S05.E15: Fighting Fire With Fire

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Oliver faces his biggest challenge yet as mayor when Vigilante attacks him; Felicity continues down her dark path with Helix; Diggle leads the team in a mission to stop Vigilante once and for all.

[calliope1975]

I admit, I tuned back in to see the promo and caught the last scene. 

I don't care what happens to her. Fail of a cliffhanger. 

Things I liked: The Delicity scenes. The Thelicity scene. 

And I'm done with my list. 

[BkWurm1]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this episode.  Lots happened but Oliver is still so stupid and I don't care about Susan.  At least we have supporting evidence that Oliver went to Susan while his brain wasn't medically optimum.  

[catrox14]

Oliver is really this dumb. But I'm still holding out for HT!Oliver

Being so upset about his stupid GF who played him and was going to out him etc.

I like Chase being Prometheus but it feels like a bit of a retcon

Oliver you stupid stupid moron

[Mellowyellow]

Did she die? Did the rank bitch die??? Was there any Olicity at all ?

[Lady Calypso]

I'm just rooting for Adrian to kill her and then we can never see her again.

Delicity scenes were great. The reveal of Prometheus was surprising in the sense that they did it at a time when people were probably not expecting it. 

Yeah, that's about it for me as well.

[BkWurm1]

I remember back when Chase was first introduced that lots of people caught that line about Oliver stealing his girlfriend as a clue that he was Prometheus but then there was just so much to support he was Vigilante.  I am kind of loving the stalker vibe though.  He WANTS to be Oliver's friend even while he wants to see him destroyed.  I like the edge of crazy.  

[Jediknight]

Holy crap, so Vigilante's going to be the big reveal.  I don't think anybody saw that coming.  Revealing Prometheus before Vigilante, that was just a shock.  Now I'm saying that Tommy is Vigilante, since he's obviously not Prometheus unless they say there's more than one.

Moira found a way to come back from the dead to possess Thea, no doubt about it.

[EmilyBettFan]

That episode was a stanky mess.

[Scribbles]

A storm knocked out signal for the bit just between the team setting off the proximity alarm Vigilante set up and when Mayor Queen says GA went rogue.  Did they unmask Vigilante or just interrupt his attempt to shot and he got away?

[KenyaJ]

Kill her! I mean, seriously, are we supposed to care that Susan is being threatened. Because I don’t have words to adequately express how much I do not care about anything involving or concerning Susan. And sadly, I no longer care about anything involving or concerning Oliver either. He can go rot.

Hmm, more gun violence this week.

Felicity listened to “Keeping It 1600”? (And now, presumably to “Pod Save America.”) Just when I thought I couldn’t love her more.

I also loved Diggle and Felicity remembering that they know each other and used to be (are?) friends. I love them together so much. 

I feel like the show wants me to feel bad for Curtis that Paul is divorcing him, but frankly, he deserves it.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Did she die? Did the rank bitch die??? Was there any Olicity at all ?

No, just a kidnapping.  

Barely.  Oliver had Felicity fix the Susan problem aka got her job back.

[calliope1975]

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Did she die? Did the rank bitch die??? Was there any Olicity at all ?

She is alive. Oliver asked Felicity to help Rayporter. From your posts here, you may want to skip that scene. ? ETA: I was flummoxed during that scene so I didn't listen to the dialogue. I amend my earlier sentence that he wanted help getting back together with Sues. 

2 minutes ago, Scribbles said:

A storm knocked out signal for the bit just between the team setting off the proximity alarm Vigilante set up and when Mayor Queen says GA went rogue.  Did they unmask Vigilante or just interrupt his attempt to shot and he got away?

Yep, just interrupted him and he got away. Now, Vigilante's identity is the mystery. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by calliope1975

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

I feel like the show wants me to feel bad for Curtis that Paul is divorcing him, but frankly, he deserves it.

There was a clueless quality to that plot line that doesn't make sense.  Are they just rushing to get rid of Paul?  Given that I really thought he was dying at some point, I guess this is kinder but feels kind of pointless bringing him back on screen.  Could have just mailed him the papers.  Why is that part of the cliffhanger?  

[BkWurm1]

So Diggle has a heart to heart with Felicity and she drops her blackmail plot with Thea but then Oliver thanks everyone and she decides she needs to do more and and dive in deeper.  Helix will clearly be more morally dubious than Felicity is happy with but her motives are certainly right.  

[Chaser]

Are the cliffhangers really Curtis's marriage and Reporter's kidnapping?

Im genuinely confused...

