Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, stealinghome said:

-Luke's sassy sense of humor. Him brushing the dirt off his shoulder, his first lesson with Rey and the leaf, and his "Jakku? Yeah, that IS pretty close to nowhere" comments were all hilarious.  In fact, in general this movie had great humor. It picked and chose it spots, and so the lines all landed VERY well. The running gag of Rey bedeviling the caretakers and getting bopped in the head with her own lightsaber were personal faves, as was her "I've seen your daily routine! You're really not busy!" to Luke. Hee! And Chewie eating the porg as the other porgs watched in horror! And Yoda's snark. "Missed you I have, young Skywalker" with the vocal equivalent of a huge, fond eyeroll was just hilarious.

-Luke being a Force Projection on the ice planet. SO AWESOME. Also, his last moment with Leia, when they said goodbye. It was so incredibly poignant, especially in light of Carrie Fisher's passing. And Luke's death, finally at peace, in the shadow of the binary suns. That was a lovely, understated moment.

Agreed on both counts. I thought the humor was great and loved everything about Luke on Crait at the end.

[Zuleikha]

You can make the same argument that Luke was OOC for believing he could save Darth Vader and that there was good in him when at that point there was no evidence for that. I think Rey began to blame Luke for Ben becoming Kylo and by that what happened to Finn and Han's death.

Luke was Darth Vader's son, and Luke had grown up with the legend of his heroic father. There was a lot more history and logical emotional connection between those characters.

Kylo meant nothing to Rey. He was just some jerk who tried to torture her, whose mind told her he was most afraid of not being a strong serial killer, and who had just murdered his father. I don't think she ever really believed that Luke was responsible for Kylo Ren becoming Kylo Ren and neither version of the night of the Jedi Academy massacre leads to that conclusion. Kylo was already turning to the Dark Side before Luke ignited a light saber and, on top of that, the logical reaction to being betrayed is not to massacre a group of innocent young people. The movie had her avoid asking any of the logical follow up questions, but Luke's only failure is the failure to persuade Kylo Ren to make better choices.

 It wouldn't have been believable if he was suddenly able to beat her in their second fight so I think she needed another way to fail in this one.

She could have failed by turning to the Dark Side or flirting with turning to the Dark Side. That would have fit some of the foreshadowing and the whole bit with the cave (that was an amazing visual sequence but didn't really add much).

[stealinghome]

13 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

She could have failed by turning to the Dark Side or flirting with turning to the Dark Side. That would have fit some of the foreshadowing and the whole bit with the cave (that was an amazing visual sequence but didn't really add much).

I actually think part of the movie's problem is that it lets Rey fail, but her failures are never really treated as such and there are no consequences, and therefore (unlike Poe and Finn) she doesn't grow. I THINK part of the idea behind the cave sequence was supposed to be that Rey fell for the Dark Side's temptation, but there are no real consequences to that lapse--Luke's basically been grunting at her all movie anyway, so their relationship falling apart doesn't really hit home emotionally. Then, you could argue that she fails insofar as her hubris leads her to believe that she can redeem Kylo Ren and she promptly hands herself over, except there are no consequences to her handing herself over--in fact, the Resistance kind of makes out because Snoke winds up dead and Ren and Hux are such morons the First Order will implode within a year under them--nor do we get any meaningful self-reflection out of it on Rey's end (which I actually think the end scene with Leia would have been perfect for--seriously, a 2-minute conversation there could have done wonders for Rey's arc in the film). imo it would have been okay even if the consequence Rey faced was just a massive humbling--a sense that she'd been overconfident in herself and wrote an unrealistic narrative because she wanted to see herself a certain way--but we don't get that.

More broadly, though, I don't think the film knew what it wanted to do with Rey's character in the way that it knew what it wanted to do and executed (however clumsily) with Poe and Finn. Rey's stuff was slow but solid through the scene where Luke tickles her with the plant and then ultimately freaks out because she doesn't run away screaming from the Dark Side, but it kind of goes to pieces after that, and she becomes a player in Ren and Luke's stories more than a driver of her own.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

She could have failed by turning to the Dark Side or flirting with turning to the Dark Side. That would have fit some of the foreshadowing and the whole bit with the cave (that was an amazing visual sequence but didn't really add much).

Rian Johnson on the cave:

Quote

“The idea was if the up top is the light, down underneath is the darkness And she descends down into there and has to see, just like Luke did in the cave, her greatest fear. And her greatest fear is [that], in the search for identity, she has nobody but herself to rely on.”

 

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

I actually think part of the movie's problem is that it lets Rey fail, but her failures are never really treated as such and there are no consequences, and therefore (unlike Poe and Finn) she doesn't grow. I THINK part of the idea behind the cave sequence was supposed to be that Rey fell for the Dark Side's temptation, but there are no real consequences to that lapse--Luke's basically been grunting at her all movie anyway, so their relationship falling apart doesn't really hit home emotionally. Then, you could argue that she fails insofar as her hubris leads her to believe that she can redeem Kylo Ren and she promptly hands herself over, except there are no consequences to her handing herself over--in fact, the Resistance kind of makes out because Snoke winds up dead and Ren and Hux are such morons the First Order will implode within a year under them--nor do we get any meaningful self-reflection out of it on Rey's end (which I actually think the end scene with Leia would have been perfect for--seriously, a 2-minute conversation there could have done wonders for Rey's arc in the film). imo it would have been okay even if the consequence Rey faced was just a massive humbling--a sense that she'd been overconfident in herself and wrote an unrealistic narrative because she wanted to see herself a certain way--but we don't get that.

I just needed her to fail once even if the only consequence was her disappointment. And I disagree she doesn't grow.

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

More broadly, though, I don't think the film knew what it wanted to do with Rey's character in the way that it knew what it wanted to do and executed (however clumsily) with Poe and Finn. Rey's stuff was slow but solid through the scene where Luke tickles her with the plant and then ultimately freaks out because she doesn't run away screaming from the Dark Side, but it kind of goes to pieces after that, and she becomes a player in Ren and Luke's stories more than a driver of her own.

If she had the familial connection people wanted it wouldn't be seen as her being a player in other's stories.

