Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, screamin said:

True, but it's the Iron Throne that's been the prize everyone's been fighting for all along, and honestly seven small kingdoms just seem less unwieldy than one kingdom held together at resentful cross-purposes by conquest over distances too huge to bridge easily.

Eight small kingdoms just means constant war between them, by comparison.  The period of the Targaryen monarchy was more peaceable than what came before it, based on what we've been told about ASOIAF history.

[screamin]

Well, but that was history written by the victors. :)

[ShellsandCheese]

Drogon better survive, that’s all I got.

[domina89]

22 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Drogon better survive, that’s all I got.

That's how I feel about Ghost...

[Happy Harpy]

Both Dany and Jon already died, and the Ice and Fire dying would make for "tragic" rather than "bittersweet", imo*. Some people maintained that Jon wouldn't be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son  because it'd be "too easy" or "too cliché" or "too predictable", and I feel it's the same kind of problematic here. Same for the valonqar. I'd love it to be Arya, I'd love for Cersei to face the "little beast" but I think it's going to be Jaime or Tyrion. The latter because oh, the irony if Cersei had been right all along for once.

OTOH, I can imagine magic dying again with the NK, and it would include the dragons. It would be Dany's bittersweet ending if, later, she and Jon have a child (anvils galore in 7x06). I could see them rule Westeros, but somehow I feel they might leave for Essos instead because Book!Dany aspired to a simple life and Jon never truly wanted to be a monarch.

If there's a tragedy, it will be earlier and if the last season is a full-out war, I came to think that Winterfell might fall, rather early on. The NK will get victories, probably even bigger victories than Cersei this season, and WF is the first big place on his way South. Just when some voices start to accuse the show of not killing off main characters and not having balls anymore, bam, huge shocking twist. Moreover, they foreshadowed an influx of refugees, it could be a Sept-like slaughter. I could see Sansa, the Lady of Winterfell, fall with it as the big casualty. The last time she said, "[Winterfell] is my home, I'm safe here",  we know what happened...

If Sansa doesn't die and since ASOIAF is partly inspired from the War of the Roses; I can see  her Lancaster/York type alliance rekindled, particularly if the Targaryens are gone. Tyrion doesn't get the woman he's "smitten" with (let's see how it plays out, of course) and Sansa doesn't particularly want a husband I guess, but they got along before. They could be a good team and maybe more on the long term. I could see the Long Night mark the end of feudal Westeros, and with the only two Houses standing becoming one, it would pave the way for a constitutional monarchy. Even if the wheel is broken, I don't think that Poof! Democracy is likely considering the mentalities.

Bran stays in the Matrix, Arya goes West of Westeros (alone or with her own pack). The Starks yearned to go home and get together with the original pack, but in the end they don't have their childhood home anymore and they all go their separate ways. To me, it would be a very bittersweet ending. Not a bad one for each character, but with that paradise lost nostalgia. Arya's words already foreshadowed it imo: "We're not whom we wanted to be".

*UO: I find tragic or apocalyptic endings to be incredibly lazy, and a dick move. Creating an ending that isn't sappy while being acceptable and even satisfying is much more difficult.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[paigow]

42 minutes ago, doram said:

?????

Maybe she finds her way in Westworld. 

BTW, is Planetos a flat world or a round one?

James Marsden [Teddy] dodges a group of desperadoes by accidentally riding into Medieval World and is immediately killed by Arya.... 

[bluestocking]

Alchemy in Game of Thrones - Chemical Wedding

 

If GRRM is following alchemy in bringing Jon and Dany together as his alchemical partners, what are the chances of them not just falling in love, but marrying, having children, and surviving? 

 

I am most confident in saying I think they will fall in love and physically join (fulfilling the coniunctio stage).   Together they will reconcile the warring factions and save the world.  They will probably destroy the Iron Throne. Iron is the 2nd basest metal in the alchemical scheme of 7 metals corresponding to the 7 heavenly bodies observable by the naked eye, and it is completely out of place in the Eucatastrophe GRRM will create. 

 

But after that, who knows?

 

A lot of fantasy is written for children. The chemical partners are often siblings, even boy-girl twins.  So there is no romance. With teenagers, we sometimes get romance, even marriage. (GRRM is definitely in line with fantasy tradition in having underage couples.)  For example, Maria and Robin marry at the end of The Little White Horse, as do Meg and Calvin part way through the Wrinkle in Time series.   An exception is His Dark Materials, where Lyra and Will make love and save the universe but then have to part and live in separate worlds.  Maybe that will change in the new book due in October.

 

For adult fantasy the picture is mixed.   In Shakespeare’s romances (his late fantasy plays like the Tempest, Winter’s Tale, and Cymbeline) the alchemical couple marry and live happily ever after.  Example: Ferdinand and Miranda of the Tempest, brought together by her (alchemist) father, the magician Prospero.  Then again, Romeo and Juliet fall in love and marry, but have to both die to bring about peace and reconciliation between their warring families. 

 

What about Lord of the Rings?  Tolkien “broke” the rules by having his alchemical partners both be male.  Supposedly he had trouble writing believable female characters.  Frodo does ask Sam to move in with him at the end of Return of the King (Grey Havens chapter) but Sam marries Rose instead.  The rose is the preeminent flower symbol of the philosopher’s stone.  So Sam gets his happy ever after, with no less than 13 children, in line with the multiplication stage of alchemy.  Frodo pines away alone.  We also get a couple of Red Kings marrying their White Queens:  Aragorn and Arwyn, Faramir and Eowyn.  So perhaps there is room for cautious optimism for Jon and Dany if GRRM hews close to the LOTR ending. 

 

What I am hoping for is a sweet ending like Mozart’s alchemical opera the Magic Flute.  Tamino and Pamina are tested by walking through fire and flood together. (Yes, being burned by fire and submerged in water are standard features of alchemy stories.)  They survive unharmed and marry.   I know GRRM only promised bittersweet, but maybe that just means all three dragons need to die so Jonerys can have three children. I’m dreaming I know. Oh well. 

