S07.E07: Ka Makuahine A Me Ke Keikikane / Mother and Son

[blackwing]

Five-0 fights to free McGarrett's mother when Catherine informs them she was captured and is about to be executed for attempting to free Wo Fat's imprisoned father. Meanwhile, Chin loses his appeal to have Sara's adoption delayed and she must move to Mexico.

Source:  TV Guide

This appears to be the 150th episode, since we were told pre-season that the 150th episode would feature Doris and Catherine.

For whatever reason, the CBS site doesn't have a press release for this episode up... the most recent one has skipped ahead to an episode that is airing on November 18.

[BW Manilowe]

15 hours ago, blackwing said:

 

Source:  TV Guide

This appears to be the 150th episode, since we were told pre-season that the 150th episode would feature Doris and Catherine.

For whatever reason, the CBS site doesn't have a press release for this episode up... the most recent one has skipped ahead to an episode that is airing on November 18.

Yes, it's the 150th episode. CBS apparently got a little behind in posting the press releases this week. Here's their version, which has a bit more info in my opinion.

Quote

Five-0 must free McGarrett's mother, Doris (Christine Lahti), when Catherine (Michelle Borth) informs them that she was captured and is about to be executed after attempting to free Wo Fat's imprisoned father. Also, Chin loses his appeal to have Sara's adoption delayed, and she must move to Mexico, on the 150th episode of Hawaii Five-0. Sarah Carter returns for the milestone episode and Christine Lahti's daughter, Emma Schlamme, guest stars as a young Doris McGarrett.

Original Airdate: November 4, 2016

SOURCE: http://cbspressexpress.com/cbs-entertainment/shows/hawaii-five-0/releases/view?id=46326

Edited October 28, 2016 by BW Manilowe
To add some information.

[blackwing]

I know that Catherine is one of those polarising characters that people seem to either love or hate.  I have always liked her.  I think she has been Steve's most successful relationship.  I know there was much said about Deserted Island Lady lately, but that lady was on the show maybe two times, and whatever he has with her, I just don't see as all that.

I know that Catherine is on for only this episode, and the show has said that Steve and Catherine are done forever.  But I hope she gets to be happy and go off into the sunset.  I fear that she may die.  This whole season started with Steve feeling his mortality, and since the female love interests on this show have always been nothing but tools for the writers to advance the male characters, I would not be at all surprised if the show killed Catherine to give Steve yet another sign of how old he is getting.

[blackwing]

I enjoyed this episode a lot.  No Scott Cahn and no Jerry Garcia!  It was great seeing both Doris and Catherine.

Is that the same actress playing Deserted Island Lady?  I didn't recognise her at all, which speaks volumes as to the impact she has had on me.  She didn't look like the same person.  With that bad blonde wig and dark eyebrows, she looked cheap and trashy.

I always liked Catherine.  Not sure why she was so poorly received when she was on the show and if that led to them firing the actress.  But in her scenes with Steve, she had way more chemistry with him than Deserted Island Lady ever will.  "What would you have said if I had asked you?"  "I would have said yes."   Steve knows he screwed it up.  She would have given up her CIA life for him.  

Very bittersweet.  Kind of like the ending of season six (?) of Alias, when Balthazar Getty is about to sacrifice himself to try and defuse a bomb and he says on the comms, "Rachel... I wish we had had more time.  I would have asked you out."   She says "I would have said yes."   Then he blows up.

It seems like the show's ratings this season are way better than last season, so perhaps there will be a season 8 after all.  Even though they said she was done, I hope Catherine comes back someday.  And I hope we see more of Doris.  I want to know more about her secrets.  The way Yao looked at her, it seems very likely that Wo Fat was their son.

Grover is supposed to be a detective and he can't figure out that his son and Grace are dating?   And what was the explanation for where his wife and daughter were?  

[anna0852]

19 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I always liked Catherine.  Not sure why she was so poorly received when she was on the show and if that led to them firing the actress.  But in her scenes with Steve, she had way more chemistry with him than Deserted Island Lady ever will.  "What would you have said if I had asked you?"  "I would have said yes."   Steve knows he screwed it up.  She would have given up her CIA life for him.  

It seems like the show's ratings this season are way better than last season, so perhaps there will be a season 8 after all.  Even though they said she was done, I hope Catherine comes back someday.  And I hope we see more of Doris.  I want to know more about her secrets.  The way Yao looked at her, it seems very likely that Wo Fat was their son.

The actress was not fired, she elected to leave the show.

And I'm not sure what you mean by McGarrett screwing things up between. He was never anything but supportive of her career choices, he begged her not to run off in Afghanistan and when she came back for Kono's wedding he welcomed he with open arms, ready to pop the question. He never tried to make her choose, in fact he didn't even know she was leaving because of the CIA. He did quite rightfully say he wasn't going to wait and why should he? Cath doesn't get to go in and out of his life on a whim and Steve's allow to say he wants more than that. Even now when she showed back up on his doorstep it was awkward but he wasn't mean or rejecting of her. 

While I wouldn't be surprised to find out Yao and Doris had a relationship, Wo Fat is not their son. Steve suspected as such at least 2 seasons ago and had Max check the DNA. There was no genetic connections between the two of the, which means Wo Fat is not related to Doris.

[Mittengirl]

I think we all knew within seconds that Grover's son is dating Grace.  Was I the only one that thought it odd that Grace referred to him as "Mr. Grover"?  Rather than Lt. Grover?  It just sounded off to me.

