S01.E10: The Bicameral Mind

[theatremouse]

My impression was a definite part is: 35 years ago the Wyatt narrative was uploaded to Dolores (ie Dolores is Wyatt). It was ambiguous as to whether that automatically meant Teddy, since his character is in the Wyatt narrarive, thereby automatically was also aware of her Wyattness at the time 35 years ago and acted accordingly believing the host we know as Dolores to be Wyatt, or if at the time he was doing what she told him to because he was still in their other usual Teddy-Dolores dynamic and "would do anything" for Dolores and only became aware of the Wyatt stuff when Ford uploaded that to him at the start of his "new narrative" business, but then because of the reveries Teddy was "remembering" Wyatt not just because it was uploaded but also because he had lived through it before at the time of Arnold's death. If we take the steadicam vs handheld rule literally probably a rewatch of the various times we were shown the Wyatt incident it might be easier to tell what was a programmed-in memory vs thing-that-happened, but I'm not even sure if that'd help since the original incident was programmed and then happened as programmed. So yeah I donno. I don't think it makes a huge difference to the ultimate outcome though.

[Milburn Stone]

Stupid question: What was the reason for implanting Wyatt into Dolores?

[theatremouse]

16 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Stupid question: What was the reason for implanting Wyatt into Dolores?

Arnold wanted her to kill all the hosts, then himself because he realized they had the capacity for sentience and wanted to prevent the park from ever opening, and assumed a host killing all others and their creator would either: be too much of a PR nightmare to overcome to ever actually open OR convince Ford to stop the endeavor. He was wrong on both.

[Bubbles1967]

On 12/5/2016 at 2:41 AM, Armchair Critic said:

Is it wrong that I hope she shot Charlotte?

Nope. I thought she was a smug bitch.  She may be against Ford but she could have showed him some respect given what he's built no matter how questionable. 

[DavieBoar]

Damn it looks like it's as I thought, after reading a lot of points on the topic of Maeve now, there isn't a single one that even begins to explain or justify the storyline - it really is just a terrible piece of writing. Hopefully they will identify just how awful the storyline is and go some way to 'saving' it in Season 2 by making/revealing both the techs as hosts. Even then it would be far fetched, even within a show like this but it would be better than what we can assume about the storyline just now. I genuinely hope that it is revealed that both techs were hosts and that literally every single thing that happens between Maeve and them has been scripted and planned, if not I won't be watching season 2.

[Milburn Stone]

22 hours ago, theatremouse said:

Arnold wanted her to kill all the hosts, then himself because he realized they had the capacity for sentience and wanted to prevent the park from ever opening, and assumed a host killing all others and their creator would either: be too much of a PR nightmare to overcome to ever actually open OR convince Ford to stop the endeavor. He was wrong on both.

Thanks, @theatremouse. So, reading into this a bit, Arnold knew it wouldn't be in Dolores' character to kill everyone even if he gave her that instruction? And so implanting Wyatt in her was the only way she would ever carry out the instruction? Why didn't he just have Wyatt do all the killing then (since he was so good at it)? Is it because Wyatt couldn't sneak up on the hosts like Dolores could, with the element of surprise and all that? (It's amazing how much I don't understand.)

Edited December 12, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[arc]

I guess if Arnold was going to go to the trouble to try to wreck everything he had built during his suicide, he might as well do it with his favorite host, not some new host he had no particular affection for.

[VegasMom]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

Thanks, @theatremouse. So, reading into this a bit, Arnold knew it wouldn't be in Dolores' character to kill everyone even if he gave her that instruction? And so implanting Wyatt in her was the only way she would ever carry out the instruction? Why didn't he just have Wyatt do all the killing then (since he was so good at it)? Is it because Wyatt couldn't sneak up on the hosts like Dolores could, with the element of surprise and all that? (It's amazing how much I don't understand.)

Wasn't the music a programmed trigger to Dolores to go on a killing spree.  I thought that was the point of it, Arnold used it orignally and Ford used the same method. I can't remember if it was the same music, I'll have to rewatch.  

[taanja]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 0:11 PM, arc said:

Seriously, Imma need all y'all to be able to tell different Asian people apart. That guy has a different nose and different lips from Leonardo Nam.

Hahaha! I am sitting here laughing cuz I am like--- Um...NOT the same person!