 

I think we may already have seen a Jon and Dany Chemical Wedding, or the beginnings of it at least.  The Chemical Wedding occurs when the Sulphur and Mercury characters come together to create the Philosopher’s Stone.

 

Sulphur is male, Sun, the Red King, fire and air, hot and dry.  Mercury (quicksilver) is female, the White Queen, earth and water, cool and moist.  GRRM has switched genders on us so Jon Snow, based on his name alone, is water, while Danerys Stormborn’s surname shows us she corresponds to wind, which equals air, not to mention her flying, fire-breathing dragons. 

 

Both have suffered years of testing—physically, as their bodies were assaulted, most notably by fire and water—as well as psychologically and morally.  They are ready to join together on a mission to save their world.  (Just count the number of times they each said “together” since they met.) 

 

Jon asks Dany at Dragonstone if she would accompany him on the mission to capture the wight.  She says no, because that would leave her forces at the mercy of Cerci; she is not yet ready to sacrifice her own interests.  So Jon sets out with his small force, which includes several men who had been enemies in the past but have set their differences aside and are now working together.  When they are trapped on the island, Jon detaches Gendry to ask Dany for help again.  This time she comes, with all three dragons, perhaps influenced by Tyrion’s suggestion that Jon is in love with her and therefore returns her feelings, which we have seen growing in the past weeks.  In any case, she trusts him enough now to believe the raven Gendry sends. 

 

At the lake Jon’s self-sacrificing is on full display, while Dany risks her own life and sacrifices Viserion. Then we have a textbook alchemical moment, where Jon is fully submerged into the lake.  (The alchemical process consists of repeated cycles of dissolution—being submerged in water—and coagulation.)  I’ve seen a few suggestions that perhaps Jon is somehow immune to cold and ice, the same way Danerys is immune to fire. That would make a lot of sense from an alchemy perspective. In any case, Jon survives his ordeals and ends up in the ship’s cabin.

 

In their brief conversation Jon and Dany give up their remaining pride and ambitions and surrender to each other, for the greater good.  Jon has seen Dany “for what you are” and is willing to submit to her as “my Queen.”  Dany agrees to put aside her personal ambitions and join with him to destroy the Night King: “We will defeat him together.”   After years of showing confidence, even arrogance about her right to the Iron Throne and the likelihood of success, she shows vulnerability, whispering “I hope I deserve it.”  Both of them have been transformed and are united in a common purpose.

 

 The symbolism isn’t perfect. Maybe we’ll get more in the final episode, but we get a lot here. 

 

--The setting is in a small, enclosed room on a ship. The ship is one of many symbols for the alchemical vessel.  (See, for example, Shakespeare’s Pericles.)

 

--He acknowledges her as Queen, so if we can just get her to acknowledge him as a King, we have the King and Queen we need for the Chemical Wedding.

 

--I looked really hard for some circular symbolism.  It may be a stretch but I think when Jon first reaches out to grab her hand, he encircles her fingers.  And when she gives him her hand at the end, she puts her fingers into the circle of his hand.  (Plus she strokes the back of his hand with her thumb, so there is your first caress.)

 

--Jon’s wounds are interesting. If Dany needed more convincing about how much Jon is willing to sacrifice for his people, she has it. I have no idea if GRRM would do this, but it would be completely in line with alchemy for Dany to use her body to cauterize and close the wounds. Similarly, if Dany comes down with a life-threatening fever in the future, you could see Jon breaking it with HIS body (ice).

[SimoneS]

On 8/13/2017 at 0:28 PM, Eyes High said:

Now, I think it's reasonable to believe that Jon and/or Dany will die--GRRM's recent comments that "fire wight" Beric foreshadows Jon's resurrection certainly were not reassuring for Jon fans--but it's also perfectly reasonable to believe that Jon and Dany will end up ruling and living happily ever after, just as Arwen did with Aragorn in LOTR, and just as Simon ("Snowlock") did with Miriamele in the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy which also inspired GRRM.

I didn't know that GRRM read and was inspired by Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. That was a hellish trilogy to get through, but I managed it. I haven't read it in years. I must pull it out and do reread when I have some time. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by SimoneS

[Oscirus]

If Dany is going to break the wheel, I can't imagine that she lives or has children. If she does either of those, she won't have broken the wheel as the kingdom will ultimately still be under the same system. Maybe Jon brings democracy to the kingdoms, but I doubt it, if anything he's too worried about other threats to have the same ambitions that Tyrion seems to have.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

If Dany is going to break the wheel, I can't imagine that she lives or has children. If she does either of those, she won't have broken the wheel as the kingdom will ultimately still be under the same system.

The evolution of a parliament serving a figurehead monarch is a different wheel that would allow her survival...Her head could be on all the coins, but she would not actively "rule" Westeros. 

[Raachel2008]

On 17/08/2017 at 1:11 AM, anamika said:

still do in the books - where the Northerners are a loyal bad-ass group of hardy bastards. But on the show, the North is more suited to Cersei's kind of ruling and Sansa is supposedly good in that, seeing as how she admires Cersei's way of getting things done.

No. Fucking. Kidding. I LOATHE what they did to the Norht on the show. LOATHE it.

 

On 21/08/2017 at 2:51 AM, Colorful Mess said:

Whomever has their hands on LF's Valyrian steel dagger is going to be the one that kills the Night King with it. There's been too many lingering shots, and it even showed up in a book at the Citadel. While there's no question Arya can handle a blade, there's something poetic about Sansa doing it - the most magical person in the series killed by the least magical one. Sansa also has a prophecy attached to her about killing a giant in a castle made of snow (Winterfell).

Not happening. Never happening. The Night King is Jon's. D&D has used precious screen time to show the KN and Jon facing each other, and the message is very clear: either Jon kills the NK or the NK destroys everything. They are the two leads of two opposing forces, god x evil, we can say.  How the KN and Jon will face each other remains to be seen, obviously it will demand a major effort from everybody involved to Jon even have a chance to come close to the NK. 

