S07.E05: Go Getters

[piequinn35]

I don't think they knew that Maggie and Sasha were there, they all blocked the doors didn't they?

[jaigurudeva]

I think the biggest problem with everyone (CDB, Woodbury, Hilltop, the Kingdom, even the Saviors) is that they're still trying to get back to life prior to the ZA. They still want their unitized housing, running water and electricity, casseroles and cobblers, book clubs and school choirs. They need to let go and move on if they want to survive. Sticking close to urban developments and cities, scavenging with "food runs" that will eventually run out or expire, and it's only a matter of time before bandits like Negan wind up at your door. Pack up and head into the mountains, a national park where there's not a single road for a hundred miles. Build a few sturdy, communal cabins on a small, defensive area. Find a river for water and fish; hunt game; cultivate calorie-dense crops like corn and potatoes, and high-yield squashes, tomatoes, and berries; gather the rest. Sure, it's a rough and rugged life, but you'll live peacefully at least, without running into constant conflict like CDB.

[Ohwell]

Naw.  I'm not missing out on my Panera run. : ) 

[AngelaHunter]

Actually, the only silliness I can overlook is Enid and Cworal roller skating. They are still kids, with not much opportunity to BE kids anymore. I ignored the fact that Carl just happened to spot the backpack, just lying there, and just happening to contain two pairs of skates just in the right sizes. As for the making out in sight of the Saviors: If memory serves, an overly-hormonal teenaged boy wouldn't care if the world was going to end in 15 minutes.

[J----av]

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.  Instead of waiting around for Neagan and his goons to come and kill Maggie and Sasha, go take out Neagan.

If Badass Rick (who tore out Claimer Joe's jugular with his teeth and told his captor, Gareth which weapon he would kill him with) hadn't turned into Candyass Rick, this would have happened already.

 Not when you are outnumbered by hundreds its not

[J----av]

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

I think you answered your own question: there is no logic to this extortion scheme because either TPTBs didn't think it through, or they're pointing out that this isn't sustainable, and everything is coming to a head. 

Why not fortify the gate and lock them out? Why not barricade their camp and starve them out? Quietly sabotage their vehicles; cut the brake lines, pierce the gas tank, slash the tires?

If Negan has "100s of men" as claimed, then you basically have to resort to guerrilla warfare. And they may do this, but I'm skeptical. They didn't even think to hide any of the guns. 

It's like on this show, you're either a warlord, a bunch of idiots, or part of CDB, who aren't really hitting on much anyway. 

 They don't even know where Negan lives

[Gobi]

4 minutes ago, J----av said:

 They don't even know where Negan lives

With the firepower Alexandria had, it would have been quite possible to ambush Negan when he showed up and wipe them out. Surprise is a serious force multiplier, to use current military jargon. Negan didn't have 100s with him, and they could have defeated them in detail.

[Timetoread]

I had a thought about Abe's necklace and why it's special for Sasha to have, though she will never know its significance.  Yes Rosita made and gave it to him but wearing it and losing it marked the moment that he knew he loved Sasha.  When he CHOSE her.  It's hers, just don't let Rosie see it.

[J----av]

31 minutes ago, Gobi said:

With the firepower Alexandria had, it would have been quite possible to ambush Negan when he showed up and wipe them out. Surprise is a serious force multiplier, to use current military jargon. Negan didn't have 100s with him, and they could have defeated them in detail.

 With who? All of ricks useful fighters are dead (abe, Glenn)or not at Alexandria (Morgan, Carol, Sasha, Maggie, Heath, Tara)  besides Michonne and Rosita. Everyone else at Alexandria has shown to be soft and completely useless in a fight and with guns. Freaking Carl and Spencer are two of Ricks top guys right now lol. Negan also has Daryl with him and Rick wont shoot at his BFF. And you don't think Negan was prepared for that? If by some miracle Rick did manage to kill all 50 plus men and destroy their 5 huge trucks, Simon would just round up the other hundred and something men that were not there and come kill everyone (what like 25 people) at Alexandria.

 

 They should have just ran because they are not winning any fight at the time without collaborating with Hilltop and The Kingdom 

Edited November 24, 2016 by J----av

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, J----av said:

 They don't even know where Negan lives

Which speaks to my other post that it's ridiculous there's three fairly big settlements that have no idea of the other. If one actually instituted a scouting system and mapping, then one would find all them.

Though I concede a head on fight is not a good idea. 

[Gobi]

43 minutes ago, J----av said:

 With who? All of ricks useful fighters are dead (abe, Glenn)or not at Alexandria (Morgan, Carol, Sasha, Maggie, Heath, Tara)  besides Michonne and Rosita. Everyone else at Alexandria has shown to be soft and completely useless in a fight and with guns. Freaking Carl and Spencer are two of Ricks top guys right now lol. Negan also has Daryl with him and Rick wont shoot at his BFF. And you don't think Negan was prepared for that? If by some miracle Rick did manage to kill all 50 plus men and destroy their 5 huge trucks, Simon would just round up the other hundred and something men that were not there and come kill everyone (what like 25 people) at Alexandria.

