myname2use4now January 10, 2017 Share January 10, 2017 On 11/24/2016 at 9:47 AM, Clanstarling said: This was the moment during which I had the most sympathy for Churchill. Having your illusions swept away is rough, no matter how powerful you are (or think you are). And, as someone getting increasingly creaky, though decades away from Winnie's age, it spoke to me And he played Thomas Jefferson in the John Adams miniseries. Versatile man. I didn't recognize him at all (despite being a GoT fan), the mister (the JA fan) kept saying "there's something familiar about him" so we looked it up. I found the Porchey subplot a bit tedious. And I'm tired of whiny Phillip. I haven't a clue if the real Phillip is anything like portrayed, but boy, they do not present him well, with the exception of playing with his children (though when I see him horsing around, I keep seeing Matt's Dr. Who - which to the actor's credit - is the only time I see the doctor.) I was glad that they showed the Porchey subplot. Especially, since it's rumored that he is Prince Andrew's biological father (take a look at side by side pics of the two). I thought it was a good way of adding a complex layer to the Queen's personality. I thought they did a good job on it. But to your point, maybe they should do something for Prince Philips character along the same line. I hate the way he just stares at people as though it's the same thing at delivering a line. It will be interesting to see how their relationship develops on screen as the Prince is supposedly the Queen's biggest supporter, but it didn't always seem that way early on. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-2890740
Tara Ariano January 10, 2017 Share January 10, 2017 In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode! Elizabeth's Rocky Marriage Gets Even More Tense In The Penultimate Episode Of The Crown In 'Assassins,' the return of Elizabeth's old friend puts even more strain on her troubled marriage. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-2892169
huahaha January 16, 2017 Share January 16, 2017 (edited) I thought the real painting must be unflattering because it was accurate, but a photo of Churchill at age 80 doesn't look nearly as pitiful: https://asenseofplace.com/2014/11/18/mr-churchill-and-the-creation-of-the-nhs/ While I was sympathetic to a portrait capturing the deeper self, making the head of government look weaker than reality seems a poor choice. I don't blame Churchill for tossing it. As a side note, I'm reminded of Kate Middleton's portrait. While it certainly looked like her and captured some of her somber nature, it seemed mean. Like the artist had chosen to see her years later after heavy smoking and stress instead of as a young, beautiful princess with a reflective side. Edited January 16, 2017 by huahaha 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-2906252
paramitch February 13, 2017 Share February 13, 2017 On 1/9/2017 at 3:53 PM, Crs97 said: Here's a link to the painting: https://www.google.com/search?q=winston+churchill+lost+painting&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiIqPOTn7bRAhUBxYMKHfYQCqkQ_AUIBygB&biw=320&bih=529#imgrc=lgxsxAxIF97gXM%3A Thank you SO much for this. I'm so moved to be able to see the sketches and preliminaries. Just incredible. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-2984953
Roseanna February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 On 18.11.2016 at 7:57 PM, Rinaldo said: Nicely put. The "horse sex scene" was another example of Philip perceiving a part of Elizabeth's life (really, one of the few parts of her life where nobody's putting limits on her) as something excluding him, and resenting it. For all her seemingly sheltered, restrained-to-immobility aspects, she (like other horse-involved people) sees breeding as a completely unremarkable, unsalacious part of the business. It must take place if so arranged, and must be seen to have taken place -- all in a day's work. Whereas her husband can only react with jokes and uncomfortable remarks, all the while understanding on some level that (yet again) he's not living up to her standards. It's probable deliberate that in many scenes Margaret rides (symbolizing freedom) whereas Elizabeth is interested in breeding (symbolizing continuity). 1 11 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3018278
Clanstarling February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 Just now, Roseanna said: It's probable deliberate that in many scenes Margaret rides (symbolizing freedom) whereas Elizabeth is interested in breeding (symbolizing continuity). That's interesting. Also, excitement vs duty (well maybe those are slightly different aspects of the same thing). 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3018282
Milburn Stone February 24, 2017 Share February 24, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, Clanstarling said: That's interesting. Also, excitement vs duty (well maybe those are slightly different aspects of the same thing). That's cool, @Clanstarling. And I'd suggest yet a slightly different (although again closely related) interpretation: immediate gratification vs. delayed. But kudos to @Roseanna for picking up on the differing horse symbolism, which galloped right past me, and to @Rinaldo, for explicating the breeding scene so well. Edited February 24, 2017 by Milburn Stone 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3020661