[Gobi]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Thanks, @theatremouse. So, reading into this a bit, Arnold knew it wouldn't be in Dolores' character to kill everyone even if he gave her that instruction? And so implanting Wyatt in her was the only way she would ever carry out the instruction? Why didn't he just have Wyatt do all the killing then (since he was so good at it)? Is it because Wyatt couldn't sneak up on the hosts like Dolores could, with the element of surprise and all that? (It's amazing how much I don't understand.)

There never was a Wyatt. Wyatt was based on what Dolores did in the original massacre. The only "Wyatt" ever built was the cannibal one in Sizemore's office.

[Milburn Stone]

24 minutes ago, Gobi said:

There never was a Wyatt. Wyatt was based on what Dolores did in the original massacre. The only "Wyatt" ever built was the cannibal one in Sizemore's office.

Oh! So Teddy's memories, in which he actually saw Wyatt killing people (back when they were Civil War soldiers), weren't memories of actual events? Or they were, but the truth was he witnessed Dolores killing all those people, and substituted a uniformed Wyatt in his mind?

[arc]

27 minutes ago, Gobi said:

There never was a Wyatt. Wyatt was based on what Dolores did in the original massacre. The only "Wyatt" ever built was the cannibal one in Sizemore's office.

No, there was some work towards building a Wyatt very early on. It was explained that Arnold's suicide included uploading the Wyatt stuff he and Ford had been writing into Dolores. But presumably Ford, at least, had never intended any narrative where Dolores murders all of Escalante.

[dgpolo]

I keep meaning to ask, did anyone notice a third 'logo' while Maeve and gang were on the move. I don't mean the SW one, I mean a third WW one? I'll watch again when I get a chance but I thought I had seen one.

[Gobi]

27 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Oh! So Teddy's memories, in which he actually saw Wyatt killing people (back when they were Civil War soldiers), weren't memories of actual events? Or they were, but the truth was he witnessed Dolores killing all those people, and substituted a uniformed Wyatt in his mind?

Teddy's memories of the Civil War massacre were implanted by Ford, not real memories. He did, however, both witness and participate in Dolores' massacre. Those real memories formed the basis of his Civil War ones.

[arc]

On 12/8/2016 at 10:31 AM, arc said:

Agreed with @Dev F above, and meanwhile I think the security (QA? Really?) team's reluctance to shoot is because (1) hosts are expensive* and (2) there might be humans around and those can't be brought back from death. And specifically about #1, QA had no idea at first that Hector and Maeve were involved as well, and Armistice's tattoos were mostly covered up by the time the team arrived on the scene.

* there actually was a Delos email, before the website got overhauled post-finale, saying to QA something like "please don't shoot up the hosts if you can just freeze them, they're expensive to repair."

Oh, I figured out how to read the old Delos site, and the email said:

Quote

SUBJECT: UNNECESSARY HOST DAMAGE

From: Lowe, Bernard – Host Behavior (WW)
To: Stubbs, Ashley – Quality Assurance, Security (WW)

Far be it from me to tell you guys how to do your jobs but – several hosts in the Bloody Benders storyline were shot in the face by a QA Security Response team in Sector 23.

Some of the hosts are homicidal by design, but they cannot hurt humans. In this instance, the three hosts in question are designed to rush headlong at “victims,” but no employee was in any real danger.

Just asking that you remind your team to use voice commands first and shoot as a last resort. This latest trigger-happy response has led to some unnecessary costs, since we have to now rebuild the hosts’ cortical shields from scratch.

As I read it: shooting a malfunctioning host in the chest can probably stop it (see Clementine, arguably), so head shots are reserved for especially dangerous hosts. (Did the QA team even try voice commands to freeze Hector and Armistice?)

[jeansheridan]

On 12/10/2016 at 3:35 PM, dgpolo said:

As shown on this show the humans aren't sympathetic so why should Felix be so?

I don't like Felix but I do think there needs to be a few sympathetic humans.  Or humans we can relate to and root for like Ashley or Bernard's assistant (one week and I have forgotten her name!).  It makes for a better show.  

For example just seeing that mother/daughter pair on the train reminded us of the real world.  And there was that seemingly nice family that met Dolores.  Reminders that not all humans suck.

 

16 hours ago, arc said:

Did the QA team even try voice commands to freeze Hector and Armistice?)

Yes, while Armistice shot at them with a shit eating grin.  It was in the credits.  I think they suck a little for burying that in the credits.  It is cute in Marvel films bit seems weird here.  It was too action showish.   

