S04.E13: Forsaking All Others

[nlkm9]

yes there were so many moments he could have leaned in for a kiss and it would have been so sweet.  and technically, they have only known each other 5 weeks--for folks that are dating and attracted to each other it is like Tom and Lily kissing all the time. Nick just simply does not like her, or maybe likes her as a sister.

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Information and discussion for 90 Day Fiance can be located here. 

Let's keep it off the MAFS boards.  Many of these posters have been fortunate enough to avoid contraction of the 90DF illness.

hahah I already watch it--they said 90 day financial and I thought it was a different show! ha!

[Negritude]

14 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

This "opposites attract" stuff is only surface deep in romantic relationships in a lot of cases.  Not all opposites complement each other, and most people are better matched with someone similar to them.  This I say after years of studying relationships and studies about the personality types of successful matches.  Most of the time opposites clash, and it turns into a real deal breaker.  

This! I actually do attract my opposite more often than not, but I'm really seeking someone who's more like me lol. Ideally, I'd like to be with someone who is just different enough to make things interesting but is ultimately on the same wavelength. That opposites attract stuff is...I don't know. I guess it works for some people. 

[IrishPirate]

 Do you remember the first episode? The casting call? The room is full of eager men and women? There were dozens in those clips. And they ended up with the six people we have. yikes. 

 I also presume that not all three couples are having their six weeks at the same time. There was a suggestion somewhere along the way that the couples get together for a little bonding and support. But if their weddings took place at very different times, then filming them together would be a problem. That can also explain how there's time to put in a new couple if another pulls out.

[nexxie]

I'm enjoying the show, but the matchmakers suck - three strikes this season. 

Let's send Lily and Sonia on a spa weekend - and the guys can wear their flip-flops on a bus bromance!

[nexxie]

On 10/18/2016 at 10:54 PM, Madding crowd said:

Tom seems so insistent on Lilly not having her phone, not answering her phone; who is going to support them if they stay together? I didn't like the way he was badgering Lilly over the shoulder thing. I have had two shoulder surgeries and while I still think her issue can't be that serious (I was unable to lift my arms at all before surgery), this isn't the type of thing an alternate doctor could do much with. She could go to a chiropractor, but a good ortho doctor is best. I wouldn't ride in a bus with no AC in Florida-nope. I think they will stay together for now, but Lilly is too smart to put up with Tom for long.

Nick has zero interest in Sonia and I think she is growing tired of him. He doesn't look at her, try to kiss her-nothing. I'm guessing the show is telling him to say she should move back in. He shows affection only to the dogs. 

Since Lily is so afraid of surgery, maybe she should try physical therapy. I had a serious neck injury that was healed completely through p.t., making surgery unnecessary. That said, the editing is so crazy on this show I couldn't tell if Tom was just trying to help or being a control freak.

About the lack of affection between Nick and Sonia, I wonder if they (or the producers/editors) just don't want to show it - they did have a pact to pretend they hadn't had sex and lied over and over about it. Was that hug and kiss goodbye at the car a first for them - or the first we've been allowed to see?

[gonecrackers]

Nick spoke of why he would do the process over, due to all the experiences they've had, but not any comments regarding having a wife, relationship etc... (at least that was shown). Sonia looked quite let down so it seemed like that's all he had to say, which is just another insult to her.

I'm thinking now, from the way he spoke of it all, that the show pays for all their 'experiences' together. So not just the honeymoons & the rentals, but maybe everything else too; even all the little things. Nick just seems to be enjoying the ride as far as what he's getting out of it. That should be stopped by not funding anything, but of course then that will limit their choices too. So the show even trying to look serious is difficult as it's ripe for participants of questionable intent.

[wait.what]

Any watch Ridiculousness? The star/host Rob has a cousin that they call "Big Cat."

Nick reminds me of Big Cat. No expression, monotone, extremely awkward, almost dull, but then occasionally he will say or do something very funny. Apparently, off camera, he is very successful.

There MUST be more to these guys, but it just doesn't show on camera?

[Gem 10]

Joke of an episode led by the "experts" and producers I'm sure.  Lily, the breadwinner, is told by Pepper to disregard all electronics for one week and go on a mock second honeymoon to save face.  The girls livelihood depends on making deals on the phone.  Meanwhile, Tom the Surf Bum, puts worldly Lily in the bus with no air conditioning because he is too cheap to take her somewhere nice.  She is beyond a good sport.  She is a SAINT.    How could she care for a guy who wants all her love and attention like a two year old?  When she starts complaining and cuts off the sex, it's goodbye Lily.  She deserves better.

Nick is an ass.  He can't even look at her.  He was told to ask her back .. Again to save face by Pepper and the rest.  Sonia lowered herself by putting on that stupid dress which won't change his mind about her.  He would rather kiss his dogs.  Did she really think boobs would lure him in?  Nick is talking phony.  This whole episode was horrible.

[holly4755]

I believe it was back in the first episode, and article in people or US or one of those, explained that Tom's bus had air conditioning, but when they were filming inside they shut it off because it kept blowing switches. So the production crew turns off the air so as not to miss a gem of a word.

Edited October 21, 2016 by holly4755

[Gem 10]

On October 19, 2016 at 6:31 PM, lizajane said:

Am I the only one that was worried about that little dog being locked in the non-A/C bus?

Although Sonia was overdressed, Nick - is clueless. A decent shirt would have been more acceptable than what he was wearing. Maybe he thought getting ready to go out was putting in eyedrops and lip balm.

Oh YES !   I was thinking the same thing.  I was hoping production took the dog out after Lily & Tom left the bus. That way I could sleep.  It's like reading stories of stupid people leaving babies in hot cars.  I can't even think about that.

[1992austenlover]

53 minutes ago, Gem 10 said:

Oh YES !   I was thinking the same thing.  I was hoping production took the dog out after Lily & Tom left the bus. That way I could sleep.  It's like reading stories of stupid people leaving babies in hot cars.  I can't even think about that.

Lillian tweeted out the following during the episode: 

"The bus has AC once it's stationed, the inverter wasn't working so AC on the road was out of the question...Zeus was never left in a hot bus" 

You're welcome. lol ;p 

Edited October 21, 2016 by 1992austenlover

[Lion18]

51 minutes ago, Gem 10 said:

Oh YES !   I was thinking the same thing.  I was hoping production took the dog out after Lily & Tom left the bus. That way I could sleep.  It's like reading stories of stupid people leaving babies in hot cars.  I can't even think about that.