thuganomics85 September 12, 2017 Share September 12, 2017 Stephen Dillane! Had no idea he was going to appear on this show. Actually took me a few seconds to place him: he really does embodied any character he plays. Although, I did think that if Stannis ever did paint (which is quite unlikely), he would be similar to Sutherland, because I can see Stannis bristling over changing things around and simply going "That doesn't make any sense! Why make stuff up when I can just paint what I see?" Either way, I guess it is just an one-off gig, but he was fantastic and his interactions with John Lithgow were riveting (and sometimes heartbreaking.) Personally, I loved the episode. I don't exactly "like" Winston Churchill here, but I think Lithgow has perfectly captured him and made him a man who is capable of good and has done good, even great things in his career, but he's also bitter, pigheaded, and truly in denial about his age and his limits. But I find it realistic that someone like him would be this way. It reminds me of the various career politicians (in various countries) who keep serving, even when it seems obvious that they are behind the times and have even become ineffective and obsolete. There's just that drive there and, yes, ego, that makes them keep doing it, and I suspect it would practically take someone dragging them out by force to finally make them quit. And while I'm glad he did step down at the end, I wonder if he'll ever be the same after. But a great episode and insight into him. I have to imagine this the episode Lithgow summited to the Emmys and if so, he's got a pretty solid shot come Sunday. Was unaware of this Porchey guy, so getting a look into his and Elizabeth's relationship and history was interesting. I wonder what it was that made Elizabeth still pick Philip over him? Was it all political or for social status, or despite their major issues, she just simply loves Philip in a way she never will with Porchey? Of course, I might not be questioning this if Philip wasn't continuing to be the worse. Glad she finally told him off and, for once, he actually looked like he realized he was shit. Christ, get it together, Philip! Now that Anthony Eden is PM, I'm looking forward to seeing Jeremy Northam get more to do, hopefully. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3630125
dubbel zout September 12, 2017 Share September 12, 2017 6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said: she just simply loves Philip in a way she never will with Porchey This. Elizabeth fell in love with Philip when she was 13. He was blindingly handsome (IMO). His grandson Harry didn't call him a stud for nothing. 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3630497
Roseanna December 2, 2017 Share December 2, 2017 On 12.9.2017 at 10:41 AM, thuganomics85 said: Was unaware of this Porchey guy, so getting a look into his and Elizabeth's relationship and history was interesting. I wonder what it was that made Elizabeth still pick Philip over him? Was it all political or for social status, or despite their major issues, she just simply loves Philip in a way she never will with Porchey? Of course, I might not be questioning this if Philip wasn't continuing to be the worse. Glad she finally told him off and, for once, he actually looked like he realized he was shit. Christ, get it together, Philip! On 12.9.2017 at 5:06 PM, dubbel zout said: This. Elizabeth fell in love with Philip when she was 13. He was blindingly handsome (IMO). His grandson Harry didn't call him a stud for nothing. I think there are reasons why Elizabeth fell in love just with Philip and that she never loved anybody else. (Irl there would be difficult, even impossible to find reasons, but in the drama they are obvious.) On the basis of what we have seen of Porchy, I think Philip was the only man in her life who ever treated her just as she were any girl and woman, not with the respect that even young men of the highest aristocracy treated the Princess and the Queen. That was due to partly that Philip was also a royal by birth and partly that Philip hadn't romantic view of women even during the courting but only the old-fashioned tendency to think that men are by nature higher than women. Remember also what the Queen Mother tells about her marriage: that George VI was a wonderful husband but he needed much support - so much that she was the head of family. Evidently Elizabeth, although loving her father deeply, wanted a husband of another kind. And their relationship worked in the beginning - on the basis what we saw about their life in Malta, Philip enjoyed his naval career whereas Elizabeth enjoyed her traditional secondary role as a wife who filmed her husband's sporting achievements and arranged a party in the honor of his promotion. The problems in their marriage began only after Elizabeth became the Queen, Philip had to abandon his naval career he loved, he couldn't even give his surname to his children and whereas Elizabeth had an important work, he didn't anything to do but to amuse himself. So, although Philip behaves badly, one can understand him. Besides, a drama need problems. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3861429