[Thundercatmary]

I can't even articulate how angry Oliver made me going to Felicity to help with Susan, she obviously didn't want to do it but he had to push so ofc she agreed sigh.

[Mellowyellow]

8 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

She is alive. Oliver asked Felicity to help Rayporter. From your posts here, you may want to skip that scene. ? ETA: I was flummoxed during that scene so I didn't listen to the dialogue. I amend my earlier sentence that he wanted help getting back together with Sues. 

Yep, just interrupted him and he got away. Now, Vigilante's identity is the mystery. 

Is there enough Felicity to make up for the rank bitch?

Is he still in love with the festering ulcer?

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Are the cliffhangers really Curtis's marriage and Reporter's kidnapping?

Im genuinely confused...

And Felicity joining Helix.  

[calliope1975]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Is there enough Felicity to make up for the rank bitch?

Is he still in love with the festering ulcer?

There are some great Delicity scenes. 

I nope'd out of the episode towards the end so I presume Oilver and Sues talked and are back together, but I don't really know and definitely don't care. 

[BkWurm1]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

Is there enough Felicity to make up for the rank bitch?

Is he still in love with the festering ulcer?

Um, he has an head injury and his doctor said he needed a girlfriend.  What is this love you speak of?

Felicity is in a number of scenes. 

My personal head canon for Susan saying (now) she will keep his secret since he's doing so much good is that she also knows how easily Oliver or any of his friends could ruin her life and she just got it back so she's all about playing nice.  

Just now, calliope1975 said:

I nope'd out of the episode towards the end so I presume Oilver and Sues talked and are back together, but I don't really know and definitely don't care. 

They almost talked about getting back together but there were smiles that said what the outcome of that conversation would be.  Not sure if he was supposed to have finished it off screen or if they were just interrupted and then Susan kidnapped leaving their status in limbo.

It's very likely if she lives (she probably will) that she will back off the relationship because of the life he leads.    

[JJ928]

Am I supposed to care Suzie is in danger? Because I don't.

[LeighAn]

It wasn't that bad, underwhelming and I can't form an option on whether I liked it or not.

I do see the Ray/Sysan parallels with Felicity/Oliver but I don't like that unlike season 3 it isn't undercut with Olicity scenes except that this is the first direct indication in a long time we've gotten that Felicity is not okay with Olivers relationship and is still conflicted in her feelings about Oliver. 

I know people are going hate on Oliver and I'm not thrilled my self but this is basically almost an exact redux of 3.17 with Ray. Where he was presented as the good guy and wronged party, where Felicity plead for her relationship with Ray to Oliver and where Oliver went out to fix the relationship on her behalf. And Felicity copped hate from the comic stans and Reddit in that episode to.

This is the grin and bare it part of pointless stall relationships. I get that. I know Susan is not going to stick around and I see the set up for Olicity to reunite and I can watch the show with the acceptance that characters can be dumb as door knobs with out taking it a personal slight on my soul.

But in season 3 there was a depth to Olicitys interactions that's missing because oh gee we need to find something for Curtis to do or a reason why Dinah or Rene are on the team. 

We should have seen the conversation between Felicity and Oliver where she told him she fixed it, and though I liked the Delicity scenes we should have seen something like that with Oliver, and then seen Oliver come and thank Felicity for helping Susan like the cute check kiss in 3x17 just to give that depth.

But I can see how this is all playing into Felicity being pushed deeper into Helix. That perhaps her coming across as isolated from the rest of the team is intentional to get her to the point where she choose to join them. How she needs to officially join Helix to take her dark arch up a notch.

The stall is just annoying.

I liked the impeachment trial and how it was handled and Oliver taking the Dark Knight route and sacrificing Green Arrow for the good of the city- I think it presents some interesting story line opurtunities. I thought for a minute Id been absolved from shoe eating and he would reveal who he was.

I really did not see the Chase/Pronetheus twist and yet I did get vibes this ep and last that he was shady to the hilt and was probably involved somehow but it was still a shock when it was revealed. I guess I'd just grown so accustomed to spec of him being vigilante. Also I liked the Prometheus vs Vigilante fight. 

Optimistic spec recSusan Willams hopefully she will break up with Oliver or he breaks it off with her due to the danger aspect after Adrian kidnaps her.

[statsgirl]

The Good: 

The Prometheus reveal. It's beyond time.  And I like how conflicted Chase is about Oliver.

Thea's machinations.

Diggle and Felicity scene and Diggle remembering that Felicity was in a relationship with Malone.

The Bad;

Thea leaving because Oliver guilted her into it

Oliver anytime he's around Susan.  And the cliff-hanger that they are still together.

