OK...What's Next?

[possibilities]

6 hours ago, Padma said:

So what will Tubby do when China moves its military into Tibet?

He won't notice, and if he notices he won't care. He might even praise it as strong leadership.

6 hours ago, VMepicgrl said:

Oh look, Republicans don't think Putin is THAT bad anymore

Holy fuck.

10 hours ago, Padma said:

It's a total lack of leadership within the Democratic party. No fire, no passion. From the top on down. 

In regard to that problem, Keith Ellison is trying to get a million signatures on a petition to make him the new Democratic Party chair. I didn't know much about him, but he gave a speech tonight where he talked about his ideas for rejuvenating the Democratic Party and he certainly seems passionate. I don't know who else is running for the position, but it's made me think about how it's not enough to focus on resisting the Republicans, we also have to focus on putting the Dems in the position to win.

The chronic gutless, unimaginative, weak and passive way the Dems have demonstrated needs to change. One thing I do agree with is that we need a major change and business as usual is not enough. If anything comes of this debacle, I hope it's that rank and file Dems over throw the party leadership and manage a massive change in how the party operates.

[fastiller]

8 hours ago, callmebetty said:

And why cant everyday people make the same kind of plea? I could pull a handful of posters from here who would make beautiful impassioned speeches to the electoral college and because your not celebrities it would be lost in the weeds. And as the average American we are the ones going to be most affected by this new administration, celebrities are still protected with status and money. 

I think a plea from us 'regular' folks could be more swaying than one from celebs.  I don't have any property abroad, nor do I have the means to buy any, so I'm stuck here; the wealthier among us could make good on the threat to move out of the country if it came to that.

8 hours ago, Padma said:

Great points!  Why -not- say something positive about Hillary?  And ITA that "ordinary people" would probably have had something -better- to say, heartfelt and about affecting real life. Why not mix'em in? Dems aren't elitists!

And tonight Trump is saying Comey "recently" called him and basically said the CIA were lying about the Russian hacking--that it didn't happen, didn't have an effect--to help the Dems and Obama! (This, after his telling Chris Wallace on Sunday that "I don't think it's the CIA that's saying it. It's the Democrats because they just had one of the greatest political defeats in history.")

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/comey-fbi-russia-trump/2016/12/14/id/764008/

We will soon find out what having a pathological liar as president really means--beginning with a continuing discrediting of American institutions so people only trust Trump--and a complete assault on facts.  He lies. Lies and lies and lies. Lies big and lies little.  Its so scary.

A. It's Comey being referred to here, so, grain of salt and all that.
B. I heard someone talking about the difference between the FBI & the CIA.  The FBI (w/o regard to Comey) is law enforcement, they're always going to want hard, solid evidence of a crime before they move forward; the CIA is much less concerned with evidence that can be used in court, they are more 'gut feelingy'.
C. As noted: DJT can't pick a theme, so he tries 'em all to see what sticks.  Eventually one will.

12 hours ago, VMepicgrl said:

Oh look, Republicans don't think Putin is THAT bad anymore

&

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

Holy fuck.

Holy fuck indeed.  Again, St. Ronnie Reagan must be weeping at what's happened to the GOP.

[Totale]

14 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

(Peter Thiel, the POS who also resides on the Facebook Board, was sitting next to Trump today at the tech summit, and is a big time Trump supporter).

Yeah, I had never heard of him at all until it was revealed he funded the Gawker/Hogan trial, and didn't know until a couple of days ago when I read an article on the trial that he was a Drumpfite.  Now think again about Drumpf's position on libel laws, while you consider that  Theil just put a company out of business by winning a libel case where what the defendant had published was the undisputed truth.  Best we can hope for is somebody whispers in Drumpf's ear that that Theil guy is a queer, and they freeze him out.

[MulletorHater]

15 hours ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Well that I can agree on too. But the country was at risk via Cuba. So I wonder if Drumpf would be more like Castro here in some ways. But yet Putin could be as well. Talk about one f'd up situation to even think about.

I had my annual physical yesterday; my physician is a first-generation Cuban American, who recalls her family losing everything during the Cuban revolution.  She mentioned that several of her patients have either eaten everything in sight since the election, or are woefully undernourished because they aren't eating the way they should.  She also mentioned the feelings of malaise, depression and anger a lot of them have.  She's absolutely livid and frightened all at that same time.  She said a couple of things to me during my exam that were quite sobering.

She quietly stated that she has seen this particular act before.  She noted the number of generals or military personnel that Drumpf is trying to appoint to cabinet positions.  She stated that all it takes are a few generals with guns, the closing of the banks for a couple of days under some pretext, and you have a despot on your hands.  Not to mention the appointment of family members to official and unofficial positions of power.  And, the telling factor for my doctor was Castro's alignment with Communist Russia.  And, look at what we've got here.  

My doctor and her 14-year-old son are terrified.  She even told me that her son wondered how he would get through high school with Drumpf in power.  She openly marveled at how the education system in this country failed so many voters who appear to be not only ill-informed, but simply don't care.  

My doctor said that she will be attending the Million Woman March the day after the election and she hopes to see me there.  

