S07.E09: Rock in the Road

[ganesh]

Morgan did suggest in this episode that they consider trying to take out Negan alone first, instead of planning an all out assault, which we've been throwing around here for a while. It's just that none of the characters really have much in the way of strategic thinking. All of the big boss battles have been basically the same thing. 

[Boofish]

2 hours ago, mandolin said:

I don't have a ton of comments to make, but I do feel strongly enough in my Tara hate to chime in. I don't understand how she is out there with the main characters on "missions." When Glenn found her, she was worthless (that wasn't that long ago!). And now, she's some badass? I can't stand her, and her stupid fist-bumps, even when she isn't doing them. GAH. Her expressions even make me angry.

Good to see some of the gang together and some hijinks. I didn't quite understand Rosita's disgust towards Sasha, because I thought they'd bonded with a head nod last half season or something.

Tara's "the new Meg" [TM Family Guy]

[mightysparrow]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Morgan did suggest in this episode that they consider trying to take out Negan alone first, instead of planning an all out assault, which we've been throwing around here for a while. It's just that none of the characters really have much in the way of strategic thinking. All of the big boss battles have been basically the same thing. 

Morgan thinks that human life is precious and HE'S THE BAD GUY?!?!?  Rick is going around to communities asking them to donate people to die in HIS fight and he's the fucking hero?  Right now, the other communities have some sort of detente with the Saviours.  It's only ASZ that has the major beef with Negan.  And why's that?  Maybe it has something to do with CDB sneaking in and murdering his people in their sleep. 

CDB is a raggedy, bloodstained group that has had it's ass kicked by Negan.  They're going around to these communities that are clean, fed and living in relative peace and asking these communities to join CDB in an all-out war.  Why would these communities give CDB the time of day?  Why would they call down the wrath of the Saviours, make their women widows and their children orphans?  FOR RICK GRIMES? 

We've seen how loyal Rick Grimes is.  He couldn't wait to fuck Jessie but the second Jessie got munched, it was 'Jessie who?'.  Suddenly Michonne is the love of his life.

Ezekiel's shtick might be a bit much but his followers sleep well at night.  ON MATTRESSES.  He doesn't know Rick.  Jesus vouches for Rick but I have yet to see anything that shows that Jesus is any fucking use at all.  He can kickbox, but what bloody good is he?  

Tara is a leader now.  Isn't that proof enough that CDB doesn't have a fucking clue?  Eric was right.  He's seen the destruction Rick and his crew has caused ever since they showed up in Alexandria.  He wants his man alive and with him, not going off on some kamikaze mission.

The smile on Rick's face at the end of Sunday's episode was because he's found a group that looks desperate enough to buy his bullshit.

Edited to add:  As for Rosita...I thought she had come to terms with Sasha but if she has an attitude, so what.  I can understand she might feel some kind of way about Abe leaving her for Sasha, even though she should take that up with Abe.  Oh wait. 

Being Rosita's friend hasn't proven to be an advantage to anyone, so Sasha isn't losing anything if Rosita's pissed at her.  Sasha has her own healing to do.  She and Maggie have a bond.  Maggie is friend that Sasha can count on.

Edited February 15, 2017 by mightysparrow
And another thing!

[ganesh]

But you know CDB will be proven right and everyone else wrong. The arguments against Rick basically amount to appeasement of Negan which isn't really an argument imo. 

I don't disagree with Rick per se, even. We've all said: there's a lot of people in a relatively small area. Resources are finite, and none of the communities are going to be able to hold up their end of the bargain. Negan is eventually going to get bored, and his 'word' to stay out of the kingdom isn't going to last long. It's not like there's any rule of law. How long is it going to take for them to figure out Daryl *might* be hiding in the kingdom. "Oh well, I guess we can't get him because we promised to stay away." Frankly, I'm surprised there is still stuff to scrounge out there too. 

That's really the argument Rick should be making. *Then* when everyone agrees to that, you bring up what can be done. 

Again, there's no nuance. It's just, let's band together and kill them all! 

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Is Morgan required to be all-seeing and all-knowing?  Morgan said it was a mistake because it was a bad thing to do and IT WAS.  Attacking people while they slept was one of the lowest things that CDB has done.  But Morgan wasn't the only one with misgivings.  Michonne didn't think it was a good idea.  Glenn hated what he had to do.  Perhaps if Michonne or Glenn or any of the others had had the guts to stand up to King Rick, Negan wouldn't have been sitting in Rick's kitchen, holding Judith and drinking lemonade.  If Rick wants to be the all-powerful leader, he should be man enough to take responsibility for his MANY fuck-ups.

I think he has. I've seen Rick admit he was wrong. And when it's not in words, you can see it in his actions. He steps down. He's apprehensive. All the losses they've had WEIGH on him. That's why he was ready to just play Negan's little game and be a good boy. He didn't want any more losses. He truly cares about these people, even if he fucks up from time to time. I don't see Michonne being his cheerleader. She dissented. She didn't like just laying down and taking it. She left the community and was doing her own thing. And she finally got Rick to come around and see it HER way. 

