Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Midi-Chlorians bring the Force down from a mystical/religious experience to a biological/genetic one.  Presumably one of the rooms in a Jedi temple was the "whack-off chamber" to collect Jedi sperm and breed the next generation since they weren't allowed to fuck. 

Even without them Force sensitivity in the OT had a genetic-and therefore biological component. In the first movie Luke was strong with the Force because his father was a Jedi. Then when they find out Leia is her sister, she has that power too.

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

And it inevitably lead to General Grievous and that absurd six-bladed thing he had.

That wasn't six bladed. He had four harms holding one lightsaber.

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

No, but we're certainly free to disagree on the interpretations of what did  happen.  I believe that a strong connection between Rey and Kylo formed, but I believe the ultimate nature of that connection had yet to be determined, that it wasn't automatically once of lovers or siblings or what-have-you.  I think there was a kind of love or at least desire on both their parts, but not, or  not yet a romantic one.  Rey saw Kylo as someone so deceived and manipulated by Snoke that he killed his own father and she hoped to lead him out of that terrible darkness and by the by also gain the Resistance a potent ally against Snoke and the First Order. 

Kylo saw Rey as someone who at last wouldn't have a list of expectations for him to meet.  It probably sucked for him just a little bit growing up.  His parents were General Han Solo and Princess/Senator Leia Organa.  They likely expected him to play a vital role in The New Republic.  Luke Skywalker was his uncle.  After he saw how strong in the force Kylo was, Luke expected him to be a good version of Anakin, a way to help make up for Palpatine and Darth Vader.  Snoke expected him to be the champion of the Dark Side, the weapon that would slay Luke Skywalker and destroy the New Republic and the Resistance once of for all.  Rey is a girl from nothing and nowhere who had shitty parents who abandoned her and sold her into slavery.  She has no grand, galaxy-spanning plans for Kylo.  As far as he's concerned, for her all he has to do is exist.

While romance could potentially have eventually occurred between Rey and Kylo it wasn't there right then.  And won't be there now since each of them has made the choice about where they stand.  Their strong connection will be that of enemies.

They're enemies but now it's more complicated emotionally than it was at the end of The Force Awakens where all she felt for him was anger and hatred and killing him would be out of revenge.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Even without them Force sensitivity in the OT had a genetic-and therefore biological component. In the first movie Luke was strong with the Force because his father was a Jedi. Then when they find out Leia is her sister, she has that power too.

Well, maybe, but it wasn't necessarily spelled out.  It could be that some families are just "blessed" with the Force without their being a truly biological component.  The midi-chlorians removed all doubt about that.  "Yes, the tiny bugs in your blood give you Force powers.  They're also why you have a nipple growing out of one of your butt-cheeks."

 

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

That wasn't six bladed. He had four harms holding one lightsaber.

I'd blotted out a lot of stuff from those movies.  That's simultaneously more sensible and sillier than the six-bladed thing.

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

They're enemies but now it's more complicated emotionally than it was at the end of The Force Awakens where all she felt for him was anger and hatred and killing him would be out of revenge.

That's all to the good for me.  More conflict is more story.  More story is good.

Edited December 26, 2017 by johntfs

[Morrigan2575]

If you have 1.5 hours to kill (long but, worth it, IMO) and you don't hate Kevin Smith this is a very detailed  review/recap of TLJ. I swear he made me cry more than the movie, I actually now want to do a rewatch to see if I could feel the way he did about this movie.

I think it's a fair recap, he talks about all the highs and lows and gets into some nitpicks or what he would have done differently.  I actually tend to agree with a lot of his comments.

 

One thing he points out at the end and, I totally didn't get this. He mentions the ending with the kid and suggests that it's a setup for Rian's trilogy and that this boy will be the new hero who's journey we follow.

I honestly thought it was just a setup for a massive time jump from VIII to IX but, it could be the next trilogy.

Cross posting in Star Wars Saga thread.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Perfect Xero]

On 12/24/2017 at 9:29 PM, JessePinkman said:

I don’t have much to say about the themes or intentions behind this movie. I just know I left TFA feeling really good and I left this feeling like...I’d watched a movie. I wasn’t upset but I felt manipulated somehow? I can’t explain. It just felt largely inauthentic. Which is sad because I loved TFA so much, particularly the Rey/Finn relationship (romantic, platonic, I don’t care). They were the heart of the last movie and had exactly one scene together in this one and that disappointed me.

I left the theater after TFA excited about where they might go what the characters might do and where their stories would take them, it really captured my imagination in a way which few movies have in recent years.

I left the theater after TLJ feeling very aware that this was something that had been written/directed to mess with expectations and tropes rather than it feeling organic or 'real'.

[VCRTracking]

For me it felt it didn't feel like a Star Wars movie or any recent commercial movie. It felt like like I had finished a book. A very good book with lots of themes, ideas, storylines, digressions, a complex narrative, characters being tested and twists. I liked it and still felt satisfied but knew how very different it was than what came before.

Edited December 28, 2017 by VCRTracking

[CofCinci]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If you have 1.5 hours to kill (long bit, worth it, IMO) and you don't hate Kevin Smith this is a very detailed  review/recap of TLJ. I swear he made me more than the movie, I actually now want to do a rewatch to see if I could feel the way he did about this movie.

I think it's a fair recap, he talks about all the highs and lows and gets into some nitpick or what he would have done differently.  I actually tend to agree with a lot of his comments.