[ulkis]

13 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Although according to this Luke would have been reunited with Han and Leia in Lucas' version.

https://heroichollywood.com/george-lucas-star-wars-last-jedi-idea-luke-skywalker-exile/

I'm still kinda stunned they didn't have them share a scene together in the first movie. At least a flashback, since the way they set it up they really was no way to write a scene with all three.

[SNeaker]

I feel like I need a prequel series to this series, only it's impossible without Carrie :(

[Crs97]

 So Luke goes after Darth Vader when Darth Vader is at the height of his powers and the epitome of all evil and can see a glimmer of hope that allows him to turn Darth back to good against all odds, but he sees some darkness in his nephew and for a moment thinks he should kill him?  Rey had to teach Luke that Kylo has a choice and isn’t confined to a destiny of evil?  I don’t think so.  

I enjoyed the movie, but hate that they felt it necessary to weaken Luke’s character to strengthen Rey’s.

[Danny Franks]

13 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

 So Luke goes after Darth Vader when Darth Vader is at the height of his powers and the epitome of all evil and can see a glimmer of hope that allows him to turn Darth back to good against all odds, but he sees some darkness in his nephew and for a moment thinks he should kill him?  Rey had to teach Luke that Kylo has a choice and isn’t confined to a destiny of evil?  I don’t think so.  

I enjoyed the movie, but hate that they felt it necessary to weaken Luke’s character to strengthen Rey’s.

But Rey was wrong. That's the point. She  believed Kylo Ren could be redeemed, Luke knew he couldn't. What he said about Vader was, "there is still good in you. I can feel it", but with Kylo Ren, he felt something different. Something that scared him in a way Vader seemingly never did. Kylo Ren has already made his choice. Tempting Rey was never about flirting with joining the Light again, it was about trying to drag someone else down into the darkness with him.

I find fault in what Mark Hamill said about Jedis never running away and giving up. Because that's precisely what both Yoda and Obi Wan did, after Anakin turned on them and helped kill the Order. They ran away, they never tried to raise a rebellion themselves. One of them spent twenty years pottering about on a desert planet, the other living in a swamp. So what Luke did was entirely consistent with what his two mentors did. Not the best behaviour, but that just brings us back to coming face to face with your heroes having feet of clay.

[VCRTracking]

27 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

So Luke goes after Darth Vader when Darth Vader is at the height of his powers and the epitome of all evil and can see a glimmer of hope that allows him to turn Darth back to good against all odds, but he sees some darkness in his nephew and for a moment thinks he should kill him?  Rey had to teach Luke that Kylo has a choice and isn’t confined to a destiny of evil?  I don’t think so.  

I enjoyed the movie, but hate that they felt it necessary to weaken Luke’s character to strengthen Rey’s.

Luke also went nuts and tried to murder Vader when he threatened to turn Leia to the dark side. When he feels the people he loves are threatened he acts on impulse.

5 hours ago, doram said:

In TFA, JJ Abrahms (Felicity, Sydney Bristow) told a story about Rey. In TLJ, Rian made the story about Kylo Ren. To shift this axis, every character was either retconned to support him (Rey), to woobify him (Luke) or written out of the main plot because they couldn't logically prop him (Finn). Once you start seeing that shift, the narrative decisions make perfect sense.

 

10 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Kylo was already turning to the Dark Side before Luke ignited a light saber and, on top of that, the logical reaction to being betrayed is not to massacre a group of innocent young people. The movie had her avoid asking any of the logical follow up questions

Because that doesn't serve Kylo's story. Johnson couldn't un-do the massacre, but he could contrive a reason to absolve Kylo of primary responsibility for it.

In TFA JJ told a story about Rey AND Finn.  Johnson was telling Rey's story but also Kylo's, Luke's, Finn's and Poe's. If it had been only Rey's story I don't see how Finn would've been anything but supporting and Poe would've shoehorned in it. Johnson probably is a godsend to Reylos because Abrams wouldn't have been great at bringing them to the point they reached in TLJ. Sydney and Sark on ALIAS never went beyond flirting on his part as I recall. She was either mourning Daniel, UST with Vauhnn and friendzoning Will.

As I posted it seems Lucas had the idea first of Luke living in isolation and in a dark place after 30 years when a girl comes to learn the Jedi ways from him. Disney and Kathleen Kennedy made the decision to push that story back to Episode VIII and introduce the female protagonist in Episode VII and go on a fun adventure with Han Solo first before getting into any heavy Jedi mystical stuff with a depressed Luke. If it was for more commercial reasons it worked.

Edited December 22, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Crs97]

Yep.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mark-hamill-rips-role-apos-145123576.html

[ulkis]

I disagree with MH that Jedi never run or give up, cause there had to be some, but I'd argue that Obi Wan and Yoda gave up though, both were waiting for the right opportunity.

Edited December 25, 2017 by ulkis

[SNeaker]

Obi Wan and Yoda went into hiding because Jedi were being hunted and slaughtered. They weren't isolating themselves so they could stew in their failure. And as Ulkis, points out, they were waiting for the Skywalker twins to grow up. When Obi-Wan got the message from Leia, he was like "Ok, Luke, time to go!" He was ready to get back in there. Luke gets told they need his help and he's like "life suuuuuuucks we're doomed to fail everything everything is meaningless there is nothing new under the twin suns and evil will always win over good because good is dumb."

Which, to be fair, is the message I've been getting from these movies.

Edited December 22, 2017 by SNeaker

[Crs97]

Obi Wan’s mission was to protect Luke until he came of age.  He wasn’t in hiding just to hide.  I agree with Mark’s assessment, but regrettably understand that at age 50 I am no longer their key demographic.

[VCRTracking]

15 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

Obi Wan and Yoda went into hiding because Jedi were being hunted and slaughtered. They weren't isolating themselves so they could stew in their failure. And as Ulkis, points out, they were waiting for the Skywalker twins to grow up. When Obi-Wan got the message from Leia, he was like "Ok, Luke, time to go!" He was ready to get back in there. Luke gets told they need his help and he's like "life suuuuuuucks we're doomed to fail everything everything is meaningless there is nothing new under the twin suns and evil will always win over good because good is dumb."