Edited December 15, 2016 by MulletorHater
Deleted the letter "A" after my last sentence

[callmebetty]

21 minutes ago, MulletorHater said:

I had my annual physical yesterday; my physician is a first-generation Cuban American, who recalls her family losing everything during the Cuban revolution.  She mentioned that several of her patients have either eaten everything in sight since the election, or are woefully undernourished because they aren't eating the way they should.  She also mentioned the feelings of malaise, depression and anger a lot of them have.  She's absolutely livid and frightened all at that same time.  She said a couple of things to me during my exam that were quite sobering.

She quietly stated that she has seen this particular act before.  She noted the number of generals or military personnel that Drumpf is trying to appoint to cabinet positions.  She stated that all it takes are a few generals with guns, the closing of the banks for a couple of days under some pretext, and you have a despot on your hands.  Not to mention the appointment of family members to official and unofficial positions of power.  And, the telling factor for my doctor was Castro's alignment with Communist Russia.  And, look at what we've got here.  

My doctor and her 14-year-old son are terrified.  She even told me that her son wondered how he would get through high school with Drumpf in power.  She openly marveled at how the education system in this country failed so many voters who appear to be not only ill-informed, but simply don't care.  

My doctor said that she will be attending the Million Woman March the day after the election and she hopes to see me there.  A

These are the kind of stories the electoral college should be hearing.  Not celebrity pleas.

[Duke Silver]

Welp, I'm already being told this means GOP won't feel pressure to do anything other than let GOP-controlled committees hold some hearings about #RussianHack...no need for special, independent investigation.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/310510-poll-majority-of-americans-believe-russian-hacking-didnt-sway

[Chicken Wing]

8 minutes ago, Duke Silver said:

Welp, I'm already being told this means GOP won't feel pressure to do anything other than let GOP-controlled committees hold some hearings about #RussianHack...no need for special, independent investigation.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/310510-poll-majority-of-americans-believe-russian-hacking-didnt-sway

Thing is, no one ever said the interference did affect the outcome of the election. The determination was that Russia tried to influence it, interfered with the intent of swaying the pendulum. Regardless of whether or not it did, we can't have foreign (and unfriendly) agents meddling in our elections and the matter still needs to be pursued.

[Duke Silver]

Based on nothing but gut feel & a little bit of time working w/ empirical models during college: methinks at least a part of the polling results  above arises from a sort of denial among respondents ("no way an outside influence could affect our system!!!  Murrica!!")  We'll see what that number looks like, say, a week from now.

[izabella]

52 minutes ago, MulletorHater said:

She quietly stated that she has seen this particular act before.  She noted the number of generals or military personnel that Drumpf is trying to appoint to cabinet positions.  She stated that all it takes are a few generals with guns, the closing of the banks for a couple of days under some pretext, and you have a despot on your hands.  Not to mention the appointment of family members to official and unofficial positions of power.  And, the telling factor for my doctor was Castro's alignment with Communist Russia.  And, look at what we've got here.  

America is a country of immigrants - there are so many here who know exactly how easy it is for dictatorship to take control and destroy all in its path.  We should have known better than to open that door here! 

Trump thinks he and Putin and Exxon and Goldman Sachs are going to run the world together.  He is too stupid to realize Putin is not down with that and has hella more experience at the dictatorship thing.  HE wants to run the world and Trump will be his water boy.  And how does that turn out?  Well, ask Aleppo how it turned out for them for Assad to align with Putin.

[MulletorHater]

16 minutes ago, Chicken Wing said:

Thing is, no one ever said the interference did affect the outcome of the election. The determination was that Russia tried to influence it, interfered with the intent of swaying the pendulum. Regardless of whether or not it did, we can't have foreign (and unfriendly) agents meddling in our elections and the matter still needs to be pursued.

Well, technically, those 59% of the people polled (because it wasn't the majority of Americans as claimed) may be technically correct.

Although Drumpf invited Russia to hack into Hillary's emails (an act of espionage), I believe the real damage came from Comey, who violated the Hatch Act.  He left undecided and doubtful voters twisting in the wind for nearly 2 weeks.  Not to mention giving the "Crooked Hillary" narrative new legs.  By the time of his second letter, the damage had been done.

One of the things I hope the electors demand before December 19 is that Drumpf release his tax returns.  We already know that Drumpf's business interests don't past the smell test.  What and who he owes are of paramount importance, particularly if he owes money to Russian banks that are aligned with his Russian love interest, Putin.  It's also time for Drumpf's party to put its supposed love of this country over their party.  You know, the same party that staged several Benghazi, Planned Parenthood and other investigations.  You know, the same party that voted to shut down the government when they couldn't get Obama to dismantle his signature legislation, to the tune of several billion dollars.  And, the same party that gambled with the good faith and credit of the United States to get its way, which it didn't.  It was the same party that had a blueprint in place to impeach/sue President Obama and AG Holder with several ginned up scandals and other actions to undermine them at home and abroad.  But given how popular Putin became with some in the GOP (not just Drumpf) because of their hatred of President Obama, I don't expect much from them.

