S12.E05: The One You’ve Been Waiting For

[Jynnan tonnix]

9 hours ago, Dobian said:

Yay, my first ever first-run episode.  Actually it kind of sucks.  No more popping on Netflix whenever I want to see an episode I haven't seen before.  Now I have to wait a week for the next one, holiday break, four months to resolve the cliffhanger after the finale.  Ugh, why am I watching this show now?

 

I've only been watching slightly longer than you, Dobian, and I know how you feel! My son first introduced me to the show just about exactly a year ago, and my first real-time episodes were the final two or three of last season...which was kind of annoying - finally catching up only to go almost immediately to hiatus!

Anyway, I'm confident that there are many more good episodes still to come, so just going to shrug this one off.

[MysteryGuest]

You could have superimposed the Sam and Dean scenes into almost any other episode, and it would have worked fine.  They know what they're doing and who their characters are, so they can do it blindfolded.  It was the Hitler storyline that I found off-putting.  I thought the acting was bad, the German accents were bad, the humor wasn't funny, and the plot was pretty contrived.  It's not that they attempted to make Hitler funny that really bothers me, I guess, it's that they just did it so poorly.  I actually found myself turning away from the screen for long moments while those scenes played out, and I never do that.

[catrox14]

So, I have some questions.

Hitler's soul was in the fobwatch (Holy DOCTOR WHO, Batman!).  It's then put into Necromancer Dad via the fobwatch whilst he's getting a blood transfusion from Ellie. Dean shoots not!Hitler in the head and they burn his body.

How can Dean shooting the meatsuit in the head kill Hitler's soul? Souls don't just swap meatsuits willy nilly right? I mean in the episode when Abaddon is manufacturing demons they all found their way back to their own meatsuits. Once Hitler's meatsuit is dead shouldn't his soul have tried to find it's way back to Hitler's own meatsuit? Or did a reaper show up and grab it before it made it's way back to him? I don't understand.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, I have some questions.

Hitler's soul was in the fobwatch (Holy DOCTOR WHO, Batman!).  It's then put into Necromancer Dad via the fobwatch whilst he's getting a blood transfusion from Ellie. Dean shoots not!Hitler in the head and they burn his body.

How can Dean shooting the meatsuit in the head kill Hitler's soul? Souls don't just swap meatsuits willy nilly right? I mean in the episode when Abaddon is manufacturing demons they all found their way back to their own meatsuits. Once Hitler's meatsuit is dead shouldn't his soul have tried to find it's way back to Hitler's own meatsuit? Or did a reaper show up and grab it before it made it's way back to him? I don't understand.

Think of it this way, shooting anyone in the head doesn't kill their soul. It kills the body which seems to bind the soul to the earthly plane. I would assume, since Hilter's body is gone, his soul would be nabbed by a reaper and drug to Hell. 

The things this show has me type, I swear. 

[goldy]

Not a fan of this week episode. It was pretty boring for  the most part.

The good things were:

1. Sam getting Dean pie because he was worried about him was really sweet.
2. Dean's expresion when he realized he killed Hitler.

That's about it...

I did found it weird that the writers made Sam relate to both the junior thule and the girl (I forgot both of their names -- this is how boring this episode was to me). junior thule for not being able to please his father and the girl for being use as a vessel for evil. Espcially after last week episode when they made him relate to Magda and her psychic powers. I wonder where they're going here...

[Jediknight]

6 hours ago, mertensia said:

I'm really appalled that the BMoL have been ignoring the Thule (unless of course the heads have been ignoring it because they're evil). They must know a resurrected Hitler would want the UK and the UK has plenty of Neo-Nazis who would happily help.

I think that's what they're going to do.  The British Men of Letters aren't haven't exactly been shown as being on the up and up, so I'm guessing there will be a reveal they were infiltrated at the top and are allowing a lot to happen because of it.

[GirlyGeek]

I haven't decided how I feel about this episode- there was some WTF moments and some funny moments and I enjoyed some of Sam and Dean's bantering.  Loved the grenade launcher and agree with someone upthread: I bet they do argue over the use of the grenade launcher way more than we get to see :)

The fight scenes seemed both intense and over the top... no?  I mean, it really pulled me out of the episode to watch Sam and Dean punch, kick, get thrown through walls and furniture and then get right back up again.  It was like they were given super hero status all of a sudden.  No blood?  No bruises at all?  Not even a limp?  Just jump back up and keep kicking ass?  I know this is 'hollywood' and it happens a lot but it seemed excessive that there was literally ZERO consequences for 2 humans getting pummeled in the face.