 

 They should have just ran because they are not winning any fight at the time without collaborating with Hilltop and The Kingdom 

We don't know good or bad the Alexandrians are at fighting. Nor do we know how good the Saviors are, either. In the few fights involving the Saviors, they haven't been impressive. It's hard to believe that the Saviors would have any unit cohesion once Negan was dead, especially given the way he treats them. I would expect the whole group to fall apart once he died, and be more likely to fight each other than the Alexandrians. I doubt we'll ever find out.

[jvr]

13 hours ago, imnoangel129 said:

It is interesting that badass Rick turned into candyass Rick after getting involved with Michonne.

No, he got with Michonne and was extremely cocky and decided to mass murder a group of people in their sleep (do you count that as being a candyass?). He was super over confident and Michonne tried to temper him. He has now become a candyass after two of his members got their heads bashed in and he was humiliated to the point of almost chopping his own sons arm off. They have switched roles with Michonne wanting to be on the offensive (but not reckless I don't think) and he wanting to play it safe (and only making them even less safe). It doesn't matter though because crazy insane (badass?) Rick will have to make an appearance at some point to get them out of this.

Quote

Why not fortify the gate and lock them out? Why not barricade their camp and starve them out? Quietly sabotage their vehicles; cut the brake lines, pierce the gas tank, slash the tires?

If Negan has "100s of men" as claimed, then you basically have to resort to guerrilla warfare. And they may do this, but I'm skeptical. They didn't even think to hide any of the guns. 

It's like on this show, you're either a warlord, a bunch of idiots, or part of CDB, who aren't really hitting on much anyway. 

It's maddening! Rick and co. are so going about this wrong, I don't care how many times someone says Negan has thousands of men. They should have run or they should have fought, and the first time Negan showed up was the perfect opportunity. Put a gun in everyones hands and tell them to pull the damn trigger on anyone not an Alexandrian. I understand how broken Rick is but I can't get behind this stupid ass idea of doing what Negan says being in any way a good idea.

Edited November 24, 2016 by jvr

[ganesh]

I can actually give them a pass because it was less than a week since everything happened when Negan showed up. I mean, everyone must have PTSD^10 by now. I can get that Rick thinks it's his fault because it basically is. So either someone has to step up or someone has to snap Rick out of it. 

As it's been pointed out here plenty of times, Negan can only take so much. Resources are finite and they're just going to run out of them. As much as I pine for shred of strategic thinking (and to be fair they tried with the pit of zombies but it was just a stupid plan), someone at some point soon has got to realize this. (I hope it's Spencer). And hopefully set things in motion.

I don't mind slow moving shows, or visiting different groups each week, but this is getting repetitive. I really think the supersized episode ground the show down and was a strategic mistake by TPTBs. I got why they did it with Morgan; sort of get his whole story out of the way and have him catch up with the "present". Looking at it on paper, the season plot isn't that bad. But when I realize it's been 5 episodes, there needs to be some advancement here. Hopefully by now, since we've seen all the communities, they can jump around a little more and move things forward. 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Which speaks to my other post that it's ridiculous there's three fairly big settlements that have no idea of the other. If one actually instituted a scouting system and mapping, then one would find all them.

Don't forget that everyone--even a cop--seemed surprised that there was a prison, haha!

[jvr]

38 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I can actually give them a pass because it was less than a week since everything happened when Negan showed up. I mean, everyone must have PTSD^10 by now. I can get that Rick thinks it's his fault because it basically is. So either someone has to step up or someone has to snap Rick out of it. 

This I agree with, they have just experienced an extreme trauma and each person will react differently to it. I don't actually think the writers want us to think Rick's plan is right (or even necessary wrong), I think they want us to understand why Rick thinks its the right course of action...and that's where they are losing me. Rick at his most insane and at his most low I don't think would ever decide that Negan is someone that could ever be satisfied, that this is someone you can appease and he will leave you alone to be happy. A crushed Rick for me is one that runs, that decides he has lost and will salvage what he can by not losing anyone else (Daryl in this scenario is on his own, his life isn't worth the groups). This plan whether right or wrong doesn't fit even a traumatized defeated Rick for me.

Quote

Don't forget that everyone--even a cop--seemed surprised that there was a prison, haha!

Ha! I was thinking while watching this show that the most valuable thing to me would be a yellow pages, if you could find one of those together with a map you would be golden (good luck finding one but some shit just never dies). I'd go to every gun shop listed in a 100 mile radius and ransack that..look for warehouses of storage...maybe a amazon fulfillment center (I know there is one in VA, I might actually live in that warehouse), go to small establishments for items instead of huge malls (probably already ransacked and too much of chance of running into other people/zombies). I'd plan my whole existence around the yellow pages.

Edited November 24, 2016 by jvr

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

a yellow pages, if you could find one of those together with a map you would be golden (good luck finding one but some shit just never dies).