[ghoulina]

46 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Morgan thinks that human life is precious and HE'S THE BAD GUY?!?!?  Rick is going around to communities asking them to donate people to die in HIS fight and he's the fucking hero?  Right now, the other communities have some sort of detente with the Saviours.  It's only ASZ that has the major beef with Negan.  And why's that?  Maybe it has something to do with CDB sneaking in and murdering his people in their sleep. 

Morgan suggesting that ALL human life is precious is an ignorant and dangerous notion. It got people killed. He came upon the Wolves once and let them go. Those Wolves attacked ASZ and killed innocent ASZhats who didn't know their head from a hole in the ground. He then SAW with his own eyes what they were truly up to, and STILL let a group of about 4 of them go. That group almost killed Rick in the RV. If he wants to adhere to this philosophy, he needs to remove himself far from other people, because he's putting their lives at risk. Sometimes you have to kill. It's just the way of the world. 

And I don't see this stand against Negan as JUST Rick's fight, or ASZ's fight. Minus Gregory, the inhabitants of the Hilltop seem very eager to join up. Don't forget, a member of their group was killed and that's what precipitated the attack on the satellite location. THEY were fed up first and looking for help to get rid of this group. And that other group of women has been SORELY hurt by The Saviors, and I'm guessing they're not going to be hard to convince to get revenge for their murdered men. 

The Kingdom is really the only group that is still in relatively good standing with The Saviors, but that won't last for long. Personally, I think it's better to be pro-active than wait for the inevitable beating/killing. I won't go so far as to say Ezekial made the wrong choice, because he's leading an entire group too and that shit ain't easy. But I wish he didn't value the counsel of someone who has a really naive perspective on what life in the ZA is like. 

[Boofish]

54 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Morgan thinks that human life is precious and HE'S THE BAD GUY?!?!?  Rick is going around to communities asking them to donate people to die in HIS fight and he's the fucking hero?  Right now, the other communities have some sort of detente with the Saviours.  It's only ASZ that has the major beef with Negan.  And why's that?  Maybe it has something to do with CDB sneaking in and murdering his people in their sleep. 

CDB is a raggedy, bloodstained group that has had it's ass kicked by Negan.  They're going around to these communities that are clean, fed and living in relative peace and asking these communities to join CDB in an all-out war.  Why would these communities give CDB the time of day?  Why would they call down the wrath of the Saviours, make their women widows and their children orphans?  FOR RICK GRIMES? 

We've seen how loyal Rick Grimes is.  He couldn't wait to fuck Jessie but the second Jessie got munched, it was 'Jessie who?'.  Suddenly Michonne is the love of his life.

Ezekiel's shtick might be a bit much but his followers sleep well at night.  ON MATTRESSES.  He doesn't know Rick.  Jesus vouches for Rick but I have yet to see anything that shows that Jesus is any fucking use at all.  He can kickbox, but what bloody good is he?  

Tara is a leader now.  Isn't that proof enough that CDB doesn't have a fucking clue?  Eric was right.  He's seen the destruction Rick and his crew has caused ever since they showed up in Alexandria.  He wants his man alive and with him, not going off on some kamikaze mission.

The smile on Rick's face at the end of Sunday's episode was because he's found a group that looks desperate enough to buy his bullshit.

Edited to add:  As for Rosita...I thought she had come to terms with Sasha but if she has an attitude, so what.  I can understand she might feel some kind of way about Abe leaving her for Sasha, even though she should take that up with Abe.  Oh wait. 

Being Rosita's friend hasn't proven to be an advantage to anyone, so Sasha isn't losing anything if Rosita's pissed at her.  Sasha has her own healing to do.  She and Maggie have a bond.  Maggie is friend that Sasha can count on.

This could be a stand up routine ... it's all sooo spot on even though I don't really agree. 

The Hilltop as well as Alexandria have every reason to fight the Saviors. The Kingdom said no so they left. But The Kingdom needs to be prepared to stand alone and or take advice from Morgan when their time comes (and it will).  

[maystone]

I just want to say that I second everything ghoulina has posted above rather than rewriting it in my own words. But I'm also here to stick up for my girl Tara. I love her, and I look forward to her screen time. Yeah, she's not intense; she's not a natural leader; she's not drop-dead gorgeous, but she steps up, always. I love how goofy she is with the fist bumps and the jokes. She may be unassuming, but she's loyal and brave and loving and still works to hold on to her moral center. She's my "everywoman" of the ZA. And I think Alanna Masterson has a great handle on her character, too.

[queenanne]

I agree with those who think that FPP was somewhere out there with the band of women (we did see the BOAT in the distance, after all); plus, wasn't there a time a few episodic weeks back, when FPP was mysteriously ambling around the compound in the dusk just as he did tonight, only with no apparent payoff at the time, leaving viewers scratching their heads?  I would surmise he'd been approached during this time by one of the friendlier women and struck up a through-the-fence conversation with her.  Maybe I am way off base though, or remembering things wrong.