[Hanahope]

Part of me wonders if the Dems are going to do nothing for at least a year, hoping to show the country the damage Trump will do,  While I would hate to see the damage, I think that some people actually have to see it, in order to believe it.

[fastiller]

@Hanahope - you give the Dems (& I'm one) too much credit, I think.  But I can see this as a strategy for 2018.  HOWEVER: there was ample evidence prior to 11.08.2016.  They should've been screaming from each & every rooftop then.

[izabella]

18 minutes ago, MulletorHater said:

One of the things I hope the electors demand before December 19 is that Drumpf release his tax returns.  We already know that Drumpf's business interests don't past the smell test.  What and who he owes are of paramount importance, particularly if he owes money to Russian banks that are aligned with his Russian love interest, Putin.

Trump is NEVER going to release his tax returns.  NEVER. 

Does the EC have the power to filibuster?  Maybe if they refuse to vote until they see his taxes, and until they get a briefing on his ties to the Russian election hacking, they can hold his feet to the fire.  Sorry, we won't vote until we know all the facts.  Ha, that will never happen, either, I'm sure.

[MulletorHater]

12 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Part of me wonders if the Dems are going to do nothing for at least a year, hoping to show the country the damage Trump will do,  While I would hate to see the damage, I think that some people actually have to see it, in order to believe it.

Apparently, there is talk that the Democrats may employ a GOP tactic:  filing lawsuits against.  I say, why not?  The GOP have shamelessly used the courts to thwart President Obama's agenda, including the expansion of Medicare, immigration reform, LBGT rights, etc.

Democrats Decide to Do Unto Others as Has Been Done to Obama

[Hanahope]

7 minutes ago, fastiller said:

 HOWEVER: there was ample evidence prior to 11.08.2016.  They should've been screaming from each & every rooftop then.

I agree that for smart, educated and well-informed people, there was ample evidence.  But for many of those white-blue-collar workers, they only see what's in front of them.  They don't see what's going on in a different state, so if the Republican policies are failing in Kansas, a worker in Ohio doesn't give a shit.  It has to affect them directly in order to get it through their thick skulls that all the rallies and empty promises aren't really going to help them get their 'good-paying' jobs back.

But yes, it still should have been screamed from the rooftop and I'm simply flabbergasted that I heard almost nothing about it from actual Democratic representatives/candidates.  How come I only heard about these things from the likes of TDS, TCR, TRMS, LNWSM, etc.  I'd really like one of these people ask someone in the Dem hierarchy why they don't scream this.

2 minutes ago, MulletorHater said:

Apparently, there is talk that the Democrats may employ a GOP tactic:  filing lawsuits against.  I say, why not?  The GOP have shamelessly used the courts to thwart President Obama's agenda, including the expansion of Medicare, immigration reform, LBGT rights, etc.

Well, I hope they actually follow through.  Frankly, the Dem party doesn't have a good track record for that.  but I continue to have hope.

[ChromaKelly]

1 hour ago, Duke Silver said:

Welp, I'm already being told this means GOP won't feel pressure to do anything other than let GOP-controlled committees hold some hearings about #RussianHack...no need for special, independent investigation.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/310510-poll-majority-of-americans-believe-russian-hacking-didnt-sway

The thing is, just the fact that it happened influenced the election. I can't tell you the number of random people I overheard talking at work, in public places, idiots on FB who thought that the hack was of Hillary's email server and were all oh here we go with emails again! See, she let the door open to Russian hackers, she can't be trusted.

[Duke Silver]

[galaxygirl76]

My dad,  who lives in the Netherlands, messaged me on Facebook telling me that he heard on their news about Putin being personally involved in our election, how dangerous that a world power has that happen to them, and he's wondering how the Agencies are letting that happen. I don't even know what to tell him at this point. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by galaxygirl76
Clarification

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

 

Part of me wonders if the Dems are going to do nothing for at least a year, hoping to show the country the damage Trump will do,

 

Given the way they so often act anyway we probably wouldn't notice anything different, though. And the Republicans would still blame them for everything that went wrong and their followers would believe them. 

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

My dad,  who lives in the Netherlands, messaged me on Facebook telling me that he heard on their news about Putin being personally involved in our election, how dangerous that a world power has that happen to them, and he's wondering how the Agencies are letting that happen. I don't even know what to tell him at this point. 

Yes, Americans are the only ones who don't see Putin for what he is because Trump told them he is awesome in how he controls his country.

Americans have such short memories.  It was only a couple hundred years ago that we fought for independence from England because we didn't want to pay taxes, but now we can't seem to be bothered to care that a murderous foreign dictator has control of our President-elect, and through him, our banks and corporations and Congress.   My family comes from a place where they remember wrongs done to our country centuries ago, and they know what is coming for America: Russia.  And that means the whole world will be forced to love Putin or die.

Edited December 15, 2016 by izabella

[ari333]

I love Obama, but what's next? how about our current president DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THIS if  Russia/Putin influenced our country's election. Can he? IDK

[Duke Silver]

Holy shit...I just had the most horrifying conversation since election day....  I'll spare everyone the details while I mull it over.  I just need to ask: do people "out there" truly not understand/grasp the supreme danger of Putin's Russia????  Is getting a particular President enough of a reaosn to turn a blind eye to the ongoing intrigue?

