S01.E07: The Best Washing Machine in the World

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, topanga said:

Two people have said it--you're probably right. I'll have to re-watch that scene. I thought for sure that Randall was the one who said something mean. It sure felt like it. Maybe it was as simple as Randall asking, "Is that the new Manny?" Knowing darn well that would upset Kevin. 

Don't hold me to this because I have only watched the episode once so far, but I think Randall said that's a star and pointed to The Manny billboard when Kevin said he'd be the star in the family if it weren't for Randall.

So is Beth sick or have some kind of disability the required her to use weed or is she just breaking the law?

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

So is Beth sick or have some kind of disability the required her to use weed or is she just breaking the law?

She said it was from when her father was dying of lung cancer.

[DrSpaceman73]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Don't hold me to this because I have only watched the episode once so far, but I think Randall said that's a star and pointed to The Manny billboard when Kevin said he'd be the star in the family if it weren't for Randall.

So is Beth sick or have some kind of disability the required her to use weed or is she just breaking the law?

Most likely just breaking the law.  Or she has some "illness" that got her a medical card for MJ, not sure what the rules are in their state. 

 

I doubt she has a serious debilitating illness that requires weed

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don't feel for Kevin at all.  He comes off to me as a privileged douchebag.

It honestly seems like Kevin's father treated him quite well.  It's really hard for some of us to sympathize because we all know so many people in so many worse situations than having 2 married parents with 1 who often shows that he loves you.  Blaming Randall for his issues at 36 just makes him look like a mental case.   He never called his brother his "brother" out loud until he was 36.  He needs help.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

She said it was from when her father was dying of lung cancer.

She said her father died from lung cancer.  But I think she simply said she had a stash, not why she had it.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It honestly seems like his father treated him quite well.  It's really hard because we all know so many people in so many worse situations than having 2 married parents with 1 who often shows that he loves you.  Blaming Randall for his issues at 36 just makes him look like a mental case.  Sorry but he needs help.

Observing a parent repeatedly demonstrate incredible levels of love and caring for a sibling while not demonstrating the same for the sibling observing and craving that love can have a profound impact on someone's psyche.  Particularly when your pain is happening right under the parent's nose and they never notice.  Yeah, I would guess anybody would need help to cope and sustain a healthy emotional life.

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I know exactly what you mean.  I could go on for hours, but I love this statement.  When parents treat some (innocent, well-meaning) kids badly and other kids well (unfortunately it happens, I've seen it) it is really not the other kids' fault, unless they buy into their own false hype that they're somehow more special than their siblings and take that shit into adulthood.

And I think this is what Kevin will be learning this season, in where to place his anger, resentment, and jealousy. It's obviously not Randall's fault that Kevin got ignored and seemed to not have the attention that he should have gotten. He misplaced his anger onto Randall instead of onto the one person that should be to blame: Rebecca. Kate seemed to place her anger on Rebecca for how her mother handled her weight issues. There's still more to be explored with Rebecca/Kate so there's probably more to their estrangement. However, it seems like Randall/Kevin never dealt with their issues in 36 years. They seemed to ignore the problems instead of talking it out with each other. I doubt that Kevin's issue is just that he wasn't the star of the family, despite what he told Randall. The issue is that his mother consistently chose Randall over Kevin. He was consistently left out with the seven episodes of flashbacks we've seen. It's not merely an issue of Kevin wanting all the attention; he just wanted some sort of attention. He wanted to be chosen over his siblings for once. So far, we haven't seen Rebecca or even Jack put Kevin first. 

I just think it's just not as simple as calling Kevin a spoiled brat. He has real reason to have resentment and rage over his childhood. His only issue is where he's directing the anger toward. It should be toward Rebecca, not Randall. Randall has his own childhood issues to get over, and none of those are Kevin's fault either. I've seen instances of family resentment growing over many years and affecting other family members. It happens; it may be immature, but it's not always right or wrong, or black or white. I have an aunt who stopped talking to our entire family for eight-nine years after my grandfather's death, but I only recently found out why. Issues that aren't dealt with will always be carried with people until they are deal with. Sometimes, issues are never dealt with and that's how estrangements can happen. 

I think both boys have their issues that stem directly from how they were raised. Rebecca seemed to ignore Kevin for his entire life, choosing Randall over him (we'll see if that was always the case). Kevin, as a result, saw this and resented Randall for getting all the attention. Randall, as a result, lost the sibling relationship he could have had with Kevin and started resenting Kevin for not loving him like a brother. That led into their relationship in the present day because they never dealt with their issues, nor did Rebecca seemingly push to help mend that relationship. Rebecca's a good mom in theory. She takes care of her children and some of their basic needs. But Rebecca has been shown to choose Randall every time over Kevin thus far in seven episodes. 

It's why the ending to this episode is so important. Randall didn't want Kevin in the basement because he recognized what that signified to both of them in their teenage years, possibly when their relationship started imploding. And Kevin inviting Randall to hang with him had him recognize that maybe they could fix their broken relationship now. It's not too late. Kevin made that first step. 

I guess it's why I see why Kevin can be self-absorbed. Since his family didn't give him the love and attention that he deserved or needed, he began giving it to himself. It's why he cares too much about what other people think of him, and it makes sense why that makes him look bad. But in its entirety, it makes sense as to why he acts the way that he does, and possibly why he became an actor. 

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

She said her father died from lung cancer.  But I think she simply said she had a stash, not why she had it.

Don't remember the wording, but dad with lung cancer + she baked the weed into brownies = more than likely she had medical marijuana from when he was dying.  If they live in New Jersey as posters have speculated, it is legal there.  Maybe it's not on the up and up now, because the Rx was for her father, but she doesn't care about that.  Randall didn't get his undies in a bundle, either.

