S18.E02: Making A Rapist

[WendyCR72]

Newly tested DNA evidence leads to the exoneration of a prisoner who served 16 years for a rape conviction.  However, he's investigated again one day later in the wake of a shocking new crime.

[Primetimer]

The Vice President declares victory over the rape-kit backlog, but one of the unjustly accused that testing freed falls under suspicion again.

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[Spartan Girl]

I wanted to throw something at the TV when Sean was making his allocation statement. Being wrongfully convicted and imprisoned for rape doesn't excuse what he did, not by a long shot. Especially when, instead of owning up to what he did in the first place, he spent most of the episode lying that he was framed by Fin. So no, I didn't feel sorry for him.

Nice to see that slimy fat fuck Buchanan get put in his place though.

[AlwaysWatching]

This was an especially bad episode. I never pick SVU apart while I'm watching it, but this episode had me rolling my eyes until they hurt.  You don't have someone pick a person out by showing them just a picture of the suspect - even on TV, right?  Rollins was so totally wrong with the kid.  Barba divining right there in court the mother's reason for saying she didn't hear the bad guys voice in her house.  Maybe I'm just too tired tonight. Joe Biden sure looked good, though.

Oh, and I also found myself wondering how much money Mariska makes every time she gives that worried look in court.  Hey, I love SVU. Been a fan since the beginning and will watch till one us puts an end to it. Mariska, you deserve all they pay you and more. Solid as a rock.

[Demian]

Quote

I wanted to throw something at the TV when Sean was making his allocution statement. Being wrongfully convicted and imprisoned for rape doesn't excuse what he did, not by a long shot.

I agree with you 1000%, but while this was airing, I was far busier getting completely pissed off by the episode's underlying message, which to me was: "Oh, so you sent an entirely innocent person to prison for sixteen years, and you've now definitively exonerated them?  Well, don't even bother letting them out, because prison's certain to have turned them into a complete monster, and if you attempt to rectify your mistake, they'll just stab and rape and bleach your daughter before burning her to death."

That, combined with last week's complete civil rights nightmare of a premiere, makes me wonder where the fuck they're going with this season.

[wknt3]

The Good:

Lots of Fin, and in something more than a comic relief role. He was also looking much better than last episode.
Lots of Barba goodness. Lots of courtroom scenes for that matter.
It was good to see a sexually based offense front and center.
Liv leading and the squad investigating, It was nice to see everyone involved (they remembered Rollins this week!) and not Liv doing everything while Carisi helps and Fin snarks.
The scene questioning the parolee and trying to break the alibi really felt like classic SVU or even mothership. It's been done a million times, but sometimes all you need is the tried and true done right (see below.)
Good acting especially from the kid.

The Bad:

Fin can't put on a tie for the Vice President? But he can for court? Hell the whole episode is about history, why not go all the way and put him in one of those sharp three piece suits? I know he's gained a few pounds since back in the day, but he could still pull it off and remind Carisi and Barba that he did it first.
That whole intro was very frustrating. Mariska couldn't tolerate having a couple extras up there with her and Biden? We're really supposed to believe that there wouldn't be Deputy Commissioner or Chief up there and Liv would get all the credit? And they didn't really talk about the federal grant program for resolving the backlog. For that matter I could have sworn they've talked on the show before about how NYPD doesn't have the huge backlog problem that so many departments do.
Speaking of ego we're really supposed to believe that Barba would just sit there and Liv take over plea negotiations with Buchanan?
The whole plot has been done before much better. It's inevitable with a franchise that has been on for so long that you are going to repeat stories and themes. The headlines you rip these episodes from repeat themselves after all. But when you do something that's already been done you either need to put a new spin on it or you need to make sure that you do it as well or preferably better than you did before. Come up with a more realistic ID screw up from the squad or have it simply be that Buchanan picked up on the kid's crush and it's all his brilliant cross. Or go with the old standard and have the real bad guy be the fiance or the mother. I just couldn't help, but think about all the times this had been done better.

Overall I didn't hate this as much as the rest of those posting here seem to. But I was disappointed again. This was another good idea (which is why the L&Overse has done it several time before) that was turned into a meh script that the cast acted the hell out of it and it's becoming a pattern. What happened to the writers room that gave us Transgender Bridge, Institutional Fail, and Community Policing?

[Josette]

Quote

For that matter I could have sworn they've talked on the show before about how NYPD doesn't have the huge backlog problem that so many departments do.

That's right.  Although the rape kit that exonerated "Sean" was from Detroit.

I didn't pity him either.  Yeah, prison sucked and he suffered.  But he killed this girl who had never been anything but nice to him.  And his reasons for why it happened didn't work for me.  He says she laughed at him.  Okay, so maybe you kill her in a sudden burst of rage, but do you rape her? He says he was drunk, but he was able to burn and bleach away evidence despite that.   And he just wasn't willing to own up to what he'd done until he was forced to do so.

 

Annoying Olivia moment:  Telling Buchanan that his client need to allocute.  Um, that's Barba's job.

[RafaelBarbas]

I actually really liked this episode. It was no masterpiece, but I really liked the characters being more true to themselves than they had been under Warren. Everything made more sense. 

[JyDanzig]

3 hours ago, wknt3 said:

What happened to the writers room that gave us Transgender Bridge, Institutional Fail, and Community Policing?

