S06.E10: Wish You Were Here

[MaiLuna]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Mother Superior was found in "the woods".  So Blue was going to hide the baby in Storybrooke Forest?  I know we're not supposed to think that's important but what?!

But that's a perfect place to raise a newborn baby! Remember baby Robin? 

[Curio]

Quote

Don't know why the heck Regina didn't just wish Emma to be back.

8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

That would have constituted wishing to undo a wish.

 

Technically, wishing Emma back to Storybrooke wouldn't have undone the Evil Queen's first wish. The only thing the Evil Queen wished for was for Emma's wish—to not be the Savior anymore—to be granted. Nowhere in there did it say that Emma had to be sent to an entirely different world where the Dark Curse never happened. Emma could have easily stayed in Storybrooke but just gotten stripped of her Savior Magic. So Wish #1 would take Emma's Savior title away, and Wish #2 would bring Un-Saviored Emma back to Storybrooke. There's no rational reason why Regina needed to go to the AU at all. In fact, that was by far the most dangerous option.

Honestly, what should have happened is this: When the Evil Queen wished for Emma's wish to come true, it would appear like nothing happened. Emma would still be holding the sword in Granny's and everyone would look around all confused. The only thing that would have changed is that Emma could no longer use magic. The Evil Queen would laugh maniacally and gloat that a normal human could never defeat her, and then Hook would shrug and say, "Luv, it doesn't matter if you have magic or not, you can still save this town because you choose to do it. You don't need magic jazz hands or an arbitrary title to tell you who you can or cannot be." "Oh wow, you're right. Guess I should have used those shears weeks ago!" I hate this plot so much.

[Arnella]

There are a lot of things to hate about this episode; the worst being Douchefire being portrayed as a hero again and THAT portrait of him (throwing up in my mouth a little).

Chemistry-less Robin and Regina together again - why?  I guess they like seeing Regina snogging but finally realized they were grossing viewers out with Gold lip-locking so scurried to bring back a bit more acceptable snog partner.

I think I liked fake Henry better than real Henry but that isn't really saying much.

I've always suspected the writers quickly became annoyed that they had to keep Emma around after they fell in love with Regina but seriously writers??  Without Regina's influence, Emma becomes a simpering weakling??  When she was completely abandoned in the real world, she became a badass on her own but here she would have been raised by warriors who would be thinking about any future threats to the kingdom once they are gone and she would be in charge and would have trained her accordingly.  Emma kneeling to Regina - ARGH!   Killing Snowing in front of her didn't bring up any righteous anger but Regina's goodness {shutter} was the thing to snap her out of it - AAAARRRGGGHHHH! 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Arnella

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, MaiLuna said:

But that's a perfect place to raise a newborn baby! Remember baby Robin? 

Maybe Blue was on her way to take Gideon to Little John - who is the only true parent on the show anyway.  

[KingOfHearts]

This episode seems to be getting a lot of praise on Facebook. I don't really get it, to be honest. Regina's snarky lines weren't all exactly knee-slappers.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[justmythoughts]

@KingOfHearts I usually do not reply on facebook pages because it is all SQers, and people who love the show as it has no flaws, douchefire fans, blind Rumbelle shippers. 

But yeah, the episode seems to have fulfilled all those requirements: Belle talking as she is responsible as much as Rumple and hinting their possible return as a true love couple, almost no CS, douchefire picture (insert vomiting emoticon here!), Regina as the hero of the day.

[TheGreenKnight]

I didn't mind the episode, personally. Even though I knew people here would be in an uproar about AU Snow and Charming being killed, I couldn't help but laugh at the way the actors kind of plopped over on the couch, like they were Muppets. lol I enjoyed the scene with Charming and Hook. I low-key ship them.....

I just hope this is the end of TEQ and the next half is focused on Jafar/Gideon.

[kili]

Quote

Maybe Blue was on her way to take Gideon to Little John - who is the only true parent on the show anyway.  

That would be typical of Blue. Little John left town via the last portal with Roland. She was never going to find them in Storybrooke. Blue was probably stumbling around the forest calling for him and ended up playing a demented version of Marco Polo with the Black Fairy.