 

I would think that leaving the country at the drop of a hat is not really a good way to make your case for custody of a smalll child.

Do we know if Sarah knows her aunt and uncle?  She and her mother lived in Mexico before, correct?  Either way, it would seem like that the court/child welfare people would want there to be a little transition time and not just send her off.  Maybe a week or two with Chin and the adoptive couple.  But I am sure she will be back sooner or later, once we find out aunt and uncle are Bad People.  'Cause you know they are.

[BW Manilowe]

10 hours ago, blackwing said:

I enjoyed this episode a lot.  No Scott Cahn and no Jerry Garcia!  It was great seeing both Doris and Catherine.

Is that the same actress playing Deserted Island Lady?  I didn't recognise her at all, which speaks volumes as to the impact she has had on me.  She didn't look like the same person.  With that bad blonde wig and dark eyebrows, she looked cheap and trashy.

I always liked Catherine.  Not sure why she was so poorly received when she was on the show and if that led to them firing the actress.  But in her scenes with Steve, she had way more chemistry with him than Deserted Island Lady ever will.  "What would you have said if I had asked you?"  "I would have said yes."   Steve knows he screwed it up.  She would have given up her CIA life for him.  

Very bittersweet.  Kind of like the ending of season six (?) of Alias, when Balthazar Getty is about to sacrifice himself to try and defuse a bomb and he says on the comms, "Rachel... I wish we had had more time.  I would have asked you out."   She says "I would have said yes."   Then he blows up.

It seems like the show's ratings this season are way better than last season, so perhaps there will be a season 8 after all.  Even though they said she was done, I hope Catherine comes back someday.  And I hope we see more of Doris.  I want to know more about her secrets.  The way Yao looked at her, it seems very likely that Wo Fat was their son.

Grover is supposed to be a detective and he can't figure out that his son and Grace are dating?   And what was the explanation for where his wife and daughter were?  

Yes, that was Sarah Carter, the same actress who's played Lynn Downey in at least 2 other eps (I'm on to your "thing" of either misspelling or forgetting the names of actors/characters you don't like/care about, or giving them weird nicknames, BTW). I hope that was a wig they had her in, or it was something for another, more longterm role she was filming at the same time & so she couldn't "ditch" it easily, because I actually agree with you--for once--that the hairstyle, at least, does nothing for her.

I liked Catherine too--at least until they started writing her as lying to Steve about things. But after this ep, maybe I understand it... a little.

It wasn't that the character of Catherine was poorly received. At least not by most, & not until she started lying to Steve about what we now know was her having become a CIA operative. And, as far as I know, she wasn't fired; her storyline just ended, for awhile, at that particular time. At least as far as Catherine's usefulness as a regular character was concerned (there was a thing between her & some viewers--I won't call them "fans", because I don't consider them that--on Social Media awhile back, which caused Michelle Borth, who plays Catherine, to keep her Social Media accounts but to stop posting on them, & some of those non-fans supposedly tried to use it to get her fired, but I don't believe they were successful). The character & actress just went back to their original "recurring" status. 

I don't necessarily think Steve screwed it up at all. Nor do I think Catherine would've necessarily given up her life as a CIA operative even if she said yes. I mean, Doris obviously didn't when/just because John McGarrett asked & she said yes to him. And I think that may have actually been the point: Catherine is "Doris 2.0" for Steve (some articles about this ep, both from pre- & [I think] post-airing have also said this). After the talk with Doris while they were waiting to get Wo Fat's Dad, or escape, or whatever, I think he understood that better & that's why he & Catherine ended the way they did this ep. Whatever it was that she said that was like, "You can still care about someone without being in their life."--that was the essence of it, I think; it wasn't Catherine's specific line.

Even I wouldn't necessarily say the show's ratings are "way" better this season than last season. But they are better than last, for the most part (except for last week's new ep, when The World Series killed the night for everything it was up against & the show apparently matched the series' lowest rating...which was still respectable for a Friday night). Only CBS knows if we get an S8, but of course I'm hoping.

I don't think Catherine is "done" completely. I think she's "done" in the sense of she & Steve are no longer "McRoll", as the show's shippers call them, & they won't be again. But I don't think Catherine's "done" in the sense that we'll see her again, as a friend of Steve's, or as someone with "Secret Ops" experience she could call on again for help with a CIA op, if needed. Kind of like she did in the ep, even though it also had to do with rescuing Doris. I'm pretty sure Lenkov even said in 1 of the many 150th ep articles I linked to in the Media thread that the Catherine character wasn't done.

I hope we see Doris too, even though she exasperates the hell out of Steve--though I hope he's also come to understand her better, as well, after she told him where to find all that stuff she hid under the floor at the house which I think she meant to fill in the blanks for him about her/her life. 

No, Wo Fat is not Doris' son with Yao Fat. Even though Wo Fat kept insisting on calling Steve "brother" in the 100th ep where Steve ended up killing Wo Fat. In a very early season, I wanna say S2 or S3, Steve managed to get a blood sample, or something else that could be tested for DNA, from Wo Fat & he gave it to Max for testing (presumably with a DNA sample from him, for comparison). Max told Steve he & Wo Fat weren't related--& I doubt Max would lie, under any circumstances, about that. Wo Fat considered himself Steve's brother because, as Steve said in the ep this week, Doris felt enough guilt about killing Wo Fat's Mom (when she was supposed to kill his Dad) that she took Wo Fat in & raised him as her own until her CIA bosses got wind of it & she had to abandon him (this being show canon from earlier seasons/eps).

