History Talk: The Victorian Era

[Notwisconsin]

On 2/22/2018 at 9:47 PM, BusyOctober said:

I felt bad, but, come on, really?  Part of me felt like telling her, “By the way, Lincoln gets shot & the Titanic sinks.”

Back in the wild west days of the internet, there was a really heated discussion about whether or not the Titanic sinking was a spoiler for the 1997 movie. This was before the term "spoiler" entered the common language. I remember it well.....

[Driad]

Someone suggested that the sinking of the Titanic could be a series, since there were so many people on board.  Each week, viewers would get to know some of the passengers and/or crew.  At the end of the hour, sink the ship and see whether they survive.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

Back in the wild west days of the internet, there was a really heated discussion about whether or not the Titanic sinking was a spoiler for the 1997 movie.

I can remember watching a 60 Minutes piece on the movie, and they interviewed Dick Wolf (L&O, etc.), and he was saying how his daughter and her friends had seen the movie multiple times, and when he asked her why, when she knew how the movie ended, she said something along the lines of hoping the next time would be when Jack survived. Not that that part of the story was accurate, but sometimes you don't want the truth to be true.

Remember when Titanic was running way over budget and everyone said it was going to be the next Heaven's Gate?

[Evil Queen]

On 2/20/2018 at 8:22 PM, Kohola3 said:

I read the history thread just out of curiosity for some things.  I don't care that the history doesn't match the series but I do enjoy history in general.

Not to be argumentative but if the lack of accuracy is so distressing, why watch it? 

I actually won't watch any future seasons of this show. After what was not truly shown in how the Irish famine was handled, that did it for me with the show. Making her look like she had sympathy for them when really she couldn't have cared less to just keep the fantasy of who she was up was NOT ok. IMO there are some things that have happened in history that you don't try to change what went on and how it really was being handled. Like I said if things were just tweaked here and there it wouldn't be a big issue but when its stretching the REAL history to fit a fantasy world from from the truth that is another story for me. So yes, I will be out for any future shows/seasons. 

[Meredith Quill]

Someone I know who lives in the states was surprised to hear that France had a revolution and subsequently no longer has a monarchy. Marie who? This was complete new information to them and this person isn't a youngster or daft.

It's surprising what historical events different people are unaware of.

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

It's surprising what historical events different people are unaware of.

Have you looked at a high school history book lately?  It's appalling that our kids are not even being taught American history let along what has happened in the rest of the world.  And what they retain is even worse.

I was at a fundraiser for Honor Flight (we took WWII vets to see their WWII Memorial in Washington DC for free - that memorial wasn't built until 62 years after the war ended and many couldn't afford to go) and a 20 something guy approached me.  He said to me "Refresh my memory - who did we fight in WWII?  And was that before or after Vietnam?"  Sweet Jesus! 

[Meredith Quill]

28 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Have you looked at a high school history book lately?  It's appalling that our kids are not even being taught American history let along what has happened in the rest of the world.  And what they retain is even worse.

I was at a fundraiser for Honor Flight (we took WWII vets to see their WWII Memorial in Washington DC for free - that memorial wasn't built until 62 years after the war ended and many couldn't afford to go) and a 20 something guy approached me.  He said to me "Refresh my memory - who did we fight in WWII?  And was that before or after Vietnam?"  Sweet Jesus! 

I'm English and live in England so I really have no idea what is taught in US schools re world history, but I take your point. Incidentally, the person I was speaking of was/is in their late 40's/early 50's at the time. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Have you looked at a high school history book lately?  It's appalling that our kids are not even being taught American history let along what has happened in the rest of the world.  And what they retain is even worse.

When I went to school a couple decades ago all of our history books always ended when WWII ended. 

Quote

I was at a fundraiser for Honor Flight (we took WWII vets to see their WWII Memorial in Washington DC for free - that memorial wasn't built until 62 years after the war ended and many couldn't afford to go) and a 20 something guy approached me.  He said to me "Refresh my memory - who did we fight in WWII?  And was that before or after Vietnam?"  Sweet Jesus! 

 

That's terrible. I really can't figure out how he didn't know that. Forget history books there's memorials and museums all over the country about WWII. Its pretty much the only war that's talked about all the time. Its on the news, on TV, and movies. Its everywhere.    

[AZChristian]

31 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That's terrible. I really can't figure out how he didn't know that. Forget history books there's memorials and museums all over the country about WWII. Its pretty much the only war that's talked about all the time. Its on the news, on TV, and movies. Its everywhere.    

This is a generalization . . . I know that not everyone is like this . . . BUT . . . We are currently dealing with a couple of generations who learn about current events on social media.  There's not a lot of history discussion on Twitter or Instagram.  And we've probably all been walking around memorials and museums and see people who don't even look up from their phones.

