S03.E04: San Junipero

[zxy556575]

This one was a departure for sure. It started out as a futuristic puzzle set within a tribute to 80s movies but ended as a straightforward romance. At least afterwards I didn't go to bed frightened of what the world will become.

The montage of Yorkie trying on different clothes and personalities was pretty fun. She looked great as a Robert Palmer girl!

[benteen]

Great episode, I was very happy with how it turned out.  Stronger performances by the lead actresses.

The technology involved reminded me of the book Ready Player One (which Spielberg is adapting in 2018).

[Amethyst]

Never seen this show, but I'm a big fan of Gugu, so I tuned in.  The aesthetics were excellent and the acting was top-notch.  Once I understood where the episode was going, I got into it more.  The end visuals of the center were amazing.  

Kelly's speech at the end was a little unfair.  She knew that Yorkie didn't willingly choose the path that life set her on.  Is it really that surprising that San Junipero would appeal to someone like Yorkie, who spent most of their adult like trapped in a bed?

The ending felt a little half-baked.  Kelly's speech implied that she felt it was unfair that she "live on" in San Junipero when her daughter and husband didn't have the chance to live in real life.  And she despised all the brain dead drifters like Wes and the other people in the Quagmire.  Yet the next scene, she and Yorkie are reuniting like nothing ever happened?  I'm guessing her love for Yorkie overrode her doubts, but it would have been nice for a scene (or even a line) illustrating that Kelly had changed her mind.

What I had expected was Kelly dying (for real) and reuniting with her family in the afterlife, and Yorkie staying in San Junipero and meeting someone else.

[zxy556575]

The pronunciation of Junipero bugged a little. As a Californian, I'm used to it being you-NIP-ero.

[weightyghost]

As I talked to someone about the reasons I wasn't feeling this episode, it brought out a bunch of questions

They should have fleshed out the year jumping - how can Yorkie jump from year to year searching, but there still be the same people in the same locations? Like, the guy at the video games who showed up in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. So does the whole town shift with the yKears? But it seemed like people can choose when to go. Are they all just magically choosing the exact year at the exact same time? 

I also felt the ending a bit "we need a happy ending". Kelly and Yorkie knew each other for 6 weeks? Meeting once a week? And Kelly changes her mind over the chance of meeting up with her husband of 40+ years? 

I loved the visuals, and the music, and the shifting between decades. But I felt like the story wasn't terribly thought out. But it seems like this one is the favourite of the season. 

[Negritude]

Happy endings in Black Mirror? Naw man, lol. This took way too long to get going and once it did there wasn't even something sinister behind it to make it worthwhile. I should hope that in a future where you can choose your afterlife there would at least be enough medical advances to not have people in Yorkie's real life situation. Priorities people, but then again we have all kinds of crazy technology now and people still in wheelchairs, etc so there's that.

[snowwhyte]

Yeah, i was pretty bored by this. I was trying to figure out what the deal was but it did take a while to get going and just didn't grab me like other episodes. There really is a real tonal difference to the American based episodes. They seem colourful while the British episodes are both literally and figuratively darker.

[zxy556575]

3 hours ago, weightyghost said:

Like, the guy at the video games who showed up in the 80s, 90s, and 00s.

I was expecting some kind of payoff with that guy but I guess not.

[Zima]

Worst episode of the season, for me.  I hated the happy ending. 

[rozen]

I really liked this episode, and there were plenty of screwed up undercurrents to munch on. The final image was creepy as hell, maybe because I've been watching Mr Robot too much*. They are one malfunction, or cyber attack, away from having "heaven on earth" turned into the exact opposite. How do you suss out a malfunction in a digital copy of a human soul? Can you correct it? Do you simply eliminate the buggy ones and pretend it never happened? What legal rights (exactly) does a cyber citizen have? Can you clone one of the cartridges that houses them? If so, what rights does a clone have, I mean it's not the "real" thing, right?  I can imagine the game executive from the second episode absconding with a few of these to test his VR software ad infinitum, no worries about the person dropping dead on you while still behaving neurologically like a human being. What's to stop the hackers from the 3rd episode becoming even more adventurous and pursuing rich "bad guys" well into their digital afterlives?

I also found Yorkie's adamant love of San Junipero just moments after upload suspicious. I mean what, really, is to stop this company from forcing compliance on all these digital residents, getting them to ensnare and draw in visitors to commit to the real thing? This can't be cheap, and you can enforce good PR through all your customers with no one being the wiser. And what's to stop one's children and grandchildren from deciding the maintenance cost for eternal retirement is too high, and deciding to pull the plug on them? 