I also don't get all the nail biting about being related to Hitler.  I mean, who cares?  I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if I got that news- it would effect my life in zero ways and would have zero implications on the type of person I was...  hmm

[Goldmoon]

This was bad.  Really, really bad.  Not funny in any of the Nazi scenes and then downright cringeworthy when Hitler popped up.  Something we haven't talked about is that Dean just killed a human with a head shot.  He is not possessed or part demon.  He just kills humans now and the show is ok with that.  I know, it's HITLER, but still. Also, how do we know that the soul didn't just pop back into the watch?

[pixelcat]

16 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

What the hell was that?  This was not a good episode.  So much for the big return of Aaron Bass.  Was he even on for 2 minutes?  I don't know who wrote this episode, but it was pretty bad.  I don't really even know what to say.

This pretty much sums up exactly how I felt after watching the episode. Why bother having Aaron in the episode at all?  Dean could've called him without even seeing the other side of the conversation. I was hoping Aaron meets up with them and golem goes on a rampage, and instead ended up with hypergirl and boywonder. 

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

  Something we haven't talked about is that Dean just killed a human with a head shot.  He is not possessed or part demon.  He just kills humans now and the show is ok with that.  I know, it's HITLER, but still. Also, how do we know that the soul didn't just pop back into the watch?

I thought about that (and how it came across as an execution rather than just a kill) but then I remembered how coldly Dean killed the infected mother way back in Croatoan and no one blinked; and the only reason he didn't kill the kid then, too, was because Sam convinced him to wait.  The difference there, I think, was that he *knew* the mother and Hitler were evil (including Hitler's meatsuit--who was an undead Nazi necromancer!) but the Croatoan kid hadn't been proven dangerous yet; which was the big fuss over him killing the Styne kid...no proof.  (He killed Amy because he knew she had already killed 4 people, and let her kid go because he hadn't killed anyone yet.)  OTOH,both Sam and Dean have been pretty cavalier about killing demon meatsuits for years--not just in the heat of battle but just to get 'em out of the picture.  

But yeah, I would have been happier with a kill more like the original Thule badguy (standing over them and gloating about how he was going to live forever...then blam!)  That's part of my problem with this ep...those notes that just rang wrong, even though they were doing/saying the right things.  

About the watch--I'm assuming that when they burned the body that melted the watch (like Bobby's flask).  (Another of my annoyances with this ep was that they assumed (I guess) that the viewers knew they'd burned the bodies (because it had been mentioned in the "previouslys") and so just threw in a casual line from the girl the next day.   I didn't have enough trust in the writer, so until that line, as they were ambling casually down the street talking about what they were going to do next, I kept yelling: "did you burn the bodies?" at the screen. ) 

[companionenvy]

Quote

Something we haven't talked about is that Dean just killed a human with a head shot.  He is not possessed or part demon.  He just kills humans now and the show is ok with that.  I know, it's HITLER, but still. 

Well, the human vessel was a quasi-immortal, and the soul had been preserved for over 70 years in a pocketwatch. So I'd say definitely supernatural enough to qualify for the same treatment any other baddies get. Certainly, I don't think he was more human than a witch. 

Also, I'm not sure that the show's/the Winchesters primary ethical imperative is human v. non-human anymore, if it ever was. They kill people that can't be dealt with through normal channels; it isn't like you can send a vampire or ghost to prison. Technically human or not, supernaturally enhanced humans doing evil also can't be dealt with by the police or FBI, so the same rules apply. When Dean decides to summarily execute someone who could otherwise have been arrested and tried via normal channels, I'll start to worry. 

[catrox14]

On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Goldmoon said:

He is not possessed or part demon.  He just kills humans now and the show is ok with that.  I know, it's HITLER, but still.

I have no problem with Dean killing Hitler.  There is no question that Hitler was a mass murderer guilty of murdering millions of human beings and torturing millions more. His meatsuit volunteered to become that same resurrected mass murderer. He wasn't possessed against his will or even manipulated into it. He wanted it and was happy to do it.  I can make an argument that this resurrected!Hitler is a supernatural monster created out of a spell and soul transference. 

Dean was *not Hitler's  judge and jury, he was Hitler's final executioner.

Edited November 12, 2016 by catrox14
*not his Hitler, just Hitler, because Hitler wasn't Dean's unless you consider Dean capping Hitler's ass as being Dean's..what am I even saying now...LOL

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Something we haven't talked about is that Dean just killed a human with a head shot. 

I would consider a necromancer zombie person to be as human as the Stynes. They made themselves into supernatural monsters. If a creature who is born a creature can be killed for their crimes by hunters, it would be the height of hypocrisy not to kill a creature who chose to be one. For me that is even worse. And all the people they kill when they kill demons, most of them are probably random bystanders and yet they get no mercy.

I know most shows do the "hero doesn`t kill humans" in these type of shows but I always have a big problem with it when the hero will kill lots of "things" but people 10 times as evil get to live and wreak havoc another day because you just know they won`t be dealt with by the legal system. That`s not moral or heroic to me.