You can lead a horse to water . . . 

[kassygreene]

When I went to school I'm not sure where our history books ended because every year we were lucky to make it to 1900.  One year we made it to the end of WWI, but that was because a) it was an AP class and b) my history teacher deliberately skipped the Civil War because i) we were in the South and every kid in that class knew their family's "correct" version, ii) typically history classes would spend at least a month re-living every battle, and iii) she had tenure and could re-construct the syllabus.

I knew WWII from television - Rat Patrol, Combat, Twelve O'Clock High, and many many movies (Enemy Below, The Wackiest Ship In The Army, etc).

These kids today, they know whatever is at the top of the search results and don't seem to give a damn that the top of the list is inevitably some sort of ad (and therefore someone's propaganda).

With all of that, people will often choose ignorance.  It's easier.  I like it when that choice is obvious, because then I can re-direct the investment of my own time.

I iz an old krank.

Edited February 25, 2018 by kassygreene

[dubbel zout]

History? With its "facts"? Pshaw.

[Notwisconsin]

19 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Remember when Titanic was running way over budget and everyone said it was going to be the next Heaven's Gate?

I remember when the first trailer came out in December 1996 saying that it would come out the following summer...and getting back on topic, I remember seeing some British pennies with Queen Victoria's face on them in my CHANGE.
GAWD I'm getting old.....

[Constant Viewer]

10 hours ago, AZChristian said:

We are currently dealing with a couple of generations who learn about current events on social media.  There's not a lot of history discussion on Twitter or Instagram.  And we've probably all been walking around memorials and museums and see people who don't even look up from their phones.

You can lead a horse to water . . . 

As a teacher I can say this is the biggest problem we have.  We can design elaborate projects, presentations, etc. but if the kids don't bother to try to learn, nothing gets retained.

[Kohola3]

2 minutes ago, Constant Viewer said:

As a teacher I can say this is the biggest problem we have.  We can design elaborate projects, presentations, etc. but if the kids don't bother to try to learn, nothing gets retained.

I have the utmost respect for teachers.  That has to be one of the toughest jobs on earth right now.  The constant reliance on electronics has given kids the attention span of gnats.  It would drive me insane to be locked in a room with that every day.

[CousinAmy]

Sarah Forbes was real and other true facts. http://www.thirteen.org/blog-post/victoria-season-2-episode-7-recap-finale/

[CarpeDiem54]

Thanks for the link, @CousinAmy.  That's a great recap.

[IrishPirate]

Thanks for the link, CousinAmy. Questions answered in one fell swoop!

[anyanka323]

On 2/25/2018 at 8:39 AM, Kohola3 said:

Have you looked at a high school history book lately?  It's appalling that our kids are not even being taught American history let along what has happened in the rest of the world.  And what they retain is even worse.

The only reason that my AP US history class made it past WW2 was because one of the potential DBQ topics was on the Vietnam War.  This was early 2000s, and we used a college textbook instead of a high school one.  By the time my sister took the class a couple years later, she was using a regular high school textbook and her class barely made it to the 1950s because both potential DBQ topics were in the late 19th century and early 20th century.  

[jumper sage]

On 2/25/2018 at 6:42 AM, SilverStormm said:

Someone I know who lives in the states was surprised to hear that France had a revolution and subsequently no longer has a monarchy. Marie who? This was complete new information to them and this person isn't a youngster or daft.

It's surprising what historical events different people are unaware of.

It is shocking.  Our parents made sure we knew history outside of school.  I am shocked that people still think that Marie Antoinette and King were beheaded because she said, "Let them eat cake".  She never said it and the revolution, it could be argued, happened because they emptied their coffers to support us in the revolutionary war.

In school from 5th - 10th grade we had a weekly current events discussion which included facts from history.  With the internet there really is no reason to not know something.  I don't know why schools are no longer teaching searching skills, maybe they think the kids should just know it.

Going back to the episode where V and A get lost in Scotland - I wonder if that was supposed to set up the reality of them hiring a gameskeeper and would disappear off the estate for alone time.  I know that once Albert died Victoria did this often.  If I remember correctly it was on a tiny island just off, or maybe on, the estate.