Which, to be fair, is the message I've been getting from these movies.

Obi-Wan and Yoda were waiting for the twins to grow up and fix their mistake by killing their father. That's not exactly noble either.

The message I got is you can't get completely get rid of evil, it'll always come back but you don't give up even if you're down to only 20 people.

I understand Mark disagreeing with Luke's direction in TLJ but he also disagreed with his direction in Return of the Jedi as he said in a 2005 Dinner for Five episode which is on YouTube. He wanted Luke to turn to the Dark Side and almost kill Han before turning back to the light. He didn't want redeeming Vader story which fans now cite as to why Luke would never even think about killing Ben.

"A Jedi doesn't run" Well a Jedi's not supposed to form attachments either or behave like a normal human being with emotions.

[Spartan Girl]

Mark didn't completely rip it. Even though he didn't agree with all the choices, he still said that he thought Rian Johnson was the right man for the job. Plus, as he so eloquently put it, it's only a movie.

[Jediknight]

17 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

My friend was wondering how those kids at the end heard about Luke and Kylo's fight. I've decided Hux sent out a bulletin to all corners of the galaxy that Kylo got his ass beat by a hologram. That last look from Hux was pure hatred. I look forward to their partnership.

Just got back from it a second time, and look at Hux's face when Kylo demands that every gun be fired on Luke.  That's a look of apprehension.  Luke's appearance could have also been a spark to put Hux on the path to turning against the First Order.  I'm still saying that he's the one that helps the Resistance/Rebellion, them doing a Kallus like arc in the movies.  Hell, I'd love it if it was said the message about what Luke did was sent by somebody named Fulcrum.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Jediknight

[Danny Franks]

9 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Just got back from it a second time, and look at Hux's face when Kylo demands that every gun be fired on Luke.  That's a look of apprehension.  Luke's appearance could have also been a spark to put Hux on the path to turning against the First Order.  I'm still saying that he's the one that helps the Resistance/Rebellion, them doing a Kallus like arc in the movies.  Hell, I'd love it if it was said the message about what Luke did was sent by somebody named Fulcrum.

I think Hux just hates Kylo Ren, but he seems to love the First Order. I could see him turning against them if he comes to believe that Kylo Ren is perverting the First Order and what it stands for (which he will, because Kylo Ren is only ever about what he wants. He seems like the narcissist that often comes along and destroys a unified, clearly defined group with his own self-interest). But would Hux actually join the Rebels? I can't see that. Perhaps a reluctant temporary alliance.

[Lantern7]

The impression that I got is that Ben wants to go against both sides. Is that nihilism, or the local equivalent? I have to admit that a "Fuck the Jedi, Fuck the Sith" attitude would be unique for the franchise. Has there been anything like that in the pre-Marvel/Disney extended universe?

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I think Hux just hates Kylo Ren, but he seems to love the First Order. I could see him turning against them if he comes to believe that Kylo Ren is perverting the First Order and what it stands for (which he will, because Kylo Ren is only ever about what he wants. He seems like the narcissist that often comes along and destroys a unified, clearly defined group with his own self-interest). But would Hux actually join the Rebels? I can't see that. Perhaps a reluctant temporary alliance.

I am kind of guessing that Hux will inadvertently help out the Resistance by screwing Kylo Ren somehow. He won’t be intending to help the Resistance out, but he’ll do something to undermine Ren in their own little power struggle and whatever he does will end up rippling out and greatly aiding the Resistance unbeknownst to anyone.  

[Zuleikha]

Obi-Wan and Yoda were waiting for the twins to grow up and fix their mistake by killing their father. That's not exactly noble either.

Jedi aren't pacifists. They're totally fine with military and combat solutions. Also, I thought Obi-Wan and Yoda were waiting for the twins specifically because they expected them to be able to use the Force and thought only a Force wielder would be able to defeat Palpatine and Vader. Which I think was a reasonable suspicion.

In any case, the main point is that they weren't on Tatooine and Dagobah because they gave up. They were doing a long-term plan.

I didn't necessarily have a problem with Luke giving up, but I thought it was another thing TLJ didn't do as strongly as it should have. I was actually pretty excited for the idea of Luke deciding that the Jedi should end and that wielding the Force creates more problems than it solves. But Johnson seemed so afraid of expository scenes that IMHO, we didn't get enough insight into Luke's broader issues with the Jedi and the Force. I don't think Luke would give up solely based on what happened with Kylo Ren--if anything, I think he would have felt more personal responsibility to stop Kylo. 

“The idea was if the up top is the light, down underneath is the darkness And she descends down into there and has to see, just like Luke did in the cave, her greatest fear. And her greatest fear is [that], in the search for identity, she has nobody but herself to rely on.”

I don't think the movie sold this very clearly... IIRC, when Rey is recounting what happened to Kylo, she explicitly says that she's not afraid even though she knows she should be. But moreover, I really don't think TFA established Rey as this character with burning questions about her identity. She's waiting out of hope, loneliness, and faith. Maz convinces Rey to move on, which she does. Rey is confident and secure in her confrontations with Kylo while Kylo is the one weakened by identity confusion/fear. 

 I have to admit that a "Fuck the Jedi, Fuck the Sith" attitude would be unique for the franchise.

Asajj Ventress basically has it by the end of Clone Wars. Ahsoka Tano sort of has it, too. It's part of why I really wonder how much of an impact seeing Clone Wars has on opinions about TLJ.

[Helena Dax]

I can't say I liked. it Some scenes were quite good -Kylo and Rey fighting against the ugly guy, their weird connection, Luke and Leia meeting again, Luke trolling his nephew- and I liked to see so many important female characters. However, the movie didn't work to me. Some parts were boring, the dialogue was awful and trite and half of the plot didn't make any sense. It also had too many things in common with Empire. I just feel this new trilogy has nothing really new to tell. And where's the character development? Brat Vader is the only half interesting character right now. Rey, Finn and Poe are so predictable it hurts, I don't know, I've always been fond of the original trilogy, but I think I'm done. 