Can y'all do me a favor?  Send this story out on your social media, or another one of your choice, describing Putin's plans.  If there are people who legit don't get it, they need to.  I mean, I've been assuming that anyone claiming ignorance of Putin to be a partisan asshole who is merely trying to score cheap points., but maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe people truly are ignorant of the facts.  <--tongue-in-cheek

It sickens me how so many people seem to actually DESIRE autocracy...

Russia and the Threat to Liberal Democracy

[Padma]

37 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

The thing is, just the fact that it happened influenced the election. I can't tell you the number of random people I overheard talking at work, in public places, idiots on FB who thought that the hack was of Hillary's email server and were all oh here we go with emails again! See, she let the door open to Russian hackers, she can't be trusted.

Of course it did.  The steady drip of email releases kept Trump's main attack on Clinton "her email shows her CORRUPTION!!! Pay for Play! yaddayadda" in the news, on the air, at his rallies--replays of him yelling about it at his rallies--and his surrogates spinning it over and over at this horrible thing throughout the day...weeks...months.

It was so OBVIOUS that Russia had hacked and released to wikileaks/Assange (who hates HRC too) in order to influence the election for Trump that I'm genuinely shocked that this seems to be a surprise to a lot of people.

Not surprising? That Trump is trying to shut it down, deny ALL of it.  C'mon folks (i.e. Congressional Democrats and the media).  Also OBVIOUS is that the president-elect KNEW about this and encouraged it (see his last press conference in July when he asked Russia to do more).  His TOTAL unwillingness to even acknowledge any Russian hacking of any kind speaks volumes.  HE. KNEW. 

I think he may be avoiding those CIA briefings (rather than, you know, trying to hear what their case for it is) because he thinks they may know HIS involvement in all this, too.  Why wouldn't they?  The investigation of Manafort began right around that time, too.  Manafort "left" to not become am ethics "distraction" for Trump's campaign. But, just like Lewandowski, he was still advising him (just not on the official payroll). I would like to know if he was the conduit between Trump and Putin, as I suspect.

Roger Stone's* knowledge in summer that Podesta's email would be released in the general election is also incriminating since he and Manafort have been close for many years.

*Trump's "dirty trickster" who helped plant that National Enquirer article (and was quoted in it) falsely linking Ted Cruz's father to Lee Harvey Oswald.

[izabella]

1 minute ago, ari333 said:

I love Obama, but what's next? how about our current president DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THIS if  Russia/Putin influenced our country's election. Can he? IDK

Sure he can.  He can impose even more sanctions on Russia and all that do business with them.  He can make a big stink about it and be on tv every single day warning this country of who Putin is and how bad this hacking is for us, and force the media to pay attention.  He can de-classify some of the Russian hacking materials that our Senators asked him to de-classify so we know more of the story.  He can gather up our Democrats in Congress and tell them to get off their asses and bitch about it every day and call for a special commission to investigate, rather than the weasly partisan reviews.  He can call the FBI on the carpet for aiding and abetting.  He can blast the media for aiding and abetting.  He can have an opinion, a LOUD one. 

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, izabella said:

It was only a couple hundred years ago that we fought for independence from England because we didn't want to pay taxes, but now we can't seem to be bothered to care that a murderous foreign dictator has control of our President-elect, and through him, our banks and corporations and Congress.

What's that Johnson quote?

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

That's pretty much it. Although now it's not just the "colored man" but women, gay people, trans people, Muslims etc. etc. etc. As long as he complains about political correctness to them and moves to put all those people in their place they're happy and think they're winning. 

I think it's been posted somewhere in this foreign as well that Putin is very popular with all these super right movements in Europe. Hitler may not have considered the Russians white, but they do, so they see him as a symbol of that same supremacy. 

3 minutes ago, Padma said:

Of course it did.  The steady drip of email releases kept Trump's main attack on Clinton "her email shows her CORRUPTION!!! Pay for Play! yaddayadda" in the news, on the air, at his rallies--replays of him yelling about it at his rallies--and his surrogates spinning it over and over at this horrible thing throughout the day...weeks...months.

And remember, all these things he and his supporters were claiming they thought were so bad--bad enough to lock her up and make her unfit for president--are things he now openly does. He's defending Russia's attacks on US democracy and using the presidency to make money and basically making the presidency something his business as recently acquired. And they don't care. None of these things are actually values to them. Their value is always sticking it to "them." 

[ari333]

3 minutes ago, izabella said:

Sure he can.  He can impose even more sanctions on Russia and all that do business with them.  He can make a big stink about it and be on tv every single day warning this country of who Putin is and how bad this hacking is for us, and force the media to pay attention.  He can de-classify some of the Russian hacking materials that our Senators asked him to de-classify so we know more of the story.  He can gather up our Democrats in Congress and tell them to get off their asses and bitch about it every day and call for a special commission to investigate, rather than the weasly partisan reviews.  He can call the FBI on the carpet for aiding and abetting.  He can blast the media for aiding and abetting.  He can have an opinion, a LOUD one. 