[NutMeg]

Ford helps me, but boy was I rooting for these crazy kids, Armistice and Hector!

[TobinAlbers]

9 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I think they suck a little for burying that in the credits.  It is cute in Marvel films bit seems weird here.  It was too action showish.   

If they had to have a post/mid credits scene, I would've liked a shot and bleeding Charlotte running for her life in the woods as hosts close in, she hides, and is watching from the shadows when a hand closes over her mouth and she begins to struggle until she looks back to see it's Stubbs with a bedraggled Elsie with him. They motion for her to stay quiet and the three melt back into the shadows as the hosts continue moving through the woods. Cut to black.

We at least know Stubbs and Elsie are out there and that humans are rallying. Although I get why they didn't do something like the above because leaving everyone's fates up in the air keeps them from being boxed in if an actor isn't available for S2 but it'd have been nice to have some idea what happened to them.

[taanja]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 10:31 PM, maddie965 said:

Thank you. My mother's (and my grandmother's) name is Dolores, so everytime I see her name misspelled, it's like someone put a knive to my heart.

I haven't read all the posts yet, but this is killing me. Does anyone think that Arnold might not have existed AT ALL? That it was all Ford, all of the time? Something about double Dolores telling her "It was always me..."

But I'm probably wrong. So, in the present Ford decided to go with Arnold's plans and shut down the park. What took him so long? 35 years to realize Arnold was right???

My cousin's name is Delores-- we call her Lola and yes--it is spelled DE not DO

[dgpolo]

42 minutes ago, taanja said:

My cousin's name is Delores-- we call her Lola and yes--it is spelled DE not DO

Ok, but Dolores Abernathy's name is spelled DO not DE.

[taanja]

Just now, dgpolo said:

Ok, but Dolores Abernathy's name is spelled DO not DE.

but is it such a sin to spell it DE? haha! Like a knife through the heart kind of sin?

De? Do? All sounds the same in the long run...

[ennui]

On 12/8/2016 at 3:22 AM, DavieBoar said:

If it turned out the 2 techs were hosts, programmed to follow Maeves orders would be the only way the whole storyline isn't utterly ridiculous in every single way.

Maybe they are disgruntled workers, and it amuses them to screw with the system.

2 hours ago, dgpolo said:

Ok, but Dolores Abernathy's name is spelled DO not DE.

Don't sweat the small stuff. 

[formerlyfreedom]

4 hours ago, ennui said:

Don't sweat the small stuff. 

As someone whose first name can be spelled at least four different ways, this is a great point. I never take it personally when someone misspells it - unless it's my mom, since she's the one who picked the spelling! (and it's not saoirse!)

[spritz]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 5:47 AM, DavieBoar said:

This is probably the worst attempt at an explanation for the terrible, senseless Maeve storyline that I have seen. Why the hell would anyone on earth be threatened, intimidated or 'scared to death' by her whether she wakes up herself or not? Of course they wouldn't, it's utterly ridiculous; they would have shut her down in seconds. Not your fault though - there is no explanation, we need to accept that the storyline is just awful in every way, completely contradictory and makes no sense whatsoever in the context of the show.

It's all well and good for people to say it will make sense if one or both the techs are hosts; but we don't know that and I don't think they are. Taking the storyline as it is, it's a show ruining mess. It's actually laughable when you think how far it goes considering the techs (and hundreds of other people) could shut her down at any moment. Even for whatever reason they followed her order, say the one to max out her intelligence, they could have taken it down to the bottom at any time. That single storyline is probably the worst have ever seen in any series, how it made it in I will never know. It destroyed any enjoyment of the show for me and I will not be watching season 2 as a result.

I feel your pain.

I couldn't help but shake my head when I saw that scene. So disappointing. It was maddening to watch the show after that.

Those two techies had complete power over Maeve. Power and control over Maeve was literally in their hands. By the time that scene happened, they should have known how manipulative and dangerous Maeve could be. With simple pushes of buttons, either Felix or Sylvester could have dumbed down Maeve or tamed her. Yet they did the inexplicable, they unnecessarily submitted to the will of Maeve and turned her into a smart murderous monster.

I haven't given up on watching the show though. I hope there won't be this type of nonsense next season.