I found it equally disturbing that even in this Uber Tech future, LBGTQIA is still so distasteful that women still spend their whole lives hiding it, and their parents will shove them in a hospice to rot for 40 years rather than face it. There was lots of upbeat 80s music covering it up, but this episode (imo) is one of the most screwed up of the first four. 

*And have read Surface Details by Iain Bank, which had a sideplot with the same idea, but digital hell.

Edited October 23, 2016 by rozen

[Charlesman]

1 hour ago, rozen said:

 

I found it equally disturbing that even in this Uber Tech future, LBGTQIA is still so distasteful that women still spend their whole lives hiding it, and their parents will shove them in a hospice to rot for 40 years rather than face it. There was lots of upbeat 80s music covering it up, but this episode (imo) is one of the most screwed up of the first four. 

 

I took it that Yorkie's accident happened when she was 21 in about 1980, so before the Uber tech future and widespread acceptance of LBGTQIA rights, and she chose that time period as one she remembered. It seemed obviously more accepted in the future. I think that's why Kelly was confused that Yorkie was so sensitive about being watched, Yorkies reference point was in the gay-hate, AIDS crisis early 80s and she was in a coma when acceptance started to occur, didn't know things had changed so much. Kind of a Rip Van Winkle. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by Charlesman

[Capricasix]

19 hours ago, benteen said:

Great episode, I was very happy with how it turned out.  Stronger performances by the lead actresses.

The technology involved reminded me of the book Ready Player One (which Spielberg is adapting in 2018).

Also bears a resemblance to the Matrix, and even Neuromancer.

[natyxg]

13 hours ago, weightyghost said:

As I talked to someone about the reasons I wasn't feeling this episode, it brought out a bunch of questions

They should have fleshed out the year jumping - how can Yorkie jump from year to year searching, but there still be the same people in the same locations? Like, the guy at the video games who showed up in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. So does the whole town shift with the yKears? But it seemed like people can choose when to go. Are they all just magically choosing the exact year at the exact same time? 

I also felt the ending a bit "we need a happy ending". Kelly and Yorkie knew each other for 6 weeks? Meeting once a week? And Kelly changes her mind over the chance of meeting up with her husband of 40+ years? 

I loved the visuals, and the music, and the shifting between decades. But I felt like the story wasn't terribly thought out. But it seems like this one is the favourite of the season. 

She wasn't gonna meet her husband because he was dead and nowhere anyway. So she figured she would die and be nowhere as well. I think the point was that they felt bad over going on without the other and their daughter.

So, I did like this episode. I liked the music, the 80s feel and thought both Yorkie and Kelly were quite charismatic. I was fine with the idea of meeting in VR and all of that, I can believe that it was really them in VR when they met there before they died. But the idea of dying so you could pass on and become a permanent resident of the VR world bothered me. I don't buy it. Simply because this is not a magic show where someone literally took their souls and put them elsewhere. The VR versions of Yorkie and Kelly were just avatars of the originals. You kill the originals and... the originals are just dead. Sure, VR Kelly and VR Yorkie feel like themselves because they have their own memories and remember dying and all that jazz. They will feel like they died and went on to stay in their heaven, but the real ones, the original ones, are just dead. This same concept used to drive me nuts when I watched Caprica and that religious nut offered the other religious nuts the chance of going to virtual heaven after a suicide bombing using some resurrection program that put their avatars in V world. I kept wanting someone to point out that who cares if an avatar of me is in virtual heaven, I will be fucking dead. I can buy the idea that we are all information and if that info can be copied they can make a virtual copy of us or whatever, but it is just that, a copy. Original us would just be dead when we died.  So I keep reading about this episode having a happy ending and I keep thinking eeehhhh.

Now, if rather than technology the v world was something else and I could buy that their souls really went on to stay in San Junipero together, then I guess I really might have found it sweet. And it would have had to have been in some other show and not Black Mirror, lol.

[Miles]

I really liked this episode. It's nice to just see a love story with a happy ending for once. The mistery and great characters kept me entertained throughout.

I think the scene with the servers in the end was supposed to be eerie and that's the feeling I got at first. But thinking about it, what's so scary about it? Sure, they are one major malfunction or fire away from dying, but isn't the same true for us? They got a ton of extra years, living life young and healthy. Even if it ends all after a month. That is one month more than they would have gotten otherwise.

On 24.10.2016 at 7:08 AM, natyxg said:

I don't buy it. Simply because this is not a magic show where someone literally took their souls and put them elsewhere.

Since there is no soul, that isn't a problem.