As far as Sansa goes, I think the giant in the castle made of snow can be one of the WW, maybe the NK's right hand or even the Mountain. If they are shapping Sansa to be the QOTB when it is all said and done, and I believe they are, then a feat like killing a WW will help to build the mythology around her. I just want them to show us Sansa learning how to fight - that was Jon's order, after all - so it won't come out of nowhere. I agree with whoever says that the WW will come to Winterfell, there is not other way. And I bet Sansa survives.

 

On 21/08/2017 at 8:16 AM, Eyes High said:

If Sansa gets with the Hound in the show,

If that ever happens the screams of a million fangirls whining about how unfair it that Sansa doesn't get a cute price will be heard across the Seven Kingdons and beyond. But it won't, not in the show. Someone suggested Sansa marrying Gendry, that's an interesting idea.

 

On 21/08/2017 at 7:51 PM, Eyes High said:

Arya has never wanted to be a knight in either the books or the show--in the books she asked Ned whether she could be a king's councillor, build castles, or the High Septon, and in the show version of that conversation she asked Ned whether she could be lord of a holdfast--so her claim in 7x06 that she had dreamed of being a knight came out of nowhere. I guess you could say that she did idolize Syrio, who at one time served as the First Sword of Braavos (a function somewhat analogous to the Kingsguard, as far as I can tell), but it's still a big leap from worshipping Syrio to wanting to be a knight. Wanting to be a knight is Brienne's thing, not Arya's. 

I think was another example of D&D lazy writing: Arya never wanted to be a knight, but she never wanted to be a lady and she wanted to live her life in a way very different from the one expected from high born women. All they needed was to have Arya saying: "I was jealous you could sew and embroid and do all those things. but I didn't want to be like you. What I was jealous is that you could be what you wanted to be, while I just wanted to do other things. I wanted to fight, I wanted to play, I wanted the boy's adventures. I wanted to be me. And I couldn't". Something like that. But the more we come to the end of the series and the far we go from the books, the less D&D understand or want to understand these characters. I kind of thing they only like Cersei/Lena is this why Cersei is still Cersei.

As far as the show ends, the big question for me if if Dany AND Jon lives. 

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Someone suggested Sansa marrying Gendry, that's an interesting idea.

Yes agreed. But I also wish for Bronn and Sansa. Jamie did promise him a "princess" and a castle. 

[BitterApple]

Sansa has suffered a lot. She deserves a nice piece of man candy as a consolation prize. Or at least a guy like Pod, who's a wizard at pleasing the ladies. 

[ChromaKelly]

On 8/21/2017 at 1:53 PM, Tikichick said:

Looking at last night's episode I couldn't help but be reminded of Hardhome and the particular attention the NK paid to Jon.  Given the way things have played out since then I now cannot help but wonder where Bran fits into this particular triangle, because I cannot help but feel there is one.  I've begun to wonder if the NK now has access to a tremendous amount of information by virtue of touching Bran.

Yes, I've been wondering if there's kind of a Harry/Voldemort thing going on there. A little bit of the NK is in Bran and now he has access to Bran's mind and his visions. So, does that mean Bran is a Horcrux of sorts and will have to die? I don't know, but I do think Bran is doomed.

[Eyes High]

12 hours ago, Oscirus said:

If Dany is going to break the wheel, I can't imagine that she lives or has children. If she does either of those, she won't have broken the wheel as the kingdom will ultimately still be under the same system. Maybe Jon brings democracy to the kingdoms, but I doubt it, if anything he's too worried about other threats to have the same ambitions that Tyrion seems to have.

In 7x06, it was said that Aegon the Conqueror built the wheel in the first place, so a Targ restoration of any kind wouldn't break the wheel, would it?

We don't know much about what Jon's political philosophy would be like, since he's so narrowly focused on the WW threat. Once the WW threat is dealt with, he may well be interested in some form of elective monarchy.

 

44 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Sansa has suffered a lot. She deserves a nice piece of man candy as a consolation prize.

I dunno. Everyone still standing in the show has suffered a lot by this point. Sansa's no more deserving than anyone else of a hot love interest, even assuming she would want one at this point.

The idea of Sansa/Gendry makes no sense, other than "LOL they're both hot." She's the perfect snooty highborn lady and acts like it, everything Gendry hates and resents since it reminds him of his own lowborn status. He's a bastard blacksmith, everything Sansa finds utterly beneath her. He would resent her, she would recoil from him. If she slums it with anyone, it will be Sandor.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Eyes High

[MrsR]

Arya is the one who offered to be Gendry's family. Just saying.

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

In 7x06, it was said that Aegon the Conqueror built the wheel in the first place, so a Targ restoration of any kind wouldn't break the wheel, would it?

We don't know much about what Jon's political philosophy would be like, since he's so narrowly focused on the WW threat. Once the WW threat is dealt with, he may well be interested in some form of elective monarchy.

 

I dunno. Everyone still standing in the show has suffered a lot by this point. Sansa's no more deserving than anyone else of a hot love interest, even assuming she would want one at this point.

The idea of Sansa/Gendry makes no sense, other than "LOL they're both hot." She's the perfect snooty highborn lady and acts like it, everything Gendry hates and resents since it reminds him of his own lowborn status. He's a bastard blacksmith, everything Sansa finds utterly beneath her. He would resent her, she would recoil from him. If she slums it with anyone, it will be Sandor.

I think the "breaking of the wheel" will be a natural outcome of the war for the dawn. I think the Iron Throne will be a relic of the past, and what will be left is a system that requires some kind of grand council of all the seven (former) kingdoms, or like a parliament with an elected leader. If there's a monarch, he or she will have to defer to the councilor work together with them.   

In my head canon, Gendry is legitimized by Dany or Jon or both as the last living member of the Baratheon line and someone who has proved to be brave and strong like young Robert but without his father's baggage. Storms End needs a Lord, so why not? I guess I don't see Sansa as the same snooty girl that she was when she went off to Kings Landing with her father. She's been through enough to understand that nobles can be assholes and knights and common folks can be honorable. I think a case could be made for a marriage between Sansa and the legitimized Lord of Storms End. At least he's not a cousin to her. I doubt it will happen, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibilities. 