Lily said on Twitter that the AC works on the bus when it's not moving. Weird

however my dog would be barking her head off being left alone in a bus

[Drogo]

Social media posts don't belong here, folks. 

[Snarklepuss]

8 hours ago, Negritude said:

This! I actually do attract my opposite more often than not, but I'm really seeking someone who's more like me lol. Ideally, I'd like to be with someone who is just different enough to make things interesting but is ultimately on the same wavelength. That opposites attract stuff is...I don't know. I guess it works for some people. 

When  studied personality type and matching, most of the studies concluded that the best matches were between people who were moderately similar, meaning they had a medium amount of traits in common and a medium amount of traits at opposite ends of the spectrum.  Which things are most important to have in common vary with the person, but there are some trends.  Introverts for example tend to be happiest with another introvert.  An extrovert can work as long as they are not one of those high energy always talking people.  An extrovert like my Dad would be fine but one like my old boss who was super high energy and on the phone 24/7 would drive me bonkers.  Certain personality types (like my own) tend to prefer a very similar personality type and there is some evidence to show that there is more success when we choose a similar partner.  It may not feel as "exciting" as charting strange waters with a very different partner, but it has more potential to last for the long run.  They say "opposites attract" but the attraction tends to wear off when the reality of life sets in.  Tom may be fun for Lillian as a boyfriend but as a husband?  They can try it out but I don't think it would last unless Tom does a lot of growing up.

[Neurochick]

I don't think that Tom needs to "grow up."  The problem with Tom is, he's living the life a lot of folks live who have worked for years and have retired. 

I don't get why people think there's only one way to live and do things.

[Snarklepuss]

33 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think that Tom needs to "grow up."  The problem with Tom is, he's living the life a lot of folks live who have worked for years and have retired. 

I don't get why people think there's only one way to live and do things.

I don't think it's Tom's lifestyle that makes him need to grow up.  I have no issue with anyone who chooses his lifestyle whatsoever and I think I've made that clear before.  The problem with Tom is that he is too self centered to allow Lilly the right to live her lifestyle without him acting like a big baby about it.  That's why I think he needs to grow up.  Her life is not all about him, she has her own needs too that may make him have to fend for himself sometimes.  That's just part of any mature relationship and if he can't deal with that IMO he needs to grow up.  What would happen if they had kids?  He would be crying the same tune.  It's not even about work, it's about how freaking self centered he is.  Which is one reason I think he is unwilling to consider kids in his future.  He would not be the sole center of attention anymore. 

Also, when two partners differ they need to learn to become flexible about the other partner's differences.  He is not willing to let Lilly be the type A while he is the type B.  Lilly doesn't seem to expect him to be a type A.  She seems to want to accept him as he is and is putting in a lot of effort in working around his differences with her.  I can't say he's doing the same in return.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Jellybeans]

I think it is hard to know what is going on due to editing.  Sonia had her wedding ring on last week but this week they had her putting it back on.  I guess her dad visited after she put the ring back on.  

Lillian has been hinting at major disagreements.  For all we know she could be on her phone all the time - he mentioned selfies, and that is not work-related.  We all know people who cannot get off SM.

I think the producers have a storyline because the editing is truly pathetic.

[Snarklepuss]

For Lilly, just because she's filming the show doesn't mean her business can just stop.  Most of the other participants on this show have continued to work all through the filming and there have been small mentions made of it here and there.  I sincerely doubt that Tom has been working very much since they got married.  We have never ONCE seen any evidence of it.  We know more about Nick and Sonia's work than we do about Tom's.  Tom probably was able to take a significant chunk of time off while the show was filming while Lilly had to continue working.  If Lilly had deals in the works that needed to be followed up on she could not just take off altogether.  I think Tom should understand this if potentially thousands of dollars are at stake.  Again, I just think he's being a big baby.  It also gets my back all kinds of up because if the situation were reversed and Lilly was acting like Tom, she'd likely get called "needy and demanding".  Well, I think Tom is needy and demanding.

[LazyToaster]

I'm rarely "off the clock" for my work - just the nature of the business.  I do take vacations, but will occasionally check email and can easily and quickly respond.  It isn't exactly required, but it makes things operate so smoothly overall that I wouldn't imagine not doing it.  That doesn't mean I stayed glued to my phone etc., because I don't - but, my job matters to me and it is what I do.  Gee, I thought as a grown-up that was my choice.  I sure as hell would not want someone to tell me it was off limits.  Especially someone that has no clue about the nature of my job and clearly doesn't understand (or apparently care) how important it is to me.  

Tom was the one most worried about keeping finances separated - and now he wants her to possibly jeopardize her own success and potential ability to support herself?  What?  He wants it both ways?  Aarrgghh!  

Possibly they can work through this to a compromise, but I kind of think they may be doomed on this issue.  

[BunnySlippers]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think that Tom needs to "grow up."  The problem with Tom is, he's living the life a lot of folks live who have worked for years and have retired. 

I don't get why people think there's only one way to live and do things.

I agree that Tom is living the carefree life people usually want to live when they're retired and have the financial stability to be able to afford that. 

Which is fine for him as long as he's single or if he finds a woman who has the same outlook on life. But it's not fine if he goes on a show like this without making it very clear that that's the only thing he'll accept. He should have known that most women signing up for getting married this way would want the traditional married life with a comfortable home where they could raise their kids, and he shouldn't put Lilly down for wanting that kind of life.

My problem with Tom is that he looks down on people who want to live their life differently than him; he's inflexible and tries to push Lilly into doing things HE wants and the way HE wants; he's self-righteous and condescending; he doesn't accept the fact that she's a hard worker who wants to create the financial stability first before living that carefree life he wants; he doesn't accept her opinion and her decision about HER OWN BODY, and he's pushy about it all.

[lazylou]

On 10/19/2016 at 6:22 AM, Neurochick said:

 

Nick and Sonia:  If I were one of the experts, I'd tell Nick and Sonia that if they want to stay together they need to live separately, and DATE first.  What happened with Nick is a very important lesson for people to learn, sometimes you can say something to a person that can ruin your relationship with them for a very long time, maybe forever; Sonia is a sensitive soul and she's afraid, what if she moves back with Nick, he gets pissed off at her and hurts her feelings again?  That is what scares Sonia and I don't think the experts realize that.  Oh, and Sonia looked totally out of place in that dress; I could see if they were in a fancy restaurant in NYC or Vegas; I thought Nick looked more appropriate for where they were.