Paul divorcing Curtis because it's such a downer.

22 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I admit, I tuned back in to see the promo and caught the last scene. 

I don't care what happens to her. Fail of a cliffhanger. 

I hope he blackmails her or does something to show she's in cahoots with him.

18 minutes ago, Scribbles said:

A storm knocked out signal for the bit just between the team setting off the proximity alarm Vigilante set up and when Mayor Queen says GA went rogue.  Did they unmask Vigilante or just interrupt his attempt to shot and he got away?

Just interrupted his two attempts.

I wonder if Talia is the Vigilante.

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

My personal head canon for Susan saying (now) she will keep his secret since he's doing so much good is that she also knows how easily Oliver or any of his friends could ruin her life and she just got it back so she's all about playing nice.  

Yep, that would be a really good explanation.  Or maybe Prometheus is threatening her with his "he's all mine" schtick.

[LeighAn]

24 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I remember back when Chase was first introduced that lots of people caught that line about Oliver stealing his girlfriend as a clue that he was Prometheus but then there was just so much to support he was Vigilante.  I am kind of loving the stalker vibe though.  He WANTS to be Oliver's friend even while he wants to see him destroyed.  I like the edge of crazy.  

He's sooooooo Kylo Ren cray cray.

[apinknightmare]

I hope the payoff of spending 12 episodes setting Susan up as a shady asshole when she wasn't and we ultimately had no reason to think she would be was worth making Oliver look like the biggest fool alive.

[BunsenBurner]

Oliver is an idiot. Rene can just leave he is worthless. Susan needs to disappear. Didn't like how they got rid of Thea. Felicity and Diggle interaction was good. Felicity is going to get hurt down the line. Curtis seemed a bit more tolerable. Did not like the reference to John F. Kennedy about the 6th floor lone gunman. It irked me in way too many ways. To compare, even if in the most minor way, that he is like JFK is absurd.

[benteen]

I legitimately didn't expect Chase to be Prometheus.  That was a legitimate surprise and a good one.  Liked the fight with Vigilante too.

Susan was (I guess is) a corrupt reporter who slept with Oliver to get her story.  I don't see why Thea had to make it right.  I thought Thea's turn in politics was otherwise interesting.

Quinten should have been IRATE with Thea for even suggesting that they pin the blame on an honest cop.

The restaurant that Curtis went to was a redress of the Flash café.

[mtlchick]

While I had a feeling Chase was Prometheus I wasn't expecting it mid way through the show so I don't mind the ensuing conflict that happens with the reveal.  But my sister and I had different thoughts about another scene:

Sister: Paul is going to ask for a divorce.

Me:  So they repurposed Jitters for this?

The other scene was me saying "So his doctor is telling Oliver to get a fuck buddy?"

[Soulfire]

 

 

 

 

*grumbles something about how Felicity's dress is more on point than Oliver's head is*

[Chaser]

Ooooh pretty smart perfect Felicity.

[lemotomato]

3 minutes ago, Soulfire said:

 

 

 

 

*grumbles something about how Felicity's dress is more on point than Oliver's head is*

She looks gorgeous as usual. The wardrobe department must love Emily; her outfits have been the best thing about this season.

[Mellowyellow]

32 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

It wasn't that bad, underwhelming and I can't form an option on whether I liked it or not.

I do see the Ray/Sysan parallels with Felicity/Oliver but I don't like that unlike season 3 it isn't undercut with Olicity scenes except that this is the first direct indication in a long time we've gotten that Felicity is not okay with Olivers relationship and is still conflicted in her feelings about Oliver. 

Oh what happened ? Did she say something?

I need more info on how much Felicity there is before I risk watching it and seeing Cancerous Mole's gave onscreen.

ETA: Omg I just saw her pink dress. I must have that  dress!!!!!!!

Edited March 2, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Oh what happened ? Did she say something?

I need more info on how much Felicity there is before I risk watching it and seeing Cancerous Mole's gave onscreen.

ETA: Omg I just saw her pink dress. I must have that  dress!!!!!!!

You really need to watch the scene because it's not exactly what she said but how she said it if that makes sense. 

Pretty much I'd compare it to how Stephen acted in the scene in 3x16 where he sees Felicity and Ray all cuddly and he looked like he wanted the ground to swallow him up.

Well Emily played Felicity as being upset when referring to Susan as Olivers girlfriend and like she  wanted to be a thousand yards from this conversation.

Edited March 2, 2017 by LeighAn

[tennisgurl]

Show...stop trying to make Susan happen. Its not going to happen.

