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kariyaki

S04.E02: XXX

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Flint give in to Billy's authority; Eleanor has a plan for Rogers; Silver turns to an unlikely source for help; Max is put on notice.

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I feel for Max. She's in a shitty position and trying not to screw anyone over too hard.

I don't really buy Billy not besting Flint in a fight.

So is Madi pregnant? Seems weird to bring a pregnancy on to the show but the hand on stomach usually signals it. 

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About Flint besting Billy in a fight I really think that's about how it's conceived. Sword fight? I'm a 43-year-old fencer and I guarantee I could take most 20-year-olds with comparatively little experience.

Fistfight? LMAO.

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10 hours ago, ulkis said:

So is Madi pregnant? Seems weird to bring a pregnancy on to the show but the hand on stomach usually signals it. 

Babies do not belong on this show at all. I'm pretty sure she's not pregnant. That's just an acting choice by the actress. She may even be directed that way. I recall last season she'd often rest her hand on her stomach in various scenes.  All that said, I'm really enjoying the intellect and cunning of Madi. I loved how she kept the boys in check, at least for a little while. LOL.

I understand Billy's position, but I was with Madi and Flint on this one. Taking an estate would be good in the short term, but would ultimately undermine the bigger picture of taking back Nassau.

10 hours ago, ulkis said:

I don't really buy Billy not besting Flint in a fight.

Did he really lose the fight though? It seemed like things were pretty even, until the militia showed up. Then they all had no choice but to flee or be killed. 

10 hours ago, ulkis said:

I feel for Max. She's in a shitty position and trying not to screw anyone over too hard.

Agreed. While Eleanor has certainly put herself in a position of being virtually untouchable, at the moment. Max is pretty much assed out.  No one has her back, which sadly has been her story nearly the entire series.

Edited by Enero
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He knocked Billy to the ground a couple times, and I think that's where Billy was when they got interrupted, but I guess technically the fight wasn't done.

If Flint hadn't been there I think Billy would have acquiesced. But since he was I think Billy was mostly motivated by wanting to contradict Flint.

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I love that Madi is a boss in her own right and not just Silver's woman. 

I feel for Max but her speech to Silver left a bad taste in my.mouth.  Seems to me that Max forgets that it was piracy and the anti-civilization nature of Nassau that allowed her to get to her current position. 

Billy and Flint try to hack each other to death...how do they come back from that?

I knew that Eleanor would use her new respectable position to gain some type of influence with her family.  

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I hoped that Billy would die in this fight. He was annoying to me since S3. I guess Flint is just more charismatic, but I'm on his side in this conflict. 

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The guy who has it in for Max (Berringer maybe?) definitely saw the note passed to her, and, considering her entourage, probably was able to follow her out to the meet with LJS. I doubt she's long for this world, but who knows?

  Billy has size and strength on Flint. Flint was clearly wearing plot armor. That said, Billy did allow his dislike of Flint to get the better of his judgment. I like all three leaders, but, in the end, there can be only one.

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In a swordfight Flint has Navy training on his side. Besides, the fight wasn't over and it was pretty even.

Edited by Tanya852
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I really felt for Max in that last scene.  Silver was right that she would not have obtained the gold had it not been for him (season 2).  

However, Max knows that even if the pirates are successful with the army on the island now, they will never beat the entire British navy, which was why she told Silver that all she wants is for this to end.

I feel for Max as a character.  She is on the outs in so many different ways.  Being biracial today is different from being biracial in the 18th century.  Today you can be biracial and become president of the United States, but in the 18th things were different, especially if you were low born.  Max, even though she is light skinned, isn't white; Eleanor, because she is white and high born was able to use that to get Rogers on her side, and to get him to marry her.  Max never had that advantage.  

Max also doesn't have the advantage that Madi has; Madi's parents were rulers of their people, making Madi more like Eleanor than Max.  Max is on the outs, at that time, in so many different ways, race, class, sexuality and she has always known that.  That is why in the very first episode of the first season, she told Eleanor that she wanted to leave Nassau and just find an island so they could be together.  Max knew that she would be an outsider no matter what.  

I have always detested Eleanor as a character because I saw her as a rich girl who was slumming and when she got older, would realize her position and turn her back on all her "friends" and marry the "right" type of man, which is sort of what she did.