As I type, there is a soggy, weather-beaten pile of phone books outside the main entrance to my building. That pile has been there for months. Phone books! 

Edited November 24, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Nashville]

On 11/20/2016 at 9:39 PM, Bluegirl547 said:

Carl somehow leaves Alexandria with a USABLE CAR and then destroys the USABLE CAR to kill what? Three zombies?

It was a Ford.  Fuck it.

[slf]

21 hours ago, imnoangel129 said:

It is interesting that badass Rick turned into candyass Rick after getting involved with Michonne.

Rick has often gone through periods of being ineffectual. And I can't imagine the writers, who love Michonne, ever decided to create a storyline where being with her has made Rick weak. Nothing in the writing even hints at it, in my opinion.

[maczero]

9 hours ago, jvr said:

that..look for warehouses of storage...maybe a amazon fulfillment center (I know there is one in VA, I might actually live in that warehouse), 

There is one in Springfield and it literally sits on the border with Alexandria.  Although I think the employees would've cleaned the place out within the first couple weeks after society fell.  BTW, Daryl and the gay guy (forgot his name) did forage at a distribution facility when they fell into a trap set by the wolves.

13 hours ago, Gobi said:

We don't know good or bad the Alexandrians are at fighting. Nor do we know how good the Saviors are, either. In the few fights involving the Saviors, they haven't been impressive.

I think we have a pretty good idea of the average Alexandrian's fighting capabilities.  These people used to cut and run whenever they encountered more than a couple walkers.   The Wolves slaughtered about half of them in a daylight attack.  And the Wolves didn't even have guns.  Now the Alexandrians did manage to defeat the huge zombie horde that came from the quarry so their walker fighting skills have improved.  However I don't think they're ready to go up against thinking opponents who have a numbers advantage and more firearms. 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

 

It is interesting that badass Rick turned into candyass Rick after getting involved with Michonne.

 

 

 

I just don't really see this either. Like slf said, Rick has had PTSD moments before (and who can blame him?), and you could argue that killing Shane/the exodus from the farm were moments that morphed capable-yet-diplomatic Rick into bad-ass dictator Rick.

Then he became nutty and practically a pacifist after Lori died, he was basically in a coma after temporarily losing Judith, and even as he found the relative safety of Alexandria, he couldn't relax; even with Carol, Michonne, and Daryl right there, all calm yet vigilant, he flipped back into aggressive. And now he's witnessed two friends brutally murdered in front of his face--and one whisked away to the enemy camp--due in large part to an attack he planned (which happened not too long after his failed truck-quarry idea), all while being so close to having to permanently maim his own child. Add to all that that he doesn't know where some of his people even are at this point and also the responsibility on his shoulders to protect not just his two children, but everyone (whether or not he puts that on himself is irrelevant)...of course he's not running headlong into combat willy-nilly.

That said, I don't think that this is Rick sensibly watching and waiting; I agree that, at this point at least, he has given up and surrendered but I can easily see why he would feel that way (not that I think it's permanent, of course).

Edited November 24, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[mightysparrow]

On 11/23/2016 at 9:40 AM, imnoangel129 said:

It is interesting that badass Rick turned into candyass Rick after getting involved with Michonne.

Oh well you know, 'once you go Black'...

I believe 'Badass' Rick is the one who led his group on a mass-murder mission without bothering to find out if Negan was even on the premises.  Not to mention that whole 'planning an violent armed takeover of Alexandria because he wanted to fuck Jessie THAT badly'. 

Rick has been a 'candyass' for quite some time now.  The sad part is that a valuable warrior like Michonne has been reduced to playing Mammy not only to Rick's kids but now to Rick himself.  From the look on Michonne's face, Rick clearly isn't a 'badass' between the sheets.

[AngelaHunter]

21 hours ago, J----av said:

All of ricks useful fighters are dead (abe, Glenn)or not at Alexandria (Morgan, Carol, Sasha, Maggie, Heath, Tara)  besides Michonne and Rosita.

Well, I doubt Morgan-with-a-stick would have been much use anyway, but even non-combatants (and even Spencer) can shoot a machine gun and could have taken out most of Negan's crew without even opening the gates. But Rick never even thought to hide any weapons or even the list of weapons, etc. before Negan got there (yeah, I know Negan arrived early, so I guess Rick was saying, "Oh plenty of time. No worries! Pasta tonight?") so it's probably too much to expect them to be ready for the Saviors' arrival.

 

5 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Rick clearly isn't a 'badass' between the sheets.

Not anymore, if he ever was.

[Gobi]

16 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Well, I doubt Morgan-with-a-stick would have been much use anyway, but even non-combatants (and even Spencer) can shoot a machine gun and could have taken out most of Negan's crew without even opening the gates. But Rick never even thought to hide any weapons or even the list of weapons, etc. before Negan got there (yeah, I know Negan arrived early, so I guess Rick was saying, "Oh plenty of time. No worries! Pasta tonight?") so it's probably too much to expect them to be ready for the Saviors' arrival.