Ofcourse it is an age old question, "when are you still you"? You have none of the same cells you had when you were born or even 10 years old, yet you'd probably still consider yourself to be the same person. CGP Grey and kurzgesagt made very good videos about this conundrum:

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Miles

[Demian]

Quote

She looked great as a Robert Palmer girl!

Everyone looks great as a Robert Palmer girl -- the makeup is, like, designed to make anyone look fantastic.

Quote

Worst episode of the season, for me.  I hated the happy ending. 

Why do you hate joy?  Or do you just hate Belinda Carlisle....

[natyxg]

I can buy that the ones in San Junipero are "them", I can buy that our personalities are information/memories and that if that is copied the copy is really me and feels like me, in a way. But we're talking about organic matter vs. information inside a computer, which is what San Junipero is, as shown in the end. I can buy that they could somehow copy the information from their brains, but not that they could suck it out and leave just a shell behind, and put that into the computer, because a computer has info inside, just info. So for me the originals just died and experienced death like anyone else. And their virtual copies, who feel like them for real, got their happy ending. I don't know if I'm explaining myself.

I mentioned the soul thing because if this was a show about magic, then usually when they suck out someone's soul they are doing exactly that, sucking out their soul, so it's literally the same person. This is scifi/technology and I didn't buy the technology in the way the show wanted me to, I guess.

3 minutes ago, Demian said:

Why do you hate joy?  Or do you just hate Belinda Carlisle....

That was suuuch a good use of a song. And I've had it stuck in my head for days.  Loved that montage.

[Demian]

Quote

So for me the originals just died and experienced death like anyone else.

Hee!  Stop stomping on the fantasy a lot of other people would like to maintain.  It was first and foremost a beautiful little love story.  (With some killer costuming choices.)  Can't we leave it at that?

[Miles]

8 minutes ago, natyxg said:

I mentioned the soul thing because if this was a show about magic, then usually when they suck out someone's soul they are doing exactly that, sucking out their soul, so it's literally the same person. This is scifi/technology and I didn't buy the technology in the way the show wanted me to, I guess.

Why? When they suck out the soul in a show about the magic, the organic matter dies too. There is litrally no difference.

Ofcourse this whole thing is hard to grasp, our brains are not built for it. We unconciously believe that there is something more to us than a biological machine, that has it's parts replaced all the time, but there is no evidence to support that unconcious feeling.

[Demian]

By the way, I think they set the initial scene in 1987 in part so they could avoid this rather obvious musical choice from the following year.  Then again, they actually went with "Girlfriend in a Coma," so whatever.

[natyxg]

Just now, Miles said:

Why? When they suck out the soul in a show about the magic, the organic matter dies too. There is litrally no difference.

Ofcourse this whole thing is hard to grasp, our brains are not built for it. We unconciously believe that there is something more to us than a biological machine, that has it's parts replaced all the time, but there is no evidence to support that unconcious feeling.

What I mean is that we're talking about different genres with different rules. So if I am watching a show about magic the rules are different and inside that world, because it is magic, when they suck a soul out they are literally sucking out a soul, blablabla because that is the world of that genre. The soul would be the literal essence of the person that is literally taken from one place (their body) to the another place or whatever.

But this is scifi, so I expect it to have more, I do not know, basis on reality. And I failed to see how they could jump from organic matter to a machine and literally keep the same consciousness, as in something literally left their bodies and literally was pushed into the machine/a new reality. At most they could copy information, imo, so for me it was like there was a split when they died and their virtual versions became their own persons in San Junipero, so to speak, and the originals just died and experienced that like everyone else.

So it comes down to how everyone understood the technology, I guess. I wasn't convinced. But I know I'm in the minority, and I don't mind.

[natyxg]

13 minutes ago, Demian said:

Hee!  Stop stomping on the fantasy a lot of other people would like to maintain.  It was first and foremost a beautiful little love story.  (With some killer costuming choices.)  Can't we leave it at that?

Jejeje. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The music was killer, and I thought the script was pretty neat, with the details. I might rewatch it later just to catch all the plants and pay offs they sneaked in.

[Miles]

2 minutes ago, natyxg said:

At most they could copy information, imo, so for me it was like there was a split when they died and their virtual versions became their own persons in San Junipero, so to speak, and the originals just died and experienced that like everyone else.

Yes, they could only copy information. But how is that different than all of your cells in your body beeing replaced by copies over time? That is what we call life. Do you feel less yourself because most of your cells aren't the same you had 7 years ago?

What is the difference between that happening over years or over seconds? We are all theseus ships, this wouldn't change anything, it would just accellerate the process.

[Demian]

Quote

We are all theseus ships, this wouldn't change anything, it would just accellerate the process.

I get the reference, but goddamn.  Can't you just enjoy the joy?  Just once?  In the middle of this otherwise thoroughly joyless television series?