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Silver continues to be the absolute best, going in one episode from being a chained up captive of an outcast planning to turn him in for the bounty to convincing him that he really is the great pirate king of the stories despite having no weapons, men, or even a peg leg to stump around on.  Welcome, Israel Hands.  He showed here why every person along the way who recognized just what he might be capable of was right to do so, and his confrontation with Max at the end was just everything.  He's right that she likely never would have gotten her hands on any of the treasure in the first place if it wasn't for him, and she makes the same mistake nearly everyone who's known him from the start when he was still squirrely little Silver has in underestimating him and thinking he can so easily be taken.

I can't really even blame Max though.  She's feeling increasingly fenced in watching all the pirates she knew going to the gallows, Eleanor's skipping town for a convenient if previously unmentioned rich (grand)daddy, and she and her interests are being left to fend for themselves at the mercy of the British captain who clearly isn't buying what she's selling.  If she even makes it out of Nassau, hopefully richer than rich granddaddy will take one look at his raggedy pirate queen granddaughter who barely escaped the noose in London and is now married to a scandalously divorced man one step ahead of debtor's prison and tell her thanks, but no.  You got yourself into your own mess, you get yourself out of it.

Billy, Billy, Billy.  I get it.  You're just sick of Flint.  You're sick of his machinations.  You're sick of following him and cleaning up whatever terrible thing he's gotten you all into now.  But firing on him, further thinning your own numbers, and getting into a knockdown drag out as the island militia is already coming over the horizon is just stupid.  I do wonder where they even go from here.  Kudos to Madi for being clear-eyed about exactly who she's allied with and seeing the bigger picture.

I loved the story Blackbeard told about Vane.   Where others saw omens or bigger meaning, he saw dinner.  The shared grief between him, Jack, and Anne is really coming through in a quietly effective way, and Jack and Anne both gave really lovely speeches in eventually pushing their joint efforts to go after Woodes for now instead of possibly wasting dwindling resources to get Eleanor.

This is really shaping up to be a war of attrition on both sides and some of the decision making coming from that is fascinating.

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This show, man, this show...

Yeah, cant be more constructive than that right now.

Damn, it's good to have Black Sails back ! ... even if it's the end...

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Max is toast. There's literally nobody except maybe Eleanor who cares if she lives, and virtually nobody who doesn't want her dead now.

Be afraid, Max. Be very afraid.

Edited by Kathemy
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On 2/5/2017 at 10:03 AM, Enero said:

I understand Billy's position, but I was with Madi and Flint on this one. Taking an estate would be good in the short term, but would ultimately undermine the bigger picture of taking back Nassau.

I'm not seeing Billy having much in the way of strategic thinking. He's letting his Flint hate just drive his mind. 

I do love Jack's snark. "Oh, he can come and get you? I will be sure to pass that on."

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Oh Billy. I get that your pissed off at Flint and his never ending crusades he refuses to explain to anyone, and that you've spent years cleaning up his messes, but your letting your anger get in the way of your good sense. This time, I was actually totally on Flints side. Attacking the one plantation is short sighted and will hurt them in the long term, and if it was anyone else, Billy probably would have agreed. Your smarter than this Billy! I expect better from you.

I love Madi. She is clearly a force to be reckoned with, and she isn't afraid to show that her part in this alliance is just as important as anyone else's. I also dig her and Silver together, I'm hoping we can see more of them as a power couple soon. Speaking of, Silver is just so fascinating to watch. His ability to get people to listen to him and but whatever he's selling is pretty damn impressive. In the words of Ryan O`Reily, he's like the Lord of the Dance, he's got moves.

I feel for Max, although I think her anger towards Silver is a little misplaced. If she should be mad at anyone, she should be mad at Eleanor. She's the one running off to the new world to beg from rich grandpa, and leaving her in a lurch, again. Silver might be self centered, but at least she usually knows where she stands with him. Eleanor is all over the place and rather wishy washy. Its too bad Max and Siler are pissed at each other though. I like them working together being devious.

It really is interesting to see all the different sides and factions, all of whom have string pros and cons to them, plus with the added values dissonance of the times. There are plenty of characters I'm sympathetic towards and root for, but its hard to pick an actual side.

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I think Max is angry at Eleanor as well. As for her anger towards Silver, I think it's partly also because she knows not too long ago he was going to trick his whole crew out of the treasure, and here he comes along self-righteously condemning anyone who isn't with the pirates. For her, it must be a little rich that now he is being portrayed as some sort of pirate Robin Hood.