 

Not anymore, if he ever was.

Not  to mention the RPG launcher. That alone could have taken out most of Negan's gang.

[J----av]

On 11/23/2016 at 8:13 PM, Gobi said:

We don't know good or bad the Alexandrians are at fighting. Nor do we know how good the Saviors are, either. In the few fights involving the Saviors, they haven't been impressive. It's hard to believe that the Saviors would have any unit cohesion once Negan was dead, especially given the way he treats them. I would expect the whole group to fall apart once he died, and be more likely to fight each other than the Alexandrians. I doubt we'll ever find out.

   Yes we do, we have seen some attempt to. They suck so much that Gabriel and Eugen are often picked to help on runs. Rick came in and said they were all useless and soft. Whenever combat happens most hide while Rick and his crew go do all the work. Risking everyones live at a 1 in a million chance to kill Negan (and likely killing Daryl too) is stupid

 

 And the Saviors would probably still see that together they are all protected and the biggest most untouchable group. Plus Simon seems to have complete control over them also

[J----av]

6 hours ago, Gobi said:

Not  to mention the RPG launcher. That alone could have taken out most of Negan's gang.

Its and RPG, not atom bomb. And they only have one shot left (Daryl used the other 2). Negan and his 5 big trucks, cars and 50 men are not standing in a circle. They take out like 1 truck and 5 guys with the RPG. Probably kill Daryl since he was in the front truck.

 

 And most of Negans gang is not at Alexandria. Killing the 50 or so men that came with Negan still gets them all killed when Simon rounds up the hundred or so men that didn't come and go kill everyone.

[J----av]

7 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Well, I doubt Morgan-with-a-stick would have been much use anyway, but even non-combatants (and even Spencer) can shoot a machine gun and could have taken out most of Negan's crew without even opening the gates. But Rick never even thought to hide any weapons or even the list of weapons, etc. before Negan got there (yeah, I know Negan arrived early, so I guess Rick was saying, "Oh plenty of time. No worries! Pasta tonight?") so it's probably too much to expect them to be ready for the Saviors' arrival.

 

Not anymore, if he ever was.

 

 They are not all just standing in a freaking line out in the open. They are in cars and in the back of big ass trucks. And does everyone forget that Simon and like a hundred other Saviors are not even there? Killing Negan and his men with him just buys them another day before they are all killed. Also everyone seems to forget Ricks BFF is standing right beside Negan

Edited November 25, 2016 by J----av

[J----av]

14 hours ago, maczero said:

There is one in Springfield and it literally sits on the border with Alexandria.  Although I think the employees would've cleaned the place out within the first couple weeks after society fell.  BTW, Daryl and the gay guy (forgot his name) did forage at a distribution facility when they fell into a trap set by the wolves.

I think we have a pretty good idea of the average Alexandrian's fighting capabilities.  These people used to cut and run whenever they encountered more than a couple walkers.   The Wolves slaughtered about half of them in a daylight attack.  And the Wolves didn't even have guns.  Now the Alexandrians did manage to defeat the huge zombie horde that came from the quarry so their walker fighting skills have improved.  However I don't think they're ready to go up against thinking opponents who have a numbers advantage and more firearms. 

 

 Daryl killed most of them with the fire and he (and most of the people that killed the rest of the Walkers) are not able to fight at the time

[J----av]

On 11/23/2016 at 10:40 PM, jvr said:

No, he got with Michonne and was extremely cocky and decided to mass murder a group of people in their sleep (do you count that as being a candyass?). He was super over confident and Michonne tried to temper him. He has now become a candyass after two of his members got their heads bashed in and he was humiliated to the point of almost chopping his own sons arm off. They have switched roles with Michonne wanting to be on the offensive (but not reckless I don't think) and he wanting to play it safe (and only making them even less safe). It doesn't matter though because crazy insane (badass?) Rick will have to make an appearance at some point to get them out of this.

It's maddening! Rick and co. are so going about this wrong, I don't care how many times someone says Negan has thousands of men. They should have run or they should have fought, and the first time Negan showed up was the perfect opportunity. Put a gun in everyones hands and tell them to pull the damn trigger on anyone not an Alexandrian. I understand how broken Rick is but I can't get behind this stupid ass idea of doing what Negan says being in any way a good idea.

 Uh..... everyone always seems to forget/ignore that Daryl is with Negans men and shooting on Negan would probably get Daryl killed. Rick isn't getting his BFF killed after he already got Glenn and Abe killed. Plus the whole hundreds of Saviors that are not even with Negan.

 

 They should have run. Fighting at the time is by far the worst option. WAY worse then just giving them what they want

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, J----av said:

Its and RPG, not atom bomb.

I literally know how to make nuclear weapons. How awesome would it be if someone showed up with one? Why not!