[Chaser]

Fetch is going to happen before she does.

[apinknightmare]

34 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

Me:  So they repurposed Jitters for this?

 

Jitters deserves better.

[Cthulhudrew]

So Paul sets up a date just to serve divorce papers? That's cold, man. On the plus side, though, Jitters also does dinner!

I have to admit that I did not see that Prometheus reveal coming. And it was done in such an offhand, understated way. That was cool. Usually something like that is its own entire episode ending or at least commercial break cliffhanger. I like that they didn't oversell it.

I suppose this means that Vigilante is going to turn out to be Evelyn, though? The stunt actor playing him/her this episode seemed to have decidedly feminine movements at times.

Susan forgave and forgot all too easily, natch. Would have been nice if she'd at least pressed on the Green Arrow confession, even if she really knows the secret already.

[Hiveminder]

Well, that wasn't as bad as the live post thread lead me to believe. Still, the best thing about this episode was Rene's facial expressions when Curtis was getting his expectations up. Like he was thinking 'you poor delusional fool. You're about to get your heart broken.' 

And Paul. Inviting your estranged husband to dinner at what appears to be a fairly romantic restaurant to surprise him with divorce papers? That's cold dude. 

Editing this to add that I'm half afraid that I'm your friend comment is the lead up to Chase single white femaling Oliver. That's some crazy obsession right there. It's probably best for Felicity's health that she and Oliver aren't together right now. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Hiveminder

[benteen]

I call bullshit on Oliver not being impeached when his excuse was “I didn’t tell you about the violent and dangerous vigilante turning bad after he murdered a cop to protect you from the knowledge that he was an evil violent and dangerous vigilante cop-killer.  Then again, this is the city that regularly hides news that mass murderers escape from prison from the public.  This is also the city where the board of directors a major corporation rewarded a CEO (Isabel) when she deliberately devalued the stock of the company that she was running.  Star City is all kind of messed up.

Will go back to it again…Quentin should have been FURIOUS at Thea for suggesting they frame an innocent cop like Malone.  I don’t care how close he had grown with Thea…this would have been enough for him to have threatened to leave the team and his job.  But again, this is a show that writes its characters to fit its scripts and doesn't write its scripts to fit its characters.

Edited March 2, 2017 by benteen

[ohjoy]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I remember back when Chase was first introduced that lots of people caught that line about Oliver stealing his girlfriend as a clue that he was Prometheus but then there was just so much to support he was Vigilante.  I am kind of loving the stalker vibe though.  He WANTS to be Oliver's friend even while he wants to see him destroyed.  I like the edge of crazy.  

I was one of those people -- and the Vigilante vibes totally threw me off. So yay! I might actually watch parts of this one before deleting it from dvr (unlike the last two episodes).

[Cthulhudrew]

37 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

The other scene was me saying "So his doctor is telling Oliver to get a fuck buddy?"

Not gonna lie, I thought she was propositioning him for a minute.

Also- does Rene wear those threadbare sweaters as a fashion statement, or is that costuming's attempt to get us to see just how down on his luck he is outside of his vigilante career?

And who wants to bet Felicity's joining HIVE in order to go undercover and root out their evil. Because of Dig's speech, of course.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

I call bullshit on Oliver not being impeached when his excuse was “I didn’t tell you about the violent and dangerous vigilante turning bad after he murdered a cop to protect you from the knowledge that he was an evil violent and dangerous vigilante cop-killer.  

Right? "I wanted you to keep looking up to that cop killer as a hero!"

[Cthulhudrew]

3 minutes ago, benteen said:

Will go back to it again…Quentin should have been FURIOUS at Thea for suggesting they frame an innocent cop like Malone.  I don’t care how close he had grown with Thea…this would have been enough for him to have threatened to leave the team and his job.  But again, this is a show that writes its characters to fit its scripts and doesn't write its scripts to fit its characters.

Yes. That bugged me, too. Not only that he wasn't upset about it, but that he didn't even comment on it when she was done laying out her case in a friendly manner. Those two may be close, but yeah- he should have raised some kind of hell.

Are they writing Thea out? They haven't seemed to know what to do with her this season, but that would really suck, as Thea's character is probably the single most nuanced and well developed character in this entire series. And while I was iffy on her performance back in season 1, Willa has really grown into the role well.