Edited February 16, 2017 by queenanne

[Dodginblue]

2 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Morgan thinks that human life is precious and HE'S THE BAD GUY?!?!?  Rick is going around to communities asking them to donate people to die in HIS fight and he's the fucking hero?  Right now, the other communities have some sort of detente with the Saviours.  It's only ASZ that has the major beef with Negan.  And why's that?  Maybe it has something to do with CDB sneaking in and murdering his people in their sleep. 

CDB is a raggedy, bloodstained group that has had it's ass kicked by Negan.  They're going around to these communities that are clean, fed and living in relative peace and asking these communities to join CDB in an all-out war.  Why would these communities give CDB the time of day?  Why would they call down the wrath of the Saviours, make their women widows and their children orphans?  FOR RICK GRIMES? 

We've seen how loyal Rick Grimes is.  He couldn't wait to fuck Jessie but the second Jessie got munched, it was 'Jessie who?'.  Suddenly Michonne is the love of his life.

Ezekiel's shtick might be a bit much but his followers sleep well at night.  ON MATTRESSES.  He doesn't know Rick.  Jesus vouches for Rick but I have yet to see anything that shows that Jesus is any fucking use at all.  He can kickbox, but what bloody good is he?  

Tara is a leader now.  Isn't that proof enough that CDB doesn't have a fucking clue?  Eric was right.  He's seen the destruction Rick and his crew has caused ever since they showed up in Alexandria.  He wants his man alive and with him, not going off on some kamikaze mission.

The smile on Rick's face at the end of Sunday's episode was because he's found a group that looks desperate enough to buy his bullshit.

Edited to add:  As for Rosita...I thought she had come to terms with Sasha but if she has an attitude, so what.  I can understand she might feel some kind of way about Abe leaving her for Sasha, even though she should take that up with Abe.  Oh wait. 

Being Rosita's friend hasn't proven to be an advantage to anyone, so Sasha isn't losing anything if Rosita's pissed at her.  Sasha has her own healing to do.  She and Maggie have a bond.  Maggie is friend that Sasha can count on.

This is kind of harsh but mostly true.  Except I wouldn't accuse Rick of not being loyal.  His relationship with Jessie was really brief and she's dead and gone now so him being with Michonne isn't really a betrayal.  He and Michonne have a much deeper connection and for a lot longer.  

The problem with Rick's pitch to these other communities is that he doesn't offer any plans, any idea of how it could be done.  He just says join us, we have to fight.  And the only form of war he offers is a war of attrition.  A high body count and no way to be sure there's enough bodies to make it worthwhile.  That's what I think Morgan is trying to offer, the thought that maybe there's another way, let's think this through.  I get that the good guys don't have technology, there are no predator drones, no smart bombs, no Seal Team Six.   But all Rick can come up with instead is trying to get a bunch of bodies to throw at the fight.  Most of whom have no training.

[millennium]

An average, mostly forgettable episode, but I guess if viewed in the context of this awful season it was a "GREAT EPISODE!" because everybody was together, blah blah blah.

If the writers stay true to Season Seven form, then the next episode should be a long, ponderous, boring character piece on Father Gabriel.

Can hardly wait.

[ChipBach]

4 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Morgan suggesting that ALL human life is precious is an ignorant and dangerous notion. It got people killed. He came upon the Wolves once and let them go. Those Wolves attacked ASZ and killed innocent ASZhats who didn't know their head from a hole in the ground. He then SAW with his own eyes what they were truly up to, and STILL let a group of about 4 of them go. That group almost killed Rick in the RV. If he wants to adhere to this philosophy, he needs to remove himself far from other people, because he's putting their lives at risk. Sometimes you have to kill. It's just the way of the world. 

And I don't see this stand against Negan as JUST Rick's fight, or ASZ's fight. Minus Gregory, the inhabitants of the Hilltop seem very eager to join up. Don't forget, a member of their group was killed and that's what precipitated the attack on the satellite location. THEY were fed up first and looking for help to get rid of this group. And that other group of women has been SORELY hurt by The Saviors, and I'm guessing they're not going to be hard to convince to get revenge for their murdered men. 

The Kingdom is really the only group that is still in relatively good standing with The Saviors, but that won't last for long. Personally, I think it's better to be pro-active than wait for the inevitable beating/killing. I won't go so far as to say Ezekial made the wrong choice, because he's leading an entire group too and that shit ain't easy. But I wish he didn't value the counsel of someone who has a really naive perspective on what life in the ZA is like. 

Yep - regardless of their current relationship with the Saviors sooner or later things will sour (lack of goods, food, whatever) and the saviors will use their superiority to crush you.  Being a slave ain't good, even if it's a slave on a nice mattress.  I would follow GHOULINA'S leadership... 

