Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen: The Breaker Of Chains, Mother Of Dragons Etc

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Jorah is dead.  Missandei is dead.  She feels alienated from Jon.  She doesn't trust Tyrion.  My theory is that Grey Worm proposed that she unleash dragonfire on the people.  He is in that meeting but doesn't say anything because he already spoke before the cut.  Does he seem happy when Dany agrees to stop if the bells ring?

I am so ruthless the truth is, I would be ok with Dany taking out the people of Kings Landing. Honestly they were not exactly "innocent" and probably were a good reason for the continuation of the wheel. Most of the people probably would have tried to undermine her. Though I was also hoping the night king would win. However, I suspect that is not where it will end. I suspect that next episode Dany won't want to stop.  It is also tragic that I believe that she had been held back so much - when taking Kings Landing was so stunningly easy.. she realized what she could do if she put her mind to it. 

What really bothers me though is that she should have wanted personal revenge against Cersie (same with Gray Worm) and yet, she didn't even seem to try. I thought when she took off after the bells ringing she would head straight up to the red keep.  But no... it was like she actively avoided it.  It is just so unnatural that it takes the viewer out of it. 

GOT usually allows its characters to get personal revenge, Arya getting the Frays, Sansa getting Ramsy, but Dany didn't get personal revenge or even try. 

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

I am so ruthless the truth is, I would be ok with Dany taking out the people of Kings Landing. Honestly they were not exactly "innocent" and probably were a good reason for the continuation of the wheel. Most of the people probably would have tried to undermine her. Though I was also hoping the night king would win. However, I suspect that is not where it will end. I suspect that next episode Dany won't want to stop.  It is also tragic that I believe that she had been held back so much - when taking Kings Landing was so stunningly easy.. she realized what she could do if she put her mind to it. 

What really bothers me though is that she should have wanted personal revenge against Cersie (same with Gray Worm) and yet, she didn't even seem to try. I thought when she took off after the bells ringing she would head straight up to the red keep.  But no... it was like she actively avoided it.  It is just so unnatural that it takes the viewer out of it. 

GOT usually allows its characters to get personal revenge, Arya getting the Frays, Sansa getting Ramsy, but Dany didn't get personal revenge or even try. 

That's because to show Dany being Mad they dehumanized her. We only saw her right during the bell ringing, after that she was unseen monster destroying a city with fire. We didn't even see her afterwards. 

[Scaeva]

People who are angry that Dany took a heel turn haven't been paying attention to the series. She's been threatening to destroy cities for several seasons now. Is it really shocking that she finally did it?

Sure, the leaders of those Essos city-states were totally unsympathetic slavers (which is why both characters in the story and fans of the show ignored Daenerys' ruthlessness or even confused it for righteousness), but had she carried out those threats it would have played out exactly like King's Landing, with thousands of innocent civilians being roasted alongside the noble lords and ladies or their soldiers. It would have included slaves as well, since you can't be discriminate and simultaneously reduce a city entirely to ash. Dany's first intincts have always been toward genocide. 

When she departed Mereen as if it were nothing more than a trial-run for Westeros, she left it in the hands of a ruthless mercenary who openly stated he did not give a f--k about Mereen.  If Daario manages to rule at all, it will be as a despot, and Daenerys should know that. She just didn't care.

This was not a character assassination. A bloody-minded tyrant is who Daenerys has always been.

The difference between now & past seasons is that Dany was more secure in her position in that she had not yet lost two dragons, hadn't yet been met by smallfolk who were largely ambivalent to her rule, and had not yet encountered the revelation that her claim to the Iron Throne base on birthright rested on a shaky foundation. Perhaps more importantly she always had voices of reason around her who could talk her out of giving into those first instincts toward violent solutions. 

Now most of those advisers are dead except Tyrion and Grey Worm, she no longer trusts the former, and as an Unsullied Grey Worm would never question an order to destroy King's Landing even without Missandei's death. That the closest thing Daenerys had to a friend among her inner circle called for King's Landing to be destroyed with her dying breath probably did not help.

King's Landing being the final stage for her House falling into ruin also makes opposition there more personal than it would have been with any of the city-states of Slaver's Bay.

I do think that her final pivot toward villainy could have been developed better and more gradually, and I expect that will be the case with the books (Guarantee that Dany the Destroyer is 100% Martin), but the turn itself should have come as a shock to no one. The writing has been on the wall for several seasons now. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Scaeva

[Lokiberry]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

That's because to show Dany being Mad they dehumanized her. We only saw her right during the bell ringing, after that she was unseen monster destroying a city with fire. We didn't even see her afterwards. 

You think showing her face while she was roasting innocent civilians would have helped her case any? Do you think she was sobbing, "I'm so, so sorry!" as Drogon rained down fire on women and children? If anything, cutting back to her in the midst of the slaughter would have made it worse. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Lokiberry

[Friendly kitty]

18 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

You think showing her face while she was roasting innocent civilians would have helped her case any? Do you think she was sobbing, "I'm so, so sorry!" as Drogon rained down fire on women and children? If anything, cutting back to her in the midst of the slaughter would have made it worse. 

Rather, I believe that she did not sob at this moment, and hysterically laughed. She wanted everyone to be afraid of her. Here she burned the city, and now the rest of the world will kneel in front of her for horror that this will happen again.
Deineris has completely lost her mind, so you can’t keep her alive in the final. So Arya must destroy the dragon, and John will have to deal with Deineris.

[ursula]

20 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

You think showing her face while she was roasting innocent civilians would have helped her case any? 