However, Sansa may just be "over" marriage at this point, after being forced to marry Tyrion against her will and then marrying Ramsey who turned out to be a psychopath. She could remain the unwed Lady of Winterfell and/or Warden of the North, if one or both of Jon Snow and/or Daenerys dies or ends up on the Iron Throne. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

I think the "breaking of the wheel" will be a natural outcome of the war for the dawn. I think the Iron Throne will be a relic of the past, and what will be left is a system that requires some kind of grand council of all the seven (former) kingdoms, or like a parliament with an elected leader. If there's a monarch, he or she will have to defer to the councilor work together with them.   In my head canon, Gendry is legitimized by Dany or Jon or both as the last living member of the Baratheon line and someone who has proved to be brave and strong like young Robert but without his father's baggage. Storms End needs a Lord, so why not? I guess I don't see Sansa as the same snooty girl that she was when she went off to Kings Landing with her father. She's been through enough to understand that nobles can be assholes and knights and common folks can be honorable.

Sansa supposedly shedding her snootiness is far overstated by fans, in my opinion, but that's a matter for another thread.

One thing that's clear in the books--less so in the show--is that Gendry has a huge chip on his shoulder about lords and ladies. Poor Arya, who's incredibly unladylike, gets the brunt of Gendry's resentment of the fact that she's a lady and he's lowborn (he's also rude to Edric Dayne for the same reason). Someone like Sansa, with her manners and her courtesies, who's a walking, talking reminder of Gendry's low birth, would be a source of endless resentment and anger from him, legitimized or not. He'd be much more comfortable with someone closer to his own status, and indeed in the books Hyle Hunt speculates that Gendry will marry Willow Heddle, an innkeep's sister who sounds an awful lot like Arya, minus the high birth (commanding, brown-haired, and skinny). Gendry has a type, it seems, and Sansa ain't it.

 

Quote

I think a case could be made for a marriage between Sansa and the legitimized Lord of Storms End. At least he's not a cousin to her. I doubt it will happen, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibilities. 

Who would make that case? Gendry would hate Sansa, and Sansa wouldn't even acknowledge Gendry as a marital prospect. There's no there there.

 

Quote

 

However, Sansa may just be "over" marriage at this point, after being forced to marry Tyrion against her will and then marrying Ramsey who turned out to be a psychopath. She could remain the unwed Lady of Winterfell and/or Warden of the North, if one or both of Jon Snow and/or Daenerys dies or ends up on the Iron Throne. 

 

It seems like a logical conclusion for Sansa's arc that the starry-eyed young girl who wanted desperately to go south and marry a handsome prince ends up as the proudly single Lady of Winterfell with no interest in either marrying or ever leaving.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Eyes High

[gbbarb]

3 hours ago, MrsR said:

Arya is the one who offered to be Gendry's family. Just saying.

Gendry deserve better.  Just saying

[Genius]

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 PM, Wouter said:

Rickon was given to Ramsay by the Umbers, Osha died while trying to kill Ramsay and Rickon was later used as bait (for Jon) and shot at the beginning of the battle of the bastards.

Oh that's right, we were all screaming for stupid little Rickon to zig and zag as he ran toward Jon, making it harder to be an arrow's target. Duh. How could I forget?? Thank you! 

[Oscirus]

I'm sorry but I'm still ultimately getting Arya as the lady of Winterfell being her endgame. That talk at the end was foreshadowing the hell out of it.

Im feeling that we could be getting kid implications from Dany, however all three of the scenes with Dany could have other meanings:

Tyrion- Future/breaking the wheel. bringing on democracy.   Jon 1-  Foreshadowing her inability to kill her baby in the future Jon 2- Another wink, wink, you're not the last targ, Dany, wink wink.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Oscirus

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'm sorry but I'm still ultimately getting Arya as the lady of Winterfell being her endgame. That talk at the end was foreshadowing the hell out of it.

How so? Arya acknowledges Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell and indicates that she's okay with it: "I was never going to be as good a lady as you, so I had to be something else."

[Oscirus]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

How so? Arya acknowledges Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell and indicates that she's okay with it: "I was never going to be as good a lady as you, so I had to be something else."

Alot of discussion about Arya's desire to  be lady of Winterfell.  Hell even your  quote hints at it. No need to highlight it so much if it's not going  to happen.

[Eyes High]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Alot of discussion about Arya's desire to  be lady of Winterfell.  Hell even your  quote hints at it. No need to highlight it so much if it's not going  to happen.

I thought it was established in 7x07 that Arya never wanted to be Lady of Winterfell--just to make sure Sansa didn't attempt to usurp Jon--and it was all just LF's attempt to manipulate the sisters. Arya even tells Sansa that Sansa being LOW doesn't bother her, and there's no reason to believe that she was lying.

[Raachel2008]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Alot of discussion about Arya's desire to  be lady of Winterfell.  Hell even your  quote hints at it. No need to highlight it so much if it's not going  to happen.

Arya never wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, the quote is about how she couldn't be a lady like her mother or her sister, in a more traditional way. Arya would be MISERABLE as Lady of Winterfall. The daily burocratic crap and small affairs would drive her insane. 

[ParadoxLost]

31 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Arya never wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, the quote is about how she couldn't be a lady like her mother or her sister, in a more traditional way. Arya would be MISERABLE as Lady of Winterfall. The daily burocratic crap and small affairs would drive her insane. 

In my mind, it really depends on the perspective someone has for how the show will end.  Does everyone die?  Does everyone get a happy ending?  Does everyone continue down the unexpected road they were set on or have to abandon it to fulfill some duty they never particularly wanted?  Has everyone already reached their endpoint on who they will become?

I think its a possibility that Arya's end is to become the Warden of the North rather than Lady of Winterfell.  She's deviated off the path to kill everyone on her list to rejoin her family.  If she starts joining tactical planning meetings with Jon and Sansa once he returns, and expands her knowledge base beyond assassin, I'll think its almost a given she is destined to become Warden in the North.