As for Grover & Will, obviously either Will & Grace (I know...) are being very careful or it's a case of parents being blind to what their kids are doing. You actually care where Grover's wife & daughter, Samantha, were? You never care where any of the other MIA characters are, & seem to prefer they don't mention it. I know, though, that the actress who's been playing Mrs. Grover also has a role in something that airs on Starz, which I forget the title of, & a role on Blindspot this season. But I don't know what, if anything, the actress who plays their daughter, Samantha, is up to. Lenkov also said, I think in a different interview, that there were problems getting the whole cast in this ep due to scheduling. Maybe they were out shopping. Since the writers wrote in an excuse for Danny's absence, I guess they couldn't be bothered to make another for Renee & Samantha Grover. And that's understandable (to me, at least). Danny's a "core"character; Grover's family members aren't.

Edited November 5, 2016 by BW Manilowe
Trying to fix a tag I screwed up. Then add part of a sentence I accidentally erased.

[LotusFlower]

I like Catherine, too, and she's the only gf Alex has chemistry with, so I was sad that their story seemed to end in this episode.  Alex's interviews (in the media thread) kept mentioning closure, and he even said Catherine was not really the "one that got away," but rather the one that never should have happened, cuz it would have been like marrying his mother.  Ouch.  So even though Lenkov said she'll likely be around as long as the series runs, it feels kaput to me.  Bummer.  

[BW Manilowe]

7 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

I like Catherine, too, and she's the only gf Alex has chemistry with, so I was sad that their story seemed to end in this episode.  Alex's interviews (in the media thread) kept mentioning closure, and he even said Catherine was not really the "one that got away," but rather the one that never should have happened, cuz it would have been like marrying his mother.  Ouch.  So even though Lenkov said she'll likely be around as long as the series runs, it feels kaput to me.  Bummer.  

Like I said above, Steve & Catherine as a couple ("McRoll") may be/probably is over, but they'll still be friends--& we'll probably see her back when she needs an extra, experienced, hand with 1 of her missions like we did tonight; although those missions probably won't involve rescuing Doris again anytime soon (hopefully).

[kitmerlot1213]

There was a great deal of antagonism between certain fans of the show and Michelle Borth on Twitter to the point where Borth was cursing at them and calling them names--like "angry monkey" and "jealous bitches"--and the fans very rightly sent the inappropriate tweets to CBS so the producers could see how their employee was interacting with members of the fanbase.  I don't think there was ever an effort to get anyone fired, just for the bullying to stop.  All of this can be verified if you look at Borth's Twitter feed and the Twitter feeds of the fans she argued with.

As for Catherine, I watched avidly in Seasons 1 through 5 and the Steve/Catherine relationship went from a friends with benefits where Catherine would go to Steve's whenever she was in town to trying to convince the viewers they were epic soulmates.  I never got the vibe that Steve and Catherine were madly in love, just that they liked and cared for each other a great deal.

[buckboard]

So now suddenly Steve's mother says he should dig up the box under the floor boards and that will explain everything??

No one in the what, 30, 40 years they've been in that house has ever stepped on the board and found the box?  In all the years of moving furniture around, kids playing, vacuuming.....   His mother never thought -- in all those years he's questioned just what was going on with her -- to mention the box to him?

[UncleChuck]

Based on next week previews...it appears that the writers have finally run out of principal characters to get kidnapped...So naturally they have an entire middle school dance kidnapped all at once. 

[dwmarch]

Well not bad for a McGarrett/Cath/Mom angst episode. This episode is particularly interesting because the team was going up against CIA Special Activities Division guys (who are drawn from the ranks of Navy SEALS and the like) and they managed to take down the whole compound without resorting to lethal force! Now perhaps my memory is fuzzy (paging BW Manilowe!) but I seem to recall Steve shooting a CIA guy who messed with his mom. But now all of a sudden the CIA Black Ops guys who aren't even supposed to exist are worthy of non-lethal consideration?

Strange wardrobe choices for the team. When the reinforcements showed up Kono and Grover were in winter coats and Mama McGarrett was rocking black leather. I realize Morocco probably gets winter-coat worthy cold at night but I'd imagine they'd be dying of heatstroke in those coats by day. However, props to McGarrett. As soon as Cath shows up he immediately doffs his date-wear and breaks out the cargo khakis.

I guess since 5-0 broke up that death cult and scared that serial killer away it's okay for them to leave their unusually violent island behind while they go fight some Special Ops guys halfway around the world. This show is distant cousins with Star Trek so of course the entire bridge crew goes in the same shuttlecraft.

FWIW I don't think Grover is a dummy and I think he knows exactly who Grace is seeing but wants to see if his son will tell him or not. Now I neither want nor need this plotline but if we're going to be subject to it anyhow, I have a specific hope. I hope Grover is all worried about telling Danny about the kids dating. And Danny eventually finds out (when Grover finally fesses up) and instead of Danny being mad, he's relieved. "Oh, it's your son? Why didn't you say so? I know him and I know he's a good kid. I know I don't have to tell him to act proper because you already did. And I'm so happy Grace isn't dating Little Johnny because that kid is a punk!"

I cried on Chin's behalf. However I am sure the little girl's aunt and uncle will turn out to be notorious bad guys who will obligingly fly to Hawaii for some big score and Chin will be forced to gun them down when they refuse to surrender. After all, since they had a non-lethal week this week, 5-0's got some catching up to do.