 

 

One thing he points out at the end and I totally didn't get this. He mentions the ending with the kid and suggests that it's a setup for Rion's trilogy and that this boy will be the new hero who's journey we follow.

I honestly thought it was just a setup for a massive time jump from VIII to IX but, it could be the next trilogy.

Cross posting in Star Wars Saga thread.

I really enjoyed Kevin Smith’s review, especially when he highlights the various “Fuck you, J.J.” moments.

[cpcathy]

I liked how Kevin kept calling it "The Star War."

[ChelseaNH]

On 12/22/2017 at 2:55 AM, Zuleikha said:

Luke was Darth Vader's son, and Luke had grown up with the legend of his heroic father. There was a lot more history and logical emotional connection between those characters.

Kylo meant nothing to Rey. He was just some jerk who tried to torture her, whose mind told her he was most afraid of not being a strong serial killer, and who had just murdered his father.

Did Luke really grow up like that?  As I recall, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru didn't tell him anything about the Jedi, so as far as Luke knew, his father was just a pilot?  soldier?  Did they even say?

Meanwhile, Kylo is one of two people who can teach Rey about the Force.  For someone who feels so alone in the world, having someone who kind of understands what you're dealing with is a huge deal.  And I think Kylo feels immensely alone as well, so there's that connection point.  If Kylo can be turned, then Rey won't have to kill him and she won't be so alone.

[cpcathy]

Saw it on Sunday, and honestly could have done without a bunch of stuff, including bizarre creatures (except for the foxes!), and EVERYTHING on the casino planet, though I get the point they were making. Also could have done without Rose. Sorry 'bout it, Rose.

I think the next film needs to focus on Rey and Kylo. A) they had mad chemistry. B) Fight scene was BITCHIN! C) was totally expecting a "I love you." "I know" moment. I think I am the only one who sensed anything romantic and think it should go somewhere.  That may be an unpopular opinion.

[VCRTracking]

I mean if I was a JJ I would have one of the main plots of Episode IX hinge on a plan that Poe has devised because now it'll actually be suspenseful! The audience'll think "Oh shit, is this going to go wrong like the last movie?"

[Ms Blue Jay]

Finn needs to have a bigger role in the next movie.  Don't the fans love Finn and Rey?  I absolutely loved TFA so this was a disappointment after.  Although I preferred it over Rogue One which didn't do much for me at all.  

[JessePinkman]

1 hour ago, cpcathy said:

I think the next film needs to focus on Rey and Kylo. A) they had mad chemistry. B) Fight scene was BITCHIN! C) was totally expecting a "I love you." "I know" moment. I think I am the only one who sensed anything romantic and think it should go somewhere.  That may be an unpopular opinion.

I get that it's fiction and none of this matters but I just don't understand this...he's killed so. many. people. And Rey is pureness and light. Why would she ever? It would ruin her character for me.

Kylo isn't just a bad boy, he's psychotic. He's not his dad is what I'm saying, he's unwell and a serial killer!

Edited December 26, 2017 by JessePinkman

[VCRTracking]

16 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

1 hour ago, cpcathy said:

I think the next film needs to focus on Rey and Kylo. A) they had mad chemistry. B) Fight scene was BITCHIN! C) was totally expecting a "I love you." "I know" moment. I think I am the only one who sensed anything romantic and think it should go somewhere.  That may be an unpopular opinion.

I get that it's fiction and none of this matters but I just don't understand this...he's killed so. many. people. And Rey is pureness and light. Why would she ever? It would ruin her character for me.

Kylo isn't just a bad boy, he's psychotic. He's not his dad is what I'm saying, he's unwell and a serial killer!

I'm okay with an "I hate everybody but you." from Kylo to Rey.

[starri]

2 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

As I recall, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru didn't tell him anything about the Jedi, so as far as Luke knew, his father was just a pilot?  soldier?  Did they even say?

"He was a navigator on a spice freighter."

Granted, given that spice in the SWU is a drug, I'm not sure why Owen would say that.  I mean, couldn't he just have told Luke some lie that didn't include Anakin being a criminal?

[Joe]

16 minutes ago, starri said:

"He was a navigator on a spice freighter."

Granted, given that spice in the SWU is a drug, I'm not sure why Owen would say that.  I mean, couldn't he just have told Luke some lie that didn't include Anakin being a criminal?

There are different types of spice. Some are illegal drugs, some are medications.

[Oreo2234]

Quote

I get that it's fiction and none of this matters but I just don't understand this...he's killed so. many. people. And Rey is pureness and light. Why would she ever? It would ruin her character for me.

Kylo isn't just a bad boy, he's psychotic. He's not his dad is what I'm saying, he's unwell and a serial killer!

Yeah I agree. Adam Driver is a charismatic actor but Kylo has done a lot of terrible stuff and I think romanticising the Kylo/Rey relationship would be the wrong direction to take things in, even if he were redeemed in the next movie. I liked the moment where she shuts the space ship door on him near the end,because though she saw the human side to him, he is still an unrepentant villain and Rey needs to reject that. 

[Perfect Xero]

15 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

For me it felt it didn't feel like a Star Wars movie or any recent commercial movie. It felt like like I had finished a book. A very good book with lots of themes, ideas, storylines, digressions, a complex narrative, characters being tested and twists. I liked it and still felt satisfied but how knew this was very different it was.

That's kind of what I was trying to say. My 'problem' (if it can be called that) though is that it's a good work of art while TFA feels more like a good story.

I also think that the first half of the movie felt so much like a story that I'd expect to see in a Rey/Kylo fanfic that it sort of took my head out of the movie.