 

New showrunner this year.  This is probably what the show is now.

Though I didn't hate this episode.  I thought that performance from Kelli Williams was fantastic and really pulled the whole thing together.  What bugged me was Fin's dismissive attitude about the whole thing.  Usually we see them having SOME guilt when they get an innocent person convicted!  I don't need to see him ripping himself apart for this entire hour, but that refrain of how he bore no responsibility and it's the jury that convicts was so gross.

[skittl3862]

10 hours ago, Demian said:

I agree with you 1000%, but while this was airing, I was far busier getting completely pissed off by the episode's underlying message, which to me was: "Oh, so you sent an entirely innocent person to prison for sixteen years, and you've now definitively exonerated them?  Well, don't even bother letting them out, because prison's certain to have turned them into a complete monster, and if you attempt to rectify your mistake, they'll just stab and rape and bleach your daughter before burning her to death."

Right? Especially with programs like the Innocence Project in real life, or Tucker going to the Conviction Integrity Unit in universe, it suggests that no one comes out of prison undamaged, so why even bother, even if they're innocent? They may have been innocent going in, but prison changes them. They already did this story in the episode Solitary- where the prisoner was put in solitary confinement for years, then got out of prison and murdered someone because he went crazy.

Also, not to be all Team Tuckson, but wouldn't it have made sense for him to appear in a press conference scene where new evidence overturned a conviction? Isn't that kind of his department now?

 

Soapbox: I'm sick of the show trivializing prison rape against men. For years, they used to openly mock suspects about how much they would be raped in prison. Then it started being used as a throwaway reference from former convicts (Perverted comes to mind, though I know there are others). In this episode, they took it a step further by actively blaming his prison rape for causing him to become a rapist himself. But, you know, no trial for Sean's rapists.

The two-part season finale last year brought a correctional officer to trial because he raped female inmates. For all the championing of crimes against women on this show, I wish SVU would use their platform to highlight the fact that men are victims too and they are also worthy of justice.

I wanted Sean to be ultimately innocent, and have it be a story of the bias against him as an ex-convict.

[Bananna]

Meh. This episode wasn't a complete trainwreck, but I switched off half way through.

Are Calhoun and Buchanan the only defense lawyers? (I watched this episode with my Nan and when Buchanan came on she groaned "Him again?")

I'm guessing they will not being following on with any of the storylines from last season (Barba's protective detail?), I mean apart from bringing up Dodds Jr. whenever Peter Gallagher makes an appearance.

[devious455]

I was looking forward to this episode because I liked Making a Murderer documentary but I had too many problems with it. Mainly how sloppy cops and the prosecution were. No way Barba proved that case beyond reasonable doubt.  He is my favorite character but come on, he didn't prepare Charlie for testifying (and relied on Rollins's word who did terrible job with the identification), he called an expert who didn't talk to Sean at all, the knife was found without a warrant, the cop who was on Sean's case 16 years ago was doing the house search and has found incriminating evidence. On top of everything Barba treated a grieving mother like a suspect on a stand without any sensitivity or tact. I get that he is fighting for a death victim but destroying the living relative on a stand is little too much for me. He could've told Benson to work her magic and explain Melanie what's at stake, that she is not at blame for what happen to Sean and her daughter and make her testify. Not that they would really need her testimony. If everybody did their job properly, every piece of evidence was collected by the book they could've spared her completely. Plus let's not pretend that a parent would never lie to get a justice for their children so her testimony is hardly a smoking gun. Barba is responsible for a case and detectives' mistakes reflect on him. And Benson of course :). 

Fin, Rollins, Benson, Barba and Carisi did a lousy job. If Sean didn't confess at the end Buchanan could even won that case. If the writers have balls they could make Sean innocent and the twist could be that Ashley's fiance did it. But the whole squad would look bad. Deservingly so though.  Also Barba is not the same person he was in season 14, even if I'm not happy about Warren's portrayal of him in season 17 this is not Barba I can love and root for. Please let this not be a trend from now on.  

Unpopular opinion: Even though Sean deserved to be held responsible for his actions I felt sorry for him for what happened in prison. Rape is rape. If Ana deserved sympathy last week according to Benson, Sean deserved it too. Barba could've recommended that at least a little part of the time Sean already served would be included in the sentence. And counselling. 

Acting by guest stars was incredible and this really had a potential to be amazing episode. 

[Packerbrewerbadger]

Agree with stupidity of Rollins only showing witness  one picture and not knowing how shaky his ID was.  

I was thinking it was going to be the felon friend who was drinking with them that night, especially how his testimony was so bad for defendant.  Can't believe they didn't even look at him as a possibility .

 

When they accused Finn of planting evidence, where was he suppose to have gotten the ring?  Did they think he removed it from the victim's finger?

And biggest WTF:   The mother heard them talking, but didnt hear him raping and torturing her???????????

[skittl3862]

46 minutes ago, devious455 said:

Unpopular opinion: Even though Sean deserved to be held responsible for his actions I felt sorry for him for what happened in prison. Rape is rape. If Ana deserved sympathy last week according to Benson, Sean deserved it too. Barba could've recommended that at least a little part of the time Sean already served would be included in the sentence. And counselling. 