6 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

He never called his brother his "brother" out loud until he was 36.  He needs help.

Yeah, that strikes me as pretty extreme rejection of the person who didn't ignore you but tried to act brotherly and was rebuffed. 

[GodsBeloved]

39 minutes ago, Trixie Belden said:

 

 

@Lady Calypso YES to your entire post.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I loved all the Randall/Kevin present day scenes, especially Randall waving and saying "hi, Seth Myers" while being pinned to the ground by Kevin. I only wish Beth and William had saved them some "work brownies".

Yeah, I was hoping they would have a brownie while watching The Manny together.

I'm loathe to defend Toby but he really is in a no win situation.  He can't eat junk food without Kate because he would be "hiding" something from her, he can't eat it in front of her because then he's not supporting her, he can't say no to the dessert he wants because she knows he wants it!  I guess if Kate can't handle eating the way she needs to eat around someone who eats differently, she should break up with him.  I suppose it's a valid reason to break up with someone but on the other hand it seems really extreme to me.  I mean, at some point she is going to have to eat around other people and they are not always going to eat exactly like her.  It seems to me to be unhealthy to eat alone all of the time.  I feel like she would be better served to learn how to handle the fact that she has a burden that she alone is responsible for carrying.  It sucks but unless she accepts it, she's not going to make any progress towards her goal.

[ClareWalks]

5 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I'm loathe to defend Toby but he really is in a no win situation.  He can't eat junk food without Kate because he would be "hiding" something from her, he can't eat it in front of her because then he's not supporting her, he can't say no to the dessert he wants because she knows he wants it!  I guess if Kate can't handle eating the way she needs to eat around someone who eats differently, she should break up with him.  I suppose it's a valid reason to break up with someone but on the other hand it seems really extreme to me.  I mean, at some point she is going to have to eat around other people and they are not always going to eat exactly like her.  It seems to me to be unhealthy to eat alone all of the time.  I feel like she would be better served to learn how to handle the fact that she has a burden that she alone is responsible for carrying.  It sucks but unless she accepts it, she's not going to make any progress towards her goal.

This is why I suspect that Kate's weight problem is the result of food addiction, not of "bad metabolism" or thyroid issues or genetic issues. On top of her other relatives being athletic, which is indicative that genetics weren't an issue, her inability to be around unhealthy foods and the seeming "I give up" of eating the snack from the gas station really hammered it home. I feel for Kate in this situation, because it is so difficult to totally abstain from those trigger foods but for a lot of folks it is necessary because they will backslide if they are even around it. But yeah, as awful as Toby is usually, he really can't win here. It could be that he doesn't have the addiction problems that Kate does, so for him to totally deny himself would be unnecessary. Kate might only be able to be with a guy who has the same exact problem as her, and they can be committed to overcoming it together.

[Tikichick]

8 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Yeah, I was hoping they would have a brownie while watching The Manny together.

I'm loathe to defend Toby but he really is in a no win situation.  He can't eat junk food without Kate because he would be "hiding" something from her, he can't eat it in front of her because then he's not supporting her, he can't say no to the dessert he wants because she knows he wants it!  I guess if Kate can't handle eating the way she needs to eat around someone who eats differently, she should break up with him.  I suppose it's a valid reason to break up with someone but on the other hand it seems really extreme to me.  I mean, at some point she is going to have to eat around other people and they are not always going to eat exactly like her.  It seems to me to be unhealthy to eat alone all of the time.  I feel like she would be better served to learn how to handle the fact that she has a burden that she alone is responsible for carrying.  It sucks but unless she accepts it, she's not going to make any progress towards her goal.

Similar to an alcoholic she's going to have to decide when and if she's capable of spending time with someone who has similar issues with food as she does, and who may take a different path to their approach with food going forward.  What she's capable of right now as she attempts to relate differently with food than she has in the past may not be reflective of what she's capable of further down the line if she is successful in forging a new way of life in that regard.

[SlackerInc]

Good lord, that dessert! I would not be able to handle that, in Kate's shoes. (Ah, then at the gas station we see she indeed could not handle it.)

Agree that the teenage versions of the "Big Three" really resembled their older selves.

I really liked this episode overall, but there was something "off" about the way they repeated the audio about the washing machines in the beginning and the end. 

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Rebecca was supposed to be in her mid-40s when the kids were in high school, but it was just the usual fresh-faced, 32-year-old Mandy Moore in an unattractive wig. Makeup department dropped the ball on that one.

Both parents were not aged up enough. They should have been early 50s and mid-40s, and they just did not look it.  That was almost halfway timewise from the pilot (or other flashbacks to when the kids were babies) to when we saw Rebecca come to visit in the senior citizen makeup, but she didn't actually look like she'd aged even a tenth of the way.  And Jack could have been a well-preserved 45, maybe, but over 50?  There's only one Brad Pitt.

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Kate is going to have to do this by herself, for herself.  Eat what she should for her plan, while letting other people eat what they want.  I've gone on diets that lasted over a year, while eating lunch out with my husband every day.  He gets a Double Whooper while I get the grilled chicken sandwich. He gets the goey stuff off the Chinese buffet, while I get the salmon and green beans.