They didn't show her face because at that point, Dany had been dehumanized:

3 hours ago, BooBear said:

she should have wanted personal revenge against Cersie (same with Gray Worm) and yet, she didn't even seem to try. I thought when she took off after the bells ringing she would head straight up to the red keep.  But no... it was like she actively avoided it.  It is just so unnatural that it takes the viewer out of it. 

[Sakura12]

Yes if they wanted me to see how truly mad Dany is, show me the madness in her eyes while she's roasting people alive. Let me see the Mad Queen. Not some unseen force from above. 

[ursula]

Cersei was standing at the balcony, staring her down. She should have been flying straight and hard for the Red Keep. Instead she took the "scenic route" and stopped to roast everyone along the way, giving Cersei time to potentially take her own life which would have cheated Dany of the pleasure of burning her alive for Missandei and Rhaegal. 

So in one illogical move, Dany gets demonized and Cersei gets a chance to escape and die in the arms of her beloved. When the villain of the story gets a sympathetic exit at the expense of the illogical villain-turn of the hero then it's the writers throwing away logic to establish their own preferred outcome. 

[Sakura12]

I guess if you are only a Sansa and/or Arya fan and hate Dany this is a great season. But if you like any of the other characters not just talking about Dany here, other characters are being ruined. This is a terrible season. 

Were the seeds planted for Dany possibly going mad? Yes. No one is denying that. Did I think she would have a happy ending? No. This is Game of Thrones. Did I think she would be The Queen? No. It was her sudden switch into madness in one episode that is the issue here. Having Verys declare her insane because she was depressed at a party after losing one of her closest friends and no one else was even talking to her. Was not showing me Dany was insane. Having her burn Verys for betraying her and trying to poison her is  not showing me she's insane. Nothing pointed to insanity, anger and depression yes. Nothing pointed to her burning innocents instead of going after Cersei. 

GRRM might have the same ending, but from reading I'll get more insight into Dany's state of mind. I know with a visual medium they don't have that, instead they need to show me that through other actions or dialogue. They failed at that because they wanted the shock and awe not character development. 

[ursula]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

GRRM might have the same ending

Well he can't. Because Varys and Tyrion aren't Team Dany, they're Team fAegon. Cersei won't be Final Boss, the story will end as it started with the threat of the White Walkers. Barristan Selmy is alive, as well as (except Doreah) all the inner circle members of Dany's original khalasar. Even Xaro is alive and has a frenemish relationship with her.

It always confuses me when people claim that the show "downplayed" Dany's ambiguity in the books when it's actually the opposite. I don't believe anyone who has read the books can honestly claim that. book!Dany is not so isolated, and she doesn't need wise men to restrain her. If anything, Dany is losing in Mereen because she's not being ruthless enough, against the advice of Daario and Barristan Selmy. A classic example is how with Selmy's advice, she borrowed the Westeros-method of taking hostages from the nobility... but she can't bring herself to harm any of them and instead develops friendships with them, so it's become clear that it's an empty threat. The first time she flies Drogon, she's saving him from a trap being set by him, and saving the people around him he's attacking (including Tyrion).

I think it's safe to say that the Band of Seven Samurai Wight Hunt will never happen in the books. Or that all the books's set-up prophecies will go unfulfilled. 

*D & D might be sticking to some details - Jon kills Dany, King's Landing is burnt down, Varys is executed for treason... but the story around those facts are going to be drastically different from what the show's given us.

*might - the only thing we know for sure is that they've been told the endgames of the principal characters. Whether they've actually implemented these endgames, even the "bare bones" of these endgames is something that neither they or GRRM can confirm or deny for a long time, if ever the books are completed.

[GraceK]

5 hours ago, slf said:

Robb, as he himself pointed out, was losing the war despite having won every battle. Robb didn't lose because of bad luck, he lost because he trusted Theon despite having good reason not to, and broke his word to the Freys for the wrong woman (a Lannister bannerwoman?! Margaery Tyrell would've been the superior choice). He was a great tactician but Tywin was the better politician and was more ruthless, with a bigger army and more money.

Robb would never have bent the knee to Daenerys and would never agree to any plan that didn't allow for an independent North (which she would never agree to).

Well it’s a fantasy ship for a reason😂😂😂😂

[Constantinople]

Emilia Clarke will never win that Emmy now

You went full Targaryen, man. Never go full Targaryen. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full Targaryen, went home empty-handed.

[izabella]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Cersei was standing at the balcony, staring her down. She should have been flying straight and hard for the Red Keep. Instead she took the "scenic route" and stopped to roast everyone along the way, giving Cersei time to potentially take her own life which would have cheated Dany of the pleasure of burning her alive for Missandei and Rhaegal. 

So in one illogical move, Dany gets demonized and Cersei gets a chance to escape and die in the arms of her beloved. When the villain of the story gets a sympathetic exit at the expense of the illogical villain-turn of the hero then it's the writers throwing away logic to establish their own preferred outcome. 

Cersei’s death was a big disappointment.  I did not understand why Danly did not go straight for her at that point.  Considering how fast Drogon was this episode, she’d have torched her before Cersei could get off one last smirk.  

It made no sense to me.  Can anyone explain why?  Is it that Dany didn’t care about defeating her anymore and just wanted to destroy KL and Cersei could live or die, no matter?  I don’t get it because she killed Missandei; Dany should have had Cersei as number 1 on her death by  dragon fire list.

As it is, we didn’t even see her die, even though I’ve been waiting for it since she demanded Lady be killed.  I would even have been happy with Jamie killing her, but no.  

