S07.E01: The Day Will Come When You Won't Be

[Scribbles]

9 hours ago, Duke2801 said:

- LOL - BUT I still don't see Season 7, episode 1 as "torture for the sake of torture."  I saw it as "torture for the sake of moving the plot along."   

And there it is, the comic book serial formula of writing...  It will appeal to some and not others.  I said earlier, the whole thing played out like comic panels on screen and seemed to ignore the multiple dimensions film offers for storytelling.

Put that aside, and remember none of this really happened it is a story being told.  Someone (several someones) thought it would be great tv to show two men brutally beaten till their heads were zombie chow, a young teen forced to lay flat while his father is forced to chop off body parts and for good measure a guy seen living in the previous episode hanging in a noose off a bridge having his corpse pulled apart in High Definition.  But wait, none of that was enough....we needed dream sequences of the whole gang each being battered.  I am sorry, but even the show runners and Kirkman admit they poured on the gore, torture and such to drive home the point.  If a chunk of the audience feels they went too far and crossed the line it just shows they used poor judgment about where that line is.  They chose to show us what we were shown, our choice now is whether we want to watch any more of it.

[EllenC]

12 hours ago, diebartdie said:

 

NOW Rick and all his people have a chance to actually STOP being so destructive. STOP burning every place to the ground. STOP tearing it up and fleeing into the night. NOW, at last, they can finally lay their burdens down! Rick and everyone can just stop, stop scheming, stop killing, stop hating (well ok never going to stop hating Negan). NOW they can really build up their community. Unfortunately for them they are not building it up out of love but rather due to the gun bat held to their head but regardless, they have to build it up as much as possible and that part of it at least is a good thing.

Things had to change. The way Rick and his people have been doing things since day 1 has always gone horribly wrong. Rick and the gang may be a bit slow to learn a lesson but they are smart and once learned, they know enough to try something new. Even if that something means letting Negan be the boss. We'll see if the boss man offers more than JUST the threat of painful death. It already looks as if Negan's group is really really good at dealing with walkers so maybe that is the one benefit of working for him?

I agree with consensus that overall the story probably would have worked a bit better if Abe had been shown to have gotten the bat at the end of last season and then Glen got the surprise bat this season but what is done is done. I see a LOT of potential with the story now. I've always believed in the promise of ASZ for our people and Ive never wanted to see them on the road yet again. The story now offers the possibility of stability and growth.

I wish you and LadyMustang65 were writing this show, 'cause ... 

Edited October 26, 2016 by EllenC

[Wryly]

No. Negan has to die. Slowly. After everything he holds precious is taken from him, and the power he was so confident he held is pried from him piece by piece, and his people turn on him and make him crawl naked through the mud as they jeer and laugh, and Rick uses Lucille to break both his legs and the hatchet to cut off both his arms, and then his broken torso can be sat in a wheelchair and left on the street corner, powerless and alone, to screech his vain monologues at the indifferent passersby, begging them to remember his fallen glory and bygone power. But no one listens anymore.

That has to happen. THEN Rick and everyone can stop killing. Happy, happy, zen, zen, bring Morgan in to talk about chakras and inner peace or something. Everyone can take an anger management class and do some yoga.

[peach]

13 minutes ago, Wryly said:

No. Negan has to die. Slowly. After everything he holds precious is taken from him, and the power he was so confident he held is pried from him piece by piece, and his people turn on him and make him crawl naked through the mud as they jeer and laugh, and Rick uses Lucille to break both his legs and the hatchet to cut off both his arms, and then his broken torso can be sat in a wheelchair and left on the street corner, powerless and alone, to screech his vain monologues at the indifferent passersby, begging them to remember his fallen glory and bygone power. But no one listens anymore.

That has to happen. THEN Rick and everyone can stop killing. Happy, happy, zen, zen, bring Morgan in to talk about chakras and inner peace or something. Everyone can take an anger management class and do some yoga.

Ah, yes.  "To the pain."

"Your ears you keep and I’ll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, “Dear God! What is that thing,” will echo in your perfect ears. That is what to the pain means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever."

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Scribbles said:

If a chunk of the audience feels they went too far and crossed the line it just shows they used poor judgment about where that line is. 

no it shows that a chunk off the audience didn't like what they did. They can't please everyone and shouldn't try to, they should set their line where ever they want.