ElectricBoogaloo December 2, 2017 Share December 2, 2017 Ahhh, more dickish behavior from Philip. You stay out until all hours of the night, you come home drunk and yelling in the driveway, and then you peek into your wife's room and whisper her name to see if she's still awake. I had to laugh at seeing Margaret riding her horse while holding a cigarette in one hand. It was sweet to see how moved Winston was by Elizabeth's speech. While I understand why he was upset by an unflattering portrait, it was clear from their first meeting that they would be at odds because Sutherland wanted accuracy, no matter how unflattering, and Winston wanted the truth as he saw it (leaving out a factory if it marred the landscape he was painting). Elizabeth's little speech to Philip was great and illustrated one of the great truths: you love who you love, even when you know someone else might be better suited for you. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3861597
Ceindreadh December 2, 2017 Share December 2, 2017 10 hours ago, Roseanna said: I think there are reasons why Elizabeth fell in love just with Philip and that she never loved anybody else. (Irl there would be difficult, even impossible to find reasons, but in the drama they are obvious.) On the basis of what we have seen of Porchy, I think Philip was the only man in her life who ever treated her just as she were any girl and woman, not with the respect that even young men of the highest aristocracy treated the Princess and the Queen. That was due to partly that Philip was also a royal by birth and partly that Philip hadn't romantic view of women even during the courting but only the old-fashioned tendency to think that men are by nature higher than women. Remember also what the Queen Mother tells about her marriage: that George VI was a wonderful husband but he needed much support - so much that she was the head of family. Evidently Elizabeth, although loving her father deeply, wanted a husband of another kind. And their relationship worked in the beginning - on the basis what we saw about their life in Malta, Philip enjoyed his naval career whereas Elizabeth enjoyed her traditional secondary role as a wife who filmed her husband's sporting achievements and arranged a party in the honor of his promotion. The problems in their marriage began only after Elizabeth became the Queen, Philip had to abandon his naval career he loved, he couldn't even give his surname to his children and whereas Elizabeth had an important work, he didn't anything to do but to amuse himself. So, although Philip behaves badly, one can understand him. Besides, a drama need problems. I think things would have been a lot different if they'd had more time to be Lieutenant and Mrs Mountbatten before having to become Queen Elizabeth and her consort. Yes, Philip knew going in that Elizabeth would one day be queen, but I don't think anybody could have expected that it would happen so soon. It was what, 5 years after their marriage? He probably expected that it would have been 20 to 25 years before he'd have had to give up his career and by then it might have been easier to deal with for both of them. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3862305
dubbel zout December 2, 2017 Share December 2, 2017 That's the thing about being heir to the throne: At any minute you could be called up for the big job. 10 hours ago, Roseanna said: Remember also what the Queen Mother tells about her marriage: that George VI was a wonderful husband but he needed much support - so much that she was the head of family. Because George VI was so unexpectedly called up for the big job. You'd think that because he was so ill-prepared on all fronts he and QEQM would have made it a point to do a better job with Elizabeth once he became king. Though to be fair, George VI was confronted with a lot immediately. He not only had to reassure the country the monarchy was stable, but WWII was not far off. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3862333
Roseanna December 2, 2017 Share December 2, 2017 18 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said: if they'd had more time to be Lieutenant and Mrs Mountbatten I doubt that Elizabeth was never called Mrs, she was always Princess and HRH. Besides, as Philip was made Duke by George VI. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3862347
Ceindreadh December 2, 2017 Share December 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Roseanna said: I doubt that Elizabeth was never called Mrs, she was always Princess and HRH. Besides, as Philip was made Duke by George VI. True. But effectively when they were stationed in Malta(?), they were just a young married couple, albeit a titled couple. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3862501