[mightysparrow]

5 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Morgan suggesting that ALL human life is precious is an ignorant and dangerous notion. It got people killed. He came upon the Wolves once and let them go. Those Wolves attacked ASZ and killed innocent ASZhats who didn't know their head from a hole in the ground. He then SAW with his own eyes what they were truly up to, and STILL let a group of about 4 of them go. That group almost killed Rick in the RV. If he wants to adhere to this philosophy, he needs to remove himself far from other people, because he's putting their lives at risk. Sometimes you have to kill. It's just the way of the world. 

And I don't see this stand against Negan as JUST Rick's fight, or ASZ's fight. Minus Gregory, the inhabitants of the Hilltop seem very eager to join up. Don't forget, a member of their group was killed and that's what precipitated the attack on the satellite location. THEY were fed up first and looking for help to get rid of this group. And that other group of women has been SORELY hurt by The Saviors, and I'm guessing they're not going to be hard to convince to get revenge for their murdered men. 

The Kingdom is really the only group that is still in relatively good standing with The Saviors, but that won't last for long. Personally, I think it's better to be pro-active than wait for the inevitable beating/killing. I won't go so far as to say Ezekial made the wrong choice, because he's leading an entire group too and that shit ain't easy. But I wish he didn't value the counsel of someone who has a really naive perspective on what life in the ZA is like. 

Morgan let the Wolves go AFTER he saved Daryl's life.  And the Wolves had been sniffing around the area for a while, even before CDB arrived so the attack on ASZ isn't only down to Morgan letting a couple go.  When the Wolves finally did attack, Morgan was there in the thick of the fight; he wasn't sitting around singing 'Kumbya' (sp?).  And the Wolf that he kept prisoner, saved Denise's life, so there's that.

Violence is essential in the ZA; there doesn't seem to be anyway around that.  And Morgan has no problem being violent.  His 'all life is precious' philosophy is both a result of the trauma he's endured and in honour of the man he believes saved him.  But when it came right down to it, Morgan WAS willing to kill for someone he cared about, even though I don't think Carol was worth the effort.  When he told Rick he had killed someone, he wasn't looking for a cookie or a hug.  He was letting Rick know that he had taken a major step and that his thinking has evolved.  Or are Rick and Carol the only people allowed to go through stuff?

I think Rick Grimes needs to remember that he wouldn't be around to swing his dick all over the Virginia country-side if it wasn't for Morgan.  He doesn't have to kiss Morgan's ass but he could give him a little fucking respect. 

Glenn and Abe died in agony in front of the people they loved and who loved them because they did things Rick's way.  Rick should be willing to listen to other opinions.  And the members of CDB should stand up on their hind legs and tell Rick that he's not the tactical genius he thinks he is.  Rick flat out lied to Ezekiel about 'beating' the Saviours and NOBODY called him on it.  That's just straight up bullshit.

I wish I liked Tara more because she seems like a relatively good-hearted person.  But in my opinion Tara should always be second tier because the character isn't that interesting and the actor just isn't up to snuff.  TWD isn't Masterpiece Theatre, but in a group of so-so to okay actors (Danai and Lennie being the exceptions in my opinion) she's just bloody awful.

Edited February 16, 2017 by mightysparrow

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Morgan suggesting that ALL human life is precious is an ignorant and dangerous notion. It got people killed. He came upon the Wolves once and let them go. Those Wolves attacked ASZ and killed innocent ASZhats who didn't know their head from a hole in the ground. He then SAW with his own eyes what they were truly up to, and STILL let a group of about 4 of them go. That group almost killed Rick in the RV. If he wants to adhere to this philosophy, he needs to remove himself far from other people, because he's putting their lives at risk. Sometimes you have to kill. It's just the way of the world.

Morgan actually has a super philosophy; unfortunately, it has a fatal flaw.  It has zero chance of success unless EVERYBODY - and I do mean 100%, no exceptions - buys in to the same philosophy. 

Let one relatively well-armed group reject it, and you get a living demonstration of how in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

[ghoulina]

16 hours ago, maystone said:

 

I just want to say that I second everything ghoulina has posted above rather than rewriting it in my own words. But I'm also here to stick up for my girl Tara. I love her, and I look forward to her screen time. Yeah, she's not intense; she's not a natural leader; she's not drop-dead gorgeous, but she steps up, always. I love how goofy she is with the fist bumps and the jokes. She may be unassuming, but she's loyal and brave and loving and still works to hold on to her moral center. She's my "everywoman" of the ZA. And I think Alanna Masterson has a great handle on her character, too.

 

I actually like Tara too. She's not my favorite character, but I find her to be realistic and she rounds out the group. Not everyone is an instant badass. I LIKE that she's awkward and doofy and falls a lot, but she always keeps trying. She's very supportive of her friends, but she'll call you out if you're being an ass. I will admit that Alana doesn't always hit it out of the park, she's not the best actress on the show, but I do think she's improved. And I also think the writers sometimes have a hard time writing for ANYONE that's not a man or a badass woman. Children, young women, etc. - they seem out of their depth a lot. But I'm glad to see curvier Taras and older Carols in the group. 