That's impressive that you can do that, but I just don't think most people can.  The vast majority of people can't keep weight off, period; but I think these kinds of expectations are part of the problem.  It's understood when an alcoholic doesn't want to be at a bar (Sam Malone notwithstanding) or someone trying to quit smoking not wanting to be around a bunch of smokers.  But when I tell people that my wife and I have separate fridges and kitchen cabinets, so I'm not tempted by her goodies (she and the kids do eat around me, but only things I can also eat; they eat whatever other mysterious items they have when I'm not in the kitchen, and I knock before entering), they act like this is weird as fuck.  And maybe it is, but OTOH I've kept a significant amount of weight off for years now, and I know I wouldn't have been able to do so otherwise.  Hell, I couldn't even handle it when a Red Lobster ad came on during this show: I had to close my eyes and mute the volume.  (Based on what @ClareWalks posted right before I was about to post this, I guess I must have a "food addiction".)

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

One touch that looked stupid to me was Toby's obvious pregnancy belly they're padding him with. 

The weird thing is that I totally bought it in previous episodes.  I don't know if they did a worse job this time or if it was because I knew (from reading here) that the actor is actually more svelte.  But one thing I definitely noticed at the weigh-in, that is also often an issue with the fake pregnancy bellies, is the lack of heft.  They should fill those things with water or something reasonably heavy.  They are obviously really light, so people kind of swing around quickly in a way that wouldn't work if there were a hundred pounds of heft in there.  (This is also a problem with coffee cups, but don't get me started on that.)

[luna1122]

2 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

This is why I suspect that Kate's weight problem is the result of food addiction, not of "bad metabolism" or thyroid issues or genetic issues. On top of her other relatives being athletic, which is indicative that genetics weren't an issue, her inability to be around unhealthy foods and the seeming "I give up" of eating the snack from the gas station really hammered it home.

I really think it could be a combination of factors. Food addictions, flagging will power AND health issues, which all tend to be exacerbated by one another. Vicious cycles. 

[ClareWalks]

2 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

(Based on what @ClareWalks posted right before I was about to post this, I guess I must have a "food addiction".)

Hey, I'm not trying to officially diagnose fictional characters, just saying she is behaving like an addict in recovery. It's not a character flaw, it's being human.

[SlackerInc]

1 minute ago, ClareWalks said:

Hey, I'm not trying to officially diagnose fictional characters, just saying she is behaving like an addict in recovery. It's not a character flaw, it's being human.

I wasn't saying that negatively, at all.  Sorry if it came across that way!

[topanga]

8 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It's so hard for me to watch television's portrayal of obesity.  I am obese by BMI standards.  I never eat like that.  For the rest of my life even if I never touch junk food I am pretty convinced I would continue to gain 10 lbs a year until death.  (I'm very confident I have the kind of body that needs to work out every day to stay the same.)  There are obese people like me who have motivational issues that prevent us from being super fit - instead of people who eat ice cream every day.  I haven't touched pop or fast food in a decade or more.  I try to never even eat bread, for instance. I don't eat ice cream because I'm lactose intolerant.  It's so fucking either/or on television, with no room for middle ground.

You said 'pop.' Cool. Where are you from?

Yes, the episode's portrayal of Kate's slow weight loss is cliche, along with the the food binges she and Toby partook in, but it's also a real phenomenon for many people. 

I agree that genetics and heredity play a significant role in body weight differences. There are genetic differences in metabolism and our natural weight set point. At the same time, the math remains the same.  In order to lose weight, the number of calories burned has to be greater than the calories I take in. It seems like Kate has been sticking to that horrible diet, so her calorie intake has been limited. At the same time, there are other factors playing a role in her weight loss: 

1) Food: How often does she eat? If she only eats 2-3 times a day (as opposed to 5 small meals), her body could be going into starvation mode, meaning her metabolism will slow down, making it harder to lose weight. And how much water does she drink? How much does she sleep at night? 

2) Exercise: walking on a treadmill isn't the most efficient way to burn calories. Granted, it's a good start for someone who lives a completely sedentary lifestyle. But after a while, it's better to switch to other fitness activities that burn more calories. There are indeed people who lose weight by walking, but you have to walk a lot, and the weight loss is slow. 

3) Genetics: Kate's been heavy since she was a little girl, and at that time, her family didn't seem to eat large amounts of junk food or fast food. Kevin, Rebecca, and Jack were all thin (or normal weight), but I'd bet that there are heavy people in either Jack or Rebecca's families. So Kate might have inherited "fat genes" from one or both of her parents, even though neither of her parents was overweight. These genes makes weight loss more difficult. 

[Lady Calypso]

57 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Don't hold me to this because I have only watched the episode once so far, but I think Randall said that's a star and pointed to The Manny billboard when Kevin said he'd be the star in the family if it weren't for Randall.

He did say this to Kevin, just before they started physically fighting. Kevin said the "replaced by another black man" to Randall before, which got them verbally fighting. But Randall definitely hit Kevin in the place where it hurts him the most, so both are absolutely not innocent in all of this. Unfortunately, siblings can do this. When they want to, they can really hit the most sensitive spots because they know where they are. My sister's done it to me quite a few times when she's been angry. I've done it to her as well.

Is it fair? Absolutely not. Is it realistic? I'd say it is. And that is what this show is trying to show people, I think. That no family is perfect and it's more than just a TV Family at play here. These could actually be real people with real problems, and that means they can be right and they can be wrong. And that's why this show tops Parenthood. As much as I enjoyed Parenthood for the first few seasons, that family really got away with everything and it was so preachy.

10 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

This is why I suspect that Kate's weight problem is the result of food addiction, not of "bad metabolism" or thyroid issues or genetic issues. On top of her other relatives being athletic, which is indicative that genetics weren't an issue, her inability to be around unhealthy foods and the seeming "I give up" of eating the snack from the gas station really hammered it home. I feel for Kate in this situation, because it is so difficult to totally abstain from those trigger foods but for a lot of folks it is necessary because they will backslide if they are even around it. But yeah, as awful as Toby is usually, he really can't win here. It could be that he doesn't have the addiction problems that Kate does, so for him to totally deny himself would be unnecessary. Kate might only be able to be with a guy who has the same exact problem as her, and they can be committed to overcoming it together.