 

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:36 PM, arc said:

Oh, I figured out how to read the old Delos site, and the email said:

As I read it: shooting a malfunctioning host in the chest can probably stop it (see Clementine, arguably), so head shots are reserved for especially dangerous hosts. (Did the QA team even try voice commands to freeze Hector and Armistice?)

During the closing credits, you can hear the commandos shouting at Armistice, "freeze motor functions", to no avail. What a shame that there were so many dumb humans in Westworld. Just shoot her already. Pull the trigger and put a stop to the murderous host already. I don't know why the commandos were even concerned about damaging Armistice. The tech people could repair her even if she was riddled with bullets. By the end of the credits, I believe Armistice, with one arm, was still on the loose.

Edited December 14, 2016 by spritz
spelling correction

[arc]

5 hours ago, spritz said:

Just shoot her already. Pull the trigger and put a stop to the murderous host already. I don't know why the commandos were even concerned about damaging Armistice. The tech people could repair her even if she was riddled with bullets. By the end of the credits, I believe Armistice, with one arm, was still on the loose.

She sawed off her own arm. and aside from the loss of the limb, she was no less dangerous: no shock, no apparent pain. (Remember, Maeve had already dialed down their pain sensitivity.) And going back to the pilot, Walter was leaking milk out of multiple bullet holes but still more than able to shoot. Seems like when you really need them, those guns QA had weren't really that much help against rogue hosts.

But assuming I'm correct about the above, it would have made more sense to actually show that the hosts were nigh-unstoppable. I don't think QA successfully shot either Hector nor Armistice onscreen. Hector presumably caught a few bullets right after those elevator doors closed.

Speaking of which, why was there an open firefight on that office level but the departure terminal for the train wasn't in lockdown? (I mean, OK, I guess if Maeve's escape was scripted by Ford and he locked the control room out, I can see how he would also prevent the train and departure terminal from being locked down.)

Edited December 14, 2016 by arc

[Gobi]

3 hours ago, arc said:

 

Speaking of which, why was there an open firefight on that office level but the departure terminal for the train wasn't in lockdown? (I mean, OK, I guess if Maeve's escape was scripted by Ford and he locked the control room out, I can see how he would also prevent the train and departure terminal from being locked down.)

There would be no perceived danger, due to the explosives implanted in each host to prevent escape.

[Chicago Redshirt]

It's also not clear that anyone in security necessarily knew that Maeve was a rogue host and she escaped. People would have been focused on the obvious threats of Hector and Down-to-one-Arm-istice.

Granted, Maeve did very little to disguise her appearance, and given that she's fairly prominently featured in WW, one might think that either the security would notice or random guests would be like, "Hey, you look just like the madam in the Mariposa!"  And you'd have to think that almost every guest would have poked his head (and other body parts) in there.

But it's plausible that even without Ford running interference for Maeve's escape, no one would have realized she was gone.

[taanja]

12 hours ago, saoirse said:

As someone whose first name can be spelled at least four different ways, this is a great point. I never take it personally when someone misspells it - unless it's my mom, since she's the one who picked the spelling! (and it's not saoirse!)

Look at my name! no one can pronounce it much less spell it correctly!

I'm just going to put it out there that as a non-spoiled viewer I was shocked and amazed and downright flabbergasted that The Man in Black and William are one in the same. Wow. I loved it. What a twist. And Delores/Dolores is my favorite! her story arc to self-discovery has been such a pleasure to watch. The actress and her perfectly coifed hair are the epitome of what I envision a robot/android/artificial life form to be. Damn good job show. Bravo.

[ennui]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

random guests would be like, "Hey, you look just like the madam in the Mariposa!"

But would anyone know that the madam was a host? Maybe it was another guest and that was their fantasy.

[maddie965]

On 13/12/2016 at 5:52 PM, taanja said:

but is it such a sin to spell it DE? haha! Like a knife through the heart kind of sin?

De? Do? All sounds the same in the long run...

They sound very different in Spanish. And in Portuguese, my language.  But yeah, knife through the heart was a little too much, LOL!

I love Hopkins reaction to Ford being killed. It IS beautiful, and it brings a sense of closure to the history. Love everything about the finale. I'm all for the hosts killing the humans. Makes sense in the narrative and it's so damn satisfying. I also love Felix.  I agre with whoever compared him to the abolitionists. That's it exactly. Go Felix! Free them all!

Edited December 15, 2016 by maddie965

[ElectricBoogaloo]

After everything Felix did to help Maeve, I was really hoping she would specifically tell Hector and Armistice not to hurt him or kill him. It seemed like the least she could do.

