S02.E01: Out Of Time

[StaceyNotStacie]

9 hours ago, Proteus said:

Eh, I'm not going to stress over Neilson ratings like most people do. 

Especially when they know people watch tv many different ways these days.

I'm not a big follower of the other CW shows outside of Supergirl, but I caught the pilot last year and have seen every episode. One of these days I'll check out the other two shows on Netflix.  While I'm familiar with the leads, I had no idea who the two guys with Snart were.

As for the ratings, I'm hoping they also include dvr viewers.  I usually watch Grey's Anatomy live and then this on the dvr. I'd hate to lose this show because of not enough live viewers. 

[DavidJSnyder]

I don't understand the plan at the end. How does Einstein saying his ex-wife was his partner protect them from Nazis?

[Delphi]

6 hours ago, maczero said:

I can't really give Sara props on putting off her plans to kill Darhk.  She's still going to try again so she's still screwing with the timeline to save her sister.

I can absolutely give Sara a pass.   She is still in the early stages of grief while Barry has had literally all of his formative years dealing with the fact that his mother was murdered and not living with his dad. 

Sara has gone through hell, Barry hasn't. 

Barry is a petulant brat, Sara isn't. 

There are huge differences.

[squidprincess]

7 minutes ago, Delphi said:

I can absolutely give Sara a pass.   She is still in the early stages of grief while Barry has had literally all of his formative years dealing with the fact that his mother was murdered and not living with his dad. 

Sara has gone through hell, Barry hasn't. 

Barry is a petulant brat, Sara isn't. 

There are huge differences.

Except Barry wasn't just dealing with the death of his mother (which was a childhood trauma, which is provably harder to get past for most people than equivalent adult trauma), but his father being murdered basically that night.

He also has a power that, implicitly in the show and explicitly in the comics, affects the way he processes information and emotion.  So you have someone with a changed physiology that causes them to act more impulsively, an immediate grief COMBINED with an old childhood trauma, who makes a very bad decision without thinking of the consequences.

Sara on the other hand had six months to process the fact that her sister was dead.   She does also have impulse control issues, but this wasn't a case of just running across Darhk and impulsively trying to kill him.  She openly admits to planning this for six months.  That's not the "early stages of grief," that is premeditation.

I'm not saying it's wrong to sympathize with Sara, but if you're going to give her a pass for her "early stages of grief" and ignore the fact that Barry lost his father the same night that he made his incredibly stupid decision?  That doesn't make a lot of sense at all.

[Potanical Pardon]

I didn't hear one utterance of "barista".  Much, much better.

[CabotCove]

Quote

I'm not saying it's wrong to sympathize with Sara, but if you're going to give her a pass for her "early stages of grief" and ignore the fact that Barry lost his father the same night that he made his incredibly stupid decision?  That doesn't make a lot of sense at all.

????

Edited October 15, 2016 by DCLeague

[MarkHB]

14 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Neal McDonough's "german" is horrible. 

And did Sara seriously fight Darkh in the very same spot that she fought Vandal Savage in last season? Y'know, that port area with the crates and stuff? 

Has anyone suggested building an actual studio, with sound stages and a back lot, in the Vancouver area? How far out of the city do you have to get before land is reasonable enough to make it feasible?

 

12 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

As for the ratings, I'm hoping they also include dvr viewers.  I usually watch Grey's Anatomy live and then this on the dvr. I'd hate to lose this show because of not enough live viewers. 

Here's a tip: if you ever wind up participating in the Nielsen survey, watch the commercials. The data the DVR company gets from you isn't worth much to advertisers as they don't know who's watching ( no demographics).

Meanwhile, if you aren't participating in the ratings,  do whatever the hell you want. Ratings are a survey and extrapolation, not a census.

[tarotx]

I can't give Barry a pass because he's an idiot for doing it time and time again. Last season I already gave Barry a pass even though he erased many WestAllen kisses and got Ronnie killed. Plus a multitude of other consequences. But no one yells at him. He gets called pudding. He's babied and got a Flash drank and Flash day. 

Sara came back from the dead and her blood lust from the pit by taking off and drinking alone. In the past she rejoined the League which was not something she really wanted to do. She's a lost woman and she doesn't really have friends she can confide in. She had Snart for a bit but well he just died as well. 

And Sara hasn't had to deal with killing her friends from changing time (Barry got Ronnie Raymond killed last season plus he caused the portals to open). Barry changes time a lot while the Legends try to fix time. Sara has already got called out on her actions. Plus her vendetta is what led to them being able to save New york since they wouldn't have known about Damian Darhk's uranium.   

