OK...What's Next?

[Lunata]

moved to Trump forum

Edited December 6, 2016 by Lunata

[Moose135]

They are buying two aircraft, but even if they have to make infrastructure changes at Andrews AFB (which there shouldn't be much, as the new 747-8 isn't significantly larger than the current aircraft) there is no way it comes in at $4 billion.  I think he's just pissed that they won't be ready while he is in office and he won't get to fly in them.

[Lunata]

well holy hell, just when I thought today's news was bad, it gets even worse and it's not even noon yet.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-iran-nuclear-deal-idUSKBN13V0MJ

'Iran's President Hassan Rouhani said on Tuesday he would not let U.S. President-elect Donald Trump rip up a global nuclear deal, warning of unspecified repercussions if Washington reneges on the agreement.'

So, is this what leads to doing what Donald Trump said he would do in one of his campaign speeches, "bomb the shit out of them". ?

Edited December 6, 2016 by Lunata

[galaxygirl76]

10 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I'd take Jeb.

At this point I'd take the ghost of Abraham Lincoln and an oujia board. 

[possibilities]

2 hours ago, Lunata said:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-iran-nuclear-deal-idUSKBN13V0MJ

I wonder how scary it has to get before even the Republicans are galvanized into taking some kind of action.

The way I understand it, there are at least a few ways to remove Trump from office:

1) Impeachment

2) Electoral College chooses someone else

3) VP and/or Cabinet declares him unfit, Congress agrees (this is what Olbermann was talking about in the video linked upthread)

4) He resigns because they force him to get rid of his conflicts of interest (emoluments clause etc)

5) Audits or recounts change the results and flip the wins state by state for a Clinton Electoral College victory before 12/19

Edited December 6, 2016 by possibilities
added 5th way

[candall]

Time Machine Question:  "Hello, you two-thirds of T voters who consider him America's Last Chance.  Are you willing to risk losing your healthcare, Medicare, Social Security benefits AND the possibility of nuclear engagement as long as it's all . . . different?  Is it okay if that stodgy old 'checks & balances' system bites the dust, and all the new people in charge are corrupt career politicians and Wall Street billionaires?  You're cool with the KKK and Russia?  You're fine with a president who doesn't have any interest in the Constitution or US security updates and will cozy up to any head of state with some primo property for a new hotel--just as long as that bitch Hillary doesn't win?"

Answer:  "YES!!!!!!!!!!"

I'm sorry, it just seems you could have shown T-voters a crystal ball image of the first fifty boneheaded moves--ALL of which are going to hurt them--and they'd still have been totally gung ho on Big Orange.  Why are there dozens of people with "Trumpgrets" instead of millions?  Okay, so the snakeoil sounded enticing and you got suckered--how long before you cancel the autoship on your lifetime supply?

*************************************************************

Ha, I wrote that last week and didn't hit Submit Reply, so it lingered here in limbo.  So many fresh screw-ups to address since then.

 

@Enigma X:   I'd say to text us here as much as possible, for support.  (Let's relax the "What Now?" rules to give Enigma a helping hand.)  Every time your co-workers say something incredibly stupid, just start grinning and hold up one finger to get everyone to pause while you tap away on your phone like crazy.  "Wait, wait, say that one thing again--let me get that down.  No one is going to believe me if I don't repeat that verbatim."

(My father used to say there was no defense against laughter, and this sounds like it could be the perfect spot to apply that.)

Edited December 6, 2016 by candall

[Duke Silver]

The GOP doesn't waste time when it comes to voter suppression at least:

Trump’s Lies About Voter Fraud Are Already Leading to New GOP Voter Suppression Efforts

 

[callmebetty]

4 minutes ago, candall said:

Time Machine Question:  "Hello, you two-thirds of T voters who consider him America's Last Chance.  Are you willing to risk losing your healthcare, Medicare, Social Security benefits AND the possibility of nuclear engagement as long as it's all . . . different?  Is it okay if that stodgy old 'checks & balances' system bites the dust, and all the new people in charge are corrupt career politicians and Wall Street billionaires?  You're cool with the KKK and Russia?  You're fine with a president who doesn't have any interest in the Constitution or US security updates and will cozy up to any head of state with some primo property for a new hotel--just as long as that bitch Hillary doesn't win?"

Answer:  "YES!!!!!!!!!!"

I'm sorry, it just seems you could have shown T-voters a crystal ball image of the first fifty boneheaded moves--ALL of which are going to hurt them--and they'd still have been totally gung ho on Big Orange.  Why are there dozens of people with "Trumpgrets" instead of millions?  Okay, so the snakeoil sounded enticing and you got suckered--how long before you cancel the autoship on your lifetime supply?