I still can't believe how useless magical Blue was when the woodcutter attacked Snow. 

Of all the places Blue could have hidden baby Gideon, the only place worse than the woods would have been Gold's shop. She does know Rumple is magic, doesn't she? At least hide him in the Fairy world or another realm or Vancouver (nobody can find you if you hide in Vancouver - just ask Neal).

[YaddaYadda]

I think Blue was leaving the town since she turned back into a fairy and might have been taking the baby to opposite Dark Fairy World, but never had the chance to leave Storybrooke. The Black Fairy showed up, kicked Blue's ass and stole the baby.

I wonder if we'll have a backstory for those 2. Blue banished the Black Fairy and took her wand away, can't imagine the Black Fairy isn't holding a grudge. Also, she's Rumple's mother, so I'm assuming he gets that from somewhere.

[Rumsy4]

Adam is claiming on twitter that the Wish realm was "twisted" and not what would have really happened in the EF. More damage-control.

[DigitalCount]

Wait, so is Regina never going to need to reintegrate Gina? Now that's what I call character developm-- *dies*

[Rumsy4]

35 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Wait, so is Regina never going to need to reintegrate Gina? Now that's what I call character developm-- *dies*

If you mean good old Regina is growing back the Darkness within herself--I agree. Taking this discussion to the spec thread.

[RadioGirl27]

45 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Adam is claiming on twitter that the Wish realm was "twisted" and not what would have really happened in the EF. More damage-control.

At this point it's embarrassing: "it was the EQ wishing to make Emma's wish real, but it was not Emma's wish but the EQ wish", "it's a real realm but the people there is not real but Robin Hood is real". When you need a thousand tweets to explain something you wrote and yet you can explain it in a way that makes sense, you have done something wrong.

[Camera One]

Adam is responding like crazy on Twitter.  

So here's his explanation... now...

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  16 minutes ago
@captainSQloves the wish realm was "punishing" her for the wish -- which overrides biology.  Be careful what you wish for!

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  11 minutes ago
@FordMiss the "history" the wish created was different than the one in real EF.

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  21 minutes ago
@LightEmma4ever @HookEmmaLove I thought it was clear in the episode.  It certainly is part of the discussion of wishes and consequences

Edited December 7, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Adam is just muddying the waters more. He's talking of the Wish Realm as if it was both real and fake. 

ETA:

More gems:

@RippleStchSkein the message was -- love yourself as you are -- if you try to change via genie wish you never know what may happen!

@captainSQloves @CSOUAT95 I said it a coupla times. Snow/charming woulda been great parents!

@captainSQloves I think a loving home is great. Our message is not about parenting. It's about what to do with a genie's wish!

Edited December 7, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

He thought it was "clear in the episode" that it wasn't an alternate timeline.  Yet the "wish" was "Genie of Agrabah, I wish that Emma Swan's wish to have never been the Savior be granted."  If that wish took her to the Enchanted Forest with an elderly Snowing, then what else was the audience supposed to think?  

Jane was going for the analogy of "the bookcase is real but the characters on it aren't".  

Apparently, to truly understand this show, you need a degree in Mind Reading.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  16 minutes ago
@captainSQloves the wish realm was "punishing" her for the wish -- which overrides biology.  Be careful what you wish for!

Who is the "her" to which he refers? That makes so little sense that I have no idea if he is saying Emma or Regina is being punished.

Either Regina killed old Snowing as wish controlled punishment of Emma for not wanting to be a savior.

Or wish realm forced Regina to kill old Snowing as a setback in her good deeds because she made a wish.

I'm thinking the latter since it would make Regina not only an innocent victim but the center of attention.  Either way I guess the biology that got overcome was the heart squeezing?

Quote

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  21 minutes ago

I thought it was clear in the episode.  It certainly is part of the discussion of wishes and consequences

Based on the Captain Charming fight about not knowing where Emma would wish herself to and the exposition on consequences of wishes and the Rumple convo, I seriously think the following is what was going on in the wish realm :

- This was not what EF would have been like.  Its what EF would have been like if Emma had wished herself not the Savior under any circumstances (ironically peace and happiness until Regina showed up).