[Zuleikha]

Quote

I think the next film needs to focus on Rey and Kylo. A) they had mad chemistry. B) Fight scene was BITCHIN! C) was totally expecting a "I love you." "I know" moment. I think I am the only one who sensed anything romantic and think it should go somewhere.  That may be an unpopular opinion.

Have you not found the world of Reylo shippers? I think this SHOULD be an unpopular opinion, but you have a lot of company. 

I am not in that company, though. This film already focused on Rey/Kylo, and IMHO, failed to do anything that meaningfully advanced their stories from where they were at the end of The Force Awakens. Also,  from everything we know about him, Kylo Ren is a sociopath. We have had characters who are overly emotionally invested in him believe there's still good in him, but we have never been shown signs of this supposed good. He has no good. If we're never getting any kind of back story on Snoke, then we're left with Kylo simply chose to turn his back on everything his family worked for and embrace mass murder. He started with the mass murder of children/teens. He embraces torture. He killed his own father. He doesn't even seem to believe in any overriding principles, the way Hux is clearly a true believer in the First Order's fascism. 

 

ETA:

For someone who feels so alone in the world, having someone who kind of understands what you're dealing with is a huge deal.  And I think Kylo feels immensely alone as well, so there's that connection point.  If Kylo can be turned, then Rey won't have to kill him and she won't be so alone.

I don't think Rey felt alone in the world at the end of the Force Awakens. Sure, she starts the movie alone. But by the end of TFA, she has Finn, BB-8, Chewbacca, an implied comfort/connection with Leia, and  a place in the Resistance. Luke is surly and their relationship is disappointing, but he IS teaching her. She's not really questioning her role in the story--she's the only one who can wield the Force and she's the one Anakin's lightsaber came to when called. 

On top of that, I don't think Kylo demonstrated that he understands what she's dealing with at all. She's seen into his mind and been disgusted by it in TFA. Nothing in The Last Jedi really changed that. Kylo Ren also wields the Force, but he'd been recruited and trained by two powerful, trained Force users. His experience was totally different than hers. Also, he had chosen to use the Dark Side whereas Rey was committed to the Light Side. He also was raised in a privileged, probably loving home that couldn't be more different from Rey's life on Jakku. Finn, Luke, and even in a way Leia have more in common with Rey than Kylo does. Their connection was all Drivers' and Ridley's (really great) acting.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Zuleikha

[VCRTracking]

Some may see this as Disney stepping in but for me I think he felt compelled to say something after haters usde his statement to further attacks against Rian Johnson.

People have ignored what Mark also said:

Edited December 27, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Ravenya003]

On 27/12/2017 at 9:48 AM, JessePinkman said:

I get that it's fiction and none of this matters but I just don't understand this...he's killed so. many. people. And Rey is pureness and light. Why would she ever? It would ruin her character for me.

Kylo isn't just a bad boy, he's psychotic. He's not his dad is what I'm saying, he's unwell and a serial killer!

I'm usually pretty chill when it comes to other people's shipping choices (like you say, it's just fiction) but in this case I really struggle to understand why people want to inflict a thirty-year old mass-murderer on a teenage girl. 

And Rian Johnson mercilessly ripped that idea to shreds in this movie. Throughout all the film's publicity and in the early Rey/Kylo interactions, he was building up a picture of the two of them bonding with each other, of Kylo being misunderstood and ready for redemption, of Rey being a Pure Innocent Light and the Only One who could possibly tame the beast - Rian leaned heavily into all that Mills & Boon crap that insists a woman can successfully save a man from himself with the Power of Love, all so he could make Rey learn the hard way that when free of his abuser, when given the choice, when he's finally his own man, Kylo still chooses power and control.

(That at least was my reading on the whole thing: that it was a deliberate subversion of the audience's redemptive expectations for Kylo, just like Poe's mutiny against a purple-haired, somewhat abrasive female officer was subversive in that Poe was completely wrong the whole time despite audiences being encouraged to take his side. Cos he's the hero and that's how things roll in the Star Wars universe!)

To be honest, I'm still struggling with the fact that Rey's growth in this film wasn't anything to do with becoming a Jedi or increasing her powers, but which instead was built around her getting over her "bad boy phase." Sure, it was a bit more nuanced than that, and I'm trying to warm to the possibility that it was instead to do with overcoming her arrogance in a) believing she could change another human being, and b) assuming she knew better than Luke Skywalker on the subject of his own nephew (which is a more gender-neutral reading of events), but if I was feeling exceptionally uncharitable, there's an unpleasant subtext of: "hah hah, teenage girls are so susceptible to the bad boys, let's show them how dumb and stupid they are" in the film. It's really not a character arc I wanted for a Star Wars heroine.

(And like others have already said, Kylo isn't a "bad boy." Han Solo was a bad boy. Kylo Ren is a psycho who keeps the ashes of his victims in a shrine in his bedroom).

On 27/12/2017 at 1:52 PM, Zuleikha said:

This film already focused on Rey/Kylo, and IMHO, failed to do anything that meaningfully advanced their stories from where they were at the end of The Force Awakens. Also,  from everything we know about him, Kylo Ren is a sociopath. We have had characters who are overly emotionally invested in him believe there's still good in him, but we have never been shown signs of this supposed good. He has no good. If we're never getting any kind of back story on Snoke, then we're left with Kylo simply chose to turn his back on everything his family worked for and embrace mass murder. He started with the mass murder of children/teens. He embraces torture. He killed his own father. He doesn't even seem to believe in any overriding principles, the way Hux is clearly a true believer in the First Order's fascism. 