andromeda331 December 3, 2017 Share December 3, 2017 5 hours ago, dubbel zout said: That's the thing about being heir to the throne: At any minute you could be called up for the big job. Because George VI was so unexpectedly called up for the big job. Philip acts like his situation is the same as George VI that he and his wife were suddenly thrown into the royal of Queen. That'll of this is a surprise. Not that he knew from the moment he met Elizabeth that she was a future Queen. Its not the same thing. Yes, he probably assumed it would be later. I'd have sympathy for him about that if he wasn't constantly whining. His in-laws didn't want the job but they did it. Maybe they whined in private. But Philip's still whining through out all of season one. He never grows up and starts doing his job. Quote You'd think that because he was so ill-prepared on all fronts he and QEQM would have made it a point to do a better job with Elizabeth once he became king. Though to be fair, George VI was confronted with a lot immediately. He not only had to reassure the country the monarchy was stable, but WWII was not far off. This part I don't understand. I completely understand how busy he was with WWII. But knowing how he ended up with the role and unprepared for it. I can't believe he wouldn't have thought to make sure his daughter was as prepared as possible. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3862971
Roseanna December 3, 2017 Share December 3, 2017 On 12/2/2017 at 9:33 PM, andromeda331 said: This part I don't understand. I completely understand how busy he was with WWII. But knowing how he ended up with the role and unprepared for it. I can't believe he wouldn't have thought to make sure his daughter was as prepared as possible. It might be that, like many fathers at that time, George VI thought that bringing up daughters was a mother's business. And Elizabeth gave her daughters same kind of education that she had herself got - suitable for an aristocratic girl whose only aim in life was to marry well. Actually, it was also Margaret that suffered because she lacked education. If she had had something meaningful to do, losing Townsend woudn't be so fateful. On 12/2/2017 at 3:33 PM, Ceindreadh said: I think things would have been a lot different if they'd had more time to be Lieutenant and Mrs Mountbatten before having to become Queen Elizabeth and her consort. Yes, Philip knew going in that Elizabeth would one day be queen, but I don't think anybody could have expected that it would happen so soon. It was what, 5 years after their marriage? He probably expected that it would have been 20 to 25 years before he'd have had to give up his career and by then it might have been easier to deal with for both of them. It could be better to their marriage, but would it be better to Elizabeth's duties as Queen? She was inexperienced, but it's perhaps easier to learn a new job and role when one is young than when one is middle-aged and set in ones habits. In addition, I doubt she could have lived long such a private life like in Malta. As an heir to the throne her duty would have been to make long travels around the world, just as Duke of Windsor did as Prince of Wales. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3863275
Peace 47 December 3, 2017 Share December 3, 2017 I thought that this episode was a good finale to a major theme of the season: the process of death and dying and how it’s ugly and sometimes scary and ultimately something that must be acknowledged in a meaningful way. And maybe how it’s necessary to keep moving forward in the face of it. The King wasn’t told of the seriousness of his illness until quite late, but still put on the stiff upper lip and chose to face his death with peaceful moments with his family at the end because that is what was most important to him. Queen Mary dealt with her illness with sharp wit and clarity. She reached a final detente with Edward, even if she never forgave him because the end is scary and lonely. Winston was aged and betrayed by his body all season, and in bitter denial of that fact until this episode when he had to confront it (much like Anthony Eden). The episode also brought to light why Churchill took to Venetia Scott (reminded him of his dead daughter) and why he was so anguished by her death at the time (but ultimately it was a sudden death that he used as a political opportunity because one must always fight until the last). 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3864492
andromeda331 December 3, 2017 Share December 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Roseanna said: It could be better to their marriage, but would it be better to Elizabeth's duties as Queen? She was inexperienced, but it's perhaps easier to learn a new job and role when one is young than when one is middle-aged and set in ones habits. In addition, I doubt she could have lived long such a private life like in Malta. As an heir to the throne her duty would have been to make long travels around the world, just as Duke of Windsor did as Prince of Wales. That's true. She would still have a lot of duties to do as a heir including travel. David traveled a lot as Prince of Wales. Her parents did a great deal of work and travel as Duke and Duchess of York her father being the second son. They represented King George at various events at home and abroad. They under took a travel to Australia not long after Elizabeth was born. What made Philip think they wouldn't have to do anything? 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3864541