[AwesomO4000]

13 hours ago, diebartdie said:

Because Glen taught us to believe in a better tomorrow that we can only find together. Because Abe taught us we're stronger together when we protect each other. Because Rick taught us we will find a way forward together. I think we as an audience have internalized these messages and we all believe in our heart of hearts that we ("we" meaning Rick's people + the audience) will not only overcome but we will emerge stronger. I think too that as horrific as it was, it was a lesson Rick HAD to learn otherwise, he was sliding faster and faster into the pit of evil.

Rick and co really seemed to believe that they were now and forevermore the top dogs. They murdered Negan's people in their sleep at the satellite office (by the way, why was their still power at that satellite office?) Just flat out walked in there and stabbed most of them in the head AS IF every single one of those people were Termites when in reality, every one of those people were pretty much just like Rick's group (as far as we know of course). Really only Negan has been shown to be utterly depraved but Negan has one thing that The Guv never had. Negan (so far as has been shown) is honest. He straight up tells people, "give me your shit, scavenge more shit for me or die" instead of the weird front The Gov put on. In other words, Negan isnt trying to wine and dine you, he's raw, unfiltered and completely full of himself.

Rick had to be given a wakeup call before he turned the Alexandrians into something similar to The Saviors. Seriously, Rick already had the attitude of "if they dont give us what we want, we'll just take it" how is that different from Negan except in degree? With Rick's shitty attitude, how long before he pitched a fit that Hilltop hadnt given ASZ "enough" eggs, butter and cheese and then went up to Hilltop and started ripping out some throats until he got "sufficient" eggs? I mean it looked to me that Rick wasn't far off from that so here's Negan to show him right up close and way too personal what exactly that character growth brings you.

For me, I don't think I could see Rick turning into Negan, because Rick has surrounded himself with people who will disagree with him and pull him back when he needs it. He has Michonne - who actually punched him out not too long ago when he got out of hand. He has Carl - who even though he is young, Rick does include him in decisions and Rick listens to him. He has Daryl and Maggie and Carol. These are independent people who will not follow Rick anymore if they don't believe in what he is doing. Negan surrounds himself with "yes" men and women and forces them to be so. To me, the dynamic is completely different. So while I understand your point, I never was worried that Rick would turn into anything like Negan.

And while killing Negan's people was awful, as I explained above, in my opinion, I also saw why it was probably necessary. Daryl's run ins with just peripheral people of Negan's showed him and Sasha and Abraham (I think they were who was with him) exactly what they could expect when Negan showed up at their door... which he inevitably would. And Hilltop told them what would happen - that Negan would kill someone in their group as an example. And as I said - who would Rick be willing to sacrifice to enter into an "agreement" with Negan? Who would he he be willing to be let taken hostage as soon as Negan wasn't satisfied? Who would he be willing to kill or steal from in order to get the "payment" Negan requires? If there was a chance that Rick could avoid it by trying to kill Negan first, I think Rick had to take it. He might have brought Negan down on their group faster than it would have happened, but it would have happened eventually regardless.

Quote

NOW Rick and all his people have a chance to actually STOP being so destructive. STOP burning every place to the ground. STOP tearing it up and fleeing into the night. NOW, at last, they can finally lay their burdens down! Rick and everyone can just stop, stop scheming, stop killing, stop hating (well ok never going to stop hating Negan). NOW they can really build up their community. Unfortunately for them they are not building it up out of love but rather due to the gun bat held to their head but regardless, they have to build it up as much as possible and that part of it at least is a good thing.

But can they? They aren't equipped right now to give much to Negan. So likely they will have to risk their own to forage for things, if not outright steal from others they might find on the road. They won't have much time to rebuild their own community, because much of their resources will be going to Negan. In my opinion, they now have more burdens than ever - now they have to worry about who Negan might kill and they have to worry what they'll have to do to give Negan what he wants. They might actually have to be more destructive than ever if they have to steal from others.

And they already had plans to build things up anyway. It's not like Rick hasn't done it before at the prison. Even Eugene had plans with his ammunition making idea. (Now likely all that ammunition will go to Negan.) Unfortunately their plans got derailed by the various disasters they had to face recently.

Even if Rick did have to "learn a lesson," in my opinion, Negan is not the one who needed to teach it. For me, Negan has nothing to show or teach that I can see. And if it was just to show Rick what he shouldn't become... okay Negan's done that. Can we shoot him now? Please?

