S06.E11: Tougher Than the Rest

[Mitch]

Episode was an improvement on the first half of the season.. even last season...the only problem was, while I liked to that the writers were working hard to course correct, it was easy to see their heavy lifting. Maybe things will be smoother going forward. 

Okay, its a dream world and nobody is real but Robin is..please, please let this be a trick...(haven't Regina and Emma learned that bringing someone back from an alternate reality to save them is nothing but trouble) or that Robin is totally not interested in Regina...or he slowly disappears as he doesnt really exist! I can see Regina wanting to...if I saw an alternate reality version of my partner who would have to be left to be tortured by Rump I would bring him back too..that makes sense..what doesnt make sense is Emma suggesting it in the first place???Its like the Dr. Jekyl potion..I can see Regina taking it, she goes for the easy out and she relies on magic...but for Snow and especially Emma to agree. Emma is supposed to be the voice of the audience, and she should have been "Regina, bad sh*t happens when we do this kind of stuff..he isnt real." And really, since this is Emma's wish world, doesnt it all evaporate once she leaves it. Is it "real" now? Have the writers decided?

Thank God the first round of the usual battle in main street took place quickly and I am okay with Gideon as a villian who maybe isnt. This sets up a good bit of tension between the Rumps and the rest of the crowd..and he can be redeemed fairly easily..(though they better explain his reasoning soon.) I know that the Snow actress wants time off but there has to be a better way to explain..the sleeping curse is really, really worn out its welcome, as had Twu Lurves kiss which seems to be a dime a dozen!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I wasn't kidding when I said it was boring last night.  It was so boring that apparently I forgot to watch the end.  No, seriously.  So I watched it today, (while sipping on my chamomile tea with honey).  But I backed up a little further to rewatch the old Hook scene to see if I find the comedy others apparently have.  

Nope.

In fact, Emma displayed more compassion for Not!Pinocchio than Not!Hook (who, as others have noted, back in the Real World is her True Love) so that was odd.  

Also, after the chisel was broken and Not!Pinocchio said he needed Magic to carve the tree - was I the only one wondering why Emma, who has magic!, didn't, oh, I don't know...magically fix the darn thing?

I wasn't bothered by Not!Rumple dumping Not!Belle's bones on the ground.  After all, it's not like they were real or anything.  Right?

Loved Hook's expression when Belle (Real!Belle) came to talk to him and David and said (about Gideon) "It's not his fault."  Yup.  Hook knows better than anyone else on the show that one's choices are they're own fault.  In fact, Hook might be the only person on the show to know that.  It was interesting that when Belle said she came to (them) because she trusted (them), she did include Hook.  At first it appeared as if she were only speaking to David, but that glance in Hook's direction at that moment lets us know that she also trusts Hook.  I think it's pretty cool; and I really like that she does.  

Yeah, when "Regina's Robin" died, she choose to believe in hope.  And that's why she wanted to kill Hook when he came back from the Underworld.  Did the writers forget we heard her say that?

I really don't understand how or why the tree wardrobe would work anyway.  To get from one real realm to another is one thing.  But the WishVerse wasn't real.  Not really real.  So why would a Not!Real! Magic Tree Wardrobe get Emma and Regina back to a Real World?

Why would Emma not slice Gideon's throat because Rumple begged her not to?  Wouldn't it have been more poignant coming from Belle?

I liked Emma's reunion with Charming and Hook.  Her relief that her dad was still alive sounded genuine at least.  

Was this episode really a "course correction"?  I'm not so sure.  I think that remains to be seen.  

[PixiePaws1]

Usually the next day or two after an episode airs there are fanfics galore enhancing or 'fixing' scenes....today....not a single one on FF or AO3.....read into that what you will...

[justmythoughts]

After reading your comments I should have been prepared. But I was not.

Did the authors thought that making Emma seem shallow and unatached to wishworld Hook would be fun? 

Why Rumple always know it all? Even in the wish world.

After with all of you basically: August is a crappy friend, hás always been, Belle is weird, Charming should have awaken Snow, wishworld Robin is another rewritting the story for the sake of Saint Regina. Did I forget anything? Oh nevermind, nothing is going to change, A&E are the love it or leave it type. 

[KingOfHearts]

With all the inconsistencies the Wish Realm has, you really just have to write it off to reconcile anything. The wardrobe could hold three people because Wish Realm, Rumple knows all because of Wish Realm, etc. If you look at it as an alternate universe that accurately materializes the Evil Queen's wish, then you're going to have a bad time. At the end of the day, it's all completely arbitrary. 

The Wish Realm was less offensive in this episode than the previous, but it was still a waste of time. Emma could have spoke to August in Storybrooke and come to the same conclusions. She really didn't learn anything that only the Wish Realm could provide, which is tragic because its entire basis gave her a different perspective on things. A&E said the lesson was "the grass is always greener", and as low hanging as that fruit was, not even that was shown. Emma never said, "Boy, it's better to be the Savior so I can protect my loved ones!" Even though that would have been stupid, at least the Wish Realm would have had a point. (Beyond OQ angst.)