I actually think it's a combination. I do think it's more than just food addiction, just by the way we've seen her try so hard to lose the weight, harder than Toby, and she's only been able to drop a pound (and a quarter). I think that her eating the snack was just a way of going "well, I can't lose the weight like Toby so why am I trying" and letting her indulge after cutting all of that out for weeks. But we don't really know the full extent of her weight issues; I just think it's a combination because of how hard we've seen Kate try to lose the weight and being unable to. 

And, to be fair, we don't know if Rebecca or Jack's parents or grandparents had obesity problems. We saw little Rebecca with her parents in one scene, but it doesn't mean that Kate didn't have it genetically passed down. I'm not into the sciences, though, so I don't know how this works.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[ClareWalks]

Just now, SlackerInc said:

I wasn't saying that negatively, at all.  Sorry if it came across that way!

No problem, I didn't want anyone to think I was being judgmental about it :) I relate strongly to your Red Lobster fondness, too. Plus I have had issues in the past where I determined that french fries are my trigger food, so I would not allow myself to eat even a single fry. And if I did, it was all over, I'd "given up" and there was no return. That isn't a healthy approach. I don't do it anymore, heh. 

I wonder if we will see more about Kate's role in the family. I know it was tough for her having a thin mom, but she seems to get along really well with the men in the family, and maybe she felt kind of torn between various conflicts among family members and her own issues with her mother. And her brothers, I mean my god, they are so athletic and lean. I wonder if maybe (just speculating wildly) the boys and Rebecca would do athletic things together and Kate felt left out.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

8 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Similar to an alcoholic she's going to have to decide when and if she's capable of spending time with someone who has similar issues with food as she does, and who may take a different path to their approach with food going forward.  What she's capable of right now as she attempts to relate differently with food than she has in the past may not be reflective of what she's capable of further down the line if she is successful in forging a new way of life in that regard.

That is an excellent point.  I was not thinking about it in terms of addiction, like alcoholism.  In that case, I would find it a good idea for her to break up with Toby as I would for an alcoholic who could not tolerate being around an occasional drinker.  I still feel bad for Toby's situation though since Kate seemed to be putting the responsibility for her weight loss on his shoulders.  He even tried to accommodate her in several ways but nothing was good enough.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

That is an excellent point.  I was not thinking about it in terms of addiction, like alcoholism.  In that case, I would find it a good idea for her to break up with Toby as I would for an alcoholic who could not tolerate being around an occasional drinker.  I still feel bad for Toby's situation though since Kate seemed to be putting the responsibility for her weight loss on his shoulders.  He even tried to accommodate her in several ways but nothing was good enough.

He's trying to do what he can for her, within his limits.  He has his struggle too.  Her issues with food are her own to deal with and she can't blame him unless he's absolutely making a bid to sabotage her, which I don't think he is.  They may be a good match, yet unable to function in a healthy relationship at the moment.  Time will tell.  Doesn't necessarily make either of them right or wrong, saint or sinner.

[SlackerInc]

4 minutes ago, topanga said:

At the same time, the math remains the same.  In order to lose weight, the number of calories burned has to be greater than the calories I take in.

This paradigm was considered gospel until very recently.  But it is increasingly being challenged scientifically.  From the NY Times a couple years ago:

Quote

 

At Harvard Medical School, Dr. Dariush Mozaffarian, an associate professor of medicine and epidemiology whose research was cited by experts in the film, said that the long-held idea that we get fat solely because we consume more calories than we expend is based on outdated science.

He has studied the effects that different foods have on weight gain and said that it is true that 100 calories of fat, protein and carbohydrates are the same in a thermodynamic sense, in that they release the same amount of energy when exposed to a Bunsen burner in a lab. But in a complex organism like a human being, he said, these foods influence satiety, metabolic rate, brain activity, blood sugar and the hormones that store fat in very different ways.

Studies also show that calories from different foods are not absorbed the same. When people eat high-fiber foods like nuts and some vegetables, for example, only about three-quarters of the calories they contain are absorbed. The rest are excreted from the body unused. So the calories listed on their labels are not what the body is actually getting.

“The implicit suggestion is that there are no bad calories, just bad people eating too much,” Dr. Mozaffarian said. “But the evidence is very clear that not all calories are created equal as far as weight gain and obesity. If you’re focusing on calories, you can easily be misguided.”

 

That article does also quote other experts (in some cases, working for processed food conglomerates) who stand by the calorie model.  But while MMV, I personally find the more complex picture described by the Harvard researcher much more persuasive.

[kili]

Quote

 I was not thinking about it in terms of addiction, like alcoholism.  In that case, I would find it a good idea for her to break up with Toby as I would for an alcoholic who could not tolerate being around an occasional drinker.  I still feel bad for Toby's situation though since Kate seemed to be putting the responsibility for her weight loss on his shoulders.

I don't. Kate was very upfront when they first met. She didn't think that she could do the weight loss thing with a love interest, He pooh-poohed her and relentlessly pursued her. When somebody tells you who they are, believe them.

Kate knew that dating somebody who was also trying to lose weight would not work for her. Just as she told him that they couldn't watch football together. He dismissed it, rolled the dice and took his chances. That it is not working out is unfortunate for both of them. But, he was given fair warning.

He should eat the way he wants. It is possible that following Kate's diet is too strict for him and may even be somewhat unhealthy. Losing weight too fast is hard on your body. Sure, eating the chocolate brownie 20 layer cake with ice cream isn't doing your body any favours either. There is a middle-ground between kale and deep-fried ice cream.