Not unpopular with me. The two episodes back to back only highlights the bias. Ana was raped? Oh no, terrorist attack excused, let's pursue her rapist! Sean was raped? Too bad, we're going to treat him with contempt as a suspect, mock him for sticking around for his massive (completely legitimate) lawsuit against the city, then be offended when Barba implies there's any impropriety with Fin's active role finding a crucial piece of evidence in this second investigation. Why didn't Elizabeth Marvel run to defend Sean and appeal to Benson's sense of decency for a rape victim like she did last week?

[Monkeybball]

I thought this was a GREAT episode.  Was so much better than last week's.

It broke my heart a lil when they said at the end "Then who's fault is it?"  I mean, if you're going to go so far as to say it's the mom's fault, then you can extend that and say it's the guy's fault who actually raped her, because then she wouldn't have been in the position to accuse anyone in the first place.

Very sad story.  Although I was slightly perturbed with the way they wrote his allocution as "this is what you do if people laugh at you."  I would have preferred a little better explanation than that, because I don't think that was it.  I also wish we got to know a little bit more about what Sean was like prior to going in, and what made him a viable suspect in the first place.

 

Also,  OF COURSE VP Joe Biden shouted out Liv specifically.  *eyeroll*

ETA: Det. Tutuola's Prada sunglasses at the end....heeeeeeeeey.

 

ETA-A: Did anyone else call it immediately when he said "This is the first time I'll be allowed to legally drink!" and Liv gave her worried face? Shut up Liv, like your ass hasn't been in the wrong end of a bottle all of the last few seasons!

Also, does anyone else find it extremely weird how often people address how attractive Rollins (and Olivia) are?  I mean back in the old days it felt like Mariska had that written into her contract.  I mean Kelli Giddish is so pretty in that uber-blonde girl way that maybe it would be weird not to address it, but having the defense attorney do it in court?  Or suspects do it during interrogation?  Yeesh.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Monkeybball

[Princess Lucky]

Great potential, so-and-so execution.

The guest stars were fantastic, Ice T was also fantastic, the case was pretty unpredictable (or so we thought, until the totally predictable ending) but overall the episode left me cold. I watched it back to back with the premiere, actually, because I missed it last week, and let me tell you, it was two hours of boredom. All the characters feel off. No one's cracked a smile. Everyone is shouting all the time. What's going on?

13 hours ago, Demian said:

I agree with you 1000%, but while this was airing, I was far busier getting completely pissed off by the episode's underlying message, which to me was: "Oh, so you sent an entirely innocent person to prison for sixteen years, and you've now definitively exonerated them?  Well, don't even bother letting them out, because prison's certain to have turned them into a complete monster, and if you attempt to rectify your mistake, they'll just stab and rape and bleach your daughter before burning her to death."

That, combined with last week's complete civil rights nightmare of a premiere, makes me wonder where the fuck they're going with this season.

That was honestly infuriating. When Barba asked what the chances were that someone like Sean (a wrongfully convicted individual, not even a hardened criminal) would ever have a "normal" life, and the expert was like "oh, zero lol", I flipped out. Why bother checking the rape kits, then? Just to catch rapists who are roaming free? Exonerating innocent people is pointless, because prison has turned them into rapists anyway? Didn't they hold that whole press conference with the Veep to pat themselves on the back for releasing Sean?

And, by that virtue, why was Sean even responsible? Where was Huang to argue that all the abuse he suffered in prison turned him into a rapist ("Making A Rapist", by the way. 'Clever'. Yeah.) and he should face a milder sentence? Especially considering he served 16(?) years for a crime he didn't commit?

1 hour ago, skittl3862 said:

Not unpopular with me. The two episodes back to back only highlights the bias. Ana was raped? Oh no, terrorist attack excused, let's pursue her rapist! Sean was raped? Too bad, we're going to treat him with contempt as a suspect, mock him for sticking around for his massive (completely legitimate) lawsuit against the city, then be offended when Barba implies there's any impropriety with Fin's active role finding a crucial piece of evidence in this second investigation. Why didn't Elizabeth Marvel run to defend Sean and appeal to Benson's sense of decency for a rape victim like she did last week?

Exactly! Last week Benson was all "Ana may be a terrorist but she was raped, therefore a) she is not responsible for her actions and b) we need to find and prosecute her rapist". This week everyone was all "Sean was raped in prison by unnamed men we will neither look for nor prosecute, and now he's a total monster and he deserves to rot in hell".

I am not feeling this season so far. Adam Rodriguez over at Criminal Minds just might sway me to watch that live. And I love Mariska, but I kinda love Paget Brewster more.

Hopefully they'll bring in a new detective to shake things up. As it is, not even Carisi can keep my interest (why is he so mad, anyway?).

[TV-Lurker]

Why did the kid's testimony take Barba totally by surprised.  He should have been prepped by Barba (or his assistant).

[Chit Chat]

Quote

But he killed this girl who had never been anything but nice to him.  And his reasons for why it happened didn't work for me.  He says she laughed at him.  Okay, so maybe you kill her in a sudden burst of rage, but do you rape her?

What I didn't understand was how this guy became so close to the mom and daughter.  I must've missed something.  Why would you take the person out to dinner whom you accused of rape the day he got out of prison?  This made no sense to me.  Also, wouldn't you go downstairs when you heard him talking to your daughter?  Yeah, they found him innocent, but for crying out loud, he just got out of prison!  I rolled my eyes when the mom told the detectives they were going out to dinner.   I mean, come on!  Her testimony put in him prison for a very long time.  Taking him out to dinner is supposed to make him feel better?  Again, I had to have missed something in this storyline, so please fill me in if I did. 