It's up to J.J. Abrams, but I'm pretty sure this film (and therefore the entire trilogy) has committed to Kylo's villainy. Anyone who cared about him on a personal level is now gone, and Rey symbolically and literally slammed a door in his face. Any attempt to once AGAIN float the possibility of his redemption will feel hopelessly repetitive, especially now that he'll be the Big Bad of the last movie (seriously, how many more second chances can they possibly GIVE this guy??) I never had any moral objection to a redemption arc for Kylo, but personally I think that "sometimes you can't change a person and you're not responsible for their choices" is just as important a message as "anyone can be redeemed at any time, regardless of how much suffering they've inflicted on others."

Rey has been separated from Finn for an entire movie, only JUST met Poe, and STILL hasn't interacted with Rose. I'm INFINITELY more interested in her dynamic with those characters than any more with Kylo.

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Ravenya003

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, doram said:

.. I also don't think he planned on being a lightning rod and I know Disney didn't like that one little bit.

 

None of this means he's taken back his opinion about 'Jake Skywalker' - he just regrets not keeping his opinion to himself and whatever blowback resulted from his statement.

It's quite the contrast between Hamill and Ford.  With Ford you got the impression he didn't give a damn about what they did with Han as long as he got paid well and the character died in episode VII.  Hence no complaints about how Han was a failed husband(?) and father who turned his back on the Republic/Resistance and reverted back to being a smuggler.  It may also help that Ford isn't a fan of interviews so he's more likely to stick to some bland talking points and not volunteer any extra information.

Hamill, on the other hand, cares a great deal about Luke so I can see how he'd be upset about him being a complete failure and letting millions of others die because of his mistake while he mopes in a corner and refuses to do a damn thing to help.  He also enjoys engaging with the fans and media and isn't going to spin some BS, hence his blunt honesty.  Unfortunately for him everyone who disliked the movie is focusing on just the negative part of his statements. 

[benteen]

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 1:42 PM, VCRTracking said:

Luke also went nuts and tried to murder Vader when he threatened to turn Leia to the dark side. When he feels the people he loves are threatened he acts on impulse.

In TFA JJ told a story about Rey AND Finn.  Johnson was telling Rey's story but also Kylo's, Luke's, Finn's and Poe's. If it had been only Rey's story I don't see how Finn would've been anything but supporting and Poe would've shoehorned in it. Johnson probably is a godsend to Reylos because Abrams wouldn't have been great at bringing them to the point they reached in TLJ. Sydney and Sark on ALIAS never went beyond flirting on his part as I recall. She was either mourning Daniel, UST with Vauhnn and friendzoning Will.

As I posted it seems Lucas had the idea first of Luke living in isolation and in a dark place after 30 years when a girl comes to learn the Jedi ways from him. Disney and Kathleen Kennedy made the decision to push that story back to Episode VIII and introduce the female protagonist in Episode VII and go on a fun adventure with Han Solo first before getting into any heavy Jedi mystical stuff with a depressed Luke. If it was for more commercial reasons it worked.

Not reuniting the big three is another thing I blame JJ for, along with establishing the mystery of Rey's parents and not answering it.

[Perfect Xero]

7 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

To be honest, I'm still struggling with the fact that Rey's growth in this film wasn't anything to do with becoming a Jedi or increasing her powers, but which instead was built around her getting over her "bad boy phase." Sure, it was a bit more nuanced than that, and I'm trying to warm to the possibility that it was instead to do with overcoming her arrogance in a) believing she could change another human being, and b) assuming she knew better than Luke Skywalker on the subject of his own nephew (which is a more gender-neutral reading of events), but if I was feeling exceptionally uncharitable, there's an unpleasant subtext of: "hah hah, teenage girls are so susceptible to the bad boys, let's show them how dumb and stupid they are" in the film. It's really not a character arc I wanted for a Star Wars heroine.

This. The bigger issue  for me was that I never felt like TFA was setting Rey up as a girl who needed to get over her 'bad boy phase' or someone who was going to try to play Belle to save Ben's Beast. Any chance at all of Rey having an interest in Kylo Ren/Ben had been effectively killed to me when Ben murdered Han right in front of her and then almost murdered Finn as well.

[DrSpaceman73]

I enjoyed the movie but it dragged quite a bit in the middle. 

And the Leia flying through space scene was just ridiculously stupid. 

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's quite the contrast between Hamill and Ford.  With Ford you got the impression he didn't give a damn about what they did with Han as long as he got paid well and the character died in episode VII.  Hence no complaints about how Han was a failed husband(?) and father who turned his back on the Republic/Resistance and reverted back to being a smuggler.  It may also help that Ford isn't a fan of interviews so he's more likely to stick to some bland talking points and not volunteer any extra information.

Hamill, on the other hand, cares a great deal about Luke so I can see how he'd be upset about him being a complete failure and letting millions of others die because of his mistake while he mopes in a corner and refuses to do a damn thing to help.  He also enjoys engaging with the fans and media and isn't going to spin some BS, hence his blunt honesty.  Unfortunately for him everyone who disliked the movie is focusing on just the negative part of his statements. 

 

Mark Hamill also basically is known for this movie and just a few other things, so I can see how he would have more invested in this character than Ford.  Harrison Ford has been in a bunch of blockbusters, including another huge franchise with Raiders, so he does not have to worry as much about Han. 