Quote

Things had to change. The way Rick and his people have been doing things since day 1 has always gone horribly wrong. Rick and the gang may be a bit slow to learn a lesson but they are smart and once learned, they know enough to try something new. Even if that something means letting Negan be the boss. We'll see if the boss man offers more than JUST the threat of painful death. It already looks as if Negan's group is really really good at dealing with walkers so maybe that is the one benefit of working for him?

I doubt it. If Negan had anything to offer, he wouldn't have to "keep the peace" by killing and maiming people. Other groups would agree to work with him willingly. And Rick's group can kill walkers just fine. I'm not expecting Negan to offer anything but annoyance, and I will be very disappointed if the show tries to paint him as some purveyor of wisdom. Or even worse "generosity." The king granting his servants some kindness. Especially if he tries to win Carl over that way... and the show has it work. Gross. No. Just no.

I personally can't wait for this Negan storyline to be over with.

11 hours ago, Timetoread said:

I wonder if we are going to get a surprise that Negan is a Robin Hood.  He takes from survivors to give to those who otherwise wouldn't.  That he's mean and brutal because that is the only thing that makes these disparate bands fall into line, until they are down with the plan.  And the horrible henchmen are his wet works team but that there is a whole society of people who never see this sort of treatment.  Like the Guv.  Just speculating.

And I still contend that if Negan wanted to help people really, he would be making those gardens he scoffs at. He wouldn't even have to do it himself... he could make his people do it for him. They even have heavy equipment to make it easier. But nope that isn't as cool or ego boosting as humiliating others and taking their things and making them in turn take things from others.

And meanwhile Negan also takes things from places that have actually been trying to make a society for themselves and working at it and kill their people if they don't give him the food and supplies that they worked hard to grow and produce.

Even if Negan is supplying an entire orphanage of blind and handicapped children with the supplies he has gotten, this still wouldn't remotely condone anything he is doing here - for me anyway. Especially since with a little hard work and planning he might actually be able to get the supplies without having to pulverize heads and provide "trophy" photos for the wall. As @AngelaHunter pointed out, Negan's group waste a lot of time and resources that could better be used for other, more productive things than building roadblocks and other elaborate intimidation tactics, but Negan chooses to put his efforts - such as they are - into furthering his campaign of intimidation and violence.

[Scribbles]

2 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

2 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

no it shows that a chunk off the audience didn't like what they did. They can't please everyone and shouldn't try to, they should set their line where ever they want.

no it shows that a chunk off the audience didn't like what they did. They can't please everyone and shouldn't try to, they should set their line where ever they want.

You are responding to me and I agree with you,  They are free to do what they want and viewers are free to respond as they choose.  That is the way it works.  Personally, the violence and gore will  be an issue if I have little Negan's at my door Halloween night, because celebrating gore and violence makes me sad for where we all are in life.  I am not entertained by violence and gore, but that was not my issue with the episode (except to the extent it overwhelmed the great efforts of the actors and took me out of the moments.)

My issues with the episode include:

1.  I just don't think it would take so much to make Rick set his hubris aside.  Kirkman and gang apparently do, and that makes me dread what comes next.

2.  They chose to hype that the episode would justify the cliffhanger, and IMHO it just didn't.  Instead, it felt like more toying with the audience, contrived for impact.  It was hard to get beyond all the spectacle and connect.

3.  They extended the time of the episode and it felt like that was done to squeeze in any time at all mourning with the characters who remain.  Things happened, people didn't.

4.  Something I still can't articulate well just left me out of synch with Maggie.

5.  All shows should tread lightly with flashbacks, dream sequences and so forth.  Done poorly they take you out of the moment and are off putting.  They didn't work for me in this episode.

6.  This will sound cold but knowing what lies ahead in the comics, this episode gave me a taste of the comics on screen and left me not wanting more.  Kirkman has moments of inspired story, but he also has many moments that just make me roll my eyes and disconnect.  I was already a bit doubtful about the direction ahead, this episode just added more doubt.

7.  I think Negan was written without layers and it is a shame because he could have been more than that.  JDM did great with what he had to work with, I fault the writing and production choices.

There is more, but the jest of it all is the choices they made about how to tell the story fell flat with me despite A plus performances by the actors.  As I said before, I am on the fence about watching, and that is a huge shift from being excited for the next episode.  The person I watched with has already made other plans for Sunday nights because he hated the episode and it was a last straw with TWD for him, so I have that to consider as well.