[Gobi]

5 hours ago, J----av said:

Its and RPG, not atom bomb. And they only have one shot left (Daryl used the other 2). Negan and his 5 big trucks, cars and 50 men are not standing in a circle. They take out like 1 truck and 5 guys with the RPG. Probably kill Daryl since he was in the front truck.

 

 And most of Negans gang is not at Alexandria. Killing the 50 or so men that came with Negan still gets them all killed when Simon rounds up the hundred or so men that didn't come and go kill everyone.

 

Since neither Rick nor anyone else seems to have given any thought about what to do, this is an academic exercise, now that they have no weapons.

Negan and his merry men (and women) are bunched up along the road to the gate, with no attempt at any tactical deployment, and are extremely vulnerable  to a standard "L" shaped formation ambush, with some of the Alexandrians firing from cover in the houses along the road. Take out the last truck with an RPG and they're trapped. 

We've only seen Rick's people fighting because they're the stars of the show.

From what we've seen of Negan's training methods, his people would make very poor soldiers, as he's beaten every ounce of initiative out of them.

Somehow, if Negan's group got wiped out, I don't think the reaction of the others would be "Let's go get 'em!" When Rick wiped out the group that was handling the Hilltop, Negan didn't show up with everyone else and wipe out Hilltop. His people aren't used to real opposition.

Darryl is at risk, but Rick's group would at least be on the lookout for him. Meanwhile, every time Negan shows up, someone is at risk of being killed by him.

Unless this turns into The Negan Show, something like this is going to happen sooner or later. Either that, or every episode becomes "watch Rick and his ragtag band run away again".

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

Negan and his merry men (and women) are bunched up along the road to the gate, with no attempt at any tactical deployment, and are extremely vulnerable  to a standard "L" shaped formation ambush, with some of the Alexandrians firing from cover in the houses along the road. Take out the last truck with an RPG and they're trapped. 

Right and after Negan is dead and a bunch of his people get mowed down - and they would, standing grouped together like that - I kind of doubt the survivors would bother rallying any more men to return and risk more of them dying, for what? They probably don't need any more mattresses to burn, wing chairs or candlesticks and Negan didn't even want their food.

[KirkB]

15 hours ago, J----av said:

Uh..... everyone always seems to forget/ignore that Daryl is with Negans men and shooting on Negan would probably get Daryl killed. Rick isn't getting his BFF killed after he already got Glenn and Abe killed. Plus the whole hundreds of Saviors that are not even with Negan.

Uh, I don't think anyone is forgetting that. But I'm not sure anyone wants to see the characters we have been watching all these seasons just bend over for Negan instead of fighting. Like they always have. The thing is, maybe Rick and the Alexandrians would have lost. Maybe, somehow, Negan and the group he had with him would have busted through the gates without any of them getting shot by the dozens of guns the Alexandrians had and slaughtered every single one of them. I'm still inclined to think Rick and his crew had the advantage, even if it did mean Daryl getting killed in the crossfire. But even with that risk, I would rather try and fail to kill Negan, perhaps getting killed in the process that just hand over all my guns (which they need to protect themselves from Walkers and people like them), than just let him waltz in unmolested stealing and destroying whatever he likes, only to come back and do it the next week, every time hoping he doesn't show up in a bad mood and decide to kill a few people for kicks. Plus, Simon might be a psycho, but if he got word that Negan and everyone one of the top guys he took with him got slaughtered by the Alexandrians I don't think he'd be all "Well damn it, we gotta avenge him!" it would be more like "Guess this means I'm in charge now" and "The first order of business is to leave those dangerous folks alone."  Besides, if this is going to be the show from now on, whiny Rick, everyone at Negan's beck and call, why would I want to watch that?

Edited November 25, 2016 by KirkB

[The Mighty Peanut]

On 11/21/2016 at 0:59 PM, Nowhere said:

Ha! I was thinking while watching this show that the most valuable thing to me would be a yellow pages, if you could find one of those together with a map you would be golden (good luck finding one but some shit just never dies). I'd go to every gun shop listed in a 100 mile radius and ransack that..look for warehouses of storage...maybe a amazon fulfillment center (I know there is one in VA, I might actually live in that warehouse), go to small establishments for items instead of huge malls (probably already ransacked and too much of chance of running into other people/zombies). I'd plan my whole existence around the yellow pages.

I think about this kind of thing all the time. I get that it's not a show about making sensible choices but I can't help but wonder, for instance, why they haven't hit a car dealership (manageable walker threat, access to cars and gasoline). 

[oakville]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

I think about this kind of thing all the time. I get that it's not a show about making sensible choices but I can't help but wonder, for instance, why they haven't hit a car dealership (manageable walker threat, access to cars and gasoline). 

It always amuses me that they drive such crappy cars on the show. There must be some new car dealerships in Alexandria that they could ransack.

[J----av]

15 hours ago, Gobi said:

 

Since neither Rick nor anyone else seems to have given any thought about what to do, this is an academic exercise, now that they have no weapons.