Quote

The fight scenes seemed both intense and over the top... no?  I mean, it really pulled me out of the episode to watch Sam and Dean punch, kick, get thrown through walls and furniture and then get right back up again.  It was like they were given super hero status all of a sudden.  No blood?  No bruises at all?  Not even a limp?  Just jump back up and keep kicking ass?

I don`t think it was particularly out there in terms of fighting ability and endurance. The show just does so little true hand-to-hand-fighting, it may have stood out. Gotta say I welcomed it. I wasn`t too keen on some of the directorial choices there, it could have looked a bit more fluid and polished but in spirit, I would welcome more scenes like that.

The Winchesters aren`t martial arts specialists but they must have learned some fighting techniques and you rarely get to see it. It often looks like "brawl, brawl, punch, punch, no idea, hope for the best". Here you could see them performing some blocks and moves that looked like they actually had training in their lives. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I have no problem with Dean killing Hitler.  There is no question that Hitler was a mass murderer guilty of murdering millions of human beings and torturing millions more. His meatsuit volunteered to become that same resurrected mass murderer. He wasn't possessed against his will or even manipulated into it. He wanted it and was happy to do it.  I can make an argument that this resurrected!Hitler is a supernatural monster created out of a spell and soul transference. 

Dean was not his Hitler's  judge and jury, he was Hitler's final executioner.

I have no problem with Dean (or anyone) killing Hitler or his meatsuit.  Neither was truly human.  You can consider Hitler an angry spirit (attached to the pocketwatch like Bobby was to his flask), a revenant, or whatever; and the Thule had already outlived his expiration date by several decades, so he'd done something shady (not to mention immolating all those innocent bystanders...)  No shades of gray in any of that.  

For me, it was just the look on Dean's face *during* the killing (not the glee afterwards) that made it uncomfortable.  It was a little too close to Demon!Dean's coldness.  Again, I would have just *preferred* a little humanDean in there, or that they had him shoot in self-defense or even while he was monologing.  IMO, that would make more sense for his glee afterwards...that he was still in battle mode and wasn't really thinking about the reasons;  and so it took a second or two to sink in, at which point he was proud.  But they made it so deliberate and intense that he knew exactly what he was doing, so the delay in his delight was...a little off.  Don't know if that was writing or directing.

But there's absolutely no question in my mind that it had to be done.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

For me, it was just the look on Dean's face *during* the killing (not the glee afterwards) that made it uncomfortable.  It was a little too close to Demon!Dean's coldness

I didn't see any demon!Dean or MoC!Dean coldness there, I saw determined and pissed off Dean. 

Dean is a soldier at heart.  Months ago Dean was aboard a submarine in WWII that was being bombarded by the Thule and he knew the crew was going to die and he could not stop it.  IMO, Dean was thinking of those people along with the millions that Hitler already killed and was like, "Yup, you're dead".   I could have lived without the "Heil, this". 

The problem with this episode was the big tonal shifts.  Instead of Sam being all "Dude, you just killed Hitler" like a little kid, I would have preferred he and Dean  exchanged agog looks, not say anything, Dean has a smile to himself and then have Dean want some pie at the end as his reward for killing Hitler.  I just think they were struggling to find the right balance of dramedy and it just didn't work here.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

For me, it was just the look on Dean's face *during* the killing (not the glee afterwards) that made it uncomfortable.  It was a little too close to Demon!Dean's coldness.  

I gotta say I really liked how it was done. Granted, it wasn`t that physically hard of a defeat but I found the moment badass. Just pointing the gun and bam. I know Dean struggles with feeling like he is just a killer deep down but for me he is a warrior and that`s the difference.  

[midge]

Well, I enjoyed the previouslies.  

What a nothing episode.  

I get it.  Dean killed Hitler.  His hunter life has meaning again.   Great.  Boring and sophomoric but whatever.

Edited November 11, 2016 by midge

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Goldmoon said:

He just kills humans now and the show is ok with that

He killed Thinman, Randy and the Rapists, and the Stynes all under the influence of the Mark of Cain. He killed Lester when he was a demon.  Those were all altered state!Dean killing humans, yet even under his altered state, the narrative had other characters condemn his actions, as  stated by Cas and Sam in Hunger Games, and in the Prisoner, Cas condemned Dean for "killing that kid" (Teen!Styne) so  I don't think the show is okay with it. They just  aren't punishing him for it, much like they didn't punish Soulless Sam.

Edited November 11, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, midge said:

Well, I enjoyed the previouslies.

Well, you did better than me! ;)

[sarthaz]

That was weird. And cartoonish. And kinda terrible.

[SueB]

Dean killed a Nazi Necromancer who had come back from the dead (per his son) and was hosting the soul of Hitler. 

I'm called the dude at least a witch who had not only killed but intended to kill again.  