It would start to make more sense why Bran is a bird.  But more, it adds some explanation as to why they decided that Lyanna Mormont is a ten year old who can influence the other Northern houses.  It increases the believability quotient of Arya acting as Warden in the North.  So does the Northern houses whining that they should have chosen Sansa over Jon for that matter.  Even Sansa passing the sentence on LF and Arya executing it could point in this direction.

All of this predicated on my current theory that Cersei, Jon, and Dany will all die.  But that Jon/Dany will have a baby and die in such a way that fosters so much good will that Tyrion and Sansa end up as regents until the heir to the throne comes of age.  So basically it ends with a Lannister, a Stark, and a Targ ruling Westeros but none of the expected candidates.

[bluestocking]

Now that Season 7 is done, I've been trying to figure out what stage of alchemy weve reached?  Assuming GRRM is doing the three stage Black, White, Red alchemy you most typically see in fantasy, I think we are still in the white stage.

 

An easy to see example—see John Granger’s many works—is in Harry Potter, where each stage is marked by a critical death.  Severus BLACK dies at the end of Order of the Phoenix. ALBUS (=white) Dumbledore dies at the end of Half-Blood Prince; and Dobby (buried by Harry in RED earth) dies toward the end of Deathly Hallows. 

 

Jon spent the first five seasons in the Black stage, known in Latin as the nigredo.  He “takes the black,” is known, like other member of the Night Watch, as a “crow,” and he “dies” in Castle Black.  Examples of symbolism for the nigredo, most of which we’ve seen in the series, are “the skeleton, the skull, the angel of death, Saturn with his scythe, the eclipse of sun and moon, the beheaded king or bird, the crow’s head, the severed head, and all things black—night, the crow, the raven, coal, pitch, ebony, the black man, Moor or Ethiopian.”  Another seemingly random piece of nigredo symbolism is “the chopping off of the lion’s paws”—the inspiration for Jamie Lannister (the Lannister sigil is the lion) getting his hand chopped off, perhaps.  (All quotes are from Lyndy Abraham, A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery (Cambridge University Press, 1998).

 

Jon’s vows to the Night Watch end with his “death,” so we move into the White stage, the albedo.  He becomes a King and meets his intended Queen.  Was his near-death and total submergence in the lake during the battle with the Night King the White Death?  Snow stuck in his hair and whitened it for a LONG time after he emerged, so perhaps.  Too bad we don’t have the account in the book to read. 

 

Another possibility is that the Night King will be the White Death and Cersei and her pals will be the Red Death.  It does look like Season 8 has been set up for the first war to be against the Night King, while the finale wraps things up at King’s Landing.   Let’s not even think about a white-haired Targaryen in this discussion.

 

Generally the Chemical Wedding ushers in the final, red, stage, known as the rubedo.  Since Jon and Dany’s joining only happened at the end of Season 7, we can’t be sure this is what’s going to happen.  But the final episode gives us Jon as water (SNOW) and earth (SAND) and Dany as fire and air (STORMBORN), so we have the four elements combining to create the fifth element, the Philosopher’s Stone, the red rose, and a host of other symbols. 

 

Jon started out as a wolf, which is a symbol for antimony, the material the alchemists started with in their attempts to make the philosopher’s stone.  Known as stibnite, it was actually antimony trisulphide.  Curiously, the hero of Mozart’s opera the Magic Flute is called Tamino, an anagram for Antimon, the German word for antimony.  So the Freemasonry links in GOT continue.  (Masonic rituals draw heavily on alchemical language and symbolism.  I don’t think it was pure chance that GRRM’s publisher staged an event at the Freemasonry Hall in London.)

 

Dany is a dragon, “the dual-natured Mercurius in his first dark chthonic phase…..Metaphysically, the dragon is the lower, earthly self which the soul must learn to subdue and train, so that the higher self…may at last reign.” 

 

Jon and Dany’s union should contribute crucially to their progress toward physical and spiritual transformation at the end of the series.  Maybe they’ll even have a Philosophical Child. 

[Tippi]

If Sansa and Gendry marry, it would fulfill what their fathers wanted--a son of Robert's would marry a daughter of Ned's.  I think it is a strong possibility.

I think Jon and Dany will bring the bittersweet.  I could see next season that after Jon finds out who his parents are, that he grows distant with Dany.  She will find that she is pregnant, possibly won't tell Jon due to hurt feelings at  his behavior.  Before Jon's final battle with the NK, he will find out about the baby and profess his love for Dany.  Then Jon will die after killing the NK.  Of course, with GRRM's hinting that Jon is a wight, can a wight get someone pregnant?  I had a feeling that Jon's resurrection in the books will bring him back as something other than human.  That's the kind of twist that I can see GRRM pulling.

What do the spirals/circles mean?  I can't come up with an explanation for them.

[Thinbalina]

I hope both Jon and Dany perish and I don't care who remains on the Iron Throne..I just want the Starks in WinterFell - I don't really care what happens to the others. 

[Oscirus]

15 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I thought it was established in 7x07 that Arya never wanted to be Lady of Winterfell--just to make sure Sansa didn't attempt to usurp Jon--and it was all just LF's attempt to manipulate the sisters. Arya even tells Sansa that Sansa being LOW doesn't bother her, and there's no reason to believe that she was lying.

There's plenty of hints that Sansa being better at being the lady of winterfell then her bothers Arya and Arya never says that Sansa being LOW doesn't bother her she danced around the question and used that quote that she cited earlier.

 

11 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Arya never wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, the quote is about how she couldn't be a lady like her mother or her sister, in a more traditional way. Arya would be MISERABLE as Lady of Winterfall. The daily burocratic crap and small affairs would drive her insane. 

I got the exact opposite impression. This whole seasons been about Arya doing an about face from what we were previously shown.  She's not a tomboy because she didn't want to be a lady, she became one because she felt inferior to Sansa and Catelyn. That's what I got from the quote.

[Francie]

The series finale final oh sh*t moment? It will be the revelation that Ned Stark. Lord Honorable Ned Stark. Mr. "I cannot tell a lie" Ned Stark was the one who started the rumor that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna rather than running off together.   He is directly responsible for Brandon and his father's deaths. He is directly responsible for Robert starting the rebellion.  And while he didn't mean for that happen, he inadvertently benefitted, by getting the castle and the girl.  

