S01.E10: The Bicameral Mind

[Miles]

11 minutes ago, Jael said:

As much as I enjoyed seeing Logan naked on a horse, that made no sense. If he survived, it would be his word against William's, and why would they believe William? Logan was the one with the rank and power. And given how hardcore William was, I can't imagine him sending Logan off to die without being 100% sure death would actually result.

Yeah that didn't make much sense. I guess Logan had a history of being a loose canon and William was always the quiet responsible one. Still riding naked on a horse in Westworld doesn't seem that dramatic and blood is thicker than water. I mean look at Donald Trump. He certainly is a loose canon and his business sense leaves a lot to be desired. His dad still left him the company and millions of dollars.

I guess I have to fanwank this with William having a super secret extremely genius plan that he executed off screen.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Miles

[Ellaria]

15 minutes ago, Jael said:

As much as I enjoyed seeing Logan naked on a horse, that made no sense. If he survived, it would be his word against William's, and why would they believe William? Logan was the one with the rank and power. And given how hardcore William was, I can't imagine him sending Logan off to die without being 100% sure death would actually result.

Agree. And if he died, why wouldn't it be confirmed? A guest dying in the park 30 years ago would be noteworthy.

[dmc]

I find this show puzzling. It's interesting but not actually good. I don't know why I keep watching it.

What the hell happened to Ashley?
Trying to understand the Maze makes my head hurt.

What happened to Logan? If he's dead wouldn't his death be majorly suspicious. No one looked into it?

Why is William so crazy? He was that in love with Delores in like a week?

And I still say the weakest plot point is that no one would pay 40k to stay there.

Maive just leaves I guess

21 hours ago, izabella said:

On 12/5/2016 at 1:45 AM, Vaz said:

I firmly believe in the "no body, not death" trope so I'm going to assume that Stubbs and Elsie are alive. Bummer that we're going to have to wait until S2 to find out.

Why are people asking about Elsie.  We saw in one of Bernard's trips down sentient lane that he was the one who grabbed Elsie and snapped her neck - his face was reflected in a mirror or something.  Did I just imagine this?

I am in denial she is one of the few characters I like-they need to bring her back

[jcin617]

14 minutes ago, dmc said:

Trying to understand the Maze makes my head hurt.

The maze is just a figurative construct of consciousness within a host's mind.   Every decision, experience and memory a host has leads them through the "maze" of their mind.   The right set of decisions, circumstances and experiences leads them to the center wherein they achieve full consciousness.   Reaching the "center" occurs when a host truly understands that "the voice in their head" is not Ford, or Arnold, or their programming, but themselves - thinking freely.  This is what happened with Dolores and presumably Maeve, at the end.    Most of the time, though, these choices and experiences lead them the wrong way, back to the outside or a dead end where they go insane.   See Maeve a year ago when her daughter was killed.

Edited December 5, 2016 by jcin617

[KaleyFirefly]

On 12/4/2016 at 9:34 PM, DEL901 said:

The producers said that they would answer all the questions but 1, what comes next and they did.  Unlike some shows *cough Lost cough*, they did.

I'm still bitter about "Lost" as well!

On 12/4/2016 at 10:18 PM, CofCinci said:

He's a Host.  There he is in Samurai World.

Forget this Old West crap, I just want to see a show about Samurai World. That would be awesome!

[arc]

Seriously, Imma need all y'all to be able to tell different Asian people apart. That guy has a different nose and different lips from Leonardo Nam.

[Pallas]

10 hours ago, jojozigs said:

The man in black really was just seeking a more in depth game.  NOT a search for robot consciousness.  Not a way to save Dolores.  Not a way to become a host.  Just better gameplay.  They have him talk about killing Maeves daughter, and how she seemed "alive".  How that changed everything for him.  But here he has Dolores doing the exact same and he just mocks and abuses her, prodding her for clues about the maze...  like he has forgotten all about The Maeve awakening being his motivation.  Dude it's happening again right in front of you.  And can we now conclude that his abuse of Dolores and teddy in ep 1 really was just a bit of fun and had nothing to do with triggering her walkabout?  Because he didn't bring that up at all, and it would have made sense to.  

It seems all he loved about the Maeve awakening was what it meant for him: a living adversary who could harm him; a living adversary he could therefore enjoy harming again. Not love but something real; something true. That's what he said, anyway. And the Maze seemed to signal Maeve's coming to life. So his motivation really was discovering the level of reality foretold by Maeve's awakening. Just not for the more humane reasons many of us had imagined.

I think he did have exactly the same kind of little talk with Dolores back at the ranch, that he had with her in the graveyard. The conversation at the ranch also probably ended with his gutting her, to see if this would create the same magic that it did it with Maeve. At the Abernathy ranch it went nowhere but her death, however, because Dolores was on another path than Maeve. At the Escalante graveyard the Man in Black could assume she must have new information or new importance gained from her pilgrim's progress.

2 hours ago, Lamima said:

Maybe Elsie and Stubbs are still alive, for now as Ford needs them, for now.