[RobertDeSneero]

29 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Were the seeds planted for Dany possibly going mad? Yes. No one is denying that. Did I think she would have a happy ending? No. This is Game of Thrones. Did I think she would be The Queen? No. It was her sudden switch into madness in one episode that is the issue here. Having Verys declare her insane because she was depressed at a party after losing one of her closest friends and no one else was even talking to her. Was not showing me Dany was insane. Having her burn Verys for betraying her and trying to poison her is  not showing me she's insane. Nothing pointed to insanity, anger and depression yes. Nothing pointed to her burning innocents instead of going after Cersei. 

GRRM might have the same ending, but from reading I'll get more insight into Dany's state of mind. I know with a visual medium they don't have that, instead they need to show me that through other actions or dialogue. They failed at that because they wanted the shock and awe not character development. 

I'm not convinced this was an act of madness, but even if it were, I don't think the story has to be a slow and noticeable descent into madness.  If she is depressed, a major depressive episode can sometimes have a sudden onset out of nowhere.

I believe I have a reasonable case that she planned on burning King's Landing if the city didn't surrender, but the bells triggered her to follow through even though the city was surrendering.

Even before Missandei was beheaded, Dany wanted to attack the city and have people know that it was Cersei's fault that the walls were talking down on top of them.  Varys and Tyrion were the ones who convinced her to give Cersei a chance to surrender, which she only agreed to because she thought it would make her look good, and she no longer trusts them.  The more I think about, the more I am convinced that she never expected the bells to ring and is embarking on the course she would have taken if they hadn't. 

[Colorful Mess]

12 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

She is a Queen (of Mereen) and also a Khaleesi. She has an army and loyal supporters who follow her because they believed in her. If she feels entitled to some respect, I don’t think it’s unreasonable. If she was a foreign queen just stopping by for dinner, surely they would give her that basic courtesy. The real question is whether she’s their queen. Sansa thinks not, Jon says yes. 

 After this episode, its clear that everyone who believed in her was in a cult.

Jon's instincts were very wrong. 

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The more I think about, the more I am convinced that she never expected the bells to ring and is embarking on the course she would have taken if they hadn't. 

Probably hoping the bells wouldn't ring, disappointed when they did, and impulsively doing what she'd longed to do anyway.

Still needed some more buildup by the writers for me to really buy it from Dany. I wonder if the official communiques to the rest of the kingdom and the history she plans to order to be written about the incident will state that the city simply refused to surrender, so she burned it?

[ursula]

6 hours ago, slf said:

Robb would never have bent the knee to Daenerys and would never agree to any plan that didn't allow for an independent North (which she would never agree to).

I won't say never. The fact that the King on the Iron Throne was not a Targaryen was one of the reasons the Northern Lords gave for secession. And the wording was very specific: "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me... nor is Stannis... The others take the Lannisters, too.... it was the dragons, we married and now the dragons are dead."

Even the choice of "married" versus "bowed to", implying a mutual partnership and not a conquest. (Which is technically true as Torrhen knelt without a battle).

Truth is that the North vs Targaryen conflict is mostly a show invention. Ned wanted Justice for his father and brother, but it was Jon Arryn who first called his bannermen to oust Aerys. Ned was personally disgusted with the murder of the Targaryen children before he knew he was the uncle to one. And he backed Robert's claim to the Throne based on his Targaryen lineage.

Edited May 15, 2019 by ursula

[Hana Chan]

3 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The more I think about, the more I am convinced that she never expected the bells to ring and is embarking on the course she would have taken if they hadn't

It was pretty clear to me that when Tyrion was all but begging for Dany to acknowledge that the ringing if the city bells was to signal the surrender of the city that she was brushing off his concerns. He saw that she was ready to burn KL to the ground and was trying to find grounds for her to hold back. She heard the bells and made the decision not to. Whether it was giving in to her hereditary madness, to punish the city for not embracing her or to send a message to the rest of the kingdom, the end results are the same. A ton of civilian casualties at Dany's hands.

Maybe if Dany handled justice the way that Jon had been taught, with his own hands rather than leaving it to her dragons or her sycophantic followers, she would have been more judicious in how she handled things. Life is not so easy to take when it's your own hands wielding the sword. And maybe had Dany fleshed out her plans for Westeros beyond "breaking the wheel" and taking "her throne" we wouldn't be watching her turn into a monster.

I can understand why a lot of people are distressed by this. I know that a lot of people are deeply invested in Dany's story and hoped that despite the clues dropped that she wouldn't give in to become a villain in Westeros, but that is where we are now. Would additional episodes showing her motivations more made much of a difference for them? I'm not sure. I've got the feeling that no matter how much evidence or build up before this would change their opinions much. No one likes to see their hero fall but, for me at least, that has the potential to be a compelling conclusion.

[MarySNJ]

31 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

 After this episode, its clear that everyone who believed in her was in a cult.

Jon's instincts were very wrong. 

After this episode, I agree. But before this episode Jon saw a woman who was willing to risk everything to protect the realm, and put aside her own ambitions to do it. I don’t think he could have foreseen that she was going full-on dracarys on everyone in Kings Landing. It would have helpful for the Three Eyed Raven to have clued  him in on that.

25 minutes ago, ursula said:

I won't say never. The fact that the King on the Iron Throne was not a Targaryen was one of the reasons the Northern Lords gave for secession. And the wording was very specific: "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me... nor is Stannis... The others take the Lannisters, too.... it was the dragons, we married and now the dragons are dead."

Even the choice of "married" versus "bowed to", implying a mutual partnership and not a conquest. (Which is technically true as Torrhen knelt without a battle).

Truth is that the North vs Targaryen conflict is mostly a show invention. Ned wanted Justice for his father and brother, but it was Jon Arryn who first called his bannermen to oust Aerys. Ned was personally disgusted with the murder of the Targaryen children before he knew he was the uncle to one. And he backed Robert's claim to the Throne based on his Targaryen lineage.