Edited March 7, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

1 hour ago, justmythoughts said:

Did the authors thought that making Emma seem shallow and unatached to wishworld Hook would be fun? 

Well, that scene is one of Kitsis' favorite in the entire series, so yes.

But if it really was his favorite scene, why make it so short? If he really enjoyed it as much as he claims, did it not occur to him that he could have based the entire episode around that concept? That there was nothing stopping him from having Old Hook and Emma interact for longer than 90 seconds?

[Worsel]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

Why would Emma not slice Gideon's throat because Rumple begged her not to?  Wouldn't it have been more poignant coming from Belle?

 

I think it may have been because Emma was there with Rumple when Neal died and shared his grief; she watched his first son die, and did not want to cause the second son to die.  

I'm confused about how Gideon managed to immobilize Rumple with the others, even though Rumple is supposed to be the most powerful darkest of the dark ones ever. 

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, Worsel said:

I'm confused about how Gideon managed to immobilize Rumple with the others, even though Rumple is supposed to be the most powerful darkest of the dark ones ever. 

I guess Gideon is even more powerful than the darkest of the dark ones ever. So why is it that Gideon needs to kill Emma to become the Savior again? You don't gain any cool magic by being a Savior, all you get is a bunch of people complaining to you that they need help and a death sentence.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, Curio said:

You don't gain any cool magic by being a Savior, all you get is a bunch of people complaining to you that they need help and a death sentence.

Leroy.  You get Leroy running around shouting about the next catastrophe when you're the savior.  Gideon is just jealous.

Or he wants that cool light magic like Regina sometimes has when it's convenient but can still use dark magic too because she's so redeemed now.

12 minutes ago, Worsel said:

I think it may have been because Emma was there with Rumple when Neal died and shared his grief; she watched his first son die, and did not want to cause the second son to die.  

Ah...good point.  I'd forgotten that.  Or burned it from my memory...

[Camera One]

Regina never did find out why Robin never aged, did she?  Why was it again?  The entire Sherwood Forest isn't affected by time?

And Rumple's jails don't have a magical lock?  Why didn't Robin escape the last time he was captured?

Edited March 8, 2017 by Camera One

[Worsel]

31 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Regina never did find out why Robin never aged, did she?  Why was it again?  The entire Sherwood Forest isn't affected by time?

And Rumple's jails don't have a magical lock?  Why didn't Robin escape the last time he was captured?

Wish!Sherwood Forest is special...time runs differently there...oh wait!  Black Fairy's Dark Realm already has that excuse. 

Maybe Wish!Robin has a magical lock pick instead of a magical bow :)

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I really don't understand how or why the tree wardrobe would work anyway.  To get from one real realm to another is one thing.  But the WishVerse wasn't real.  Not really real.  So why would a Not!Real! Magic Tree Wardrobe get Emma and Regina back to a Real World?

That is a very good point. They weren't going from an actual realm to another realm. It wasn't the kind of place you could get to through a portal. It was closer to the AU from the end of season 4, an artificial construct rather than a place. It wasn't a world that had been existing all along and would continue existing. It had only existed for a few minutes before Regina got there (even if Emma had a lifetime of memories -- not that this ever came up), and only existed for maybe a few hours. It probably ceased to exist when Emma was gone. Incidentally, how was Emma able to become the Savior again and be that in that world? I guess it depends on how the wish was parsed. Was it that she never became the Savior -- which would mean that she was initially in the place where that came about, but remained not the Savior even after she left, unless the wish was undone -- or was it that she was in the place where she never became the Savior -- meaning that she was the Savior the whole time she was there, but she just didn't know it until she remembered? At any rate, you would think that portal-type travel, like a bean or the wardrobe, wouldn't work, that they'd have to find a way to get back to reality, not travel between worlds.

3 hours ago, Curio said:

Well, that scene is one of Kitsis' favorite in the entire series, so yes.

He must have very odd standards because the writing wasn't all that clever, and it was a throwaway scene. Unless maybe he's pulling an Isaac and enjoying making the ridiculously handsome guy playing a heroic character look old, ugly, and unheroic so he feels better about himself in comparison.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Regina never did find out why Robin never aged, did she?  Why was it again?  The entire Sherwood Forest isn't affected by time?

The Sheriff of Nottingham didn't age, either. You could kind of handwave Robin, if he was created from the essence of real Robin or if he was only there because of David's wish for the Evil Queen to get what she deserved. There's no real way to explain the sheriff also not having aged.

[Camera One]

Quote

They weren't going from an actual realm to another realm. It wasn't the kind of place you could get to through a portal.

I think one of Adam or Jane's twitter lessons taught us that once a wish is made, the realm is real.  But the people inside aren't real.  Like how you have a book on a bookshelf but none of the characters inside are real.  Hope that helps!

Edited March 8, 2017 by Camera One

[clairetvfanatic]

19 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Unless maybe he's pulling an Isaac and enjoying making the ridiculously handsome guy playing a heroic character look old, ugly, and unheroic so he feels better about himself in comparison.

This.  This is the reason.

So glad the stupid Wish Realm crap is over.  I never watched 6x10 and skipped 6x11 as well.  For me, these 2 eps never happened.  