- The lesson of the wish realm was supposed to be that every savior needs a villain to motivate/inspire them. Snowing was the sacrifice to teach the lesson.

- Robin was a wish reward for Regina.  Its what she 'deserves'.  She'll probably bypass the consequences part because there are two of her

-Henry still exists because Emma would never wish for a life with no Henry

Now they aren't explaining this because they made two oversights in their thinking that make even less coherent twitter explanations more palatable to them:

1) Belatedly realized Emma wished a life with Hook.  I think they know better to spell that out and probably didn't do it deliberately.

2) Didn't think about the fact that if Regina sees Robin as real enough to stay then Snowing are real enough to have been murdered.  I think they didn't connect those dots until it was pointed out to them after airing.

They are just that dumb some times.

-

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Who is the "her" to which he refers? That makes so little sense that I have no idea if he is saying Emma or Regina is being punished.

The "her" was Emma.  It was in response to someone who asked why Emma got none of the traits she would have inherited from Snowing.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The "her" was Emma.  It was in response to someone who asked why Emma got none of the traits she would have inherited from Snowing.

OK. In that context I think its a legitimate explanation. Its a realm where Emma isn't a savior.  That was the wish. 

I can understand why it wouldn't be clear to though and that is on the writers.

[BoPeeps]

They have lost their way.  Totally.  No focus, no cohesive anything.  Disjointed. They can't stay true to their characters because they are constantly redefining them.  Analyzing any of it is pointless.

I imagine it has simply come down to everyone watching for the few specific scenes that highlight whatever character is your favorite.  Sad that such unique potential is almost always wasted.  I wish they had more courage as writers.

[Rumsy4]

32 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The "her" was Emma.  It was in response to someone who asked why Emma got none of the traits she would have inherited from Snowing.

But it still doesn't make sense, because EQ made that wish. Saying Emma is the one to suffer the consequences just because the Evil Queen didn't make a wish for herself is stupid. The EQ did make the wish for herself--she wanted Emma as not the savior.

[ParadoxLost]

14 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

But it still doesn't make sense, because EQ made that wish. Saying Emma is the one to suffer the consequences just because the Evil Queen didn't make a wish for herself is stupid. The EQ did make the wish for herself--she wanted Emma as not the savior.

I hate trying to explain Adam....

But, I interpret it as it being a consequence of Emma's wish itself but not a punishment.  Emma couldn't inherit Snowing traits because that would have pushed her too close to being a savior, nullifying the wish.   Emma didn't actually suffer for those consequences until Regina made a wish to be where Emma was.  Up until then Emma was a princess of a peaceful realm with no war.

[Curio]

I don't care what pretzel-bending logic Adam has to use on Twitter to defend this episode, the sad truth is this was their one shot at telling an AU version of what would have happened to Emma if the Dark Curse was never cast, and they failed. Epically. This was their one and only shot, they'll never explore this scenario again, and the episode wasn't even a showcase piece for Emma. In fact, Regina had by far the most screen time with 30 minutes, and then David had the second-most screen time with 18 minutes. Emma—who should have been front and center in this "No Savior Exists" scenario—only had 14 minutes of screen time. A "What if the Dark Curse was never cast?" plot should always have been more about Emma's story, not Regina's, and the fact that A&E were willing to twist the one AU plot fans have been clamoring for for years into something that benefitted Regina more than Emma should tell you exactly how this series is going to end. Season 1 fooled us into believing we were watching Emma's fairy tale, but A&E have twisted the story to the point where it's actually Regina's fairy tale. The Dark Swan arc was the last time Emma had any major focus, and since that wrapped up, it's been total Regina focus ever since.

Also, Adam saying that Princess Emma wouldn't have actually acted like that in a "real" non-wish scenario doesn't make me feel any better because they were still sending the message that feminine Emma sucks and that diplomacy is worse than violence and magic. Adam claims that Emma's lesson was to accept herself, but why not accept that she has some feminine qualities she's been too afraid to show to the world because of her walls? Why should Emma be ashamed that a part of her likes to pick flowers and hum songs? Why send the message that doing those things somehow makes Emma a weaker person?  