[seacliffsal]

Alright, history teacher here (AP and non-AP).  I always made sure my students cover the entire curriculum, write numerous essays, and participate in learning activities that promote critical thinking (which is why their passing rates are so high [fyi-the AP U.S. History Exam no longer provides a 50-year window for the DBQ; Euro never did]).  However, parents and administrators fought me on almost every step (well, when I was 'new'-it happens much less often these days due to many reasons) because the class was too "hard."  As a society, many people have devalued education and especially social studies as they aren't STEM.  However, it is the study of humans and human interactions, and the present makes so much more sense when the past is studied and remembered.  But, we certainly can't expect our students to have to do homework or, you know, learn something when there are sports and other extracurricular activities that must be prioritized (there is deep sarcasm here).  Every year I have students who will ask me why they never learned many of the facts of history or politics before and I tell them it's because people want simplified history and politics due to ignoring the complexities of these subjects (and, no, the Tea Act of 1773 did not place a tax on tea-tea was taxed as part of the Townshend Act...).  Although I am watching Victoria, and other historical dramas, it does bother me tremendously the liberties they are taking with facts.  There is so much real drama in historical events and historical individuals that it always amazes me that many t.v. shows and movies think they have to add manufactured drama to interest viewers.  

Therefore, I hope they show the complexities of Victoria's rule and with her marriage and family life.  It seems that the show is romanticizing much of her life and trying to place her on the "right" side of history.  Many people will watch shows like this and absorb the portrayals as fact.

[Kohola3]

3 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

However, it is the study of humans and human interactions, and the present makes so much more sense when the past is studied and remembered.

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” - Edmund Burke

[Evil Queen]

On 2/25/2018 at 3:42 AM, SilverStormm said:

Someone I know who lives in the states was surprised to hear that France had a revolution and subsequently no longer has a monarchy. Marie who? This was complete new information to them and this person isn't a youngster or daft.

It's surprising what historical events different people are unaware of.

On 2/25/2018 at 6:39 AM, Kohola3 said:

Have you looked at a high school history book lately?  It's appalling that our kids are not even being taught American history let along what has happened in the rest of the world.  And what they retain is even worse.

I was at a fundraiser for Honor Flight (we took WWII vets to see their WWII Memorial in Washington DC for free - that memorial wasn't built until 62 years after the war ended and many couldn't afford to go) and a 20 something guy approached me.  He said to me "Refresh my memory - who did we fight in WWII?  And was that before or after Vietnam?"  Sweet Jesus! 

It all comes down to each person. This shows it by the fact of the age of these people. You have one that is older not aware of one thing and a younger one not of something else. The thing is not all people are into history or they might not be into certain kinds. Or they may get into it as they get older too. I wasn't into all of history in school. There is plenty that if you ask me about it I have no clue. I have to go over a lot of stuff with my daughter right now in 6th grade. Stuff I still find boring but don't let on and she really finds boring.  She is my homeschooled kid. I know from my sons going through school that it is all the same as she has now. 4th grade comes they are taught about our state history. 5th grade comes and its more on main points of American history. 6th grade is about Ancient Egypt. Early India, Early China, Americas, Greeks and so on. My younger son remembers all this stuff. He has seen me watch Victoria and he was asking about something and if it was her. He was off on queens but he pretty much is like I am where if it interests me I remember it. If it doesn't its in one ear and out the other. LOL Just like anyone else. Right now he has world history in 10th grade. 

 

On 2/25/2018 at 9:46 AM, kassygreene said:

These kids today, they know whatever is at the top of the search results and don't seem to give a damn that the top of the list is inevitably some sort of ad (and therefore someone's propaganda).

Sorry but this is not true. Talk to most and you might be surprised what they know. My kids know a lot more then what people make them sound like they would. Not all kids are stuck in their phones and such. Like I said above everyone is different with how they learn things too and what they remember being taught or decide to seek out more info on. 

 

On 2/25/2018 at 7:22 PM, Constant Viewer said:

As a teacher I can say this is the biggest problem we have.  We can design elaborate projects, presentations, etc. but if the kids don't bother to try to learn, nothing gets retained.

Exactly!!! This is not something new either with kids. Every single one of us could probably admit to not liking certain subjects and retaining things from it. Just as our parents and grandparents could have and our kids and their future kids. Some things also click easier for some then others depending on subject and are enjoyed more. Some do what they have to just to get by. Yet nothing new. 

9 hours ago, anyanka323 said:

The only reason that my AP US history class made it past WW2 was because one of the potential DBQ topics was on the Vietnam War.  This was early 2000s, and we used a college textbook instead of a high school one.  By the time my sister took the class a couple years later, she was using a regular high school textbook and her class barely made it to the 1950s because both potential DBQ topics were in the late 19th century and early 20th century.  

From what I got told recently by a girl in her early 20s, I want to say, was that all the stuff she did in her first year of college was basically what she did in high school. All classes are basically college prep/AP prep and so on. Nothing is lower then a college prep type class nowadays. At least where I live. I would have to ask my son about what he learned last semester in history class and if I think about it will grab his World History book tomorrow and look through it more to see what he has to look forward to in it this semester. 