[Snookums]

The elephant in the room is that nobody is talking about how IF THE RAPE KIT FROM SIXTEEN YEARS AGO had been processed in a timely fashion Sean never would have been convicted in the first place. That should be the focus of Sean's lawsuit and his rage! Fin, as was exhaustively pointed out, was only doing his damn job. I'm going on the assumption that there was enough evidence of some kind to make everyone sure that it was him, so the only thing the lawsuit should be focusing on was the withholding of exonerating evidence by the state of New York in not processing the kit.

Everybody spent this whole episode running around saying sorry, forgive me, I was wrong, it's not your fault, when the entire time the actual guilty party from the first botched trial all those years ago--New York--isn't even mentioned, except to set up the plot mechanics and show off Uncle Joe at the beginning of the show. 

I felt bad for Sean and for Melanie, who had the very foundations of their lives shattered by one man who apparently went on to  commit more crimes--they don't say word one as to whether Melanie's rapist was ever even caught. 

[starri]

I know this wasn't a "great" episode per se, but Kelli Williams so fantastic, I really wish we were back in the salad days when the show got Guest Actor/Actress Emmys left right and center.

As ridiculous as Uncle Joe and his "friend" Olivia were, it was clearly intended as a nod to Mariska's Joyful Heart Foundation.  She's done similar press conferences with Cyrus Vance, Manhattan's real DA, before.  And whatever else you think of her, the foundation is a great thing.  

[GarnetGirl]

I'm a little concerned about the direction of the show. It seems to be lacking an energy that was present the past few seasons. I am more concerned about the direction of Carisi- what happened to the foundation of empathy and compassion that was central to his character the past few seasons? And I miss the Barba snark, although I like that he has been featured more in the episodes. I know the show needs to be serious due to the subject matter, but it seems so dreary and glum these past two episodes. And there seems to be approximately 8,000 Mariska reaction shots- we get it- Olivia's concerned.

Hoping for something a little better next week.

P.S. Kelli Williams was a fantastic guest star, and I want to see Henry Thomas in more things.

[shapeshifter]

To any law-knowledgable viewers: Would the time he served for the crime that he did not commit reduce the time he will be serving for the crime he did commit?

[WendyCR72]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

To any law-knowledgable viewers: Would the time he served for the crime that he did not commit reduce the time he will be serving for the crime he did commit?

Not a lawyer and don't have any such connections. But I'd think it would be completely unrelated as they were two separate crimes. So the time served from the other would have no bearing here.

[auchic]

10 hours ago, devious455 said:

No way Barba proved that case beyond reasonable doubt.  He is my favorite character but come on, he didn't prepare Charlie for testifying (and relied on Rollins's word who did terrible job with the identification), he called an expert who didn't talk to Sean at all, the knife was found without a warrant, the cop who was on Sean's case 16 years ago was doing the house search and has found incriminating evidence. On top of everything Barba treated a grieving mother like a suspect on a stand without any sensitivity or tact.

This. I'm sorry, but my god, Barba not prepping the witness and then having the nerve to give Rollins shit for it (not that Rollins doesn't deserve it, but the reprimand should come from Benson)? It all felt so faux dramatic, like "Oh no, Barba is caught off guard in court, whatever will he do???? How will Truth and Justice prevail?" soap opera drama. I like more Barba, I like more courtroom scenes, but I don't like this half and half episode like Original Recipe used to do, where we lose half the cast when we get to the trial. Either move Carisi over to the "Order" side, or...idk, something to make it feel more balanced.

Carisi and Rollins feel...off to me. Not just the random angry!Carisi bits (nice to see him not taking shit from Barba anymore, though), but that he stood back and just watched Rollins push that kid to a piss-poor ID. I mean, yeah, good on him for calling out Barba's lack of preparation and defending her, but we're supposed to believe that he wouldn't question her on her actions beforehand? Especially when he knows that it could very easily come up in court? What happened to the cop/law student who sees things from both angles? And that kind of stunt was what we saw from Rollins in S16, when she was dealing with facing her former Chief, and drinking too much. She improved so much last year, so what's with the retcon? That's what it felt like to me, anyway. 

Fin was amazing. As was Lindsay from The Practice (who hasn't aged in 20 years, damn). 

[CleoCaesar]

11 hours ago, skittl3862 said:

Soapbox: I'm sick of the show trivializing prison rape against men. For years, they used to openly mock suspects about how much they would be raped in prison.

They were playing the Bad Cop role to intimidate a suspect/show him who's boss, not expressing their genuine indifference/schadenfreude at prison rape.

[The Wild Sow]

Crap, what did they do, just dust off "Wrath" from Season 3?  At least Olivia had the good grace to feel sorry for getting that guy wrongfully convicted.  Unlike Fin.

Quote

I was thinking it was going to be the felon friend who was drinking with them that night, especially how his testimony was so bad for defendant.  Can't believe they didn't even look at him as a possibility

Seriously.  I expected Charlie to see him in the courthouse hallway at the end and pipe up with, "Wait a minute!  That's the guy I really saw drop the knife!"