Edited October 26, 2016 by Demian

[natyxg]

Just now, Miles said:

Yes, they could only copy information. But how is that different than all of your cells in your body beeing replaced by copies over time? That is what we call life. Do you feel less yourself because most of your cells aren't the same you had 7 years ago?

What is the difference between that happening over years or over seconds? We are all theseus ships, this wouldn't change anything, it would just accellerate the process.

The difference being that cells copy themselves in our bodies as part of biological processes and etc. Here we are talking about a jump from an organic body to a machine, where the info is computer information. So when I say they can only copy I mean they can only copy like taking a photo and scanning it into a computer. When that happens the person photographed remains the same because organic and computer are different things. So I don't see how the consciousness that remains in San Junipero is literally the same one they had in their organic bodies, so much so that they are literally still the same aka the originals literally left their bodies and never died.

Yes, the girls in San Junipero in the end felt like themselves and in a way they were, but not really. Not to me.

[Demian]

Dude.  Lighten up.

[Demian]

P.S.:  Isn't there something from Saint Augustine about everyone in Heaven being around 25?  Or am I totally misremembering some random and minor tenet of Catholicism?

[Primetimer]

If you could spend the rest of eternity reliving one year over and over again, which one would you choose? That's probably not the takeaway message Black Mirror was aiming for with S03.E04, but dammit, it's what we're going with.

View the full article

[Jael]

Aw, this was sweet. Way off brand for Black Mirror, but lovely, and my goodness is Gugu Mbatha-Raw insanely magnetic.

The afterworld didn't seem to be terribly well thought-out (how do you jump from year to year? how would they know where to meet and when, like how did she know Kelly was coming back at the end? while you're still in your body how can you have fully tactile VR experiences? what if people's idea of fun has nothing to do with arcade games, bars or The Quagmire?) but as a framework, it served the story.

[zxy556575]

2 hours ago, Jael said:

what if people's idea of fun has nothing to do with arcade games, bars or The Quagmire?

They have a killer house right on the beach!

I think it was Tara who mentioned on the EHG podcast that the thought of "living" forever is horrible. I'd  never choose the San Junipero solution, either. We saw the residents drink but I'm not sure if they eat. Do they have money, is there a library, a gym, can they travel, is there TV or any entertainment other than sex and bars? Is every day exactly the same for thousands of years? Yikes, I say.

[Duke2801]

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 1:10 AM, Amethyst said:

Never seen this show, but I'm a big fan of Gugu, so I tuned in.  The aesthetics were excellent and the acting was top-notch.  Once I understood where the episode was going, I got into it more.  The end visuals of the center were amazing.  

Kelly's speech at the end was a little unfair.  She knew that Yorkie didn't willingly choose the path that life set her on.  Is it really that surprising that San Junipero would appeal to someone like Yorkie, who spent most of their adult like trapped in a bed?

The ending felt a little half-baked.  Kelly's speech implied that she felt it was unfair that she "live on" in San Junipero when her daughter and husband didn't have the chance to live in real life.  And she despised all the brain dead drifters like Wes and the other people in the Quagmire.  Yet the next scene, she and Yorkie are reuniting like nothing ever happened?  I'm guessing her love for Yorkie overrode her doubts, but it would have been nice for a scene (or even a line) illustrating that Kelly had changed her mind.

What I had expected was Kelly dying (for real) and reuniting with her family in the afterlife, and Yorkie staying in San Junipero and meeting someone else.

Yeah, I really enjoyed this episode - especially the end (the song was perfection.  But it did seem a pretty abrupt departure from Kelly's freak-out about how she just simply CAN NOT EVER EVER live in SJ to .... living in SJ.  Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled that she made that choice, but yeah, it seemed a radical shift in her thinking.

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 11:04 AM, weightyghost said:

As I talked to someone about the reasons I wasn't feeling this episode, it brought out a bunch of questions

They should have fleshed out the year jumping - how can Yorkie jump from year to year searching, but there still be the same people in the same locations? Like, the guy at the video games who showed up in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. So does the whole town shift with the yKears? But it seemed like people can choose when to go. Are they all just magically choosing the exact year at the exact same time? 

I also felt the ending a bit "we need a happy ending". Kelly and Yorkie knew each other for 6 weeks? Meeting once a week? And Kelly changes her mind over the chance of meeting up with her husband of 40+ years? 

I loved the visuals, and the music, and the shifting between decades. But I felt like the story wasn't terribly thought out. But it seems like this one is the favourite of the season. 