[Gobi]

11 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

That never occured to me since I've never kept score of ethnic origins of people who died, but Abe, not a visible minority, did bite the dust too.

 

I know. The show has killed off a lot of non-minority characters, to be fair. There are, however, a lot of people here and elsewhere who have expressed the opinion that minority characters are underrepresented and more likely to die, with some justification. So, the  post was a take on that.

[ghoulina]

12 hours ago, Wryly said:

I've heard this guy praised before but have no idea which parts of the writing he's responsible for.

Darabont was the one who first found the comic and wanted to turn it into a show. He was previously best known for movies like Shawshank Redemption and The Green Mile. He was in talks with NBC, but they declined and AMC ended up picking it up. He wrote the pilot and was the show runner for the entire first season. I can't recall if he actually had anything to do with the first few episodes of season 2, but I know he was replaced as show runner in 2011. There were issues over the budget being reduced. Darabont ran this show like a movie and that's what made it so beautiful in that first season. Seeing where it is today, it's ridiculous (IMO), that they fought him over budget. 

Darabont is also responsible for bringing Melissa McBride, Laurie Holden, and Jeff DeMunn on board. In fact, I believe it was also rumored that the reason Dale was killed off so early was because DeMunn had issues with Darabont being fired. 

I think Gimple WAS the best show runner since Darabont was fired, but he's catering too much to Kirkman now. I loved what he did with Season 4, but seasons 5 and 6 have been mostly disappointing. 

[ByTor]

14 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

That never occured to me since I've never kept score of ethnic origins of people who died, but Abe, not a visible minority, did bite the dust too.

I'd like that too, but I'm not sure the "all's well that ends well" thing is even possible, at least for this generation of our ZA survivors, who I would imagine can't let go of the life they had pre-ZA. For Carl's generation who will have no real memories of that former life, yes. Earlier on this show reminded me in some ways of Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" which I found spell-binding in spite of being depressing and having no happy ending.

This is why I wasn't shocked about Carl's defiant attitude toward Negan about the southpaw question, the poor kid's already used to living with this horror and was forced to grow up awfully fast.  Poor Judith and Gleggie (assuming he/she is born), they won't know any other way of life.

[Redcookie]

Serious question, and please don't throw an ax at me because I didn't read all posts: there was an ax, or hatchet, on top of that RV. Was I seeing things? Could Ricky not have just grabbed it and gotten back in the RV?

seriously, did anyone else note this?

[ByTor]

I just saw this post from @Enigma X in the "live" thread.  Maybe THIS is what will end the ZA!

Quote

Are the Walkers in the background chomping on popcorn? Did Negan bore them to a second death? 

[diebartdie]

2 hours ago, Redcookie said:

Serious question, and please don't throw an ax at me because I didn't read all posts: there was an ax, or hatchet, on top of that RV. Was I seeing things? Could Ricky not have just grabbed it and gotten back in the RV?

seriously, did anyone else note this?

Negan tossed the hatchet up there and then told Rick to "get me my hatchet" and shoved him out the rv into the smoke swathed herd.

[Lady Iris]

One: Where's a sonsabitchin' zombie horde when you need one? There were a ton of people out there, car lights on & Negan yappin' away. There's always zombies lurking in the woods wherever they are and yet NONE, not one stinkin' zombie made an appearance where it might've done our group some good? I call bullshit on that!!!

Two: I can take that that the writers had to kill two guys to beef it up, make it worth the while and amp up the drama, and blah blah blah. But did they have to make it so because of Daryl's completely understandable outburst that Glen was made to die??? Are they deliberately trying to make the base hate Daryl and fuck around with us because, well, hell, we didn't get enough of that last year? *resumes with my old man yelling at clouds outburst in my head*

[Juliegirlj]

Jeffrey Dean Morgan is a scrawny ass. Rick was a cop, and trained in apprehending an aggressive subject, as well as being a proven badass. I counted at least three times that Rick could have overpowered Negan. 

Negan's followers are obviously sheep, and had Rick returned in the RV and announced that  his orders were to gather his clan and return to Alexandria, then I doubt they would have objected. Then they could have regrouped, and decided their next plan of action. I'm not a hater, and wanted to love the episode, but just felt it wasn't written true to the nature of the characters. 