Btw, as far as I have ever seen our schools go chapter by chapter. I know we have to doing it at home. There is no skipping because we have a set schedule to go by. I've never seen my boys have to skip chapters. Heck I don't remember ever doing so either in our books like that. Interesting how the Civil War was skipped because of where one lived. LOL I remember our US History teacher in high school made it interesting. He even got a guy to come in to the class that collected things from that time and had reenactment uniforms. That was probably one of the best teachers I had in high school though. Where I live they do reenactment every year on Labor Day weekend. They just did a Revolutionary War one a couple weekends ago. BTW, I am on the west coast in the US. With my doing our families genealogy it helps bring a little more history into their lives too since we have family that fought in different wars going back pretty far and can bring things like that or the Irish famine history into their lives. 

[AirQuotes]

15 hours ago, jumper sage said:

It is shocking.  Our parents made sure we knew history outside of school.  I am shocked that people still think that Marie Antoinette and King were beheaded because she said, "Let them eat cake".  She never said it and the revolution, it could be argued, happened because they emptied their coffers to support us in the revolutionary war.

In school from 5th - 10th grade we had a weekly current events discussion which included facts from history.  With the internet there really is no reason to not know something.  I don't know why schools are no longer teaching searching skills, maybe they think the kids should just know it.

Going back to the episode where V and A get lost in Scotland - I wonder if that was supposed to set up the reality of them hiring a gameskeeper and would disappear off the estate for alone time.  I know that once Albert died Victoria did this often.  If I remember correctly it was on a tiny island just off, or maybe on, the estate.

I agree with you that so many people don't even try to research a topic.  The internet is full of so much misinformation that it can be difficult to sort through all the information and decipher accurate from inaccurate; especially when you are trying to learn about a topic.  Don't even get me started on the lies and falsehoods spread on facebook!

We love the library, and I still appreciate hard copy books.  We still rely on books for information and it is information that I trust.  Even my 3 year old knows to ask for library books about topics he is interested in (currently he has a stack of NF elementary level monster truck books).

[jumper sage]

3 hours ago, AirQuotes said:

I agree with you that so many people don't even try to research a topic.  The internet is full of so much misinformation that it can be difficult to sort through all the information and decipher accurate from inaccurate; especially when you are trying to learn about a topic.  Don't even get me started on the lies and falsehoods spread on facebook!

We love the library, and I still appreciate hard copy books.  We still rely on books for information and it is information that I trust.  Even my 3 year old knows to ask for library books about topics he is interested in (currently he has a stack of NF elementary level monster truck books).

So much love for your quote.  In the past, maybe 10 years ago, the kids would get lessons on searching and being able to identify websites by .com/.org/.edu etc.  Strategically placed words in a search was also key.  I have noticed in the past couple of years that even high school kids don't know how to cut/paste and have no idea between .com/.org/.edu.

I have retired from a full time job at the library where I worked in children's and family services for 20 - 25 years.  I know fill in and am out at public schools.  I do know that parents that read have children that read and family literacy is a real thing.  Family literacy would include library skills and I too have seen many children pantomime their requests.  I will take that over someone asking for a book that had a white cover.

I recently had a question from a corporate librarian on if Victoria sent a collection to the worlds fair - I believe it was In Chicago in 1851.  She could not find much but being a public librarian I knew to go to Google UK and found the exact link in a few minutes.  It was not really must interest to Americans at that time but was recorded in the UK of her exhibits which included many home arts.

[AirQuotes]

2 hours ago, jumper sage said:

So much love for your quote.  In the past, maybe 10 years ago, the kids would get lessons on searching and being able to identify websites by .com/.org/.edu etc.  Strategically placed words in a search was also key.  I have noticed in the past couple of years that even high school kids don't know how to cut/paste and have no idea between .com/.org/.edu.

I have retired from a full time job at the library where I worked in children's and family services for 20 - 25 years.  I know fill in and am out at public schools.  I do know that parents that read have children that read and family literacy is a real thing.  Family literacy would include library skills and I too have seen many children pantomime their requests.  I will take that over someone asking for a book that had a white cover.

I recently had a question from a corporate librarian on if Victoria sent a collection to the worlds fair - I believe it was In Chicago in 1851.  She could not find much but being a public librarian I knew to go to Google UK and found the exact link in a few minutes.  It was not really must interest to Americans at that time but was recorded in the UK of her exhibits which included many home arts.

I knew I must like you so much for a reason!  :)  I'm not a librarian but librarians are my people!  When we travel, we seek out libraries!   In our parish, the main library has evening lectures on various topics given by the local university professors, and my 12 year old keeps up with the calendar online.  I take her when a topic interests her and she requests to go.