Indeed. In fact, the Starks were Targaryen loyalists right up until Lyanna was ‘kidnapped’ and Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by MarySNJ

[RobertDeSneero]

1 minute ago, MarySNJ said:

After this episode, I agree. But before this episode Jon saw a woman who was willing to risk everything to protect the realm, and put aside her own ambitions to do it. I don’t think he could have foreseen that she was going full-on dracarys on everyone in Kings Landing. It would have helpful for the Three Eyed Raven to have clued  him in on that.

It's been established on the show that Jon Snow knows nothing, so it is in character for him to be wrong about her.

[ursula]

24 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Maybe if Dany handled justice the way that Jon had been taught, with his own hands rather than leaving it to her dragons or her sycophantic followers, she would have been more judicious in how she handled things. Life is not so easy to take when it's your own hands wielding the sword. 

This doesn't track. The dragons are to Dany to wield as Ice was to Ned Stark. You might as well argue that Ned should personally strangle every man he sentenced with his bare hands.

Relatedly, I thought it should have meant something that Sansa had Littlefinger executed by proxy (Arya). Or Jon hanging Olly et al when he had rejected that concept for Slynth. (Of course it didn't because the show had lost its way by then. In the books, this would have meant something sinister. Expediency is not a consideration. Cregan Stark was preparing to execute every man he condemned post DoD.)

The equivalent to this would be Dany having Grey Worm execute Varys or any of her Dothraki bloodriders execute the Tarlys.

Edited May 15, 2019 by ursula

[Kate47]

I personally think that Dany and Grey Worm agreed between them to give no quarter and wipe the whole place clean. I think, when Tyrion begged her to stop the attack if the bells rang, she agreed. However, I believe that her condition for agreeing was an unattainable goal; something like "sure, I'll stop if they all immediately kneel." This way, when it's over, she can say "well, I gave then a chance, it's their fault" and it still jives with the direction she wants to take anyway.

I think her pause was this multifaceted internal debate between what she had already agreed to with Grey Worm and Tyrion, what she wanted to do, and anger at how stupid simple this would have been. 

She was always going to be unnecessarily ruthless, IMO. Her grief was too strong to do otherwise.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Kate47
Clarification

[ShellsandCheese]

23 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

It was justifiable. Varys was right.

I disagree. It's possible the outcome would have been different if you know, Varys had actually had a conversation with her (as he promised to do) instead of immediately resorting to trying to kill her. And for what exactly? Grieving the loss of friends and her dragon. Being upset that everything that she's been working towards was about to go to shit because out of the blue, suddenly at the last hour, there's a Targaryen with a better claim than hers. 

Varys never had an issue with anything Dany did, other than perhaps burning the Tarly's. There was nothing that happened between that and him trying to poison her that would suggest that he suddenly saw some madness in her that absolutely frightened him. In fact, all she did in between was try to help other people. 

[ursula]

16 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

It's possible the outcome would have been different if you know, Varys had actually had a conversation with her (as he promised to do) instead of immediately resorting to trying to kill her.

I mean it shows how ridiculous the show gets that this even needs to be argued: Varys was literally trying to kill her... for being sad... that her friend died... He's never had one conversation or interaction with Jon to make him believe he'd be a better ruler (cock ownership aside). If anything in Battle, it was Dany who rushed in to save soldiers while Jon was willing to let them die as collateral... And Varys, who is supposed to be all about the "little guy", thinks Jon would be a better ruler?! 🤦🤦🤦🤦

A few episodes ago, he was calling Dany a just woman... and now she deserves to die?

The show does this amazingly audacious thing where Varys's treason is used as a factor towards isolating and pushing Dany to "madness"... without actually acknowledging it as treason. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by ursula

[ursula]

38 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

In fact, the Starks were Targaryen loyalists right up until Lyanna was ‘kidnapped’ and Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon. 

I love the way season 8 just overlooks the Stark-Lannister conflict that only, you know, defined the entire show or that Theon Greyjoy invaded the North and razed Winterfell. By show logic, a resurrected Aerys would have had a better welcome in the North than Dany.

[Colorful Mess]

14 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I disagree. It's possible the outcome would have been different if you know, Varys had actually had a conversation with her (as he promised to do) instead of immediately resorting to trying to kill her. And for what exactly? Grieving the loss of friends and her dragon. Being upset that everything that she's been working towards was about to go to shit because out of the blue, suddenly at the last hour, there's a Targaryen with a better claim than hers. 

Varys never had an issue with anything Dany did, other than perhaps burning the Tarly's. There was nothing that happened between that and him trying to poison her that would suggest that he suddenly saw some madness in her that absolutely frightened him. In fact, all she did in between was try to help other people. 

Varys had an "issue" in episode four. Perhaps you remember it, him disapproving of her plan to mass murder of civilians which is what she did in this episode. He told her to her face that he thought she was betraying the people. "These are the people you came here to protect. I beg you, your grace, do not destroy the city you came to save." Basically, he's warning her not to become a tyrant. And from his perspective she looks like she's going to do that anyway. So...after seeing it in action yeah, I support the poisoning (if he even did that, there is no on screen evidence that he did).

He was what we might call "prescient." 

[Constantinople]

7 minutes ago, ursula said:

I mean it shows how ridiculous the show gets that this even needs to be argued: Varys was literally trying to kill her... for being sad... that her friend died... He's never had one conversation or interaction with Jon to make him believe he'd be a better ruler (cock ownership aside). If anything in Battle, it was Dany who rushed in to save soldiers while Jon was willing to let them die as collateral... And Varys is supposed to be all about the "little guy"! Yet he concludes that Jon would make a better ruler?  🤦🤦🤦🤦

A few episodes ago, he was calling Dany a just woman... and now she deserves to die?