*************************************************************

Ha, I wrote that last week and didn't hit Submit Reply, so it lingered here in limbo.  So many fresh screw-ups to address since then.

 

@Enigma X:   I'd say to text us here as much as possible.  (Let's relax the "What Now?" rules to give Enigma a helping hand.)  Every time your co-workers say something incredibly stupid, just start grinning and hold up one finger to get everyone to pause while you tap away on your phone like crazy.  "Wait, wait, say that one thing again--let me get that down.  No one is going to believe me if I don't repeat that verbatim."

(My father used to say there was no defense against laughter, and this sounds like it could be the perfect spot to apply that.)

Even better just give them this website and they can read what we say directly and vice versa.

[Enigma X]

Although the trip was postponed until today (leave in 2 hours), we did have our first meeting, and I had to be in a minivan with five of them yesterday. One person made the remark that Carson is a great choice for housing chief. She said that now "inner city kids will have a real role model to look up to." There was awkward silence, but someone nervously said something like she was surprised by the pick, but the subject was changed. I did say under my breath "happy redlining!" The guy next to me heard and asked me later what did that mean. I explained and he just grinned and nodded like I would do when someone explains to me a view I don't agree with but that was that.

Today, the show is on!

[Chicken Wing]

2 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Although the trip was postponed until today (leave in 2 hours), we did have our first meeting, and I had to be in a minivan with five of them yesterday. One person made the remark that Carson is a great choice for housing chief. She said that now "inner city kids will have a real role model to look up to." There was awkward silence, but someone nervously said something like she was surprised by the pick, but the subject was changed. I did say under my breath "happy redlining!" The guy next to me heard and asked me later what did that mean. I explained and he just grinned and nodded like I would do when someone explains to me a view I don't agree with but that was that.

Today, the show is on!

God be with you.

[callmebetty]

7 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Although the trip was postponed until today (leave in 2 hours), we did have our first meeting, and I had to be in a minivan with five of them yesterday. One person made the remark that Carson is a great choice for housing chief. She said that now "inner city kids will have a real role model to look up to." There was awkward silence, but someone nervously said something like she was surprised by the pick, but the subject was changed. I did say under my breath "happy redlining!" The guy next to me heard and asked me later what did that mean. I explained and he just grinned and nodded like I would do when someone explains to me a view I don't agree with but that was that.

Today, the show is on!

I had to read that twice. So a dig at Obama not being a role model. Yep inner city kids don't strive to achieve to be president and learn about politics. Strive to be a surgeon  (which is impressive ) and one day you can be the head of a very important job you are unqualified for.

Good luck Enigma , we're here for you . 

Edited December 6, 2016 by callmebetty

[candall]

6 minutes ago, callmebetty said:

Even better just give them this website and they can read what we say directly and vice versa.

Why?  They don't give a crap what we think.  (And vice versa.)

But it stings like hell when someone finds you so ridiculous s/he can barely contain the giggles AND thinks the laugh is so rich a bunch of other people will be amused as well.

Good luck, Enigma!  Keep in touch.

[Enigma X]

9 minutes ago, callmebetty said:

I had to read that twice. So a dig at Obama not being a role model. Yep inner city kids don't strive to achieve to be president and learn about politics. Strive to be a surgeon  (which is impressive ) and one day you can be the head of a very important job you are unqualified for.

Good luck Enigma , we're here for you . 

That is how I took it.

I also take issue with "inner city" being synonymous with poor minority people. It screams "the scary, taboo, dirty, diseased, scab on our society that shall stay buried." Maybe I am being overly sensitive but that term just sets off alarm bells for me.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Enigma X

[callmebetty]

3 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

That is how I took it.

I also take issue with "inner city" being synonymous with poor minority people. It screams "the scary, taboo, dirty, diseased, scab on our society that shall stay buried." Maybe, I am being overly sensitive but that term just sets off alarm bells for me.

Well it is almost Festivus perhaps you can have feats of strength and airing of grievances .  Serenity now!

[aradia22]

Quote

In New York, Heroes in Hijabs Face Trump-Loving Haters

I hope this is the exception. I'm passed a few women wearing hijabs in the street (I think they were usually with someone) and a couple of times solo on the subway. No one said anything on the subway or even shot them any nasty looks. They were just treated like everyone else. My best friend doesn't wear anything to cover her hair on a regular basis. I had another friend who wore a hijab every day in middle school but she moved to England (I think) a couple of years ago. We have to be willing to stand up for each other. Barring a situation with guns, there is power in numbers. Women supporting women. I don't think there's really a kind of monolithic sisterhood but I do think that the way we've been socialized, we shouldn't be afraid to reach out and get some support in little or big ways if necessary.