Edited by ulkis
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Gosh I love a show that surprises me and when Billy said "Fire" I literally gasped.  I did not think the show would go there.  That being said -- Damn Billy!  You raided that plantation because you needed MORE men.  You're going to vent your frustration at the Flint-Madi alliance by firing on the guys who are on YOUR side?  Damn, son -- that was not smart.

And then Max met Silver.  I stood up.  I got up out of my chair to stand in front of the TV.  I wanted a ring-side-seat on that conversation.  I vividly recall those two meeting in the very first episode of the very first season but when was the last time those two laid eyes on one another?  Was it when they were plotting to sell the stolen page all the way back in season 1?  If I recall correctly, Max betrayed Silver and told Eleanor where the deal was going down.  Yes, I recall that she was forced to tell (by Eleanor) but does Silver know that?  There is SO MUCH HISTORY between those two.  I'll be honest -- I don't like Max.  Never have.  She's made some extraordinarily stupid decisions in the past.  Deciding tonight to try to capture and hold "Long" John Silver -- well that's par for the course.  Of course it failed.  And now I'm afraid she's in serious trouble because that creepy guy that Eleanor and Rogers left in charge saw her get that letter, I'm sure he had her followed, and I'm confident her secret meeting with Silver is going to be misconstrued.  I do not think she is long for this world. 

I loved, loved, loved Rackham and Anne and Blackbeard struggling with their desire to avenge Vane versus doing the smart thing and pursuing Rogers.  I love love love that the ghost of Charles Vane -- the thought of what he would say if he saw them dithering over the decision -- is what finally settled the matter.

I had forgotten that Anne believes Max betrayed her -- that she thinks Max lied to her, promising Jack would be saved if she (Anne) gave up the treasure.  Somebody help me out -- DID Max betray Anne?  Or did Rogers lie to Max, saying he would free Jack and then failing to keep his word?  Yeah, Max is not going to make it out of this season alive.  With Eleanor gone, Anne seeking vengeance, and even Featherstone and Idelle working against her --  she is fast running out of allies.

48 minutes ago, ulkis said:

As for her anger towards Silver, I think it's partly also because she knows not too long ago he was going to trick his whole crew out of the treasure, and here he comes along self-righteously condemning anyone who isn't with the pirates.

Okay that's a really good point. Max wasn't around to see or comprehend the metamorphosis that John went through when he saved the crew, lost his leg, and was subsequently chosen by the crew as their representative (quartermaster).  I loved John's transformation over the last couple of season but Max has no idea why or how it has happened or even that is HAS happened.  To her, John is just the self-serving, devious dude she was plotting with not so long ago.  That being said -- her judging John is rather like the pot calling the kettle black.  She's changed too during the last couple of seasons -- she tired of all the strife.  But she and John were two peas in a pod not so long ago.

Edited by WatchrTina
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4 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

 Was it when they were plotting to sell the stolen page all the way back in season 1?  If I recall correctly, Max betrayed Silver and told Eleanor where the deal was going down.  Yes, I recall that she was forced to tell (by Eleanor) but does Silver know that?  There is SO MUCH HISTORY between those two. 

No, it was in season 2. Silver helped her clean up Anne's murders and then later he let her in on the secret that the treasure was still on the beach and offered her a share if she could find a crew to help take it.

Is Anne still looking for revenge? She didn't seem to want it much anymore from what she was saying.

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17 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

That being said -- her judging John is rather like the pot calling the kettle black. 

This show has a lot of judgemental pirates, heh.

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34 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Is Anne still looking for revenge? She didn't seem to want it much anymore from what she was saying.

I think she has very mixed feelings.  I think she believes that if she sees Max, she going to want to kill her.  And she doesn't want to want to kill her.  So she's avoiding her.  

Edited by WatchrTina
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On a completely different topic -- where the hell are the two new characters they introduced last season?

Remember Ben Gunn  -- the dude with the beautiful eyes they met in the Maroon's cage?  I caught a glimpse of him on the beach with TeamBilly in the first episode of the season but I haven't seen him since.

And remember Jacob Garrett  -- the smooth talker they enlisted to stir up the crowd to oppose the hanging of Vane?  I did not see him on the beach (or anywhere else) but I like to think that he has spent the last 6 months (or however much time passed between seasons 3 and 4) hard at work shit-stirring on behalf of TeamPirate and that he helped orchestrate the backlash against Eleanor after Vane's death.