And Bran is going to witness it. 

[Francie]

My post season 7 predictions:

Sansa will indeed, as Tyrion opined ("outlive us all") and be a ruler of a large part of Westeros. Her marriage to a Lannister will mark the end of the Lannister/Stark feud.

Greyscale will re-surface.

Jon and Dany both die, and their story is recorded as a "Song of Ice and Fire."  Dany is actually Ice and Jon the Fire.

Jorah dies saving Lyanna Mormont or in a fit of rage after her death.

Dany gives birth to Jon's baby and, after dying, Tyrion takes the child, being the one to know the true father.

Gilly's baby, who is the WW's half-brother, plays an important role in the resolution of the WW war.

Sansa's circle necklace leads to a clue about what the WW want.

We'll see an elephant!

Jaime and Brienne will fight together, with their twin Valyrian swords.  I can't pull the trigger as to their respective final fates, except to say it's their child that starts a 1,000 year dynasty.  The child will NOT be named Lannister.

It will be revealed that Varys pulled a lot of the nasty acts that were blamed on others earlier in the season, all "for the realm" in his mind. He sent Janos Slynt after Robert's bastards. He orchestrated Shae's removal from the boat and knows she was working her only angle with Tywin to save Tyrion's life.

Ned started Robert's Rebellion. Thanks, Ned!

Bronn Blackfyre gets his castle and his princess in the end.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

The series finale final oh sh*t moment? It will be the revelation that Ned Stark. Lord Honorable Ned Stark. Mr. "I cannot tell a lie" Ned Stark was the one who started the rumor that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna rather than running off together.   He is directly responsible for Brandon and his father's deaths. He is directly responsible for Robert starting the rebellion.  And while he didn't mean for that happen, he inadvertently benefitted, by getting the castle and the girl.  

And Bran is going to witness it. 

Er, how? He was in the Vale, IIRC. How and why would he be the one to start such a rumor? And how would it spread so fast that Brandon would go posting off to KL on the strength of it when he was travelling already himself (thus not in a position to receive a raven?)

Mind, I do think Ned was kind of a dick for letting the rumor spread that he'd defeated the knight of the Dawn in combat when apparently Howland Reed stabbed him in the back to save Ned's ass. But I can't lay anything else in Robert's Rebellion at Ned's feet.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

Dany gives birth to Jon's baby and, after dying, Tyrion takes the child, being the one to know the true father.

That's only possible if Jon and Dany keep their affair secret. Jon and Dany's entourage already know that they're strongly attracted to each other, and it's not as if Dany is carrying on with multiple guys. If Dany gets knocked up, everyone in her inner circle is going to know the identity of the the father, so unless they all die in the war, everyone's going to know who the father is. Nor is Dany going to have the luxury of being pregnant in secret like Lyanna was, what with the WW war and everything.

[Francie]

54 minutes ago, screamin said:

Er, how? He was in the Vale, IIRC. How and why would he be the one to start such a rumor? And how would it spread so fast that Brandon would go posting off to KL on the strength of it when he was travelling already himself (thus not in a position to receive a raven?)

Mind, I do think Ned was kind of a dick for letting the rumor spread that he'd defeated the knight of the Dawn in combat when apparently Howland Reed stabbed him in the back to save Ned's ass. But I can't lay anything else in Robert's Rebellion at Ned's feet.

They are all at Harrenhal, so who knows how long it takes Ned to go back to the Vale.  The logistics can be worked out.  What interests me is that Mr. Honesty turns out to be the lying-est man of all. He's not Littlefinger lie here, lie there, but his are big game changing whoppers.  And I'm not saying he's doing it for malicious reasons, but they sure are consequential ones:

He lies about the paternity of Jon Black. He lets his own wife suffer for nearly two decades in thinking he was unfaithful to her.  He lies that he's Jon's father, and instead he's his uncle.

He lies, by omission, by letting everyone believe he bested Sir Arthur Dayne in single-handed combat.

And his very last words were a lie. He publicly states that he lied about Joffrey's parentage so that he could take the crown. A nobel lie, but a lie all the same. And it's that lie --the confirmation of Joffrey as rightful ruler that gives Joffrey the opening to cut off his head. Had Ned held firm, Joffrey would have been checked, because killing Ned would have been tantamount to an admission that he was correct. At least, that's how Stannis and Renly could spin it.

Why does Ned lie? Maybe he's caught off guard and says something thinking it's the best explanation, when actually it's the worst. Maybe he, yet again, lies by keeping his mouth shut and not correcting Brandon or Robert when he knows the truth -- all because he wasn't able to stand up to one or the other of them.  Again, I don't think he's malicious, like Littlefinger would have been.  But this whole show, from episode one, has been a juxtaposition of Mr. Honorable Ned Stark and Mr. Shit for Honor Jaime Lannister.  And George loves playing with the idea of history being the lie agreed upon by people.  So, I've had my eye on this for awhile now.

 

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That's only possible if Jon and Dany keep their affair secret. Jon and Dany's entourage already know that they're strongly attracted to each other, and it's not as if Dany is carrying on with multiple guys. If Dany gets knocked up, everyone in her inner circle is going to know the identity of the the father, so unless they all die in the war, everyone's going to know who the father is. Nor is Dany going to have the luxury of being pregnant in secret like Lyanna was, what with the WW war and everything.

I think you answered your own question.  We have two months or so before a pregnancy becomes even known. A lot of people can die between now that then.  There is a war happening.  And, remember, Rhaegar's closest kingsguard knew the truth as well.

[SeanC]

Also, wouldn't it be extremely dickish to lie to Jon's family about his having a kid?  I'm pretty sure Arya and Sansa would want the kid before Tyrion, who has no connection to it.

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

They are all at Harrenhal, so who knows how long it takes Ned to go back to the Vale. 

Ned was not anywhere near Lyanna or Brandon when the "abduction" occurred, nor did he see him afterward.  He knew nothing about Lyanna's running off with Rhaegar until he actually met Lyanna.