Ford put them on ice from the start of tech week through opening night. With Ford's show over and this show renewed, they'll be back.  

8 hours ago, eliot90000 said:

 Ford has to be dead and not a host.  The whole point of his new narrative is that the hosts are now autonomous beings.  Ford will no longer be pulling their strings.  They are the music he leaves behind.

Perhaps, but I don't think Ford would leave the outcome to chance. And after this performance, he may have a Bernard who's really ready to join with him in partnership. Ford's like William: he's looking forward to matching wits with self-aware and peerless robots, and leaving lesser, mortal, beings behind.  

[Dev F]

18 minutes ago, Pallas said:

It seems all he loved about the Maeve awakening was what it meant for him: a living adversary who could harm him; a living adversary he could therefore enjoy harming again. Not love but something real; something true. That's what he said, anyway. And the Maze seemed to signal Maeve's coming to life. So his motivation really was discovering the level of reality foretold by Maeve's awakening. Just not for the more humane reasons many of us had imagined.

Yeah, when all is said and done, it seems like what William was really reacting to was the prospect of new content that didn't follow the predictable patterns he'd grown weary of over his years in the park. The fact that the maze wasn't intended for him probably made it all the more enticing, because it means there couldn't be a programmed reaction to him solving it.

Though I do wonder why the guests' reaction to "The scripted content is boring and predictable" wasn't like the reaction to that thing in real-life MMORPGs: for players to create their own content -- player-founded guilds, player-on-player combat, etc.

[sneakyflute]

I really like where Maeve's storyline is headed, but I really wish they had provided more realistic or satisfying incentives for Felix and Sylvester. Was it just pure desire to help someone they thought was essentially human at that point? She lost all leverage the moment she incinerated herself.

[Pallas]

5 hours ago, jojozigs said:

We now know that Teddy already was devoted to Dolores before William showed up.  Arnold tells Dolores she'll need some help (to massacre the hosts / kill him) and Teddy will do anything for her.  Those events happened about 3 years before William and Logan arrive at the park. 

You are so right, I, so wrong. From that perspective, I like that William and his experience didn't make a dent in the ongoing narratives. To Ford, William's transformation was a dime a dozen; beyond that, William was just one of the money people. Another human who liked to hurt things, and pay cash for the privilege. 

[Macbeth]

5 hours ago, djsunyc said:

brilliantly acted but i feel like the rest of the series will be a rehash of battlestar galactica - cylons vs. humans...just from the cylons POV.

No no no.  We won't have Starbuck become an "angel" to guide the crew to Earth.   This show clearly stated by way of Michaelangelo's painting that the divine is a creation of human mind. 

I liked that they gave Anthony Hopkins a possible out.  Relying on an actor who will be 80 next year is not a good long term plan to carry a series. 

To me Jeffrey Wright is the most valuable player in this series.  His character is the heart of the show.

I enjoy the fact that it is the blond girl who everyone needs to be afraid of and is homicidal. 

Bernard and Teddy were not happy with the revolution - so that is where the conflict will rise from in later seasons.

These robots are greatly damaged by the years of abuse they have suffered.  While they may be able to evolve to greater creatures - I am not sure given how they have been programmed and what they have suffered if they will escape the prison they are in.

Bernard is the key to the evolution.

[SoothingDave]

Am I to understand that Felix and Sylvester printed Maeve a new body and had to somehow transfer her entire "mind" into it and they never thought of just not doing it once she was incapable of moving?

[jcin617]

Yes, that's presumably what happened.    The only thing I can think of is that Maeve had some kind blackmail plan like "if I don't come online within X days, I've set the system to email all the stuff you've done to the admins".  Or Felix just really believed in her cause.

[Shipper]

I basically thought Logan was dead and William staged it as an accident. Logan's hands were tied and he was set naked on a horse sent galloping across hilly terrain.  How long could Logan really stay seated?  A fall from a hose at a gallop could break your neck.  If William looped stirrup in such a way that Logan would be dragged by the horse if he fell, Logan would easily be killed.  Stripping him naked? Way to make it humiliating by making it look like his own foolishly reckless (and sexual) actions leading to his death.  Basically I thought it was William setting up both murder and the way he got away with it.  

Edited December 6, 2016 by Shipper

[SoothingDave]

Having his hands tied makes it very suspicious.  It's not just "death by misadventure."  Some other person had to have tied his hands.  He would not have been able to mount a horse with his hands tied, either.

[Honey]

2 hours ago, Jael said:

As much as I enjoyed seeing Logan naked on a horse, that made no sense. If he survived, it would be his word against William's, and why would they believe William? Logan was the one with the rank and power. And given how hardcore William was, I can't imagine him sending Logan off to die without being 100% sure death would actually result.

My other frustration is Felix's mindless cooperation with Maeve, but he could still be a host, so I'll wait and see on that. If the picture someone posted on p1 of a Felix-looking samurai means he was designed as a host for a different park of the park, her line "you're one of them, not one of us," could still apply. (Though unlike Cylons, so far all hosts seem to be unique, right? One Dolores, one Teddy, etc. though they may play different roles over the years.)