[Curio]

So, I have quite a few questions...

Old Hook was missing his left hand in the Wish Realm—this means his history with Milah and Rumple still happened. The fact that Old Hook hasn't been dead for centuries means he went to Neverland in order to live long enough to kill Rumplestiltskin and become a contemporary of Snow and Charming's generation. But Rumple never died—he was locked away in a dungeon. How did Hook not know this? Hook has supposedly been living a few miles away from Rumple for decades at this point. Did Hook hear through the grapevine that Rumple was alive somewhere in the Enchanted Forest, so Hook left Neverland to go skin the crocodile, but somehow Pan betrayed Hook and never allowed him to return to the ageless island? Was that Pan's way of saying, "Screw you, you only get a few decades to kill my son now"? Old Hook had a crocodile tooth hanging from his necklace, did he kill an actual crocodile thinking it was Rumple? How did he kill it? Did Hook jump on the animal's back and stab it to death? Did he track it for weeks while sailing the Jolly? Does Old Hook even have a crew left? Did he have to sail the Jolly by himself? If Hook believed he killed Rumple in crocodile form, is that why he never went back to Neverland because he thought he had finally completed his ultimate revenge on Rumple? But in reality, did Rumple trick Hook by only making him think he killed the Dark One, when all Hook did was kill an ordinary crocodile? It would be a classic Rumple move to screw Hook over by making him believe something false. Hook tends to wear jewelry as a symbol of his past victories—did he wear the crocodile tooth around as a trophy believing it was Rumple this entire time? Or was Old Hook still on his mission to kill Rumple and the tooth was a reminder that his mission wasn't complete? Was Rumple's location under Snow and Charming's castle the reason Hook wanted to rescue Emma? If Hook knew Rumple was locked away under the castle, he'd need a good reason to get onto the premises without the guards arresting him for piracy. Returning the lost princess is a good way to get into the castle to find Rumple. Or, if Hook thought Rumple was dead, was he really that desperate for money that he was willing to rescue the princess and risk getting arrested by the royal family? Or was that his plan all along, to get arrested by the royal family and hopefully wind up in the same dungeon as Rumple? How did Hook even know where to find Emma? Did the royal family send out wanted posters of Emma's face? Is that how Hook was able to recognize her? Did he grab the wanted sign and smudge the ink where it said "Emma" making it look like "Enya"? Is that why he mispronounced her name? Or was he simply that drunk? Or both? Also, how did Captain Hook let himself go when he's always prided himself on his looks? After he killed the non-Rumple crocodile, did Old Hook come to the same conclusion as Season 2 Hook and realized his life was meaningless? Is that when he became an all-out alcoholic and gained a gut after years of wallowing in pity and generally being aimless in life? Was his bravery and gusto in front of Emma and August just an act or does he genuinely think he's still the hottest pirate ever? I know Colin mentioned that he played Old Hook as if he truly believed he was God's gift to women, but there's a big difference between Colin acting it that way and what Old Hook the character genuinely thinks of himself when he looks in the mirror every day. Did he look in the mirror, realize he's old now and one day closer to death with no true purpose in life, no friends or family, not as handsome as he used to be, and decided to numb the pain by getting drunk every day? Does he look at his pudge and say screw it, Milah's gone, I'm not going to pursue any other women, so who cares? Or does he not even realize he's put on a few extra pounds? Why didn't Hook just run Pinocchio through with his sword when Pinocchio wasn't looking? Does Hook still have a code and believe it's bad form to not offer another man the option to duel to the death? Why does Old Hook still value manners if he's generally a slob now? Is it just ingrained in his personality to bow for princesses and say "please" when he asks for his sword? Was Old Hook desperate to relive his glory days by dueling someone? Did he want to impress Princess Emma? Did he think he had a shot with her? Old Hook backed away quickly when he tried to snatch his sword away from Pinocchio and seemed nervous or frightened. Is he afraid of death in his older age? Did he lose Liam's ring that could have protected him? Or, if Hook still believes Rumple is alive under the castle, is he afraid of dying because death means he can't avenge Milah anymore? If that's the case, why attempt to duel a much younger man with only a chisel as a weapon? Is Hook that desperate for a win in life? Why didn't Old Hook react at all to Emma's comment about living together? Shouldn't that have sparked some kind of conversation? Wouldn't that be the thing Old Hook desperately needed to hear in his time of depression? Here's this attractive princess who claims she lives with him in another realm, but not a single word is said? Has Old Hook's barber died? His long hair seemed to be an inconvenience and had to be swatted away from his face. When he fixed his bangs, was that Old Hook being vain about his looks, a natural reflex, or was he hiding the fact that he realized he looked ridiculous trying to lunge for the chisel so he tried to play it off cool? Also, why did Emma immediately think to go to Pinocchio to get out of the Wish Realm instead of going to her True Love? Doesn't she realize her boyfriend is pretty much a pro at realm hopping? Doesn't she realize Hook has realm-hopped to Neverland many times, traveled to Wonderland, traveled to many different worlds during his centuries as Captain of the Jolly Roger, outran a curse and found a magic bean to get to NYC, found her in NYC without any modern knowledge of our culture twice, told her where the portal to Arendelle was, created a portal to bring the Jolly Roger and Ariel to Storybrooke, was the one who motivated her to open the portal back to Storybrooke in the Season 3 finale, and also played a crucial role in returning her and Henry back to Storybrooke in the Season 4 finale? But no, let's go find the "best friend" who has been missing from every single major crisis in Emma's life for the past season and a half. It's not like Old Hook managed to find Princess Emma on his own and owns a ship made of magical wood that could have been used to make a wardrobe.