Thank you. I thought so , but wasn't sure so I asked. My next question about what's next is... why doesn't he do it? Why haven't I heard him onevery channel saying how horrible and dangerous... fucking dangerous this is? He is still my president. It isn't over yet dammit.  He is president, so do something.

On another note seeing Ivanka and those two idiot sons sitting in on those meetings  makes me puke.

[Padma]

On the bright side, although the FBI Director is apparently in the tank for Trump and willing to do and say anything he wants (scary), the CIA apparently isn't. 

It's a little like Nixon - Hoover - Helms and the inter-agency intrigue that surrounded Watergate.

One can only hope that Trump will be brought down by a relatively minor illegal decision like that--or even better, will be quickly impeached by an investigation that exposes his own involvement in the Russian hacks of his political opponent. (/dreaming) 

11 minutes ago, izabella said:

Sure he can.  He can impose even more sanctions on Russia and all that do business with them.  He can make a big stink about it and be on tv every single day warning this country of who Putin is and how bad this hacking is for us, and force the media to pay attention.  He can de-classify some of the Russian hacking materials that our Senators asked him to de-classify so we know more of the story.  He can gather up our Democrats in Congress and tell them to get off their asses and bitch about it every day and call for a special commission to investigate, rather than the weasly partisan reviews.  He can call the FBI on the carpet for aiding and abetting.  He can blast the media for aiding and abetting.  He can have an opinion, a LOUD one. 

This just had to be repeated! 

IF. ONLY.

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, ari333 said:

Thank you. I thought so , but wasn't sure so I asked. My next question about what's next is... why doesn't he do it? Why haven't I heard him onevery channel saying how horrible and dangerous... fucking dangerous this is? He is still my president. It isn't over yet dammit.  He is president, so do something.

This is a really good question.  I keep hoping he knows something that is going to come out and is biding his time, but I think he just wants a "nice, smooth, peaceful, democratic transition" to our new dictatorship, which is a huge mistake. 

We're out of time, folks.  EC votes on Monday.  We're all fucked after that.

[partofme]

12 minutes ago, Padma said:

n only hope that Trump will be brought down by a relatively minor illegal decision like that--or even better, will be quickly impeached by an investigation that exposes his own involvement in the Russian hacks of his political opponent. (/dreaming) 

 

With a Republican congress, I think the only thing that will bring him down is if he's caught on video tape committing murder or rape and then maybe not even then.  I'm so scared for this country and wish we were having a recount.

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, partofme said:

With a Republican congress, I think the only thing that will bring him down is if he's caught on video tape committing murder or rape and then maybe not even then.

Nah.  Trumputin will just claim it was Hillary on the grassy knoll, and his Comrades will cheer and chant Lock Her Up!

[ari333]

WHAT'S NEXT? Do something! Obama.                                                                          

I was a a kid , but I remember Watergate. Someone broke in a stole some files? This is so much more that that ever was. Why is no one shouting from the rooftops and on every newscast screaming about this? WHY? 

[Cupid Stunt]

It Was a Corruption Election. It's Time We Realized It.

Sarah Chayes, in Foreign Policy

Quote

… In the past 10 years, populations have rejected “rigged systems” that had stood for decades. They have risen up in mass protests in Brazil, Guatemala, South Africa, and South Korea. They have overthrown their governments in open insurrections like the Arab Spring and Ukraine’s Maidan. Or they have fallen in behind self-proclaimed Robin Hoods such as Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez. Occasionally, they have joined violent religious movements like the Islamic State or Boko Haram.

With Trump’s election, the United States just joined this list….

Whatever our affiliation or walk of life, we must also, each of us, discover and hold on to that dividing line that marks off the reasonable compromises from the unacceptable.

For, like the people of Mosul in Iraq or northern Nigeria, who traded intolerably corrupt regimes for Islamist crusaders who were worse, Americans will wake up in January under a system that is more corrupt than the one that fueled their rebellion. That is the irony of resorting to a wrecking ball to bring down a corrupt regime. Too often, the kleptocratic networks prove resilient, while those who revolted end up with crushed heads.

Already, President-elect Trump’s questionable affiliations and potential conflicts of interest — as genteel vocabulary would have it — are making headlines. The issue is not one of technical legality or poor vetting. His actions and associations are deliberate. While tweeting out distractions to disguise the fact, he will unleash a feeding frenzy. Our laws and institutions will be bent to the purposes of personal enrichment. Industry lobbyists will draft the bills. He will negotiate business deals with foreign counterparts, confusing his personal interests for the good of the nation. Agencies that try to hold the line will see their budgets slashed, their officials belittled in public. Law enforcement will be even more selective than it is today. The labor of human beings, the land, and what’s on it or under it will be converted to cash as efficiently as possible. And what can’t be converted will be bulldozed out of the way.

And what will Americans do in the face of this exacerbation of our own brand of corruption? Will we further relax our standards, shrugging our shoulders and referring to the letter of ever-changing laws? Or will we reach for a definition of corruption that is in line with common sense and rebuild our foundations upon that bedrock?…

[Padma]

Obama's silence is disgraceful.  On Aleppo.  On Putin's efforts to sabotage our presidential election (which had some success--just look.)