I loved how cheerfully Hector told Armistice to die well when she said she would hold off the security guys. Similarly, Hector took it pretty well when Maeve stopped him from getting into the elevator to escape with her.

LOVED seeing Dolores kick MIB's ass. That was a long time coming. It was also satisfying to see that Clementine was the one who shot him after the gala.

I, too, am curious as to how much of the narrative the board members saw at the gala before Dolores died in Teddy's arms at the beach.

[charmed1]

On December 12, 2016 at 4:57 PM, dgpolo said:

I keep meaning to ask, did anyone notice a third 'logo' while Maeve and gang were on the move. I don't mean the SW one, I mean a third WW one? I'll watch again when I get a chance but I thought I had seen one.

The one that kind of looked like the maze?

[phoenyx]

Just found this video explaining the last episode of the season by New Rockstars, really liked it :-)...

[paigow]

On 12/14/2016 at 10:00 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

 Down-to-one-Arm-istice.
 

AKA: Hand Solo; UniArmer; Tabitha Galavan....

[cmahorror]

I watched this through Amazon Prime and it definitely showed (it was either episode 8 or 9, I can't remember which) Elsie being strangled by Bernard in a flashback. Was it edited out of the original showing on HBO for some reason or was it in there and people just assume she survived?

I really enjoyed this and was pleasantly surprised by the show. I did not guess that William was the MIB or that Bernard was a host and I can usually spot a plot twist a mile away.

Ford isn't dead, that was definitely a host which is why she was able to kill him. William was shot but not killed, at least as far as we know, so I don't think everyone got reprogrammed - just the few handpicked by Maeve.

[Solace247]

38 minutes ago, cmahorror said:

I watched this through Amazon Prime and it definitely showed (it was either episode 8 or 9, I can't remember which) Elsie being strangled by Bernard in a flashback. Was it edited out of the original showing on HBO for some reason or was it in there and people just assume she survived?

There were some saavy people from the internet that decoded a clue one of the show's website ARG's that showed Elsie's beacon within the park and an audio file of her saying "Hello?". That's why we're assuming she survives. Working off that--the assumption is that Stubbs is alive as well.

[cmahorror]

Gotcha - thank you for the explanation.

[LittleBopper]

No matter how good or how bad you may consider this show to be, it seems to me that it has to be one of the most inventive and "well done" TV shows that has been produced in a very long time.

No matter how little or how much it depended on special effects, it really challenged me and enabled me to stretch my imagination in ways that I haven't done since way back when I first saw The Twilight Zone back in the 1950s. I have to give this show some huge "Thumbs Up" because it was just so amazingly entertaining. If there was such a place for real, I would spend almost all the money I had in this world to go and experience this adventure. It would seem to be a fabulous place as well as a fabulous adventure and vacation).  I just wish that someone may be able to create such a place one day. It would be a miracle!

[VCRTracking]

Just caught up with the finale last night and loved it.

Edited January 16, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Pippin]

On 2017-01-07 at 6:42 AM, LittleBopper said:

it seems to me that it has to be one of the most inventive and "well done" TV shows that has been produced in a very long time.

Absolutely and totally agree.  Compare Westworld with some of the other drek foisted upon your average television viewer and all I can say is ... thank heavens for HBO!

Westworld reminds me a bit of "Lost" and "X-Files" in their respective heydays in that it provided much food for thought, and much fun discussing the results of said thoughts on forums like this.  I hope it doesn't go the way of those shows and end up with the "let's-throw-this-against-the-wall-and-see-if-it-sticks" method of storytelling that they did.

As I said in another thread, I'll be interested to see where and when they pick up the storyline when the show returns.  Will we see the massacre continue?  Or will it be the day or week after, with panicked officialdom on the mainland trying to figure out whether there are any survivors and how to rescue them?  Some one suggested they may do multiple timelines again, and that idea made my tiny head explode ...

[Guest]

Just finished this.  I enjoyed it but found myself disappointed from about ep 9 on.  Maybe I'd have liked it better if I hadn't read some of the episode threads after watching and seen all the speculation that wound up correct.  I didn't want Bernard to be Arnold or William to be MIB, not sure why.  I guess neither made thematic sense to me, on some level.  

I still wonder how the same techs were at work in the control room for the 'old' and 'young' William stories.  Did anyone solve that, or was it never even the case, just misreported viewing?  