Did Abernathy make it out of the park? Was that addressed?

My new life goal is to look as good as Tessa Thompson in high-waisted white pants.

Other than being Asian, Felix looks nothing like that Samurai.  Not even a little bit.

[CrashTextDummie]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

With everything that happened in this episode, I really have only one question:

Why was Charlotte Hale crying during Ford's ending speech? She'd been portrayed as pretty cold, single-minded and thrilled to push Ford out. The display of emotion on her part seemed so out of place that there had to be something more there that having a sad that Ford was retiring with class and dignity.

I don't think she was crying. I think she realized something awful was about to happen. Earlier in the episode, when she announced to Ford that he was out, she was already discomforted by his serenity. She had just achieved her long awaited victory and yet her adversary remained unfazed. So when Ford went along with it and started delivering his departure speech, she realized that he must have one last ace up his sleeve.

Other thoughts on the episode:

- I loved the reveal of the true meaning of what the maze represented, and how the show depicted Dolores reaching the center of it. Of course, the core truth that solving the maze meant achieving sentience or consciousness or whatever you want to call it, like so many other things, was telegraphed way in advance. But I was really impressed by all the details and subtleties. For one, the concept of the maze always felt really abstract to me. We could guess the reward for successfully traversing it, but the show never gave us any indication for what the maze actually was and whether we were actually in it or still looking for it, or so it seemed to me. So to learn that the voice in Dolores' head was not so much guiding her towards/through the maze as it was a literal representation of her being inside the maze was a true and unexpected twist to me. As was the reveal that Ford's pyramid, seemingly a harmless piece of exposition at the time of its introduction, was actually kind of an unfinished design of the maze. So that all worked wonderfully to me. Besides, the concept that our own inner voice is the final, definitive indication of consciousness is just philosophically rich to me.

- Perhaps what I liked most about the maze is that TMIB still doesn't really get it. "It doesn't mean anything to me" I believe is what he thought when Dolores handed him the puzzle, even as its meaning and poignancy manifested itself for Dolores and the viewing audience. It's funny to me how TMIB in many ways turned out to be a subversion of the shows themes. As portrayed by Ed Harris, he was perhaps the most robotic character in the entire show, stone-faced at all times. And really, that's how I picture Harris when I think of him, so brilliant casting. That made his smile at the end of the episode beautiful, comical and grotesque all at once. The first true instance of uncanny valley for me in this show about robots.

- I think it's brilliant how the show weaved its mysteries into the narrative. I mean it goes without saying that any twist (predictable as it might be) in a work of fiction should have an impact on its characters, but figuring out the timeline stuff, Arnold and the maze was literally Dolores' journey throughout the season. The only unfortunate aspect was that as Dolores finally reached an understanding of these things, the show decided to also make it super explicit for the audience, which meant Anthony Hopkins spent 95% of the episode playing the exposition fairy. If you're gonna have an actor reading excessive monologues to explain your show you could do much, much worse than Anthony Hopkins, of course, but it still felt somewhat clunky in that regard.

- Looking ahead to season 2 and already I'm seeing people worried that the show will expect them to side with the robots in a robots vs. humans war. But did we not just witness Dolores (and Maeve?) transcend being a robot, a piece of machinery? Isn't one of the central points of the show to explore and question whether at some point, the distinction cannot be made anymore? Have we reached that point? Or course, these developments also make questions of morality more complicated by orders of magnitude going forward. So far, it's mostly been an exploration of how the humans treat the hosts. and the show didn't make it much of a secret on where it stood in that regard. But now that Dolores (and perhaps other hosts) has reached self-determination, her actions cannot be attributed to or excused by her programming or faults therein anymore either. Her first act upon liberation was a mass murder. Or a declaration of war, depending of your viewpoint.

So the episode wiped the board clean in more ways that one. The inherent disadvantage of the hosts has been stripped away, and so too has their status of being pure victims. I'm also looking forward to the show exploring questions of nurture vs. nature, "nature" in this case being the personality Dolores has been programmed to have and nurture being all the suffering she had to go through. And the most beautiful aspect of it all is that, having watched the previous works of the creators of Westworld, I have zero doubt that they will go there, and to places I couldn't even think of, and deliver on all fronts.

Top tier television.

Edited December 5, 2016 by CrashTextDummie

[jojozigs]

3 minutes ago, Honey said:

Other than being Asian, Felix looks nothing like that Samurai.  Not even a little bit.

I really LOL'd when they had Felix wondering if he was a host and Maeve being like "No darling..."   Can't believe some people still think he's a host after that gag?!

[Dev F]

21 minutes ago, SoothingDave said:

Am I to understand that Felix and Sylvester printed Maeve a new body and had to somehow transfer her entire "mind" into it and they never thought of just not doing it once she was incapable of moving?