[SnoGirl]

8 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

Jedi aren't pacifists. They're totally fine with military and combat solutions. Also, I thought Obi-Wan and Yoda were waiting for the twins specifically because they expected them to be able to use the Force and thought only a Force wielder would be able to defeat Palpatine and Vader. Which I think was a reasonable suspicion.

In any case, the main point is that they weren't on Tatooine and Dagobah because they gave up. They were doing a long-term plan.

I didn't necessarily have a problem with Luke giving up, but I thought it was another thing TLJ didn't do as strongly as it should have. I was actually pretty excited for the idea of Luke deciding that the Jedi should end and that wielding the Force creates more problems than it solves. But Johnson seemed so afraid of expository scenes that IMHO, we didn't get enough insight into Luke's broader issues with the Jedi and the Force. I don't think Luke would give up solely based on what happened with Kylo Ren--if anything, I think he would have felt more personal responsibility to stop Kylo. 

 

I don't think the movie sold this very clearly... IIRC, when Rey is recounting what happened to Kylo, she explicitly says that she's not afraid even though she knows she should be. But moreover, I really don't think TFA established Rey as this character with burning questions about her identity. She's waiting out of hope, loneliness, and faith. Maz convinces Rey to move on, which she does. Rey is confident and secure in her confrontations with Kylo while Kylo is the one weakened by identity confusion/fear. 

 

Asajj Ventress basically has it by the end of Clone Wars. Ahsoka Tano sort of has it, too. It's part of why I really wonder how much of an impact seeing Clone Wars has on opinions about TLJ.

I think the Jedi are far from perfect. I dont get removing themselves from emotional attachments. It was obvious from Episode III that Obi Wan was pretty damn attached to Anakin. Maybe if they had attachments, the whole mess with Anakin could have been avoided.

I just binged Clone Wars on Netflix. I really wish Ahsoka would appear in the movies. It would have been interesting if she had answered the Rebels call for help...or if any old jedi had survived the Order and had appeared.

 Clone Wars has made me wish we’d get more aliens as main players. I loved Maz, I hated that she was a video clip for five minutes. They killed off Admiral Akbar.  Its a giant galaxy...

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Jediknight said:

I'm still saying that he's the one that helps the Resistance/Rebellion, them doing a Kallus like arc in the movies. 

 

Nah, Hux is selfish, and a little bit dumb.  You could see his officer struggle to replace "you idiot" with "sir" in the "I think he's fucking with you, sir" at the movie' beginning.  If he helps the Resistance it will be through a self-interested act not through conscious desire.  Kylo Ren killing Snoke has helped the Resistance enormously because he's replaced a competent leader with an incompetent one.  Hux will do something to attack or distract Kylo to try to further his own power (and get murdered for it by Kylo) and that will help the Resistance but he certainly won't switch sides.

[Bruinsfan]

21 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

[Rey] was a primary hero who had beaten the villain pretty soundly in the first movie.  She was more powerful by the end of one movie than Luke was at the end of three. It wouldn't have been believable if he was suddenly able to beat her in their second fight so I think she needed another way to fail in this one. She still got to be a hero in the end by moving the rocks and saving the resistance.

That's overstating the case a bit. Luke decisively beat Vader in RotJ; I think by that point his mastery of the Force exceeded anyone we've seen except Yoda and the Emperor. Rey had a quicker learning curve in her first movie than Luke did, but she also apparently learned how to use the Force at all via two-way mind meld cram course rather than the bare beginnings of proper Jedi training as Luke had. I'd say she's in about the same place development-wise at the end of TLJ as Luke was at the end of TESB, he just had much more formidable opposition to make him seem hopelessly overmatched whereas she'll likely be the most talented Force user left standing once Leia passes away.

[SnoGirl]

52 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

That's overstating the case a bit. Luke decisively beat Vader in RotJ; I think by that point his mastery of the Force exceeded anyone we've seen except Yoda and the Emperor. Rey had a quicker learning curve in her first movie than Luke did, but she also apparently learned how to use the Force at all via two-way mind meld cram course rather than the bare beginnings of proper Jedi training as Luke had. I'd say she's in about the same place development-wise at the end of TLJ as Luke was at the end of TESB, he just had much more formidable opposition to make him seem hopelessly overmatched whereas she'll likely be the most talented Force user left standing once Leia passes away.

Well, and you have Rey who obviously had grown-up on stories of Luke, Leia, and Solo...not to mention stories of the Force.  Whereas Luke really didnt grow up hearing those stories. He had to believe in Jedi, and then himself. Rey already knew of the stories, she just needed to find it within herself. She damn near fangirled herself when talking to Solo on the Falcon...as much so as Rose did to Finn might I add. But it probably felt different to a lot of us because we had been waiting so long for this series, we probably would have said the same thing if we had been in her position.

What Im curious about if Rey’s Force strength versus Kylo. What the hell has he been doing that she’s, as a noob Force-user, can match him in a fight? 

[Joe]

31 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

What Im curious about if Rey’s Force strength versus Kylo. What the hell has he been doing that she’s, as a noob Force-user, can match him in a fight? 

My feeling is that the Force is based more on belief than actual power. If you believe you can raise an X-Wing from a swamp, you can. Rey has been scrapping and scavenging for many years. If she didn't believe in herself, she'd have given up and died by now. While Ben falls into the ROTS Anakin trap of beliving that everyone should bend to him just because he has power, rather than actually working for respect. No, I can't fit Midi-chlorians into my theory.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Joe

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

My feeling is that the Force is based more on belief than actual power. If you believe you can raise an X-Wing from a swamp, you can. Rey has been scrapping and scavenging for many years. If she didn't believe in herself, she'd have given up and died by now. While Ben falls into the ROTS Anakin trap of beliving that everyone should bend to him just because he has power, rather than actually working for respect. No, I can't fit Midi-chlorians into my theory.

Somebody else mentioned that no one except Qui-gon ever talked about midi-chlorians.  Their theory was basically that Qui-gon is that guy at the office who's decent and really good at his job, but also believes some wacky bullshit like Ancient Aliens, chem-trails or the hollow earth theory.