Happily, I did catch a glimpse of Joji -- the silent, long-haired Samurai pirate -- on a life boat in episode 1 so I assume he made it to the beach.  But why wasn't such a gifted fighter featured in the pirate-on-pirate battle in this episode?  Did I just miss him?

Edited by WatchrTina

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This show really has got to be the most underrated show out there right now. It delivers every single episode, and yet no one outside this forum ever seems to be talking about it.

Way back at the start of the show I had Max pegged as Silver's future wife (she fits the description in "Treasure Island") and as much as I like Madi, I REALLY loved their rapport together. Perhaps my favourite scene of the whole show was Silver slyly asking her: "do YOU know of a crew that can go fetch the Urca gold?" (knowing full well that she did). And now... sigh. It was inevitable they would come to this, but that doesn't mean it don't hurt. I'm sure Silver looked relived to see Max, right before things got nasty.

This episode pretty much solidified my belief that Eleanor will make it out of the show alive. She's in a reasonably secure position and Teach/Jack have just relinquished their need for vengeance. Of course, that doesn't mean the show won't surprise me later, but I think she's safe for now: I'm just praying that she'll manage to carry Max with her, who is certainly in a more precarious position (and always has been) even though all she's ever wanted is for things to just calm down.

What a fantastic character arc for Silver. Simply gabbing his way out of captivity by identifying Israel Hands and playing on his hatred for Teach - it's not like he wasn't capable of this right from the start of the show, but the WAY he goes about doing it and REASONS for doing so have changed drastically. He's not a trickster just trying to keep body and soul together anymore, but a ruthless strategist with a singular goal. I can see the famous character from Stevenson's novel emerging with each episode that passes.

One thing I also like: that they've never felt the need to delve into Silver's backstory. We've gotten prolonged flashbacks for Flint, and mentions from other characters of their homes/families/etc - but Silver remains a complete mystery. And I hope it stays that way. As he said, he's nobody from nowhere, yet look what he's managed to achieve. That's the key to the whole character, both here and in Stevenson's novel.

Ah, Billy. I knew this had to happen sooner or later, if not just because it aligns with his fate in "Treasure Island". Flint had the right plan, Madi could see the long term consequences, but Billy was fuelled by Flint-inspired distrust and loyalty to his men. Can't wait till they simultaneously spring all the slaves though (presumably that's what will happen), and it was a fantastic moment when Ruth plucked the gun out of her mistress's hand. I hope we get more out of that family dynamic, though it's likely we won't see them again.

Madi is definitely living up to her role as princess of her people: perceptive enough to see Billy's importance, clever enough to keep Flint on his toes, and wise enough to make the tough choice to leave the slaves (at least for now). I can believe Silver would sincerely fall for her, and that she has enough intelligence/allure to surpass Flint's importance in how Silver feels about both of them. 

Provided Eleanor gets that far, I'm looking forward to seeing how her extended family responds to her.

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1 hour ago, Ravenya003 said:

Provided Eleanor gets that far, I'm looking forward to seeing how her extended family responds to her.

I think her ship will be captured. Does that count as a spoiler if they showed it in the promos? If it is, I'll delete it.

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Eleanor no longer serves any real purpose for the show's story. The pro-English faction has to take at least one in the L column. No, the bloodthirsty punk in charge of security doesn't count. Also introducing her running to her granddaddy and coming back with a fleet this far into the show would feel like an ex machina.

If the show has any guts, she'll hang.

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6 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

On a completely different topic -- where the hell are the two new characters they introduced last season?

Remember Ben Gunn  -- the dude with the beautiful eyes they met in the Maroon's cage?  I caught a glimpse of him on the beach with TeamBilly in the first episode of the season but I haven't seen him since.

 

I think I caught a glimpse of Ben Gunn among the crowd at the plantation, but I've only watched the episode once. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't get anything more substantial in future episodes however, because he has a fairly significant role in Treasure Island. 

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1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

Eleanor no longer serves any real purpose for the show's story. The pro-English faction has to take at least one in the L column. No, the bloodthirsty punk in charge of security doesn't count. Also introducing her running to her granddaddy and coming back with a fleet this far into the show would feel like an ex machina.

If the show has any guts, she'll hang.