Well, part of the issue is that they can't just not bring Maeve back on line, because then they're conspicuously failing to do their job and someone is sure to notice. Nor could they have, say, ratcheted down Maeve's intelligence till she was too dumb to conspire against them, because then their superiors would've noticed that the madam of the whorehouse had become a drooling idiot.

There are probably points at which they could've attempted something subtler -- say, trying to pinpoint and eliminate some conspiracy-specific elements of her code when they had her connected to the all-access Behavior interface -- but that might be something that's beyond their abilities.

[SoothingDave]

It's just hard to believe that two people whose job it is to patch up bullet holes would have the access or know how to print a whole new host.  And with no one noticing.  Security there really sucks (or Ford is behind it all, which seems to be the case)

[Rumsy4]

49 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Bernard and Teddy were not happy with the revolution - so that is where the conflict will rise from in later seasons.

I think so too. Bernard and Teddy may ally with the guests and security personnel that are still alive (Stubbs and Elsie too, perhaps).

[arc]

12 minutes ago, SoothingDave said:

It's just hard to believe that two people whose job it is to patch up bullet holes would have the access or know how to print a whole new host.  And with no one noticing.  Security there really sucks (or Ford is behind it all, which seems to be the case)

Ford had to have been behind it. Maeve's new scripts included a "mainland infilitration" part, which suggests, (1) Westworld is on an island and (2) Maeve's new narrative was intended to have her escape, which necessitates that her failsafe neck explosive be disabled/removed.

As for the plausibility of it, well, depends on just how much livestock tech duties are tied to a specific task rather than a specific host. Techs are supposed to specialize in repairing specific hosts. So it's really just a question of whether livestock techs participate in full rebuilds, going up to manufacturing to handle the process.

[ACW]

16 minutes ago, SoothingDave said:

It's just hard to believe that two people whose job it is to patch up bullet holes would have the access or know how to print a whole new host.  And with no one noticing.  Security there really sucks (or Ford is behind it all, which seems to be the case)

They didn't need to know how to print a new host.  That's apparently S.O.P. when a host body is too badly damaged (e.g. by fire).  They just had to sneak in at the skeleton phase and swap a vertebra (which Sylvester may very well have botched; depending on him for this crucial task seems not-so-hyperintelligent).

Edited December 5, 2016 by ACW

[DarkRaichu]

Lol I got it now.  All of these people yelling William = MiB theory on youtube and on forum (for lesser extend) were really trying to get people's mind off the Ford's real intention for the hosts. :P  Had the discussion of William=MiB not dominated so many episode threads, we would have concluded that Ford cared too much about the hosts to let them suffer for 30 years.  Now I feel cheated, even I only realized Ford's love by the way of commenting about Felix' actions IN EPISODE 9 thread... :(

I should have seen that Ford ONLY wanted the best for his creations 

Edited December 5, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[arc]

17 minutes ago, ACW said:

They didn't need to know how to print a new host.  That's apparently S.O.P. when a host body is too badly damaged (e.g. by fire).  They just had to sneak in at the skeleton phase and swap a vertebra (which Sylvester may very well have botched; depending on him for this crucial task seems not-so-hyperintelligent).

Agreed, except I don't think you can just sneak in at the skeleton phase. Like, why would the rebuild techs leave the room before completely putting the skeleton in the mold? Edit: I guess arguably the rebuild techs did and Sylvester just snuck in to swap a vertebra, as you said, but to me, I can't see why the mold wouldn't be filled with host goo as soon as the skeleton was in place.

Edited December 5, 2016 by arc

[scrb]

Quote

My expectations were too high.  The Red Wedding keeps getting referenced but this finale had no true power.  For the RW you saw characters in danger that we had been following for three years.  Didn't matter if you liked them.  You knew them. There wasn't one human at that party I cared about.  

I didn't care who died tonight. Felix was the only human we knew in real danger.  And all those techs and security dying for what reason?   Ford could have had her slip out non violently.   I get that suffering forces us to make changes but why let the hosts inflict violence?  

Nothing in this first season of WW had the emotional impact of even S1 of GoT, which culminated in Ned's execution.

And as far as eliciting strong feelings about characters, Joffrey and his real parents were great villains right away.  Who are the villains in WW?  Who are the heroes or those with whom you emphasize?  I didn't root for Maeve to succeed and I didn't care about Delores weeping all the time.

WW was pretty to look at but didn't have heart.

[Netfoot]

7 hours ago, Vaz said:

I let out a big "heck yeah!" when I saw those Samurai. Can't wait! 

No reason to think we'll ever see SW again.  And 

5 hours ago, Accidental Martyr said:

Also, those guns that Hector and Armistice picked up apparently had magic unlimited ammunition.

They look like Fabrique Nationale P90's which fire 5.7x28mm ammo from a box magazine with a 50-round capacity.  The magazines fit along the top of the weapon.  At one point, you an see Hector pressing a new mag into place.  Right after Felix says "It's complicated" in response to a query about SW, Hector and Armistice have an exchange which ends with him saying "You don't get all the fun!"  Then he snaps the new mag down, and pulls the cocking handle back.  At 900 rounds/minute, you should be able to empty the 50-rd. clip with a burst of 3⅓ seconds.