[possibilities]

Voter suppression has always been the Republican Way. They admit it, it's not new and it's not a secret. What I wonder is whether there will ever be an effective movement to combat it.

I edited my "list of ways to stop Trump's presidency" to add a 5th option. Not that I think it will happen, but just thinking about it.

[aradia22]

Ahhhhh! (frustration)

[fastiller]

15 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I don't understand how people can characterize abortion as traumatizing fetus murder as well as casual, easy breezy birth control. Also, if you really think PP is an "abortion factory" I feel like that says more about you than the people you think are performing or having those abortions. And to generalize for a moment, we need to have fewer dudes passing judgment and making decisions over lady bodies. 

Abortion being both traumatizing and totally cazh is the same thing as the "Schrödinger's Immigrant" - simultaneously taking your job and too lazy to work!

2 hours ago, candall said:

 

@Enigma X:   I'd say to text us here as much as possible, for support.  (Let's relax the "What Now?" rules to give Enigma a helping hand.)  Every time your co-workers say something incredibly stupid, just start grinning and hold up one finger to get everyone to pause while you tap away on your phone like crazy.  "Wait, wait, say that one thing again--let me get that down.  No one is going to believe me if I don't repeat that verbatim."

(My father used to say there was no defense against laughter, and this sounds like it could be the perfect spot to apply that.)

Which finger would that be?

[izabella]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Voter suppression has always been the Republican Way. They admit it, it's not new and it's not a secret. What I wonder is whether there will ever be an effective movement to combat it.

I'm doubtful we could change anything even with a movement.

For starters, we could change the voting day from Tuesday to a weekend day - then people who go to work actually have TIME to go vote.  But that will never happen.

[Padma]

Apparently, Holder was really "on it" regarding fighting voter suppression in 2012. I don't understand why Lynch appeared to drop the ball. Surely even with the curtailment of the Voting Rights Act, she had time to anticipate, predict and prepare for a lot of it.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't get the feeling that enough was done that -could- have been done.

[Duke Silver]

I and a few others here have alluded to this idea that the mere existence of the Obama White House contributed to racial anxiety (IMO, the true anxiety this past election, forget about claims of economic anxiety...).

Cornell Belcher: The Real Racial Crisis Is Aversion
 

Quote

 

“When people say they want their country back that is about something larger than simply wanting a job,” Belcher says. “That is them wanting their country back because they feel as though they are losing their country to non-white people.”

This is how segments of white America can complain about the economy regardless of the encouraging jobs reports, be more fearful of Middle Eastern terrorists than the prevalence of guns in America or the Ku Klux Klan, and be increasingly prone to believing false, nonsensical “news” that supports their tribal perspective.

 

[callmebetty]

6 minutes ago, Duke Silver said:

I and a few others here have alluded to this idea that the mere existence of the Obama White House contributed to racial anxiety (IMO, the true anxiety this past election, forget about claims of economic anxiety...).

Cornell Belcher: The Real Racial Crisis Is Aversion
 

And that just depresses me even further .  We have made social progress just not enough. But to some people it's not progress at all. Sigh.

[ruby24]

Well, yes, that's exactly what went on, and that's one of the big reasons I feel such deep despair.

Because here's the thing- how will we ever sustain progress if whenever something really big happens that shows it (a black man being a successful president), all it does is make white people feel that they are being discriminated against? When they have absolutely no reason to feel that way? If non-white people gaining equal rights and opportunities makes white people feel their own rights are being taken away somehow, how do we ever really move forward?

It seems unlikely to happen in my lifetime. And of course I knew these people were out there, but I didn't know it was like a 50/50 thing. That's really depressing. Because what they will continue to do is act out and do things (like elect Trump), which will hurt themselves AND everyone else, while holding the country back.

[twoods]

I'm sorry but that thinking is absolutely ridiculous. Aversion, really? Every time I hear a story about an immigrant (or an American who was born here but doesn't look white) getting yelled at to "go back to your own country" it pisses me off. Shouldn't they go back to their own country? The only people who are technically from this land are the Native Americans. People are so delusional, or just plain dumb. If all the illegals get deported who's going to do the below minimum wage work that they are doing? If companies don't outsource to other countries are people willing to spend double or triple on products and merchandise that are made in this country? I didn't think so. People are so riled up because of what is spewed on twitter and in the media, that they can't rationalize their fear. I'm sure it's real and may have a little validation, but that doesn't excuse you from being a racist jerk and wanting a racist, unqualified idiot as your president.