Explanation for Sean's confession?  Blacked out or passed out drunk, comes to and just assumes he must have done it, of course!  I'd have even been cool with them having consensual sex & friend showing up after Sean passes out.

[Ziz]

I wish they wouldn't name the episodes. I saw the title was 'Making a Rapist', and then lo, there's a man who got out of prison who is accused of raping/murdering. I wonder who the guilty person could be...

[wknt3]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

To any law-knowledgable viewers: Would the time he served for the crime that he did not commit reduce the time he will be serving for the crime he did commit?

 

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Not a lawyer and don't have any such connections. But I'd think it would be completely unrelated as they were two separate crimes. So the time served from the other would have no bearing here.

Also not a lawyer and would not consider myself particularly knowledgeable in this are of law, but in the L&Overse it's been pretty well established that prosecutors will generally take it into account when negotiating plea bargains and judges do tend to be more lenient in these circumstances. My understanding is the same as WENDYCR72 that there is nothing specific and it is a matter of those involved using their discretion. 

[wknt3]

On 9/29/2016 at 7:31 AM, Josette said:

Annoying Olivia moment:  Telling Buchanan that his client need to allocute.  Um, that's Barba's job.

And Barba would never just stand there politely and let Liv take over plea negotiations!

21 hours ago, JyDanzig said:

New showrunner this year.  This is probably what the show is now.

 

19 hours ago, devious455 said:

Acting by guest stars was incredible and this really had a potential to be amazing episode. 

The thing is I'm not so sure it's on the new showrunner - DEVIOUS455 just summed up my review of not just this espisode, but just about every episode in the second half of last season. It's like season 16 had potentital, season 17 started to deliver on that potential and then about halfway through started regressing and now we're back to good ideas that don't quite deliver despite great acting.

11 hours ago, starri said:

As ridiculous as Uncle Joe and his "friend" Olivia were, it was clearly intended as a nod to Mariska's Joyful Heart Foundation.  She's done similar press conferences with Cyrus Vance, Manhattan's real DA, before.  And whatever else you think of her, the foundation is a great thing.  

I agree. And I have no problem with Joe Biden getting some airtime for the work he did IRL getting federal funds to help solve the problem. I wouldn't have minded a PSA for the foundation with Mariska and Biden or more time spent on the opening with Biden talking about the issue. Just give us a little nod to realism. If Fred Thompson could share the stage with a couple extras as generic VIPs at his press conference with Mayor Bloomberg so can Mariska with VP Biden.

[Princess Lucky]

I agree that everyone did a bad job this week. Rollins got a totally shaky ID (which was easily debunked), Carisi failed to point that out (even though he's supposed to be a lawyer), they both failed to give Barba a heads up (and then they yelled at him over it), Barba failed to prep his witness (whom he just met 1 minute before the trial, and then he yelled at Rollins and Carisi over that), Benson failed to give a shit about a victim of rape, Ice T failed to give a shit about a man he wrongfully convicted.

Was I supposed to identify with any of them? Root for them? Who did the right thing? They were all acting like assholes.

11 hours ago, GarnetGirl said:

I'm a little concerned about the direction of the show. It seems to be lacking an energy that was present the past few seasons. I am more concerned about the direction of Carisi- what happened to the foundation of empathy and compassion that was central to his character the past few seasons? And I miss the Barba snark, although I like that he has been featured more in the episodes. I know the show needs to be serious due to the subject matter, but it seems so dreary and glum these past two episodes. And there seems to be approximately 8,000 Mariska reaction shots- we get it- Olivia's concerned.

Hoping for something a little better next week.

Agreed. The show right now is way too gloomy for my taste. And too dull and lifeless. Eh. Next week does look like it could be more fun. Fingers crossed.

8 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

They were playing the Bad Cop role to intimidate a suspect/show him who's boss, not expressing their genuine indifference/schadenfreude at prison rape.

I would agree, but personally I'm not just referring to what they specifically told Sean. I'm referring to the outlook of the entire episode. Which was "oh he got raped in prison? We're not even going to look into that." Especially on the heels of the premiere, where Benson wanted to prosecute a rapist even though the guy was an actual terrorist(!) and was already in trouble with the law. Why not look into these rapes? Why not look for Sean's rapists? Are they less important than that terrorist from the season premiere? Why did Benson move heaven and earth to find that guy? And this week rape was seen as a given in prison, unworthy of prosecution, or even investigation? Ugh.

1 minute ago, wknt3 said:

The thing is I'm not so sure it's on the new showrunner - DEVIOUS455 just summed up my review of not just this espisode, but just about every episode in the second half of last season. It's like season 16 had potentital, season 17 started to deliver on that potential and then about halfway through started regressing and now we're back to good ideas that don't quite deliver despite great acting.

I feel exactly the same way. Season 16 was shaky but had some good elements, and Season 17 started off great and improved as it went on (to my surprise). But by the end of Season 17, the show seemed to lose steam. I think the Carisi-centric episode (was it 17x19?) was the last good episode in that season, and even before that we had quite a few duds.

But this season has really started off on the wrong foot, and I do blame the new showrunner because the structure of the episodes is classic Mothership (fo which he used to write). This week's episode disappointed me because the case had so much potential, but the writing failed to live up to it. It's not the cases, it's the character dynamics and the half-and-half format that's the problem, in my opinion. Both of which I blame on the new showrunner, because even when Season 17 faltered with the cases, we still had some solid character interactions.