[BW Manilowe]

13 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Well not bad for a McGarrett/Cath/Mom angst episode. This episode is particularly interesting because the team was going up against CIA Special Activities Division guys (who are drawn from the ranks of Navy SEALS and the like) and they managed to take down the whole compound without resorting to lethal force! Now perhaps my memory is fuzzy (paging BW Manilowe!) but I seem to recall Steve shooting a CIA guy who messed with his mom. But now all of a sudden the CIA Black Ops guys who aren't even supposed to exist are worthy of non-lethal consideration?

Strange wardrobe choices for the team. When the reinforcements showed up Kono and Grover were in winter coats and Mama McGarrett was rocking black leather. I realize Morocco probably gets winter-coat worthy cold at night but I'd imagine they'd be dying of heatstroke in those coats by day. However, props to McGarrett. As soon as Cath shows up he immediately doffs his date-wear and breaks out the cargo khakis.

I guess since 5-0 broke up that death cult and scared that serial killer away it's okay for them to leave their unusually violent island behind while they go fight some Special Ops guys halfway around the world. This show is distant cousins with Star Trek so of course the entire bridge crew goes in the same shuttlecraft.

FWIW I don't think Grover is a dummy and I think he knows exactly who Grace is seeing but wants to see if his son will tell him or not. Now I neither want nor need this plotline but if we're going to be subject to it anyhow, I have a specific hope. I hope Grover is all worried about telling Danny about the kids dating. And Danny eventually finds out (when Grover finally fesses up) and instead of Danny being mad, he's relieved. "Oh, it's your son? Why didn't you say so? I know him and I know he's a good kid. I know I don't have to tell him to act proper because you already did. And I'm so happy Grace isn't dating Little Johnny because that kid is a punk!"

I cried on Chin's behalf. However I am sure the little girl's aunt and uncle will turn out to be notorious bad guys who will obligingly fly to Hawaii for some big score and Chin will be forced to gun them down when they refuse to surrender. After all, since they had a non-lethal week this week, 5-0's got some catching up to do.

If Steve shot anybody even remotely connected with Doris, it was probably the guy he confronted after he & Danny (ever the supportive wingman & BFF) flew to Cambodia on a lead--either about Doris or Wo Fat's Dad--& found an empty grave. I think that's what you're talking about anyway.

[BW Manilowe]

7 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

You know what's funny? Not just on this show but with a couple of others, I find that I sometimes don't like a character when they're a love interest, but the minute they aren't anymore, I like them.

What I think happens is that once they're no longer the love interest, the writers are forced to make the character more interesting. Here, I liked Catherine, because she wasn't making love eyes at Steve the whole time and acting weepy and trying to get him back. 

It was refreshing for a show that has engaged in some blatant misogyny to have two women in love with the same man be total adults and treat each other with respect. Mop girl's (I call her that due to the mop she wears on her head) understanding of Catherine barging in on their romantic evening was a good way for the show to display her character. It's too bad I don't really care about her or find her at all interesting. I fast forwarded her right when she showed up. Again, she suffers from Love Interest Syndrome. 

Though I will fault Steve for A LOT regarding his selfishness, I can honestly say that him not proposing is not his fault. And Catherine totally would not have quit. She made it clear he should move on. She knew the risk when she walked away. 

I told you! Chin needed his MAN PAIN! There it is, Chin crying again as someone he loves is ripped from his life. 

So, Chin and Adam get kidnapped, and the minute Chin is happy with someone for five minutes, they're taken away. 

I really hope Grover is more savvy than this, because it would be sad for him not to pick up that his son is in full panic mode and totally dating Grace. Looks like they up his part next week to him having scenes with Danny, which will probably lead to an admission.

The box under the floorboards was hilarious. The minute she told him that, I started laughing. This show and secret boxes. I swear. 

When did Chin get kidnapped? I don't remember that. Do you mean Kono?

I remembered Doris hiding (in S3) microfiche about her career, that saved her ass, under Steve's floorboard, but I don't remember her hiding a whole box of stuff, like her diary. I guess she did that offscreen.

[Artsda]

So Steve and Catherine had an airplane goodbye moment in Casablanca. lol Surprised there was no "may be not today, may be not tomorrow" lines.  

[Clanstarling]

On 11/4/2016 at 9:00 PM, blackwing said:

Is that the same actress playing Deserted Island Lady?  I didn't recognise her at all, which speaks volumes as to the impact she has had on me.  She didn't look like the same person.

I didn't either, but then I suffer from BBB (blonde bimbo blindness). I initially thought she was a stranger (possibly an escort) who went to the wrong door.

 

12 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

Didn't the whole series start with Steve's dad and a box full of secrets about Doris?

Yep, it did. As for Doris' box, my impression was that she hid it there before she left the first time. You have to be pretty confident the house is going to stay in the family to do that. I really, really hate the Doris character. I have always liked Catherine though.

I forget - did we always know Steve is the grandson of the original Steve McGarrett? In the awful CGI cameo of Jack Lord, I don't recall there being any sense that he was personally connected to Steve.

I love Chin, but choosing to leave the little girl to be taken away without him being present really bothered me. Sure, it might in many ways be easier (though Chin only referred to it being easier for himself), but I just thought it was wrong. Sweet drawings of happy memories, though, that was killer.

[LizDC]

7 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I forget - did we always know Steve is the grandson of the original Steve McGarrett?