 

12 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Morgan let the Wolves go AFTER he saved Daryl's life.  And the Wolves had been sniffing around the area for a while, even before CDB arrived so the attack on ASZ isn't only down to Morgan letting a couple go.  When the Wolves finally did attack, Morgan was there in the thick of the fight; he wasn't sitting around singing 'Kumbya' (sp?).  And the Wolf that he kept prisoner, saved Denise's life, so there's that.

I'm not talking about the time with Daryl. He came across that main Wolf guy (and maybe one other? my memory with this show isn't what it used to be) in the woods and left him/them tied up in a car. I actually put a lot of the blame on Aaron for the attack, because it was his backpack full of pictures that eventually led them there. But Morgan did come across them first and if he'd killed those guys, who were clearly trying to rob and kill HIM, they might not have ever run into Aaron/Daryl, gone on to ASZ, etc. 

And I'm not trying to totally disparage Morgan. He used to be one of my favorite characters. I was super excited to see him back. I actually LIKED the cheesemaker episode (although the placement felt off) and understood why he'd taken the stance he did. I just thought it would be a temporary stance. That all of his experiences back in the thick of things would teach him that it's just not feasible to live that way. The 4 Wolves he let go almost killed Rick. His best mate. He needs to see that even IF all life is precious (disagree), aren't some lives more precious than others? If it comes to his friends or enemies, wouldn't he rather his friends live? Sometimes you have to kill to stop others from being killed. 

And I still think that Wolf only saved Denise as a shield. He didn't care about her life at all. 

12 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I think Rick Grimes needs to remember that he wouldn't be around to swing his dick all over the Virginia country-side if it wasn't for Morgan.  He doesn't have to kiss Morgan's ass but he could give him a little fucking respect. 

I think Rick gives Morgan respect. He was clearly thrilled to see him back. And he hasn't punished him, banished him, or anything else while Morgan has been living amongst them while adhering to a totally different philosophy than the rest of the community adheres to. He's listened to him, let him give him counsel, etc. I definitely think Rick remembers who saved his ass. Didn't he even have a line this episode that was a call back to very beginning? 

 

7 hours ago, Nashville said:

Morgan actually has a super philosophy; unfortunately, it has a fatal flaw.  It has zero chance of success unless EVERYBODY - and I do mean 100%, no exceptions - buys in to the same philosophy. 

Let one relatively well-armed group reject it, and you get a living demonstration of how in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

That's my point entirely. If Morgan truly wants to embrace that philosophy, he needs to go live alone. Far far away from others. Because the bad guys are always going to be the bad guys. And if you let them go, they're going to rape, torture, eat, and kill the good guys. And you'd think he'd see that, and see that his FRIENDS' lives are more precious than the psychopaths out wandering around, but he just doesn't seem to get it. It's very frustrating. 

[millennium]

27 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

 

That's my point entirely. If Morgan truly wants to embrace that philosophy, he needs to go live alone. Far far away from others. Because the bad guys are always going to be the bad guys. And if you let them go, they're going to rape, torture, eat, and kill the good guys. And you'd think he'd see that, and see that his FRIENDS' lives are more precious than the psychopaths out wandering around, but he just doesn't seem to get it. It's very frustrating. 

Morgan's catch-and-release policy actually flies in the face of his life-first philosophy.  By refusing to expunge the murderous element roaming the countryside, he guarantees more will suffer and die at their hands.  He enables murder.   To prevent more deaths, perhaps someone should kill Morgan.

[Demig]

On 2017-02-13 at 0:32 AM, CletusMusashi said:

To get Zeke to take him seriously, Rick should have had somebody walk behind banging two coconuts together.

I had to log in just to up vote this!!!! Monty Python references always gets me.

[magemaud]

A friend just told me they thought Boots person leading the army at zombie lake might be Carol? 

[TigerLynx]

If it is Carol, that would explain why Rick was smiling.  He is probably counting on Carol taking out the Saviors like she did Terminus.  However, I believe Carol's "I don't want to kill anymore, and I don't want to see anymore people I care about get killed" stance.  Maybe if she finds out what happened to Glenn, that would change her mind.

I've decided Jesus is useless.  For all of his ninja skills and contacts, it seems all Jesus wants to do is find someone else to lead.

[AncientSand]

Overall, it had too much of a late Friends vibe too it with almost of the characters in the picture and everyone gets at least one line.

I did crack up over the 'maybe you can stare him into changing his mind' or however Rick phrased that to Darryl.

[magemaud]

39 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

However, I believe Carol's "I don't want to kill anymore, and I don't want to see anymore people I care about get killed" stance.

Good point, but what she says and what she does are often two different things, don't forget her mild-mannered Susie Homemaker persona at Alexandria

Edited February 16, 2017 by magemaud

[Boofish]

3 hours ago, millennium said:

Morgan's catch-and-release policy actually flies in the face of his life-first philosophy.  By refusing to expunge the murderous element roaming the countryside, he guarantees more will suffer and die at their hands.  He enables murder.   To prevent more deaths, perhaps someone should kill Morgan.