Figure once Qui-gon was bisected by Darth Maul, even Yoda was like "Sad I am that Qui-gon has left us.  Sad I am not to end talk of midi-chlorians.  Sick of that silly bullshit I have become."

[Joe]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Somebody else mentioned that no one except Qui-gon ever talked about midi-chlorians.  Their theory was basically that Qui-gon is that guy at the office who's decent and really good at his job, but also believes some wacky bullshit like Ancient Aliens, chem-trails or the hollow earth theory.

Figure once Qui-gon was bisected by Darth Maul, even Yoda was like "Sad I am that Qui-gon has left us.  Sad I am not to end talk of midi-chlorians.  Sick of that silly bullshit I have become."

Sadly, they were brought up in ROTS and The Clone Wars. So they're a thing. But they only have five appearances in canon. Seems that no one except Lucas likes them.

[Spartan Girl]

10 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

I think the Jedi are far from perfect. I dont get removing themselves from emotional attachments. It was obvious from Episode III that Obi Wan was pretty damn attached to Anakin. Maybe if they had attachments, the whole mess with Anakin could have been avoided.

Let's not pretend Anakin's "attachment" to Padme wasn't toxic. There's a fine line between caring about someone and obsession. What started as an innocent schoolboy crush twisted into something dark and possessive. "You're in my soul, tormenting me" wasn't exactly a heartwarming declaration of love. The idea of losing Padme maddened him so much that he strangled the mother of his unborn twins when he thought she betrayed him. 

Maybe the Jedi didn't have to cut themselves off like monks, but I think their point was not to let the fear of loss control their lives.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, doram said:

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Let's not pretend Anakin's "attachment" to Padme wasn't toxic. There's a fine line between caring about someone and obsession. What started as an innocent schoolboy crush twisted into something dark and possessive. 

I don't think Anakin was ever an innocent schoolboy. When we first meet him is a 9-year-old slave with a bomb in his chest. There isn't much room for "innocence" there. So this 9-year old kid with emotional baggage and PTSD is taken to an Order of space monks who tell him that all natural affection and attachment is wrong, and will make him evil. Not the best recipe for emotional maturity. 

I think you kind of get, and still somehow miss the point.

Well the problem with the Anakin and Padme ship as depicted beyond the horrible dialogue was that Anakin always looked pissed off at Padme even in the scenes that are supposed to be romantic! He always has this angry expression when he's with her.  One of the reasons I think Reylo has such a bigger following is  because even though Kylo has rage issues and throws tantrums he's never that angry with Rey.  Most of the time he talks to Rey in TFA and TLJ he's very calm while she angrily yells at him calling him a "monster" and "murderous snake".

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

13 hours ago, Joe said:

My feeling is that the Force is based more on belief than actual power. If you believe you can raise an X-Wing from a swamp, you can. Rey has been scrapping and scavenging for many years. If she didn't believe in herself, she'd have given up and died by now. While Ben falls into the ROTS Anakin trap of beliving that everyone should bend to him just because he has power, rather than actually working for respect. No, I can't fit Midi-chlorians into my theory.

Somebody else mentioned that no one except Qui-gon ever talked about midi-chlorians.  Their theory was basically that Qui-gon is that guy at the office who's decent and really good at his job, but also believes some wacky bullshit like Ancient Aliens, chem-trails or the hollow earth theory.

Figure once Qui-gon was bisected by Darth Maul, even Yoda was like "Sad I am that Qui-gon has left us.  Sad I am not to end talk of midi-chlorians.  Sick of that silly bullshit I have become."

Anakin heard Yoda talk about midi-chlorians and then asked Qui-Gon about it. Also Obi-Wan mentioned it when he was scanning Anakin's blood. And then Palpatine talks about in ROTS so you can't just put it all as one person's crackpot theory.

Just because Anakin had a high midi-chlorian count it didn't mean he had all his powers or skills. He still needed to be trained. The problem people had with Rey is she was able to do Jedi mind tricks with no training at all.

The only explanation is that she's not just Force-sensitive, she's a prodigy. Other people have the ability to be great composers or musicians but they need to study for years to become so but for people like Mozart or Picasso it came very more naturally easily even at a young age.

Edited December 23, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, doram said:

I don't think Anakin was ever an innocent schoolboy. When we first meet him is a 9-year-old slave with a bomb in his chest. There isn't much room for "innocence" there. So this 9-year old kid with emotional baggage and PTSD is taken to an Order of space monks who tell him that all natural affection and attachment is wrong, and will make him evil. Not the best recipe for emotional maturity. 

I think you kind of get, and still somehow miss the point.

I really wish Phantom Menace had done a better job of portraying Anakin that way. Maybe if Lucas had spent more time developing his character and less time with Jar Jar...

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Anakin heard Yoda talk about midi-chlorians and then asked Qui-Gon about it. Also Obi-Wan mentioned it when he was scanning Anakin's blood. And then Palpatine talks about in ROTS so you can't just put it all as one person's crackpot theory.

Fine.  It's one of those things where otherwise really smart people are just wrong.  Midi-chrlorians are the Jedi/Sith version of Aether theory or Humorism.

[spiderpig]

I'm posting without reading any previous comments.

We saw the movie in 3D at the Greatest Movie Palace in the Western World - The Grand Lake in Oakland.  We were armed with two huge bags of fresh-made popcorn with real butter.

The theater has a real velvet curtain with a scrim for dramatic effect.

We absolutely loved it, and I cried every time Carrie Fisher was onscreen.  Wise, galaxy-weary Luke was awesome.  I want a Porg.

That's my critique, and I'm ready to purchase the video.  Especially since I will be able to pause and check for Gary Fisher in the casino scene.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Anakin heard Yoda talk about midi-chlorians and then asked Qui-Gon about it. Also Obi-Wan mentioned it when he was scanning Anakin's blood. And then Palpatine talks about in ROTS so you can't just put it all as one person's crackpot theory.

Fine.  It's one of those things where otherwise really smart people are just wrong.  Midi-chrlorians are the Jedi/Sith version of Aether theory or Humorism.