And if you read all of that...congratulations! You just read about Old Hook for longer than he was on screen. So screw you, A&E! 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Curio

[jhlipton]

16 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why would Emma not slice Gideon's throat because Rumple begged her not to?  Wouldn't it have been more poignant coming from Belle?

"If he's your son...[shwick.. gurgle]"  She didn't kill Gideon because of PLOT!!!!! Law 27.5 -- you can't kill a villain when he's down.

[Wayward Son]

It's weird but I think Regina and Fake!Robin had more chemistry than Regina and Real!Robin ever did haha

[daxx]

9 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Unless maybe he's pulling an Isaac and enjoying making the ridiculously handsome guy playing a heroic character look old, ugly, and unheroic so he feels better about himself in comparison.

Nail, meet head...

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

It's weird but I think Regina and Fake!Robin had more chemistry than Regina and Real!Robin ever did haha

Word.

[CCTC]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

It's weird but I think Regina and Fake!Robin had more chemistry than Regina and Real!Robin ever did haha

I think they gave FakeRobin more of a personality.  He is probably how Robin Hood should have been in the first place -- a bit of a rogue, a with a cynical sense of humor instead of the straight laced pure hero version that RealRobin was written as.  It would have worked better as a pairing with Regina, and we already had David for the Dudley Doright role (I like David, but we did not need another version of him esp. as a Regina love interest).  RealRobin was often just a cardboard cut-out to look handsome in romantic scenes with Regina.

Unpopular opinion, but I actually liked the episode.  I would not rate it as a top ten episode, but I was fine with it.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by CCTC

[Mitch]

2 hours ago, CCTC said:

I think they gave FakeRobin more of a personality.  He is probably how Robin Hood should have been in the first place -- a bit of a rogue, a with a cynical sense of humor instead of the straight laced pure hero version that RealRobin was written as.  It would have worked better as a pairing with Regina, and we already had David for the Dudley Doright role (I like David, but we did not need another version of him esp. as a Regina love interest).  RealRobin was often just a cardboard cut-out to look handsome in romantic scenes with Regina.

Unpopular opinion, but I actually liked the episode.  I would not rate it as a top ten episode, but I was fine with it.  

So true..a love interest of Regina's should always have a strong hand and give her shit right back to her. That would be fun to watch..( and I like Regina, but she works best when someone is giving her crap right back to her...)  And yea, we don't need another David...(SNORE) but I had to laugh at good old ineffectual Charming roaming the streets of SB without a plan as usual to confront a super powerful magical being and "throw him in jail." uh, if by any odds you actually find him, and beat him, how ya going to keep him in jail? Thank God your pretty David as your dumber then even your wife and good intentions do not a "hero" make.

I liked the episode, probably better then I have any since they started the convoluted "Dark One" mythology in Camelot which led to makes no sense Hades. It had a purpose, it was straight forward..(Emma and Regina need to get back home...Regina is torn as a look a like to the man she loves is there..) and Emma needs to confront her destiny and beat the bad guy (which reminds me, does the group all get texts or Twitter alerts when something goes down in the middle of main street, as they all appear there just in time.)  Done and done. They get in over their head when they get too convoluted and throw too many storylines and extra characters in. So I hold no hope they will ever explain the Wish World and FakeRobin.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

At any rate, you would think that portal-type travel, like a bean or the wardrobe, wouldn't work, that they'd have to find a way to get back to reality, not travel between worlds.

Thank you!  You said it so much better than I did.  The WishWorld having been created by a wish, it would seem to me the only way out would be to make another wish - or undo the wish that created it.  But then the writers would have had to think of that ahead of time, and I'm sure they didn't.  

15 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Unless maybe he's pulling an Isaac and enjoying making the ridiculously handsome guy playing a heroic character look old, ugly, and unheroic so he feels better about himself in comparison.

I think we have a winner!

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

 Like how you have a book on a bookshelf but none of the characters inside are real.

But I also don't get physically sucked into my books.  And if I did, I don't think a construct of that book world would be enough to get me back out.  I mean, in 4B, to get out of Isaac's alternate world, as stupid as the Henry-the-author is, at least he was from the Real World, as was the author's pen, which was used to 'undo' what Isaac had written.  

13 hours ago, Curio said:

So, I have quite a few questions...