The show does this amazingly audacious thing where Varys's treason is used as a factor towards isolating and pushing Dany to "madness"... without actually acknowledging it as treason. 

To quote Varys, Jon is "temperate and measured", though given how little time Varys has spent with Jon, and how little Varys appears to know about Jon, I don't know how Varys arrived at that conclusion.

[MarySNJ]

14 minutes ago, ursula said:

I mean it shows how ridiculous the show gets that this even needs to be argued: Varys was literally trying to kill her... for being sad... that her friend died... He's never had one conversation or interaction with Jon to make him believe he'd be a better ruler (cock ownership aside). If anything in Battle, it was Dany who rushed in to save soldiers while Jon was willing to let them die as collateral... And Varys is supposed to be all about the "little guy"! Yet he concludes that Jon would make a better ruler?  🤦🤦🤦🤦

A few episodes ago, he was calling Dany a just woman... and now she deserves to die?

The show does this amazingly audacious thing where Varys's treason is used as a factor towards isolating and pushing Dany to "madness"... without actually acknowledging it as treason. 

I recall that in season 1 Varys was conspiring with Illyrio to bring Viserys with Drogo’s khalisar over to Westeros. Viserys. And a Dothraki hoard. Apparently, his concern for Targaryen madness only applies to Daenerys because Viserys was more of a loose cannon and sppeared closer to madness, but Varys thought he would be A-okay as a King as compared to Robert. 

Also, as I recall, Varys is the one who when convening with Elyria Sand and Lady Olenna actually says the words “fire and blood” in relation to Daenerys not as a warning but as a promise.  

So when did he decide that fire and blood is bad and Daenerys must be stopped even if he had to poison her? 

Edited May 15, 2019 by MarySNJ

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Apparently, his concern for Targaryen madness only applies to Daenerys because Viserys was more of a loose cannon and sppeared closer to madness, but Varys thought he would be A-okay as a King as compared to Robert. 

I mean... 🤷

6 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

So when did he decide that fire and blood is bad and Daenerys must be stopped even if he had to poison her? 

When D & D realized they needed to set her up for madness and death. 

[Maximum Taco]

13 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I recall that in season 1 Varys was conspiring with Illyrio to bring Viserys with Drogo’s khalisar over to Westeros. Viserys. And a Dothraki hoard. Apparently, his concern for Targaryen madness only applies to Daenerys because Viserys was more of a loose cannon and sppeared closer to madness, but Varys thought he would be A-okay as a King as compared to Robert. 

Also, as I recall, Varys is the one who when convening with Elyria Sand and Lady Olenna actually says the words “fire and blood” in relation to Daenerys not as a warning but as a promise.  

So when did he decide that fire and blood is bad and Daenerys must be stopped even if he had to poison her? 

This is the issue when the show tries to streamline storylines. 

In the books Varys was never behind Viserys or Daenerys, he was merely using them both to raise a better army for Young Griff/Aegon

Edited May 15, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[ursula]

15 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Jon is "temperate and measured", though given how little time Varys has spent with Jon, and how little Varys appears to know about Jon, I don't know how Varys arrived at that conclusion.

Well he told us - Jon has a cock. Viserys had one too. Apparently they have a tempering effect on Targaryen "madness". It is known.

Edited May 15, 2019 by ursula

[Scaeva]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Yes if they wanted me to see how truly mad Dany is, show me the madness in her eyes while she's roasting people alive. Let me see the Mad Queen. Not some unseen force from above. 

I don't think Daenerys has gone mad. I doubt it will be revealed this Sunday that's she has started hearing voices, or exhibiting some other symptom of a break from reality.

She knew exactly what she is doing and made an active choice to base her rule of Westeros upon fear. Was she mad when she suggested burning cities around Slaver's Bay? 

[Constantinople]

10 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Varys had an "issue" in episode four. Perhaps you remember it, him disapproving of her plan to mass murder of civilians which is what she did in this episode. He told her to her face that he thought she was betraying the people. "These are the people you came here to protect. I beg you, your grace, do not destroy the city you came to save." Basically, he's warning her not to become a tyrant. And from his perspective she looks like she's going to do that anyway. So...after seeing it in action yeah, I support the poisoning (if he even did that, there is no on screen evidence that he did).

He was what we might call "prescient." 

Varys said, "Cersei needs to be destroyed, but if we attack King's Landing with Drogon and the Unsullied and the Dothraki, tens of thousands of innocents will die"

How do you destroy Cersei without attacking King's Landing? Even if you besiege the city, thousands will likely die due to starvation and disease before people rise up and kill her.
 

Quote

Jorah: If you want to sit on the throne your ancestors built, you must win it. That will mean blood on your hands before the thing is done.

Daenerys: The blood of my enemies, not the blood of innocents.

Jorah: How many wars have you fought in, Ser Barristan?

Barristan: Three.

Jorah: Have you ever seen a war where innocents didn't die by the thousands?

Barristan: (Shakes head)
Walk of Punishment, S3 E3

Varys knows this as well, so it's a little precious and inconsistent of him to argue they should somehow magically destroy Cersei.

Of course, inconsistency has lately been Varys's forte. Last season he told Daenerys and Tyrion that he was justified turning on King Robert because Robert had no interest in being king. This season Varys asked Tyrion, "Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule?"

As it is, the attack went remarkably well, and there's no evidence that Varys foresaw Daenerys suddenly going crazy once the bells rang.