Whatever Kate is doing clearly is not working properly and at her weight, if she does want to lose it, she should consult an expert and get a proper weight loss regime for her situation. But, this is a TV show with a real actor. Just like on Lost where they had to parachute in never-spoiling-ranch dressing and Apollo bars, the character cannot lose weight unless the actor does. To demand that of an actor is not reasonable. I think people just need to politely ignore the logic in this situation and maybe the writers should move onto a new obsession for Kate.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, kili said:

I don't. Kate was very upfront when they first met. She didn't think that she could do the weight loss thing with a love interest, He pooh-poohed her and relentlessly pursued her. When somebody tells you who they are, believe them.

Kate knew that dating somebody who was also trying to lose weight would not work for her. Just as she told him that they couldn't watch football together. He dismissed it, rolled the dice and took his chances. That it is not working out is unfortunate for both of them. But, he was given fair warning.

He should eat the way he wants. It is possible that following Kate's diet is too strict for him and may even be somewhat unhealthy. Losing weight too fast is hard on your body. Sure, eating the chocolate brownie 20 layer cake with ice cream isn't doing your body any favours either. There is a middle-ground between kale and deep-fried ice cream.

Whatever Kate is doing clearly is not working properly and at her weight, if she does want to lose it, she should consult an expert and get a proper weight loss regime for her situation. But, this is a TV show with a real actor. Just like on Lost where they had to parachute in never-spoiling-ranch dressing and Apollo bars, the character cannot lose weight unless the actor does. To demand that of an actor is not reasonable. I think people just need to politely ignore the logic in this situation and maybe the writers should move onto a new obsession for Kate.

I agree, Kate's weight is a liability as a storyline IMO, one I have a lot of concerns about precisely because there is a very real person performing the role who may not be able to change course on a dime the way writers may envision on the page.

[Haleth]

I'm certainly no expert but if Kate only lost 1.25lbs after starving herself for a week it doesn't seem like diet alone and Weight Watchers (or whatever) will be enough. She needs to talk to a doctor. (Assuming she truly wants to lose the weight.). And if her food issues are related to her dad's death, maybe she needs help with that too.

[topanga]

14 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

This paradigm was considered gospel until very recently.  But it is increasingly being challenged scientifically.  From the NY Times a couple years ago:

That article does also quote other experts (in some cases, working for processed food conglomerates) who stand by the calorie model.  But while MMV, I personally find the more complex picture described by the Harvard researcher much more persuasive.

Great excerpt. And you are totally right. For example some foods have a higher "glycemic index" per calorie, meaning they encourage your body to release insulin, which might cause you to gain (or maintain) weight. Diet foods and drinks are especially bad when it comes to this issue. Even though the soda bottle says 'zero calories,' that diet soda might cause your body to react as if you've just eaten a lot of sugar. Which would be the exact opposite of what you want your body to do when you lose weight. 

I was making the over-simplified statement that in order to lose weight, you have to burn more than you take in. And that's still (basically) true, with definite nuances, as you pointed out. 

[memememe76]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It honestly seems like Kevin's father treated him quite well.  It's really hard for some of us to sympathize because we all know so many people in so many worse situations than having 2 married parents with 1 who often shows that he loves you.  Blaming Randall for his issues at 36 just makes him look like a mental case.   He never called his brother his "brother" out loud until he was 36.  He needs help.

In Kevin's defence, how many times would he need to introduce Randall as his brother? They went to different schools. As kids, it's normally the parents who introduces the family. If Randall actually went to LA and attended a taping of The Manny, I would expect Kevin to have introduced Randall as his brother. 

Grammar: I thought Kevin was right in saying "Just you and me." Am I wrong? 

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

In Kevin's defence, how many times would he need to introduce Randall as his brother? They went to different schools. As kids, it's normally the parents who introduces the family. If Randall actually went to LA and attended a taping of The Manny, I would expect Kevin to have introduced Randall as his brother. 

Grammar: I thought Kevin was right in saying "Just you and me." Am I wrong? 

Really.  I have two brothers and I use the phrase "My brother this" "My brother that" all the live long day.  For example, I just did.  I'm sure I have said the word "brother" at least a million times in my life, easily.  

[GodsBeloved]

8 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

Grammar: I thought Kevin was right in saying "Just you and me." Am I wrong? 

I believe you and Kevin are right.

[memememe76]

11 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Really.  I have two brothers and I use the phrase "My brother this" "My brother that" all the live long day.  For example, I just did.  I'm sure I have said the word "brother" at least a million times in my life, easily.  

But Randall would not be present for those conversations. In the previous episode, Kevin mentioned he had two siblings to that woman who lost her husband. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by memememe76

[Ms Blue Jay]

Sorry, but I can't agree with you.  I also hear my brothers use the term "my sister" about me often when I'm right there.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

This Is Us Gets Us High On Life

Before everything comes out in the wash.

[HeySandyStrange]

Quote

While Kevin definitely took out his anger at Rebecca's behaviour (ignoring him his entire life) on the wrong person, Kevin is not the only jealous person. Randall seems to be jealous of Kevin as well - he did not look happy that his co-workers were fawning over Kevin (I think that is one of the reasons he was petty about the phone call) or all the attention Kevin got at the restaurant. I wonder if there were some extra issues in the brother relationship when Kevin started publicly excelling at something.  It would give Randall another reason for never having watched the show. 