I don't really understand why Luke had to die in this movie myself, other than the fact they want to get rid of the old characters for the new, in my opinion, less interesting ones.  Even so, you'd think you could keep them around just in case. 

They can always appear as ghosts though like Yoda, I suppose. 

[VCRTracking]

8 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

To be honest, I'm still struggling with the fact that Rey's growth in this film wasn't anything to do with becoming a Jedi or increasing her powers, but which instead was built around her getting over her "bad boy phase."

I'd be mad about that too if I hadn't seen she was far more powerful in the Force and good a fighter in the previous movie. Like I was wondering what Luke could possibly teach her since she was more advance than he was when he first went to Yoda. If they had gone with Lucas' original outline Rey(or Kira as she was called) in the first sequel movie would be a true neophyte and have to learn from Luke who had isolated himself who would also get his mojo back. Then in the next one she would be a Jedi and there wouldn't be any "Mary Sue" talk. 

8 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Sure, it was a bit more nuanced than that, and I'm trying to warm to the possibility that it was instead to do with overcoming her arrogance in a) believing she could change another human being, and b) assuming she knew better than Luke Skywalker on the subject of his own nephew (which is a more gender-neutral reading of events), but if I was feeling exceptionally uncharitable, there's an unpleasant subtext of: "hah hah, teenage girls are so susceptible to the bad boys, let's show them how dumb and stupid they are" in the film. It's really not a character arc I wanted for a Star Wars heroine.

I would say it was arrogance coming from never failing(which is also something Poe had to deal with in the movie), naivete. The "bad boy" fixation in the other female characters That has been shown Padme in the prequels and Leia in the OT. Both turning out not to be that great for them in the long run and something Rey did have to overcome.

8 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Rey has been separated from Finn for an entire movie, only JUST met Poe, and STILL hasn't interacted with Rose. I'm INFINITELY more interested in her dynamic with those characters than any more with Kylo.

This is where I'm glad JJ Abrams is coming back because he is good at fun ensemble teamwork with his Star Trek movies and Mission Impossible.

Edited December 27, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

The last two Star Wars films:

Rogue One: "This is a rebellion isn't it? I rebel."

The Last Jedi: "This is The Resistance isn't it? I should yield unquestionably to our command structure and follow all orders without question."

[ChelseaNH]

15 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I don't think Rey felt alone in the world at the end of the Force Awakens. Sure, she starts the movie alone. But by the end of TFA, she has Finn, BB-8, Chewbacca, an implied comfort/connection with Leia, and  a place in the Resistance. Luke is surly and their relationship is disappointing, but he IS teaching her. She's not really questioning her role in the story--she's the only one who can wield the Force and she's the one Anakin's lightsaber came to when called. 

I think there's a difference between feeling lonely and feeling alone.  Plus, even though Rey has people who like and accept her now, I believe it takes more than a few days' acquaintance to lay to rest some 15-20 years of abandonment issues.  And along the way, she's found something else that sets her apart from these people.  She's struggling with something they can't help her with.  Luke can help her, but keeps his distance even during their two lessons.

I don't see any evidence that she's not really questioning her role when she says she needs someone to tell her how she fits into the story, so I'm choosing to take her at her word.

Kylo Ren is someone who is willing to tell Rey how she fits.  She's spent so much time alone having to fend for herself; there has to be a temptation to let someone else make the decisions and take care of everything.  In some ways, that's what she was hoping Luke would do:  make it easy for her -- "Here are the answers, now you understand."  If only she belonged somewhere, life wouldn't be such a struggle.  But she learns it's not that simple.  She can choose to join Kylo Ren and be provided for, but she has to give up her sense of self.  Choosing the Resistance means accepting the struggle and insecurity she always longed to escape.

[Skyline]

On 12/26/2017 at 2:09 PM, cpcathy said:

Saw it on Sunday, and honestly could have done without a bunch of stuff, including bizarre creatures (except for the foxes!), and EVERYTHING on the casino planet, though I get the point they were making. Also could have done without Rose. Sorry 'bout it, Rose.

I think the next film needs to focus on Rey and Kylo. A) they had mad chemistry. B) Fight scene was BITCHIN! C) was totally expecting a "I love you." "I know" moment. I think I am the only one who sensed anything romantic and think it should go somewhere.  That may be an unpopular opinion.

It used to be an unpopular opinion. Now it's a mainstream ship. 

 

 

[Zuleikha]

I don't see any evidence that she's not really questioning her role when she says she needs someone to tell her how she fits into the story, so I'm choosing to take her at her word.

The words that Rian Johnson gave her for The Last Jedi, yes. My point was about Rey's character as developed in The Force Awakens, where Kylo tells her she needs a teacher and she instead closes her eyes, finds her oneness with the Force, and kicks his ass. I think Johnson failed to develop the characters or the plot in any kind of organic way from The Force Awakens, which is why I'm so frustrated with The Last Jedi.

[Joe]

So here's a good read on the movie. Some highlights:

Quote

Finn passes on the lessons he learned from Rose about the importance of their ideals and hopes to the next generation and helps them a bit (and gets helped in turn).

Snoke KNOWS that the Emperor is only killed in the finale of the third movie, so he deems himself safe. In fact, maybe he can short-circuit the process by forcing the confrontation before Luke completes his Jedi-training! Rey, I mean, of course. But Snoke's in the wrong movie. He's not the arch-villain. He's a road block.