And okay Adam, I'll bite—maybe this Princess Emma was supposed to be cowardly and meek because the Evil Queen wanted her that way. Fine, I guess I can buy that. But that doesn't change the fact that real, totally-not-in-a-wish-world Hook was still lobotomized. You can't blame any of Hook's characterization on a zany wish, so what excuse do you have for making him act out of character and not want to go with Regina to the AU to save his girlfriend? In no freaking realm would Hook just stand around and agree to let Regina go by herself to save Emma. Whenever there have been SQ road trips in the past, Emma has always been present to tell Hook (off screen) that she can handle this by herself. I mean, it still doesn't make a ton of sense why Emma constantly doesn't allow Hook to drive with her and Regina, but at least I can buy that Hook isn't super needy and trusts his girlfriend with the task at hand without being attached to her hip. But in those scenarios, he always can kiss her goodbye and hope for the best. But this episode was different. The way Hook reacted (only two episodes ago!) when Emma got sucked into the Mirror World is exactly how he should have reacted this episode. So why the total change in attitude? The same guy who called Emma's phone 12 times is totally okay with allowing Regina to go by herself while he sits back in Storybrooke waiting for other people to come up with a plan? Sorry, that's total bullshit and there's no way A&E can explain that one without admitting they just didn't want Hook in the AU. They should have knocked him out or made up some wacky rule about how only the person granting the wish can travel to wherever Emma was, but they didn't even do that. There was nothing stopping Regina from sending as many people as she wanted to the AU. Why wouldn't she want some backup? She had no idea where Emma went. For all they knew, Emma might have been sent to the Underworld or that crazy Dark World where Gideon was. Why only trust one person to get the job done? It's like Hook read the script for the episode and knew that Emma was actually kind of enjoying her time in the AU as a princess, so he was like, "Eh, she's happy and gets to celebrate her birthday. I'll let Regina go and fix that issue while I hang out with my future dad-in-law."

I can predict what A&E would say about sending multiple people to the AU: "But the Evil Queen is such a big threat! Hook and Charming were essential in keeping her locked down!" Again, I call bullshit. The Evil Queen has been hanging around Storybrooke the entire season and nobody really seemed to care unless the episode called for it. The Evil Queen is such a non-threat that Snow feels comfortable enough going to school and teaching. So why is it suddenly necessary for two non-magical people to stay behind and keep tabs on the Evil Queen? Why not use Zelena and follow up on the Regina/Zelena argument from last episode? Why didn't Hook and Charming go to Zelena and say, "Hey, sorry we've kind of neglected you this entire season. We heard about the Evil Queen trying to kill you, that sucks. Want to get back at her? Help us steal the genie's bottle from her." Zelena would have been a much better choice to steal the bottle than David because at least she has magic. In order to allow David to get the bottle, he had to bank on the Evil Queen being stupid enough to walk away from the bottle for a few seconds and grab it.

There's a reason why we didn't get to see David, Hook, and Regina discussing her plan to make a wish to go find Emma on screen—there's absolutely no way they could have made that conversation convincing or logical, so they had to shove it to Offscreenville.

Regina: Okay, I have a plan. Since the Evil Queen and I are the same person--
David/Hook: You are?!??! This is news to us!
Regina: I know, I know. Shocking, right?
David: Wait, if you two are the same person, why does your other half hate us so much? Do you secretly not like us deep down inside?
Regina: What?! No... Uhh... No... Of course not. But since we're the same person, that means I get to make a wish, too.
Hook: Perfect! Wish for Emma to come back to Storybrooke.
Regina: Yeahhhhh... I'm not going to do that. I think that goes against the genie rules or something.
Hook: I don't think it does. Emma's wish was only to not be a Savior anymore, she didn't wish to disappear. Bringing her back to Storybrooke as a Non-Savior doesn't undo your first wish.
Regina: I didn't make the first wish, the Evil Queen did.
David: But you just said you two are the same person--
Regina: Ugh, I wish you two would just shut up and let me do my plan!
David/Hook: 
Regina: That's better. Now I'm going to go make the third and final wish, and I'm going to go find Emma by myself and bring her back to Storybrooke, and you two will stay here and deal with it.