Maybe if these close minded people actually befriended an immigrant, a gay person, or a Muslim they will realize that everyone is similar- whether it's watching the same sports, similar beliefs, or tastes in movies, music and food. Pisses me off that people can't do this simple task to ease their mind about the "racial crisis".

Edited December 7, 2016 by twoods

[fastiller]

59 minutes ago, Duke Silver said:

I and a few others here have alluded to this idea that the mere existence of the Obama White House contributed to racial anxiety (IMO, the true anxiety this past election, forget about claims of economic anxiety...).

Cornell Belcher: The Real Racial Crisis Is Aversion
 

I've said before that while I know that President Obama being elected isn't the starting point of racism in the US, I think it was the starting point of something in relation to racism in the States.  Something like how it was no longer taboo to say out & out racist crap; something like how much more angry the racism became; something like how much more frightening the racism became.  It's a hard concept to put into words, so forgive the clunkiness.

27 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Well, yes, that's exactly what went on, and that's one of the big reasons I feel such deep despair.

Because here's the thing- how will we ever sustain progress if whenever something really big happens that shows it (a black man being a successful president), all it does is make white people feel that they are being discriminated against? When they have absolutely no reason to feel that way? If non-white people gaining equal rights and opportunities makes white people feel their own rights are being taken away somehow, how do we ever really move forward?

It seems unlikely to happen in my lifetime. And of course I knew these people were out there, but I didn't know it was like a 50/50 thing. That's really depressing. Because what they will continue to do is act out and do things (like elect Trump), which will hurt themselves AND everyone else, while holding the country back.

Yes, it's sad.  It's all about how white men are supposedly no longer in positions of power.  Never mind that they really are still in those positions.

They just don't see themselves as still at the top of the pecking order and it frightens them.  Then along comes a woman and she wants to further diminish their standing?  Not gonna happen.  I'm convinced that any woman would've lost this election, unless she wasn't directly preceded by a black man.  As certain as I am that water is wet, I'm certain of this.

[ruby24]

Yeah, possibly. Although we can't forget that her lead now stands at 2.7 million, and they're now saying she's going to pass Obama's vote total from 2012! So, she was the will of the voters, she was just denied the office because of an archaic, outdated system.

[MulletorHater]

1 hour ago, Duke Silver said:

I and a few others here have alluded to this idea that the mere existence of the Obama White House contributed to racial anxiety (IMO, the true anxiety this past election, forget about claims of economic anxiety...).

Cornell Belcher: The Real Racial Crisis Is Aversion
 

And, anyone who wasn't clear about what "We want our country back!" meant was clearly in denial.  A lot of us knew exactly what it meant when the "tea party" (a/k/a White Citizens Council by any other name) started up their bullshit immediately after President Obama was elected.  My answer to that claim was always, "Back from whom?"  Of course, given that I was one of the people they wanted the country back from, I could never get a straight answer to that question.  This was especially so when I had the cheek to remind the folks who were chanting that canard that the only people who had a right to make that demand were Native Americans.

That's why it was so easy for them to buy into the "birther" nonsense and latch onto the slurs and smears by the likes of Newt Gingrich, Ghouliani, John Sununu and other Romney/Drumpf surrogates.  And, of course, "tea party" darling, Governor Half-Wit of Alaska, made it clear to her rallies of adoring fans that Barack Obama "isn't like us! ... He pals around with terrorists!"  Their willingness to delegitimize President Obama overtly or by their implied consent had nothing whatsoever to do with any "economic anxiety."

The level of vitriol unleashed on this president and his family is unlike anything I've ever seen.  Not to mention the blatant obstruction and the conspiracy by GOP lawmakers to hamstring President Obama at every opportunity.  The government shutdowns...holding the good faith and credit of the United States hostage...the ginned up "scandals" as a pretext to try to impeach him and Attorney General Holder...the rolling back of the Voting Rights Act followed immediately by voter suppression laws...holding Supreme Court Justice nominee Merrick Garland hostage, etc.

That's why whenever corporate media and others tried to put forth this "economic anxiety" argument, I found myself seething.  Especially since some of those same people experiencing this anxiety all but ensured their continued suffering by sending the same people back to Congress every 2-6 years.  Just stop it.  Please.  Don't feed me the most rancid of piss and try to convince me that it tastes like lemonade just because ice cubes were added to it.

[fastiller]

19 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Yeah, possibly. Although we can't forget that her lead now stands at 2.7 million, and they're now saying she's going to pass Obama's vote total from 2012! So, she was the will of the voters, she was just denied the office because of an archaic, outdated system.

You're right.  I mean you're factually right about the numbers, of course! And I hope that at every possible opportunity this fact gets thrown at Petulant-Elect Trumplethinskin.  I just think that there's some part of the population that went into terror at the thought of another term being lead by someone who isn't male & white.