I shall watch once again and gaze mine eyes upon their travails and deliver my decree in the morn after I have partaken in a nutritional supplement. I shall declare whether or not I shall air on the side of Sir Morgan Jones of King County or Sir Richard Grimes of Alexandria. Until such time I invite you to rest your weary heads in our night quarters if you so desire.

[CletusMusashi]

You know, Morgan would be a lot more fun of he talked like King Zeke. In fact, If he did that, I'd even let him keep the old "Broomsticks not BOOMsticks!" policy. Meanwhile, KZ would still be great in his own scenes, because he'd still have Jerry, Shiva, John Travolta's "Battlefield Earth" wig, and a hammock full of bananas for Carol.

God, can you imagine if they did a flashback episode of Z's original negotiation session with Negan?

The episode would start at 9PM next Sunday, and end at, like... August. 

[millennium]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

 There certainly isn't any sense of urgency to get Eugene back.  

To be honest, I wouldn't be all that jazzed about getting Eugene back either.

[nodorothyparker]

Rosita mentioned that Eugene had been taken when they were running down their casualty list after Morgan asked.  But like Rick in hilariously claiming that they had once beaten the Saviors without providing any details for that "victory" over sleeping men, she left out the part where Eugene was taken as a direct consequence of her actions.

We know the show always circles around time and again to Rick always being right and that everyone should just fall in line.  So far, though, they're not giving us one compelling reason for why anyone should want to follow him and no hint of an actual plan beyond "we fight."  Where are all the weapons for that fight going to come from, Rick?  What's the actual strategy?  How do you plan to get around Negan's tactic of retaliating against innocent bystanders instead of the instigators?  No, it doesn't have to be laid out in exact detail right now, but if he really wants people to get on board he ought to be offering something more than marching into these compounds, asking for red shirts, and then sneering at these communities that are doing better than his when they don't immediately comply.

On rewatch, it was interesting to catch that it was sweet young Benjamin counseling Ezekiel to help them, not because he thought them strong or had anything to offer Ezekiel's people but because he said their eyes looked desperate and they were obviously going to fight anyway.  So help them because that's what we do, not because Rick made his case.

[BetyBee]

I've been thinking about Tara's comment about Negan's people maybe being just people trying to get by (JSS?).  I think that the coming fight just might be to take out or capture Negan and that we might finally see the various groups getting along, setting up a society that actually works long term.  That's what I've been waiting to see.  I feel like this show should start gearing up for a series finale and I would like to see it end on a hopeful note.  

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

We know the show always circles around time and again to Rick always being right and that everyone should just fall in line.  

That's the problem. We know something's going to happen to one of the other groups, and we know how this plays out. There's not much drama until maybe the final fight when/if someone unexpected dies. 

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I feel like this show should start gearing up for a series finale and I would like to see it end on a hopeful note.  

I actually think the show could run for a while if TPTB actually had some creativity. 

[BetyBee]

I rewatched to try to figure out how/if Father PP was being intimidated by the shadowy figure.  I have to think that that person was threatening someone (Judith?) or why would he go along when there were many times when he could have run off and raised an alarm?  He wasn't trying to be quiet either.  Either he went willingly or he was protecting Alexandrians, imo.  But I don't know what that one person could do that was so terrifying.  I liked this episode and I am looking forward to learning more.

[TigerLynx]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

I actually think the show could run for a while if TPTB actually had some creativity. 

Unfortunately, the go to story for the writers seems to be Psycho makes an appearance, discover new community that ends up destroyed, and kill a character.  Those SLs can only be recycled so many times before it gets boring.

I don't know if Carol's solution for not wanting to kill anymore or see anyone she cares about get killed will work for her, but at least her stance is, "I'll take care of myself.  I'll defend myself if I have to.  I'll look after myself.  I won't expect anyone else to do it for me," as opposed to lots of people in the ZA who expect other people to do for them, do their killing for them, or people who turn a blind eye to what is really going on because they don't want to deal with it.

The group that showed up at the end seems to be a dues ex machina.  How is it that so many different groups and so many psychos are running around the ZA never running into each other until suddenly they are everywhere?

Edited February 17, 2017 by TigerLynx

[magemaud]

My fervent desire is that Shiva is the one to kill Negan. But I admit to being distracted by every time I see the tiger referred to by name on my closed captioning, all I can think of is the Jewish funeral observance of "sitting shiva." 

[ganesh]

29 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Those SLs can only be recycled so many times before it gets boring.

I'd say they're at that point now, and with the conclusion of the Negan storyline, they seriously need to think about the narrative direction of the show.

 

5 minutes ago, magemaud said:

My fervent desire is that Shiva is the one to kill Negan.

I hope it's Eugene because I like the 'least among us can be our strongest' angle of it. 