I agree that I think he wants a nice quiet uncontroversial exit. And after noon on Jan 20th he will have no power to do anything (and--surprise!--people don't listen much to ex-presidents either).  All these executive orders he's putting through (that will be quickly overturned by Trump) will add -- in print-- to his "legacy", though meaningless.

The things that really WOULD make a difference in the world, involve taking a risk and speaking out now and being criticized for it.

He's not going to do it.

[Keepitmoving]

Putting Russian/Putin interference aside, which I shouldn't even dare type because it clearly needs to be front and center, because simply, Putin needs to be put in his place. That's the bottom line for me, we are the leading super power and if we were going to share that spot it sure as hell wouldn't be with Russia. 

But I really don't believe that the Comey letter was the death nail to Hillary winning, I don't. I believe if anything, she might have had  a slim chance at a tie in those key states or coming in close enough to have a legitimate recount maybe?  But I'm not even sure about that, and I feel this way because I'm sorry, I feel the hate for her and the hate for women in general in this country, especially women who try to grab power. This election laid all that bare and I won't be denying how powerful that hate is, no way. Not only the hate, but the fear, which I tend to think produces the hate. But, I think there were many women that went in that voting booth and voted for the man, not even because they necessarily loathed Hillary, they are just resigned to staying in their "place" and they feel safe that way, they were afraid. They were afraid to take a chance on any woman IMO becoming president. I'm not even talking about the women who were at Trump rallies spewing hate toward Hillary and proudly telling anyone who would listen where a woman's place was, no, not them. There was a a pundit on Chris Hayes' show way before the election results came in, she's on his show pretty frequently, I forgot her name, she was a Hillary supporter, but she said that even she was afraid that if Hillary got elected, how would not just the men in this country, but the male leaders around the world, how would they respond? Would she be afforded the same kind of respect by those male leaders around the world so that she could lead?  I remember Chris Hayes being surprised at her admitting this, his reaction was like really? You're really afraid of this? But I wasn't surprised, I was like Chris, she's feeling the hate, she knows exactly what she's feeling and she thinks it might be so strong it would be crippling to Hillary's presidency. So I just don't necessarily buy that Hillary would have pulled it out even without Comey releasing that letter, too much HATE, and too much FEAR.  Again, I've said it before, the power of an Angel Merkel or any of the  other female leaders around the world does not compare to the power of the leader of our country, Putin knows this all too well. You're not just the leader of one country  when you become our president, you are the most powerful human being the world over. So when progressive folks like many of us  wonder why this country is taking so long to elect a woman to the highest office when other less than progressive countries have done so, this is the reason IMO, it's not the same kind of power and all the world leaders know it. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[callmebetty]

Does anybody know Pence's stance on Russia/Putin?

[Lantern7]

My theory: "Whatever the president-elect says, no matter how insane, I will stand behind him. This way, when he is run out of Washington by an angry mob, I can swoop in and drag this nation back to the Fifties."

[Padma]

25 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Putting Russian/Putin interference aside, which I shouldn't even dare type because it clearly needs to be front and center, because simply, Putin needs to be put in his place. That's the bottom line for me, we are the leading super power and if we were going to share that spot it sure as hell wouldn't be with Russia. 

But I really don't believe that the Comey letter was the death nail to Hillary winning, I don't. I believe if anything, she might have had  a slim chance at a tie in those key states or coming in close enough to have a legitimate recount maybe?  But I'm not even sure about that, and I feel this way because I'm sorry, I feel the hate for her and the hate for women in general in this country, especially women who try to grab power. This election laid all that bare and I won't be denying how powerful that hate is, no way. Not only the hate, but the fear, which I tend to think produces the hate. But, I think there were many women that went in that voting booth and voted for the man, not even because they necessarily loathed Hillary, they are just resigned to staying in their "place" and they feel safe that way, they were afraid. They were afraid to take a chance on any woman IMO becoming president. (snip). So I just don't necessarily buy that Hillary would have pulled it out even without Comey releasing that letter, too much HATE, and too much FEAR.  Again, I've said it before, the power of an Angel Merkel or any of the  other female leaders around the world does not compare to the power of the leader of our country, Putin knows this all too well. You're not just the leader of one country  when you become our president, you are the most powerful human being the world over. So when progressive folks like many of us  wonder why this country is taking so long to elect a woman to the highest office when other less than progressive countries have done so, this is the reason IMO, it's not the same kind of power and all the world leaders know it. 

Well, maybe so. But she -did- win millions more votes than he did anyway.  And, despite the sexism, the world has had many powerful women leaders, some good and some bad.  It's not like we were pioneering anything, except in our own very politically backward country.

I can understand why Putin is now targeting Merkel because she's pretty much all that's left between us and a global rise of fascism that will completely play into Putin's hands.

Another word for that "fear" of electing a woman is "stupidity". It's neither novel nor bold and Clinton, governing as a team leader, would have had many big strong wise men surrounding her (unlike Tubby). It's really pathetic that many American women still thought like this in 2016, but I do think that many didn't vote on issues at all--that they saw big, strong assertive billionaire "Mr. Trump" and a pleasant, smart, top of the class 67 year old woman and chose the man.  (Also, probably there were some number who even resented her because of her accomplishments. "Who does she think she is?" kind of thing. So pathetic, in the 21st century).