I agree with this.  Sonia was smart to move out because it forces Nick to chase her if he wants to stay on the program...and it seems to me he is, in his way.  Men do like to think they are in charge, but because Nick is so passive...Sonia was in a strange situation.

It seems as though Sonia is over her fear of dogs and in fact likes the little one; they both are much more comfortable in a dating situation than a live-in one; the "vision board" reveals the two of them actually have similar dreams, unlike Tom and Lilly. 

Also, I think they have a relationship deliberately withheld from the cameras and the producers.  They admit to an "off camera" date; the fact they had had sex before the big blow-up came as a complete shock, apparently, to the experts, the producers, and thus to us.  

Sonia seems to have done what the producers wanted...earlier on, she hounded Nick about his feelings, even though he is clearly uncomfortable  and was so turned off by being nagged about "his feelings" that he says his feelings are that he is not attracted to Sonia; maybe the producers, in an effort to force some sort of erotic scene,  suggested the dress that was way too dressy for the restaurant and for Nick's typical attire, besides being cut way too low...it certainly seemed like a departure from the clothes Sonia has worn before.  Maybe Nick would be more impressed if she wore one of his T shirts in a size too small. Also, that  costume she apparently will be seen in in the finale looks absurd for the setting.  The sporty, hooded dress she wore as they left the hotel was cute and more appropriate for the way Nick habitually dresses, even though it was not sexy.  The braid was cute.  

Maybe Nick insists on wearing his T-shirts, even when not appropriate as to the restaurant, just because he is  passive aggressive, and the reason he went on the show was in fact to advertise his brand, as others have suggested.

Nick is clearly inhibited and I think Sonia needs a more demonstrative and aggressive partner, but I am not sure Nick would react well to a more aggresive woman.  Maybe they could get past his awkwardness, but probably not on a TV show.  I can't imagine that Nick's T-shirt business has been all that much improved because of the show.  For one thing, Nick seems to have drawn so much enmity from the audience I can't believe people are flocking to buy his shirts, so if he went on the show to improve his business, I question he got what he wanted.

Edited October 21, 2016 by lazylou

[nexxie]

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think that Tom needs to "grow up."  The problem with Tom is, he's living the life a lot of folks live who have worked for years and have retired. 

I don't get why people think there's only one way to live and do things.

Agreed - I find it refreshing that Tom is living life on his own terms, enjoying the water and surfing, etc. while still young. Early on he said that the amount of money he makes depends on how much he works- apparently he works enough to support his lifestyle. Lily might not be a good match though.

[gonecrackers]

4 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

What would happen if they had kids?  He would be crying the same tune.  It's not even about work, it's about how freaking self centered he is.  Which is one reason I think he is unwilling to consider kids in his future.  He would not be the sole center of attention anymore. 

Tom's nasty comment on kids was regarding his nephews, I believe he said, who he called little 'terrorists' on the show. I think that's why he says for kids he'd want to adopt older kids. I don't think it's because he wants to help as much as he wants to bypass the 'terrible toddler' stage, but what he's not realizing is older kids who need homes will come with a lot of baggage that will require special people with a lot of love, time & patience to give. It will be a HUGE commitment, & he wants to be a 'free spirit', which could be a conflict of interest for him.

Sonia also said she wants to adopt, however, at this point it's hard to imagine Nick as a parent. She said she views her dad as the best guy in the world & Nick isn't adding up (in the Jamie interview). So whatever is happening with them behind the scenes may not be quite cutting it either.

Edited October 21, 2016 by gonecrackers

[Palomar]

Sonia is waiting for a romantic grand gesture from Nick.  Show up at her doorstep with something that speaks to her and SAY how wrong he was, etc. etc that he is falling in love with her, etc. tc  He is just so clueless or just biding his time until he is free of all obligations (Sonia and the show). 

Lily is trying SO hard but she will never be able to continue her career if she stays with Tom because he will always resent any time she gives to anyone (including kids) or anything (career or her interests) that doesn't put him first.  Her body, her medical decisions.  He should support her decisions about that and STFU.

[Paddywagon]

9 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think that Tom needs to "grow up."  The problem with Tom is, he's living the life a lot of folks live who have worked for years and have retired. 

I don't get why people think there's only one way to live and do things.

 

5 hours ago, nexxie said:

Agreed - I find it refreshing that Tom is living life on his own terms, enjoying the water and surfing, etc. while still young. Early on he said that the amount of money he makes depends on how much he works- apparently he works enough to support his lifestyle. Lily might not be a good match though.

I agree with these two posts so much.  

It was obvious during the matching show that Tom loves his bus and surfing all the time and that Lily loves her job and working all the time.  Tom's fine.  Lily's fine.  The experts who matched them, however, are totally fucked up.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Paddywagon

[Passthepopcorn]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 0:46 AM, LakeGal said:

Just once I wanted to hear Nick tell Sonia he missed her.  He could have at least told her that he missed her and realized he was happier when she lived with him.  Instead he just told her it was her decision to move back and that everyone thought she should.  The guy obviously has no clue how to apologize or talk to anyone he has hurt with his words. 

That is one of the things that is just not enough. He keeps saying "when and if YOU move back in, why don't YOU move back in, YOU should move back in". What's missing is the "I". I miss you, I didn't realize how nice it was to have you with me until I didn't have you, I'm sorry, I was a fool, I would love to have you back.

I guess she hangs on that little hope that he is insisting. "He must really want me back". In that sense he hasn't hesitated or told her whatever, do what you want. He keeps saying come back. So she is so confused.

The other thing that is not enough is the fact that he is not affectionate towards her. You may think he is not the affectionate type, but then you see that he can't keep his hands and mouth off his dogs. That has to hurt. Almost like being second to a dog :(

Edited October 22, 2016 by Passthepopcorn

[Empress1]

7 hours ago, BunnySlippers said:

I agree that Tom is living the carefree life people usually want to live when they're retired and have the financial stability to be able to afford that. 