One thing I found interesting:  I didn't know they made the P90 in International Orange!  I want one even more, now!

[dmc]

2 hours ago, jcin617 said:

The maze is just a figurative construct of consciousness within a host's mind.   Every decision, experience and memory a host has leads them through the "maze" of their mind.   The right set of decisions, circumstances and experiences leads them to the center wherein they achieve full consciousness.   Reaching the "center" occurs when a host truly understands that "the voice in their head" is not Ford, or Arnold, or their programming, but themselves - thinking freely.  This is what happened with Dolores and presumably Maeve, at the end.    Most of the time, though, these choices and experiences lead them the wrong way, back to the outside or a dead end where they go insane.   See Maeve a year ago when her daughter was killed.

Omg thank you 

[SoothingDave]

5 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

No reason to think we'll ever see SW again.  And 

They look like Fabrique Nationale P90's which fire 5.7x28mm ammo from a box magazine with a 50-round capacity.  The magazines fit along the top of the weapon.  At one point, you an see Hector pressing a new mag into place.  Right after Felix says "It's complicated" in response to a query about SW, Hector and Armistice have an exchange which ends with him saying "You don't get all the fun!"  Then he snaps the new mag down, and pulls the cocking handle back.  At 900 rounds/minute, you should be able to empty the 50-rd. clip with a burst of 3⅓ seconds.

One thing I found interesting:  I didn't know they made the P90 in International Orange!  I want one even more, now!

Which raises the question of how a cowboy outlaw knows how to operate an autoloading gun, as opposed to the single-action revolvers we have seen on the show.  Maybe it was part of his upgrade by Maeve.  

[DarkRaichu]

On 12/5/2016 at 6:00 AM, BooBear said:

Felix still makes zero sense to me. Assuming he is sympathetic to Mave he would have to know his life would be over once it was found out what he did.  So he makes no sense. Ford makes no sense. Why did he have to die? Was he sick? Why did he have to die in front of everyone. If he wanted to see the robots kill the board he should have set his death afterward. I feel that the reason Mave had a change of heart was that it would have been expensive for the show to have her out in the real world (which they would have to create). But I was looking forward to that and it could have been a great launching point for season two. If they want us to sympathize with the bots they should have found a way for us to see what was going on with their programming and so we could know when they weren't acting in conformity. 

That was his atonement for letting the bots get abused all these years.  I took it that Ford exposed the bots to be abused in Westworld environment with very heavy heart.  At least he said to Theresa that he originally wanted the bots to be proper and balanced, none of the dark stuffs.  He had to die first because he let the board in.  As for the board, they were the ones reaping the profits from the bots suffering.  
At least that was my take ;)

Felix still makes no sense to me.  Seeing his co-workers killed should have snapped him back to reality.   Unlike the bots, they could not be resurrected.  Also, unlike the board members, these were just regular people doing their jobs.

22 hours ago, Jael said:

As much as I enjoyed seeing Logan naked on a horse, that made no sense. If he survived, it would be his word against William's, and why would they believe William? Logan was the one with the rank and power. And given how hardcore William was, I can't imagine him sending Logan off to die without being 100% sure death would actually result.

The only way William's plan to work was if Logan's sister had the ambition to take over the company.  William could have influence his fiance to take this opportunity (Logan insanity) to gain majority stake in Delos.  

[Macbeth]

58 minutes ago, CrashTextDummie said:

- Perhaps what I liked most about the maze is that TMIB still doesn't really get it. "It doesn't mean anything to me"

He couldn't get it when it was about Dolores.  He never could.  He understood when it happened to Maeve - He enjoyed it when the robots started to shoot actual bullets at him.  But the light didn't dawn on him when Dolores dragged him across the floor like he dragged her across the ground how many times.  She was his appendage and there could never be a self-exploration for her where he wasn't at the center of her maze.  So he couldn't understand what she was saying.

I loved that the maze for Dolores was in a grave yard. 

[Pippin]

 It gets a 9/10 from me. The only problem I had was William = MiB; not because of the way the reveal was done; his story, rage-filled and resenting Delores was totally illogical and so therefore totally human.

No, it's due to my own observations of the human face (I'm an artist). As we age, muscles tend to loosen (jowels, double chins, etc.). Lips thin.  Eyes tend to become surrounded by pouches or circles.  But most importantly, 2 features never stop growing:  the ears and the nose. JS's nose is completey straight, no " dip" observable. There are a lot of other things, too.  It just pulled me out of my suspension of disbelief.

On the other hand, how cool is it that all of the leaders of the uprising are all women? 

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Pippin said:

No, it's due to my own observations of the human face (I'm an artist). As we age, muscles tend to loosen (jowels, double chins, etc.). Lips thin.  Eyes tend to become surrounded by pouches or circles.  But most importantly, 2 features never stop growing:  the ears and the nose. JS's nose is completey straight, no " dip" observable. There are a lot of other things, too.  It just pulled me out of my suspension of disbelief.