[katisha]

13 hours ago, GarnetGirl said:

P.S. Kelli Williams was a fantastic guest star, and I want to see Henry Thomas in more things.

I totally agree with this.  Kelli did great work and so did Henry, although it's hard to believe sometimes looking at him now that he's cute little Elliott from E.T.!

So far I'm finding this season underwhelming but I enjoyed this week's episode more than last week's because at least it was actually about a sex crime.  I mean, all procedural cop shops require a massive helping of grains of salt in terms of suspending disbelief at how things are done and how quickly cases are solved, brought to court, etc, but I can't see any circumstance in which a small team of sex crime detectives end up investigating and running after terrorists. Puh-lease!!

[Spartan Girl]

11 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

Crap, what did they do, just dust off "Wrath" from Season 3?  At least Olivia had the good grace to feel sorry for getting that guy wrongfully convicted.  Unlike Fin.

Yeah, but I couldn't bring myself to feel sorry for the guy from "Wrath" because he murdered three people, including an innocent child, just to get back at Olivia.

[skittl3862]

19 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

To any law-knowledgable viewers: Would the time he served for the crime that he did not commit reduce the time he will be serving for the crime he did commit?

Isn't that what Buchanan and Barba were discussing re: the plea deal? That a lesser charge would be less jail time, but combined with his time served, it's still 20 years in prison?

 

16 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

They were playing the Bad Cop role to intimidate a suspect/show him who's boss, not expressing their genuine indifference/schadenfreude at prison rape.

That doesn't make it ok. Did Benson and Stabler ever bad-cop a young female suspect (Hilary Duff, Hayden Panettiere, those types) and say "Oh, you're so pretty, you're totally going to be Big Bertha's bitch in prison!"? I don't recall a single instance, but maybe it may have happened once. But threatening male prison rape was constantly used in interrogations. Cops who work in the sex crimes division especially shouldn't be using rape threats as a intimidation tactic. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by skittl3862

[Princess Sparkle]

5 hours ago, skittl3862 said:

That doesn't make it ok. Did Benson and Stabler ever bad-cop a young female suspect (Hilary Duff, Hayden Panettiere, those types) and say "Oh, you're so pretty, you're totally going to be Big Bertha's bitch in prison!"? I don't recall a single instance, but maybe it may have happened once. But threatening male prison rape was constantly used in interrogations. Cops who work in the sex crimes division especially shouldn't be using rape threats as a intimidation tactic. 

And what makes it worse is that we had an entire episode where Olivia was framed for murder by a former perp, because he was raped in prison and thought Olivia set it up because she threatened him with it during interrogation.  I thought that episode was them putting the definitive capper on that line of threatening in interrogation, but it didn't at all.

This episode proved to me that Kelli Williams' talent was wasted on the dumb storylines they gave her on The Practice.  With the right material, she is excellent - I also thought she did a great job on the Mothership episode Sisters of Mercy.  

I do think the episode would've been stronger if it turned out Sean was innocent.  As others have said, the moral of this episode is "Innocent man exonerated?  Just leave them in prison; they're going to do something criminal now anyway."  This would've been such a better story if it had looked like Sean did it, but he didn't - either make it the fiance who thought he could pin it on Sean, or instead of making Charlie an idiot, make him some criminal buff who's interested in Sean & Melanie's original case and have him rape/murder Ashley because he knew enough to try and pin it on Sean.  OR, make Sean a little grayer to begin with - as in, maybe he was accused of assault previously but was innocent of raping Melanie, so that we have some question as to whether or not he was already capable of the rape and murder of Ashley.  Because part of what made Making a Murderer so interesting (to me) is that while Steven Avery was set up for his initial crime, he was never really that great of a person, which is why everyone so easily believed he could be guilty.  So make Sean a little grayer and have everyone not take stupid pills for the episode, and then you'd have something really good.  

Edited October 1, 2016 by Princess Sparkle
Typo

[Kel Varnsen]

So if the rape kit cleared Sean of that crime from 16 years ago, then who committed that rape? Did they catch that guy?

[The Wild Sow]

Quote

And what makes it worse is that we had an entire episode where Olivia was framed for murder by a former perp, because he was raped in prison and thought Olivia set it up because she threatened him with it during interrogation.

Yes -- that was the "Wrath" from Season 3 that I was talking about.  It was just on USA or Ion last Saturday so it was pretty fresh in my mind!  And he wasn't a "perp" at all; he was ALSO wrongfully convicted and later exonerated.  But so damaged by his incarceration that he went on to commit murder and try to frame Olivia.

But at the denoument, when he was holding his wife hostage, Olivia still offered to help him & said she would testify for him at his trial.  He just looked at her incredulously and said, "There's not going to be a TRIAL!" and went on to basically commit suicide by cop.

[Princess Sparkle]

2 minutes ago, The Wild Sow said:

Yes -- that was the "Wrath" from Season 3 that I was talking about.  It was just on USA or Ion last Saturday so it was pretty fresh in my mind!  And he wasn't a "perp" at all; he was ALSO wrongfully convicted and later exonerated.  But so damaged by his incarceration that he went on to commit murder and try to frame Olivia.

But at the denoument, when he was holding his wife hostage, Olivia still offered to help him & said she would testify for him at his trial.  He just looked at her incredulously and said, "There's not going to be a TRIAL!" and went on to basically commit suicide by cop.