Which is fine for him as long as he's single or if he finds a woman who has the same outlook on life. But it's not fine if he goes on a show like this without making it very clear that that's the only thing he'll accept. He should have known that most women signing up for getting married this way would want the traditional married life with a comfortable home where they could raise their kids, and he shouldn't put Lilly down for wanting that kind of life.

My problem with Tom is that he looks down on people who want to live their life differently than him; he's inflexible and tries to push Lilly into doing things HE wants and the way HE wants; he's self-righteous and condescending; he doesn't accept the fact that she's a hard worker who wants to create the financial stability first before living that carefree life he wants; he doesn't accept her opinion and her decision about HER OWN BODY, and he's pushy about it all.

Exactly - to me, it's Tom who seems set in his way. Lily seems pretty open to trying to do things he likes (except for alternative medicine and good for her, it's her body) - she's been open to the bus, she went snorkeling even though she's scared of open water. She hasn't chided the way he lives; Tom has called her materialistic. Lily is motivated by money; Tom is not - but he also seems to think that no one should be.

When you work in client-facing roles, you are beholden to your clients. My ex is an ad exec; there were times where he'd work weeks straight with no day off because a client had imposed a deadline. My accountant owns a small firm and he works 7 days a week from January until April 15. The other 15 accountants there work a ton too; he has dinner catered during the week and lunch catered on Saturday during tax season because they're all in the office. I have a former HS friend who works in residential real estate and he works pretty much all the time - he'll talk on FB about making calls and whatnot from the sidelines of his kids' soccer games. You can argue that people should work less and I wouldn't disagree with you at all, but that's the way it is. Lily seems to like her job and knew what she was getting into in terms of the hours; why should she change? 

41 minutes ago, Paddywagon said:

It was obvious during the matching show that Tom loves his bus and surfing all the time and that Lily loves her job and working all the time.  Tom's fine.  Lily's fine.  The experts who matched them, however, are totally fucked up.

I agree. They're just not compatible. I know a few marriages where the wife is the breadwinner and the husband stays home and everyone is happy with that arrangement and I could see Lily being OK with that, but I don't see that working for Tom.

[Gem 10]

On October 20, 2016 at 5:53 PM, nexxie said:

Since Lily is so afraid of surgery, maybe she should try physical therapy. I had a serious neck injury that was healed completely through p.t., making surgery unnecessary. That said, the editing is so crazy on this show I couldn't tell if Tom was just trying to help or being a control freak.

About the lack of affection between Nick and Sonia, I wonder if they (or the producers/editors) just don't want to show it - they did have a pact to pretend they hadn't had sex and lied over and over about it. Was that hug and kiss goodbye at the car a first for them - or the first we've been allowed to see?

 

19 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

When  studied personality type and matching, most of the studies concluded that the best matches were between people who were moderately similar, meaning they had a medium amount of traits in common and a medium amount of traits at opposite ends of the spectrum.  Which things are most important to have in common vary with the person, but there are some trends.  Introverts for example tend to be happiest with another introvert.  An extrovert can work as long as they are not one of those high energy always talking people.  An extrovert like my Dad would be fine but one like my old boss who was super high energy and on the phone 24/7 would drive me bonkers.  Certain personality types (like my own) tend to prefer a very similar personality type and there is some evidence to show that there is more success when we choose a similar partner.  It may not feel as "exciting" as charting strange waters with a very different partner, but it has more potential to last for the long run.  They say "opposites attract" but the attraction tends to wear off when the reality of life sets in.  Tom may be fun for Lillian as a boyfriend but as a husband?  They can try it out but I don't think it would last unless Tom does a lot of growing up.

 

23 hours ago, holly4755 said:

I believe it was back in the first episode, and article in people or US or one of those, explained that Tom's bus had air conditioning, but when they were filming inside they shut it off because it kept blowing switches. So the production crew turns off the air so as not to miss a gem of a word.

 

23 hours ago, holly4755 said:

I believe it was back in the first episode, and article in people or US or one of those, explained that Tom's bus had air conditioning, but when they were filming inside they shut it off because it kept blowing switches. So the production crew turns off the air so as not to miss a gem of a word.

If that stupid bus is blowing switches then Cheap Tom should have an electrician fix it.  LIly is nuts to film in there in the heat.  Boy, that girl takes a lot of crap from him.  And don't get me started on that thing he calls a bed.  Besides shoulder surgery, she will need back surgery too.  Maybe the "alternative medical procedure" can fix the air conditioning and bed too.

[Passthepopcorn]

About Lily and Tom. What I've seen in the show (I don't read them in SM) is that in spite of their differences, they were pretty accommodating to each other. He moved in the house, never heard a complaint about it. She tries new things with him, even if they don't particularly appeal to her, like water.

I thought that the more I saw of him, the more he seemed a compassionate and caring man. He seemed to enjoy, even adore Lily. He even asked her mother (making the effort of speaking her language) if he had her blessing to marry Lily. He seemed to accept that they won't be living in the bus.

Lily seems like a fresh soul, ready to embrace things wholeheartedly. Accepting of him.

I thought they could balance each other, giving the fact that they were ready to give in a bit to meet half way (aka grow up). But now, it gets confusing because he is back to square one (bus-identity) and she is decided to, for example, own two or three properties in the next five years. That and the fact that she wants a family and he doesn't necessarily, are pretty big issues to coexist in a couple.

About the bus trip, to each their own. I grew up in a part of the world, that back then, nobody had AC and the summers were hot and humid. Biggie, but no biggie. They are not going to live in the bus. It was a trip to a beautiful place and it means a lot to him. I wouldn't have mind much...

All in all, I think I'll be bummed if they split up. They could make it work and both benefit from it. Sometimes you gain a lot when you give in something.

[Gem 10]

9 minutes ago, Passthepopcorn said:

About Lily and Tom. What I've seen in the show (I don't read them in SM) is that in spite of their differences, they were pretty accommodating to each other. He moved in the house, never heard a complaint about it. She tries new things with him, even if they don't particularly appeal to her, like water.

I thought that the more I saw of him, the more he seemed a compassionate and caring man. He seemed to enjoy, even adore Lily. He even asked her mother (making the effort of speaking her language) if he had her blessing to marry Lily. He seemed to accept that they won't be living in the bus.

Lily seems like a fresh soul, ready to embrace things wholeheartedly. Accepting of him.