TV isn't reality, obviously, but one reason I loved this show is the depth of character development but that seems to have taken a back seat to shock value. 

[Ocean Chick]

Quote

 But did they have to make it so because of Daryl's completely understandable outburst that Glen was made to die??? Are they deliberately trying to make the base hate Daryl and fuck around with us because, well, hell, we didn't get enough of that last year?

I'm assuming they chose Daryl because he's the only character they have that won't be universally judged and hated for this action.  There's enough Daryl/NR fans out there that will find some excuse to forgive him.  And they assume the rest of the fans will eventually forgive him once the other characters do.

[JackONeill]

On 10/25/2016 at 3:33 PM, ByTor said:

Perfect summary of why I despise Rick and never saw him as "the good guy" or "our hero."  That being said, as much as I was rooting for Rick to be taken down a peg or two, seeing him in the "chop off Carl's arm" scene was hard on me, I can't imagine how I'd feel if I actually liked him.

I mostly agree with you, but remember, Daryl, Abe and Sasha had that earlier run-in with the Saviors on the road. Plus, the Hilltop people (mostly Jesus) filled Rick's head with how bad the Saviors are (even though he didn't tell them ENOUGH about the Saviors). Yes, Rick overreacted as he tends to do, but I still blame Jesus more than Rick.

but I think they crossed the line when they killed people in their sleep. There were other ways that could have been written, instead of the most cold-blooded and heartless of ways. I think that is fault of the writers. They lack skill and finesse.

Edited October 26, 2016 by JackONeill

[ByTor]

1 minute ago, JackONeill said:

I mostly agree with you, but remember, Daryl, Abe and Sasha had that earlier run-in with the Saviors on the road. Plus, the Hilltop people (mostly Jesus) filled Rick's head with how bad the Saviors are (even though he didn't tell them ENOUGH about the Saviors). Yes, Rick overreacted as he tends to do, but I still blame Jesus more than Rick.

but I think they crossed the line when they killed people in their sleep. There were other ways that could have been written, instead of the most old-blooded and heartless of ways. I think that is fault of the writers. They lack skill and finesse.

Good points, but my distaste for Rick has gone on through pretty much the entire series, it's not limited to his recent shenanigans.

[Soobs]

The episode reminded me of a D.H. Lawrence quote "The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.” Of course that would still be true even after the ZA.

The dialogue on this show has never been the greatest but I was acutely aware of that watching Negan's scenes. The actor did what he could but if we have to watch this guy for more than one season, it's going to be tough with all the blah blah blah.

I have always thought of Rick as not the best leader but the best that they've got. For me, that makes the show more interesting than if he made perfect decisions every time. It seems more true to life, I guess.

[callmebetty]

4 hours ago, ByTor said:

This is why I wasn't shocked about Carl's defiant attitude toward Negan about the southpaw question, the poor kid's already used to living with this horror and was forced to grow up awfully fast.  Poor Judith and Gleggie (assuming he/she is born), they won't know any other way of life.

Carl still has a little of pre-Zombie memories in him, but his formative years have been this new life. I liked his defiant attitude because I ran down all the things that have happened to him that I wish he could have told Negan.

I've been shot in the stomach/torso and lived.

I had to kill my mom so she wouldn't become a zombie.

Been attacked by a crazy man who blew up are safe haven.

Thought my sister was dead, thought my dad was dead, ate a huge ass can of pudding

Cant seem to get rid of this hat

Got almost raped

Watched my dad rip a man's throat out, then gut like a fish the man who almost raped me.

Been in a lame ass teenage love triangle and then had my eye shot out . 

Now I just watched you meat tenderize the heads of two people I considered family.

Don't get me started on all the fucking walkers I've had to deal with. 

And I'm leaving a whole lot of other shit out.

So what the fuck is a southpaw ?

[peach]

15 minutes ago, callmebetty said:

And I'm leaving a whole lot of other shit out.

Hipsters tried to eat me.
 

[Mu Shu]

I got Dale's ass killed.  Also some other guy related to Herschel.  Oh, and I shot a fucking kid in cold blood.  

Edited October 26, 2016 by Mu Shu

[peach]

17 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

I got Dale's ass killed.  Also some other guy related to Herschel.  Oh, and I shot a fucking kid in cold blood.  