[magemaud]

I like that idea! How about Eugene being the one holding Shiva's leash and "siccing" him on Negan

[TigerLynx]

Eugene can feed Negan Junior to Shiva the Tiger.  I want Carl to be about to shoot Negan in the head, one of Negan's henchmen has his gun on Rick, and threatens to kill Rick if Carl kills Negan.  Carl says, "Sorry, Dad, it's for the good of the many," and kills Negan.

I was kind of worried when Michonne told Rick we are the ones who survive because that usually means you are going to end up dead.

[ghoulina]

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

We know the show always circles around time and again to Rick always being right and that everyone should just fall in line.  So far, though, they're not giving us one compelling reason for why anyone should want to follow him and no hint of an actual plan beyond "we fight."  Where are all the weapons for that fight going to come from, Rick?  What's the actual strategy?

It's possible he/they want to know how many people they're working with before they devise a strategy. And maybe they want to hear the thoughts and plans of other groups? It's possible. I keep seeing people saying that Rick just expects people to fall in line with HIM, but he wasn't the one who originally wanted to fight. He wanted to lay low and just do as Negan said. Michonne was against that. Rosita was against that. It seems Maggie and Sasha were as well, maybe Enid. I think this is more of a case of RICK falling in line with the others. 

[ganesh]

The show has been consistently short on strategy though, so I'm not going to hold my breath. That would have been great to see people other than Rick going around strategizing and getting people on board, then now Rick is finally on board so they plot a way to move forward. It's likely something bad is going to happen to the other communities and they'll all be like, 'we have no choice now you were right'. I'd love it if this ended up being a clever scheme. 

Carl killing Negan makes more sense narratively, but I think it still is in like with my point, conceptually. Though Carl isn't really 'least'. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by ganesh

[piequinn35]

Michonne killed the governor as she was close to Andrea, so let Maggie kill Negan, not Shiva or Coral or Reek.

[ghoulina]

I really kind of want to see Maggie do it as well. But I wouldn't mind Carl, after the whole arm incident. 

[Mu Shu]

I loathe Maggie.  Rosita needs to kill Negan.

[mightysparrow]

4 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Unfortunately, the go to story for the writers seems to be Psycho makes an appearance, discover new community that ends up destroyed, and kill a character.  Those SLs can only be recycled so many times before it gets boring.

I don't know if Carol's solution for not wanting to kill anymore or see anyone she cares about get killed will work for her, but at least her stance is, "I'll take care of myself.  I'll defend myself if I have to.  I'll look after myself.  I won't expect anyone else to do it for me," as opposed to lots of people in the ZA who expect other people to do for them, do their killing for them, or people who turn a blind eye to what is really going on because they don't want to deal with it.

The group that showed up at the end seems to be a dues ex machina.  How is it that so many different groups and so many psychos are running around the ZA never running into each other until suddenly they are everywhere?

The thing is, Carol IS being looked after.  Carol has round the clock security; she's probably one of the safest women in the ZA.  If Carol REALLY wanted to be totally self-reliant and on her own, she'd be gone, instead of a stone's throw away from the Kingdom where she has not one, but two Black men willing to look out for her.  As King Ezekiel would say, 'methinks the lady doth protest too much'.

On the other hand, Rick is going around to the different communities asking them to basically be his red-shirts.  It's not much of a surprise that he's been turned down so far.

I totally agree about the deus ex machina quality of the group at the end of the show.  They may have been wearing black but they definitely had red t-shirts underneath.   They are definitely just Rick Grimes' cannon fodder.

Edited to add:  I think I'd like to see the community of women be the ones to take out Negan.  I loved Glenn and liked Abraham so I wouldn't complain if Maggie or Sasha had a hand (Rosita can take a seat) but Seaside really have first dibs.  He not only killed their loved ones, he's the reason they live in such a secluded, constantly ready to kill manner.

Stories like Seaside make it hard for me to accept that Negan's followers are just good folks trying to get along.  Some of them might be good people, but Negan didn't kill all those men and boys on his own.  I find it so hard to believe that one man (especially THAT man) holds such power over so many people.  So if Negan goes, his inner circle is going to have to go too.  They can't just say they were 'following orders'.

Edited February 17, 2017 by mightysparrow

[Ohwell]

19 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

The thing is, Carol IS being looked after.  Carol has round the clock security; she's probably one of the safest women in the ZA.  If Carol REALLY wanted to be totally self-reliant and on her own, she'd be gone, instead of a stone's throw away from the Kingdom where she has not one, but two Black men willing to look out for her.  As King Ezekiel would say, 'methinks the lady doth protest too much'.

Yes.  Carol sits on her sofa by the fire just waiting for Morgan or Ezekiel to knock on her door with a damn pomegranate or something.  I don't care what she says, she wants the attention.  I know it won't happen but I dream of her sitting on that sofa, waiting and waiting for someone to knock--and no one does.  

Rosita fucked up trying to take out Negan but I wouldn't mind if it she finally got it right.