And after reading all of that, my new head!cannon is that Old Hook was not really Old at all.  He was still young and handsome, but in disguise (and the drunk bit was just an act) to try and rescue the princess for the purpose of getting into the castle and having access to the dungeons to kill Rumple finally.  Thanks @Curio!  You just made it all better. :)

[Curio]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And after reading all of that, my new head!cannon is that Old Hook was not really Old at all.  He was still young and handsome, but in disguise (and the drunk bit was just an act) to try and rescue the princess for the purpose of getting into the castle and having access to the dungeons to kill Rumple finally.  Thanks @Curio!  You just made it all better. :)

Oh, I like it! I'm adopting it as my head canon too, because let's be real, it makes way more sense than the entire Wish Realm concept. Plus, those two episodes don't really matter anyway because they're real or fake or whatever, so all head canons are correct!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Oh, I like it! I'm adopting it as my head canon too, because let's be real, it makes way more sense than the entire Wish Realm concept. Plus, those two episodes don't really matter anyway because they're real or fake or whatever, so all head canons are correct!

It also makes more sense as to why Hook still thought he was All That.  Because, he really still was!  He might have been wearing a disguise (and let's face it, we all knew it was just a pillow under his shirt) but his ego knew that underneath it all he was still dashingly handsome.  And he probably couldn't figure out why the princess didn't see it also.  

17 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It wasn't a world that had been existing all along and would continue existing. It had only existed for a few minutes before Regina got there (even if Emma had a lifetime of memories -- not that this ever came up), and only existed for maybe a few hours. It probably ceased to exist when Emma was gone.

Taken to spoilers thread...

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It also makes more sense as to why Hook still thought he was All That.  Because, he really still was!  He might have been wearing a disguise (and let's face it, we all knew it was just a pillow under his shirt) but his ego knew that underneath it all he was still dashingly handsome.

Yes, yes. The fake belly looked so fake because it was fake. And the hair and makeup looked cheap because Hook did it himself quickly earlier that day when he first heard about the missing princess reward.

[tri4335]

11 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It also makes more sense as to why Hook still thought he was All That.  Because, he really still was!  He might have been wearing a disguise (and let's face it, we all knew it was just a pillow under his shirt) but his ego knew that underneath it all he was still dashingly handsome.  And he probably couldn't figure out why the princess didn't see it also.  

 

4 minutes ago, Curio said:

Yes, yes. The fake belly looked so fake because it was fake. And the hair and makeup looked cheap because Hook did it himself quickly earlier that day when he first heard about the missing princess reward.

I'm all in on this theory too - well done @Curio well done!

[Chaos Theory]

Despite this shows many many many flaws I do enjoy it.

I found old drunk Hook hilarious.  

I do enjoy the friendship between Emma and Regina.

i thought Rumple and Belle were even bareable  .  So improvement. 

I still really like the whole big universe story world thing even if it doesn't always make sense.  I don't need it to.  I like the concept of Emma changing her fate just because she believes she can.  That works for me.  

[Virtual]

What I was interested to see was if the Alternate Universe version of Robin would be able to transport to Storybrooke. So far, it looks like that's gone well. Regina bringing back "another Robin" has pretty much been the way she has always dealt with loss (IIRC,  she tried to bring back Daniel), so that's not surprising. I WAS surprised to see Emma encourage her to do it, but that can be attributed to Emma and Regina becoming fairly close over the 6 seasons this show has aired, and it's great that Emma cares that much about Regina's happiness.

I laughed considerably at the AU version of Hook, and Emma's comments to the Storybrooke version of Hook about switching from rum to water.

Hopefully Gideon doesn't have anything within his personality to allow him to be redeemed easily. He has the potential to be a very threatening villain, and I think it'd be interesting to see.

[Camera One]

So who's "tougher than the rest"?  Emma?  What's the point of titling episodes after the writers' favorite songs again?  

A more appropriate title would be "More Negligent Than The Rest", for August.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Virtual Side said:

and it's great that Emma cares that much about Regina's happiness.

 

It's too bad Regina doesn't put in nearly the same amount of effort in caring about Emma's happiness, though. It really is one of the most lopsided relationships on the show.

Regina may have taken a trip to the Wish Realm to find Emma, but the second she did find her, she killed her parents and ditched Emma, forcing Emma to solve Regina's problem by herself. (The Evil Queen and Regina are the same person. I'm placing this entire Wish Realm fiasco squarely on Regina's shoulders since she technically made the wish.) "Hey Emma, I came to rescue you! Oh wait, nevermind, I need you to rescue both of us now and figure out how to get back to Storybrooke. Good luck with that. I'm going to ditch you for the rest of the episode to hang out with my fake boyfriend. I don't really care if you get back to your real boyfriend and alive parents. And if this fake Robin stuff doesn't work out, I'd love to reach through Hook's throat, rip out his organs, and kill him. And I'll tell you that point blank. But oh, right, I guess I care about your happiness too?"

[Camera One]

It doesn't even make sense from Regina's perspective.  As far as they know, The Evil Queen is now alone in Storybrooke with their precious Henry, who could be in danger yet again.  Shouldn't Regina be worried about Real Henry and wanting to get back as soon as possible?  

I wonder if it would have worked to take the hearts from Fake Snow and Charming, and used them to replace Real Snowing's half-hearts?  If it didn't work, they could use the half-hearts again.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Camera One

[Jul 68]

I finally watched the episode today and have now waded through all of your posts. I liked the episode overall, even after knowing who wrote it.