I also wonder what the deal was with nude Logan tied to a bolting horse.  

I was a bit taken out of the story by all the abuse of the bots.  I think in reality those things would be costly and they would be cared for as such.  I think the fights would (for cost purposes) have highly realistic simulated injuries, not the acts of actually destroying them and then clumsily rebuilding them daily.  And they wouldn't be hosed off like dirty floor mats or Turkish prisoners.  Those hoo-haws would need a good disinfecting and there's no reason bots that sophisticated couldn't do it themselves, imo.  

I also couldn't summon any emotional investment in deaths of the hosts.  When they get killed and re-built daily, why would we care?   And that includes Bernard shooting himself in the head and even Ford, assuming he's also a bot or has copied his consciousness into one.  I mean, I understand we're meant to feel sorry for the part of them that feels, and I did.  But they also used host deaths as story events that seemed designed to hold meaning, as a human death would, due to the finality.  Those failed for me.  

So did Felix and Sylvester, for the most part.  

A lot of good stuff, though.  I love the philosophical themes of determinism.  And I thought it was very visually appealing and well acted, with few exceptions.

[Jalyn]

On 1/17/2017 at 10:52 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I still wonder how the same techs were at work in the control room for the 'old' and 'young' William stories.  Did anyone solve that, or was it never even the case, just misreported viewing?  

It wasn't misreported viewing, but it also wasn't the case. Every piece that happened in the security center, other than Dolores talking to Arnold, happened in "Old William" time. Actually, the entire storyline happened in that time, it's just that host memories are imperceptible from current action to them. The "glitches" that were causing Dolores to retrieve stored memories (including the conversations with Arnold) as she traveled felt like present happenings to her. 

[kelslamu]

Am I the only one to hate the Teddy character?  

[Gobi]

On 12/11/2016 at 2:07 PM, Abernathy said:

Yes. You are right, but on the events 35 yrs ago, that led to Arnold's death, was Teddy AWARE of Wyatt???? Because after the massacre he asks Dolores about what had happened. I think Ford was the one responsable for uploading the Wyatt narrative on Teddy...or am I seeing things wrong???

I think you are correct. The Wyatt narrative was based on the earlier events, but there was no Wyatt originally.

[DrSpaceman73]

I am late to the party and just finished the whole series in the past week. 

I really enjoyed and did not see most of the "twists" coming. 

However I have to say my favorite part of the story isn't William being the MIB or Bernard (which is close to "B-Arnold") is reincarnated robot Arnold, but simply the questions of what determines consciousness, does consciousness itself denote the same type of life as what humans possess, does the ability to be brought back and essentially be reincarnated after death negate the brutality of those non-permanent deaths, and the other related philosophical questions about the similarities and differences between a human mind and the robot mind. 

The twists were fun, in some cases, and interesting, but by the end, it was pretty convoluted and confusing about who was who and hard to follow and believe.  That's one or my two criticisms of the show. 

The other ones is the obvious, many times mentioned confusing nature of why those two idiots kept going along with Maeve.

Also ending up in "SW", we are assuming its samurai world I guess, just seems like an unnecessary shameless season two plug.  It didn't add much to the story. 

[HotRats2112]

On 12/13/2016 at 10:09 PM, spritz said:

This is probably the worst attempt at an explanation for the terrible, senseless Maeve storyline that I have seen. Why the hell would anyone on earth be threatened, intimidated or 'scared to death' by her whether she wakes up herself or not? Of course they wouldn't, it's utterly ridiculous; they would have shut her down in seconds. Not your fault though - there is no explanation, we need to accept that the storyline is just awful in every way, completely contradictory and makes no sense whatsoever in the context of the show.

It's all well and good for people to say it will make sense if one or both the techs are hosts; but we don't know that and I don't think they are. Taking the storyline as it is, it's a show ruining mess. It's actually laughable when you think how far it goes considering the techs (and hundreds of other people) could shut her down at any moment. Even for whatever reason they followed her order, say the one to max out her intelligence, they could have taken it down to the bottom at any time. That single storyline is probably the worst have ever seen in any series, how it made it in I will never know. It destroyed any enjoyment of the show for me and I will not be watching season 2 as a result.