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Of course, inconsistency has lately been Varys's forte. Last season he told Daenerys and Tyrion that he was justified turning on King Robert because Robert had no interest in being king. This season Varys asked Tyrion, "Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule?"

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Nothing in this narrative holds up under scrutiny. It's ridiculous.

[izabella]

12 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Varys said, "Cersei needs to be destroyed, but if we attack King's Landing with Drogon and the Unsullied and the Dothraki, tens of thousands of innocents will die"

How do you destroy Cersei without attacking King's Landing? Even if you besiege the city, thousands will likely die due to starvation and disease before people rise up and kill her.

If you are Varys, or Olenna, you might try to poison her wine.

[Andromeda]

11 hours ago, ursula said:

I can see Jon killing Dany (or more likely vice versa) as part of the ritual for creating Lightbringer, etc.

I could never get behind that prophecy. Yuck. Talk about fridging a woman for the sake of a man.

2 minutes ago, izabella said:

How do you destroy Cersei without attacking King's Landing? Even if you besiege the city, thousands will likely die due to starvation and disease before people rise up and kill her.

So, so many ways! Tyrion, Arya, and Jamie all know a secret way into the Red Keep, and Arya has faces ability. It would have been so easy to plot a political or infiltration takedown, and much more satisfying, too, considering what a wanker she's been. LOL.

[ursula]

5 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I could never get behind that prophecy. Yuck. Talk about fridging a woman for the sake of a man.

Honestly I figured that the subversion would have been Dany being the one to kill him, not the other way around. The expectation was that Jon would be Azor and the promised Prince but it would turn out that Dany was Azor and the promised Princess. Thematically, Jon's resurrection implies he's on borrowed time, needing to live long enough to do ... something. That something might just be his unique bloodline* being the forge to temper Lightbringer. 

But damn, it shows how badly this is that I'd even be happy with a storyline where Dany volunteers to sacrifice herself heroically to save the world. 

*It's supposed to be significant that Jon is the only Stark-Targaryen in history. There were attempts in the past to have an alliance via marriage that kept failing. 

[RobertDeSneero]

30 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Of course, inconsistency has lately been Varys's forte. Last season he told Daenerys and Tyrion that he was justified turning on King Robert because Robert had no interest in being king. This season Varys asked Tyrion, "Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule?"

There is a difference between someone who is negligent in his duties and someone who doesn't want to rule but accepts the responsibility when it is thrust upon him.

[Constantinople]

46 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

There is a difference between someone who is negligent in his duties and someone who doesn't want to rule but accepts the responsibility when it is thrust upon him.

Ned Stark didn't want to be Hand of the King, but he took responsibility for it.

How well did he do as a ruler who did not want to rule?

Quote

Varys (to Tyrion): You're quite good at being Hand, you know? Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were good men. Honorable men. But they disdained the game and those who played. You enjoy the game. The Prince of Winterfell, S2 E8)

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Ned Stark didn't want to be Hand of the King, but he took responsibility for it.

How well did he do as a ruler who did not want to rule?

I don't think that was about not wanting to rule, though. It was about his style of leadership not fitting with what was going on in KL at the time. Cersei loved playing the GoT and she's the queen now...and the city's in ruins. Where as it seems like Ned did pretty well ruling in the North. He just wasn't ambitious for more power.

[Hana Chan]

It's also impossible for a Hand to be effective when you've got a King that refuses to listen to their advice and feedback and has members of the inner circle actively working against you. Something that Tyrion knows very well now.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Hana Chan

[Kate47]

Also! I'm gonna throw myself into the Dany insanity debate because why not.

So for me, Dany's question of madness requires you to ask if grief is a form of madness. If it is:

A. Is it then temporary madness, due to intensity of grief, and can it be empathized and understood and worked through?

B. Is it the sort of madness that is *not* temporary, cannot be worked through and can then lead to full fledged insanity?

Grief is a bitch. It's awful and monstrous and can make people burn down their lives or make unforgivable decisions without considering consequences. It isolates people, it never really goes away. It's not fun, and it's also not insanity (though it can def open the doors to insanity).

Grief is def def a form of madness because it causes people to make decisions and do things that in the moment are entirely logical and sound to them, and then make no sense at all when they are able to clearly reason.

In my opinion, this act is Dany on grief. It can be seen as Dany experiencing madness, but I can't say that it's going to be permanent insanity.

A lot of it depends on the empathy of the people around her and since Jon is a wet blanket and Tyrion is useless, outlook is not so good.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Kate47

[SNeaker]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Varys said, "Cersei needs to be destroyed, but if we attack King's Landing with Drogon and the Unsullied and the Dothraki, tens of thousands of innocents will die"

How do you destroy Cersei without attacking King's Landing? Even if you besiege the city, thousands will likely die due to starvation and disease before people rise up and kill her.
 

Varys knows this as well, so it's a little precious and inconsistent of him to argue they should somehow magically destroy Cersei.

Of course, inconsistency has lately been Varys's forte. Last season he told Daenerys and Tyrion that he was justified turning on King Robert because Robert had no interest in being king. This season Varys asked Tyrion, "Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule?"

As it is, the attack went remarkably well, and there's no evidence that Varys foresaw Daenerys suddenly going crazy once the bells rang.

Dany had the worst, dumbest advisors in the world.

No one ever gave her an alternative way of taking King's Landing while minimizing casualties. They were just like "erm, no, you can't. That would require death! Let's take Casterly Rock instead and waste time doing this and that and blah blah." If Dany went mad and wanted to burn it all down this episode, maybe it's because even down two dragons and half her armies it took  her all of 5 minutes to take King's Landing, something she could have done before losing all her loved ones if she hadn't listened to these morons.