Sara will probably have to deal with the fact that her actions are what lead to Damian being fascinated with Lance and his daughters in the first place. Which is what Barry should be dealing with as well but The Flash doesn't like Barry to deal with the consequences of his actions. 

Also if you are worried about rather LOT will get a 3rd season, go rewatch season one on Netflix. 

[squidprincess]

Barry didn't actually kill Ronnie or cause the wormholes.  He had actually chosen NOT to change the past.  The wormhole explicitly happened when Eddie Thawne killed himself, and Grandfather Paradoxed Eobard.

But this is probably an argument for a different thread.

I thought Sara's behavior was definitely a sign of her grief overcoming her good sense.  In the past, we only saw her abandon her friends once: when she rejoined the League in 1958, and she was under the effect of timeline personality alteration then.  It will be interesting to see where it goes.

I did think it was interesting that while Ray and Sara fought about it, Rip didn't say anything.  Of course given his whole season one quest, it would have been hypocritical if he had.

[MarkHB]

19 minutes ago, tarotx said:

Also if you are worried about rather LOT will get a 3rd season, go rewatch season one on Netflix.

I'm thinking "The CW" now stands for "Cancellation? Wha...?"

Since it's not good for me to make so many comments in the episode thread without mentioning the episode, I'll say that I was surprised by how quickly they rushed through all the time periods they had teased in the ads, when reuniting the team.

Also, I was in Salem this summer,  and it has been determined that the actual site of the witch hangings is what is now, literally, an overgrown rocky hill behind a Walgreen's.

[KirkB]

One of the things I like about Dark (I have refused to put the pretentious h in there since he debuted on Arrow) here is the team seems to be encountering him in the past before he ever got the idol, meaning he has no magic. He's still long lived because of the Lazarus pit water but the magic would have made his fight with Sara a lot more one sided, on his behalf.

Reverse Flash showing up and joining forces with Dark tells me he's probably having a bigger impact on the timeline than anyone realizes. Where Savage had to live through the ages and make subtle alterations, Eobard can bop to whatever time he damn well pleases. Though I have to wonder why he doesn't just go back and kill the Legends when they're kids or something. Hey, it was a good idea when the Time Masters tried it, and they only failed because Rip realized what they were doing. Now, Rip is gone and no one even knows about Thawne.

Thanks, Barry.

Edited October 15, 2016 by KirkB

[Sakura12]

I thought Darkh's magic didn't work on Thea because she used the LP? So his magic wouldn't work on Sara either since she was actually brought back to life from the Lazarus Pit. 

[Delphi]

It's general consensus that people don't actually even start processing the fact that someone has died for several weeks until they start getting back to their daily life.  Weeks being a form of time measurement that I don't think can apply to the legends all that strictly, let alone months.   I think it's pretty clear that Sara is still in the anger and bargaining stages of grief.   She's angry at Darhk (Huh my spell check fixes that for me, neat.) And she's doing everything she can to save Laurel's life.   Sara didn't get a chance to do anything that people do when loved ones die.   She didn't go to the wake, get grief therapy, go to a funeral.   She didn't get time off to process anything, she was just thrown back into the Savage problem. 

 

You can bet that Barry got that.   He got time off and therapy after his mom died.   After he beat Zoom, no one on his team would make him put the costume back on to save Central City.  Barry is constantly set on denial and bargaining because of his powers and that is horrible that he willingly bargains the lives of not only his friends but the entire universe because he's a sad puppy.   This is the fourth time he's done this and he still fails to see that actions have consequences.   He's in fact shocked to learn that they do, repeatedly.  I can't give him a pass in the least.  At most I can give him a pink slip, you don't need to be a hero, in fact you're fired.   Just stop fucking up people's lives to suit your fancy. 

Also, @tarotx I didn't even consider the idea that Darhk would be so fascinated by Quentin and the girls because of Sara's interference.   Awesome assumption. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by Delphi

[squidprincess]

Barry literally lost his father that night.  It doesn't matter how much therapy he's had for his mother's death.  He literally JUST saw Zoom murder his father.

Sara had six months to process.  And she outright admits to premeditating this timeline alteration for months.  The only real difference between Sara and Barry here is that Sara doesn't have the power to screw with the timeline directly (at least without Rip or Gideon's cooperation) and Barry does.  And Sara, having traveled with the Legends, has even less excuse than Barry if you want to talk about knowing timeline actions have consequences.  Since she literally travels with time travelers.