Oh, I wasn't talking about Wrath; I was referencing Perverted in season 11. That's the one where it appears that Olivia has murdered a biker, and her DNA is even on him, but it turns out it's all a frame up from a guy she (rightfully) sent to prison for multiple rapes. When she asks him why he did it, he says that he believed she arranged for him to be raped in prison because she during the interrogation she said he'd be raped in prison because "that's what happens to pretty boys in there. You'll understand what you put those women through."  She then apologizes to him and says she shouldn't have threatened him with rape during the interrogation. That's why I thought that episode would be the final one where they used prison rape as an intimidation tactic, but it definitely wasn't. 

[The Wild Sow]

Oh, wow, I forgot about that one.

[fastiller]

On 9/29/2016 at 6:54 AM, wknt3 said:

 

The Bad:

Fin can't put on a tie for the Vice President? But he can for court? Hell the whole episode is about history, why not go all the way and put him in one of those sharp three piece suits? I know he's gained a few pounds since back in the day, but he could still pull it off and remind Carisi and Barba that he did it first.
That whole intro was very frustrating. Mariska couldn't tolerate having a couple extras up there with her and Biden? We're really supposed to believe that there wouldn't be Deputy Commissioner or Chief up there and Liv would get all the credit? And they didn't really talk about the federal grant program for resolving the backlog. For that matter I could have sworn they've talked on the show before about how NYPD doesn't have the huge backlog problem that so many departments do.
 

How about the Mayor, or Commissioner?  The VEEP is in town and all we roll out for him is s Sergeant?

[Monkeybball]

I gotta disagree with everyone saying that Fin "wrongfully convicted" someone.  We don't know that any false confession was coerced, and they clearly stated that the victim ID'ed Sean (even though she got it wrong).  Fin did his job with what he had, and the justice system failed.  In more ways than one.

[Princess Lucky]

27 minutes ago, Monkeybball said:

I gotta disagree with everyone saying that Fin "wrongfully convicted" someone.  We don't know that any false confession was coerced, and they clearly stated that the victim ID'ed Sean (even though she got it wrong).  Fin did his job with what he had, and the justice system failed.  In more ways than one.

But he could have shown some sympathy, and even some guilt for being involved in the investigation. Fin wasn't a random bystander. It felt very easy, seeing him so free of guilt. But then, maybe it was in character. I don't know.

Also, I gotta say (and this isn't just about Fin), it seemed like the show was trying to say "no point in feeling sympathy for Sean because he actually committed this newest crime, so it's fine that he spent most of his adult life in prison". Like this new crime erased the injustice he suffered. Even though he was victimized in prison (where he should have never been in the first place) and was "made into" a rapist. There was zero sympathy for him. Either for his suffering in prison, or for his current predicament (let alone the wrongful conviction itself). Carisi managed to scrounge up sympathy for a convicted rapist (Michael Rappaport, in the S17 Carisi-centric) but in this episode everyone suspected Sean from the get-go. Only the mother was apprehensive and sympathetic (which was a great touch and tied into Barba's trick, but still).

And, sympathy aside, you'd think the NYPD/the D.A.'s office would want Sean to be innocent, to show they didn't just let a murderer out on the streets. Only Fin made a passing comment about that.

[wknt3]

5 hours ago, fastiller said:

How about the Mayor, or Commissioner?  The VEEP is in town and all we roll out for him is s Sergeant?

Whoa there. She's a lieutenant now, don't be calling her sergeant! I know it's easy to get confused since she's out in the field constantly arresting people, doing interviews, etc. but she is the official permanent CO of the squad now and deserves respect. She is the most perfect special snowflake in the entire NYPD after all!

[fastiller]

11 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Whoa there. She's a lieutenant now, don't be calling her sergeant! I know it's easy to get confused since she's out in the field constantly arresting people, doing interviews, etc. but she is the official permanent CO of the squad now and deserves respect. She is the most perfect special snowflake in the entire NYPD after all!

I honestly didn't know about the promotion,  Apologies LT.   Thanks for correcting the record @wknt3!

[wknt3]

17 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Whoa there. She's a lieutenant now, don't be calling her sergeant! I know it's easy to get confused since she's out in the field constantly arresting people, doing interviews, etc. but she is the official permanent CO of the squad now and deserves respect. She is the most perfect special snowflake in the entire NYPD after all!

 

5 hours ago, fastiller said:

I honestly didn't know about the promotion,  Apologies LT.   Thanks for correcting the record @wknt3!

No problem. As I said it's easy to miss since she still acts like a Sgt. or a detective and the whole issue of rank and unit command (provisional or otherwise) was rather muddled for a few seasons after they decided Dann Florek cost too much and was too old. What is unforgivable (of both of us) is refusing to admit that things like rank are unimportant and that what matters is she is the only one in the NYPD who really understands and fights for the victims as well as grasping the big picture issues. So of course the VP would single out St. Benson of Manhattan.

Edited October 4, 2016 by wknt3
fix formatting

[Monkeybball]

On 10/3/2016 at 1:20 PM, Princess Lucky said:

But he could have shown some sympathy, and even some guilt for being involved in the investigation. Fin wasn't a random bystander. It felt very easy, seeing him so free of guilt. But then, maybe it was in character. I don't know.