Just now, MulletorHater said:

And, anyone who wasn't clear about what "We want our country back!" meant was clearly in denial.  A lot of us knew exactly what it meant when the "tea party" (a/k/a White Citizens Council by any other name) started up their bullshit immediately after President Obama was elected.  My answer to that claim was always, "Back from whom?"  Of course, given that I was one of the people they wanted the country back from, I could never get a straight answer to that question.  This was especially so when I had the cheek to remind the folks who were chanting that canard that the only people who had a right to make that demand were Native Americans.

That's why it was so easy for them to buy into the "birther" nonsense and latch onto the slurs and smears by the likes of Newt Gingrich, Ghouliani, John Sununu and other Romney/Drumpf surrogates.  And, of course, "tea party" darling, Governor Half-Wit of Alaska, made it clear to her rallies of adoring fans that Barack Obama "isn't like us! ... He pals around with terrorists!"  Their willingness to delegitimize President Obama overtly or by their implied consent had nothing whatsoever to do with any "economic anxiety."

The level of vitriol unleashed on this president and his family is unlike anything I've ever seen.  Not to mention the blatant obstruction and the conspiracy by GOP lawmakers to hamstring President Obama at every opportunity.  The government shutdowns...holding the good faith and credit of the United States hostage...the ginned up "scandals" as a pretext to try to impeach him and Attorney General Holder...the rolling back of the Voting Rights Act followed immediately by voter suppression laws...holding Supreme Court Justice nominee Merrick Garland hostage, etc.

That's why whenever corporate media and others tried to put forth this "economic anxiety" argument, I found myself seething.  Especially since some of those same people experiencing this anxiety all but ensured their continued suffering by sending the same people back to Congress every 2-6 years.  Just stop it.  Please.  Don't feed me the most rancid of piss and try to convince me that it tastes like lemonade just because ice cubes were added to it.

Me too.  I've wondered that for months now.  Out loud, to some "MAGA" idiots.  Never got an answer.

I heard this part in my head in her voice.  Thanks for that!!!

[aradia22]

Quote

For starters, we could change the voting day from Tuesday to a weekend day - then people who go to work actually have TIME to go vote.  But that will never happen.

National. Holiday.

Quote

Petulant-Elect Trumplethinskin

INTO IT. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

That's why whenever corporate media and others tried to put forth this "economic anxiety" argument, I found myself seething.  Especially since some of those same people experiencing this anxiety all but ensured their continued suffering by sending the same people back to Congress every 2-6 years.  Just stop it.  Please.  Don't feed me the most rancid of piss and try to convince me that it tastes like lemonade just because ice cubes were added to it.

This is exactly why I'm not interested in watching that shitty Van Jones special on CNN, nope. Nobody left your asses behind but you and your voting patterns. Nope, not interested in their whining about the democrats leaving them behind. No, that was your republican congressmen and women who blocked policies that Obama wanted to put forth so your asses wouldn't be left behind. But you were too busy believing that he was illegitimate, that he was working for the Muslim brotherhood and that he was smelling like sulfur because he and Hillary are possessed demons/devils, please and bye. They can't continue to suffer enough for me at the hands of their newly elected dictator.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I have sympathy for the "no one listened to our concerns, we feel abandoned!"  but my sympathy peters out and dies on the "So we voted for a blatantly racist, misogynist, who shouldn't be trusted with a locker combination, let alone anything of a sensitive nature....and bonus....he has no fucking clue how to do any of this!"  

It's not like this is going to end well for them either.  

[AntiBeeSpray]

32 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Yeah, I have sympathy for the "no one listened to our concerns, we feel abandoned!"  but my sympathy peters out and dies on the "So we voted for a blatantly racist, misogynist, who shouldn't be trusted with a locker combination, let alone anything of a sensitive nature....and bonus....he has no fucking clue how to do any of this!"  

It's not like this is going to end well for them either.  

I don't have much of that towards them. Really. Sure the dems should have stepped up, but those you mentioned above believed the crap that he spewed. So they made their bed and now have to lie in it. I know it's harsh to say, but I ran out of a lot of that for them long ago. I don't envy what they're all going through, but man... they made one yuuuge mistake in electing Drumpf. 

Exactly.