Negan and his merry men (and women) are bunched up along the road to the gate, with no attempt at any tactical deployment, and are extremely vulnerable  to a standard "L" shaped formation ambush, with some of the Alexandrians firing from cover in the houses along the road. Take out the last truck with an RPG and they're trapped. 

We've only seen Rick's people fighting because they're the stars of the show.

From what we've seen of Negan's training methods, his people would make very poor soldiers, as he's beaten every ounce of initiative out of them.

Somehow, if Negan's group got wiped out, I don't think the reaction of the others would be "Let's go get 'em!" When Rick wiped out the group that was handling the Hilltop, Negan didn't show up with everyone else and wipe out Hilltop. His people aren't used to real opposition.

Darryl is at risk, but Rick's group would at least be on the lookout for him. Meanwhile, every time Negan shows up, someone is at risk of being killed by him.

Unless this turns into The Negan Show, something like this is going to happen sooner or later. Either that, or every episode becomes "watch Rick and his ragtag band run away again".

 The show has gone out of its way several times to show how weak and useless almost everyone at Alexandria is

[J----av]

6 hours ago, KirkB said:

Uh, I don't think anyone is forgetting that. But I'm not sure anyone wants to see the characters we have been watching all these seasons just bend over for Negan instead of fighting. Like they always have. The thing is, maybe Rick and the Alexandrians would have lost. Maybe, somehow, Negan and the group he had with him would have busted through the gates without any of them getting shot by the dozens of guns the Alexandrians had and slaughtered every single one of them. I'm still inclined to think Rick and his crew had the advantage, even if it did mean Daryl getting killed in the crossfire. But even with that risk, I would rather try and fail to kill Negan, perhaps getting killed in the process that just hand over all my guns (which they need to protect themselves from Walkers and people like them), than just let him waltz in unmolested stealing and destroying whatever he likes, only to come back and do it the next week, every time hoping he doesn't show up in a bad mood and decide to kill a few people for kicks. Plus, Simon might be a psycho, but if he got word that Negan and everyone one of the top guys he took with him got slaughtered by the Alexandrians I don't think he'd be all "Well damn it, we gotta avenge him!" it would be more like "Guess this means I'm in charge now" and "The first order of business is to leave those dangerous folks alone."  Besides, if this is going to be the show from now on, whiny Rick, everyone at Negan's beck and call, why would I want to watch that?

 Easy to say when you don't have all your family and loved ones going against near impossible odds. Rick already tried fighting last season (and with better fighters by his side) and it ended up getting him in the line watching his friends heads getting bashed in.

 

 And its obviously NOT going to just be Negan rolling up and taking what he wants every week. Rick or someone will eventually come up with some sort of plan that will coast far less lives then foolishly trying to fight the far larger group. Like collaborating with Hilltop and The Kingdom or something. I have seen enough of the "Rick fights back right away and kicks everyone's ass". I like that he is finally challenged and will have to come up with a better plan then just kicking ass. The execution of the story is poor, but the idea is good

[KirkB]

9 minutes ago, J----av said:

Easy to say when you don't have all your family and loved ones going against near impossible odds. Rick already tried fighting last season (and with better fighters by his side) and it ended up getting him in the line watching his friends heads getting bashed in.

Oh sure, and they're so much safer giving away their guns and just kneeling before Negan. Besides, it's not like fighting has worked for them in the past.

11 minutes ago, J----av said:

 And its obviously NOT going to just be Negan rolling up and taking what he wants every week. Rick or someone will eventually come up with some sort of plan that will coast far less lives then foolishly trying to fight the far larger group. Like collaborating with Hilltop and The Kingdom or something. I have seen enough of the "Rick fights back right away and kicks everyone's ass". I like that he is finally challenged and will have to come up with a better plan then just kicking ass. The execution of the story is poor, but the idea is good

How do you know that? As I recall they spent an entire season sitting around a farm a while back. They may spend a season sitting around Alexandria, working for Negan. And what plan could they come up, collaborating with the Hilltop and the Kingdom, that does NOT involve fighting the far larger group you keep saying is unbeatable?

[ganesh]

I think the point is that they need to coordinate with the other groups to deal with Negan and think up a way they can actually fight back. The typical force on force isn't going to work. Just having everyone cowtow to Negan et al., isn't going to be compelling tv, unless we're going to see some plotting and scheming. The fact that Negan "owns" everything has been clearly established, so let's actually have some plot now. 

[RedheadZombie]

I'm not clear on why everyone thought it would be dangerous for Negan's crew to see Sasha or Maggie.  The Saviors would have to be morons to not realize Rick was conspiring with Hilltop.  And Hilltop would have no idea that Maggie's death had been faked.  And it seemed pretty clear that Rick and the RV were heading to Hilltop due to Maggie's illness.  Why wouldn't that journey be concluded once Negan was done with them?

I'm adding my voice to the call for some female writing influence.  No hug between Maggie and Sasha when Maggie lives with baby Rhee still on board.   Enid risks her life to be with her foster mother, not even knowing if Maggie still lives.   And they have a nonchalant reunion, "oh, hey", with no hug. 