I thought they could balance each other, giving the fact that they were ready to give in a bit to meet half way (aka grow up). But now, it gets confusing because he is back to square one (bus-identity) and she is decided to, for example, own two or three properties in the next five years. That and the fact that she wants a family and he doesn't necessarily, are pretty big issues to coexist in a couple.

About the bus trip, to each their own. I grew up in a part of the world, that back then, nobody had AC and the summers were hot and humid. Biggie, but no biggie. They are not going to live in the bus. It was a trip to a beautiful place and it means a lot to him. I wouldn't have mind much...

All in all, I think I'll be bummed if they split up. They could make it work and both benefit from it. Sometimes you gain a lot when you give in something.

Tom called Lily "materialistic".  Was that a nice thing to say to her?

[LennieBriscoe]

IMO, three women who wanted adult males---men who maybe wore shoes, their hats facing front, and a regular shirt to a restaurant; men who kissed women as well as dogs; men who knew of Corinthians' "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." ---were not matched at all, let alone well.

I have developed another theory about Tom's being bugged at Lily re: alternative medicine. When Lily speaks of surgery, his thought balloon is like "$$$".

Tom has lived in the bus. Tom wants to continue to live in the bus. When did he say they were "not going to live in the bus"?

As for "hot and humid" being "no biggie": I would submit that to a woman who needs to be very careful with her hair styling, that particular rivulets-of-sweat-inducing weather can indeed be a "biggie."

Edited October 22, 2016 by LennieBriscoe

[Passthepopcorn]

58 minutes ago, Gem 10 said:

Tom called Lily "materialistic".  Was that a nice thing to say to her?

I'll swallow the condescending tone. If my opinion is what is called for, then I'll say that as much as I like Lily, she is leaning toward that path. It is a fact. Everybody is free to choose their goals. She is hardworking and ambitious, nothing wrong with that. Good for her. I'm going to be impartial when I give an opinion. I won't automatically put someone on a pedestal because she is a woman. They have completely different views of the world. If we are going to be picky about what is nice or not nice. Was it nice to look down on the bus and act like you hate everything in it when you know what it means to him? It was just a trip. I would never live there, I clarify. They won't live there, there's no way. But if my husband loves baseball and I don't, I won't say this game is damn, I'll sit next to him and read a book. He'll do the same for me.

I'm not on his side or her side. None of them are perfect nor the worst. 

[BunnySlippers]

22 minutes ago, Passthepopcorn said:

I'll swallow the condescending tone. If my opinion is what is called for, then I'll say that as much as I like Lily, she is leaning toward that path. It is a fact. Everybody is free to choose their goals. She is hardworking and ambitious, nothing wrong with that. Good for her. I'm going to be impartial when I give an opinion. I won't automatically put someone on a pedestal because she is a woman. They have completely different views of the world. If we are going to be picky about what is nice or not nice. Was it nice to look down on the bus and act like you hate everything in it when you know what it means to him? It was just a trip. I would never live there, I clarify. They won't live there, there's no way. But if my husband loves baseball and I don't, I won't say this game is damn, I'll sit next to him and read a book. He'll do the same for me.

I'm not on his side or her side. None of them are perfect nor the worst. 

My memory is that Lilly has been very accommodating to Tom about the bus. I don't remember her criticizing the bus to him. The things she complained about in her THs were things like the bed, and I don't think that anybody can fault her for that - she had to put a pillow under her lower back because the bed hurt her back. The first night she slept there and she took a shower in the morning, something went out (was it the light? or the hot water?). The only other thing I remember was that it got very hot inside without the air conditioning. Was there anything else? I can't remember.

By the way, I grew up in a country where we didn't have air conditioning either, but now I would suffer, too, if I had to be in a hot, humid place for an extended time without A/C.

I think that Lilly has tried very hard to go along with Tom's love of his bus. She didn't chew him out when he finally confessed that he lived in a bus; when the question of the second honeymoon came up, and he kept pushing for them to take the bus, she obviously didn't like the idea, but she still went along with it for his sake. And, as several people have pointed out, she went snorkeling with him, even though she doesn't like to swim in the ocean. When he kept pushing her to consider alternative medicine despite the fact that it's a torn ligament that needs surgery, she didn't tell him to shut up. She tried to explain her point of view. She got that artwork done for their one month anniversary. She organized a surprise birthday party for him and invited his brother. I think she's been trying to be as nice to him as she can.

I don't put her on a pedestal. I'm just sorry for her because she got paired with someone who has very different life goals from her, and I think that was a really unfair thing from the experts to do. Of course, the same can be said of Tom, since he didn't get paired with a similarly free spirited person either, but I just don't know how well he explained his preferences and dealbreakers to the experts before he got matched.

[krbr51]

9 hours ago, lazylou said:

I agree with this.  Sonia was smart to move out because it forces Nick to chase her if he wants to stay on the program...and it seems to me he is, in his own way.

Also, I think they have a relationship deliberately withheld from the cameras and the producers.  They admit to an "off camera" date; the fact they had had sex before the big blow-up came as a complete shock, apparently, to the experts, the producers, and thus to us.  

ITA with this.  I keep wondering why Sonia is dragging her heels about moving back in.  You can't "be married" and live somewhere else.  She seems to still say that she wants to be married (although the editing is not trustworthy).  I suspect that Sonia and Nick were getting along just fine - off camera.  Obviously, if they had sex more than once, they had to be connecting.  I am thinking that Sonia was starting to have real feelings for Nick.  But she hadn't shared them with anyone.  Audience or Nick.   Then, when he had his outburst, she realized how misplaced her feelings were.  She moved out.  And she is staying away so her feelings don't develop further.  Now that he seems to be chasing her a bit more, she is getting more comfortable. She wore her Freakum Dress to see how he responded, he did okay.  She puts her ring back on.  But to finish the experiment strong, she kinda needed to move back in.  I don't have a lot of hope they stay together, but maybe?  I am too much of a romantic.....  

[Snarklepuss]

1 hour ago, BunnySlippers said:

By the way, I grew up in a country where we didn't have air conditioning either, but now I would suffer, too, if I had to be in a hot, humid place for an extended time without A/C.