And then everybody had to make a big deal about it, and I threw my dad's badge RIGHT IN THE DIRT!  Okay, Negan?  You're gonna have to cut off more than my arm, bitch.

[ganesh]

Reading all that, I would be very interested in if CDB plotted most of the season to take out Negan, and in the end, it's Carl who just takes advantage of the opportunity and offs him. Which is entirely plausible to me. 

From what I saw on the show, Negan considered Carl merely a pawn to break Rick; first with 'shooting his other eye out', and then of course with the arm chopping routine. Given that I don't think Negan has much more than 4 brain cells that can calculate strategy (separating Daryl is good strategy, but I couldn't tell if that was Negan's intent), he's probably overlooking Carl as an actual, contributing adult now. 

[peach]

Maybe Rick's really going to put his tail between his legs now, and Carl's going to get pissed.  And throw his badge in the dirt again.

[Timetoread]

18 hours ago, Wryly said:

I've heard this guy praised before but have no idea which parts of the writing he's responsible for.

The scene where Negan almost gets Rick to chop off Carl's arm hit me harder than both deaths combined. I knew the writers were going to gut punch us with brutal deaths for shock value, so when it happened, it felt obligatory and I was kind of numb. Sort of "let's get this over with." At this point every villain who is introduced has to kill someone important just to prove their villainous villainy.

I wasn't as prepared for "chop off your son's arm or everybody dies." The situation was not in itself terribly original, but Lincoln's acting was superb and set it apart. By the time he's wailing and lifting the ax, I could barely watch. Talk about humiliating. Carl being brave and telling Rick to do it just topped it all off. Even Negan was more chilling to me here than in any of his self-indulgent monologues. He wasn't pacing around enjoying the sound of his own voice. He was laser focused on completely breaking a human being. Way scarier than "Lucille is thirsty!"

He needs to steer his dialogue away from "strutting rooster" or he'll lose all clout as a badass. Not among his men, obviously. Among the audience. Er. No, actually, I can only speak for myself. He'll lose clout with me. Wow. It sounds way less important when I put it like that. Okay reset. It will make Negan lose clout with all the people in the history of ever. Yeah. I speak for the whole planet. Everybody.

LOL he'll lose clout with me too.  Actually Negan was far more scary in that scene because Rick made him mad.  When Michonne spoke up and he answered her, you're right, that hit me harder than all his singsong strutting.

[Timetoread]

18 hours ago, RabbitEars said:

This show has been out of things to say for several seasons. "Zombies bad, other people bad."

Anyway, if Lori could come back in that white dress and haunt Rick, Glenn better come back one day, too. It's only fair. 

Once they're in one place, why not scout out a library and start researching how to do the things that modern society took care of? Making soap? Raising livestock? As mentioned above, making gunpowder?

Looks like someone found a Homegoods. I would watch that episode. 

As I drive and run my errands around Alexandria, VA I wonder why nobody has happened upon the bazillion shopp centers, hospitals, military bases, costco's, drug stores, and gas stations.  This is not a rural area.  

[Timetoread]

2 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Jeffrey Dean Morgan is a scrawny ass. Rick was a cop, and trained in apprehending an aggressive subject, as well as being a proven badass. I counted at least three times that Rick could have overpowered Negan. 

Negan's followers are obviously sheep, and had Rick returned in the RV and announced that  his orders were to gather his clan and return to Alexandria, then I doubt they would have objected. Then they could have regrouped, and decided their next plan of action. I'm not a hater, and wanted to love the episode, but just felt it wasn't written true to the nature of the characters. 

TV isn't reality, obviously, but one reason I loved this show is the depth of character development but that seems to have taken a back seat to shock value. 

I keep seeing this.  JDM is a pretty strapping guy, second in height and weight only to Cudlitz on this cast.  He's 6'2 (compared to AL at 5'10) and he's got muscles.  Why do people keep calling him scrawny?

[ByTor]

52 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Reading all that, I would be very interested in if CDB plotted most of the season to take out Negan, and in the end, it's Carl who just takes advantage of the opportunity and offs him. Which is entirely plausible to me. 

Prediction (based on nothing except for the irony of a "pacifist" doing the offing)...it will be Morgan.

Edited October 26, 2016 by ByTor

[ganesh]

I was thinking more that CDB's plan is just not good because nuance is not their strength and Carl just sees an advantage and takes it because he's below the radar. Not that he's fed up with Rick or anything. 