The Jedi also start the movie dying, small and hounded. But every engagement leaves them actually stronger, which is why Luke's nihilistic apathy is so damning. Luke fears his old hubris of thinking he can solve the galaxy's problems so much that he creates a new hubris of him being "The Last Jedi", which he really is not. As the closing shot makes clear: there will always be new Jedi, in whatever form.

There's a good bit more. I like it all. Especially about Finn's story. It's not about his own story, it's about him inspiring others. Next time I watch the movie, I'll try to keep this in mind.

[Morrigan2575]

I thought Rose was the one the reached the kids in the Casino basement? 

[Joe]

26 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I thought Rose was the one the reached the kids in the Casino basement? 

Yes, she did. I kind of forgot that. Whoops. :)

[Lantern7]

In regards to Luke's last battle . . . I'm thinking he could be seen with the naked eye, given how the First Order greeted him. What if he wasn't visible otherwise? Imagine a black market demand for videos (or equivalent thereof) featuring Kylo Ren dramatically slashing at air, thinking he was battling his legendary uncle. And given that Kylo Ren may as well translate to "Punk-Ass Bitch" or "Bitch-Ass Punk," that would be very fitting.

[stealinghome]

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The last two Star Wars films:

Rogue One: "This is a rebellion isn't it? I rebel."

The Last Jedi: "This is The Resistance isn't it? I should yield unquestionably to our command structure and follow all orders without question."

IDK, I think there's a difference between "There's no plan to do what needs to be done" and "There's a plan to do what needs to be done, but I'm going to throw a hissy fit because I'm not in on the plan despite the fact that the last time someone told me their plan, I decided I had a better one and screwed us all bigtime." For me, the more thematically incoherent thing is actually having Holdo's heroic sacrifice juxtaposed against Rose preventing Finn from kamikaze-ing into the battering ram energy beam thing. I suppose you could make the argument that Holdo was already a dead woman walking while Finn wasn't, but still.

 

After a few days to process the movie, I think I'm more and more agreeing with those that thought that TLJ would have been a very solid standalone movie, but is a poor/disappointing follow-up to TFA. I'm far less interested in Rey, Finn, and Poe after TLJ than I was after TFA, and that's not a good sign (pretty much the only character who came out of TLJ more interesting/energizing was Leia, and, well...). The creative brass may have erred in giving the directors too much free rein over the storylines--the lack of a big overarching narrative really showed. And it's frustrating, because the bones of a movie that would still be interesting and thoughtful and deep while much more coherent character- and narrative-wise were embedded in TLJ, but Johnson just never capitalized on them.

[benteen]

The sequel trilogy is superior to the prequel trilogy in almost every way except in its overaching storyline.  Whatever the flaws of the prequels, it did have a stronger and more overaching narrative.  The rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker, the rise of Palpatine and his Empire, the fall of the Republic.  It just wasn't told in the best way.  As much as I've enjoyed both movies, the overaching narrative isn't strong, particularly when it comes to the political storyline (The New Republic, the First Order, the Resistance).  I think there needed to be a consistency in the overall storyline which these two films clearly don't have.

Like I said, I don't have much faith in JJ to deliver.  Having watched him over the year, he starts off strong and finishes weak.  Though usually, he starts up a new show and abandons it well before it's finished.  He's not that talented of a filmmaker and certainly isn't that original.  I do think he'll do much better with the characters though like Finn and he's always been strong with female characters.  He certainly did a much better job with Rey and Finn than Rian did.  I think the sequel trilogy has a fantastic cast and I like the characters a lot but without the big three to help anchor future movies, I don't think anticipation for Episode IX will be that strong and it will certainly make much less money than The Last Jedi.

Edited December 28, 2017 by benteen

[caracas1914]

The Benicia Del Toro character, DJ, was a heel but he’s interesting in that it’s all self serving who doesn’t give a flying fuck about the Resistance or the New Order.   I would say not so much a Lando Calrissian (forced to deal with the Empire and Vader as adminstrator of Cloud City) as early ANH Han Solo, who would do things for a price.

Admittedly what DJ did was horrible and amoral, but it was already established he had no love or allegiance to anyone, including the Resistance, so it’s hard to fathom why he would die on the sword for it suddenly.  As for Finn and Rose: They were all captured by the First Order, beyond obvious all three were going to be executed, if anything Finn was a deserter and traitor to begin with, so DJ figured he’d cut a deal to save his life AND get an ample reward by revealing the Rebel plans.  It at least makes his “betrayal” not that surprising.

I loved the little tidbit of the highjacked armsdealer ship revealing that selling weapons to both the New Order and the Resistance was the “business” side of the conflict.

Side note:  Is Benicio Del Toro the only major actor to have a role in both the Star Wars and Marvel movie universes?

Edited December 28, 2017 by caracas1914

[Danny Franks]

2 minutes ago, caracas1914 said:

Side note:  Is Benicio Del Toro the only major actor to have a role in both the Star Wars and Marvel movie universes?

Natalie Portman beat him to it, appearing in the prequels and in the first two Thor movies. And her character was written fairly horribly in both. But at least in Thor she got to show some comedic chops.

[caracas1914]

4 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Natalie Portman beat him to it, appearing in the prequels and in the first two Thor movies. And her character was written fairly horribly in both. But at least in Thor she got to show some comedic chops.

I knew the prequels would be my kryptonite...LOL..

It’s amazing how such a good actress as Natalie Portman was so wooden in the Star Wars universe, which shows yet again it all begins with the script.  

[Morrigan2575]

19 minutes ago, caracas1914 said:

I knew the prequels would be my kryptonite...LOL..