I think Lucas based it more on Symbiogenesis or "endosymbiotic theory"

Quote

A theory suggesting that the organelles such as mitochondria and chloroplasts within the eukaryotic cell came about as a result of the early endosymbiosis between prokaryotic endosymbionts and eukaryotic host cell

[Terrafamilia]

My trepidation with this movie started with the opening crawl. So the First Order was now all but totally triumphant and the Resistance/Rebellion whittled down and running on fumes? I was immediately Wait WHAT? When did this happen? It was a thoroughly unearned plot development. Then we had ample evidence that the FO knew nothing about battle tactics. The big dreadnought was getting its guns blown up and the bombers were closing in and all those other star destroyers did absolutely nothing but sit there and watch. That alone makes their authorially declared success incoherent. Then they had Finn wonder around in the plastic suit spewing fluid everywhere and I did a mental facepalm on his behalf.

Off course, there were the by-the-numbers Star Wars tropes. The adorable critters designed to make the kids want one for Christmas (Cha-CHING!) and the requisite high-speed spaceship chase through ridiculously tight confines (yawn at this point). The questionable physics, even for a soft sci-fi franchise - why was the blaster fire from Snoke's ship onto the rebels' ships following shallow ballistic arcs rather than going straight when they were in deep space?

I did like Rey more in this one than in the first. She didn't come across as something of a Mary Sue here. And I approve of her not being related to any established character or family line. I hope they keep that. I liked her and Finn's reunion. I never got a shipping vibe from them and like them as friends. I do hope TPTB aren't going use that as an opportunity to throw her into Poe's arms (not that I dislike Poe or anything) or create some sort of boring triangle. The declaration of love from Rose to Finn was too abrupt as to strain credulity. Holdo's big damn hero moment was great but I kept wanting my vice-admirals to be in uniform when in command rather than traipsing around in evening dresses (unless that is the usual rebel vice-admiral uniform). Leia gets a pass, not only is she a princess she was assuming the Mon Mothma role instead of just being General Organa. And when Luke says he's going to give Ren three lessons I expect to see three lessons.

All in all a mixed bag. It had its moments but not enough for me to be really looking forward to the next movie, unlike Rogue One. At least we still have the rest of Star Wars: Rebels.

[Terrafamilia]

The problem with midichlorians was that they "solved" a problem that really wasn't a problem in the first place. Instead of people magically interacting with the force you now had midichlorians magically interacting with both people and the force. It wasn't any more "scientific" or less "mystical" than before. Plus, it opened a potential can of worms. Why haven't they come up with midichlorian injections or the like to supercharge one's force ability like the telekinesis providing kironide injections in Star Trek's "Plato's Stepchildren" that were never mentioned again.

[Zuleikha]

So the First Order was now all but totally triumphant and the Resistance/Rebellion whittled down and running on fumes? I was immediately Wait WHAT? When did this happen? It was a thoroughly unearned plot development.

Yes! I had the exact same issue. To me, it really seemed like Rian Johnson misread the shooting script he used to get his ideas for The Last Jedi. The weird thing about it is that it didn't even really matter. For what he wanted, he didn't need to make it the First Order stalking the complete Resistance. It really just needed to be the characters we care about, justified by Leia's and Finn's presence (maybe Poe, too). Nothing was gained by making the stakes so ridiculously and unearnedly high.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I think Lucas based it more on Symbiogenesis or "endosymbiotic theory"

Maybe he did, but so what?  My point is that Aether Theory and Humorism were scientific concepts that were widely accepted in their time that have since been shown to be wrong to the point of crackpottery.  That the reason midi-chlorians haven't been mentioned since Revenge of the Sith is that both the Jedi and the Sith have realized that the concept is utterly, absurdly wrong and no one says anything about it for fear of being roundly and openly mocked as an idiot.

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

It really just needed to be the characters we care about, justified by Leia's and Finn's presence (maybe Poe, too). Nothing was gained by making the stakes so ridiculously and unearnedly high.

I could believe the Resistance's situation - if I had more information than a couple movies worth of crawling credits.  As much as I liked Rogue One, it filled in a story I pretty much already knew.  It was nice to meet the characters and get a bit more background about the maneuverings just prior to A New Hope,  but it wasn't really necessary.  I kind of wish that instead of Rogue One and perhaps even The Force Awakens that we'd gotten maybe Rise of The First Order and/or The Exile of Luke Skywalker to really set the stage and let us understand what the fuck happened with The New Republic, The Empire and the rest to bring the galaxy to this state.  The vague, apparently wrong impression that I got was that The New Republic and The Empire still existed on some level and were still kind of coldly hostile with The Resistance and The First Order beings the more extreme elements willing to fight. 

I will note the the Star Wars Galaxy seems much, much smaller than it used to be.  The Empire and the Old Republic before it was supposedly composed of thousands of systems spread over most of the galaxy.  A huge area requiring, in the Empire's time, an utterly massive military to subject.  Now it seems like everything has shrunk for both sides.  The Resistance had four ships and some fighters.  Presumably the fleet Snoke brought represent the bulk of the First Order's forces.  Maybe in the aftermath of Return of the Jedi A few systems restablished the idea of the republic while other systems clung to the idea of The Empire and the rest of the galaxy declared independence and told both sides to go fuck off and leave them alone.

[Zuleikha]

This is where I think working from script instead of the released movie may have hurt Rian Johnson. The novelization has a political storyline written for the First Awakens involving Leia's diplomat (Korr Sella, the character portrayed by Masie Richardson who is only seen in an extended close up during the destruction of the Hosnian system) trying to convince the New Republic to formally back the Resistance. Presumably this was from the original script (I remember reading that it definitely was, but a quick Google couldn't confirm that). Without that storyline, the whole New Republic/Resistance/First Order relationship is very unclear. Although even with it, I still don't buy that the destruction of the Hosnian system was enough to place the entire New Republic under the First Order's thumb because I don't think that makes any sense or that TFA portrayed the destruction as that devastating. I also don't think the complete Resistance would have been in a single location because again, that doesn't make any sense. The New Republic may be falling into chaos, but that's different from it being controlled by the First Order.

[Browncoat]

Of course it’s all smaller.  The Empire and the First Order keep blowing up planets and even entire solar systems!