Didn't his grandfather die at Pearl Harbor?  

[anna0852]

The original concept was to make the current Steve the grandson of the first Steve. But that was changed before filming started to be just a straight reboot instead. Our Steve is named for his grandfather, who died at Pearl Harbor and is not connected to the Jack Lord character. 

[fishcakes]

Yes, aside from the bizarre CGI of a few weeks ago, the Jack Lord character doesn't exist as far as this series is concerned. Five-0 didn't even exist until this Steve was tapped by the Governor. For example, in the August March (Ed Asner) episodes, they made March's backstory match the original 5-O story except that instead of getting arrested by Jack Lord's Steve, they had him refer to one of the officers who escorted him to prison 40 years earlier as being named McGarrett, to which Alex O's Steve said something like, "that was my father John." That little bit of retconning made my teeth hurt.

[tvfanatic13]

Oh Chin, I cried with you.

[HurricaneVal]

Count me in as another person who could not associated the cool and kind of awesome deserted island Lynn with stilted, awkward, "cheap escort in a really bad wig" Lynn.  This is not the person I really envision Steve hanging with.  Desert Island Lynn?  Yes, though there wasn't much chemistry there.   Plastic Lynn with plastic hair?  No.  And no matter that he professed that he thought those bangs were cute, there was no sincerity there in those eyes.   Frankly, I think Steve was relieved that Catherine stopped by to drag him off to Morocco.  It was the only way he could get out of a bad, bad date.

Sigh.  The casting department has done a fantastic job on other aspects of this show, but for some reason they really fail at casting girlfriends for our principles.  Well, except for Malia, she was awesome and that actress and Daniel Dae Kim had great chemistry together.  But for Steve and Danny?  I know Catherine was supposed to be Steve's epic romance, but even when they were together they seemed more like close colleagues rather than lovers.  Danny's two girlfriends never really sparked anything on screen.  However, the actress who plays Rachel and Scott Caan had some decent chemistry going on.  I could believe it that they had that affair resulting in Charlie.

Honestly, the best chemistry popping on that screen is between Steve and Danny.  But we get less and less of that these days....

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Our Steve is named for his grandfather, who died at Pearl Harbor and is not connected to the Jack Lord character. 

 

5 hours ago, fishcakes said:

Yes, aside from the bizarre CGI of a few weeks ago, the Jack Lord character doesn't exist as far as this series is concerned.

Thanks. I'd forgotten.

[Princess Lucky]

On 7/11/2016 at 9:52 PM, HurricaneVal said:

Count me in as another person who could not associated the cool and kind of awesome deserted island Lynn with stilted, awkward, "cheap escort in a really bad wig" Lynn.  This is not the person I really envision Steve hanging with.  Desert Island Lynn?  Yes, though there wasn't much chemistry there.   Plastic Lynn with plastic hair?  No.  And no matter that he professed that he thought those bangs were cute, there was no sincerity there in those eyes.   Frankly, I think Steve was relieved that Catherine stopped by to drag him off to Morocco.  It was the only way he could get out of a bad, bad date.

Sigh.  The casting department has done a fantastic job on other aspects of this show, but for some reason they really fail at casting girlfriends for our principles.  Well, except for Malia, she was awesome and that actress and Daniel Dae Kim had great chemistry together.  But for Steve and Danny?  I know Catherine was supposed to be Steve's epic romance, but even when they were together they seemed more like close colleagues rather than lovers.  Danny's two girlfriends never really sparked anything on screen.  However, the actress who plays Rachel and Scott Caan had some decent chemistry going on.  I could believe it that they had that affair resulting in Charlie.

Honestly, the best chemistry popping on that screen is between Steve and Danny.  But we get less and less of that these days....

I agree with all of this, except I have a great fondness for Autumn Reeser, and I really liked her with Danny, so I'd add her to the list of good casting (though I do agree the chemistry wasn't 100% there, that little relationship was cute, to my eyes).

But I think the writing is the main issue. The actress who plays Lynn has been great on other shows (Falling Skies, especially) and she was fine (well, the one other time I saw her) until this episode, when she was given terrible lines and a tragic wig and nothing to do. And I always loved Lauren German (and she's also fine, or even great, on other shows, like Lucifer, for instance), but she was written so horribly, save for some fun moments with Danny, of all people. The writers tend to write most of the "love interests" horribly, even when the actresses would allow them to do more with a character.

That said, some of the casting really is baffling. Danny's girlfriend, for example, who can't act and is way too young. No offense to that actress, but she would be better suited to play a one-off guest character, something like a dead guy's weeping girlfriend for one or two scenes. I don't know how she was picked to play a main character's love interest (are they still a thing? I haven't watched in a long time, before this season).

Anyway, I love Christine Lahti so I did enjoy those moments, but I thought the episode was kind of underwhelming for a "monumental" occasion like this. Next week (or this week, lol) looks more fun.

[Raja]

On 11/4/2016 at 9:45 PM, Mittengirl said:

I think we all knew within seconds that Grover's son is dating Grace.  Was I the only one that thought it odd that Grace referred to him as "Mr. Grover"?  Rather than Lt. Grover?  It just sounded off to me.

 

It is Captain Grover, they call him Lou because that is his name not the old slang for Lieutenant before "L.T." started to be used more often.

[jhlipton]

On 11/5/2016 at 0:45 AM, Mittengirl said:

I would think that leaving the country at the drop of a hat is not really a good way to make your case for custody of a smalll child.