This after the lingering shots of heart eyes when Daryl is taken from his true love Rick.  They do bromance so well on this show, but really miss it with the women. 

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

They do bromance so well on this show, but really miss it with the women. 

As I've mentioned, the (apparently) teenaged boys who write this show (even if they're only mentally teenagers, like Kirkman) seem to know absolultely zero about women - their feelings, the way they talk, their concerns or their reactions to anything.  Gore, even if totally unrealistic, is their forte.

Quote

It always amuses me that they drive such crappy cars on the show.

Seriously. Like, how long did it take to find that 1980 Gremlin to send into the Hilltop?

Oops. Meant "Hilltop" and typed "Alexandria." I blame the wine and my boredom at the last ep.

Edited November 27, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 6:45 PM, J----av said:

 They don't even know where Negan lives

And yet within hours of arriving at Hilltop, Maggie has Jesus on the case.  About a million steps ahead of Rick and whatever he's planning, or not planning.

 

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 10:40 AM, TattleTeeny said:

I just don't really see this either. Like slf said, Rick has had PTSD moments before (and who can blame him?), and you could argue that killing Shane/the exodus from the farm were moments that morphed capable-yet-diplomatic Rick into bad-ass dictator Rick.

Then he became nutty and practically a pacifist after Lori died, he was basically in a coma after temporarily losing Judith, and even as he found the relative safety of Alexandria, he couldn't relax; even with Carol, Michonne, and Daryl right there, all calm yet vigilant, he flipped back into aggressive. And now he's witnessed two friends brutally murdered in front of his face--and one whisked away to the enemy camp--due in large part to an attack he planned (which happened not too long after his failed truck-quarry idea), all while being so close to having to permanently maim his own child. Add to all that that he doesn't know where some of his people even are at this point and also the responsibility on his shoulders to protect not just his two children, but everyone (whether or not he puts that on himself is irrelevant)...of course he's not running headlong into combat willy-nilly.

That said, I don't think that this is Rick sensibly watching and waiting; I agree that, at this point at least, he has given up and surrendered but I can easily see why he would feel that way (not that I think it's permanent, of course).

I completely agree.  I don't think the writing is clear enough.  Is Rick cowed or faking it?  Well he did nothing to prepare for Negan's arrival, and did nothing but whine about it when Negan showed up.  That leads me to believe he's broken.  Yet he fingers Lucille like he's restraining himself from bashing in Negan's head, and he's slow to respond to Negan's questions and commands.  And all that's telling me is Rick is chafing at not being the head badass in charge.  Why not write Alexandria seriously scrambling to prepare, but being caught off guard by Negan's early arrival.  Instead, Negan spot checks Rick to find him doing nothing.  And Rick's response is to complain.

And it wouldn't be so infuriating, but we're supposed to believe that Rosita, Michonne, and Carl, just stood around hand-wringing, waiting for Rick to snap out of it and make a plan.  Well they've been around long enough to know that Rick is a terrible planner, and a failure at sole leadership.  He's great when a plan fails, and he does well with a committee of trusted advisors, with equal voices.  Let Rick mumble to himself and work through his trauma, but show R/M/C picking up the slack!  Negan is jonesing for a baby, and there's little Judith Grimes, vulnerable without her primary nanny warriors.

And speaking of traumatized people who've just lost loved ones, there's Sasha and Maggie kicking ass and taking down names.  Maggie just got off of death's door, is still in danger of a miscarriage, newly widowed, and has lost every person she's ever been related to, Sasha, too, yet their brains are still functioning, and they're actually saving people they have absolutely no connection to.  And I imagine Maggie is carrying a load of guilt, as big or even bigger, than Rick's.  Maggie helped negotiate the assassination deal, and her sickness is what put most of them on the road (excluding those put in danger d/t Daryl's manpain).

[Raven1707]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Enid risks her life to be with her foster mother, not even knowing if Maggie still lives.   And they have a nonchalant reunion, "oh, hey", with no hug. 

I just watched that scene; Maggie & Enid do hug, although not immediately.

[Mu Shu]

On 11/24/2016 at 1:34 AM, Nashville said:

It was a Ford.  Fuck it.

Thems fighting words.  First On Race Day.

[Gobi]

36 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

Thems fighting words.  First On Race Day.

Fix Or Repair Daily.

Found On Road Dead.

Just kidding.