Roseanna December 4, 2017 Share December 4, 2017 10 hours ago, andromeda331 said: That's true. She would still have a lot of duties to do as a heir including travel. David traveled a lot as Prince of Wales. Her parents did a great deal of work and travel as Duke and Duchess of York her father being the second son. They represented King George at various events at home and abroad. They under took a travel to Australia not long after Elizabeth was born. What made Philip think they wouldn't have to do anything? Setting aside what Philip may have thought irl, in the show the reason is due his alpha male ego. When Elizabeth becomes the Queen, Philip tries to command her as his wife. He orders her to hold the field against Churchill and others by saying "Remember who you are" - although he himself acts if she were his subject, not his sovereign! Although it's a quite sad that her opinion is constantly defeated by Churchill, Tommy Lascelles and the Queen Mother, the other alternative would be that she would be for ever controlled by her husband. Now she has at least an option that whe will get more influence when she gets more experience in her job and the old guard will die out. Also, Philip's unpleasant behavior is needed to show what a heavy price in her private life Elizabeth has to pay by prioritizing her duties as the Queen. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3865707
Calvada December 5, 2017 Share December 5, 2017 Re who is Prince Andrew's father - Philip? Porchy? Aureole? I think Andrew looks a bit like Philip's mother, in the shape of the face, distance between nose and upper lip, thin upper lip. Although Aureole would explain the teeth . . . 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3867815
Roseanna December 5, 2017 Share December 5, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Calvada said: Re who is Prince Andrew's father - Philip? Porchy? I don't think there is any doubt. Spoiler Philip travelled around the globe between 20th January and 30th April and Andrew was born on 19th February next year. One can easily imagine their feelings when they met again... Also, both Elizabeth and Philip were very pleased about the pregancy and they evidently won their marital problems. I don't even believe that a woman with Elizabeth's character, morals and love for her husband would have ever been unfaithful. Edited December 5, 2017 by Roseanna 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3868646
Clanstarling December 5, 2017 Share December 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Roseanna said: I don't think there is any doubt. Reveal hidden contents Philip travelled around the globe between 20th January and 30th April and Andrew was born on 19th February next year. One can easily imagine their feelings when they met again... Also, both Elizabeth and Philip were very pleased about the pregancy and they evidently won their marital problems. I don't even believe that a woman with Elizabeth's character, morals and love for her husband would have ever been faithful. I agree. In the hidden contents, did you mean to put "un" in front of the last word? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3868833
Roseanna December 5, 2017 Share December 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, Clanstarling said: I agree. In the hidden contents, did you mean to put "un" in front of the last word? Yes. Thank you. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3868855
andromeda331 December 5, 2017 Share December 5, 2017 I agree I just don't see it from Elizabeth. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3869459
Calvada December 6, 2017 Share December 6, 2017 I agree, I don't think the Queen was ever unfaithful to Philip. And as I said, I think Andrew looks like Philip's mother. I see it especially in pictures of Andrew as a young boy. Genetics is a funny business. There was one of George V's children - the Duke of Gloucester - who looks nothing like his siblings, and I refuse to believe that Queen Mary fooled around. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3871214
dubbel zout December 6, 2017 Share December 6, 2017 As Cosmo Kramer once said, "Mother Nature is a mad scientist, Jerry!" 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3871329
Razzberry January 24, 2018 Share January 24, 2018 Finally got around to watching this. What a treat seeing Stephen Dillane as Sutherland. I didn't expect that. Those masterful scenes with Lithgow actually caused a lump in my throat. Poor Winston, I'm constantly fearful that he'll wet his pants, fall, or burst out crying. Perhaps all three. Brilliant but torturous, and now Jeremy Northam as Eden doesn't look that well himself! 'Porchy' is interesting, Margaret is unbearable in a love-to-hate way, and don't even get me started on Philip's stink-eye. This series is just excellent and I'm enjoying every minute of it. Subtle... 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-3994118