But I am sure she will be back sooner or later, once we find out aunt and uncle are Bad People.  'Cause you know they are.

Of course they are!  The son of a friend of a cousin of a small-time pot dealer (hyperbole!) had their number on his phone and == gasp -- he's a DEFENSE attorney (we know they're all scum because the police never arrest an innocent person!)

On 11/5/2016 at 1:37 AM, BW Manilowe said:

It wasn't that the character of Catherine was poorly received.

 

Any time a new female character was introduced there were posts of "She's taking time away from our core characters!!!!"  (No such posts about Jerry, Lou, Max or the Loathsome Twins...)   There was a lot of hatred for Catherine as soon as she became a regular character.

On 11/5/2016 at 10:37 PM, dwmarch said:

This episode is particularly interesting because the team was going up against CIA Special Activities Division guys (who are drawn from the ranks of Navy SEALS and the like) and they managed to take down the whole compound without resorting to lethal force!

Well, it helps when the super-impenetrable prison is guarded by the Keystone Kops.

1) One of the guys who works there, and has full knowledge of everything Steve & co need goes waltzing around in public with no awareness of his surroundings, and gives up full information after 5 minutes of "torture"
2) The super-impenetrable prison has a generator that's not deep inside the prison, but outside the walls where any moron can cut the power.
3) When the power does go out, do they send any extra soldiers to guard the command post?  Oh, c'mon, we don't need to do that!
4) They capture McGarrett but can't even secure him to a chair without screwing up
5) Two civilians take out at least 2 SEALs.  OK, then.

It was pretty clear early on that this super-impenetrable prison was a joke.

Oh, and Steve -- if you're on a mission, you don't just give up on that mission when you get rescued, so why would your mom?  Rescuing Yao Fat should have been part of Steve's mission too.

 

On 11/7/2016 at 9:43 AM, Clanstarling said:

Sweet drawings of happy memories, though, that was killer.

Yuck.  Those were adult's ideas of what a kid's drawing should look like. 

All-in-all, a kind of dumb episode.  I know they wanted Catherine and Doris for the 150th, but in many ways, last week's was better.

[morriss]

I find it hard to believe Doris would get the upper hand in the fight against Steve.  How old is she supposed to be?  Probably in hers 60's........lol 

[BW Manilowe]

5 hours ago, morriss said:

I find it hard to believe Doris would get the upper hand in the fight against Steve.  How old is she supposed to be?  Probably in hers 60's........lol 

We've never been told how old Doris is supposed to be. Though I don't think early 60's is entirely unbelievable for a CIA operative--especially since Doris seems to keep herself in good shape, which I think would be important in a job like that.

In real life, Christine Lahti--who plays Doris--is 66. In the show, the tombstone of Steve's dad, John McGarrett (which has been seen in the show more than once), shows the life dates of March 15, 1942-September 20, 2010 (the show's premiere date; the character was murdered in the Pilot). So he was 68 when he died.

I think Doris was probably younger than John. I just don't know how much younger.

[Raja]

10 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

We've never been told how old Doris is supposed to be. Though I don't think early 60's is entirely unbelievable for a CIA operative--especially since Doris seems to keep herself in good shape, which I think would be important in a job like that.

In real life, Christine Lahti--who plays Doris--is 66. In the show, the tombstone of Steve's dad, John McGarrett (which has been seen in the show more than once), shows the life dates of March 15, 1942-September 20, 2010 (the show's premiere date; the character was murdered in the Pilot). So he was 68 when he died.

I think Doris was probably younger than John. I just don't know how much younger.

It seems unbelievable to me, despite the Criminal Minds, NCIS use of senior agents the general mandatory retirement age for federal law enforcement is 57 years old with a limited case by case authority by an agency director to push it up to 60 or the OPM getting involved to push it up to 65. For the Doris character being portrayed as the outsider it would seem strange if "The Agency" pulled hoops to hold a door and spot open for her, assuming the CIA plays by the same rules as FBI, Secret Service, the real NCIS..........

 

Local law enforcement has different policies as seen on The Closer/Major Crimes franchise with its squad all qualified to retire, save one member.

[jhlipton]

On 11/10/2016 at 4:12 PM, morriss said:

I find it hard to believe Doris would get the upper hand in the fight against Steve.  How old is she supposed to be?  Probably in hers 60's........lol 

As seen in this episode, anybody can take down a SEAL!

[BW Manilowe]

On November 8, 2016 at 10:30 PM, Raja said:

It is Captain Grover, they call him Lou because that is his name not the old slang for Lieutenant before "L.T." started to be used more often.

Raja-- With all due respect, Mittengirl was asking why Grace used the title "Mr." for Grover, when she should've known (& probably did know) that his professional title was "Captain", since Grover works with her Dad, Danny. I just put it down to forgetful writing, or nobody caught the "Mr." vs. "Captain" error. (Shrugs)

[Raja]

2 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Raja-- With all due respect, Mittengirl was asking why Grace used the title "Mr." for Grover, when she should've known (& probably did know) that his professional title was "Captain", since Grover works with her Dad, Danny. I just put it down to forgetful writing, or nobody caught the "Mr." vs. "Captain" error. (Shrugs)

Unless there has been an edit it was why Mr and not Lieutenant. To which I replied instead of Lieutenant it should have been why not Captain instead of mister because that was his rank.