[SueB]

Well this was SO MUCH BETTER upon re-watch.  But it's complicated.  So I'm going full "charts & graphs & 92 talking points mode".  I won't be offended if you skip.  Read the TL; DR Bottom line for the gist.

First: They made a MAJOR miscalculation, this episode is timed with an election they presumed Trump would lose.  After rewatching, it's clear to me they INTENDED to make fun of Trump.  They intended to poke at both elements of older out-of-touch people AND elements of millennials.  But I think they presumed Hilary would win, Trump would lose, and we'd all have a big laugh.  Not so much.  After being brushed aside by nearly 60 million Americans, what so many thought was common sense (that racism and bigotry was unacceptable) got smashed into our faces with a 'not so much.'  There are many "WTF happened?" responses to the election for me, but the one that makes the most sense is that it's not that people thought racism was okay, it's that they didn't think the character of Trump was more important that his potential ability to improve the economy.  Damn, it's just not that far off from Germany in the 1930's is it?  In fact the major bad guy MADE THAT SPEECH in the car when he was talking about "now" being the time for Hitler's resurrection.  It's so spot on (as to what happened) as to be actually nauseating.  So, because Trump won, this episode is NEVER (IMO) going to sit well with many one-time viewers.  Some people will get a laugh and move on.  Some will just be too grossed out to process. And some may see the flaws and not get past those (and there were flaws). 

As a "savor every moment" person, I went into this rewatch with one question in mind "WHAT was the purpose of the young Thule guy?"  When I saw that he represented "Millenials", just like Ellie represented "Millennials", I "got it".  This episode was about GENERATIONS.  That theme is there throughout.

The Older Generation:
- The "Old Guard" Thule (horrible)
- The Golum (good)
- Mary Winchester (good)
- The Nazi-loving rich lady (bad)
- The collaborator for money antiques guy (bad)
- Hitler (literally worse than Trump… pretty sure)

Millennial’s:
- Ellie
- Christoph
- Aaron

Stuck in between
- Sam (technically a Millennial)
- Dean (technically a Gen X)
I say stuck in between because they are closer to the Millennial age bracket, they were raised by a VERY OLD GUARD (Good) John Winchester and have seen enough shit to no longer be really too closely tied to ANY age bracket.  This is why they are us, the audience, an amalgam of multiple age groups. 

Once I saw that angle, then a lot of the scenes made more sense.  Especially with the over-arching seasonal theme of old and new hunters. Examples:
- Sam and Dean at the antique shop.  Sam gets to hacking and finds the watch backstory.  Dean snoops about the old fashion way.  They both come to “Nazi nut-jobs” at the same time.  Bonus layer: shout out to Dean/Mary similarities.
-  Ellie and Christoph’s Millennial representation: BOTH were pretty savvy but a little self-absorbed.  Both proved competent. Ellie got herself out of trouble three times. She ran twice plus shot the Nazi. Christoph fought off his own execution. Both were pretty quick on the uptake. Ellie called her Mom and immediately knew the adoption story was right. Christoph went straight to the Winchesters for help after escaping.
- Describing the watch as a Horcrux.  Most Millennials are going to get that reference right away.
- The old guys vision of ‘reliving the glory days’ was clearly not going to work as Hitler pretty much was insane and just as likely to kill people as to lead.  He was not the leader they hoped for. They were so solemn with bringing out the watch on a silver tray with a Nazi flag and Hitler pops up and goes into full-on nut mode.
- But the old guys DID get shit done.  They were ruthless and committed to their ideology over their own interests.  They actually resurrected Hitler for pity’s sake.  STUPID, but they managed it.
- Aaron as Millennial hunter.  Halfway thru the Thule list but taking time to club it up a bit in Germany.  And my headcannon of Golum in the disco is SACRED.  He’s just sitting there (tolerating a neon neck ring) like the lump of clay he is, protecting his guy.

And for me, the “payoff” to the generational theme was that while the Millennials survived to continue on, they learned some sobering lessons during the way.  Ellie has faced Hitler, she can make it through Med School.  Aaron already learned to fight for a bigger cause.  Christoph figured out that just following in his father’s footsteps was stupid. 

Once I could see what I thought they were going for, then the episode was much more coherent for me.  Bits I picked up on a second time:
- Aaron and Golum were having an impact – the Nazi Dad was complaining about that Judah guy and his golum.
- I’m having a hardtime feeling bad about Tinder hookup getting burned up (oh show, that joke was really pretty low-brown… but I’ll take it).
- Ellie had soot on her and mentioned burning the corpses. (IA with those who say the watch is gone, no more Hitler)
- Dean really did seem pretty sober about killing the guy, until Sam reminded him that he just made History (even if no one knows it).
- The fact that Sam knows Dean did it is all Dean needs to be happy about it. 
- I was reminded of Charlie when Dean admitted that sublimating is what he does (as in “that’s kind of your move”). 
- I think them just sending Ellie on her merry way is a BIG mistake.  First, the Thule in Germany probably know who she is and might come after her.  Second, I suspect that even though Sam and Dean don’t know it, the BMOL might kill her just because she has Hitler’s blood.  And then they’ll put that on their “to do” list (kill Hitler’s relatives) along with hunting down Christoph (Necromancer in training) and any other Thule out there. 