[Eyes High]

47 minutes ago, Francie said:

I think you answered your own question.  We have two months or so before a pregnancy becomes even known. A lot of people can die between now that then.  There is a war happening.  And, remember, Rhaegar's closest kingsguard knew the truth as well.

As I said, Lyanna only managed to keep her pregnancy secret because she was shut up in the TOJ for her pregnancy. Dany's a queen who's going to be on the front lines of a war. She's not getting shut up anywhere.

 

42 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Also, wouldn't it be extremely dickish to lie to Jon's family about his having a kid?  I'm pretty sure Arya and Sansa would want the kid before Tyrion, who has no connection to it.

Not to mention that Tyrion wouldn't know what to do with a kid, much less an infant. I guess if Tyrion remarried Sansa, that would solve that particular problem, but how likely is that?

Edited August 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[Francie]

I take back nothing from my earlier predictions today, and I add this on top of it.  

These are the seven "gods" who fight the WW and are immortalized. This passage is from Clash of Kings, where Melisandre is burning the statues of the seven gods on Dragonstone: 

Quote

The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms withered as if to embrace him. The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword was thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame. The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall. Davos watched the hand of the Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away, one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal. The head fell off the smith with a puff of ash and embers.

The Maiden and the Warrior will be Brienne and Jaime.  "The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms withered as if to embrace him" means that Jaime gets to die as he wanted, in the arms of the woman he loves. 

As to "the father was on the bottom, first to fall," Jon has already died. The mother is Nissa Nissa, with a longsword thrust through her heart. She will be Daenerys (Nissa Nissa is a telephoned game version of Mysa, Mhysa). 

We have a smith, Gendry, though the smith could be any journeyman. I like the obvious answer on this one. 

Arya is the Stranger. 

Which leaves the mysterious crone.  She is not mentioned in that paragraph, though her statue is mentioned in the opening of the chapter:  "They were all afire now, Maid and Mother, Warrior and Smith, the Crone with her pearl eyes and the Father with his gilded beard; even the Stranger, carved to look more animal than human."  

Edited to add: melisandre is the crone. Beautifully ironic. She rails against the "false" seven gods, and here she is, one of them. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Francie

[Eyes High]

23 minutes ago, Francie said:

The Maiden and the Warrior will be Brienne and Jaime.  "The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms withered as if to embrace him" means that Jaime gets to die as he wanted, in the arms of the woman he loves. 

I think you can take the prediction of Jaime dying in Brienne's arms to the bank.

A number of fans over the years have speculated that Brienne will get knocked up with Jaime's bastard, but with one pregnancy in the mix (Cersei's), and another likely pregnancy on the way (Dany's), how likely is that?

As for the possibility of Tyrion raising Jon and Dany's child, now that I think about it, he was banging on in 7x07 about how much he loved "the children." Still seems like a long shot.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

9 hours ago, Francie said:

The series finale final oh sh*t moment? It will be the revelation that Ned Stark. Lord Honorable Ned Stark. Mr. "I cannot tell a lie" Ned Stark was the one who started the rumor that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna rather than running off together.   He is directly responsible for Brandon and his father's deaths. He is directly responsible for Robert starting the rebellion.  And while he didn't mean for that happen, he inadvertently benefitted, by getting the castle and the girl.  

And Bran is going to witness it. 

If any of the Starks told a lie (with the best intentions, such as protecting Lyanna's reputation) then it is far more likely to be Benjen, who took the black after the war was over.

It is also worth noting that the war only started after Aerys demanded Neds' and Roberts' head - not after the supposed abduction and not even directly after Brandon and Rickard's death at the hand of Aerys.

[Wouter]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Not to mention that Tyrion wouldn't know what to do with a kid, much less an infant. I guess if Tyrion remarried Sansa, that would solve that particular problem, but how likely is that?

Well, I've always considered that a possibility ;)  This season still leaves the possibility open (the cordial relations between Tyrion on the one hand, and Jon and to a lesser extent Sansa herself on the other hand, don't hurt) and I consider the question of Tyrion's parentage open still.

As for Gendry, remember that show-Gendry is an amalgam of book-Gendy and book-Edric Stone. Edric could be potential marriage material, allthough he is not a major character by any means.

Interestingly, Jon called out Dany on Mirri's prophetic words about her being barren. Not sure yet whether we do get the double miracle (a woman who supposedly is barren getting pregnant from a man whose body shouldn't be functioning in a normal way) or if Dany's melancholy is an apt feeling. She didn't really give an indication if she has good reason to believe Mirri, or not.

What did struck me is that Dany said the dragons should be allowed to roam free. But it's hard to imagine them roaming free (and presumably taking livestock and occasionally killing farmers and even children) for long in a post-war Westeros. Which may point to the dragons dying in the war (or maybe being poisoned right after - the final betrayal?) or to Dany (and/or Jon) deciding to stay with the survivor(s), possibly in a more nomadic lifestyle, maybe remaining a constant menace for rulers who do things she doesn't like (such as slave trade).

[revbfc]

On 8/25/2017 at 7:18 PM, GraceK said:

I would love to see Arya be the one to kill Cersei.

It'd be easy if she kills Jaime and steals his face.

[SimoneS]

Could Cersei survive this? I have always considered her dead woman walking.

[HunterHunted]

On 8/27/2017 at 1:37 AM, Oscirus said:

If Dany is going to break the wheel, I can't imagine that she lives or has children. If she does either of those, she won't have broken the wheel as the kingdom will ultimately still be under the same system. Maybe Jon brings democracy to the kingdoms, but I doubt it, if anything he's too worried about other threats to have the same ambitions that Tyrion seems to have.

On 8/27/2017 at 7:47 AM, paigow said:

The evolution of a parliament serving a figurehead monarch is a different wheel that would allow her survival...Her head could be on all the coins, but she would not actively "rule" Westeros. 