It’s amazing how such a good actress as Natalie Portman was so wooden in the Star Wars universe, which shows yet again it all begins with the script.  

She was wooden in Thor too (didn't watch Dark World) personally I think she doesn't do well with CGI heavy movies

[layofluthien]

10 hours ago, stealinghome said:

IDK, I think there's a difference between "There's no plan to do what needs to be done" and "There's a plan to do what needs to be done, but I'm going to throw a hissy fit because I'm not in on the plan despite the fact that the last time someone told me their plan, I decided I had a better one and screwed us all bigtime." For me, the more thematically incoherent thing is actually having Holdo's heroic sacrifice juxtaposed against Rose preventing Finn from kamikaze-ing into the battering ram energy beam thing. I suppose you could make the argument that Holdo was already a dead woman walking while Finn wasn't, but still.

 

After a few days to process the movie, I think I'm more and more agreeing with those that thought that TLJ would have been a very solid standalone movie, but is a poor/disappointing follow-up to TFA. I'm far less interested in Rey, Finn, and Poe after TLJ than I was after TFA, and that's not a good sign (pretty much the only character who came out of TLJ more interesting/energizing was Leia, and, well...). The creative brass may have erred in giving the directors too much free rein over the storylines--the lack of a big overarching narrative really showed. And it's frustrating, because the bones of a movie that would still be interesting and thoughtful and deep while much more coherent character- and narrative-wise were embedded in TLJ, but Johnson just never capitalized on them.

Holdo gave no indication that there was a plan at all besides passively drifting until they run out of gas and die.  Poe and his fellow mutineers did the right thing with the information they had to save lives.  His judgement call to take out the dreadnaught also proved correct when they were followed into hyperspace. If that ship wasn’t destroyed the Resistance would have all died much sooner.

[stealinghome]

Unless the original dreadnought was faster than the Resistance ships--which seems unlikely--it wouldn't have been able to catch up to the Resistance ships as they were fleeing, though. Its survival wouldn't have materially changed the game relative to the Resistance's sprint to safety. That said, didn't a second dreadnought arrive shortly after the whole First Order fleet tracked the Resistance to hyperspace? I thought the whole point of the second dreadnought was to show that Poe had gotten a bunch of people killed on what was fundamentally a pointless bombing run, since the First Order just had another massive, super powerful, bristling-with-deadly-arms ship come to reinforce their forces.

We'll have to agree to disagree that Holdo gave no indication there was a plan. imo Holdo communicated to Poe that there was a plan and he should fall in line and follow the plan. That he didn't believe her--and fucked the whole plan up as a result--is on his arrogance and inability to follow a clearly-defined command structure (when he just had been busted in rank for not paying attention to the command structure, mind), not her. Everyone else in the Resistance managed to follow orders and not get a bunch of people killed, so.... I do think the movie miscalculated the severity of Poe's fuck-up, though, I will say. He just got an immense amount of people killed and almost single-handedly killed the entire Resistance (he's like the First Order's MVP in the movie)--how could anyone in the Resistance ever trust him or follow him again? I don't think Rian Johnson really understood the magnitude of how awful he made Poe.

[VCRTracking]

16 hours ago, doram said:

I really wish JJ had stuck around and done every movie in this trilogy, or at least left a cast-iron road map of how he wanted the story to go. Because it's very glaring that Rian has no idea how to write a female hero without making her story about a man.

Yes, Abrams, the guy who created a show about a female character who follows a boy across country to  New York and goes to the same college because she had a crush on him and another show about a female character who goes undercover in an evil spy agency to avenge the death of her fiancee.

12 hours ago, stealinghome said:

After a few days to process the movie, I think I'm more and more agreeing with those that thought that TLJ would have been a very solid standalone movie, but is a poor/disappointing follow-up to TFA. I'm far less interested in Rey, Finn, and Poe after TLJ than I was after TFA, and that's not a good sign (pretty much the only character who came out of TLJ more interesting/energizing was Leia, and, well...).

I like the characters in TFA but besides Rey and Poe being almost too perfect the problem I had with them was they felt like children. Not just Kylo Ren with his tantrums but in various ways Rey, Finn and Poe felt like kids in adult bodies Rey wearing the Rebel helmet, while endearing(as intended) made her seem like a little girl. When Han took Rey and Finn to Maz Kanata it felt like he was taking them to Chuck E. Cheese or grandma's. One of the reasons I liked TLJ was it forced them to grow up.

Edited December 28, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Browncoat]

I don't remember a second dreadnought, but Snoke's ship was pretty impressive.

The escape plan was that everyone would board the shuttles and head for the red velvet planet, while cloaked (and thus undetectable) by the main transport's shields.  Holdo and the main transport would draw fire from the star destroyers and Snoke's ship and lead them away from the shuttles and the planet, probably not jumping to light speed until the shuttles were safely on the surface, if at all.  Then, after the transport was destroyed, the First Order would believe all of the Resistance was dead.   Unfortunately, that plan and the shuttles were revealed (thanks, DJ!), and the plan had to change.  Holdo alone made the decision to jump to light speed through Snoke's ship.  While she was always meant to sacrifice herself, it was not meant to be in that manner.