I think Eleanor won't survive the season if for no other reason that she had a teary-eyed parting with Woodes Rogers, with Rogers assuring her that he'll see her again.

On a show like this, that's as good as a death sentence. They won't get that reunion. 

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So we're seeing then the slow end for everyone on the show, correct? More stupid decisions, like Billy's and Max's in this ep, that further weaken them all and lead to the eventual demise. It feels sad to see it, and to paraphrase Flint ... "we are so close."  The very thing you fight for is your weakness, and dooms you to the more orderly sweep of history. Argh (pun intended).

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12 hours ago, ganesh said:

I just need everyone to say "pirate king" more. Because that's the best job title ever. 

Hm, dunno.  "Mark Watney, space pirate" is right up there :P

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10 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Happily, I did catch a glimpse of Joji -- the silent, long-haired Samurai pirate -- on a life boat in episode 1 so I assume he made it to the beach.  But why wasn't such a gifted fighter featured in the pirate-on-pirate battle in this episode?  Did I just miss him?

He was standing on the row behind Flint (and Madi) during the standoff with Billy

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On 2/5/2017 at 3:10 PM, FlowerofCarnage said:

I feel for Max but her speech to Silver left a bad taste in my.mouth.  Seems to me that Max forgets that it was piracy and the anti-civilization nature of Nassau that allowed her to get to her current position. 

I don't think she's forgotten anything, otherwise she would have tattled on Featherstone and Idelle. The pirates allowed her to get to her position, but they also let Vane lock her up and have his crew rape her.

On 2/6/2017 at 9:36 AM, nodorothyparker said:

she makes the same mistake nearly everyone who's known him from the start when he was still squirrely little Silver has in underestimating him and thinking he can so easily be taken.

I don't think she think she underestimated him, at least, not that badly. She brought about 4 or 5 men to take away a one-legged man. (Although how she knew, or if she knew, that Silver wasn't gonna have a bunch of men with him I don't know.) It felt like Silver and Hands were wearing a bit of plot armor themselves. But I don't know how she thought she could make Silver stay wherever they were gonna take him even if she did manage to get away with it. Unless she was lying and they really were going to do away with him.

I suspect Eleanor's family will do something besides telling her to go screw herself, even if they don't necessarily help her, because otherwise I don't think there'd be much point in bringing them up. I suspect they will try to screw Eleanor and Rogers afterwards, if they re-take Nassau. If they don't ask Eleanor to betray Rogers herself for whatever reason.

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On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 6:36 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I can't really even blame Max though.  She's feeling increasingly fenced in watching all the pirates she knew going to the gallows, Eleanor's skipping town for a convenient if previously unmentioned rich (grand)daddy, and she and her interests are being left to fend for themselves at the mercy of the British captain who clearly isn't buying what she's selling.  If she even makes it out of Nassau, hopefully richer than rich granddaddy will take one look at his raggedy pirate queen granddaughter who barely escaped the noose in London and is now married to a scandalously divorced man one step ahead of debtor's prison and tell her thanks, but no.  You got yourself into your own mess, you get yourself out of it.

 

I loved the story Blackbeard told about Vane.   Where others saw omens or bigger meaning, he saw dinner.  The shared grief between him, Jack, and Anne is really coming through in a quietly effective way, and Jack and Anne both gave really lovely speeches in eventually pushing their joint efforts to go after Woodes for now instead of possibly wasting dwindling resources to get Eleanor.

 

 I think it was in the first season when Eleanor's rich family in the colonies was mentioned.? Something about her father being a bit of a black sheep and coming to Nassau to do...??? and bringing her with him (and her mother?) when she was just a small child. I swear I didn't make that up in my head ;-)

DINNER! dear god I played that back several times and could not understand what was being said. Dinner. That makes so much sense.

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20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I feel for Max, although I think her anger towards Silver is a little misplaced. If she should be mad at anyone, she should be mad at Eleanor. She's the one running off to the new world to beg from rich grandpa, and leaving her in a lurch, again.

Why is Eleanor responsible for Max in any way? Eleanor explained to Max-- face to face-- what she was doing and why she was doing it and Max seemed to understand. And we saw in a past season a little of where Max comes from --  why would she go to the new world? Nassau is her home.

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2 hours ago, taanja said:

Why is Eleanor responsible for Max in any way? Eleanor explained to Max-- face to face-- what she was doing and why she was doing it and Max seemed to understand. And we saw in a past season a little of where Max comes from --  why would she go to the new world? Nassau is her home.