[OrigamiNightmare]

SSI, Medicare/Medicaid, Women's Rights & Healthcare, & HUD Housing ... This is gonna be a fun 4yrs for me & others like me! ... Oh & of course there's this too, JFC

http://www.aapd.com/take-action-to-save-the-ada/

They want to weaken the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act)

Edited December 7, 2016 by OrigamiNightmare
Forgot to add

[AntiBeeSpray]

22 hours ago, possibilities said:

I know it's hard to talk with certain people, and I'm as guilty as anyone of not having the patience a lot of the time. But way upthread there was a link to an article by a guy who was raised in the belly of the white supremacist beast and was eventually changed by making friends with people who knew better. He was basically disowned by his family when he stopped sharing their racist views, and if he could change, I think there's at least a little bit of hope for others.

What I think though is that it isn't one conversation that does it. So when you engage with someone, don't expect to see a big dramatic change immediately. But think of it like planting a seed. They don't all germinate, and some of them take time to do so, but the more you plant, the more likely something grows.

It's like how LGBT rights got momentum by people coming out, and straights realizing that we're not monsters, and they can't help but love their family members, neighbors, other people they meet who turn out to be "one of them"-- we still have a ways to go, but the amount of progress on this has been dramatic in my lifetime. It may be hard to fully comprehend this if you didn't live through it, but I'm 51, and in my lifetime-- it's like a completely different world than what I grew up with.

I'm not saying "be patient," or minimizing how enraging or terrifying the situation is. I'm just saying that I think if you do have the stomach to engage, it may help more than it looks like on the surface. If enough of us do it, it will build up to critical mass and make a difference.

Of course, I mostly can't handle it because I'm too upset. But the times I have managed it, or seen other people do so, I really believe it helps, even if it doesn't look like it does.

Van Jones did an interview on The Daily Show tonight, talking about why he keeps trying and doesn't write people off, and I found it really helpful. Comedy Central (or Hulu) usually has the interviews up to stream by morning, if anyone wants to check it out.

I think it's delicate when to engage, and when not to, and how to do it when we do. Just like coming out, there are risks, and benefits, and every situation is different. But I just wanted to say don't entirely give up, and when you do feel able to try, I think it's a worthwhile endeavor, and possibly the only thing that might make a difference.

I don't even bother anymore. Bless those that have the time and the patience to try to reach through to them though. That one guy was a rare exception in my opinion. And those are too few and far between.

Delicate would be an understatement. They don't like hearing something that goes against their Faux News attitude. And then they rail as hard as they can back and just make the whole effort not even worth it.

4 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

SSI, Medicare/Medicaid, Women's Rights & Healthcare ... This is gonna be a fun 4yrs for me & others like me! ... Oh & of course there's this too, JFC

http://www.aapd.com/take-action-to-save-the-ada/

They want to weaken the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act)

I have no words. Oh boy. This is so beyond f'd up.

[OrigamiNightmare]

I know it's not personal, but it almost feels like it at this point. Why do these people hate me so much? I could lose my only source of income (Disabled w/CP), my medical insurance & care, My right to Birth Control & other female health concerns & care, my Section 8/HUD housing, & my Rights not to be discriminated against ... These selfish, ignorant, greedy, thoughtless, "I got mine, fuck everyone else" callous, deeply unprepared assholes could literally tear my life apart ... It's really scary.

[izabella]

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Because here's the thing- how will we ever sustain progress if whenever something really big happens that shows it (a black man being a successful president), all it does is make white people feel that they are being discriminated against? When they have absolutely no reason to feel that way? If non-white people gaining equal rights and opportunities makes white people feel their own rights are being taken away somehow, how do we ever really move forward?

It's actually worse than that.  They see it as non-white people gaining MORE rights than they have as white people.  This is how women's rights are seen - gaining equal rights for women is seen as women getting MORE rights than men.

Every time I go to one of my company's conferences, I make sure to point out to one of my Tea Party colleagues:  Look at this auditorium!  Look at all these people!  Look at all these women and minorities who have more presence and power than white men ...oh, wait, I was looking at the convention center services staff.  It's still a huge room full of rich white men."

[AntiBeeSpray]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

It's actually worse than that.  They see it as non-white people gaining MORE rights than they have as white people.  This is how women's rights are seen - gaining equal rights for women is seen as women getting MORE rights than men.

Every time I go to one of my company's conferences, I make sure to point out to one of my Tea Party colleagues:  Look at this auditorium!  Look at all these people!  Look at all these women and minorities who have more presence and power than white men ...oh, wait, I was looking at the convention center services staff.  It's still a huge room full of rich white men."

Yep. We're all considered to be OTHER. So they figure that we shouldn't have rights.