[BW Manilowe]

37 minutes ago, Raja said:

Unless there has been an edit it was why Mr and not Lieutenant. To which I replied instead of Lieutenant it should have been why not Captain instead of mister because that was his rank.

Yep. I guess we're all pretty much saying the same thing: Why did Gracie call Grover "Mr." instead of use his job title, "Captain"? Especially when she knows he's a police captain since A) He works with her dad, Danny & B) She's met him before--at least, but presumably more than, twice (at the football party when Kono & Adam came back from hiding out from the Noshimuris' Yakuza enemies, & at a Valentine's Day cookout that was at the Grovers house... I think before the character of Will had ever been cast)? Maybe I read your post too fast. Apologies.

[LotusFlower]

When you were a tween or young teenager, did you call your friends' parents "Mr. and Mrs. so-and-so," or by their rank/some other official title?  The former of course!  I don't care that Grace's father is a P.O. - she's a young girl, and her friends' parents are just that.  Btw, she calls "Commander" McGarrett "Uncle Steve."

[Mittengirl]

Kids these days seem to not use any sort of title when addressing elders.  But I would suspect that when Grace was first introduced to Grover, Danny would have said "Captain" not "Mister".  So, to me, that would have been the most likely way she would have continued addressing him.  Unless told otherwise, of course.  But since we weren't there, we will never know.  It just sounded odd to me.

To be fair, I am about 35 years older than Grace and did refer to my father's Navy friends by "rank last name" and the same with my uncle's police co-workers.  And we're weren't a terribly formal family.

[BW Manilowe]

1 hour ago, Mittengirl said:

Kids these days seem to not use any sort of title when addressing elders.  But I would suspect that when Grace was first introduced to Grover, Danny would have said "Captain" not "Mister".  So, to me, that would have been the most likely way she would have continued addressing him.  Unless told otherwise, of course.  But since we weren't there, we will never know.  It just sounded odd to me.

To be fair, I am about 35 years older than Grace and did refer to my father's Navy friends by "rank last name" and the same with my uncle's police co-workers.  And we're weren't a terribly formal family.

I'm 53 & from a medical family, which wasn't that formal either. But every non-related adult who I wasn't told I could call "Aunt", "Uncle", or by their first name, for whatever reason, was always addressed as "Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms." or by their professional title (Dr., or whatever). Heck... I still don't call our neighbors by their first names because they've never explicitly told me I could, even though I've been living next door to them since I was 12 or 13! We were told, growing up, we couldn't use adults' first names unless we had permission.

"Mr. Grover" from Grace, instead of "Captain Grover", definitely sounded weird to me, & like maybe there was a writing mistake they didn't catch.

And they did it again! The scene from this week where Will tells Danny he's Grace's boyfriend is up on YouTube, so I watched it again. I didn't catch it during the ep, but in the scene Will calls Danny "Mr. Williams" instead of "Detective Williams" like everyone else does (I'm pretty sure Danny's rank is "Sergeant", but everyone just uses "Detective" as his professional title). What kinda bug do the writers have about the kids not using their dads' colleagues' proper professional titles?

Edited November 12, 2016 by BW Manilowe
To add some info.

[Raja]

4 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

I'm 53 & from a medical family, which wasn't that formal either. But every non-related adult who I wasn't told I could call "Aunt", "Uncle", or by their first name, for whatever reason, was always addressed as "Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms." or by their professional title (Dr., or whatever). Heck... I still don't call our neighbors by their first names because they've never explicitly told me I could, even though I've been living next door to them since I was 12 or 13! We were told, growing up, we couldn't use adults' first names unless we had permission.

"Mr. Grover" from Grace, instead of "Captain Grover", definitely sounded weird to me, & like maybe there was a writing mistake they didn't catch.

And they did it again! The scene from this week where Will tells Danny he's Grace's boyfriend is up on YouTube, so I watched it again. I didn't catch it during the ep, but in the scene Will calls Danny "Mr. Williams" instead of "Detective Williams" like everyone else does (I'm pretty sure Danny's rank is "Sergeant", but everyone just uses "Detective" as his professional title). What kinda bug do the writers have about the kids not using their dads' colleagues' proper professional titles?

The Detective versus Sergeant thing is normally dependent upon the department. They are separate ranks and responsibilities in most places yet wear the same rank insignia in uniform and often receive the same pay in many cases. So if the detectives on The Closer put on their uniforms Detective Sanchez and Sergeant Gabriel would both have Sergeant stripes on their LAPD blues.  Back in season one when 5-0 all went in uniform for their private graduation ceremony for Officer Kono Detective Williams was in his Newark PD uniform with Sergeant stripes.

In the Army a similar thing happened with the Specialist rank in comparison to a Corporal, while they wore different insignia they are at the same pay both E-4 and a Corporal is considered a Non Commissioned Officer, a junior leader, while a Specialist is an other rank as the British say. So a detective may be like a Specialist as in Baltimore if Homicide Life on the Street and The Wire are to be trusted on this internal Baltimore PD organizational trait. A part of the other ranks with just a different responsibility. Or a detective may be part of the command structure, a Corporal equivalent and pass orders to the patrol cops when necessary.

 

So the big question is do the  children of police address their parents co-workers like military brats do? Not being on base housing with far fewer cops and a far greater percentage of civilians around maybe not.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Raja

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

So the big question is do the  children of police address their parents co-workers like military brats do? Not being on base housing with far fewer cops and a far greater percentage of civilians around maybe not.