She was never going to meet up with her dead husband. He was gone-for good. Faded to black.  So her choices were "fade to nothingness" OR "live in a beautiful down with a beautiful (well, they downplayed her looks here, but Mackenzie Davis is really very pretty) and be - literally - happily ever after." 

[Charlesman]

However you want to say it works, remember, that once you leave San Junipero, you retain the memories you had inside. So, in the constructed world of the show, it works that way. However you want to fanwank it happens, when you re-enter the real-world meatspace, the San Junipero events are part of your memory. Whether that's a 'soul' or 'a computer writing to your brain like a hard drive' or something else, it did happen in the episode.

[natyxg]

4 hours ago, Jael said:

Aw, this was sweet. Way off brand for Black Mirror, but lovely, and my goodness is Gugu Mbatha-Raw insanely magnetic.

The afterworld didn't seem to be terribly well thought-out (how do you jump from year to year? how would they know where to meet and when, like how did she know Kelly was coming back at the end? while you're still in your body how can you have fully tactile VR experiences? what if people's idea of fun has nothing to do with arcade games, bars or The Quagmire?) but as a framework, it served the story.

I think they could do whatever you wanted. I mean, they could change clothes at will. Plus, the town seemed like a full city, so I imagine there were other things to do. But it's easier to show happiness by showing people dancing and stuff, I guess. It's a very cliché thing shows do.

1 hour ago, lordonia said:

They have a killer house right on the beach!

I think it was Tara who mentioned on the EHG podcast that the thought of "living" forever is horrible. I'd  never choose the San Junipero solution, either. We saw the residents drink but I'm not sure if they eat. Do they have money, is there a library, a gym, can they travel, is there TV or any entertainment other than sex and bars? Is every day exactly the same for thousands of years? Yikes, I say.

I've thought that too. I WOULD choose San Junipero, though, but I imagine eventually I would get bored and want to die there too. Life is not the same if there is no conflict and nothing to fight for. But it's sort of like fairy tale endings, you aren't supposed to thing about such things. Happy ending and that's it.

7 minutes ago, Duke2801 said:

Yeah, I really enjoyed this episode - especially the end (the song was perfection.  But it did seem a pretty abrupt departure from Kelly's freak-out about how she just simply CAN NOT EVER EVER live in SJ to .... living in SJ.  Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled that she made that choice, but yeah, it seemed a radical shift in her thinking.

I found it a bit abrupt too. But I figured the theme of the episode was about second chances (which in Yorkie's case was more like a first chance). Kelly had a second chance at life, but she felt guilty about taking it because of her husband and daughter. So once she was able to accept the second chance and not feel guilty about it anymore, she was ready to go. It was just sort of rushed as a montage, I guess.

[AlwaysWatching]

Wow.  Lost my post. I'm trying to post this to see if it works. 

Much more simply put, I felt the partying bar scenes were appropriate for both what Yorkie would be looking for (extremely sheltered life up to her accident, and for Kelly for the need to party and forget.  That's why the time jumps and it always being a bar scene didn't bother me. This was just where they were when they started falling in love.

Kelly's reason for not wanting to stay in SJ, at first, totally made sense to me.  I also thought they did a good job of showing her changing her mind as her body was consumed by cancer.  She did say, I forgot her exact words,  while looking out at the water (?) near her end that she wanted to see, in a sense, what comes next.

I loved this episode. It will be one of my favorite short stories for a long time.  The heart has so many ways to find love.

Forgive me if my other post shows up.  I'm not sure if this one will. eeeee

[benteen]

The Quagmire looked like something out of Mad Max.

I wonder if people who get bored of San Junipero are given the option to check out?  Maybe like every 10 years you are given an option of continuing or moving on.

Edited October 26, 2016 by benteen

[Miles]

13 hours ago, natyxg said:

The difference being that cells copy themselves in our bodies as part of biological processes and etc. Here we are talking about a jump from an organic body to a machine, where the info is computer information. So when I say they can only copy I mean they can only copy like taking a photo and scanning it into a computer. When that happens the person photographed remains the same because organic and computer are different things. So I don't see how the consciousness that remains in San Junipero is literally the same one they had in their organic bodies, so much so that they are literally still the same aka the originals literally left their bodies and never died.

What makes you think that the copying process isn't perfect? They never gave any indication to that effect. What is the difference between your conciousness residing in a machine made of flesh or one made of metal?

If you copy a file on your computer and delete the old one, do you consider that file not to be the same? What if you cut and paste? Cutting and pasting probably feels different, than copying and deleting, like you moved the file, but in reality it's not. The computer copies the file and deletes the old one in the background, it doesn't actually get moved.

Also, if you are a gamer, I recommend "Soma" for exploring this topic further.