[BookWoman56]

Maybe someone can enlighten me here, but I've never understood the "illegal aliens are taking our jobs" meme. Every new job I have taken since the I-9 requirement went into effect in late 1986 has required me to provide proof of both my identity and right to work in the U.S. Now, I am sure there are employers who don't bother to check these items, but my guess is that those are employers of migrant farm workers, sweatshop workers, etc., or owners of little "mom and pop" stores. My point is that I am under the impression that to get a decent job in this country, you have to show proof that you are NOT an illegal alien. My guess is that illegal aliens are primarily taking crap jobs that nobody else wants. Yet to listen to all those people wanting to build that wall along the border, it seems that their reasoning is 50% that anyone coming across the border is a hardened criminal intent on causing mayhem in the U.S., and 50% that these people coming across the border illegally are stealing jobs from U.S. citizens, and that's why they themselves (or family & friends) are unemployed or without good jobs. To hear their version of it, their lack of good employment has nothing to do with industries becoming obsolete, jobs becoming automated, not getting training to find other jobs, etc., and instead is all because of the illegal aliens who can waltz right into mainstream U.S. jobs. So is there some alternate universe in which any illegal alien without documentation can walk into a good-paying factory or office job, no questions asked, or is the working theory of those wanting the wall that all these illegal aliens have fake documentation so that they can take the good jobs that would otherwise go to legal residents of the U.S.?

Otherwise, I will continue in my assumption that there are a good number of people out there who simply look for any convenient scapegoat to blame when they don't automatically get everything they want handed to them with minimal effort on their part.

[AntiBeeSpray]

6 minutes ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

I know it's not personal, but it almost feels like it at this point. Why do these people hate me so much? I could lose my only source of income (Disabled w/CP), my medical insurance & care, My right to Birth Control & other female health concerns & care, my Section 8/HUD housing, & my Rights not to be discriminated against ... These selfish, ignorant, greedy, thoughtless, "I got mine, fuck everyone else" callous, deeply unprepared assholes could literally tear my life apart ... It's really scary.

Yea it is. Seeing anything good that has come from the government in any way be under threat is not a good thing at all. 

[aradia22]

I have some quibbles with a few things he said in this video but... oof. Olbermann gets credit for keeping up a level of anger I cannot maintain. Frankly, I think we should all be this angry but it's not healthy to keep it up day after day. I am being supportive. I am being hopeful. I am biding my time looking for the little ways I can act. I am trying to let myself be sad when I need to be without completely succumbing. And then I go watch Keith and let him be angry for me. 

[Duke Silver]

I was born in '86, so obviously have zero personal recollection of this....I was struck by this when it popped up in my Twitter feed.  Tell me again why Republicans act like Obama is some sort of extreme, tax-crazy socialist?  <---rhetorical question (I hope this is obvious)

https://twitter.com/kurteichenwald/status/806300155402211328

[Pixel]

18 hours ago, possibilities said:

I know it's hard to talk with certain people, and I'm as guilty as anyone of not having the patience a lot of the time. But way upthread there was a link to an article by a guy who was raised in the belly of the white supremacist beast and was eventually changed by making friends with people who knew better. He was basically disowned by his family when he stopped sharing their racist views, and if he could change, I think there's at least a little bit of hope for others.

What I think though is that it isn't one conversation that does it. So when you engage with someone, don't expect to see a big dramatic change immediately. But think of it like planting a seed. They don't all germinate, and some of them take time to do so, but the more you plant, the more likely something grows.

It's like how LGBT rights got momentum by people coming out, and straights realizing that we're not monsters, and they can't help but love their family members, neighbors, other people they meet who turn out to be "one of them"-- we still have a ways to go, but the amount of progress on this has been dramatic in my lifetime. It may be hard to fully comprehend this if you didn't live through it, but I'm 51, and in my lifetime-- it's like a completely different world than what I grew up with.

I'm not saying "be patient," or minimizing how enraging or terrifying the situation is. I'm just saying that I think if you do have the stomach to engage, it may help more than it looks like on the surface. If enough of us do it, it will build up to critical mass and make a difference.

Of course, I mostly can't handle it because I'm too upset. But the times I have managed it, or seen other people do so, I really believe it helps, even if it doesn't look like it does.

Van Jones did an interview on The Daily Show tonight, talking about why he keeps trying and doesn't write people off, and I found it really helpful. Comedy Central (or Hulu) usually has the interviews up to stream by morning, if anyone wants to check it out.

I think it's delicate when to engage, and when not to, and how to do it when we do. Just like coming out, there are risks, and benefits, and every situation is different. But I just wanted to say don't entirely give up, and when you do feel able to try, I think it's a worthwhile endeavor, and possibly the only thing that might make a difference.

I love all of this and agree. I say this as someone who dumped people off of FB for voting Trump, and while I'm not sorry to have cut those people out, I do kind of wish they could still see the actual facts and truth I'm posting. Maybe eventually some of them would have been swayed. I just couldn't stomach the thought of seeing their support for him and for hate on my feed, and am still not ready to. 