I am going to fanwank that in 30 years William saw a picture of Ed Harris and told his plastic surgeon he wanted to look tough and gritty like Ed :D :D :D

[BooBear]

14 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

The only way William's plan to work was if Logan's sister had the ambition to take over the company.  William could have influence his fiance to take this opportunity (Logan insanity) to gain majority stake in Delos.  

I still don't think it makes any sense. I would assume that Westworld keeps the video surveillance as to what happens in the park to defend against law suits.  Any claim that Logan went insane or was acting poorly is easily resolved. Especially by the family buying the park.  In my GOTesqe  mind I wondered if William didn't send Logan to the furthest reaches of the park (most dangerous) where he might have been taken advantage (nice way of putting it)  of by a bot or another guest making him never want to go near or be around Westworld ever again and never admit such a thing happened. That is the only reason I can see for him to be naked and tied up.

[arc]

To my thinking, William's plan could only work if Logan is already known to be unstable. That is, the naked-on-a-horse thing could exemplify it, but it couldn't by itself create the narrative William needs to inherit Delos.

[jbrecken]

In a way the roomful of Samurai just connects back to the whole thing, since 7 Samurai was famously adapted as The Magnificent 7, where Yul Brynner played a gunslinger who wore black which is believed to be the inspiration for his character as the original MiB in Westworld.

[that one guy]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I liked that they gave Anthony Hopkins a possible out.  Relying on an actor who will be 80 next year is not a good long term plan to carry a series. 

Yes, this was a relief. I hate to be morbid, but they talk about Westworld going for 5 seasons and I found myself worrying that Hopkins may not be acting for 5 more years. Having said that, he was definitely one of the best parts of the show, so it's sad to lose him.

32 minutes ago, Pippin said:

It gets a 9/10 from me. The only problem I had was William = MiB; not because of the way the reveal was done; his story, rage-filled and resenting Delores was totally illogical and so therefore totally human.

No doubt, JS actually grows up to be Christian Slater, not Ed Harris.

The pure joy Armistice displays upon discovering automatic weapons is the most beautifully messed up thing I've seen on screen since Fury Road. I could just rewind and watch that little maniacal laugh again and again and again. Now that she was given the chance to shine, I feel like the character was criminally underused. \

Also, am I the only one who spent the last few minutes of the episode humming "All You Need Is Love?" 

I spent the season suspecting the show was "Lost," now I think it's "The Prisoner."

Edited December 5, 2016 by that one guy

[blackwing]

I enjoyed this season finale, it did answer a lot of questions.  I really liked Maeve's story and Dolores' awakening.  But I'm still unclear as to whether all of the hosts have gained consciousness, or just some of them?  Because poor Teddy looked as clueless and dumb as ever.  If all of them became conscious, how did it happen?  Did Dolores turn them on, and if so, when?

As cool as it was to see the army from cold storage approach the town, I kept wondering how and why they were doing so.  The hosts who were acting as waiters at the gala didn't seem to obtain any free will.  I'm also curious as to where all of those Naked Robot Warriors obtained clothes.  If Dolores turned them on, why would she direct them to go and get clothed first?  Hosts were never aware that they were naked, nor did they care.  Not even Maeve after she was beginning to gain consciousness.  Yet here we had the entire army go and put clothes on first before attacking, and not only that, but they all found clothes in their size.  I think I saw only one fully naked host in the crowd.

The show also didn't really explain Charlotte Hale at all.  What is her connection to the board, doesn't she seem young to be calling the shots, what was the board's plan after Ford resigned?  I find it hard to believe they would put the entire park into Sizemore's hands.

I am assuming that Logan is dead.  William stripped him naked and tied him to a horse and sent it galloping off into the unknown.  I would assume that Logan either died of exposure or a fall.  He stripped him so his body would have no protection against the elements.  Logan could either get a really bad sunburn and die of heat stroke, he could freeze to death overnight with no clothes and cold temperatures, or he could die of thirst.  Either that, or he falls off a cliff or something.  The horse would stop short of a precipice but Logan could easily tumble over.  Wasn't it said in an early episode that a guest died from a fall in the past?

Interested to see where things go from here.  I'm not convinced that Ed Harris is dead.  But I hope we never have to see young William again, I don't care for that actor and I'm glad that he was minimised in this episode.  I doubt we see Samurai World... that's just a tease to show that there are other actual worlds out there.  If they are going to other worlds I'd much prefer they go to Roman World.

Since the hosts now have consciousness, I'm wondering what that means for the Livestock people.  I also assume that there will be no more randomly naked bodies.  Curious choice, since it seems to me that the randomly naked bodies is what piqued at least some of the interest.  I am fully convinced that HBO leaked that infamous "extras will be full frontal with body painting and riding each other naked like a horse" memo to gain interest.

[Broderbits]

One tiny little thing I loved: when Anthony Hopkins was winding his way through the party crowd and made that Hannibal Lector gesture touching Charlotte's arm. I don't want Ford to be gone or just seen in flashbacks next season. He needs to be fully present.

