moments in the whole series?  It's no surprise people got invested in her story.  Not only for that, but for the other reasons you mentioned as well.

I heard the Mad Queen theory early on, so I knew it was always a possibility.  You couldn't really be unaware of it, because they bring up the "Mad Targaryen" and "Flip a coin" stuff early.  Which is why I felt so sick in the pit of my stomach in episode five, because it was like oh no, they really are going there.

[Spartan Girl]

Another painful thing that made me angry about the Dany/Jon scene is that when she asked, "Is (your queen) all I am to you?" he could have said, "No, you're my blood, my family. We're all that's left." Even if he was squicked out by the incest, he could have said that much, made her feel a little less alone. But he didn't.

You really know NOTHING, Jon Snow.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Another painful thing that made me angry about the Dany/Jon scene is that when she asked, "Is (your queen) all I am to you?" he could have said, "No, you're my blood, my family. We're all that's left." Even if he was squicked out by the incest, he could have said that much, made her feel a little less alone. But he didn't.

You really know NOTHING, Jon Snow.

I'm changing that to:

YOU KNOW NOTHING D&D.

Jon can't say what the writers don't bother to write.

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Another painful thing that made me angry about the Dany/Jon scene is that when she asked, "Is (your queen) all I am to you?" he could have said, "No, you're my blood, my family. We're all that's left." Even if he was squicked out by the incest, he could have said that much, made her feel a little less alone. But he didn't.

You really know NOTHING, Jon Snow.

Seriously. He didn’t even do that. He’s as comforting as a chia pet.