I think Max has every right to be frustrated with Eleanor (and Rodgers) running off (a) during this volatile time with the pirate trials and (b) leaving nutbar Berringer in charge. That's just asking for a disaster to happen, and Max--as usual--will be the one left cleaning up the mess. 

There's an interesting parallel to the pirate/Maroon alliance where Max and Silver are the ones holding their respective coalitions together. While Silver has Madi acting as his proxy, Max is left to try and manage Team Civilization with a disgraced extremist who seems all too happy to burn everything down (and clearly doesn't trust Max or care about the street). Eleanor's comment about Berringer reads to me that she is hoping for Berringer to go fire-and-blood on any resistance so Rodgers will have plausible deniability.

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On February 7, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Ravenya003 said:

 

This show really has got to be the most underrated show out there right now. It delivers every single episode, and yet no one outside this forum ever seems to be talking about it.

 

You must have never been to Tumblr, or Facebook. (LOL)

Edited by Neurochick
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14 hours ago, taanja said:
  On 2/6/2017 at 9:36 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I can't really even blame Max though.  She's feeling increasingly fenced in watching all the pirates she knew going to the gallows, Eleanor's skipping town for a convenient if previously unmentioned rich (grand)daddy, and she and her interests are being left to fend for themselves at the mercy of the British captain who clearly isn't buying what she's selling.  If she even makes it out of Nassau, hopefully richer than rich granddaddy will take one look at his raggedy pirate queen granddaughter who barely escaped the noose in London and is now married to a scandalously divorced man one step ahead of debtor's prison and tell her thanks, but no.  You got yourself into your own mess, you get yourself out of it.

This!  Eleanor's reasoning that her rich relatives in Philly will welcome her with open, opportunistic and cash filled arms doesn't make any sense.  They are rich, powerful & influential in their own right as Eleanor herself described them.  If Grandpa Moneybags is one of the richest families in the Colonies, why would he ever invite a scandalous granddaughter and her equally scandalous, penniless, divorced and disgraced husband into his world?  Governor Sexy Eyes can't provide any cachet or additional influence/power/money. Maybe, down the road he could... if/when he defeats the pirates and restores Nassau to the Crown, he'd be a more valuable in-law.   Maybe Eleanor's real scheme is to blackmail her family to help out financially - i.e.- give me money to go away or I spill the beans about your real rags-to-riches background.  Otherwise, it doesn't makes any sense for the morals and social mores of the Colonial era.

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She said that her family doesn't have the status in London society that they really crave, so it would seem she's banking on that or has an unspoken other motive.

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I don't think Eleanor is a strong character at all.  As I said before, to me she's a rich girl slumming.  Someone who can use their privilege and run back to their wealthy family when things get rough.  If it had been Max and not Eleanor in that prison cell at the beginning of season 3, I doubt Rogers would have taken HER to Nassau to help him with the pirates and I seriously doubt he would have married her.  

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30 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

This!  Eleanor's reasoning that her rich relatives in Philly will welcome her with open, opportunistic and cash filled arms doesn't make any sense.  They are rich, powerful & influential in their own right as Eleanor herself described them.  If Grandpa Moneybags is one of the richest families in the Colonies, why would he ever invite a scandalous granddaughter and her equally scandalous, penniless, divorced and disgraced husband into his world?  Governor Sexy Eyes can't provide any cachet or additional influence/power/money. Maybe, down the road he could... if/when he defeats the pirates and restores Nassau to the Crown, he'd be a more valuable in-law.   Maybe Eleanor's real scheme is to blackmail her family to help out financially - i.e.- give me money to go away or I spill the beans about your real rags-to-riches background.  Otherwise, it doesn't makes any sense for the morals and social mores of the Colonial era.

The old man would help Eleanor because she is his granddaughter and he loves her and she is in need. It's pretty common for people to put aside their disapproval or distaste of a family member's life style and bad choices to help for no other reason than because that person is family.

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59 minutes ago, orza said:

The old man would help Eleanor because she is his granddaughter and he loves her and she is in need. It's pretty common for people to put aside their disapproval or distaste of a family member's life style and bad choices to help for no other reason than because that person is family.

You may be right, but in the 18th century; (hell, even today) parents can cut off their own children for marrying someone they don't approve of, or haven a lifestyle they don't approve of.