I like Sara a lot, but there is no way that she comes out any better than Barry in this particular comparison (others, sure.)  Rip doesn't either for that matter, which is why I was really happy to see that he kept his mouth shut.  Ray, actually, is the only one who really can claim any sort of moral high ground here, because he actually had the opportunity to trying to change Anna's fate (in Last Refuge) and chose not to.

Tangentially: does Heywood's story seem fishy to anyone else?  Just, it seems awfully convenient that he knew who Oliver was (a great moment, but Ollie can't have been the only person to move to Star City in that time period), and could somehow detect the time alterations.  I think it's kind of interesting that he only rejoins the team after Rip himself is gone.  I'm not saying I think he's a villain or anything, but I think he might be hiding something.

[KirkB]

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I thought Darkh's magic didn't work on Thea because she used the LP? So his magic wouldn't work on Sara either since she was actually brought back to life from the Lazarus Pit. 

If memory serves me correctly, Dark couldn't suck the life out of Thea like he did other people because of the Lazarus Pit. Trying it actually seemed to rebound and hurt him instead. The same would presumably be true of Sara. But he also had other powers, something like telekinesis, he could throw Oliver around like a rag doll and was able to hold Laurel still while he killed her. That would still work on Sara. But even without the benefit of his magic, when they were confronting Dark on the world's most popular dock he still able to fight Sara to a standstill.

Edited October 15, 2016 by KirkB

[TwistedandBored]

I really enjoying watching this episode but I missed Captain Cold so badly.

I liked that Sara wanted revenge and was looking into ways to kill Darhk.

I did not however like the whole Ray aching to save his fiancee thing. I mean I would have believed he wanted to do everything he can to be with her or save her if last season didn't happen. He had a moment to be with his dead fiancee and instead was chasing after Kendra. He acted like he didn't care about her at all. 

Anyways,  I like the team dynamic.  

[kathyk24]

I loved Sara calling Ray a Boy Scout. If he was a female character fans would call him a Mary Sue. I don't watch the Flash so I can't compare the two shows but six months is not very long when dealing with the murder of a loved one. Has Jax learned some of Stein's intelligence? I don't remember him being so mechanically adept last season.

[Jediknight]

14 minutes ago, kathyk24 said:

I loved Sara calling Ray a Boy Scout. If he was a female character fans would call him a Mary Sue. I don't watch the Flash so I can't compare the two shows but six months is not very long when dealing with the murder of a loved one. Has Jax learned some of Stein's intelligence? I don't remember him being so mechanically adept last season.

He was a mechanic before becoming Firestorm, and worked on the ship multiple times last season.  They also established on his first episode of The Flash, that in addition to being a hell of a football player, he was smart.

[maczero]

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 11:55 PM, Delphi said:

I can absolutely give Sara a pass.   She is still in the early stages of grief while Barry has had literally all of his formative years dealing with the fact that his mother was murdered and not living with his dad. 

Sara has gone through hell, Barry hasn't. 

Barry is a petulant brat, Sara isn't. 

There are huge differences.

Not really.  She's still going to try to kill Darhk at some point before he kills Laurel so she's still going to change the timeline.  And unlike Barry, Sara has made it her job to preserve history.  So in a way her actions come across as hypocritical.

[Sakura12]

Although without Sara's side mission they wouldn't know it was Darhk that was supplying the Nazi's with the future tech and planning to kidnap Einstein's wife. We don't know if Sara will try again. And they will all be fighting Darhk because he and Eobard are trying to change history. So Sara will be doing her job of protecting history.  She also will not be able to kill Darhk because they won't want to erase the entire Season 4 of Arrow. Most likely Sara will have to let him live because of history. 

Barry's not being a hero, he's being a lost little boy that wants everything to be great for him, without caring that he's messing with other people's lives. Then everyone forgives him and he faces no consequences. I also did forgive him the first time he did it. This is the second time. Then he was going to do it again until the other Flash told him to stop doing that. 

[Primal Slayer]

It was ok but way to much cheese to start the season off with. This would've made a good regular episode but not a season premiere.

[maczero]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Although without Sara's side mission they wouldn't know it was Darhk that was supplying the Nazi's with the future tech and planning to kidnap Einstein's wife. We don't know if Sara will try again. And they will all be fighting Darhk because he and Eobard are trying to change history. So Sara will be doing her job of protecting history.  She also will not be able to kill Darhk because they won't want to erase the entire Season 4 of Arrow. Most likely Sara will have to let him live because of history. 