Or maybe they plan it that Carl has a 'rift' with Rick and plans to get Negan to 'take him under his wing' or something like that. 

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

Prediction (based on nothing except for the irony of a "pacifist" doing the offing)...it will be Morgan.

I would like that, though. Something needs to drag Morgan out of his, "All Life is Precious" psychosis. 

I only watched the last season once (rare for me), so my memory isn't good - did he actually kill that guy that had Carol? Or just injure him?

[ByTor]

Just now, ghoulina said:

I only watched the last season once (rare for me), so my memory isn't good - did he actually kill that guy that had Carol? Or just injure him?

I'm pretty sure he actually killed him, I have a gut feeling his guilt will be addressed this season.

[The Mighty Peanut]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I was thinking more that CDB's plan is just not good because nuance is not their strength and Carl just sees an advantage and takes it because he's below the radar. Not that he's fed up with Rick or anything. 

Or maybe they plan it that Carl has a 'rift' with Rick and plans to get Negan to 'take him under his wing' or something like that. 

 

If they plan on humanizing Negan at any point, as they did with the governor, Dawn the cop, the unfair wolf, and even the termites to a certain extent (their one time sanctuary was overtaken by crazed rapists IIRC), I could see him bonding with Carl. If they give him a horrific backstory, though, I hope they don't do something with Maggie forgiving him to preserve Glenn's legacy of hope or some shit. I want blood.

Edited October 26, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[RustbeltWriter]

On 10/25/2016 at 11:25 AM, Boofish said:

Because in his Zombiesberg address Negan flat out said "I'm not about to grow gardens and shit; that's what I have you people for. You go get shit and give to me. That's how this works"

 

The evil just makes a bigger impression

The Vatos, The Green Family, The Hilltop, Father Pee Pants, Tyrese/Sasha and the ASZ  (the good)

Woodbury, Terminus, The Wolves, The Saviors, Grady Memorial (to a lesser extent the Claimers and Woodbury The Sequel) (the evil)

Reading that quote it occurs to me that this whole setup is similar to the Magnificent Seven redone with zombies. Negan is Calvera, shaking down the villagers for half their stuff so he and his men can hustle and steal and do whatever it is bandits do with their time. Rick and his group are Yul Brynner, Steve McQueen and the rest; down on their luck gunslingers who are tasked with protecting the village ostensibly for a payday but in reality because no one likes to see bullies pulling one over on good people.

Even some of the dialogue is similar:

There's the threat to kill everyone in the village (Alexandria/ Hilltop):

 Calvera: If I leave here with empty hands, everyone in this village will answer to me when I come back.

There's Negan/ Calvera stating they won't grow food when they can just take it:

Calvera: Ride on? Where am I going to get the food for my men?

Chico: Buy it or grow it!

O'Reilly: Or maybe even work for it.

Negan/Calvera lamenting that he has been too lenient:

Generosity. That was my first mistake. I leave these people a little bit extra and they hire these men to make trouble.

I suppose this thing will eventually play out similarly, with Rick's group outsmarting Negan and killing the Saviors or at least driving them off by proving to be to be too strong for them. Rick, like Yul, will lose some more people but in the end the villages are saved from the threat of the bandits.

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

What has really hurt this show, is that the writers' have made the Walkers irrelevant.  Slap on some Walker blood, don't panic, and everything is just ducky. 

Yes, Negan did drive Rick into a Walker infested area, but if Rick had only coated his face and arms with blood from that hanged Walker with the Stretch Arm Strong neck,  as he was hanging on to the Walker, he should have been fine when he hit the ground.  Rick should have been able to do that with one arm wrapped around the Walker, and using his other arm to smear the Walker blood on himself.  Then he could have blended in with the Walkers and tried to escape.  At which point Negan could have said: "Come back Rick, or everyone in your little group dies."

As they say in FTWD, "A little dab'll do you!"

[The Mighty Peanut]

This is so bittersweet. I'd forgotten so many of these gems:

"You know, there are still 11 condoms left."

"That's 11 minutes of my life I won't get back."

[EllenC]

2 hours ago, Timetoread said:

I keep seeing this.  JDM is a pretty strapping guy, second in height and weight only to Cudlitz on this cast.  He's 6'2 (compared to AL at 5'10) and he's got muscles.  Why do people keep calling him scrawny?