And these supposedly brilliant men (one of whom has a flock of "little birds) who know all about the Lannisters and all about KL -- not one of them could come up with a scheme to take down Cersei by some other method if they didn't want to storm the city? Useless. Utterly useless, stupid men.

That's not even getting into the fact that they never even attempted any kind of PR. Dany thinks "the people" don't like her? What people? She barely interacted with any people. The xenophobic, treasonous Tarlys? The racist Northerners? No one ever tried a little bit of Margaery style strategy to gain favor among the populace that was already inclined to hate Cersei? Maybe instead of plotting behind her back, her dumbass aides and advisors could have comforted a mourning Dany, talked to her about strategy to win the love of the people just as she did in Essos, and done their fucking jobs.

Everything that happened on this show was only able to happen because every single character went stupid.

Edited May 15, 2019 by SNeaker

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I recall that in season 1 Varys was conspiring with Illyrio to bring Viserys with Drogo’s khalisar over to Westeros. Viserys. And a Dothraki hoard. Apparently, his concern for Targaryen madness only applies to Daenerys because Viserys was more of a loose cannon and sppeared closer to madness, but Varys thought he would be A-okay as a King as compared to Robert. 

Also, as I recall, Varys is the one who when convening with Elyria Sand and Lady Olenna actually says the words “fire and blood” in relation to Daenerys not as a warning but as a promise.  

So when did he decide that fire and blood is bad and Daenerys must be stopped even if he had to poison her? 

We don't know what Varys' plans were with the Dothraki. Varys is a Targaryen loyalist who believed in Dany at one point and now he doesn't. He sees Dany at this stage in her career, teetering on the edge of madness with enough firepower to reduce a million people to ashes. Viserys never had that capability. And we know that bookwise, Varys has his own candidate he wants on the throne who was raised differently from the other Targaryens. 

The Elaria and Olenna scene is him working on the clock. Varys is just telling them what they want to hear to get them to ally with Dany. He's not actually pushing for what Dany is doing, burning all of King's Landing TO THE GROUND. He understands there needs to be a certain amount of ruthlessness. He himself isn't a good guy. But what he doesn't support is Caligula-level destruction on a massive scale. It's just too far for him, morally, and as dark as he is, his reservations were proved right. 

[SNeaker]

5 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

We don't know what Varys' plans were with the Dothraki. Varys is a Targaryen loyalist who believed in Dany at one point and now he doesn't. He sees Dany at this stage in her career, teetering on the edge of madness with enough firepower to reduce a million people to ashes. Viserys never had that capability. And we know that bookwise, Varys has his own candidate he wants on the throne who was raised differently from the other Targaryens. 

The Elaria and Olenna scene is him working on the clock. Varys is just telling them what they want to hear to get them to ally with Dany. He's not actually pushing for what Dany is doing, burning all of King's Landing TO THE GROUND. He understands there needs to be a certain amount of ruthlessness. He himself isn't a good guy. But what he doesn't support is Caligula-level destruction on a massive scale. It's just too far for him, morally, and as dark as he is, his reservations were proved right. 

Teetering on the edge of madness? Because she was sad her friends died? Because she watched Jon get credit for her work? Maybe he should have stepped in and shown her some support and raised her up and reminded everyone who saved them?

He had no reason to believe she would destroy the whole city. She destroyed the whole city because treasonous turncoats were scheming behind her back. All of the people who thought she was mad before she was mad DROVE her mad.

Edited May 15, 2019 by SNeaker

[ursula]

52 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Ned Stark didn't want to be Hand of the King, but he took responsibility for it.

How well did he do as a ruler who did not want to rule?

The show pretty much switched genres to make the Insanity!Dany work. Nothing in the last 2 seasons fits into the narrative of the world we've been presented with. 

4 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

Maybe instead of plotting behind her back, her dumbass aides and advisors could have comforted a mourning Dany, talked to her about strategy to win the love of the people just as she did in Essos, and done their fucking jobs.

Well Varys had already read the script for 8x05 so he knew that she was going to go crazy. 🤣 That's why the "for the people" dude picked the Targaryen who treated his soldiers like pawns over the one who rode into battle to defend them.

6 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

Dany thinks "the people" don't like her? What people?

Dany had the Reach, Dorne and half of the Iron Islands just by virtue of common enemies. Jon had.. the North. Literally no one else in the Seven Kingdoms knew him from Adam and those who did would remember him as Ned Stark's bastard. 

4 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

He had no reason to believe she would destroy the whole city.

He was told in that Raven scroll we saw him burning. The scroll was the 8x05 script. 

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

Also! I'm gonna throw myself into the Dany insanity debate because why not.

So for me, Dany's question of madness requires you to ask if grief is a form of madness. If it is:

A. Is it then temporary madness, due to intensity of grief, and can it be empathized and understood and worked through?

B. Is it the sort of madness that is *not* temporary, cannot be worked through and can then lead to full fledged insanity?

Grief is a bitch. It's awful and monstrous and can make people burn down their lives or make unforgivable decisions without considering consequences. It isolates people, it never really goes away. It's not fun, and it's also not insanity (though it can def open the doors to insanity).

Grief is def def a form of madness because it causes people to make decisions and do things that in the moment are entirely logical and sound to them, and then make no sense at all when they are able to clearly reason.

In my opinion, this act is Dany on grief. It can be seen as Dany experiencing madness, but I can't say that it's going to be permanent insanity.

A lot of it depends on the empathy of the people around her and since Jon is a wet blanket and Tyrion is useless, outlook is not so good.