But I still think that all just added into "normal" votes against her and that Comey really tipped the scale, allowing Trump to sway undecided voters  to him in the final 10 days.

[fastiller]

1 hour ago, Padma said:

Of course it did.  The steady drip of email releases kept Trump's main attack on Clinton "her email shows her CORRUPTION!!! Pay for Play! yaddayadda" in the news, on the air, at his rallies--replays of him yelling about it at his rallies--and his surrogates spinning it over and over at this horrible thing throughout the day...weeks...months.

It was so OBVIOUS that Russia had hacked and released to wikileaks/Assange (who hates HRC too) in order to influence the election for Trump that I'm genuinely shocked that this seems to be a surprise to a lot of people.

Not surprising? That Trump is trying to shut it down, deny ALL of it.  C'mon folks (i.e. Congressional Democrats and the media).  Also OBVIOUS is that the president-elect KNEW about this and encouraged it (see his last press conference in July when he asked Russia to do more).  His TOTAL unwillingness to even acknowledge any Russian hacking of any kind speaks volumes.  HE. KNEW. 

I think he may be avoiding those CIA briefings (rather than, you know, trying to hear what their case for it is) because he thinks they may know HIS involvement in all this, too.  Why wouldn't they?  The investigation of Manafort began right around that time, too.  Manafort "left" to not become am ethics "distraction" for Trump's campaign. But, just like Lewandowski, he was still advising him (just not on the official payroll). I would like to know if he was the conduit between Trump and Putin, as I suspect.

Roger Stone's* knowledge in summer that Podesta's email would be released in the general election is also incriminating since he and Manafort have been close for many years.

*Trump's "dirty trickster" who helped plant that National Enquirer article (and was quoted in it) falsely linking Ted Cruz's father to Lee Harvey Oswald.

I may be repeating posts here, apologies in advance: there are news stories that more than just the presidential candidates were hacked.  (And I'm certain that the GOP candidate/s were also hacked, but either Putin or Assange held that back.)  Democratic House Candidates Were Also Targets of Russian Hacking.

As to DJT avoiding the briefings: I think that if the briefers had info on him, they'd quietly let him know so he could 'save face' and attend the briefings.  I wonder if there's not some sort of 'plausible deniability' being baked into his administration - at least the early part of it.  "I didn't know, so don't look at me."

1 hour ago, izabella said:

This is a really good question.  I keep hoping he knows something that is going to come out and is biding his time, but I think he just wants a "nice, smooth, peaceful, democratic transition" to our new dictatorship, which is a huge mistake. 

We're out of time, folks.  EC votes on Monday.  We're all fucked after that.

Yeah, I get Pres. Obama not wanting to burn the whole thing down, but part of me wants to see it happen.  Wants it a whole lot!

I can see @Keepitmoving's point about misogyny in the election; and I can see @Padma's point about the popular vote.  I think in the states where it really counts, there is that deep-seeded misogyny.

[Shannon L.]

4 hours ago, Hanahope said:

While I would hate to see the damage, I think that some people actually have to see it, in order to believe it.

I'm having a crisis of conscience right now because part of me really wants a certain percentage of the population to truly suffer as a result of this presidency, but the other part of me knows that children and non-Trump supporters will suffer as well and I can't wish that on them.

2 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

I just need to ask: do people "out there" truly not understand/grasp the supreme danger of Putin's Russia????  Is getting a particular President enough of a reaosn to turn a blind eye to the ongoing intrigue?

Unfortunately, yes.  I've heard several people say that these are left wing media lies, conspiracy theories and fear mongering.   I had one person on FB say "So what?" (exact words)   The DNC/Hillary camp was also fighting dirty. (Paraphrased).  Someone else on FB today, responded to my comment of "We're screwed" with "Quit being so dramatic, we'll be fine".  Yet another was saying that they have no proof, only a suspicion. 

 

2 hours ago, Padma said:

It was so OBVIOUS that Russia had hacked and released to wikileaks/Assange (who hates HRC too) in order to influence the election for Trump that I'm genuinely shocked that this seems to be a surprise to a lot of people.

Me, too!  When the news came out I didn't even bat an eyelash.  I basically said to myself "And there you have it.  Unfortunately, it's too late."

[sistermagpie]

On 12/15/2016 at 3:01 PM, Shannon L. said:

Unfortunately, yes.  I've heard several people say that these are left wing media lies, conspiracy theories and fear mongering.  

I saw a meme that had Obama saying Putin was trying to influence the election followed by Putin saying, "You mean like by paying protesters to stage riots to pretend to be outraged Americans?" (Took me a second to remember they think the protests are staged and paid by Soros or somebody.)

So yeah, they're still as far up their conspiracy asses as ever. Who knows when or if they'll ever deal with the actual world.