And that's how David was able to take ownership of the genie and why Hook was so passive about Emma being gone. Regina made a third wish off screen.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Curio

[PixiePaws1]

Oh  Curio...I shouldn't have read what you just posted  because I was starting to calm down about this ep.....now the urge to hop on a plane, fly to America and paint really rude words on Adam's car has flared right back up.

Colin must have shook his head so hard reading that script that it likely nearly fell.off!

[Camera One]

Quote

"But the Evil Queen is such a big threat! Hook and Charming were essential in keeping her locked down!" Again, I call bullshit.

That's an excellent point.  Emma said to Regina a few episodes ago that when Emma dies, Regina is all Storybrooke has left for protection.  David and Hook would have been defenceless against The Evil Queen, if she had felt like... maybe throwing THEM into a mirror?  Did Regina forget the precious Henry was left in Storybrooke?  Yes, Regina "risked all" to go and find Emma (as Jane put it), but there was no reason why she should have gone alone or at that very moment.  And it's even more unfathomable that she would miss the portal back because she saw Robin Hood.  Heck, bring him along if she wanted to act selflessly... it's not like Regina didn't have magic, and it's not like Robin Hood is a "real person".  In only this show would you have to define what a real person actually is.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Emma said to Regina a few episodes ago that when Emma dies, Regina is all Storybrooke has left for protection.  David and Hook would have been defenceless against The Evil Queen, if she had felt like... maybe throwing THEM into a mirror?  Did Regina forget the precious Henry was left in Storybrooke?  Yes, Regina "risked all" to go and find Emma (as Jane put it), but there was no reason why she should have gone alone or at that very moment.

Here's my take on it: Regina doesn't know how to actually be a hero, so she does what she thinks heroes do, but she fails miserably at the execution. Since she only does hero stuff for personal rewards and not because it's the right thing to do, she does a lot of stupid things like rushing off to save Emma by herself (so she can take all the credit and probably because she doesn't like working with others) and uses the worst tactics possible to get Emma to remember she's a Savior. If Hook, Charming, or Snow went to the AU, they definitely would not have stooped to murder to jog Emma's memories. In fact, we've already had a carbon copy of this episode in Season 3 when Hook was successful at restoring Emma's memories without resorting to violence or murder. (And yes, writers, I'm going to use the word murder. Regina kidnapped Charming and Snow and held their hearts in her hands and was crushing them. That's a premeditated action. If someone kidnapped an innocent person, held a gun to their head, and accidentally slipped and pulled the trigger, they can't say, "It was an accident they're dead, I never meant to pull the trigger!" Well, okay, but you still took the time to do the kidnapping and owned the gun and pointed it at their head and you had your finger on the trigger. You don't win sympathy points for not actually wanting to go through with it.)

And Regina's decision to just stand around and let "fake" Henry kill her was also incredibly stupid. The whole freaking point of the Mirror World episode was to show how desperate Emma is to make sure Henry has at least one mother alive, and with Emma totally certain she's going to die soon, it's Regina's job as the other mother to make sure she stays alive for Henry's sake. Taking a huge and pointless risk by allowing Henry to throw a sword at her without knowing Emma would stop it seems like Regina playing a martyr because that's what she thinks heroes do. But if Henry was actually successful and killed her, guess what Regina? Emma is still stuck in the AU and you're dead, so Henry still loses both of his mothers. And because you didn't want to bring anyone else with you to the AU, no one else could help finish the job and bring Emma home.

Wait, I just realized something...why the heck did Charming not wish to bring Regina and Emma back to Storybrooke at the end of the episode? Why didn't Hook rip the bottle out of his hands and make the wish himself if David was going to be too stubborn? How much thought actually went into the planning of this episode?

[RadioGirl27]

Just now, Curio said:

How much thought actually went into the planning of this episode?

None. The episode was a bad Swan Queen fan fiction, with Regina being a "hero" and Emma groveling at her feet. I bet there is one with a similar plot in ff.net or AO3.

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, Curio said:

Wait, I just realized something...why the heck did Charming not wish to bring Regina and Emma back to Storybrooke at the end of the episode? Why didn't Hook rip the bottle out of his hands and make the wish himself if David was going to be too stubborn? How much thought actually went into the planning of this episode?