This is why I find the Kevin/Randall sibling rivalry and resentment fascinating, because it is so real. Having grown up in a dysfunctional family with severe resentment fostered between my siblings and I, I definitely see the parallels. I can see both Randall and Kevin falling into the "My pain is bigger then your pain, and anyway your life is pretty damn perfect from where I sit" mindset that makes letting go and moving on very difficult.  On one side you've got Kevin resentful about Randall's preferential treatment from Rebecca, probably envious of Randall's happy, stable family and his very important and respectable career. On the other side, Randall probably feels like Kevin always had it easier, could do and be what he wanted without all the internal and external pressure not to fail, and was always popular and "cool" without really trying. Even as a semi-rational adult it is pretty hard to move on from this mindset, though at least we saw some progress at the end.

On a similar note, I get that Kevin is extroverted and self-centered and Randall is the quiet one, but I find it hard to believe that all those years growing up Randall never once bit back at Kevin verbally. I mean, it seems impossible that Randall never lashed out and made fun of Kevin's intelligence, for instance. I suppose that could still be to come. I like Randall but sometimes I feel like he has the potential to become too saintly, at least in comparison to his siblings.

Edited November 16, 2016 by HeySandyStrange

[Lady Calypso]

22 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Sorry, but I can't agree with you.  I also hear my brothers use the term "my sister" about me often when I'm right there.

I'd like to think that Kevin has called Randall "his brother" when Randall isn't around, but I guess we won't really know. I guess, to be fair, just because Randall hasn't heard him say the words, it doesn't mean that Kevin hasn't said them. But, on the other hand, Kevin never denied it. But on the other other hand, maybe Kevin didn't want to get into it because they already had an emotional night. 

So basically, I guess we'll see over the course of the series through the flashbacks if this was ever true or not. Randall never heard him say those words, but he hasn't been around Kevin all the time. What I can believe is that Kevin might never had said "my brother" in a loving way that many siblings would. 

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

This is why I find the Kevin/Randall sibling rivalry and resentment fascinating, because it is so real. Having grown up in a dysfunctional family with severe resentment fostered between my siblings and I, I definitely see the parallels. I can see both Randall and Kevin falling into the "My pain is bigger then your pain, and anyway your life is pretty damn perfect from where I sit" mindset that makes letting go and moving on very difficult.  On one side you've got Kevin resentful about Randall's preferential treatment from Rebecca, probably envious of Randall's happy, stable family and his very important and respectable career. On the other side, Randall probably feels like Kevin always had it easier, could do and be what he wanted without all the internal and external pressure not to fail, and was always popular and "cool" without really trying. Even as a semi-rational adult it is pretty hard to move on from this mindset, though at least we saw some progress at the end.

I think this whole dynamic may be about to be upended.  Now that the cat is half out of the bag, Randall may find out that everything he believed and felt about his mother is tainted by her big lie.  It's going to be intensely painful.  Kevin may be on the verge of a big failure on Broadway -- despite Olivia's funeral ploy that is supposed to unleash his deep grief he hasn't been accessing -- and he is prevented from appearing on t.v. and in movies, and then he has to really question who he is.  Maybe they are both in for some big realignments.  That would be interesting to me, more so than just ongoing rivalry or sudden total best buds.  Randall is also about to lose his father, and it may be all too much for a guy who once went blind during a stressful time.  Kevin might really step up, who knows. 

[BananaRama]

My heart broke when teenage Randall brought cookies and milk to teenage Kevin in the basement and Kevin tossed him an attitude.  I do hope that their fight tonight mends their relationship tremendously and that they are better friends and brothers now. My heart can't take watching them hurt each other.  Also Kevin's "In any other family - I would be the star" line was so selfish - never mind that he was directing it towards Randall - what about Kate! Poor Kate had to deal with two super stars in her family.  I wonder if that contributed to her weight gain?

[HeySandyStrange]

Quote

I think this whole dynamic may be about to be upended.  Now that the cat is half out of the bag, Randall may find out that everything he believed and felt about his mother is tainted by her big lie.  It's going to be intensely painful. 

I definitely think Randall is a mama's boy and he is going to be hit hard by the fact  that Rebecca was not the perfect mother. I think that's what made it so hard for him to admit that Rebecca preferred him over Kevin. I tend to think, out of the siblings, Kevin might end up being the one that sees things most clearly about who his parents really were/are at the end of the day. Maybe he will get the chance to be Randall's rock if and when the cat is let out of the bag, which could open both characters up to a lot of growth.

Quote

 Also Kevin's "In any other family - I would be the star" line was so selfish - never mind that he was directing it towards Randall - what about Kate! Poor Kate had to deal with two super stars in her family.  I wonder if that contributed to her weight gain?

That is a really good point and is a big reason why Kate needs to haul ass to the other coast and get in on this sibling dynamic. While Kevin and Randall are gripping about who had it worse, she needs to cut in and be like," Mr. Popular, Mr. Staight A's, it wasn't all about just you guys, other people where struggling just as hard with even less," or something in that vein. I also tend to see all of the Big Three dealing with issues of self-centeredness, so it will be interesting to see them all interact.

[topanga]

30 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

On a similar note, I get that Kevin is extroverted and self-centered and Randall is the quiet one, but I find it hard to believe that all those years growing up Randall never once bit back at Kevin verbally. I mean, it seems impossible that Randall never lashed out and made fun of Kevin's intelligence, for instance. I suppose that could still be to come. I like Randall but sometimes I feel like he has the potential to become too saintly, at least in comparison to his siblings.

We saw that Randall has a sarcastic sense of humor at times (when he joked about the moldy smell in the basement), and I'm sure he occasionally used humor it to put down Kevin . And we know he bit back physically on the football field. I don't know if they ever had any more fist fights, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

 

13 minutes ago, BananaRama said:

Also Kevin's "In any other family - I would be the star" line was so selfish - never mind that he was directing it towards Randall - what about Kate! Poor Kate had to deal with two super stars in her family.  I wonder if that contributed to her weight gain?