Yes, there was typical schlock, but it's our schlock and we, as group, should look deep in our hearts and quietly admit to ourselves that we love it no matter how much we protest. Seriously. How many times have we all said that we've given up, won't watch anymore, etc. But yet, here we are; hate loving our show. Flipping tables as we go.

Don't get me wrong, we will never love the sloppy writing and lack of any form of continuity. Never.

Quote

@King of Hearts

* If Regina was on the run, why didn't she just use a glamour spell? Why didn't she just poof away when Henry was after her?

 

So much this ^

I get Emma may have been leery of using magic as hers has been on the fritz, but Regina shouldn't have any qualms. They are both far too smart for this laziness.

Quote

@Curio

Also, I’m side-eyeing Emma for magically throwing Old Hook around when she could have easily just poofed him away without physically injuring him. (But wait! It doesn't matter because the Wish Realm is fake...except when it's not.) She poofed him a few seconds later anyways, so why not poof him before knocking him out cold?

 

She couldn't poof Killian yet, because he still had the 'magic' chisel.   I'm more curious as to why he didn't question how she knew his name. Also, your alternative script for this scene is all things good.

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@Sharky

Loved the little bit of Wish!Hook, but it would've been fun to have him on screen a little more. I did love his reaction to seeing Robin again as well. I keep thinking that if this show does get cancelled, Colin would do an awesome job as the new Doctor Who -- some serious heavy stuff with the funny stuff mixed in.

Same goes for Eduardo. I know he's a great costume designer and comes up with some awesome pieces, but Ginny has been dressed like a frumpy old mom since season 3 when she was pregnant. I know she's gained a little weight since her two kids and she's not a size 2 anymore, but you don't have to dress her in dumpy trash bags with no shaping.

 

I would agree with you, but the current problem with Dr. Who is not Peter Capaldi, he's a terrific actor. The current problem is with Steven Moffat. Until he is replaced or gets his mojo back (yeah baby!), I don't want to see another good actor taken down by this role.

Maybe now that Eduardo has seen Ginny in her Oscar gown (which I hated, btw), he'll realize that she's not fat or dowdy by any stretch.

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@Rumsy4

How convenient that Regina failed to mention his kids.

 

She did, however, mention his family. Why didn't he ask about that? Let me guess, it happened in offscreenville.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Jul 68
Accidentally deleted when I tried to bold.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Jul 68 said:

I would agree with you, but the current problem with Dr. Who is not Peter Capaldi, he's a terrific actor. The current problem is with Steven Moffat. Until he is replaced or gets his mojo back (yeah baby!), I don't want to see another good actor taken down by this role.

You're in luck. Capaldi and Moffat are leaving. They're on their last season. We'll be getting a new showrunner (it's Chibnall, isn't it?) and a new Doctor. I'm not sure I'd hold my breath waiting for them to cast Colin, though. There's pretty strong sentiment that it be a British person, and Ireland is a separate country.

2 hours ago, Jul 68 said:

I get Emma may have been leery of using magic as hers has been on the fritz, but Regina shouldn't have any qualms. They are both far too smart for this laziness.

They're really inconsistent about when they remember that these characters can sometimes do anything they want with the wave of a hand. They're capable of poofing all over the place, but then they inexplicably run when being chased. They can heal any wound with the wave of a hand, but they still rush some people to the emergency room and worry whether they'll make it through surgery.

[Camera One]

It felt really deliberate that Regina didn't mention Robin's children.  Would it have made him nostalgic about Marian?  Did she not want to explain the crazy Zelena baby?  Did they want to keep the juicy reaction for when Robin came to Storybrooke?  I guess we'll see if it's the latter soon enough.

I don't buy that Wish Rumple wouldn't have immediately found Regina and tried to stop them from leaving via wardrobe.  Or use it to get to Storybrooke at the end of the season.

[KingOfHearts]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

It felt really deliberate that Regina didn't mention Robin's children.  Would it have made him nostalgic about Marian?  Did she not want to explain the crazy Zelena baby?  Did they want to keep the juicy reaction for when Robin came to Storybrooke?  I guess we'll see if it's the latter soon enough.

I don't buy that Wish Rumple wouldn't have immediately found Regina and tried to stop them from leaving via wardrobe.  Or use it to get to Storybrooke at the end of the season.

I don't buy that Wish!Robin and Regina could escape the Dark Castle unscathed. 

Regina probably didn't mention the kids because she wasn't to deal with custody issues. She wants to forget they exist, so she doesn't have to take care of them.

[Shanna Marie]

Some notes upon rewatching ...

21 hours ago, Jul 68 said:

She couldn't poof Killian yet, because he still had the 'magic' chisel. 

She had a long time when he was holding Pinocchio at sword point before he got the magic chisel during which she could have poofed him. And then he wouldn't have had the magic chisel and it wouldn't have been broken.

Their weird twist of the Ugly Duckling story to fit their plot (Emma deciding maybe she can change her fate and not die -- mind you, she heard this version of the story when she was a child, so she's known it all along -- and her pep talk to Pinocchio) doesn't actually fit Emma's situation, since she was a beloved princess all along, even when she was a homeless child. She didn't become a swan. She always was one.