Because of plot.

The reason Regina didn't wish Emma back, and the reason didn't wish Emma and Regina back and the reason they didn't keep the magic lamp around was because of Robin. If they wish Emma back from the AU (or Regina and Emma back), then Robin never shows up, and Regina doesn't bring him back to Storybrooke, period. David making the wish for EQ is what made Robin appear.

The entire episode was framed around that. They basically figured out a way to bring Robin back for a handful of episode, they did the wish-AU with that in mind and wrote it around Regina and fucked up royally.

Edited December 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[zumpie]

  28 minutes ago, Curio said:

How much thought actually went into the planning of this episode?

None. The episode was a bad Swan Queen fan fiction, with Regina being a "hero" and Emma groveling at her feet. I bet there is one with a similar plot in ff.net or AO3.

With a bit of FailFire deification (when it should be defecation!) as a bonus.....Emma was literally the wet dream, fap-o-rama of every SwampQueener and BagelSwanner EVER......tho I hope it's merely A&E more trolling than anything else

[kili]

Quote

Adam Horowitz :  I thought it was clear in the episode

He keeps using that word. I do not think it means what he thinks it means.

You would think he might grab a clue when he has to spend half his day responding to confused and outraged fans. What he thought was clear in the episode clearly was not clear.

Please have the next episode start with Bobby Ewing in the shower. I want most of this half-season to have been a dream. Perhaps a nightmare Sleepy had after eating Grandma's Lasagne?  I promise not to complain if that happens. I would welcome a dream excuse at this point.

[tri4335]

8 minutes ago, kili said:

He keeps using that word. I do not think it means what he thinks it means.

You would think he might grab a clue when he has to spend half his day responding to confused and outraged fans. What he thought was clear in the episode clearly was not clear.

Please have the next episode start with Bobby Ewing in the shower. I want most of this half-season to have been a dream. Perhaps a nightmare Sleepy had after eating Grandma's Lasagne?  I promise not to complain if that happens. I would welcome a dream excuse at this point.

Responding in the writers thread.

[jhlipton]

On 12/6/2016 at 7:26 AM, Curio said:

Technically, wishing Emma back to Storybrooke wouldn't have undone the Evil Queen's first wish. The only thing the Evil Queen wished for was for Emma's wish—to not be the Savior anymore—to be granted.  

As you point out later, just SNIP with the shears and done.

21 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

 I couldn't help but laugh at the way the actors kind of plopped over on the couch, like they were Muppets.

Maybe that's why bI'm having a hard time thinking of it as murder...

7 hours ago, Curio said:

This was their one and only shot, they'll never explore this scenario again, and the episode wasn't even a showcase piece for Emma.

I'll have to watch The Wish again (such a chore, I know), but as I recall Vampire Willow got most of the screen-time (because Vampire Willow!!!), Anya and Giles next and Buffy herself was pretty much a minor character.  The big difference was  that The Wish was about the consequences to StoryBrooke Sunnydale and not about what Buffy's life would have been like were she not The Savior.  We got a wee glimpse of Buffy's like -- and she was the main focus there -- but it was not the main point 

[tri4335]

1 hour ago, zumpie said:

With a bit of FailFire deification (when it should be defecation!) as a bonus.....Emma was literally the wet dream, fap-o-rama of every SwampQueener and BagelSwanner EVER......tho I hope it's merely A&E more trolling than anything else

I will say one thing for the writers over at FF or A03, they would've known to tag it as dubious/non consent!

Edited December 7, 2016 by tri4335

[DigitalCount]

Also, did I see Stealthy among the dwarves?

[superloislane]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

I'll have to watch The Wish again (such a chore, I know), but as I recall Vampire Willow got most of the screen-time (because Vampire Willow!!!), Anya and Giles next and Buffy herself was pretty much a minor character.  The big difference was  that The Wish was about the consequences to StoryBrooke Sunnydale and not about what Buffy's life would have been like were she not The Savior.  We got a wee glimpse of Buffy's like -- and she was the main focus there -- but it was not the main point 

That's because the wish was that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale - not that she had never become the Slayer. So the consequences would only be to Sunnydale and the people in it since Buffy was still the Slayer just somewhere else. 