[Raven1707]

The Cable Live +3 Ratings are in for "Go Getters":

“The Walking Dead” remained No. 1 on cable (and TV as a whole), although it’s still in decline week to week. The Nov. 20 episode — the least-watched since Season 3 in the overnight numbers — grew by 2.2 points in adults 18-49 (5.2 to 7.4), down from a 2.3-point gain the previous week. It also added 4.27 million viewers vs. 4.32 million the week before. [15.267 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/dvr-ratings/cable-live-3-ratings-for-nov-14-20-2016/

And here are the Live +Same Day and Live +3 ratings for Season 7 so far:

10-23-16 “The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be” 17.029 million; 20.793 million
10-30-16 “The Well” 12.455 million; 16.849 million
11-06-16 “The Cell” 11.721 million; 16.225 million
11-13-16 “Service” 11.402 million; 15.718 million
11-20-16 “Go Getters” 10.996 million; 15.267 million

[Raven1707]

And finally, the Cable Live +7 ratings are in for "Go Getters":

“The Walking Dead” has declined markedly in overnight ratings since its near-record season premiere in October. Ratings after a week of DVR and on-demand viewing are down as well, since the portion of the audience that catches up after the initial airing is pretty stable.

The Nov. 20 episode of the show added 2.7 points in adults 18-49 to its total, rising from 5.2 to 7.9. That’s in line with other episodes this season, which have risen from between 2.3 and 2.9. “The Walking Dead” is still huge — the Nov. 20 episode had the biggest gains by far in both adults 18-49 and viewers — but its losses in the same-day ratings are more or less reflected in the delayed-viewing numbers as well. [16.308 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/dvr-ratings/cable-live-7-ratings-for-nov-14-20-2016/

Here are the Live + Same Day, Live +3, and Live +7 ratings for Season 7 so far:

10-23-16 “The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be” 17.029 million; 20.793 million; 21.528 million
10-30-16 “The Well” 12.455 million; 16.849 million; 17.947 million
11-06-16 “The Cell” 11.721 million; 16.225 million; 17.208 million
11-13-16 “Service” 11.402 million; 15.718 million; not reported
11-20-16 “Go Getters” 10.996 million; 15.267 million; 16.308 million

[Nashville]

On 11/28/2016 at 5:00 PM, Gobi said:

Fix Or Repair Daily.

Found On Road Dead.

Just kidding.

Damn.  Beat me to it.  ;>

 

On 11/27/2016 at 6:14 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Is Rick cowed or faking it? 

These are the only two options?  :>

Personally, I think Rick is shellshocked.  CDB's past experience had gotten them thoroughly accustomed to a specific new worldview - one in which the surviving portion of society was broken up into small cluster communities rarely numbering more than a few dozen.  In truth, this was a very acceptable and manageable world view for CDB in general, and Rick (as CDB's leader) in particular; road-hardened as they were, walking through the shadow of the valley of death was rarely a problem because they were usually the baddest motherfucker in the damn valley.

As it turned out, what Rick took for the "valley" of the world was actually just a ditch in the backwater - but he (and most of the rest of CDB) didn't know that.  Not until they accidentally wandered out of the comfort zone of their little ditch and into the actual valley, that is, and met a bigger badder motherfucker named Negan - oh, and a couple hundred of his close personal friends.  Not counting, of course, the handful of Saviors CDB had whacked here and there along the way, of course....

Edited December 2, 2016 by Nashville

[RedheadZombie]

It's a sad day when Sister Wives has more than twice the pages of comments than TWD.   It used to be a struggle to keep up here. 

[GodsBeloved]

On 11/27/2016 at 7:14 PM, RedheadZombie said:

And yet within hours of arriving at Hilltop, Maggie has Jesus on the case.  About a million steps ahead of Rick and whatever he's planning, or not planning.

 

I completely agree.  I don't think the writing is clear enough.  Is Rick cowed or faking it?  Well he did nothing to prepare for Negan's arrival, and did nothing but whine about it when Negan showed up.  That leads me to believe he's broken.  Yet he fingers Lucille like he's restraining himself from bashing in Negan's head, and he's slow to respond to Negan's questions and commands.  And all that's telling me is Rick is chafing at not being the head badass in charge.  Why not write Alexandria seriously scrambling to prepare, but being caught off guard by Negan's early arrival.  Instead, Negan spot checks Rick to find him doing nothing.  And Rick's response is to complain.

And it wouldn't be so infuriating, but we're supposed to believe that Rosita, Michonne, and Carl, just stood around hand-wringing, waiting for Rick to snap out of it and make a plan.  Well they've been around long enough to know that Rick is a terrible planner, and a failure at sole leadership.  He's great when a plan fails, and he does well with a committee of trusted advisors, with equal voices.  Let Rick mumble to himself and work through his trauma, but show R/M/C picking up the slack!  Negan is jonesing for a baby, and there's little Judith Grimes, vulnerable without her primary nanny warriors.

And speaking of traumatized people who've just lost loved ones, there's Sasha and Maggie kicking ass and taking down names.  Maggie just got off of death's door, is still in danger of a miscarriage, newly widowed, and has lost every person she's ever been related to, Sasha, too, yet their brains are still functioning, and they're actually saving people they have absolutely no connection to.  And I imagine Maggie is carrying a load of guilt, as big or even bigger, than Rick's.  Maggie helped negotiate the assassination deal, and her sickness is what put most of them on the road (excluding those put in danger d/t Daryl's manpain).

YES to all of this especially the bolded part.