5 hours ago, lordonia said:

I think it was Tara who mentioned on the EHG podcast that the thought of "living" forever is horrible. I'd  never choose the San Junipero solution, either.

But you don't have to stay forever. You can get out whenever you want. I'd choose the San Junipero solution in a heartbeat. If I get bored after a few hundred years I can still end it.

[zxy556575]

8 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

If you could spend the rest of eternity reliving one year over and over again, which one would you choose? That's probably not the takeaway message Black Mirror was aiming for with S03.E04, but dammit, it's what we're going with.

View the full article

Great article, Philip! Thanks.

[glitterpussy]

I thought Yorkie said it "wasn't forever" if you chose to go there after you died?

I thought the ending seemed happy but was kinda dark--like technology killed heaven, or something. Instead of eternity in paradise, or reuniting with your loved ones, or whatever the particular belief is, you get an endless loop stuck on an island, frozen in time.

[Charlesman]

58 minutes ago, benteen said:

The Quagmire looked like something out of Mad Max.

I wonder if people who get bored of San Junipero are given the option to check out?  Maybe like every 10 years you are given an option of continuing or moving on.

 

27 minutes ago, glitterpussy said:

I thought Yorkie said it "wasn't forever" if you chose to go there after you died?

I thought the ending seemed happy but was kinda dark--like technology killed heaven, or something. Instead of eternity in paradise, or reuniting with your loved ones, or whatever the particular belief is, you get an endless loop stuck on an island, frozen in time.

 

 

Yes, Yorkie stated that Kelly could try it out for a while and still decide later to opt-out 'permanently', as it was. Anyone could unplug any time, even the dead users.

[Jeffurry]

If my eternity even mentions baseball I'll know I did something truly hateful when I was alive.

[kdm07]

This is probably one of my favourite episodes of television ever. Just really well done in almost every aspect.

[cmfran]

This one seems to be divisive, but I really enjoyed it. Watched last night and I'm still thinking it about it today. 

On a different note, the music clearances for this ep must have cost a fortune.

[benteen]

I imagine that music rights must have cost a pretty penny but thank God for Netflix money!

[Slovenly Muse]

On 2016-10-26 at 2:51 PM, Miles said:

What makes you think that the copying process isn't perfect? They never gave any indication to that effect. What is the difference between your conciousness residing in a machine made of flesh or one made of metal?

There's a big difference. Maybe I can add to what natyxg is saying. When you are a "visitor" to San Junipero, you are alive inside your organic body. Your consciousness is seated in your organic brain, and that is where your memories are stored. You are a different KIND of being. Despite the posts up top, I don't think anyone is saying that "passing over" to San Junipero is like literally putting your SOUL inside a computer, but it's also not as simple as saying "souls don't exist, we are just the product of our memories, so why can't that all be copied digitally?"

Living in an organic body is a huge part of life. There's no way that a digital copy of a person can actually BE that same person. Right now, for example, I live in an organic body. My memories and sensory experience of the world are all determined by my brain. But my brain is a living thing that can be flooded with different types of chemicals and hormones that can cause me to feel certain ways. If I'm hungry, or in pain, or PMS-ing, or eight months pregnant, or high on drugs, or releasing endorphins, that will effect my mood and possibly cause me to make choices that I would not under different circumstances. That's what life, what personality, IS. Our daily choices and daily lives are really a reaction to stimuli from an organic world. A VR world cannot replicate those same chemical impulses. And our memories are the same way. My memory is not objectively accurate. It changes over time, and can depend deeply on emotions. Think of a fight you had with someone where both of you adamantly believed the other was the instigator. Or the person you loved deeply, with whom your treasured every moment, until they broke your heart and you began looking back on your time with them feeling very differently, seeing in hindsight little signs that may or may not have actually been there at the time. Memory is notoriously unreliable and suggestible, and depends on emotion and brain chemistry. CAN a computer replicate human brain chemistry? How can a person living in an organic body continue to BE the same person when that organic chemistry is stripped away and they are reduced to the pure "ones and zeros" that is only the RESULT of that chemistry? How can that digital copy live in a meaningful way, grow, change, make choices, experience emotion, when the internal stimulus (brain chemistry) is now determined by a computer program instead of real life? How can memories saved to a computer shape you in the same way memories saved to your imperfect and highly suggestible brain do? If emotion depends on brain chemistry, and brain chemistry is determined by a computer, then San Junipero really IS a trap. Because what corporation would allow its digital citizens (customers) to experience the kind of stimuli that would make them choose to discontinue their service? Or discourage "visitors" from buying it? People would cease having a genuine experience once they "passed over" and begin having an experience dictated down to their very emotions by the corporation who now houses them. Authentic choices would no longer be possible. That's not real, and it's not life. Digital citizens might be people (sentient beings), but they cannot be the SAME people they were when they were alive. Regardless of whether or not souls exist, I just can't believe that the complexity of a human identity can be transferred to and maintained seamlessly by a hard drive.