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, DigitalCount said:

Also, did I see Stealthy among the dwarves?

Um, you totally, absolutely, positively did not...

Spoiler

Crap, they're on to us! *goes and hides in the Spoiler thread*

Edited December 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

27 minutes ago, superloislane said:

That's because the wish was that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale - not that she had never become the Slayer. So the consequences would only be to Sunnydale and the people in it since Buffy was still the Slayer just somewhere else. 

Duh!  I definitely have to watch it again!

[superloislane]

I feel the need to watch Buffy now!

[jhlipton]

21 hours ago, superloislane said:

I feel the need to watch Buffy now!

Then my work here is done!

[CCTC]

On 12/7/2016 at 11:45 AM, jhlipton said:

Maybe that's why bI'm having a hard time thinking of it as murder...

Yes - I think the muppet plop was to help show they were not real and Regina did not kill anyone.  Regina seemed to clearly know the whole setting was the equivalent of a dream, which made her last scene with Robin where she failed to go back to the real world where her real son and get Emma back to her real family and friends.  Also, Regina's love sick look did not help matters (and I normally think she is a decent actress).  When Robin was part of the show, they never really sold it that they were this great love, which was necessary for you to believe that Regina would literally be frozen by the sight of what she knew was an illusion.  Other than that, I was actually OK with most of the episode.  David was not the brightest, but at least he tried to do something, and I did enjoy his scenes with Hook.  (Which does make you wonder, why they have not put them in a few more scenes together, since they know a fair amount of people want to see it, they have been saying their relationship is important to what happens later in the season, and it would mean less Henry.)

Superficial note, I enjoyed the enchanted forest costumes, but if you are going to have David dressed up, you might as well have him in leather pants most of the time...  

As much as I disliked the adult Connor story in Angel, I kind of like the actor they have for Gideon.  I am hopeful I will not be as annoyed with the character.  I am also hopeful he won't sleep with one of his parents adult friends (although there won't be the ick factor of that person having cared for him when he was a baby).

Edited December 8, 2016 by CCTC
memory lapse

[Chaos Theory]

There is still so much about this show I actually do like.   I may not like the Emma and Hook pairing and think that the only time I actively dislike Emma is when the show is doing CaptainSwan or whatever the ship pairing name is.  I have come to adapt to it an accept it is a thing and there is so much about the show I still find fascinating.  I am actually looking forward to watching Belle's evil son plot which is surprising.  The show has finally found a way to make Belle/Rumple interesting again.  I still find the Charming family....charming.  

And yes I still love Regina.  I am even looking forward to what the show does with NuRobin Hood.

[pezgirl7]

I just saw a gif set on tumblr that reminded me that Emma called her parents "mommy and daddy" in the AU, and it annoyed me when I was watching the episode, and it still annoys me. Emma is a grown woman with a teenage son. I don't know any adults that call both their parents mommy and daddy to their faces. Occasionally I will hear people, mostly from south, say daddy, but to hear Emma say it was just weird and creepy. Perhaps that was the point though.

[Rumsy4]

27 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Yes - I think the muppet plop was to help show they were not real and Regina did not kill anyone.  Regina seemed to clearly know the whole setting was the equivalent of a dream

And yet, she was ready to let "fake" Henry kill her, and froze upon seeing "fake" Robin. As far as I'm concerned, they can't have it both ways. Regina was callous enough to kill a version of Snowing, but couldn't bring herself to defend herself against a version of her son (even though it was utterly stupid--what would her death accomplish? Emma would be stuck as ever, and her real son would be orphaned). 

[KingOfHearts]

6 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I just saw a gif set on tumblr that reminded me that Emma called her parents "mommy and daddy" in the AU, and it annoyed me when I was watching the episode, and it still annoys me. Emma is a grown woman with a teenage son. I don't know any adults that call both their parents mommy and daddy to their faces. Occasionally I will hear people, mostly from south, say daddy, but to hear Emma say it was just weird and creepy. Perhaps that was the point though.