Having said all this, the fact is I didn’t see the big “theme” that made this episode make more sense for me until second watching.  That’s not good.  The beats were there, but it was just a wee bit too subtle. I admit to having post-election brain fuzz but having the Nazi with the bad accent essentially lay out the theme was a bad move.  I was too distracted by the bad accent to pay attention to his ramblings the first time.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: The episode is MUCH better when seen as a commentary on the difference between Millennials and older generations.  The show presumed Hilary would win and did not have an episode that would play well with a nation living with President-Elect Trump.  Stronger writing, less cheesy accent would have helped a great deal but overall, there were some good moments and interesting commentary in this episode.  I think the writer will work out just fine with a less “out there” episode. 

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: The episode is MUCH better when seen as a commentary on the difference between Millennials and older generations.  The show presumed Hilary would win and did not have an episode that would play well with a nation living with President-Elect Trump.  Stronger writing, less cheesy accent would have helped a great deal but overall, there were some good moments and interesting commentary in this episode.  I think the writer will work out just fine with a less “out there” episode. 

If the episode was being prepped as far back as June before Trump really started making headway and he was being treated as a joke I could see it. I certainly thought Teen!Thule was an Eric Trump surrogate but I dismissed it because I really didn't think the show would be THAT blatantly political when they usually aren't. 

Hmmm...interesting food for thought.   

[FlickChick]

I thought this episode was horrible on so many levels that it's hard to conceive. I don't care if that writer was a "first-timer" because there are fanfic writers out there that are heads and shoulders above her talent. I hated the slapstick attempt of "funny Hitler" and IF it was intended as a political statement, I hope who ever ordered this episode has learned a valuable lesson - never say never. I'm surprised that no one thought that the rocket launcher idea was ridiculous seeing as how the person in peril was in there with the Nazis. If this is an example of what we have in store with new writers, Chuck help us. :(

[Demented Daisy]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So, I have some questions.

Hitler's soul was in the fobwatch (Holy DOCTOR WHO, Batman!).  It's then put into Necromancer Dad via the fobwatch whilst he's getting a blood transfusion from Ellie. Dean shoots not!Hitler in the head and they burn his body.

How can Dean shooting the meatsuit in the head kill Hitler's soul? Souls don't just swap meatsuits willy nilly right? I mean in the episode when Abaddon is manufacturing demons they all found their way back to their own meatsuits. Once Hitler's meatsuit is dead shouldn't his soul have tried to find it's way back to Hitler's own meatsuit? Or did a reaper show up and grab it before it made it's way back to him? I don't understand.

Before you can destroy the Horcrux, you have to make the vessel its in uninhabitable.  So, destroy the vessel, the soul (or the piece of soul, in Voldemort's case) is essentially trapped in the destroyed vessel.  Unless the (piece of) soul has another vessel to inhabit, it's destroyed with the vessel.

As long as that piece didn't attach to one of the other living souls in the room at the time....

Don't blame me, the show said I was right about the Horcruxes!

[Mick Lady]

I don't want to quote SueB's whole post, to save space, but Sue you're so right! Second watch was much better, and you articulated it much better than I could have!

[catrox14]

Holy crap.  I just realized Dean killed Hitler wearing the Red Murder Shirt. It's like every awful thing Dean endured, all the killing in that Red Murder shirt, stalking Sam as a demon an his eyes flashing black in that shirt, his physical, mental and emotional suffering when he wore that shirt has been redeemed by executing Hitler whilst wearing that shirt.

 I'm actually really emotional about this.  WTF??!

Edited November 12, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• Like most, I was disappointed that we only saw Aaron for a few minutes - and his Golem not at all.  (I do like @SueB's visual that he was sitting solemnly in the club...heh heh)  
• I confess, I got a little bored in the middle.  
• I thought the fight scene was good.  Both were dazed at one time or another from the knocks they took, so not too unbelievable.  
• I did like the end.  But was confused/confounded by the fact that they just let Christoph go.  I mean, seemed like he was trying to change and do right.  Maybe?  I don't think it would have hurt to try to help him out a little more.  A line like, "if you really want to help and right some of the wrongs your father did, give this guy (Aaron) a call." would have been nice.  And if he (Christoph) didn't turn his life around, then he'd also be on Aaron's radar to take out.  

23 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

 It had occurred to me that maybe they had timed this as a post-election episode anticipating a different result?