Hmmm. I sought to bring a bit of clarity to this point, and I'm not sure I succeeded. This is a VERY difficult subject to wrap a complex but limited human brain around. I suppose what I am trying to say is that I don't believe that "passing over" to San Junipero really means living forever. I think it's just a comforting lie. But what lives on is not you. It might pick up where you left off, but it will never really be "you."

And that's just scratching the surface of the myriad implications of this episode. Possibly the most existentially-complicated episode of the series.

Yikes.

[millennium]

I loved everything about this episode.   I was 25 in 1987, so yeah, all of it rang true.   Life was fun back then.   Bright lights, big city.  The music was great, styles and fashion were over the top, and the future seemed limitless.   I had a great job, the economy was booming, there was nowhere to go but up.  

This episode captured the look and feel of the 80s better than any filmed attempt I have ever seen.  The music playlist made all the difference.   I mean, Robbie-fucking-Neville, lol.

My take on Kelly's last-minute change of mind is that she opted for happiness rather than oblivion.  Who knows if it was the right choice?   What if by choosing San Junipero she cheated herself out of something truly marvelous?   Or maybe she didn't.   Maybe her conscious was uploaded to the cloud, but her soul -- and Yorkie's soul and all the rest -- actually moved on to the afterlife.   In any event,  they did leave an escape clause -- you can check out anytime.

I felt no sinister vibe in the final scene.  Actually it seemed reassuring.   The facility was clean and shiny, all the individual consoles blinking strongly to indicate vibrant activity.   And there were so many people hosted there that it seemed like a giant community.

It was nice to have a happy ending for a change, especially since from a 1987 perspective we're living in a dystopian future right here and now

[ExMathMajor]

On 10/30/2016 at 6:42 AM, millennium said:

I loved everything about this episode.   I was 25 in 1987, so yeah, all of it rang true.   Life was fun back then.   Bright lights, big city.  The music was great, styles and fashion were over the top, and the future seemed limitless.   I had a great job, the economy was booming, there was nowhere to go but up.  

This episode captured the look and feel of the 80s better than any filmed attempt I have ever seen.  The music playlist made all the difference.   I mean, Robbie-fucking-Neville, lol.

My take on Kelly's last-minute change of mind is that she opted for happiness rather than oblivion.  Who knows if it was the right choice?   What if by choosing San Junipero she cheated herself out of something truly marvelous?   Or maybe she didn't.   Maybe her conscious was uploaded to the cloud, but her soul -- and Yorkie's soul and all the rest -- actually moved on to the afterlife.   In any event,  they did leave an escape clause -- you can check out anytime.

I felt no sinister vibe in the final scene.  Actually it seemed reassuring.   The facility was clean and shiny, all the individual consoles blinking strongly to indicate vibrant activity.   And there were so many people hosted there that it seemed like a giant community.

It was nice to have a happy ending for a change, especially since from a 1987 perspective we're living in a dystopian future right here and now

Agree with all of this. I was 22 in 1987, fresh out of college, and even though there was a stock market crash I was like, whatever, I don't have any stocks, I'm just going to party. (And yes, that was me jamming to "C'est La Vie" in my living room...)

One thing I liked about Kelly's senior facility is that everybody had their own personal caretaker. I want to believe their society takes good care of old people without thought to the cost, unlike today. Also, I would have followed young Kelly anywhere.

Logically, sure, some of it didn't make sense, but considering that it took me at least a week to recover from episode 3, this episode was like a balm to my troubled soul.

Also, yeah:  The Handmaid's Tale came out in 1985 and damn if we're not heading straight in that direction today.

Edited November 2, 2016 by ExMathMajor

[Kathemy]

<Doux Reviews> <San Junipero>

My two cents. My site mate Josie is reviewing the rest.

[Miles]

On 30.10.2016 at 2:34 AM, Slovenly Muse said:

CAN a computer replicate human brain chemistry?

I made a really long post answering you and then the board ate my reply. Does this board save drafts somewhere?

Well, the short version: You seem to think a simulation can't possibly be that good. I think it can and will. If humans will still be around at that point is a different question.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Miles

[romantic idiot]

On 10/26/2016 at 11:43 AM, Demian said:

Hee!  Stop stomping on the fantasy a lot of other people would like to maintain.  It was first and foremost a beautiful little love story.  (With some killer costuming choices.)  Can't we leave it at that?