I know I'm old, but I grew up in a time in history when air conditioning on a bus (or anywhere, like even my bedroom!) was not a "given" thing and even when there was air conditioning it often didn't work.  This thread has brought back a memory of mine from 43 years ago on just that subject.  In 1973 I went to a travel camp that took us down to Florida to see the then new Disney World.  It was the dead of August.  I was very concerned as to whether the bus would have air conditioning.  Well, it did, but it did crap out a few times and even though I was quite young and the heat normally didn't bother me much, it bothered me on that trip.  Those large buses are tight quarters and hideous to be on in the heat without air conditioning even for then 14 year old me.  The fumes wafting through the windows and the engine heat alone could make a person sick to their stomach.

Fast forward to 1987 when Mr. Snarkle and I took the old Mercedes down to Daytona Beach again in August.  The AC in the old Benzes was notoriously bad and of course it crapped out on us for the entire trip home.  We DIED.  I am scarred for freaking life from that trip.  Just think traffic jams next to loud tractor trailors billowing hot smoke on the NJ Turnpike through our open windows FOR HOURS WITH NO RELIEF.  Not to mention what my hair looked like.  It was a freaking fright wig!

Anyway, I agree with @Gem 10 above - Lilly is a SAINT.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Gem 10]

On October 20, 2016 at 9:26 PM, holly4755 said:

I believe it was back in the first episode, and article in people or US or one of those, explained that Tom's bus had air conditioning, but when they were filming inside they shut it off because it kept blowing switches. So the production crew turns off the air so as not to miss a gem of a word.

Thank you Snarkle.  We share similar memories.  Husband and I moved to Florida for a year and a half.  Moved back to New York as we could NOT take the heat & humidity and preferred the seasons.  (Not that there's anything wrong with Florida).   LIly is a "giver" and gave it 100 %.  Tom seems to want his way most of the time.  I myself give in most of the time to make husband happy, but he in turn does a lot for me so that's why we are married for many, many, many years.  (Old school I guess).

[Stillhoping]

Reality check...Key Largo is about an hou away from Miami....the bus cant handle yhe crew filming it seems not Lilly.

I live in S Florida and the way the guys dress is fine and normal. Dereks wife beaters and cap mught not be welcome some places but Tom and nice are fine

All 3 guys are Broward co Ft lauderdale residents and it is very laid.back here...even Miami is more city ...workaholic. here it is casual Friday all week If we see someone in dark suit..wt shirt...tie we think...wedding...funeral...or they are in Court.

Both Nick and Tom work in our biggest "Industries"  ....touism and marine-boats-Yachts.. dr pepper even said both make a good living. FYI..jobs in yachting marine etc are pretty sweet. We know a yacht engine repair guy who doesnt work 9 to 5...he has had owners w stuck vessels fly him to bahamas....france....rhode Island. He has a boat but had use of a clients yacht and was able to invite friends for winterfest boat parade...yes i attenended wow

 

I still want to know what derek does for a living. Account Executive here is often a telemarketer haha. 

[MsPH]

12 hours ago, Passthepopcorn said:

That is one of the things that is just not enough. He keeps saying "when and if YOU move back in, why don't YOU move back in, YOU should move back in". What's missing is the "I". I miss you, I didn't realize how nice it was to have you with me until I didn't have you, I'm sorry, I was a fool, I would love to have you back.

I guess she hangs on that little hope that he is insisting. "He must really want me back". In that sense he hasn't hesitated or told her whatever, do what you want. He keeps saying come back. So she is so confused.

The other thing that is not enough is the fact that he is not affectionate towards her. You may think he is not the affectionate type, but then you see that he can't keep his hands and mouth off his dogs. That has to hurt. Almost like being second to a dog :(

I don't think petting the dogs is comparable to being affectionate towards another human being. I'm also a pretty extreme introvert and shy to boot, though the shyness has thankfully lessened over the years, and if I'm in an uncomfortable situation and there's a dog around, I'll be all over that dog. I don't care whose dog it is or if I just met the dog 2 minutes ago, I'll be petting that creature like he's mine. I grew up with dogs and often times felt closer to them than any human being, so I guess they're like a comfort blanket for me, a stress reliever. They don't judge, they're just happy to get any attention. Focusing on them is also a way to avoid eye contact and turn the other person's attention away from you as well. So Nick being all over the dogs rather than Sonia, just shows me that he's still not comfortable around her and/or the cameras. Whether things are different off-camera, who knows. They might be, since Sonia hasn't totally given up yet, or they might not, in which case is it worth sticking around to see if they get any better? I don't know. I can't help giving Nick some slack since I see myself in him at times. He can act like an idiot, but there are some mental blocks that come with shyness which are hard for most people to understand. Saying or doing something that's totally normal for others might seem next to impossible and it's not that you don't realise how strange that is, you just feel unable to do anything about it and that's extremely frustrating. Nothing that Nick has said or done makes me think that he's not really shy or introverted, he totally is. The only thing he's done that I question, is go on TV in the first place, but I don't think it's just to advertise his business. Considering how inhibited and useless at relationships he is, I can see him thinking of this show a shortcut to marriage. That's what it sounded like when he was ranting about how it shouldn't require work because experts paired you up. Too bad it doesn't work like that in reality. You still have to get to know the other person from scratch, they just can't run away after the first date (well Heather could). I think he might be slowly growing attached to Sonia, but it's still too much for him to talk about his feelings, even if it's just "I miss you". Kind of sad.

[Neurochick]

14 hours ago, Paddywagon said:

 

I agree with these two posts so much.  

It was obvious during the matching show that Tom loves his bus and surfing all the time and that Lily loves her job and working all the time.  Tom's fine.  Lily's fine.  The experts who matched them, however, are totally fucked up.

On the matchmaking special there was a woman who came off as very free-spirit-ish; I think she had pink hair or something.  She would have been perfect for Tom.  

As for A/C, I didn't have it until I was in my forties, the building where I lived wasn't wired for it.  I have it now and I'm glad that I do, but that's probably because I'm older.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Neurochick

[nexxie]

15 hours ago, Passthepopcorn said:

I'll swallow the condescending tone. If my opinion is what is called for, then I'll say that as much as I like Lily, she is leaning toward that path. It is a fact. Everybody is free to choose their goals. She is hardworking and ambitious, nothing wrong with that. Good for her. I'm going to be impartial when I give an opinion. I won't automatically put someone on a pedestal because she is a woman. They have completely different views of the world. If we are going to be picky about what is nice or not nice. Was it nice to look down on the bus and act like you hate everything in it when you know what it means to him? It was just a trip. I would never live there, I clarify. They won't live there, there's no way. But if my husband loves baseball and I don't, I won't say this game is damn, I'll sit next to him and read a book. He'll do the same for me.