Moment of weird irony: "The Black Fairy failed to turn me evil, and now I must murder someone so I can take her power." Gideon may need to rethink that "failed to turn me evil" thing. And I still can't believe neither of his parents told him that's not how the Savior thing works. You'd think that would have been step one in their campaign to keep him from being evil and stop everyone else from wanting to kill him.

I'm still boggling about Regina seeing that people were better off when she didn't cast the curse, being surprised by this realization, and feeling sorry for herself because people are happier when she didn't get to magically torment them.

[Camera One]

You get a gold star for actually rewatching this episode, LOL.

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

You get a gold star for actually rewatching this episode, LOL.

I had to fast forward through all the Robin and Regina stuff. Mostly, I needed something on while I ate dinner and skimmed Facebook, and I can't really deal with the funniest videos show because I don't think that people falling down or being hit in the crotch is very funny. Some of the pet videos are cute, but mostly that show just makes me cringe, so watching the highlights of the previous week's Once is preferable.

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

You get a gold star for actually rewatching this episode, LOL.

Do I get a medal for rewatching Selfless, Brave, and True?

[InsertWordHere]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

Do I get a medal for rewatching Selfless, Brave, and True?

From me you do, because I can't do it. Ever. 

[Daisy]

I am slowly getting caught up. (why), but my thoughts:

Of course this Robin and Marian didn't get together. because now you don't even have to think/worry about Marian at all do you Regina? Why even kill him if you're bringing him back 1/2 a season later. You obliterated his soul, show. at least let that stick.

 

I'm tired of Baby Conner-Gideon already. He needs to kill Emma to be the Saviour? the hell he does. I wish people would remember that the reason why Emma is the saviour because she's the product of true love. That's where her magic comes from. also she was only the "saviour" in the sense that she was capable of coming back, and moving time. like making this entire Saviour-ology - is stupid. 

And then why:
Why did Black Fairy kidnap Gideon. 
Why did she torture him. 
Why does Gideon think he needs to kill Emma?
Why doesn't Gideon simply ask for Saviour help? 
Why am I watching this show?

I thought nothing would trump JMo's "you effing gotta be kidding me." look with Henry's whole "just believe, New Yorkers," speech. Robert's Whu look might overtake that though. 

[kingshearte]

On 3/5/2017 at 9:16 PM, KingOfHearts said:

* Young August casting... meh. It was okay against adult August, but I will never believe Pinocchio would have turned into that as a teenager. He was a little freckled ginger.

It could happen. My husband was a little freckled ginger way back when, and now he looks like Daniel Day Lewis. But I'll grant you that it's an odd choice.

On 3/5/2017 at 9:44 PM, sharky said:

Loved the little bit of Wish!Hook, but it would've been fun to have him on screen a little more. I did love his reaction to seeing Robin again as well. I keep thinking that if this show does get cancelled, Colin would do an awesome job as the new Doctor Who -- some serious heavy stuff with the funny stuff mixed in.

Oh, yes please.

[AudienceofOne]

On 05/03/2017 at 8:33 PM, Curio said:

The Jolly Roger is made of magical wood! Emma and Pinocchio needed magical wood! That’s where Emma poofed Hook! It literally writes itself

When Emma looked at the wood and got her "oh!" face, that's where I thought the show was going. And then... August. The Neal of friends. Why am I still watching this show?

Seriously, it's so forgettable that I had to google Black Fairy because I had no memory of her.

[Corvino]

I hope everybody is right that the wish realm is not true and faded out when Emma and Regina got out of there, because if it still existed and they left behind them A DEAD BELOVED ROYAL COUPLE, that is disproportionately upsetting. Regina managed just casually, in aid of a completely other agenda, to do in one of the realms what she spent a universe of trouble and pains trying to do and FAILED to do in the real realms???? It better not last to make the people in it sad.

But as to why Robin was able to come back with them, nobody has mentioned THE FEATHER yet. The situation appears to be this:

• Hades alleged that being killed the way real-world Robin died annihilated the soul,
• but Henry or somebody-- I don't have the energy to go back and see who, but I focused in on this because souls being able to be destroyed is so contrary to my beliefs (you too, Fred's-soul-annihilated-by-Illyria! Nonsense!)-- Henry, let us say, had a speech early in the fall about maybe that wasn't so, Hades or someone was lying or mistaken about that.
• Then there was this half a feather. I forget when it came up in the fall, but there was some idea that Essence of Robin was hidden and survived in IT?
• So Regina re-finds this feather in this episode right when she wants to take fictional wish Robin back to real Storybrooke.

Surely, then, what's going on is that wish-realm Robin has been, or now will be, imbued with the essence of real Robin from the feather (that's why he didn't age appropriately), so that he'll be the real one, though maybe with the wish-realm one's memories. Like the way when a clone of Spock grew from his entombed body in Star Trek III:The Search for Spock, it ended up being not just a duplicate but the original Spock really resurrected, because his katra was put back into the new body from Dr. McCoy. If this is it, I'll be interested to see whose memories the new Robin does end up with; yes, what about his two kids? It's true that the new Robin is more interesting for now, but if it's the original without his old memories, it's essentially a different person. Like how it was unsatisfactory in Star Trek (Deep Space Nine, I think) when Worf's brother got to live by having his body purged of all previous memories and given a fake identity. To me, Worf's brother was dead after that unless he was ever going to get his old memories back.