This guide for resisting Trump was put together by former congressional staffers based on what they saw the Tea Party do to grab control:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DzOz3Y6D8g_MNXHNMJYAz1b41_cn535aU5UsN7Lj8X8/preview#heading=h.1t4uu5uonb6f?platform=hootsuite

[stillshimpy]

Taken from George Takei's Twitter:  

Pantsuit Action Network made it easy to ask for an inquiry re Russian election interference. Text INVESTIGATE to 528-86, follow instructions

If you haven't already, please do so.  

[EyewatchTV211]

While it pisses me off that it would have to be done this way, I think the only hope from the electoral college comes from Democratic electors changing their votes from Hillary to someone else. I went ahead and wrote letters/emails to electors that could be faithless, and as part of it I was googling some people to check on information. The Republican electors are SCARY. I wasn't doing detailed research, but the sites that were coming up right away highlighted their terrible beliefs, and many of them are all excited about voting for Trump. It made me really question how the hell the electors are chosen. One of the electors is a 19 year old who voted for the first time this year! WTF?

[Padma]

42 minutes ago, VMepicgrl said:

While it pisses me off that it would have to be done this way, I think the only hope from the electoral college comes from Democratic electors changing their votes from Hillary to someone else. I went ahead and wrote letters/emails to electors that could be faithless, and as part of it I was googling some people to check on information. The Republican electors are SCARY. I wasn't doing detailed research, but the sites that were coming up right away highlighted their terrible beliefs, and many of them are all excited about voting for Trump. It made me really question how the hell the electors are chosen. One of the electors is a 19 year old who voted for the first time this year! WTF?

Why would you want that? Without Trump electors joining in on a vote for someone else (enough of them to reach 270), it will just reduce Hillary's final EC total even more. What am I missing?

Edited December 15, 2016 by Padma

[Duke Silver]

[Duke Silver]

[EyewatchTV211]

2 hours ago, Padma said:

Why would you want that? Without Trump electors joining in on a vote for someone else (enough of them to reach 270), it will just reduce Hillary's final EC total even more. What am I missing?

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere as well. Basically, they think there's a better chance they'll get some Republicans to switch to an "okay" Republican if Hillary's electors all do the same, if Hillary directs them to "heroically." And more likely than Republican electors actually acknowledging that Hillary is the better candidate and won the popular vote and dumping their party to vote for her. Again, I'm not thrilled with it. But like Keith says, if the ONLY other option is rump, it would be better than that.

Again, I'd rather re-vote altogether and hope that enough of those previous undecideds and protest voters learned their lesson, maybe some rump idiots learned their lesson, plus a less hackable method of voting (since I still wonder about those states) would lead to Hillary winning.

Speaking of that video plea to electors, is it bad to say that I don't think the right appeal is to "vote your conscience?" We saw where Ted Cruz's conscience eventually led him. Related to my last post, I don't trust that their consciences are saying to vote for someone other than rump.

Edited December 16, 2016 by VMepicgrl

[Duke Silver]

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, VMepicgrl said:

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere as well. Basically, they think there's a better chance they'll get some Republicans to switch to an "okay" Republican if Hillary's electors all do the same, if Hillary directs them to "heroically." And more likely than Republican electors actually acknowledging that Hillary is the better candidate and won the popular vote and dumping their party to vote for her. Again, I'm not thrilled with it. But like Keith says, if the ONLY other option is rump, it would be better than that.

Again, I'd rather re-vote altogether and hope that enough of those previous undecideds and protest voters learned their lesson, maybe some rump idiots learned their lesson, plus a less hackable method of voting (since I still wonder about those states) would lead to Hillary winning.

Speaking of that video plea to electors, is it bad to say that I don't think the right appeal is to "vote your conscience?" We saw where Ted Cruz's conscience eventually led him. Related to my last post, I don't trust that their consciences are saying to vote for someone other than rump.

I think I read a story that a judge in Colorado ordered electors to cast their votes for Hillary. Maybe I read that wrong, I don't think I did. I'll tell you this, people don't recognize it yet, but I've said this is the second Civil War that we are in and if what they are doing in North Carolina right now doesn't convince one of that, then I don't know what will.  It felt like that for me way before the election came to a close, way before. Democrats better start arming themselves in every way possible, and I mean every way.  Because the militias on the right have been armed and trained for years now in every way possible.  It's a damn shame because unlike the first Civil War when the north wasn't made up of a bunch of weak ass elites who were afraid to get their nails dirty, that's not what we have today. They're pathetic and clearly they, we've lost, the entire fucking republic is all but destroyed.  Sorry ass complacent, lazy democrats.

Except for Hillary Clinton, who I am even more impressed by since it seems like just like Citizens United she's smack dab in the middle of all this. Seems like Putin's quest for revenge, is about getting back at her, now that's a hell of a political figure IMO.  National and foreign figures just itching to take you down, that must be some power they think she has otherwise why bother.  He did this shit in part to get back at her they are reporting which I think I had heard about before. And I don't blame her one damn bit as I think  a great American leader would be one that pisses Putin off that much,  and not the one we got who is his chosen puppet. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Duke Silver]

Good thing he confessed otherwise there might have been a hung jury like in Michael Slager's case (cop who killed Walter Scott when Scott was fucking 18 feet away & running away from him)...

[Spartan Girl]

My kingdom for a Christmas miracle.