I'm not on his side or her side. None of them are perfect nor the worst. 

If not "completely different views of the world," at least different views of their futures - both know what they want, and it ain't even close to the same thing.

[Evil Queen]

19 hours ago, krbr51 said:

ITA with this.  I keep wondering why Sonia is dragging her heels about moving back in.  You can't "be married" and live somewhere else.  She seems to still say that she wants to be married (although the editing is not trustworthy).  I suspect that Sonia and Nick were getting along just fine - off camera.  Obviously, if they had sex more than once, they had to be connecting.  I am thinking that Sonia was starting to have real feelings for Nick.  But she hadn't shared them with anyone.  Audience or Nick.   Then, when he had his outburst, she realized how misplaced her feelings were.  She moved out.  And she is staying away so her feelings don't develop further.  Now that he seems to be chasing her a bit more, she is getting more comfortable. She wore her Freakum Dress to see how he responded, he did okay.  She puts her ring back on.  But to finish the experiment strong, she kinda needed to move back in.  I don't have a lot of hope they stay together, but maybe?  I am too much of a romantic.....  

Why would someone want to stick around with any person that shouts much they can't stand you and find you unattractive? Why should she move back in to that kind of environment? Not only that but he seems to drink A LOT! Even before this outburst he was saying things that had nothing to do with what was talked about to be mean....that I don't love you wasn't asked of him and he did it on purpose. He was trying to keep her from getting close to him from the beginning. He hasn't been attracted to her at all. I do not buy his introverted BS. Its one of his excuses he gives out for his behavior when it fits. I don't get why anyone in their right mind and any self respect would want to stick around that kind of relationship or want someone to go back to it. He is only saying what he has to at this point in hopes of not looking like a major ass at the end of this show but IMO nothing will help that when he never means a word he says. I hope she doesn't go back to him and they don't stay together. Otherwise if she does it would be the same as it had been with Nick drinking and spewing out mean things to her. 

18 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

I know I'm old, but I grew up in a time in history when air conditioning on a bus (or anywhere, like even my bedroom!) was not a "given" thing and even when there was air conditioning it often didn't work.  This thread has brought back a memory of mine from 43 years ago on just that subject.  In 1973 I went to a travel camp that took us down to Florida to see the then new Disney World.  It was the dead of August.  I was very concerned as to whether the bus would have air conditioning.  Well, it did, but it did crap out a few times and even though I was quite young and the heat normally didn't bother me much, it bothered me on that trip.  Those large buses are tight quarters and hideous to be on in the heat without air conditioning even for then 14 year old me.  The fumes wafting through the windows and the engine heat alone could make a person sick to their stomach.

Fast forward to 1987 when Mr. Snarkle and I took the old Mercedes down to Daytona Beach again in August.  The AC in the old Benzes was notoriously bad and of course it crapped out on us for the entire trip home.  We DIED.  I am scarred for freaking life from that trip.  Just think traffic jams next to loud tractor trailors billowing hot smoke on the NJ Turnpike through our open windows FOR HOURS WITH NO RELIEF.  Not to mention what my hair looked like.  It was a freaking fright wig!

Anyway, I agree with @Gem 10 above - Lilly is a SAINT.

I am a born and raised Southern California girl. I grew up in the valley and we had 2 window a/c units. They were not very big. We had one in the living room and one in my parents room. Our schools didn't have a/c in them either. High school the office had it and the one room for typing class as it had some computers but that was it. My grandparents had lived in the beach in Santa Monica so it was a big difference in temp when you would go there. They had no a/c at all. I moved towards the beach almost 19 yrs ago when I met my husband. There is no a/c in the homes here unless you have it put in. Its rare to get an apartment/condo/house with a/c in it. We have to depend on the ocean breeze (Mother Nature's natural a/c as the weatherman calls it and is finally blowing again today). The last few days would have been nice to have an a/c btw. Last summer for us was one of the worse summers we have had since 2006 but it was extra humid instead with it. When we have no breeze it really sucks. We have a bunch of fans in our place for when we need. Since the 2006 summer I have not been able to handle heat like I use to. I was pregnant with our last child at the time and the last trimester at that. I don't know how much time we spent in stores so I could keep clue during that time. LOL If I had to live inland here I would have to have a/c. I couldn't do it otherwise. I honestly couldn't do that bus of Tom's with that humid heat and no windows opened for airflow even. While some might be able to handle it not everyone can for one reason or another. The fact that Lily did do all that, she is a trooper IMO. 

[booboopbedoo]

Quote

IMO, three women who wanted adult males

Key word- ADULT

Eve when I was younger I would have not gone for those dudes. They lack maturity.

If Nick would look at her and just say "I miss you and am so very sorry for being a Dick"

Holding her hand and maybe looking at her would help as well.

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, booboopbedoo said:

Key word- ADULT

Eve when I was younger I would have not gone for those dudes. They lack maturity.

If Nick would look at her and just say "I miss you and am so very sorry for being a Dick"

Holding her hand and maybe looking at her would help as well.

This business with Nick being uncomfortable showing affection in front of the camera sounds like an excuse.  Why am I not buying that he does it off camera?  I can just see by Sonia's body language that it ain't happenin' either in front of or behind the cameras.  And I'm also having a hard time believing that he really wants her to move back in all that much.  Why, so he can get drunk and tell the camera he's not attracted to her again?  He's not consistent at all.  Plus he's never explained why he made that outburst and none of the "experts" have nailed him to the wall about it either.  Something is just not right here.  No one makes an outburst like that and gets away with it saying nothing more than, "Oops, I didn't mean it".  And no one in their right mind would just expect someone to get over it without doing major apologizing and displays of attention, even gift giving, etc.  I think that is probably why Sonia hasn't moved back in at this point.  She may be waiting to see a sign from him.  I think she's going to be in for a long wait.  Again, I hope she doesn't cave.