I have a hard time seeing Dany in this episode as being driven by grief specifically. Or at least, grief in the way most people experience it. Because yes, she lost a lot. But she mostly lost it in pursuit of the throne. Even when characters didn't die in the act of putting her on the throne (like Jorah dying at Winterfell), her whole life with them was them helping her to get the throne. So it's a different situation than someone who's just living with people and loving them and then they die. She was intentionally sending everybody into a war to gain a throne for her.

Which doesn't mean she can't be grieving, but it feels like it's a grief that's intentionally avoiding that obvious fact and blaming other people for this not being the triumph she imagined it would be. 

1 minute ago, SNeaker said:

He had no reason to believe she would destroy the whole city. She destroyed the whole city because treasonous turncoats were scheming behind her back. All of the people who thought she was mad before she was mad DROVE her mad.

Saying it's everyone else's fault that she burned a city down because she was sad her friends died erases that her friends were her subjects there to support her in an aggressive war to take over 7 kingdoms. Sure if everyone had behaved in such a way that she'd flown in and taken the city to great acclaim she wouldn't have wound up burning it down or losing her friends, but her friends would also still be alive if they hadn't followed her to the throne. It takes for granted that Dany's ambition for the throne in itself can't be questioned but of course it can be. Almost everybody in the show has had friends and loved ones die and even been schemed against and betrayed in far more extreme ways than Dany without having any such response. 

She put the throne above everything and that was all she had left here so she decided to claim it beyond a shadow of a doubt. She herself stated it pretty clearly: she decided love wasn't an option so she chose fear. Other characters made similar choices and then pulled themselves back. Dany couldn't do that not just because other people pulled away from her but because she ultimately needed to be queen more than anything else.

[Umbelina]

I think Dany had "terrible advisors" is only because the show wanted spectacle and to rush the ending, cram it into the arbitrary number of episodes the showrunners set for themselves.

I wish there was a middle ground between finish this sucker any way we can, and "Where do whore go?" 

So, they made Tyrion and Varys, two of the canniest players in the game suddenly stupid.  They made Jon stupid.  Anything to get this over with!

They, and I will never forgive them for this, ignored all of the personal and heartfelt beats (with the exception of, as usual, Lena and Peter's) that would have made this all really mean something emotionally, instead of just being a great visual spectacle.

If they had spent 1/563839th of the time they spent building an entire KL set, on writing scripts that didn't depend on smart people becoming idiots, and battle plans being nearly hysterically stupid?  If they had PAID OFF one of the biggest secrets ever R+L=J?  and at least let us SEE that impact on the Starks, instead of simply on Dany and politics?  If they had given words and quiet moments to the actors playing Jon and Dany, and made us believe they actually did love each other, the kind of great love it would take to touch viewer's hearts and Dany's enough to turn full mass murderer, or be the final straw in that?  If, if, if.

What was missing here was time, time to show not tell.  They needed another episode at least for that part of things, the emotional character part that many care about just as much if not more than giant battles?  They needed more episodes to make the whole "WAR!" side of this believable unless they were just going to make everyone eat stupid pills.  Which?  Is what they did.

So, character writing?  Massive fail for me.  It doesn't bother me that much, because at least we have the Cliffs Notes about GRRM's ending, and I can fill the rest of that stuff in myself, and WOO!  After 23 years an ENDING!

For the stupidity pill stuff?  Just annoying, because the only reason for this was because they wanted to be done with this sucker.  So, shame on them.  Do I care about logical battle plans and losses leading Dany to burn KL?  Honestly, not really, I will undoubtedly be bored stiff most of the time in the books if they ever come.  I won't bother to fan wank that part, because it could go a thousand ways there and be more satisfying that the show version (but not so cool to look at obviously.) 

For Dany specifically?  Do I believe this is her end?  Yes, I do, I have sadly thought this would be the ending for Dany since she kept fucking up in Meereen, and there were many other clues that she was a fanatic, and had a massive savior complex.  I don't believe in "saviors" so it was hard to believe in Dany either.

Do I think in the books we will understand her more?  Yes, of course, for the reasons above and because she's a POV character, we will be with her through each thought.  Even for those who love Dany and hoped she would rule justly and beautifully and sit on the throne at the end though?  The books, if they ever come, will convince people that no, that is not a good ending for the people.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[Hana Chan]

10 minutes ago, ursula said:

Dany had the Reach, Dorne and half of the Iron Islands just by virtue of common enemies. Jon had.. the North. Literally no one else in the Seven Kingdoms knew him from Adam and those who did would remember him as Ned Stark's bastard. 

Jon had been declared KITN, and that brought not only the largest single territory in Westeros, but also a close alliance with the Vale and the Riverlands (through his sisters). He also was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. While he might had, at one time, only been known as Eddard's bastard, he'd gained a lot of fame since. Even Ramsey had an unwilling respect for him, both as a leader and a swordsman.

Dany's control of Dorne came through an illegitimate source, as the Sands killed their prince and temporarily took control. Yara wasn't yet in charge of the Iron Islands and commanded only a portion of the fleet that was in rebellion from Euron. And Olenna, as much as I loved her, was the last remnant of a house that went extinct the moment she passed. Dany's Westeroi allies were very thin, in reality.

And at this point, I'm going to guess that she'll have little if any support from anyone in Westeros after her display of pyrotechnics at KL. Looking at the promo for the finale, we only see Dany's troops being made of up of the Unsullied and Dothraki. No Westerosi soldiers seem to be in attendance. And Drogon.

She's not going to be a queen but a foreign occupier. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

She's not going to be a queen but a foreign occupier.

Which is exactly what her ancestors were.