But anyway: the feather!! Authorial intention? Will we ever hear any more about it?

[Shanna Marie]

It's interesting revisiting this one after season seven, especially given how many times they mentioned that the Wishverse was fake, was created by a wish just a few hours ago, and did we mention it's fake and these aren't real people? Regina didn't actually murder the Charmings because they weren't real. Wish Robin is special because he's different, was the wrong age, and was real enough to come to the real world, unlike everyone else.

Spoiler

But then later, it seems that this world has always existed, and Wish Hook fathered a child in another realm decades before the wish even happened.

The idea of what Wish Hook might have become kind of works in this context, since if he'd totally failed in getting his revenge because Rumple was locked up in a dungeon, and if he'd never met Emma to inspire him to want to do and be better, I could see him crawling into a barrel of rum and becoming utterly dissipated.

Spoiler

But what we see here doesn't work at all in context of the backstory they later gave him. No version of Hook is going to become a dissipated drunk in just a few years when he has a daughter out there he needs to find. This is the guy who devoted a century to avenging Milah without letting himself go downhill physically. He's not going to crawl into a rum barrel and give up a few years after being separated from his daughter.

Emma's childhood timeline of events doesn't make a lot of sense. She was found as an infant in Maine and went into foster care. Then the next time (chronologically) we see her would probably be here, where she's a runaway in Minneapolis. Then we see her in a group home in Boston. Then she's a runaway in Minneapolis again. How/why would little Emma have ended up in Minneapolis from New England, and then back again?

If they wanted us to see the relationship between Robin and Regina as an epic love that would make this not-quite reunion touching and tragic, maybe they should have written scenes between the two characters. You can't just sprinkle pixie dust on them, then barely have them interact other than to talk about being soulmates, and make us care, no matter how many times they're tragically separated.

[legaleagle53]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's interesting revisiting this one after season seven, especially given how many times they mentioned that the Wishverse was fake, was created by a wish just a few hours ago, and did we mention it's fake and these aren't real people? Regina didn't actually murder the Charmings because they weren't real. Wish Robin is special because he's different, was the wrong age, and was real enough to come to the real world, unlike everyone else.

  Hide contents

But then later, it seems that this world has always existed, and Wish Hook fathered a child in another realm decades before the wish even happened.

The idea of what Wish Hook might have become kind of works in this context, since if he'd totally failed in getting his revenge because Rumple was locked up in a dungeon, and if he'd never met Emma to inspire him to want to do and be better, I could see him crawling into a barrel of rum and becoming utterly dissipated.

  Hide contents

But what we see here doesn't work at all in context of the backstory they later gave him. No version of Hook is going to become a dissipated drunk in just a few years when he has a daughter out there he needs to find. This is the guy who devoted a century to avenging Milah without letting himself go downhill physically. He's not going to crawl into a rum barrel and give up a few years after being separated from his daughter.

There's also the fact that 

Spoiler

Wish Hook says in Season 7 that his "drunken old fool" persona is just an act and that he hasn't actually touched alcohol in years.

[Camera One]

How old was Young August supposed to be in this episode anyway?  Is he wise beyond his years or what?  So he became a selfish mess-up but had a flicker of conscious and all sage-like in this episode?

[Shanna Marie]

Spoiler

10 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Wish Hook says in Season 7 that his "drunken old fool" persona is just an act and that he hasn't actually touched alcohol in years.

He said he gave up alcohol after meeting Emma in this episode, so only the season 7 appearance of drunk old Hook was an act. He was really a drunk fool here, but then when he learned that there was a version of himself that someone like Emma could love, he cleaned up his act and went back to searching for his daughter. It was at least ten years between this episode and that one (well, depending on the timeline).

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

How old was Young August supposed to be in this episode anyway?  Is he wise beyond his years or what?  So he became a selfish mess-up but had a flicker of conscious and all sage-like in this episode?

And is he stalking Emma across the country to pop in and give her "wise" advice without actually really living up to the responsibility he promised and looking after her? He ran off as a kid while they were still in Maine, but he somehow tracked her down years later in Minneapolis when she was homeless. How did he know she would be there? I'm pretty sure she's not using credit cards to travel, so he can't have been hacking into her credit card account to see where she's buying bus tickets to go to.

I noticed in the thread from when this first aired that we were worried they were setting August up as a love interest and planning to break up Hook and Emma (especially given the plot of the next episode). I wonder if that's something they would have done if they hadn't had to do a reboot to get renewed or if JMo hadn't left.

[Writing Wrongs]

Did JMo have a no make-up clause for Season 6? She's come a long way from the hideous black fake eyelashes of Season 1.

[Camera One]

The whole August-is-Emma's-closest-friend thing just doesn't work and is totally unearned.  I suppose it's no worse than the Emma/Regina or the Snow/Regina friendships which totally don't work either.