[Gem 10]

14 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

Why would someone want to stick around with any person that shouts much they can't stand you and find you unattractive? Why should she move back in to that kind of environment? Not only that but he seems to drink A LOT! Even before this outburst he was saying things that had nothing to do with what was talked about to be mean....that I don't love you wasn't asked of him and he did it on purpose. He was trying to keep her from getting close to him from the beginning. He hasn't been attracted to her at all. I do not buy his introverted BS. Its one of his excuses he gives out for his behavior when it fits. I don't get why anyone in their right mind and any self respect would want to stick around that kind of relationship or want someone to go back to it. He is only saying what he has to at this point in hopes of not looking like a major ass at the end of this show but IMO nothing will help that when he never means a word he says. I hope she doesn't go back to him and they don't stay together. Otherwise if she does it would be the same as it had been with Nick drinking and spewing out mean things to her. 

I am a born and raised Southern California girl. I grew up in the valley and we had 2 window a/c units. They were not very big. We had one in the living room and one in my parents room. Our schools didn't have a/c in them either. High school the office had it and the one room for typing class as it had some computers but that was it. My grandparents had lived in the beach in Santa Monica so it was a big difference in temp when you would go there. They had no a/c at all. I moved towards the beach almost 19 yrs ago when I met my husband. There is no a/c in the homes here unless you have it put in. Its rare to get an apartment/condo/house with a/c in it. We have to depend on the ocean breeze (Mother Nature's natural a/c as the weatherman calls it and is finally blowing again today). The last few days would have been nice to have an a/c btw. Last summer for us was one of the worse summers we have had since 2006 but it was extra humid instead with it. When we have no breeze it really sucks. We have a bunch of fans in our place for when we need. Since the 2006 summer I have not been able to handle heat like I use to. I was pregnant with our last child at the time and the last trimester at that. I don't know how much time we spent in stores so I could keep clue during that time. LOL If I had to live inland here I would have to have a/c. I couldn't do it otherwise. I honestly couldn't do that bus of Tom's with that humid heat and no windows opened for airflow even. While some might be able to handle it not everyone can for one reason or another. The fact that Lily did do all that, she is a trooper IMO. 

You were "hot" since 2006?   Wait until you hit the "change".  You'll want to throw your body in the freezer and stay there.   Fun & games thru menopause FOREVER, ha ha.   NOT !     Xo.    And no comments from all you guys out there.

[Paddywagon]

On 10/22/2016 at 6:46 AM, Neurochick said:

On the matchmaking special there was a woman who came off as very free-spirit-ish; I think she had pink hair or something.  She would have been perfect for Tom.  

As for A/C, I didn't have it until I was in my forties, the building where I lived wasn't wired for it.  I have it now and I'm glad that I do, but that's probably because I'm older.

She might've been more punk than bohemian. I remember on The Bachelor there was a contestant whose occupation was "Free Spirit."  She was a total hippie and loved running around naked.  I'm surprised the producers didn't seek her out for Tom, lol!

Edited October 23, 2016 by Paddywagon

[Stillhoping]

On 10/21/2016 at 9:33 PM, Gem 10 said:

Tom called Lily "materialistic".  Was that a nice thing to say to her?

Actually I think that is a comment made in argument that most could forgive.

Nick's nasty rant is so much much worse and hard to forgive...can never forget. Maybe maybe if u had 10 years history and kids ...still could make ya file for divorce.

Tom and Lilly may have differences but they are pretty respectful

Plus Tom even said he knew Lilly would not lve in the bus and he accepted that...he said he just still wants it in his life...trips...weekends etc. Plus he was walking cute little Zuess haha

[watch2much]

On 10/21/2016 at 9:33 PM, Gem 10 said:

Tom called Lily "materialistic".  Was that a nice thing to say to her?

I believe he also used the word "ignorant" about her when she resisted his alternative medicine suggestion.

I think if you think back over what we've been shown, Lilly has done more to show Tom she cares about him.  So what if Tom moved into a real house?  big deal...he actually had full size accouterments.  Oh, yeah, and he brought her a bunch of pitiful looking flowers.

[jamblastx]

I was away last week on a business trip to the land of the previous season, suburban Atlanta, so I didn't watch this episode until last night.  I apologize if I am repeating adnauseum thoughts that others have had but I only glanced at the comments so far.

Tom/Lily - he is a total judgmental egotistical douche wrapping himself up in the minimalist/easy going/laid back persona.  If you consider that the bus is your 'identity', then you are just clearly screaming out for attention.  How could you ever think that anyone else would want to live in that ratty, un-airconditioned thing in Florida?  Having a comfortable mattress and AC in 95 degree weather is not being 'materialistic'.  And they left that poor Chihuahua in the bus by itself in that heat?  Wouldn't that thing get to be like an oven? 

Sonja/Nick - So they let him plaster his 'no one cares' brand of Section 8 t shirts but they cover up the Volkswagen logo of his Passat?  There is more of a chance that he is going to sell one t-shirt because of this show rather than someone buying a VW because they saw it on this show.  And yes, this was the most interesting thing about these two to me this week.  Well other than than Sonja putting her boobs on the platter for dinner and Nick's very best dress hoodie.

Heather/Derek - OK I am going to say it....I missed them.  And I don't mean that I missed the two of them per se (especially that whiny little girl....and I am talking about Derek) but just having another couple to watch making me want to gouge out my eyes from a third angle.  Because 75 minutes of those other four are waaaayyyy too much for me. 

[ethalfrida]

You will. notice in a great many films and televised events car logos are not shown. There are laws against it. Same with some buildings, you have to obtain permission. We ran into that a lot with rules to our online stores that sell graphics and photos.

Edited October 24, 2016 by ethalfrida

[jamblastx]

16 minutes ago, ethalfrida said:

You will. notice in a great many films and televised events car logos are not shown. There are laws against it. Same with some buildings, you have to obtain permission. We ran into that a lot with rules to our online stores that sell graphics and photos.

Oh I know that and quite frankly, especially when it comes to a scripted show, it takes me RIGHT out of the story and reminds me that its just a tv show.  And I dont think that its a law but rather, the feeling that showing a logo is branding and if the company wants it to be shown, they should pay for it.  Also if a show has product placement paid for by a certain company, they don't want to show the logo of a competitor.

I just found it odd since they have no issues showing other brand logos including Nick's t shirts and for that matter there was one scene where a Chevrolet bowtie was clearly visible in another car and I believe that we have seen the Lexus logos on Sonja's and Lily's car as well as Tom's Volvo.  I highly doubt that these manufacturers spent even a penny on this show