Barry's not being a hero, he's being a lost little boy that wants everything to be great for him, without caring that he's messing with other people's lives. Then everyone forgives him and he faces no consequences. I also did forgive him the first time he did it. This is the second time. Then he was going to do it again until the other Flash told him to stop doing that. 

Darhk being in league with Eobard was a coincidence so killing Darhk wasn't an official mission.  In fact, the only thing that saved Darhk was Ray saying they needed him alive to save New York.  Sara replies "next time".  So she still plans to kill him in the past which she hopes will save Laurel.  As for protecting history by stopping Dark, that's fine but he's not the one disrupting history (Eobard is).  Remember Darhk belongs in the past.  If she still plans to kill Darhk in the past then she's changing history.  This means she's on the exact same path that Barry's on.

[Izeinwinter]

My favorite part of the episode was a bit that was only implied, not even shown. Sarah got stranded in the dark ages. And then she goes and derails the most infamous witch hunt in american history. And how does she do this? Not by killing. But by walking into town and seducing the wives and daughters of the puritans like the immortal queen of air and darkness. Witch? I'll show you witchery! She made herself the focal point of the moral panic. Which is genius. Deranged, but genius. 

[Hook75]

First Cold, now Rip? WHY, show, WHY?

[Sakura12]

I kind wish we could've seen Sara in Salem. She hates when women suffer at the hands of men. Even when she was a feral soulless animal she still stopped everything to hurt men that hurt women. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Sakura12

[ElleMo]

On 10/14/2016 at 11:01 PM, DavidJSnyder said:

I don't understand the plan at the end. How does Einstein saying his ex-wife was his partner protect them from Nazis?

So the government would put her under protection.

[ElleMo]

On 10/15/2016 at 6:23 PM, squidprincess said:

Tangentially: does Heywood's story seem fishy to anyone else?  Just, it seems awfully convenient that he knew who Oliver was (a great moment, but Ollie can't have been the only person to move to Star City in that time period), and could somehow detect the time alterations.  I think it's kind of interesting that he only rejoins the team after Rip himself is gone.  I'm not saying I think he's a villain or anything, but I think he might be hiding something.

If you think about it, it is not too difficult to figure out.

1. Hood vigilante appears around the same time he comes home from the island

2. Oliver leaves town for a while to mope on the island.  Hood disappears.  Arrow appears when he gets back. (Season 2 ep 1)

3. Leaves town with Felicity.  Arrow is back again when he is back (Beginning of season 4)

4.  Gives impassioned speech at Laurel's funeral about her being the black canary

5. Has statue of Laurel built and speaks at dedication

Anyone friends with Laurel would be suspected of being the hood.  All you have to do is check out her friends and figure out who was in town at the same time.  Oliver speaking at both the funeral and the statue dedication makes him a prime candidate.

Edited October 17, 2016 by ElleMo
my typing sucks

[Sakura12]

I think it would be pretty easy to guess that Oliver is the Green Arrow. As pointed out above, the Green Arrow appears and disappears whenever Oliver does. They just made everyone else stupid so they wouldn't figure it out. Now they wanted Oliver on the show so they made this new guy figure it out so he would help. 

Although that is staple in superhero stories. No one figures out the hero's secret identity despite it being very obvious. 

[KirkB]

Thought realistically I know it's not true, a part of me wants to think the citizens of Star City, and Gotham for that matter, are like those in Sunnydale. Everybody really DOES know what is going on, they're just smart enough to not say anything for fear of attracting the wrong kind of attention. The people of Metropolis, on the other hand, are deeply stupid.

[TwistedandBored]

On 10/16/2016 at 2:35 AM, Jediknight said:

He was a mechanic before becoming Firestorm, and worked on the ship multiple times last season.  They also established on his first episode of The Flash, that in addition to being a hell of a football player, he was smart.

I was just about to say this. Jax as smart mechanic is canon in the show. It is not something they added to his character this season. 

[MarkHB]

I realized something that bugged me: when they were trying to defuse the bomb, they completely ignored Firestorm's ability to transmute elements; in theory, he could have changed the uranium to lead or something.  I would have been fine if they had just hand-waved it by him saying that all he could do was, in effect, make the uranium decay all at once and release lethal radiation in the process, but it bothered me that they forgot about it.

[squidprincess]

I thought he was a bit too busy with the fighting end of things to get near it.  But it would have been good for them to say something about that.

[MissLucas]

Gave this a try since the Hawkpeople and Savage are gone. But so are Snart and Rip and new guy who seems to be there for history exposition isn't exactly a good replacement.