Possibly. But Kate was chubby--though not morbidly obese--as a child, even though she didn't eat more than her siblings. So she already had the propensity to be overweight. She certainly could've developed emotional eating issues during adolescence in response to the many conflicts in the family. 

[memememe76]

19 minutes ago, BananaRama said:

what about Kate! Poor Kate had to deal with two super stars in her family.  I wonder if that contributed to her weight gain?

In many ways, Randall and Kevin benefited from their competitive natures. I found interesting that small scene where Young Kate was setting up the water station and she thanked someone. Even in that role, she was in support of her brothers. And happy to do so. 

A poster wondered where Kevin ends up becoming interested in acting. I can foresee Kevin stops playing football due to injury, so Kate encourages him to join the School Play with her (we know she has musical talent). Kevin ends up staging her up, accidentally. Tragedy ensues. 

[tennisgurl]

Man, something about this show. It just fills my room with dust for some reason...

I really do hope Kevin and Randall can make up soon. Kevin can be a real asshole (especially as a teenager), but I do feel for him. Yeah, he has had it pretty good, especially compared to plenty of other people, but I can see his angst, coupled with a bit of natural ego and a bad case of middle child syndrome. He has always felt ignored, and he always blamed it on Randall, even though it was clearly not his fault. Of course, I also feel bad for Randall. He so clearly wanted to connect with his brother, and Kevin made it impossible. Did they ever have good times together? Kevin sent him a nice email on their birthday where he called him Bro, so is that the extent of their relationship, before moving? Kevin gets along with Randall's kids, so they must have spent some time together. I guess just random family stuff. Its pretty awful that they apparently never got along, ever, You would think jack and Rebecca would have worked harder to mend their relationship. 

I thought the secretary was flirting with Jack, but he seemed to just feel awkward about it. Will Rebecca and Jack break up due to an affair? Maybe its just because of what we know happens later with Rebecca and her second marriage to Jacks best friend, but I feel like she might be having the affair. Or maybe they just drift apart? It makes my heart sad. I really like Jack and Rebecca as a couple, and it sucks to see them struggling, and knowing how things turn out.

Damn this show, even household appliances make me cry in this freaking show!

Kate's plots still tend to be my least favorite, sadly. She just seems to be stuck in her own plot that focuses around her weight and her relationship with Toby, a relationship that I am just not that into. Is it me, or are they moving really fast? Haven't they only known each other for about a month? A whole lot seems to be riding on this relationship after such a short amount of time. I just dont see them being a long lasting, healthy couple, so whats the point? I know she needs to get independence from Kevin, but the meat and potatoes of this show is the family stuff, and while the other characters are dealing with the family drama, Kate is just off in her own show in LA.

Cant wait for next week, as always!  

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, topanga said:

Two people have said it--you're probably right. I'll have to re-watch that scene. I thought for sure that Randall was the one who said something mean. It sure felt like it. Maybe it was as simple as Randall asking, "Is that the new Manny?" Knowing darn well that would upset Kevin. 

No, Randall didn't say that either. 

[topanga]

5 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

No, Randall didn't say that either. 

Jeez, then what show was I watching? Or did I give all of Kevin's lines to Randall? I'm as bad as Rebecca!!!

[ohjoy]

12 minutes ago, topanga said:

We saw that Randall has a sarcastic sense of humor at times (when he joked about the moldy smell in the basement), and I'm sure he occasionally used humor it to put down Kevin . And we know he bit back physically on the football field. I don't know if they ever had any more fist fights, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

I've been trying to find a way to say pretty much this. Randall's sense of humor and quick wit tends toward a dry, slightly mocking tone. It's fantastic as self-deprecation ("We gotta go, I'm still black"), but it has the potential to be cutting when used against others, even when he doesn't necessarily mean it to be -- especially when that person is someone who deals with things much more openly and doesn't seem to follow subtly all that well (i.e. Kevin). I could see Randall intending his jokes (about the basement, for example) to be taken good-natured teasing, while Kevin perceived them to be mocking and wanted none of it. Kevin doesn't appear to typically come up with in-kind responses as quickly as Randall, so his go-to move is to shut down and shut out the competition. (Seems like he's always trying to leave or go hide when he gets too emotional about things.) And the harder Randall tried to force a breakthrough (either through being sweet and perfect like his mom kept reinforcing or through brute force on the football field), the less Kevin wanted to deal with it. As Beth implied, they could pretend to be fine as long as there was someone else there for them to focus on, but when left alone things just went south quickly, because neither one would/could say what they really felt.

[HeySandyStrange]

6 minutes ago, topanga said:

Jeez, then what show was I watching? Or did I give all of Kevin's lines to Randall? I'm as bad as Rebecca!!!

I need to go back and re-watch the scene, but the gist of it was that Kevin was really upset about seeing how quickly he was replaced and was lamenting to Randall( possibly throwing in that nasty comment about "being replaced by another black man"). Randall, probably to lightened to mood, tried to make a light-hearted comment about how Kevin didn't even like the show and ran away from it. Whether Randall meant to put any bite in it or not, Kevin seemed to take it as "Golden Boy with the important Wall Street Job" was putting down his pathetic sitcom career.

[biakbiak]

They see the billboard of the new Manny and Randall immediately starts cracking up and saying that it's funny. it was also right after his other "joke" that the only reason that Kate showed up to the taping of the Manny when he had proudly invited the entire family was because he was paying her. Both things were dickish. is Kevin a petulant dick with a chip on his shoulder, yes but Randall is also capable of being an ass.