Currently, I'm on a Queen Victoria kick (wondery why? lol), and I've been reading as many books on her as I can get my hands on.  A few years ago we toured Buckingham Palace and it is very much *her* palace.  She without a doubt left her mark on the place.  The current show is just a bonus to bring it all to life and add another dimension.

[floridamom]

Does anyone know when the 3rd season will begin? We waited such a long time for this season. I don't want to wait more than  6 months for the third season.

[jumper sage]

6 hours ago, AirQuotes said:

I've been reading as many books on her as I can get my hands on.  A few years ago we toured Buckingham Palace and it is very much *her* palace.

Me too!  I am now delving into her children's bios.  I envy you the trip to Buckingham Palace.  If you can catch "The Queen's Garden" on PBS it is a must see.  Not only do we get the day-to-day operations of the gardeners but we see a lot of history as well.  I don't know if they actually mention the statues of Albert but they are shown.

Please pardon my typos in my last post as it was very late.

[dubbel zout]

6 minutes ago, jumper sage said:

I am now delving into her children's bios.

Victoria's Daughters, by Jerrold Packard is very readable, if kind of depressing. Victoria really took out her widowhood on her younger daughters.

[anyanka323]

1 hour ago, jumper sage said:

Me too!  I am now delving into her children's bios. 

Queen Victoria's Matchmaking by Deborah Cadbury, published earlier this year, is a really good read.  It focuses more on the grandkids and their spouses, especially Kaiser Wilhelm, who seems to be the Joffrey Baratheon of her extended family, who did everything he could to upset his mother Vicky, Tsarina Alexandra, Alice's middle daughter, who was more like Cersei Lannister in that she thought she was more intelligent than she actually was and she paid the price for her decisions, and Queen Mary, the grandmother of Elizabeth II, who was very poor cousin of Victoria and helped make some wise and very crucial decisions that ended up creating the monarchy as we know it today.  The most key decision was with her husband George V to anglicize the royal house name to Windsor.  She was also the last queen to be of German birth. 

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, anyanka323 said:

Kaiser Wilhelm, who seems to be the Joffrey Baratheon of her extended family, who did everything he could to upset his mother Vicky

He was such a little shit! His parents weren't blameless, but I think his withered arm gave him a real chip on his shoulder, and he took it out on Vicky, especially. He did not show much compassion to her after Frederick died or when she became ill with cancer.

[Brn2bwild]

11 hours ago, anyanka323 said:

Queen Victoria's Matchmaking by Deborah Cadbury, published earlier this year, is a really good read.  It focuses more on the grandkids and their spouses, especially Kaiser Wilhelm, who seems to be the Joffrey Baratheon of her extended family, who did everything he could to upset his mother Vicky, Tsarina Alexandra, Alice's middle daughter, who was more like Cersei Lannister in that she thought she was more intelligent than she actually was and she paid the price for her decisions, and Queen Mary, the grandmother of Elizabeth II, who was very poor cousin of Victoria and helped make some wise and very crucial decisions that ended up creating the monarchy as we know it today.  The most key decision was with her husband George V to anglicize the royal house name to Windsor.  She was also the last queen to be of German birth. 

I actually have real sympathy for Alix (Alice's second-youngest daughter, who became the youngest when her sister Marie died).  She was placed in an impossible situation.  She fell in love with Nicholas and became engaged to him, only for him to suddenly become the Tsar soon before they were to marry.  Instead of getting to ease into that culture and world gradually, she was plunged in and forced into the spotlight.  Nicholas was rather weak, and she spent a lot of time trying to bolster him.  She was also painfully shy and prone to melancholy (like her mother and like her grandfather Albert), which made her unpopular with the noble class, which then took to spreading vicious rumors.

Like Marie Antoinette, a lot of what they say about Empress Alexandra is also untrue.

[anyanka323]

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I actually have real sympathy for Alix (Alice's second-youngest daughter, who became the youngest when her sister Marie died).  She was placed in an impossible situation.  She fell in love with Nicholas and became engaged to him, only for him to suddenly become the Tsar soon before they were to marry.  Instead of getting to ease into that culture and world gradually, she was plunged in and forced into the spotlight.  Nicholas was rather weak, and she spent a lot of time trying to bolster him.  She was also painfully shy and prone to melancholy (like her mother and like her grandfather Albert), which made her unpopular with the noble class, which then took to spreading vicious rumors.

Like Marie Antoinette, a lot of what they say about Empress Alexandra is also untrue.

Both Nicholas and Alexandra were temperamentally unsuited for their roles.  If Russia had been more like Great Britain, a constitutional monarchy where the monarch was a symbolic leader and the real power was invested in the Duma, that may have suited them both better. 