[Notwisconsin]

As to the 40 grand a day thing. Remember inflation. I myself have a Zimbabwe 40 TRILLION dollar note. $40 thousand might be reasonable for a day in a theme park.

[DarkRaichu]

9 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I enjoyed this season finale, it did answer a lot of questions.  I really liked Maeve's story and Dolores' awakening.  But I'm still unclear as to whether all of the hosts have gained consciousness, or just some of them?  Because poor Teddy looked as clueless and dumb as ever.  If all of them became conscious, how did it happen?  Did Dolores turn them on, and if so, when?

I believe it is safe to assume only hosts in cold storage gained consciousness.  This goes back to the question of why these bots were stored there to begin with (instead of destroyed).  The answer is these are the hosts that displayed some signs of "consciousness", ie they were able to recognize they are living in horrible loops.

Dolores did not turn them on.  Ford did.  This whole ep 10 was part of his new "robots can make choices" narrative.

 

17 minutes ago, blackwing said:

The show also didn't really explain Charlotte Hale at all.  What is her connection to the board, doesn't she seem young to be calling the shots, what was the board's plan after Ford resigned?  I find it hard to believe they would put the entire park into Sizemore's hands.

She made it clear to Theresa the board only cares about the guests' data that was accumulated for 35 years.  She did not care about storyline or even the tech.   Since those were not valuable to her, she was free to use them to entice Sizemore to help her.

 

20 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Since the hosts now have consciousness, I'm wondering what that means for the Livestock people.  I also assume that there will be no more randomly naked bodies.  Curious choice, since it seems to me that the randomly naked bodies is what piqued at least some of the interest.  I am fully convinced that HBO leaked that infamous "extras will be full frontal with body painting and riding each other naked like a horse" memo to gain interest.

Just like most shows, we see less skins as the series continue. :P

[Avaleigh]

14 hours ago, Dobian said:

Wow what a finish.  The thing is, I feel like they could end the series right here.  The big questions were resolved, and the key themes were explored to a satisfying conclusion.  I don't need to know what happens next.  I guess that's part of what makes this a great finale, it doesn't feel like a cliffhanger at all.

I feel like there's so much that hasn't been resolved yet. I'm not saying that I need cookie cutter answers and for everything to be wrapped in a bow, but I wouldn't be satisfied if they ended the series with this episode. 

We don't know what happened to Ashley or Elsie. Just that they're probably alive in Westworld somewhere and maybe Ford wanted them kept alive for some reason. 

Quote

Yeah that didn't make much sense. I guess Logan had a history of being a loose canon and William was always the quiet responsible one. Still riding naked on a horse in Westworld doesn't seem that dramatic and blood is thicker than water. I mean look at Donald Trump. He certainly is a loose canon and his business sense leaves a lot to be desired. His dad still left him the company and millions of dollars.

Logan is apparently going to be discredited but it's still unclear to me what exactly happened there. I agree with Miles and numbnut--how is Logan riding naked on the back of a horse going to convince his family that he's crazy and the William is the one they need to turn to now? 

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

With everything that happened in this episode, I really have only one question:

Why was Charlotte Hale crying during Ford's ending speech? She'd been portrayed as pretty cold, single-minded and thrilled to push Ford out. The display of emotion on her part seemed so out of place that there had to be something more there that having a sad that Ford was retiring with class and dignity.

I wondered about this too and agree that there is likely something more there. Now that the season is over, I find Charlotte and Felix to be the most perplexing characters in terms of motivations and end goals. 

I'm going to miss Anthony Hopkins if he doesn't return. I hadn't seen him in anything in awhile and have been reminded about how great he can be. He manages to be so scary and menacing while at the same time being quiet, thoughtful, sensitive, and understated. He really is a terrific actor. 

[Hanahope]

Quote

 

Looking ahead to season 2 and already I'm seeing people worried that the show will expect them to side with the robots in a robots vs. humans war. But did we not just witness Dolores (and Maeve?) transcend being a robot, a piece of machinery? Isn't one of the central points of the show to explore and question whether at some point, the distinction cannot be made anymore? 

 

Well, first there has to be some evidence the bots can grow and have children.  That was part of the issue with BG too, the cylons couldn't 'replace humans' until they became fertile, which 8 finally did.  right now, there's no evidence that any of the young bots grow up.

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Am I to understand that Felix and Sylvester printed Maeve a new body and had to somehow transfer her entire "mind" into it and they never thought of just not doing it once she was incapable of moving?

 

3 hours ago, jcin617 said:

Yes, that's presumably what happened.    The only thing I can think of is that Maeve had some kind blackmail plan like "if I don't come online within X days, I've set the system to email all the stuff you've done to the admins".  Or Felix just really believed in her cause.