[EyewatchTV211]

1 hour ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

I don't have much of that towards them. Really. Sure the dems should have stepped up, but those you mentioned above believed the crap that he spewed. So they made their bed and now have to lie in it. I know it's harsh to say, but I ran out of a lot of that for them long ago. I don't envy what they're all going through, but man... they made one yuuuge mistake in electing Drumpf. 

Exactly.

Dems stepping up wouldn't have done shit. This election was NOT about policy for trump's voters. Though I really want them to step it up now to fight back against all of trump's and his people's upcoming awful acts.

[AntiBeeSpray]

3 minutes ago, VMepicgrl said:

Dems stepping up wouldn't have done shit. This election was NOT about policy for trump's voters. Though I really want them to step it up now to fight back against all of trump's and his people's upcoming awful acts.

Maybe. But I meant in regards to them trying to go after that part of the electorate. Not leaving them out in the wind so to speak. I agree with you on that though. 

[EyewatchTV211]

2 minutes ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Maybe. But I meant in regards to them trying to go after that part of the electorate. Not leaving them out in the wind so to speak. I agree with you on that though. 

But what would have been an effective way to go after them? Dem policies are already much more beneficial for that demographic, which they don't know/don't really care about. I read that Hillary should have emphasized her blue collar roots more. That is a possibility I guess. But dems need to be careful not to go too hard for that group at the expense of their other supporters who should only be growing in number due to demographics. The electoral college is a real problem.

[AntiBeeSpray]

Just now, VMepicgrl said:

But what would have been an effective way to go after them? Dem policies are already much more beneficial for that demographic, which they don't know/don't really care about. I read that Hillary should have emphasized her blue collar roots more. That is a possibility I guess. But dems need to be careful not to go too hard for that group at the expense of their other supporters who should only be growing in number due to demographics. The electoral college is a real problem.

Dealing with them from the grassroots level. Instead of how they're dealing with them now. Like what you mentioned in regards to blue collar. Yep. No one wins now. Agreed.

[ChromaKelly]

2 hours ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

I don't have much of that towards them. Really. Sure the dems should have stepped up, but those you mentioned above believed the crap that he spewed. So they made their bed and now have to lie in it. I know it's harsh to say, but I ran out of a lot of that for them long ago. I don't envy what they're all going through, but man... they made one yuuuge mistake in electing Drumpf. 

Exactly.

I really don't know what else the Democratic party is supposed to do to appeal to these voters except start spouting MAGA crap. If they really wanted someone who took their concerns seriously, they had Bernie Sanders (note, I am not a Bernie fan in particular, but Bernie was right there with plans for the working class). They were not flocking to Bernie, they were calling him a Socialist and a crazy person. Trump has nothing but tag lines and fear mongering. Problem is they dismissed Obama because he's black and was "foreign", Hillary - well, they've always hated her, before that John Kerry was too educated and fancy, Al Gore believes in climate change.. so IDK.

[Padma]

I was surprised how underutilized all the white male Republican national security people who endorsed Hillary were in her ads. Same for blue collar workers who had every reason to despise Trump.

That said, she still won the popular vote handily.  And IF she legitimately lost in the battleground states, I think it was Comey's effect in the last 11 days and all the negative fake news stories about her. (I'd still like to know how many Steve Bannon was behind.).

Also questionable was Bill's advice not to respond to Trump's attacks.  I think the pro-Clinton surrogates were underutilized on defense, and on attack too.  Trump was such a weak candidate in so many ways, but they mostly attacked only on character.  However, again, I wouldn't say that any of that is why she lost.

[aradia22]

Quote

 I read that Hillary should have emphasized her blue collar roots more. 

That likely wouldn't have worked. The internet is still flooded with articles about how large and grand her childhood home was. 

[AntiBeeSpray]

15 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

I really don't know what else the Democratic party is supposed to do to appeal to these voters except start spouting MAGA crap. If they really wanted someone who took their concerns seriously, they had Bernie Sanders (note, I am not a Bernie fan in particular, but Bernie was right there with plans for the working class). They were not flocking to Bernie, they were calling him a Socialist and a crazy person. Drumpf has nothing but tag lines and fear mongering. Problem is they dismissed Obama because he's black and was "foreign", Hillary - well, they've always hated her, before that John Kerry was too educated and fancy, Al Gore believes in climate change.. so IDK.

Yep. And the Repubs just continued to spread their propaganda about Socialism. He's a Democratic Socialist. But to them he was nothing more than a Commie. Exactly. Yep. For them, nothing is good enough.