The other tragedy for Alexandra was that the Russian succession barred women from the throne, a rule put in place by Paul I after the death of his mother Catherine the Great.  The quest for the male heir, their last child Alexei, led Alexandra to consult some rather shady individuals, of which Rasputin is the most infamous. 

[dubbel zout]

Alexei's hemophilia caused her a lot of guilt and anguish.

[Brn2bwild]

57 minutes ago, anyanka323 said:

Both Nicholas and Alexandra were temperamentally unsuited for their roles.  If Russia had been more like Great Britain, a constitutional monarchy where the monarch was a symbolic leader and the real power was invested in the Duma, that may have suited them both better. 

The other tragedy for Alexandra was that the Russian succession barred women from the throne, a rule put in place by Paul I after the death of his mother Catherine the Great.  The quest for the male heir, their last child Alexei, led Alexandra to consult some rather shady individuals, of which Rasputin is the most infamous. 

I wonder if anyone would have ultimately succeeded in that role.  Nicholas's grandfather was assassinated.  His uncle Sergei was blown up -- who's to say his father, Alexander III, might not have been assassinated as well had he not died prematurely of other causes?  Alix's mother-in-law, Marie Feodorovna, dazzled high society as Empress, but I don't know how the other classes viewed her.  After WWI, her popularity didn't save her -- she still ended up fleeing Russia forever.  Popularity also didn't stop Alix's older sister, Elisabeth, from being murdered by Bolsheviks. 

46 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Alexei's hemophilia caused her a lot of guilt and anguish.

Definitely.  And yet I've read that she wasn't as hung up on Rasputin as many sources claim.

To bring this back to Victoria herself, a lot of people think that the hemophilia came about because she and Albert were first cousins.  I read, though, (wish I remembered where) that it was caused by a mutant gene from one of her parents, probably her father.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Brn2bwild

[Driad]

20 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I read, though, (wish I remembered where) that it was caused by a mutant gene from one of her parents, probably her father.

Here is one article: http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/haemophilia.html

[Blergh]

On 2/27/2018 at 10:11 PM, anyanka323 said:

Queen Mary, the grandmother of Elizabeth II, who was very poor cousin of Victoria and helped make some wise and very crucial decisions that ended up creating the monarchy as we know it today.  The most key decision was with her husband George V to anglicize the royal house name to Windsor.  She was also the last queen to be of German birth. 

 Actually, while HSH Princess Mary (May) of Teck had been born to a German (barely) royal family, her mother (Princess Mary of Cambridge [AKA 'Fat Mary']) was Vic's first cousin and she herself was born in Kensington Palace in the very SAME BED as Vic had been born 48 years  +2 days earlier!   Yes, from the very brief recording I've heard her speak, she did have a slight Germanic way of pronouncing things but how much more British could one get  than being born in Vic's own bed? Somewhat like Vic herself (whom she originally called 'Aunt Queen'), she'd started out as a poor relation of the monarch in the crowded royal anthill/aunt hill   of Kensington but luckily for her, 'Aunt Queen' decided she'd be a good, stabilizing wife to her somewhat erratic heir presumptive, the doomed Edward ('Eddy'), Duke of Clarence.  He would die shortly after their engagement was announced but everyone  thought she'd be an even better choice for his stuffy younger brother the new heir presumptive, George, Duke of York!  Yes, from that point onward, she went from being the granddaughter-in-law of a queen to a queen's grandmother!

[Eri]

Prior to watching this series, I was reading one of my history books on monarchs and decided to read up on Queen Victoria just to get an idea of how accurate they'd be.  After the fallout with Lehzen, I had read that after the death of the Duchess of Kent (Victoria's mother), Victoria had sorted through her private papers left behind and concluded that her mother had in fact loved her (despite the rigid upbringing), and that Conroy and Baroness Lehzen were to blame for the breach in their relationship that had continued for so long. This sank Victoria into a deep grief which resulted in Albert taking over most of the royal duties and it took its toll as his health was already deteriorating from 1859 and was suffering from chronic stomach problems.

Naturally, I went into the show already with a distaste for Lehzen and was not sorry to see her go, but has any of the other history buffs heard of this before?
 

Quote

 

Reference:

Kings & Queens of Great Britain: Every Question Answered, The Fascinating Biographies of the British Monarchs From The House of Wessex To The House of Windsor by David Soud

 

[kwnyc]

On 2/27/2018 at 11:11 PM, anyanka323 said:

The most key decision was with her husband George V to anglicize the royal house name to Windsor.  She was also the last queen to be of German birth. 