I really can't see how it would have been funnier/better if Hilary had won.  I'm tired, and rather disgusted, by election commentary from BOTH sides - as they both seem pretty intolerant of the other.  But of course, neither side sees that.  Which is just sad, and not at all conducive toward unity and healing that the country as a whole needs.  (Don't worry.  Because, honestly, that's all I'm going to say about it.)

[Meredith Quill]

I normally don't feel the need to post but I have to say that I did not enjoy this episode. I was bored and the premise felt empty and stupid (I too, instantly thought 'Doctor Who' with the whole fobwatch thing, not to mention 'Let's Kill Hitler').

Let's hope this is the last dull episode for a while, if not for the rest of the season.

Also, no Crowley, no Cas, and no Lucy scenes... bleh.

[mertensia]

I forgot to mention that that pocket watch burrowing into the guy was supremely creepy.

They let Christoph go because he went to them for help instead of heading for the hills and his info was as accurate as he was able to give.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I agree with SueB that the episode does improve somewhat upon re-watch.  My niece and I did our regular thing and re-watched without commercials last night.  Losing the endless commercial breaks can improve just about anything, so that's a big part for me.

I found that I enjoyed the Sam and Dean moments more.  The writer, whoever they are, did hit those notes pretty well, so he must have done some homework, which is good.  The episode was actually ok right up until we get to to Hitler.  That's when they lost me.  It was just too bizarre...not funny, just strange.  I don't think that's the effect they were going for, but whatever it was, it didn't work.

I thought Sam telling the girl about being a vessel for Lucifer was a bit odd.  I know they usually will tell the victims that the supernatural does exist when they're caught up in some drama, but that seemed like over-sharing and out of character.  

I had zero sympathy for the young Thule, as he would have shot the girl in the back at the beginning of the episode, if his father hadn't stopped him.  He was kind of an asshole, and would have been a murderer without much hesitation.

I get that Hitler is a monster, and the Necromancer meat suit is also a monster, so I had no issue with Dean killing him, but it seemed weird that he knocked him unconscious first, and then shot him in the head.  They neutralized the threat of him (at least in the moment), so the kill shot seemed overly violent to me.  I understand that he had to die, but I would have preferred if they'd shown him as still menacing before Dean shot him.  The end result is the same, but it would have played better, I think.

So, on re-watch, not quite as horrid as I initially thought, but still not an episode that I will be watching again.  

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But was confused/confounded by the fact that they just let Christoph go.  I mean, seemed like he was trying to change and do right.  Maybe?  I don't think it would have hurt to try to help him out a little more.  A line like, "if you really want to help and right some of the wrongs your father did, give this guy (Aaron) a call." would have been nice.  And if he (Christoph) didn't turn his life around, then he'd also be on Aaron's radar to take out.

I thought it was monumentally stupid they let him go. He wasn't innocent and would've switched teams again if it suited him. He didn't give a shit about anything, just kept trying to stay on the winning side and save his own ass. I actually wonder if he's going to come back and bite them in the ass with the British MoL running around tidying up the Winchester's loose ends this year?

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I really can't see how it would have been funnier/better if Hilary had won.  

I'm pretty sure I would've felt the same way if Hillary had won. The episode was just nothing to me and has nothing to do with my feelings about the election. If they were going for political satire--which I agree, they probably were--it wasn't well thought out. For one, they should known better than to try and call the election five months early and the episode should've been conceived of to play no matter what the election results were.

Personally, I see it as a fail on so many levels--just the amount of stupid going on had me not paying attention a lot--I can't just chalk it up to the election not going their way. 

10 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Let's hope this is the last dull episode for a while, if not for the rest of the season.

Hear! Hear!

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I thought Sam telling the girl about being a vessel for Lucifer was a bit odd.  I know they usually will tell the victims that the supernatural does exist when they're caught up in some drama, but that seemed like over-sharing and out of character.  

I wonder if she'll be back at some point? Or, if she's one of the "messes" Mr. Ketch will try to clean up?

Edited November 12, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[ParadoxLost]

How does an episode like this happen?

This is how {spec}.  Its been a long night in the writers room.  It smells of stale pizza and sweat.  The air conditioning is broken.  Someone snuck beer in and maybe something else.  They are running up on a deadline and are bankrupt of ideas.  Then someone throws it out there..."Wouldn't it be cool if Dean killed Hitler."  And an episode is created about that one idea.

Now why no one else in production didn't stop this from happening, I don't know.

But I do think that someone recognized how terrible this was and intentionally amped up the awfulness, around the time Hitler entered his vessel, to make it memorable enough that they can make a joke about it in some future meta episode where they jokingly apologize for it.

I mean even the episode title just begs for every review to start with The One You’ve Been Waiting For...No I haven't.  I actually thought this would be some batshit meta episode when I read the episode summary.