It was all a long con by Ford.  Sylvester talks about behavioral screening in the womb and this is something Ford would have had in hand when he picked the techs that Maeve would target.  Ford knew that Felix and Sylvester were susceptible to Maeve's mission.  He programmed Maeve the entire way.  And Felix wasn't scared, he was in love with Maeve.  I assume this is also something Ford knew.  The techs don't need to be hosts, it's better that they're humans, susceptible and cowardly.  Between these two and the jerk off kid we didn't see one tech that was not a total scumbag. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by HotRats2112

[Jordan27]

I really enjoyed this series.  Kept me interested every episode.   Good acting by all involved.  Looking forward to next year.

And I'm a guest, not a host.  Well, that's what I was told...........

[shrewd.buddha]

Eh. It was entertaining, but there were a lot of issues with the 'narratives'. One glaring one was how did Anthony Hopkins's character know that Ed Harris' character was only going to stab Dolores at the end, allowing her to die during his presentation on the beach under the giant moon? What if the MIB had shot Dolores and Teddy in the head? Or what if some guest had killed Teddy during his journey to find Dolores?

The MIB/William twist mostly worked because the actors looked nothing like one another, regardless of a thirty year difference : different nose, ears, voice, etc. Hey showrunners : all Caucasian people don't look alike. 

The quest for consciousness was interesting. But the conclusion of it, resulting in Dolores becoming a murder-bot, didn't come off well. She still appeared to be a pawn in Ford's exit plan. 

[Solace247]

12 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

One glaring one was how did Anthony Hopkins's character know that Ed Harris' character was only going to stab Dolores at the end, allowing her to die during his presentation on the beach under the giant moon? What if the MIB had shot Dolores and Teddy in the head? Or what if some guest had killed Teddy during his journey to find Dolores?

The beach was a stone's throw from the main street in Escalante, where the gala tables were already set up. Teddy and Dolores rode off from the church at the end of the street and arrived at the beach during twilight. Unless they rode for hours in circles, odds are, they were pulled prior to entering 'stage left' in front of the board on the beach. It could have played out any way Ford wanted it to because the board doesn't know shit. If Teddy were shot, he could be patched up and sent out to meet Dolores at the church, or Ford puts them on a horse and sends them out. Dolores was turned around rather quickly by Ford after being stabbed. The narrative was the massacre... everything else was just Ford being poetic and shit.

[LeGrandElephant]

I'm behind - just finished this. Overall, I liked it and thought this show was really well done! I'm impressed so many people here guessed so many of the twists - impressed both at the audience and the writers. I think the fact that some people guessed correctly shows the show did a good job foreshadowing and having everything hold together. I hate when they try to shock the audience but really the result is bad storytelling or a plot that makes no sense. I also really enjoyed reading the threads here for each episode. 

I did have one complaint: I don't think Arnold's plan made any sense. He wanted Dolores and Teddy to kill all the other hosts to save them - but how does that even remotely come close to saving them? He KNOWS Ford can just repair them. I also didn't really understand the point of him wanting to die - if it was just his own depression, fine, but it was spun like he wanted to die somehow to save the hosts, and it didn't make sense to me at all as a plan. So that was a bit disappointing, but otherwise the show fit together very well and the finale did a good job answering most of the questions while still setting up suspense for next season. Bravo. 

My interpretation of Maeve's storyline is that she was written to keep going on the train, because Bernard said something like "Once Maeve gets to the mainland, she..." before she cut him off and smashed the tablet. So then when she decided to go back for her daughter, I interpreted that as her making a decision contrary to her scripted storyline. 

It is  a bit unclear how Ford can claim Dolores is freely choosing to kill him without being scripted to, but he also can predict for sure that she will do it and when... 

I was ok with Felix up until now - I thought he was trying to do the moral thing by helping Maeve once he realized she was conscious, while also being anxious about it. But I didn't quite get why he kept going along with them once Hector and Armistice started killing everyone, even a (probably innocent and unarmed) receptionist. 

 

On 12/5/2016 at 7:36 AM, arc said:

I guess it was the end of her first journey with William, the one where Logan waylaid them and stabbed her? I thought William explained that Dolores kept going off-loop, essentially finding a new loop for herself where she would return to Escalante, and in the early years he would sometimes go along with her on these trips. It was a little quick and vague, but that was how I understood it.

I sort of caught that too, but its confusing. If he knew she was repeatedly retracing that first journey with him, why did he believe their connection wasn't meaningful to her and why was he surprised she remembered him? 

Edited March 25, 2017 by LeGrandElephant