As a brat, I can relate to using the rank. I would be curious to know if those who were raised in cop families did the same (those who weren't already conditioned to use rank by being brats).

[anna0852]

I think the title thing varies from person to person. My best friends father was a doctor but I called him Mr, since that was how she introduced us.

[blackwing]

It never occurred to me that she called him "Mr. Grover" instead of "Captain Grover".  What I got out of that exchange was that she called him anything at all.  It depends on upbringing of course, but I have seen too many kids these days (who are between 10 and 12, not much younger than Grace is) either 1) not calling the parents of their friends anything at all (just a "hello" or "thank you", instead of a "thank you Mr. Jones") or 2) calling them by their first names since that's what their parents call them ("Jack, can I have some water please").  Sadly, I think many parents these days in Lou's shoes would love to get the equivalent of a "Mr. Grover".

[Sake614]

Im in my 50s and when I was a kid, I called most of my friends parents 'mom' or 'dad' or by their first names. And they did the same with my parents.  We all kind of adopted each other's parents. Although I do have a long time friend who still call my mom 'mrs.' which I always found odd since I called her mother 'mom.' Lol! But her father was always 'Mr.' even now I can't bring myself to call him by his first name. I just wasn't as close to him as I was to her mother.

[lh25]

On 11/4/2016 at 9:00 PM, blackwing said:

s that the same actress playing Deserted Island Lady?  I didn't recognise her at all, which speaks volumes as to the impact she has had on me.  She didn't look like the same person.  With that bad blonde wig and dark eyebrows, she looked cheap and trashy.

I agree, and I think that white dress didn't help.  It didn't fit her well and it looked to me like they were trying to contrast her with Catherine as much as possible.

[Brian Cronin]

I don't get why they had Catherine say that she would have said yes. What's the point of that, narratively? Doesn't it just open up the closure they just established in the episode with the whole "Are you happy with your job that would preclude you from settling down with me?" "Yes." "Okay then."

I'd be totally down with a "Leave Catherine away until the show ends and then she and Steve can get back together," but if they're not going that route (and I know AOL just said the other week that he doesn't think Steve would ever get back together with Catherine), then just close it up. Steve is getting to the age where a guy like him (a very traditionally minded guy) would really be considering settling down. If not with Lynne, then SOMEone soon, please. I'm no Lynne fan, but I really think someone like Steve would be likely to settle down with whoever he was dating at this point in time, weird wig or not. 

[ganesh]

On 11/4/2016 at 10:00 PM, blackwing said:

 "What would you have said if I had asked you?"  "I would have said yes."   Steve knows he screwed it up.  She would have given up her CIA life for him.  

I don't get why they had Catherine say that she would have said yes. What's the point of that, narratively? Doesn't it just open up the closure they just established in the episode with the whole "Are you happy with your job that would preclude you from settling down with me?" "Yes." "Okay then."

I don't believe that for a second either. She's exactly like Doris. Very unfair of her to put that on Steve imo because there's no way. 

I'm basically like, "Doris needs help". "Yeah no." Steve needs massive therapy. He's pushing 40, no? Not for nothing, no one wants to marry some guy who is still being led around by the nose from his mother. 

I also don't care what the kids call the adults. I call my mother by her first name because I'm an only child and I'm a brat so IDGAF. Everyone has called my father Mister FirstName growing up and even the students he's around now. I actually think calling non-relatives "uncle" is condescending. 

[fishcakes]

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

I actually think calling non-relatives "uncle" is condescending.

It's a cultural thing, common in Hawaii and common among some but not all Asian nationalities. I'm Japanese and it's not something we do, but I have Chinese and Vietnamese friends who call my mom "auntie." It's a way to both be respectful to her as their elder and show affection.

[ganesh]

That may well be but the white people are doing it to so I'm not getting the feeling that TPTBs are steeped in cultural heritage as much as it is a TV trope. And it still strikes me as condescending regardless. I don't even have students use my proper title. 

[Mittengirl]

Ganesh, just curious, but to whom do you find it condescending - the adult or the child?   

I can see why some cultures do it.  It is less formal than Mr. or Mrs., but not as casual as using just the first name.  But, to me, it only makes sense for relationships that start when the child is very young and the relationship is very close - I.e. day-to-day personal interactions.  

I find Grace referring to Steve, and Kono especially, as auntie and uncle odd. (Have we ever heard her refer to Chin as "uncle"?) Grace was not raised in a culture that does that, I would guess.  She has only known them since she was about 7 years old and she doesn't seem to spend that much with them casually, certainly not Kono anyway.  

[ganesh]

28 minutes ago, Mittengirl said:

 But, to me, it only makes sense for relationships that start when the child is very young and the relationship is very close - I.e. day-to-day personal interactions.  

I'll concede that, and that's not really what we're seeing on the show.

Quote

Grace was not raised in a culture that does that, I would guess.  

That was my point basically. Whether it's Hawaiian culture or not isn't relevant. Jerry is saying "uncle Jerry" to Danny's kids. It's weird. 

I just don't like kids being told what they have to call someone. It should feel organic so the kids are comfortable. High school kids call my father (sub teacher) Mister Firstinitial. They like it because it makes them feel cool, and he likes it because it makes him relatable. 

[Sake614]

I also called my friends' aunts and uncles 'aunt' and 'uncle.' It's a term of endearment and I don't see anything condescending about it. We all 'adopted' each other's families. If an adult didn't like it, they would have said something. YMMV..

[ganesh]

Nope. 

Quote

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by ganesh