It begs the question.  Is this the worse episode in the history of Supernatural?  If there Is one that sucks more, I think I've blocked it out.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 Is this the worse episode in the history of Supernatural?

I could probably name you 25 episodes of the top of my head that I found far worse. Last week`s ep, the Season 5 Finale, nearly all of Season 7, the one with the dogfucking and slavery imagery.

Quote

Its been a long night in the writers room. 

They don`t have one anymore as far as I know. Not for years now.

[SueB]

48 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

It begs the question.  Is this the worse episode in the history of Supernatural?  If there Is one that sucks more, I think I've blocked it out.

Man's Best Friend with Benefits

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Man's Best Friend with Benefits

Followed closely by Bloodlines, which I'm not even sure qualifies was a Supernatural episode.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If they were going for political satire--which I agree, they probably were--it wasn't well thought out. For one, they should known better than to try and call the election five months early and the episode should've been conceived of to play no matter what the election results were.

In fairness to them, they weren`t alone in that regard. I`m slowly catching up on my shows now and if I have to watch even one more this week that has a political theme and/or refers to an election and clearly was supposed to play out after a different real life election outcome, I will scream. And scheduling was an easy guess. I mean everyone knew when Election Day was gonna be. 

[DittyDotDot]

On 11/12/2016 at 10:13 AM, Aeryn13 said:

In fairness to them, they weren`t alone in that regard. I`m slowly catching up on my shows now and if I have to watch even one more this week that has a political theme and/or refers to an election and clearly was supposed to play out after a different real life election outcome, I will scream. And scheduling was an easy guess. I mean everyone knew when Election Day was gonna be. 

Are you saying, because their friends decided to jump off a bridge, it's okay they jumped too?

My actual point was more that, if you're going to jump off a bridge with your friends, you should, at the very least, do it with style and class. Belly flopping, while maybe humorous to onlookers, is really just painful. ;)

Edited November 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Quote

My actual point was more that, if you're going to jump off a bridge with your friends, you should, at the very least, do it with style and class. 

Thing is, I haven`t associated "style and class" with this show for years. Maybe ever. Goofy charme in the beginning that made the lack of style and class not matter so much is probably more like it for me. So I actually never expected it to come out here. If anything, I was plesantly surprised that it wasn`t so much worse.

As for the "everybody doing it part", yeah, they probably shouldn`t have banked so hard on a particular outcome, I agree, but while I`m hard on the show about a lot of things, I can`t really blame them too much for joining in. If even some cooler kids jumped off the bridge, I`m not gonna single out the weird nerd with braces for it. That dude has it hard enough.  ;)  

[Commando Cody]

As I watching this episode with a kid who was forced into a crime family, I wondered if the Thule kid would live to make up for Dean killing the Styne kid. I wasn't sure if the producers/writers wanted to go through that again. 

I didn't think this was a very good episode. Although, the looks on the faces of the henchmen when Hilter came back was priceless. They expressed concern that maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. 

When I read the description, before watching the episode, that Hitler's soul was in a pocket watch, it made me think of Doctor Who. Both the Doctor and the Master have used fob watches to hide their identities. 

I have read that Hitler was nuts, but I thought coming back and becoming a hyperactive idiot seemed a little off.  There was an episode of Star Trek where Moriarity was left in the holodeck for years with nothing to do. He went kind of mad. It was believable that he was more sadistic after being left alone for so long. I got the impression that Hitler was aware of the passing of time while he was in the watch. He was just happy to be out and it was business as usual with him. 

[Demented Daisy]

As RuPaul once said, "A lot could be forgiven if you were funny.  But you were not funny."

[Boopsahoy]

Quote

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: The episode is MUCH better when seen as a commentary on the difference between Millennials and older generations.  The show presumed Hilary would win and did not have an episode that would play well with a nation living with President-Elect Trump.  Stronger writing, less cheesy accent would have helped a great deal but overall, there were some good moments and interesting commentary in this episode.  I think the writer will work out just fine with a less “out there” episode

I liked it much better on rewatch. I also felt it was a political statement, even the first time I watched.

[AwesomO4000]

On 11/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, ParadoxLost said:

It begs the question.  Is this the worse episode in the history of Supernatural?  If there Is one that sucks more, I think I've blocked it out.

For me, so many - and as always, my opinion only here... The major downer that was Roadkill, the "ewww witches" that was Malleus Malficarum, Sex and Violence (sorry @catrox14), Heartache, Southern Comfort, Citizen Fang (haaate!), the torture porn that was Torn and Frayed (haaaate!), Man's Best Friend With Benefits (season 8 was especially bad, in my opinion), Bloodlines (bad CW pretty teens and early twenty somethings who inexplicably run things theater), and The Purge were all much worse for me. Also Paint it Black was bad 16th century soap opera romance theater which for me is worse than goofy Hitler.

That was probably supposed to be a rhetorical question, though, but I couldn't help myself.