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15 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

You may be right, but in the 18th century; (hell, even today) parents can cut off their own children for marrying someone they don't approve of, or haven a lifestyle they don't approve of.

Just look at what Thomas Hamilton's father did to him. 

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1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

You may be right, but in the 18th century; (hell, even today) parents can cut off their own children for marrying someone they don't approve of, or haven a lifestyle they don't approve of.

Sure, some people do that but that action says more about the character of the person doing the cutting off than the object of his disapproval. It takes a pretty self-righteous, heartless person to turn turn his back on his child or grandchild in need. I think more people would quietly people offer financial support, perhaps with the condition that it must be on the down-low to keep up appearances in one's social circle. Disapproving of a child's life choices and wanting to maintain some distance while keeping a willingness to help in an emergency and hating that child to the point of wanting him to suffer are two very different things. Most parents can't bring themselves to hate their children.

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12 minutes ago, orza said:

Sure, some people do that but that action says more about the character of the person doing the cutting off than the object of his disapproval. It takes a pretty self-righteous, heartless person to turn turn his back on his child or grandchild in need. I think more people would quietly people offer financial support, perhaps with the condition that it must be on the down-low to keep up appearances in one's social circle. Disapproving of a child's life choices and wanting to maintain some distance while keeping a willingness to help in an emergency and hating that child to the point of wanting him to suffer are two very different things. Most parents can't bring themselves to hate their children.

Someone upthread brought up Thomas Hamilton's father.  What he did was pretty awful.

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1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

Someone upthread brought up Thomas Hamilton's father.  What he did was pretty awful.

Yes, he was an awful person and his actions spoke volumes about his character. He was self-righteous, judgmental and unforgiving, all of which are very ugly character traits. He was clearly shown to be the villain in that situation.

Other people might have the attitude of do whatever in private and we'll look away but don't embarrass the family with a scandal. However, that does not make for big drama.

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1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

You may be right, but in the 18th century; (hell, even today) parents can cut off their own children for marrying someone they don't approve of, or haven a lifestyle they don't approve of.

But
1. The transgression was done by her father and she did not have any choice in it since he took her when she was still a child.
2. Her father is dead which makes it more likely for the granddad to accept her back

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7 hours ago, Neurochick said:

You must have never been to Tumblr, or Facebook. (LOL)

Facebook no, Tumblr yes (but then I only follow one other person who seems to be interested in the show). 

I still don't feel it gets much mainstream attention though.

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I honestly can't remember if Eleanor mentioned Grandpa Moneybags in the first season or not.  It's been so long since I've watched it.  But assuming that she hasn't seen any of that family since she was a child (if ever) we can't say if they would love or feel anything at all for her.  It fairly reeks of entitlement on her part that she even considers it a viable option to show up after however many years and expect them to bail her and her debtor husband out.

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Remember Ben Gunn  -- the dude with the beautiful eyes they met in the Maroon's cage?  I caught a glimpse of him on the beach with TeamBilly in the first episode of the season but I haven't seen him since.

And remember Jacob Garrett  -- the smooth talker they enlisted to stir up the crowd to oppose the hanging of Vane?  I did not see him on the beach (or anywhere else)

Both Ben and Jacob are among Billy's men. They've been in the background in several scenes. They both have thick, heavy beards now. I've noticed Ben several times in the background behind Billy, first on the beach and then in the standoff against Flint.

Quote

Somebody help me out -- DID Max betray Anne?  Or did Rogers lie to Max, saying he would free Jack and then failing to keep his word?

If my memory serves me correctly -- Max lied to Anne about Jack being tortured because she knew it would prompt Anne into turning over the cache in exchange for Jack. It was after that that Max found out Spain had changed the terms and were demanding Jack, too. Max did nothing to help Jack or warn Anne. In fact, she sat drinking with Eleanor while believing that Anne would fight to the death when she realized England was not turning over Jack to her. She even warned Eleanor that something was up when she was told Anne hadn't fought back at the non-exchange (because Vane had gotten to Anne by then). I'd consider what Max did a betrayal.

I've never been an Eleanor fan but now I find her totally useless. She seems to serve no purpose but to be Rogers "little woman" and someone to explain his storyline to aloud. Who is this person wearing Eleanor's face? Because the one I  knew and felt ambivalent about for 3 seasons was not the woman who'd sit in a  sewing circle while a man called all the shots for her.

Edited by Garnett7

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