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

I call bullshit on Oliver not being impeached when his excuse was “I didn’t tell you about the violent and dangerous vigilante turning bad after he murdered a cop to protect you from the knowledge that he was an evil violent and dangerous vigilante cop-killer.  Then again, this is the city that regularly hides news that mass murderers escape from prison from the public.  This is also the city where a major corporation that rewarded a CEO (Isabel) when she deliberately devalued the stock of the company she was running.  Star City is all kind of messed up.

Will go back to it again…Quentin should have been FURIOUS at Thea for suggesting they frame an innocent cop like Malone.  I don’t care how close he had grown with Thea…this would have been enough for him to have threatened to leave the team and his job.  But again, this is a show that writes its characters to fit its scripts and doesn't write its scripts to fit its characters.

That and the plan to blackmail Collins with his wife's suicide were too much Moira. I hope Thea goes wherever Roy is, and does whatever she needs to do to be at peace. 

[way2interested]

For an annoying episode, there were actually a bunch of good moments:

• Portions of Oliver and Felicity's early conversation
• Diggle and Felicity
• Running gag about Curtis' T-spheres
• Crazy Chase being Prometheus and fighting Vigilante
• Thea in general (I actually kind of liked her last scene with Oliver in the parallels to their similar conversations in 423/508)
• Tinah and Lance doing their jobs
• The Dark Knight-ing plot (execution is spotty once again, but on paper I would admit being interested)
• Oliver's semi-growth when he acknowledged the team's helpfulness
• The dramatic Prometheus theme in the background when Chase goes to kidnap Susan (idk why, I lol'd at it)

It's so weird how one thing (Susan) can actually bring a majority of that stuff down, especially when she wasn't even in the episode all that much. Don't get me wrong, the whole impeachment plot was messy as well, but I could at least handle that as a "because plot" scenario, but that tied with Susan...not even all of those good moments can completely save it.

[Mellowyellow]

21 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

You really need to watch the scene because it's not exactly what she said but how she said it if that makes sense. 

Pretty much I'd compare it to how Stephen acted in the scene in 3x16 where he sees Felicity and Ray all cuddly and he looked like he wanted the ground to swallow him up.

Well Emily played Felicity as being upset when referring to Susan as Olivers girlfriend and like she  wanted to be a thousand yards from this conversation.

Thank you for patiently answering all my questions! You're a gem!

I will watch this tonight with the help of pie. That evil Goblin bitchface will not stop me from watching my beloved Felicity!

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

So Paul sets up a date just to serve divorce papers? That's cold, man. On the plus side, though, Jitters also does dinner!

That's what I thought. It seemed pretty heartless. He should have used a process server.

[SleepDeprived]

There was a good couple of years there when Wednesdays was my favorite day and I was excited to watch Arrow. That's long done. Apart from Felicity/Diggle and Thea/Felicity (and the reveal of Chase as Prometheus, which I didn't expect at all), I thought this episode was so exasperating because I just do not understand this Oliver Queen anymore. Why does he keep choosing the reporter he's only been dating for what--3 weeks?-- and who slept with him so she could out him as GA over Thea, his sister who was trying to help keep his (and all who work with him's) secret and who he literally brought back from the dead/has put above everyone else for the past 3/4 years? Is it Susan's sparkling personality? Is it her dazzling smile? Was their horizontal tango just that good? But his face after the deed suggested otherwise, tho? He looked like he was high-key wishing for the ground to open up and swallow him whole, tho?

Me at Oliver, all the time this season it seems:

[benteen]

1 hour ago, SleepDeprived said:

There was a good couple of years there when Wednesdays was my favorite day and I was excited to watch Arrow. That's long done. Apart from Felicity/Diggle and Thea/Felicity (and the reveal of Chase as Prometheus, which I didn't expect at all), I thought this episode was so exasperating because I just do not understand this Oliver Queen anymore. Why does he keep choosing the reporter he's only been dating for what--3 weeks?-- and who slept with him so she could out him as GA over Thea, his sister who was trying to help keep his (and all who work with him's) secret and who he literally brought back from the dead/has put above everyone else for the past 3/4 years? Is it Susan's sparkling personality? Is it her dazzling smile? Was their horizontal tango just that good? But his face after the deed suggested otherwise, tho? He looked like he was high-key wishing for the ground to open up and swallow him whole, tho?

Me at Oliver, all the time this season it seems:

It seems to me that Arrow always starts off good and then become a train wreck as the season goes on.  Not just the flashbacks but they drag out their overarching storyline to the very end and that's usually way too long.  Reminds me of the Marvel Netflix shows, which I love but often go a little long at 13 episodes.  This show would probably benefit more from a 13-episode season but that will never happen.

Edited March 2, 2017 by benteen