Nope. What the hell is a love story / happy ending doing in my Black Mirror? Ew. Now I can't brace myself because it might turn out well. This has been a really disturbing season. 

On 10/27/2016 at 1:22 AM, benteen said:

The Quagmire looked like something out of Mad Max.

I wonder if people who get bored of San Junipero are given the option to check out?  Maybe like every 10 years you are given an option of continuing or moving on.

Yes, Yorkie said that anyone who changed their mind about staying could leave easily (the ease being demonstrated by the snap of a finger)

On 10/27/2016 at 1:53 AM, glitterpussy said:

I thought Yorkie said it "wasn't forever" if you chose to go there after you died?

I thought the ending seemed happy but was kinda dark--like technology killed heaven, or something. Instead of eternity in paradise, or reuniting with your loved ones, or whatever the particular belief is, you get an endless loop stuck on an island, frozen in time.

Not really.  I don't think the show said anything like that. It's just us trying to malign even benign technology because it is Black Mirror. (IMO of course).

On 10/30/2016 at 4:34 AM, Slovenly Muse said:

There's a big difference. Maybe I can add to what natyxg is saying. When you are a "visitor" to San Junipero, you are alive inside your organic body. Your consciousness is seated in your organic brain, and that is where your memories are stored. You are a different KIND of being. Despite the posts up top, I don't think anyone is saying that "passing over" to San Junipero is like literally putting your SOUL inside a computer, but it's also not as simple as saying "souls don't exist, we are just the product of our memories, so why can't that all be copied digitally?"

Eh,  I don't see that point of this entire argument. Either you believe that technology can impact the soul, or that it can't. If you believe that it can, then there's no reason to believe that it can touch the soul but not enough to keep a bit of it around so that the soul can be with a mate. If you believe that it can't, then it can't, in which case Kelly's soul is reborn/in heaven/in oblivion etc. and there's a digital copy hanging around somewhere having fun. Which doesn't harm anyone. Seems to be a win/win. So again, I ask - what the hell is this episode doing in this series?

Edited November 16, 2016 by romantic idiot

[Slovenly Muse]

1 hour ago, romantic idiot said:

On 2016-10-29 at 5:34 PM, Slovenly Muse said:

There's a big difference. Maybe I can add to what natyxg is saying. When you are a "visitor" to San Junipero, you are alive inside your organic body. Your consciousness is seated in your organic brain, and that is where your memories are stored. You are a different KIND of being. Despite the posts up top, I don't think anyone is saying that "passing over" to San Junipero is like literally putting your SOUL inside a computer, but it's also not as simple as saying "souls don't exist, we are just the product of our memories, so why can't that all be copied digitally?"

Eh,  I don't see that point of this entire argument. Either you believe that technology can impact the soul, or that it can't. If you believe that it can, then there's no reason to believe that it can touch the soul but not enough to keep a bit of it around so that the soul can be with a mate. If you believe that it can't, then it can't, in which case Kelly's soul is reborn/in heaven/in oblivion etc. and there's a digital copy hanging around somewhere having fun. Which doesn't harm anyone. Seems to be a win/win. So again, I ask - what the hell is this episode doing in this series?

Right, I see what you mean. Let me clarify. I was suggesting that souls DON'T exist (so your options are to wink out of existence or upload yourself to a computer, and there, hypothetically, IS no heaven where Kelly's soul might otherwise be romping), but that even though you may not have a "soul" that can be digitized, that doesn't mean that your memories are the sum total of what makes you "you." Simply recording and transferring your memories to a computer does not provide the authentic experience of living in an organic body, where unpredictable chemical reactions can shape your moods, behaviours, and even memories. I was suggesting that a digitized copy of yourself can't ever really be you, just a computer program that looks and sounds like you, that remembers things you remember, but is completely under the control of the computer housing you. From the way this show likes to make a point about people becoming corrupted by technology, what I'm suggesting is that a corporation that could store dead people's templates on a computer like this would be in control of their every thought, mood, and emotion. They likely would not allow any "resident" of SJ to experience the kind of feelings that would lead to them requesting to be removed (presumably there is a cost to keeping them around), and would be programmed to try and convince "visitors" to pass over and join them. In effect, the personalities uploaded to SJ could become nothing but advertising agents for the corporation that runs it. "Heaven" as a for-profit business. But then, that's because I'm always looking for the darker takeaway from any Black Mirror episode, and I agree, this one didn't quite satisfy in that regard.

[romantic idiot]

Hmm. I see your point. I guess I was saying you are dead, so it's not like you care. And your children get comfort that they pay for. I get you though.