[TigerLynx]

Carol might be sitting on her sofa, but she is NOT running around knocking on other people's doors wanting to drag them into a war.  Carol may like the attention, and if it stops, she might try getting attention in some other way.  However, right now Carol is not the one oppressing people and stealing from them (Saviors), not trying to find people to sign up to kill off the Saviors (Rick's group), and is not trying to find a leader to replace Gregory because he thinks Gregory is doing a lousy job, but doesn't want to be in charge himself (Jesus)

The ZA is made up of psychos, people to stupid to live, people to weak to fight when they should, people who take actions without thinking and get people killed, and a very small percentage of people who are smart, just trying to survive, and don't want to hurt anyone else.  There needs to be more of the smart people who don't want to hurt anyone else otherwise humans are doomed.

I think it makes Rick's group look foolish to keep trying to kill Negan, and failing.  This is the problem with the writers dragging SLs out, and only having action in a few episodes.  Everyone is an incompetent idiot until the writers decide it's time to get rid of the latest problem, and then suddenly a scheme finally works, and the bad guy is gone.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

The ZA is made up of psychos, people to stupid to live, people to weak to fight when they should, people who take actions without thinking and get people killed, and a very small percentage of people who are smart, just trying to survive, and don't want to hurt anyone else.  There needs to be more of the smart people who don't want to hurt anyone else otherwise humans are doomed.

I don't doubt that there would be the former group of people, but I just never bought that the world would consist of 97% of them. 

[Ohwell]

13 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Carol might be sitting on her sofa, but she is NOT running around knocking on other people's doors wanting to drag them into a war.  Carol may like the attention, and if it stops, she might try getting attention in some other way.  However, right now Carol is not the one oppressing people and stealing from them (Saviors), not trying to find people to sign up to kill off the Saviors (Rick's group), and is not trying to find a leader to replace Gregory because he thinks Gregory is doing a lousy job, but doesn't want to be in charge himself (Jesus)

She not doing any of those things but the point is, she seems to be perfectly fine sitting on her sofa, waiting for "the help" to come to her.   She knows that they will come, and if she really didn't want to be bothered, if she really wanted to be alone, she'd just go off and find a place to live alone.  Or, she just wouldn't answer her damn door.  

I'm just sick of poor, poor Carol.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Ohwell

[TigerLynx]

I preferred the Carol who took action to the current version.  I didn't like Carol when they were on the farm, and she was expecting everyone else to find her daughter for her.  However, this version of Carol isn't putting other people in danger.  If Morgan wants to rehabilitate a wolf or anyone else, he should do it far away from other people.  Instead he lies about it, and puts people in danger.  Spencer wants Rick dead, but he's to weak and spineless to do it himself so he tries to get psycho Negan to do it for him.  Like nothing could go wrong with than plan.  At least Spencer only got himself killed.

Jesus doesn't like the way Gregory is running the Hill Top, but he doesn't want to run it himself.  Instead he wants to find someone else to lead so he can follow them.  If Rick and company want to try and kill Negan and his group, that is their choice, but no one is obligated to go along with their plan.

Eric is worried about Aaron, but Aaron is the one who brought Rick's group to Alexandria.  He wanted them there because the Alexandrian's didn't know how to fight.  They left people behind, and let them be killed, eaten or turned by Walkers.

There are to many people in this ZA who expect other people to do for them, and I wouldn't be lining up to protect, kill or die for them either.

[magemaud]

Maybe they could script Negan's demise like an Agatha Christie novel where each person who has a motive to kill him gets a chance to deal the final blow, but nobody knows for sure who it was

[Jordan27]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:34 PM, Mu Shu said:

It's pretty funny that show got sick of people bitching about Negans speaching, so they left him out of the opener, yet got a fucking walkie talkie for him to speechify on in absentee.  That's some serious fuck you, show.  

These are filmed well before any feedback is heard.

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:21 PM, candall said:

Agreed, but I'm calling a technical on "A familiar face resurfaces."

How is Morgan a technical?

Edited February 18, 2017 by Jordan27

[Raven1707]

54 minutes ago, Jordan27 said:

These are filmed well before any feedback is heard.

Exactly. Their only option after filming ends for the season is in editing -- they could cut scenes entirely if absolutely necessary, but that risks having to cut so much that an episode runs short. They're certainly not going to call everyone back to film "to order" what the fans demand.

[Mu Shu]

Ooh, expert professionals on the inter webs. What are the odds of that?  

[CletusMusashi]

11 hours ago, magemaud said:

Maybe they could script Negan's demise like an Agatha Christie novel where each person who has a motive to kill him gets a chance to deal the final blow, but nobody knows for sure who it was

Oh,god. If only Abraham were still alive to do it, in full military regalia, with a jar of mustard.

[AnnaMayWong]

On 2/16/2017 at 1:48 PM, Boofish said:

I shall watch once again and gaze mine eyes upon their travails and deliver my decree in the morn after I have partaken in a nutritional supplement. I shall declare whether or not I shall air on the side of Sir Morgan Jones of King County or Sir Richard Grimes of Alexandria. Until such time I invite you to rest your weary heads in our night quarters if you so desire.

TOO funny!