[WhosThatGirl]

While it isn't Randells fault that as a child his mother did favor him but now as an adult he seems to enjoy it. He didn't allow Kevin to talk to Rebecca on the phone when she called to cancel dinner plans. Kevin said let me talk to her, put her on speaker. So yes while Rebecca started the problem as an adult Randall does seem aware of it nkw and isn't making choices to rectify the situation. Not letting Kevin say hello to their mom is childish. 

Personally I'm not really sure why Toby is even in a weight loss group if it makes him feel so constricted and that he feels he can gain the weight and lose it quick. And yes, he and Kate do want different things from the weight loss group and it will be a conflict in their relationship. 

[saber5055]

As someone who is depressed by the lack of proper English in reality shows AND scripted shows, the best line of the night was Randall correcting Kevin's "Randall and me" to "Randall and I." I actually shouted YES! to my tv. Thank you, show writers. You have put yourselves head and shoulders above all other writing crews.

[Jx223]

4 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

 

It seems Kevin has mostly outgrown his jealousy issues with Randall, until they are brought to the forefront.  Randall seems to be the one 20 years later haning on to it more

I think that one big reason Randall was acting like that is because he was trying to pay Kevin back for the way he treated him when they were kids. I believe that Randall trying to literally run away from him during their run,  never watching the Manny or attending a taping was revenge. I also think it was a way of saying "I don't really need to spend time with you like that anymore." (Or it was prior to them talking things out a bit and deciding to spend some time together in the basement.)

I think that sometimes when a relationship is strained with a loved one due to mistreatment a person will still want to keep their distance even if the other person tries to make amends. Especially if the person that was mistreated has "made it" and now has another strong support system (like their own family) in place. It's easier for them now to try and reject the other person when this happens. I think that may be the case with Randall and him trying to rebuff Kevin in various ways.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Did they ever have good times together? Kevin sent him a nice email on their birthday where he called him Bro, so is that the extent of their relationship, before moving? Kevin gets along with Randall's kids, so they must have spent some time together. I guess just random family stuff. 

It seems like Kevin has matured(though he still has some maturing to do) since he's become an adult and it's to the point to where he can spend some time with Randall and his family. Even though their relationship is strained, at least they do "talk" to each other at times and can spend time around each other.

Beth doesn't dislike Kevin and I think she would if she felt like he was truly a big obstacle to adult Randall's happiness. I believe Randall has told her about their strained relationship, but even knowing that history she doesn't dislike him. I don't think he's been mistreating Randall on a regular basis since she's been with Randall so I think she can at least tolerate him. 

I think that the women in their lives might be a big reason why they may have been able to foster some type of a relationship as adults. Even though it's a strained one. I think that Kate encourages them to interact and they both want to be around Rebecca. Beth wants Randall to be happy and Randall's kids being naturally loving towards Kevin also helps the situation.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Jx223

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Observing a parent repeatedly demonstrate incredible levels of love and caring for a sibling while not demonstrating the same for the sibling observing and craving that love can have a profound impact on someone's psyche.  Particularly when your pain is happening right under the parent's nose and they never notice.  Yeah, I would guess anybody would need help to cope and sustain a healthy emotional life.

Yes, I know, I've lived it.  That's why I'm not as sympathetic towards Kevin.  He's 3 years older than I am.  I'm not bitter towards my sibling the way he is.  I think I got over those feelings towards my sibling when I was a teenager and realized it wasn't at all my sibling's fault, because he was an innocent child.

Kate and Randall's stories strike me as way more sympathetic.  Personal opinion.

If the show was more about Kevin realizing he has Mommy Issues (hello, me in a nutshell) then yeah, that's understandable for me.  But instead he lashes out at Randall.  It's hard to understand, but the show is interesting, because it's helping fill the blanks, and it's relatable.  But am I super sympathetic towards Kevin?  Nah.  And that's okay we can all see it differently.  I dislike having Mommy issues sure, but I hate being blamed or lashed out at for things that aren't my fault just as much.  i.e. how I see Randall in this equation.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Surgery is the most effective weight loss treatment.

In the short run. Every person I've known (and I know quite a few) who have done it have gained the weight back. They had amazing losses, and it took them longer, but eventually they were back to square one.

6 hours ago, kili said:

Kevin was on the show for 4 years....she never got around to it in 4 years? Most people can find time in their busy schedule over a period of 4 years. Kevin invited her. Kevin was the star of the show. It was important to Kevin. She didn't want to go.

Yep. My MIL never once, in 30 years, came out to the west coast to visit my husband. I invited her pretty much every year for the first five years we were married, and there was always some excuse (along the same lines as gout). I stopped inviting her. She expected her kids to visit her, not the other way around.

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I am obese by BMI standards.  I never eat like that.  

Mileage varies. I am as well, even though I exercise each and every day and have done for the last 20 years. I cook all my food from scratch making it flavorful without fat, portion it out, and make it healthy. But when I'm stressed or triggered in some other way, absolutely, I binge. I watched that scene after having done exactly what Kate did (different comfort food - but man, it's been a stressful week) So to me, anyway,  it was dead on - the buying, the hesitation, and the ultimate eating.

I just want to point out one difference between alcohol addiction and food addiction. You never HAVE to drink alcohol again. But you do have to eat, you will always be around food. It is an unending struggle.

This is the first time I felt the "Manuel is kind of a sleaze" vibe - I checked out his left hand and he still had his wedding ring on.

As for William's reveal - I'm thinking it won't just be Rebecca he'll be angry with. After all, William's lied to him as well, and didn't make an effort to know him as he was growing up. I'm not sure he can cancer his way out of that (love, love, love Beth).
 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Clanstarling