Also, I gotta say (and this isn't just about Fin), it seemed like the show was trying to say "no point in feeling sympathy for Sean because he actually committed this newest crime, so it's fine that he spent most of his adult life in prison". Like this new crime erased the injustice he suffered. Even though he was victimized in prison (where he should have never been in the first place) and was "made into" a rapist. There was zero sympathy for him. Either for his suffering in prison, or for his current predicament (let alone the wrongful conviction itself). Carisi managed to scrounge up sympathy for a convicted rapist (Michael Rappaport, in the S17 Carisi-centric) but in this episode everyone suspected Sean from the get-go. Only the mother was apprehensive and sympathetic (which was a great touch and tied into Barba's trick, but still).

And, sympathy aside, you'd think the NYPD/the D.A.'s office would want Sean to be innocent, to show they didn't just let a murderer out on the streets. Only Fin made a passing comment about that.

I get where you're coming from....but I think the difference between Michael Rapaport's character and Sean's is that Rapaport fully admitted to what he did and showed a lot of remorse.  Sean played the victim even after he committed the heinous crime.  And I'm not saying you don't feel sorry for him....it absolutely sucks what he went through.  I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be locked in a cage for 16 years knowing you're completely innocent.  But it's hard to have sympathy for him after he was out for like, a day, and BRUTALLY raped and MURDERED the girl who cared about him.  I mean the way he murdered her was above and beyond.  And again - even when Sean made his statement, it still reeked of "poor me, poor me" and not "CRAP....I let myself become a monster." 

Tbh, aside from Steven Avery, most of the wrongfully convicted men I've heard of come out of prison and lead AMAZING lives after, working to help other wrongfully convicted men and doing talks and things like that.  I don't like this whole idea of "well I went to prison innocent and came out a criminal."  I gotta say, I didn't feel much sympathy for Sean myself.

[Monkeybball]

Btw, did anyone else think that Carisi sticking up for Rollins against Barba so vociferously was foreshadowing of a Rollins/Carisi relationship?

[Princess Lucky]

6 hours ago, Monkeybball said:

I get where you're coming from....but I think the difference between Michael Rapaport's character and Sean's is that Rapaport fully admitted to what he did and showed a lot of remorse.  Sean played the victim even after he committed the heinous crime.  And I'm not saying you don't feel sorry for him....it absolutely sucks what he went through.  I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be locked in a cage for 16 years knowing you're completely innocent.  But it's hard to have sympathy for him after he was out for like, a day, and BRUTALLY raped and MURDERED the girl who cared about him.  I mean the way he murdered her was above and beyond.  And again - even when Sean made his statement, it still reeked of "poor me, poor me" and not "CRAP....I let myself become a monster." 

Tbh, aside from Steven Avery, most of the wrongfully convicted men I've heard of come out of prison and lead AMAZING lives after, working to help other wrongfully convicted men and doing talks and things like that.  I don't like this whole idea of "well I went to prison innocent and came out a criminal."  I gotta say, I didn't feel much sympathy for Sean myself.

I see your point as well. I guess I separate my feelings about Sean before we knew that he was the rapist/murderer, and after. I don't feel anyone except the mother showed him actual sympathy for his initial ordeal (his release was used to prop up Benson for being awesome and helping with the rape kid backlog). Afterwards, I totally agree, I can't really feel sympathy for him. But I also feel Barba's whole argument of "he did this because he never stood a chance after 16 years in prison" defeated the point. If his own (possibly repeated) rape can be used as an argument against him, how responsible can he be? Again, I personally don't really feel for him re; the actual crime he committed, but I didn't like the show's position on that.

6 hours ago, Monkeybball said:

Btw, did anyone else think that Carisi sticking up for Rollins against Barba so vociferously was foreshadowing of a Rollins/Carisi relationship?

I think they'd be cute, but I don't know what they're waiting for. If Carisi regularly(?) cooks for Rollins and takes care of her baby and whatever, for months now, and they still haven't hooked up, that's kinda weird. If I had Carisi at my place, late at night, and he had just cooked me dinner, and he had just tucked in my kid, and the kid was fast asleep, I know I'd be making a move. Amanda needs to get on that. And we need to see it in detail.

Or anyone should get on that. Carisi has never had a love interest of any kind. Come on, show. Give us something.

[Kiss my mutt]

Did they ever do a rape kit on the daughter?  After all the talk about processing kits I thought they would have been right on it. They could have tied up the case in 15 minutes. Maybe I missed something?

I, too, was puzzled why they would have such a friendship with Sean. Even if he were exonerated I don't think I'd take him and his friend "from the inside" out to eat and bring him home and then go to bed leaving him with my daughter. He's not the person he was 16 years ago. How did he form a friendship with the daughter?  I just didn't find this episode plausible unless I just don't understand it. 

[willow2tree]

Kiss my mutt (love your name!), I think the whole bleaching/burning thing was a way to get rid of any DNA evidence.  Or he had the presence of mind to wear a condom.  Or, you know, plot device!

[Kiss my mutt]

5 hours ago, willow2tree said:

Kiss my mutt (love your name!), I think the whole bleaching/burning thing was a way to get rid of any DNA evidence.  Or he had the presence of mind to wear a condom.  Or, you know, plot device!

Aww, thank you willow2tree!  

Thanks for the reply. That makes total sense.  I got hung up on that and kept thinking there must be a reason!