Roseanna January 27, 2018 Share January 27, 2018 On 9.1.2017 at 11:35 PM, snarktini said: It would be helpful to see the real painting of Churchill. Most commissioned portraiture is expected to be at least a little kind so I'm sympathetic to his displeasure. And while I agree with the artist that art should be honest, there's a range of honesty. You could catch me in the morning light with a double chin and puffy eyes and that would be totally true, but a picture of me would be equally true from a different angle in better light. Harsh reality has its place in art and portraiture, just not generally in a portrait for hire. I get what the artist was going for and perhaps Churchill was just being vain, but this just doesn't seem like the right deployment of that kind of character study. I'm also a bit surprised he wasn't able to preview it before it was unveiled. That said, Churchill seemed to be in quite a bit of denial, so a kinder portrait may still have upset him. Oh, Winnie. When I was in college, I had a drawing class that required me to do self-portraits a couple of times a week for an entire semester. It took more than half the semester for me to stop making myself prettier, with more idealized features. It was extraordinarily difficult to get real with the mirror. I think the meaning of this episode was to show that Churchill was in a state of denial: he was getting older and weaker and, in addition that he was unable to manage the office of the prime minister. the death came ever closer. Also, the pond that Churchill constantly painted was perhaps not only a symbol of his grief over his little girl but his own mind's hidden depths: he had often periods of depression - except during the WW2 when the horrors were outside. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-4004248
Inquisitionist February 13, 2018 Share February 13, 2018 Quote What a treat seeing Stephen Dillane as Sutherland. It is always a treat to see Stephen Dillane. What a fine actor! 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-4055025
ae2 August 3, 2018 Share August 3, 2018 Am I wrong in picking up allusions to The Picture of Dorian Gray here? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-4550897
scartact August 13, 2018 Share August 13, 2018 I just watched the entire series these last few weeks (I am typically late to the party) and this is the episode I tend to come back to the most, if only for that incredible monologue Elizabeth gives to Philip in the end in her full battle dress (a close second being when she throws the tennis racket at Philip in the previous episode!). I still haaate that the best apology he could give was a mouthed one, after her speech to Churchill. But regardless, I feel like that monologue was when I became fully taken with Claire Foy's performance, which I didn't want to like as much as I ended up loving, mostly because I really want Keri Russell to win an Emmy for her Elizabeth (though most predictions point to Elisabeth Moss going for the second, so there's that). Anyway, that's a silly reason to want to resist a great performance. Foy is incredible. But ugh, the character/emotional arcs on this show are just Not Good from a writing standpoint (though all the actors do great to find continuity) and so when Philip gives her that mouthed apology, I was struggling to figure out if it's the writing or Matt Smith's performance, or a combination of both that just make Philip so awfully unsympathetic, regardless of what season 2 attempted to show us. Though I do like his chemistry with Claire Foy, part of me feels I'm just not agreeable to Matt Smith's acting in this role. Anyway, I do love Elizabeth's friendship with Porchey! 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-4581318
dubbel zout August 13, 2018 Share August 13, 2018 9 hours ago, scartact said: I was struggling to figure out if it's the writing or Matt Smith's performance, or a combination of both that just make Philip so awfully unsympathetic, regardless of what season 2 attempted to show us. For me it's mostly the writing. Philip and Elizabeth are about a decade into their marriage by this point, and he's still a petulant, whiny baby way too much of the time. Is this really all Peter Morgan can come up with for drama between the couple? I really hope the third season gets away from this. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-4582002
Pallas August 13, 2018 Share August 13, 2018 3 hours ago, dubbel zout said: Is this really all Peter Morgan can come up with for drama between the couple? I sense there's a type of British writer who's fairly certain that he'd be a better husband or son to the Queen than is Philip or Charles. (Far better, without strain. Not that he'd want the job, of course: he has his own destiny to trace across the stars.) And another type of Penny Junor British writer who nurses the knowledge that she might better have served the realm as, by now, its longest-serving Princess of Wales. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-4582831