Also I can't dislike this episode, because my best friend - who I helped to binge-watch the series in the past 6 months or so by loaning her the DVDs and who finally caught up in real time this season - told me that she watched the episode Thursday, and she laughed at the rocket launcher scene. She told me it was the first time she'd smiled or laughed since Tuesday night... so that alone would be enough for me to like this episode. I also happened to like the brother moments and that Dean finally got something to feel good about and confirm for him that what he does does indeed help. Now go eat some pie Dean, and let your brother feel happy that you're feeling better. He's been worried about you.

Oh, and catrox, don't worry about the pie gag going away. Dean didn't eat the pie Sam brought him as far as Sam knows, so now Sam actually has an excuse to not bring Dean pie again. The excuses for Sam were getting thin, and now that they are on good terms (and Sam's in his right mind) even more so, but now, Sam again has a legitimate excuse. I look forward to an exchange like: Dean (looking in the take out bag): Wait, what's this? (holds up non-pie dessert item). Where's the pie?   Sam (shrugging): Last time I brought pie, you didn't want it. Figured maybe you wanted cake / a cookie / a brownie instead.

Edited November 14, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[enaiowen]

I personally prefer the show stay far far away from politics.  The fact that the show mostly manages to deal with societal issues while avoiding making  overt political statements/pressing a political agenda is one of the things that has kept me watching all these years and the fact that they strayed from that in 7 with a Season long, clearly politically motivated arc makes it one of my least favorite seasons. It doesn't matter to me whose side is being pushed/made fun of, I don't like it and it is one of the few things that would make me stop watching.

If I want Political Commentary, I will read a Political Blog. 

 

No quote.  Can't get rid of the quote box.

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Edited November 14, 2016 by enaiowen
Random quote box that won't go away

[7kstar]

On 11/13/2016 at 8:15 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

told me that she watched the episode Thursday, and she laughed at the rocket launcher scene. She told me it was the first time she'd smiled or laughed since Tuesday night... so that alone would be enough for me to like this episode. I also happened to like the brother moments and that Dean finally got something to feel good about and confirm for him that what he does does indeed help. Now go eat some pie Dean, and let your brother feel happy that you're feeling better. He's been worried about you.

I liked these moments you mentioned and certainly wouldn't put it on my worst ever...but the stupid part of Hitler just was a total lame idea.  It had potential but I'll blame the writing on this one.  At least the boys weren't rescued and Dean got the save but I wasn't in love with his I killed Hitler bit.  I deleted it so I won't be watching it twice.

[Commando Cody]

I'm sure I'll watch it again when it repeats. 

[Diane]

I enjoyed the episode the night it aired, but this is the only one this season I haven't re-watched yet.  I don't know, maybe tonight.

[Myrelle]

I re-watched it twice. I can never get enough of Dean when he is in full-on hunter mode, as he was in this one. Everything else just kind of pales for me when they give us this Dean, and there is little that can take away from an episode for me when they give us this flavor of Dean; even his language said Hunter Extraordinaire and it has been too long since we've seen that Dean for almost an entire episode, the overly-long bit with him fumbling with the model ship being the only part that felt out of place in the ep. to me. Loved seeing what one in the "win" column did for him. CockyDean FTW!! This writer channeled John Shiban a bit for me with her characterization of Dean in this one. Loved that, too.

It appears to me that this season they are trying to make hunting into a more noble profession again-still hard on any human who chooses to take it on(with a certain unique personality type being a requisite for one to truly excel at it in the way that Dean does). And I'm all for that, especially if it means that we'll get more of the incarnation of Dean that we were given in this episode.

I think that this is the type of episode that will be appreciated more and better after some time has passed, not unlike some others that this show has given us, with Roadkill as an example that I just recently saw this one being compared to somewhere else, as far as original audience reception was concerned. I liked that one right off the bat also, and still re-watch it every now and again to this day.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Myrelle

[Lemuria]

Quote

 I don't think they were working with another group.

I believe they were, the same group Aaron's grandfather was working with, the Judah Initiative.  I think it was even mentioned it in the conversation with Aaron.  From the conversation, I got the impression that the JI was hunting down Thule members, with great success.

[Myrelle]

Quote

I didn't see any demon!Dean or MoC!Dean coldness there, I saw determined and pissed off Dean. 

I must have missed this discussion pertaining to the look on Dean's face when he pulled the trigger. I just have to say that I saw all of these Deans at that moment and it thrilled me(the Ackting, that is). He was in some kind of a zone at the time that he pulled the trigger, IMO too, which he came out of when Sam spoke; and we've seen him go there before when he was fully human-the vamp kill in Bloodlust and when he bashed in the head of GhoulAdam come to mind first. I love seeing this aspect of Dean. It seems so real. And I love it even more when Jensen is allowed by the writing/writers to show it to us. More please...