...and herewith is my regular recommendation to watch the miniseries "The Lost Prince," which is about George V & Mary's youngest son, and the choice of the British monarchy to leave its German origins. 

[dubbel zout]

3 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

the choice of the British monarchy to leave its German origins

They saw the writing on the wall. Kaiser Wilhelm was a shit, but his crack that he wanted George to see a production of "The Merry Wives of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" is very much on point.

[Blergh]

I can't help but feel that WWI wound up being the excuse virtually every member of the Windsor family was looking for in ending their ties with the annoying Kaiser (even after he was said to have Abdicated and living in a tight exile in Holland, George V didn't so much as write him again much less visit him despite the two having virtually grown up together).

 

   OTOH, I can't help but think that Edward VII and, especially, Victoria would have been absolutely livid at George V patently refusing refuge to one of Vic's fave grandchildren and her family (the Romanovs). I mean, Vic herself had no less than TWO deposed French dynasties living in Great Britain at one time and she'd have just told anyone to 'naff off' had they dared complain about her giving refuge to a grandchild (and if the government had attempted any flak, she'd have made a   public spectacle of her disdain as she did Gladstone re Khartoum).

[dubbel zout]

39 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Victoria would have been absolutely livid at George V patently refusing refuge to one of Vic's fave grandchildren and her family (the Romanovs).

Yeah. I don't know why quietly shipping them off to a neutral country wouldn't have done it if George was so afraid to have them in England. 

[anyanka323]

9 hours ago, Blergh said:

OTOH, I can't help but think that Edward VII and, especially, Victoria would have been absolutely livid at George V patently refusing refuge to one of Vic's fave grandchildren and her family (the Romanovs). I mean, Vic herself had no less than TWO deposed French dynasties living in Great Britain at one time and she'd have just told anyone to 'naff off' had they dared complain about her giving refuge to a grandchild (and if the government had attempted any flak, she'd have made a   public spectacle of her disdain as she did Gladstone re Khartoum).

Victoria seemed to have liked certain members of the Romanov family but distrusted Russia as a country.  One of her sons, Alfred, married Grand Duchess Marie, the daughter of Alexander II.  She tried to discourage the marriage of Alix of Hesse to Nicholas II, but was unsuccessful.  Perhaps she knew that Alix wouldn't be a good fit for the Russian court.

[Blergh]

anyanka-

 

 Grand Duchess Marie wound up having an endless  . . hissing contest with Vic while Vic was easily charmed by Alix's spouse whom she called 'Dear Nicky' and, in fact, the earliest surviving known film footage of Vic was taken during an 1896 visit of the Imperial Family to Balmoral and they could be seen walking beside her as she rode  in a pony cart holding her favorite dog (and it appears that the controversial Munshi was walking behind the group). 

    Now's a good place as any to try to sort out the Alices, Alixes and Alexandras connected to Vic. Her 2nd daughter was given the old English name of  Alice . However; after she wed the Grand Duke Ludwig of Hesse (and she was given the title 'landsmutter' [literally 'mother of the nation'!]), while Alice took great satisfaction in doing good works for her new subjects, she got annoyed with them pronouncing the e at the end of her name so that it would be  'Alis-SAY'. She decided that when she named her youngest daughter for to have this avoided by having her being named Alix. Meantime, her older brother the Prince of Wales had married Princess Alexandra of Denmark but everyone in both their families called her 'Alix' as well. OK, fast forward to 1894 when Princess Alix of Hesse wed Czar Nicholas II, not only was the name of Alix completely unheard of in Russia but it wasn't the least Russian to boot so they insisted she be called 'Alexandra'. Oh and 'Dear Nicky' happened to be the Princess of Wales's nephew (and  his mother, her younger sister, had had to change HER name from the Danish Dagmar to Marie when she married Alexander III).

It also needs to be mentioned that, despite his grandmother-in-law's hostility towards his nation, Nicholas II ALWAYS spoke and wrote in English to his wife in private conversations so there would have been no language barrier had he been given refuge!

[Pallas]

On 3/1/2018 at 3:23 AM, Blergh said:

Aunt Queen' decided she'd be a good, stabilizing wife to her somewhat erratic heir presumptive, the doomed Edward ('Eddy'), Duke of Clarence.  He would die shortly after their engagement was announced but everyone  thought she'd be an even better choice for his stuffy younger brother the new heir presumptive, George, Duke of York!

Like Prince William, Eddy was the eldest son of the Prince of Wales, and therefore second in line of succession, not heir presumptive. Likewise his brother George upon Eddy's death: he became second in line of succession -- a future heir apparent -- rather than heir presumptive.