scartact August 13, 2018 Share August 13, 2018 4 hours ago, dubbel zout said: For me it's mostly the writing. Philip and Elizabeth are about a decade into their marriage by this point, and he's still a petulant, whiny baby way too much of the time. Is this really all Peter Morgan can come up with for drama between the couple? I really hope the third season gets away from this. I do think Matt Smith has moments where I'm like, "Oh he's actually fine," but other moments where I'm like, "Euch, I hate how he played that." But I do fall on the side that the relationship stuff is very underwritten (as is most of the show), and I really feel like it didn't need to be that way. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-4582977
PeterPirate December 8, 2018 Share December 8, 2018 (edited) Excellent biography - Churchill: The Forgotten Years, 1945-65. A good discussion of the Sutherland portrait, including black-and-white film of the unveiling and Churchill's reaction, starts at the 1:06:40 mark. I think the real portrait is worse than the one in the episode. Edited December 8, 2018 by PeterPirate 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-4902460
RedbirdNelly September 5, 2019 Share September 5, 2019 On 11/5/2016 at 3:46 PM, SeanC said: At the unveiling ceremony after the portrait is shown, there's a brief shot of the Queen shaking her head. At what, exactly? She can't possibly have a view of the portrait itself on the shitty quality and far-away TV camera we were shown her watching from. I was confused by this too. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-5579053
Umbelina September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 On 9/5/2019 at 11:30 AM, RedbirdNelly said: I was confused by this too. I think she saw his reaction, body or facial language. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-5601052
PeterPirate September 16, 2019 Share September 16, 2019 I found an alternate opinion about Sutherland's motives from the site winstonchurchill.org, no less. Quote The trouble was not that he admired the PM too little, but rather that he worshipped him too blindly. Graham Sutherland was thinking of the Churchill who had stopped the enemy and saved England, and the manner in which, without a word of guidance, Mr. Churchill took up a pose on the dais convinced the painter that he was on the right tack. “I wanted,” he said, “to paint him with a kind of four-square look, to picture Churchill as a rock.” In some sense this makes the painting even more hideous than the way it is described in the episode. Sutherland tried to depict Churchill as a rock, but instead painted a decaying old man. It turned out to be an unintended commentary on the empire as well as the man. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-5604567
Lonesome Rhodes January 29, 2022 Share January 29, 2022 I thoroughly enjoyed each moment we saw Elizabeth interacting with Porchey. These are the only scenes in which The Crown was weightless upon her. Of course she created a direct line for him. Her moments with him are the only fully human moments she lived. That she was a true horsewoman only adds to her bliss. Darn it, she was great at something besides a stiff upper lip. This all had to be like a powerful narcotic for her. CF was brilliant. Churchill's entire reason for being in the political realm in these later years was to preserve to the extent humanly possible, the Empire. He stood athwart the inevitable evolution of history. He knew it was ultimately a lost cause. Anything that smelled of weakness was acrid to him. That Elizabeth demonstrated a backbone was a great relief to him. I was very moved to see they were having tea at the final audience. The PM was both sitting and drinking tea. The meaning of this was profound and a great compliment to Elizabeth. This was a first and against a cherished principle held by WC. The kiss to her forehead was everything. As for the painting...the absence of bright eyes damns it. The man was still quite facile. His body was betraying him, not his mind. Sutherland went too far, imo. And no, Margaret. Porchey and Townsend are not the same animal. Nice try. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-7259514
PeterPirate October 25, 2022 Share October 25, 2022 This is my favorite episode of the first season. The back-and-forth between Churchill and Sutherland is very engaging (from my male perspective). Stephen Dillane was spectacular here and also as Thomas Jefferson in the John Adams mini-series. Churchill may not have been the right man for the post-war era but he was indispensable during it. "We shall never surrender" is just as applicable to the world today in places like Ukraine and Taiwan as it was in 1940. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-7718614
Quickbeam January 26 Share January 26 Finally got nagged into watching this show so it’s the first time for me, 8 years late. Lithgow just killed it, every scene is a master class. I wasn’t sure about Claire Foy but she has that pragmatic duty bound air that works well. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/50345-s01e09-assassins/page/2/#findComment-8275563
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