[VCRTracking]

19 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

This is where I think working from script instead of the released movie may have hurt Rian Johnson. The novelization has a political storyline written for the First Awakens involving Leia's diplomat (Korr Sella, the character portrayed by Masie Richardson who is only seen in an extended close up during the destruction of the Hosnian system) trying to convince the New Republic to formally back the Resistance. Presumably this was from the original script (I remember reading that it definitely was, but a quick Google couldn't confirm that). Without that storyline, the whole New Republic/Resistance/First Order relationship is very unclear. Although even with it, I still don't buy that the destruction of the Hosnian system was enough to place the entire New Republic under the First Order's thumb because I don't think that makes any sense or that TFA portrayed the destruction as that devastating. I also don't think the complete Resistance would have been in a single location because again, that doesn't make any sense. The New Republic may be falling into chaos, but that's different from it being controlled by the First Order.

Even though like the First Order the Galactic Empire was based a lot on Nazi Germany the war between them and the Rebel Alliance wasn't like World War II. It's more like if when Rome became an Empire there had a rebellion trying to restore the Republic. There obviously Where they are at the end of The Last Jedi seems more like the small Resistance being like England, the last hope of resistance while Germany had conquered most of Europe.

 

21 hours ago, johntfs said:

Maybe he did, but so what?  My point is that Aether Theory and Humorism were scientific concepts that were widely accepted in their time that have since been shown to be wrong to the point of crackpottery.  That the reason midi-chlorians haven't been mentioned since Revenge of the Sith is that both the Jedi and the Sith have realized that the concept is utterly, absurdly wrong and no one says anything about it for fear of being roundly and openly mocked as an idiot.

There's no reason I can think of them to be mentioned in the other movies. Like how many gardeners ever say the word "chloroplast" in their daily lives?

ETA: Okay this tweet made me laugh:

Edited December 25, 2017 by VCRTracking

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

There's no reason I can think of them to be mentioned in the other movies. Like how many gardeners ever say the word "chloroplast" in their daily lives?

"Rey, your midi-chlorian level is as high as as Ben's was.  I didn't fear it enough then, I do now."

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

There's no reason I can think of them to be mentioned in the other movies. Like how many gardeners ever say the word "chloroplast" in their daily lives?

"Rey, your midi-chlorian level is as high as as Ben's was.  I didn't fear it enough then, I do now."

Luke wasn't taking babies from their parents for his Jedi school as far as we know. If he did I don't think his pitch would be "Trust me I can sense the Force in him/her."

35 minutes ago, doram said:

Did he test Rey's midichlorian levels?

He just took her for her word she has the Force.

[JessePinkman]

I don’t have much to say about the themes or intentions behind this movie. I just know I left TFA feeling really good and I left this feeling like...I’d watched a movie. I wasn’t upset but I felt manipulated somehow? I can’t explain. It just felt largely inauthentic. Which is sad because I loved TFA so much, particularly the Rey/Finn relationship (romantic, platonic, I don’t care). They were the heart of the last movie and had exactly one scene together in this one and that disappointed me.

[Perfect Xero]

I've been rather ambivalent about Rey's heritage since TFA, didn't strongly care if she was a Skywalker or not and would have been fine with her being a "nobody".

So, it's weird how I came out of this movie thinking that it would have worked much better if she was a Skywalker.

As it stands Rey spends most of this movie trying to save the virtual stranger who kidnapped and tortured her, murdered his father/her mentor right in front of her, and then put her friend into a coma that, as far as Rey knows, Finn hasn't awaken from.

If Luke starts out the movie telling her that he's her father or her uncle, or, heck, if Kylo lies to her and convinces her that Luke or Han/Leia is her parent, then her sudden interest in saving Ben would have worked a lot better IMO.

[johntfs]

20 hours ago, doram said:

Did he test Rey's midichlorian levels?

No, because midi-chlorians were a silly idea from the prequels that was best forgotten, like double-bladed light-sabers, asthmatic droids and Jar-Jar Binks.

19 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

He just took her for her word she has the Force.

Well, she had just mentioned that she'd seen his hidey hole and the tree in dreams, which is kind of a "Forcey" thing to do.

 

9 hours ago, doram said:

Johnson felt a romantic motive worked better than a familial one.

Except for being annoyed at her own reaction to his shirtless hawtness, I didn't really sense much of a romantic motive from either of them.  Rey wanted him to turn to have another really powerful Force-user to go against Snoke and the First Order (and she actually got part of that wish granted).  Kylo was more just an angry little boy who was desperately lonely because he'd killed or tried to kill everyone else in his life who loved him.  He saw Rey as a companion in the Force, whether she was a sister, lover, student, friend or some clot of all those things.  He just wanted someone to love/control who would love him, the exact nature of that love was mostly irrelevant to him at that stage.

Granted that if either of them actually had turned, I could see their relationship progressing to a romantic one, but it wasn't really one at this point.

As for Finn, I don't think Rey's as into him romantically as he is into her that way.  She clearly likes him and sees him as a friend, but I don't know that she sees him as a "boy" friend yet.  Ironically, that's pretty much the same dynamic he has with Rose, only the genders are swapped.

Edited December 25, 2017 by johntfs

[raven]

I watched this for the second time the other day and Rey doesn't think she can turn Kylo until Luke tells her what happened at the Jedi school.

I viewed it as her would-be mentor telling her what he considered a failure - and showing his angry reaction when he saw the force-vision of the two of them - solidifying her belief that since Kylo was once good, good was still there in him and she could bring it out.   Luke had told her that a Jedi turned Vader to the dark side and she retorts with "it was a Jedi who saved him".

So for me, knowing who she is from the first movie, I can believe that she would be so confident to think that she can bring Kylo back.  Kylo told her he didn't kill Han because he hated Han but because he had to let go of the past to be who he is supposed to be.  In Rey's mind, Kylo has been turned/is deluded about who he is supposed to be (just as he is about her) and she is sure she can succeed in showing him this.  Both of them are wrong.

Picked up on some details - I didn't remember that when Rey leaves Chewie to go to Snoke's ship, she arranges a rendezvous point with him.  Then when Hux finds Kylo, Kylo tells him that she took Snoke's shuttle. 