An heir presumptive is currently first in line of succession, but may be displaced from that position by the later birth of a more entitled heir. Princess Elizabeth became heir presumptive when her father became George VI, since while George lived he could conceivably sire a son who would have displaced Elizabeth in line and become heir apparent. As Duke of York, George VI was himself briefly heir presumptive throughout most of 1937, when his childless brother the Prince of Wales succeeded their father. 

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, anyanka323 said:

She tried to discourage the marriage of Alix of Hesse to Nicholas II, but was unsuccessful.  Perhaps she knew that Alix wouldn't be a good fit for the Russian court.

Or perhaps she felt a minor German princess wasn't a good enough match for the heir to the Russian throne. Or that she couldn't control Alix from that far away. Victoria was a meddler who put herself first a lot of the time when it came to her relatives' loves and lives. I'm sure she could be a great support, but she also had to have been a nightmare to deal with, whether you were a favorite or not.

[Blergh]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Or perhaps she felt a minor German princess wasn't a good enough match for the heir to the Russian throne. Or that she couldn't control Alix from that far away. Victoria was a meddler who put herself first a lot of the time when it came to her relatives' loves and lives. I'm sure she could be a great support, but she also had to have been a nightmare to deal with, whether you were a favorite or not.

The former? Not so much as Vic took great pride in her maternal side re the tiny duchy of Saxe Coburg putting themselves on every throne they could get (and Vic ALSO wanted to do the same re her own family-in the belief that her being the literal 'Grandmother of Europe' would keep everyone from fighting).

 

 The latter? Oh, yeah, Vic was DEFINITELY a meddler not just to her children and grandchildren but even uncles and aunts much older than herself whom she literally queened it over!  Not to take away from Vic's meddlesome aspect, but to be fair, I think she also recognized that her motherless granddaughter Alix  was a painfully shy and extremely soft-spoken person who could be easily overwhelmed by the extended Romanovs  and the courts- regardless of  Dear Nicky's support and affection for her! In the end, it was the sincere love the couple had for her each that won over Vic's initial misgivings (though never entirely her Russophobia which she believed could be threats to her Indian Empire via Afghanistan).

[dubbel zout]

10 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Not so much as Vic took great pride in her maternal side re the tiny duchy of Saxe Coburg putting themselves on every throne

 IMO, that was tied more to extending Albert's line rather than Victoria's. They're inextricably connected, of course, but it was an expression of Victoria's excessive mourning for Albert. His descendants would be shaping history.

[Blergh]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

 IMO, that was tied more to extending Albert's line rather than Victoria's. They're inextricably connected, of course, but it was an expression of Victoria's excessive mourning for Albert. His descendants would be shaping history.

Only in terms of an endless line of Alberts establishing a perpetual Saxe-Coburg dynasty upon her own death re Great Britain &Ireland and the Empire . However; Vic was indeed quite  invested in becoming the Grandmother of Europe and, despite numerous previous prolific monarchs having attempted this and failed, did sincerely believe that, if she her descendants were on all the thrones, she could nag them and their governments to play nice together and there'd be no more wars. Of course, even by the close of her own life, she'd seen   Kaiser Wilhelm totally ignore her advice to govern like his late father (whom she admitted she'd loved MORE than her own sons)  and be kind to his widowed bereaved mother. 

[Brn2bwild]

19 hours ago, Blergh said:

Only in terms of an endless line of Alberts establishing a perpetual Saxe-Coburg dynasty upon her own death re Great Britain &Ireland and the Empire . However; Vic was indeed quite  invested in becoming the Grandmother of Europe and, despite numerous previous prolific monarchs having attempted this and failed, did sincerely believe that, if she her descendants were on all the thrones, she could nag them and their governments to play nice together and there'd be no more wars. Of course, even by the close of her own life, she'd seen   Kaiser Wilhelm totally ignore her advice to govern like his late father (whom she admitted she'd loved MORE than her own sons)  and be kind to his widowed bereaved mother. 

That makes me wonder if the show will ever be able to showcase some of the grandiosity Victoria displayed.  Somehow I don't see Show Victoria calling herself "the doyenne of sovereigns!" as the real one did.  

ETA: One question I've always had: was "Willie" really Victoria's favorite grandchild, as some sources claim?  I could see her feeling that way at first, as he was one of the only grandchildren Albert knew, but I've also read that she found him irritating, etc.  Other sources claim Alix was her favorite grandchild.  My guess is that she had several she favored, but ultimately loved all of them.   

Edited March 3, 2018 by Brn2bwild

[floridamom]

Since it always has been the duty of those close to the throne to have a lot of children, I always wondered why George VI and Queen Elizabeth didn't have more children. They only had Elizabeth and Margaret. When it looked like they were going to be King and Queen, why didn't they try for a son or two? Something just doesn't seem right there to me.