 

I think it would be interesting if Cersei's rule collapses because one million people saw dragons flying over King's Landing and numerous Queen's Guard and Lannister soldiers saw a skeleton try to kill people, heard Cersei promise to help fight against the army of the dead, and realized that Cersei had completely reneged on her promise to send soldiers to the north. Coupled with her destruction of the Great Sept, the people finally realize that the nobility doesn't give two shits about them. So by the time Jon and Daenerys got back to Kings Landing, there is a quasi-democracy or a parliamentary system in the southern part of Westeros. The Kingsmoot, election of the Lord Commander, and the Sparrows serving as examples.

There are so few nobles of the great houses left alive that you'd be hard pressed to think that you could just stroll into the Red Keep and it will be business as usual. There's not a legitimate Martell or Baratheon alive. There isn't a Tyrell alive. Sam and Sam Jr. are the only Tarlys alive, but I don't get the sense that Sam wants to be a lord. Robin Arryn and the lords of the Vale are still alive. Presumably Greyworm freed Edmure Tully when they took Casterly Rock. Yara and Euron are alive, but at opposite ends of the conflict. The same with Tyrion and Jaime. Arya killed every male Frey. There is Sansa and Arya in the north. There's not a super deep bench in anywhere except for the Vale. Plus there is question of how to integrate the Wildlings, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, and any freed slaves into Westeros. The irony of all of this is that this started as a war for the Iron Throne, but there is a decent likelihood there isn't going to be a monarchical system at the end of this.

[herbz]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Could Cersei survive this? I have always considered her dead woman walking.

I'd be astonished. I don't even think she gets out of TWOW if it ever comes out- I think she falls when (f)Aegon swoops in. And that pesky prophecy pretty much seals the deal IMO. 

It would be pretty fun though if we spent 8 years cheering for her comeuppance only for her to smugly walk through the ashes of her enemies in the final scene :D 

[SimoneS]

2 minutes ago, herbz said:

I'd be astonished. I don't even think she gets out of TWOW if it ever comes out- I think she falls when (f)Aegon swoops in. And that pesky prophecy pretty much seals the deal IMO. 

It would be pretty fun though if we spent 8 years cheering for her comeuppance only for her to smugly walk through the ashes of her enemies in the final scene :D 

I don't see her winning, but I can see farfetched scenario where Jon and Dany spare for Tyrion's sake and have her locked up in a nunnery far away.

[herbz]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I don't see her winning, but I can see farfetched scenario where Jon and Dany spare for Tyrion's sake and have her locked up in a nunnery far away.

Perhaps? I think politically Cersei would be considered too dangerous to live, but maybe if Jaime, having fought alongside them in the North, begged. I'd see her poisoning herself before being locked away like that tbh. 

[SimoneS]

6 minutes ago, herbz said:

Perhaps? I think politically Cersei would be considered too dangerous to live, but maybe if Jaime, having fought alongside them in the North, begged. I'd see her poisoning herself before being locked away like that tbh. 

Yes, I think that death does seem like Cersei's fate.

[anamika]

On 8/24/2017 at 8:51 PM, SeanC said:

Even if Sansa and Arya end the books/TV show single, they will be, what, 15/13 in the books at most, and some nebulous point in their late teens in the show.  Absent a flashforward that shows them not marrying I don't think there's any reason to think they mightn't do so later.  Particularly since Rickon is still a child in the books, so he wouldn't be married at the end of the regular narrative anyway.

But Rickon is not supposed to be a major character like Bran, Jon, Arya and Sansa. And he's like 4 or 5 years old at the beginning of all this. No one expects him to get married before the tale ends. He's not a POV character and if he has relevance than that would be as the male Stark who can marry from other influential houses and carry on Ned Stark's line. Just his presence alone indicates that in the future, he would marry some daughter of another kingdom to create alliances and continue the Stark line. That's the point of the character.

On the other hand, with major characters like Sansa and Arya things like romance and marriage have been embedded into their story from the beginning. Sansa starts the story engaged at 11. Hell, most of her story over 5 books is about her romances and all the people who love her. Ned mentioned that Arya would marry a king, Catelyn arranged a Frey marriage for her and Arya/Gendry had some hints of childish romance.

If Arya is going to leave Westeros to go on adventures, why would we expect to see her married and settled down with children sometime in the future?

If Sansa ends the story single at Winterfell because of her experiences with Joffrey, Tyrion, LF, Hound and Harry the Heir, why should we be certain that she would marry some 5th son of some lower house down the line?

Maybe GRRM does kill off Rickon, have Arya go away, Bran stuck as a tree, Sansa single and leave it open ended as to whether she will marry some poor sod in the future to continue the Stark lineage - I don't think GRRM is going to do flash forwards.

And then couple that with either Jon or Dany dying Or both of them dying and leaving behind an orphan child.

Jon's comments about KL and the million people cramped in there last episode makes me think that he's not going to be too happy if he does end up in KL as King.

What's the sweet part here?

On 8/24/2017 at 10:11 PM, SimoneS said:

If she marries, I could see Sansa marrying a legitimized Gendry. 

Not happening. Even the actors would be shocked by that considering Joe Dempsie is walking around talking up the Arya-Gendry relationship in all the interviews he's given since Gendry's return. I don't think the show will go that far into fanfiction territory.

So, regarding this:

Quote

He apparently shared with them what they described as “three holy shit moments”, which were, as per Entertainment Weekly:

'The first: Stannis Baratheon sacrificing his daughter Shireen – which was shown during the show’s fifth season.

The second: Hodor’s mind-bending origin story, which was revealed in Sunday’s hour. Martin has known the true meaning behind Hodor’s name since introducing the character in the first novel of the saga, A Game of Thrones.

'The third: “… is from the very end…,” Benioff teased.'

What could possibly be the third moment from the very end?

Edited August 31, 2017 by anamika

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Not happening. Even the actors would be shocked by that considering Joe Dempsie is walking around talking up the Arya-Gendry relationship in all the interviews he's given since Gendry's return. I don't think the show will go that far into fanfiction territory.

Fair enough, but didn't GRRM say that Arya and Gendry have separate futures? None of these characters have to marry to have happy endings.

Edited August 31, 2017 by SimoneS