[VCRTracking]

53 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

We'll have to agree to disagree that Holdo gave no indication there was a plan. imo Holdo communicated to Poe that there was a plan and he should fall in line and follow the plan. That he didn't believe her--and fucked the whole plan up as a result--is on his arrogance and inability to follow a clearly-defined command structure (when he just had been busted in rank for not paying attention to the command structure, mind), not her. Everyone else in the Resistance managed to follow orders and not get a bunch of people killed, so.... I do think the movie miscalculated the severity of Poe's fuck-up, though, I will say. He just got an immense amount of people killed and almost single-handedly killed the entire Resistance (he's like the First Order's MVP in the movie)--how could anyone in the Resistance ever trust him or follow him again? I don't think Rian Johnson really understood the magnitude of how awful he made Poe.

They definitely gotten on the wrong foot when Holdo was condescending to him in their first meeting. Granted he did deserve it after his Dreadnaught plan which while successful was very costly. He needed the ego check but It made him defying her by sending Poe and Rose on their secret mission that much easier.

The Resistance fleet was being decimated so I think that caused emotions to be so high and deperation to grow. If Poe didn't already have his own secret plan in place he wouldn't have staged a mutiny. He was betting it all on his plan working. It was risky but the worst that could happen(he thought) was only two people would be captured or killed. When he approved it it he was looking at Leia's comatose body and holding her hand so I think part of what motivated him was he felt he let her down and he was listening to what she said earlier that he should be a leader, but taking it the wrong way.

[stealinghome]

33 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I like the characters in TFA but besides Rey and Poe being almost too perfect the problem I had with them was they felt like children. Not just Kylo Ren with his tantrums but in various ways Rey, Finn and Poe felt like kids in adult bodies. Rey wearing the Rebel helmet, while endearing made her seem like a little girl. When Han took Rey and Finn to Maz Kanata it felt like he was taking them to Chuck E. Cheese or grandma's. One of the reasons I liked TLJ was it forced them to grow up. They went through their "teenage phase" and teenagers can be stupid or obnoxious or both.

I agree that many of the characters* felt like children in TFA, but I always thought that was part of the point of that movie. TLJ spells out that Kylo Ren is still just a child pretending to be an adult, but in different ways Rey and Finn both have arrested development of their own going on in TFA. Rey is still that little girl who wants/believes/has to believe that her parents are coming back for her, and she has to get over that childish belief and embrace her new reality (calling the lightsaber in the woods and opening herself to the Force), while Finn's got some really stunted development after being kidnapped as a child and groomed to be a stormtrooper and has to find the courage to fight back, self-actualize, and socialize (joining up with the Resistance to save Rey). *I'm leaving Poe off the list because imo we barely got a sense of his character at all in TFA, though I agree that his arc in TLJ was also about growing up.

So, I don't mind that TLJ forced them all to grow up even more, that's the next logical step in the story--I just thought it wasn't done in a particularly interesting and/or organic way where most of the characters were concerned. Finn had the most organic arc relative to TFA, I think--TFA is about him finding the courage to stand up to the First Order but his motive is always Rey, while by the end of TLJ he's a true believer in the ideas of the Resistance and fights because it's the right thing to do--but the execution was pretty poor. Poe's arc could have worked in theory, except he got SO MANY of his fellow Resistance members killed by being a dumbass that it taints the character. Rey's character is at best stagnant throughout and being turned into Space Bella Swan to further Kylo Ren's arc for large chunks did the character negative favors (even my mom, who thinks about these movies significantly less than I do, said that this movie diminished her character). I suppose Kylo Ren's ascending to be Emperor Kylo is organic enough, but he's just not nearly as interesting as the movie/Rian Johnson desperately wants him to be. Cool motive bro, still murder, you know?

I just have to think there was a way for TLJ to make the characters grow up that was more interesting/organic for each character.

Edited December 28, 2017 by stealinghome

[ChelseaNH]

3 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

AND get an ample reward by revealing the Rebel plans

How did he know about those plans?  Finn and Rose didn't know about the sneaking away under cover part.  It's possible he did some sort of detective work along the way, but why would he think of looking for the exact thing they were doing?

[Browncoat]

Didn't Poe tell Finn the plan while Finn, Rose and DJ were on Snoke's ship?  I remember they were all communicating with each other. 

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

How did he know about those plans?  Finn and Rose didn't know about the sneaking away under cover part.  It's possible he did some sort of detective work along the way, but why would he think of looking for the exact thing they were doing?

Only watched it once but, I thought Space Fenster overheard Poe telling Finn about it.

[anna0852]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Natalie Portman beat him to it, appearing in the prequels and in the first two Thor movies. And her character was written fairly horribly in both. But at least in Thor she got to show some comedic chops.

Plus Samuel L Jackson, Forest Whitaker, Lupita N'yongo and Andy Serkis

[stealinghome]

Quote

Only watched it once but, I thought Space Fenster overheard Poe telling Finn about it.

Quote

Didn't Poe tell Finn the plan while Finn, Rose and DJ were on Snoke's ship?  I remember they were all communicating with each other. 

iirc Poe doesn't know about the plan until he wakes up on the transport ship with Leia, though, and by that point Finn and Rose have already been captured (Poe gets stunned by Leia and Finn/Rose get captured by the First Order at basically the same moment).

My personal fanwank is that DJ had cottoned onto the fact that the bracelet was important somehow, told the First Order it was important, and they tinkered with it enough to figure out what it was and how it worked. Or maybe he grabbed it when they were stunned and tinkered with it himself and then sold it once he knew it was of value. Either way, once you know what the bracelet's for, it's a pretty easy leap to make that you should point it at the Resistance ships and see what happens.... It's a bit of a plot hole, I agree, but some reviews have talked about it like it's some massive gaping hole in the narrative and I don't think it's that either. It's easy enough to fanwank away.