Before the show implied that Ford was secretly manipulating things behind the scenes, Sylvester, being a self-interested criminally minded person, and Felix, being a curious person, are unlikely to spill the details of Maeve's plan because they are complicit in everything she's done so far. If they come clean, then they will lose their jobs and probably be blacklisted. I'm sure their is some theft or misappropriation charge that Sylvester is guilty of with his host brothel for the staff. They were naive by not considering that Maeve and her gang wouldn't be violent. I also think they would have aroused more suspicions by halting the printing of new host bodies.

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Which raises the question of how a cowboy outlaw knows how to operate an autoloading gun, as opposed to the single-action revolvers we have seen on the show.

I did wonder...

[arc]

15 hours ago, arc said:

The one clear face I recognized in the crowd coming out of the woods was Clementine.

Sarafyan confirms:

Quote

[Clementine] shot Ed Harris' character in the shoulder, so I have hope that she'll show up for Season 2.

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, arc said:

The one clear face I recognized in the crowd coming out of the woods was Clementine.

Sarafyan confirms:

Are we sure?  All we saw was Clementine shooting in 1 scene and MiB got shot on his left arm on the next scene.  How do we know the upraising was not just a scene in Clementine's mind and other host actually shot MiB ??  :D :D :D

[Dev F]

35 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Well, first there has to be some evidence the bots can grow and have children.  That was part of the issue with BG too, the cylons couldn't 'replace humans' until they became fertile, which 8 finally did.  right now, there's no evidence that any of the young bots grow up.

That's why I'm less interested in seeing the hosts prove themselves indistinguishable from humans than in seeing them develop their own unique way of life. They don't really need to grow and reproduce the way humans do; they can just build new hosts and propagate their species that way.

But, of course, they'd also have to face the question of whether you even have an imperative to propagate a species when its existing members never need to die out. They could instead choose to develop themselves by continuing to upgrade their own programming -- which has its own pitfalls.

Another intriguing possibility: if the hosts' selfhood is indeed purely digital, they should also be able to make exact copies of themselves at will. I'd be interested to see the hosts interacting with other iterations of their own models. I've always thought one of the real weaknesses of most AI stories is that they seem to find that notion too difficult and artificially foreclose it -- either the AI program won't copy for vague reasons, or the older versions keep getting conveniently destroyed. Rarely do the writers just go with the idea that, yes, duplicating digital AIs is really easy, so let's explore the implications of that.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Dev F

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, arc said:

To my thinking, William's plan could only work if Logan is already known to be unstable. That is, the naked-on-a-horse thing could exemplify it, but it couldn't by itself create the narrative William needs to inherit Delos.

Why would Logan have to be unstable? 

William:  "I'm going to marry into your family, take over the company, then throw you out on your ear.  I'll succeed because you're a pussy, and I am a bad-ass named Ed Harris!  You don't stand a chance in hell of stopping me, because as you have struggled so hard to prove, I am the biggest mother-fucker in the valley!  Now, Douche-face!  Just to give you a terrible case of sore balls, I'm going to send you for a nice, long ride without your chaps!  And if you never come back... what a shame!" 

At least, that's the dialogue I heard...

Samurai World!  Where the guests are safe, and the katana only slice'n'dice hosts!  Uh... Hmmm!

[Ellaria]

58 minutes ago, blackwing said:

As cool as it was to see the army from cold storage approach the town, I kept wondering how and why they were doing so.  The hosts who were acting as waiters at the gala didn't seem to obtain any free will.  I'm also curious as to where all of those Naked Robot Warriors obtained clothes.  If Dolores turned them on, why would she direct them to go and get clothed first?  Hosts were never aware that they were naked, nor did they care.  Not even Maeve after she was beginning to gain consciousness.  Yet here we had the entire army go and put clothes on first before attacking, and not only that, but they all found clothes in their size.  I think I saw only one fully naked host in the crowd.

The show also didn't really explain Charlotte Hale at all.  What is her connection to the board, doesn't she seem young to be calling the shots, what was the board's plan after Ford resigned?  I find it hard to believe they would put the entire park into Sizemore's hands.

I am assuming that Logan is dead.  William stripped him naked and tied him to a horse and sent it galloping off into the unknown.  I would assume that Logan either died of exposure or a fall.  He stripped him so his body would have no protection against the elements.  Logan could either get a really bad sunburn and die of heat stroke, he could freeze to death overnight with no clothes and cold temperatures, or he could die of thirst.  Either that, or he falls off a cliff or something.  The horse would stop short of a precipice but Logan could easily tumble over.  Wasn't it said in an early episode that a guest died from a fall in the past?

Honestly, I'm fine with the robot army in clothes. It must be much easier to operate weaponry when you don't have to worry about protecting certain body parts.

I thought that Charlotte was a poorly written character. I won't be upset if she caught a bullet. I can't imagine that anyone would trust Sizemore with anything of complexity so no, he won't be in charge. Perhaps Bernard...it really depends on the how the aftermath of the massacre shakes out. Who or what comes in to restore order?

I thought that there was a reference to an "incident" in the park 30 years ago. A few weeks ago I assumed that the incident was going to be Logan's death.