In a royal family, I could picture "mother and father" much more, especially in front of other people.

Edited December 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

16 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

Emma is a grown woman with a teenage son. I don't know any adults that call both their parents mommy and daddy to their faces. Occasionally I will hear people, mostly from south, say daddy, but to hear Emma say it was just weird and creepy.

I doono about creepy, but I can see the disconnect. This version of Emma had a childlike innocence about her. I think it was a mistake to include Henry in the AU--an absence of Henry would have helped maintain the illusion better. Overall, it was a bad idea to include Henry. One, as Henry's father died, Emma has faced loss and grief, so the no-challenges idea doesn't hold up. Next, Henry grew up like Emma did, but he was ready to fight the EQ and defend his mom. Third, Regina wouldn't fight "Henry", but she and Emma were ready to abandon him to the wish realm, even though he had no parents or grandparents (thanks to Regina). Nothing about Henry fit with the wish realm logic.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Next, Henry grew up like Emma did, but he was ready to fight the EQ and defend his mom. 

Why was Henry trained to be a knight and given a sword when there was supposedly no more battles or evils?

Edited December 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[CCTC]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

And yet, she was ready to let "fake" Henry kill her, and froze upon seeing "fake" Robin. As far as I'm concerned, they can't have it both ways. Regina was callous enough to kill a version of Snowing, but couldn't bring herself to defend herself against a version of her son (even though it was utterly stupid--what would her death accomplish? Emma would be stuck as ever, and her real son would be orphaned). 

This is what I meant to get say, but you said it much better.

The Mommy and Daddy thing kind of makes sense in that even though she looked like a grown woman, she was living out her dream of a fantasy lost childhood (or I could be giving the writers too much credit).  

[Just saw a post that came off as I was typing -- yes, Henry does not make sense in this scenario.  I wonder if they get much fan mail for him, because I would be OK if he was only seen occasionally, like other child actors once they outgrow their role on a show.  They seem to go out of their way to work him in the plot when he could be conveniently off in school.]

[KingOfHearts]

You know, if they wanted to get really creepy, we could have seen Wee!Emma there instead. That would have made Regina look very shady.

Edited December 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Overall, it was mistake to include Henry. One, as Henry's father died, Emma has faced loss and grief, so the no-challenges idea doesn't hold up. Next, Henry grew up like Emma did, but he was ready to fight the EQ and defend his mom. Third, Regina wouldn't fight "Henry", but she and Emma were ready to abandon him to the wish realm, even though he had no parents or grandparents (thanks to Regina). Nothing about Henry fit with the wish realm logic.

Yeah, the sheltered princess who's never faced challenges doesn't fit with the single mom with a dead husband/whatever Neal was in that reality, and if Henry was taught to fight, why wasn't she?

And none of this fits with what the writers are saying about being taught a lesson about wishing. Emma didn't make this wish. She made an offhand remark that she never expected to be made true while she was taking specific action to avoid that wish coming true when she had the opportunity to do it for herself. I'm not even sure what lesson Emma was supposed to be learning, since her life was pretty good (other than the dead husband) until Regina showed up, and the kingdom was happy. The Evil Queen should have been the one learning the lesson, and therefore Regina, since they're the same person (except when they aren't). That's where she should have maybe been torn about tearing Emma out of that after seeing what could have been if she hadn't cast her curse. She saw a successful, peaceful, happy kingdom instead of people who'd been ripped out of their homes into a strange world. She saw an Emma who wasn't doomed to an early death by a fate she had no control over.

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, CCTC said:

 I wonder if they get much fan mail for him, because I would be OK if he was only seen occasionally, like other child actors once they outgrow their role on a show.  They seem to go out of their way to work him in the plot when he could be conveniently off in school.]

He's become an authorial self-insert since Season 4B. He had strange tastes in movies, and gets to play the hero a lot and get the girl.

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

You know, if they wanted to get really creepy, we could have seen Wee!Emma there instead. 

I really wish they had gone with a younger Emma--either wee!Emma or teen Emma (Abby Ross). The childlike innocence doesn't fit with an older Emma who has a 13-year old son. Unless they were going for a "simple-minded" Emma.