And show: I don't mind you playing fast and loose with history when the plot requires it (poor Oppenheimer) but try to get at least some details right from time to time. Einstein was a patent clerk in Bern not Vienna. However I really appreciated the subtle humor behind Rip being able to identify the Nazi imposters because the stitching on their US uniforms lapels was 'exquisite', he!

And since it can't be said enough: Thanks Barry!

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Stein Meets Einstein In Legends Of Tomorrow's Season 2 Premiere

They say never meet your heroes, but this one helps the team stop an A-bomb. BUT AT WHAT COST? (Unclear, really.)

[AudienceofOne]

Dear God, that was awful. Like Rory, I'm out.

[kassygreene]

7 hours ago, KirkB said:

Thought realistically I know it's not true, a part of me wants to think the citizens of Star City, and Gotham for that matter, are like those in Sunnydale. Everybody really DOES know what is going on, they're just smart enough to not say anything for fear of attracting the wrong kind of attention. The people of Metropolis, on the other hand, are deeply stupid.

Apparently the residents of Cardiff knew the what and where of Torchwood, so why shouldn't Star City, Central City, and Gotham be similar?

[DavidJSnyder]

20 hours ago, ElleMo said:

So the government would put her under protection.

The government didn't seem all that good at protecting Einstein himself.

But you're right, that must be the idea.

[KirkB]

Of course what the Legends don't know is that as soon as they leave Thawne could swoop in, grab the Einsteins and hand them over to Dark.

Edited October 18, 2016 by KirkB

[dmmetler]

Sara defaulting to planning to kill Darhk makes sense to me. She's a trained assassin, and while she has tried to leave that life behind, we've seen her choose to return to it when times get tough. Since it's now canon in the CW DCU that Laurel was the most perfect, inspirational snowflake that ever lived, and Sara can't go back to a LOA that no longer exists, it makes sense to me that she would retreat to planning an assassination. 

 

And, well, Nyssa is pretty closely associated with the LOA for Sara, too-so it also kind of makes sense to be that she'll replace that side of the LOA with whoever is handy, too. 

 

I really, really want them to bring over Nyssa. And if they can pick up Katana on the way, I won't mind that, either. 

[Starfish35]

And.....we’re off.   

This doesn’t quite line up with the season one cliffhanger, which always bugged me a little.  Rex Tyler said....”if you get on that ship, you’ll die”, not...”if you go to 1942, you’ll die”.  You could always say, he was just exaggerating, and explained more fully after the scene cut off, I guess.  But then there’s the part about Mick being the one to send him to warn the Legends, which....to the best of my recollection was never really explained.  Maybe I’m forgetting something, though, and it will he explained in future episodes.  

Anyway, I liked them bringing in Oliver to help Nate find the Waverider and Mick (although I’m still unclear about how exactly he did that....ARGUS connections maybe?).  And right away their crazy French mission tells us this isn’t the same show as last time. 

Also, Sara is on a mission to kill Damian Darhk to save her sister, which doesn’t really sound all that bad seeing as how we spent like 15 episodes last season watching the Legends try to kill Vandal Savage in order to save Rip’s family (and also millions of other people but still).   That wouldn’t be so bad, except her going off mission to have some fun with the French queen shows she’s not entirely using the best judgement right now.  

Sara and Ray also have a modified version of the Cap & Iron Man argument in the first Avengers, but they make up in the end.  Ray’s hair is super short (compared to now), and Mick starts calling Nate “Pretty” right off the bat.   And Rip....is mysteriously missing.   

[Sakura12]

The difference in the tone of this show is pretty huge between S1 and S2. Right of the bat you can tell they were going for a more fun and lighter tone. Even stranding them time was treated as a joke when they were all clearly about to die. 

Sara vs Damian is one of my favorite storylines for her. I mean I don't care about Laurel at all but seeing what happens between Sara and her nemesis is great. Especially when they fight with Damian immediately recognizing that Sara is League trained.

This show is great at recognizing the women of science. Here with Mileva Maric and later with Hedy Lamar. 

Loved seeing Oliver dragged into the craziness for a few scenes. It prepared him for his future storylines. Lol

I'm also confused with the ending of last season. Rex never said anything about 1942. They must've really changed their minds about the show and basically started over and scrapped their original plans. Because they don't match up.

Rip's speech means so much less after meeting his Time Bureau in Season 3 where he seemed to do nothing but tell them how dumb and incompetent the Legends are.