I also appreciated Domhnall Gleason's performance more - yes, he comes off as a doof with Poe in the beginning, but he also got back in Snoke's good graces by tracking the fleet through hyperspace.  I think there's a good mix of threat and sibling rivalry going on, at least until Kylo killed Snoke.   I laughed again at "Do you think you got him?" when Kylo is ordering everyone to shoot at projection Luke. 

On first viewing I thought Kylo was telling Rey the truth about her parents and now I'm not so sure.  He could easily be lying, thinking he is telling her the worst thing to get her to turn. 

I felt the loss of Carrie Fisher more.  It's obvious at the end that there were plans for her in the third one and I liked the obvious friendship she had with Laura Dern's character. LD's actions in not telling the demoted Poe what was going on also made more sense - he didn't need to know, he was supposed to be following orders.  

I also read that Carrie changed a couple of her lines, one of them being with Laura when they say goodbye.   I couldn't spot Gary Fisher in the casino and I read that George Lucas pops up but I didn't spot him either.

I still think the Casino stuff went on too long and wish they had a better, more integrated story for Finn and Rose.  I can see how Poe grew - when Luke walks outside to confront Kylo, Finn wants to rush out and back him up and Poe is the one who stops and says that Luke is giving them time to find a way out.  I hope there's more cohesiveness for everyone in the third movie.

On second viewing I still love it and can overlook my nitpicks. 

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, raven said:

LD's actions in not telling the demoted Poe what was going on also made more sense - he didn't need to know, he was supposed to be following orders.  

True, but your standard "obey your superior without question" soldier wouldn't be a part of the Resistance in the first place.  She had (correctly) pegged him as a maverick flyboy and she had to know he considered her actions to be de facto suicide.  At the very least make sure there are a couple of people keeping an eye on the loose cannon.

I half expected Leia to knock out Laura Dern, shove her into the escape transport, and go down with the ship.  You can tell that episode IX was going to be her spotlight, just as VII was Han's and VIII was Luke's.  It's a shame she'll just be an off screen presence who won't get the chance to confront her son face to face.

[raven]

21 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

True, but your standard "obey your superior without question" soldier wouldn't be a part of the Resistance in the first place. 

Holdo seemed to have a different command presence than Leia and wasn't familiar with Poe - all she knew was he was demoted by someone that she respected.  My head theory is she only didn't throw him in the brig because 1) Leia didn't and 2) they needed him in some capacity.   They were probably stretched a bit thin to have someone babysitting him and in the moment of crisis, Holdo expected him to work with her in the command structure to keep everyone alive, especially considering how many lives his last actions cost.

Quote

I half expected Leia to knock out Laura Dern, shove her into the escape transport, and go down with the ship.  You can tell that episode IX was going to be her spotlight, just as VII was Han's and VIII was Luke's.  It's a shame she'll just be an off screen presence who won't get the chance to confront her son face to face.

ITA.  I had to keep reminding myself that we weren't going to see Leia sacrificing herself to save everyone.  IX would have been a Resistance rebuild with her in the lead, passing it to the new generation - we see a brief start to this, when Poe is urging everyone to follow the ice foxes and everyone looks at Leia and she says "you heard him, go that way".

[johntfs]

23 hours ago, doram said:

The way I see it, as long as world-building doesn't contradict anything that came before and/or make no sense, then it's world-building. I don't see how midi-chlorians and Maul's blade are any better or worse than Leia space-walking and Kylo's triple-bladed light saber. 

Midi-Chlorians bring the Force down from a mystical/religious experience to a biological/genetic one.  Presumably one of the rooms in a Jedi temple was the "whack-off chamber" to collect Jedi sperm and breed the next generation since they weren't allowed to fuck.  Maul's saber was a fan-boy thing.  "Oh yeah, well my pretend lightsaber has blades coming out of both ends."  And it inevitably lead to General Grievous and that absurd six-bladed thing he had.  Kylo's blade wasn't "triple-bladed."  It had a single blade with a guard made from blade energy, which is actually a practical improvement that prevents someone from simply sliding their saber down his to cut his hands off.  Leia's "space flght" was absolutely crap, though, you're right about that.

 

23 hours ago, doram said:

I think the boldened is a better read on the point you're making. Because the reylo romantic/sexual dynamic was annoying... it should be ignored. Look everyone's entitled to their personal canon. In my personal canon, Luke Skywalker wasn't a failure; Han and Leia didn't birth a school-shooter who murdered Han Solo. But if we're going to discuss the movie on common ground, we can't just pretend the parts of the story that we don't like didn't happen.

No, but we're certainly free to disagree on the interpretations of what did  happen.  I believe that a strong connection between Rey and Kylo formed, but I believe the ultimate nature of that connection had yet to be determined, that it wasn't automatically once of lovers or siblings or what-have-you.  I think there was a kind of love or at least desire on both their parts, but not, or  not yet a romantic one.  Rey saw Kylo as someone so deceived and manipulated by Snoke that he killed his own father and she hoped to lead him out of that terrible darkness and by the by also gain the Resistance a potent ally against Snoke and the First Order. 

Kylo saw Rey as someone who at last wouldn't have a list of expectations for him to meet.  It probably sucked for him just a little bit growing up.  His parents were General Han Solo and Princess/Senator Leia Organa.  They likely expected him to play a vital role in The New Republic.  Luke Skywalker was his uncle.  After he saw how strong in the force Kylo was, Luke expected him to be a good version of Anakin, a way to help make up for Palpatine and Darth Vader.  Snoke expected him to be the champion of the Dark Side, the weapon that would slay Luke Skywalker and destroy the New Republic and the Resistance once of for all.  Rey is a girl from nothing and nowhere who had shitty parents who abandoned her and sold her into slavery.  She has no grand, galaxy-spanning plans for Kylo.  As far as he's concerned, for her all he has to do is exist.

While romance could potentially have eventually occurred between Rey and Kylo it wasn't there right then.  And won't be there now since each of them has made the choice about where they stand.  Their strong connection will be that of enemies.
 

Edited December 26, 2017 by johntfs