Maybe just the effects of the wee little jacket? It kind of makes his head look overly big.

Edited October 26, 2016 by EllenC

[AngelaHunter]

2 minutes ago, EllenC said:

Maybe just the effects of the wee little jacket? 

I know that bulk is not required to be intimidating. As was mentioned further upthread in rebuttal to a post I made, Rick could be damned scary and he's not a big guy, although he seems to be strong. But I don't remember Rick dragging a a thrashing grown man by his collar a fair distance along the ground, and JDM is just so thin it's hard to imagine he could easily do that.

I remember the Gov (who was 6'4" IIRC) dragging Martinez that way to the zombie pit. Unlike Rick, Martinez wasn't struggling and still the Gov had a hard time doing it and appeared exhausted by the time he reached the pit. Maybe it's me, but I don't find Negan scary, and I'm pretty sure that (aside from his skinniness) it's that his non-stop talking and talking and talking kills the menace we're supposed to feel. Actions really do speak louder than words, Negan. His actions are disgusting, but not really scary to me, for some reason. I've never seen the comics, so maybe he gets more frightening as time goes on.

[Timetoread]

51 minutes ago, EllenC said:

Maybe just the effects of the wee little jacket? It kind of makes his head look overly big.

Yes the jacket is unfortunate.  For several years JDM has been my physical ideal.  He's what I like in a man, and I don't like scrawny.  BTW I just saw a shirtless shot of the guy playing Ezekiel.  JDM needs to step aside, I'm with Zeke!

[Irishmaple]

Well, hello! My apologies for objectifying you, Mr. Payton, but I will not be dropping Show this season after all!

[scrb]

Most lethal thing about Negan isn't Lucille.

It's actually the possibility that he could literally bore you to death.

[Gobi]

7 minutes ago, scrb said:

Most lethal thing about Negan isn't Lucille.

It's actually the possibility that he could literally bore you to death.

I've heard grown men have torn their own heads off to avoid listening to Negan.

[ParadoxLost]

17 hours ago, Scribbles said:

5.  All shows should tread lightly with flashbacks, dream sequences and so forth.  Done poorly they take you out of the moment and are off putting.  They didn't work for me in this episode.

This is another thing I blame on Nicotero directing (in addition to the gore).  I think they did an interview over the Summer where they said they filmed all the deaths to stave off the confirmation of who got killed coming out (as long as they could).  Nicotero has never shown restraint at the best of time and likes shots that are gimmicky.  I don't think he has the restraint s a director to pull back and decide less is more when it comes to the special effects.  And since they had the battering of everyone else on film, they decided to make use of it.

Its too bad because I think having that type of filler was the only thing that allowed the entire episode to be one drawn out monologue aimed at breaking Rick.  If you think about it, its almost like the rest of CDB and Negan's followers were just in suspended animation while Negan took Rick on a road trip.  I think the episode would have worked better with a glimpse of what was going on with them while Rick was gone.

[callmebetty]

2 hours ago, Timetoread said:

Yes the jacket is unfortunate.  For several years JDM has been my physical ideal.  He's what I like in a man, and I don't like scrawny.  BTW I just saw a shirtless shot of the guy playing Ezekiel.  JDM needs to step aside, I'm with Zeke!

Damn!!! Can I join the Kingdom ?  Between him and the hot Knights of Tron if I was Carol I wouldn't be going anywhere . 

[Reghan]

I'd really love to see an 8 month pregnant Maggie beating the shit out of Negan with Lucille...that would be EPIC!!! Please AMC?

[peach]

1 hour ago, Reghan said:

I'd really love to see an 8 month pregnant Maggie beating the shit out of Negan with Lucille...that would be EPIC!!! Please AMC?

Maybe they can knock him down, form a circle around him, and take turns.

[Maverick]

 My burning question after watching this episode:  so when does Fear the Walking Dead start again?

[Wryly]

In other news, I'm ready for Carl to get a haircut.

[AwesomO4000]

Hee. Not me. I like Carl's long hair. I think it suits him. Carl's not gonna care what anyone else thinks about his hair. He can also use it to partially cover his eyepatch.

[ByTor]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hee. Not me. I like Carl's long hair. I think it suits him. Carl's not gonna care what anyone else thinks about his hair. He can also use it to partially cover his eyepatch.

I like it too.  *Small voice* I also like Daryl's *ducking*