S08.E22: Reunion Part 2

[motorcitymom65]

8 minutes ago, izabella said:

I'm pretty sure Bethy would have handled it COMPLETELY differently if it had been Adam kissing someone else.  I'll bet she would have told Carole immediately.  Bethy wouldn't have told everyone else and the cameras first so they could all get a good laugh about it before setting Carole up to be ambushed on camera with the info.

I agree, but then Carole and Adam have been together for a couple of years, and Lu and Tom about 2 minutes. The whole season was about Tom's questionable behavior. I doubt Beth would have told Lu something about the Count cheating on camera either.  Or Mario on Ramona.  

[Jel]

1 hour ago, janie2002 said:

See I disagree. I think Luann was more worried about her fiance cheating on her. She didn't kill the messenger instead she was listening and trying to get the info. She did seem put off when B said I told Carole and Ramona and they told Sonja. She said so everyone has know all weekend. I think this was just more embarrassing to Luann, they were on this trip to celebrate her upcoming marriage!

I think after seeing the tape and seeing how they laughed about things and B even says later on she deserves it, she is the biggest whore.  That changed her reaction, her taking the time to process this B waited to tell me on camera after laughing about it all weekend.

If i had a friend tell me my husband cheated while crying, i would feel safe.. understood. If I later heard and SAW her making fun of it both before and after telling me, I would feel betrayed again.

I may have dozed off during this part because I remember Bethenny being pretty angst-ridden over the whole thing. She seemed to be quite sick at the thought of having to tell Luann, and also understanding that she was probably the last person she'd (Lu) would want to hear this kind of news from.  But I don't remember any kind of making fun of it at all.

I will have to rewatch those epis I think -- I have clearly missed something.

[KungFuBunny]

36 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I agree, but then Carole and Adam have been together for a couple of years, and Lu and Tom about 2 minutes. The whole season was about Tom's questionable behavior. I doubt Beth would have told Lu something about the Count cheating on camera either.  Or Mario on Ramona.  

If Nicole sent Luanne an IPhone video of Adam of kissing someone on his annual Nicaragua trip, you can bet Luanne would have discussed this with Dorinda and Sonya...and then told Carole - ALL of this on camera (it would have been her I told you so moment)

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

I may have dozed off during this part because I remember Bethenny being pretty angst-ridden over the whole thing. She seemed to be quite sick at the thought of having to tell Luann, and also understanding that she was probably the last person she'd (Lu) would want to hear this kind of news from.  But I don't remember any kind of making fun of it at all.

I will have to rewatch those epis I think -- I have clearly missed something.

Bethy's version of being "sick" about it is when she told Carole afterwards, "At first I felt bad, but then I was like, 'Hey, she's a whore" so I don't feel bad now." 

I'm paraphrasing, but I am quoting the "she's a whore" part and that was a reason for Bethy to not feel bad.  It was on camera, so make sure you notice that when you re-watch and then decide how "sick" Bethy really was to tell Lu.

[Jel]

2 minutes ago, izabella said:

Bethy's version of being "sick" about it is when she told Carole afterwards, "At first I felt bad, but then I was like, 'Hey, she's a whore" so I don't feel bad now." 

I'm paraphrasing, but I am quoting the "she's a whore" part and that was a reason for Bethy to not feel bad.  It was on camera, so make sure you notice that when you re-watch and then decide how "sick" Bethy really was to tell Lu.

Good gravy, I will definitely be on the lookout for that.  Do you happen to remember which epi that was? Part 2? Part 3?

[QuinnM]

Quote

I will have to rewatch those epis I think -- I have clearly missed something.

Let me know if you see it.  I didn't see that at all.  I did see Ramona dancing about with a big grin, then checking her make up and glee face in the mirror.  Both Carole and Bethenny looked a little shocked.

[Jel]

I'm on the case, QuinnM! Will report back.

 

And after I do that, will seriously take a look at getting an actual life ;) Watching these shows once is bad enough, amirite!?

[QuinnM]

Quote

And after I do that, will seriously take a look at getting an actual life ;) Watching these shows once is bad enough, amirite!?

I usually do this for myself but I have a lot of things to do like binge Stranger Things before the under 20 people in my life spoil it.  Fortunately they have never spoiled a Real Housewives yet.  And I seriously don't remember Bethenny gleeful.  I remember thinking at the time that she was shocked at Luanns reaction.  I think B thought it was an engagement for a storyline.  I mean it gave half the cast a story line.  It was a great ploy.

But I could be wrong because I sometimes lose my car keys so I'm not perfect.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

Good gravy, I will definitely be on the lookout for that.  Do you happen to remember which epi that was? Part 2? Part 3?

It's not part of the Reunion.  It was part of the show after Bethy showed Lu the photos.  She was talking with Carole...had to be in Bethy's kitchen since I'm pretty sure it was in a kitchen.  Just her and Carole were there.

[Ki-in]

Bethenny needs to be called out at the reunion for that gross pillow she handed to her driver. She should be ashamed of herself. No woman with an ounce of decency or class would have ever done that. She's filthy and disgusting. I can't imagine ANY of the other women on the show doing that.

[Jel]

1 hour ago, QuinnM said:

Let me know if you see it.  I didn't see that at all.  I did see Ramona dancing about with a big grin, then checking her make up and glee face in the mirror.  Both Carole and Bethenny looked a little shocked.

I  rewatched the relevant bits of the three part episodes involving Lu's engagement party/Miami/Back in NY -- in Miami scenes, Bethenny did appear, to my eyes anyway, to be genuinely upset about having a) the info and b) being the one to tell Lu and c) The fact that he did it.  

The whore comment:

Last episode of the three parter. It's now three days later. Carole stops by Bethenny's apartment. In a TH, Bethenny mentions that she has tried reaching out to Lu, but Lu does not return any of her texts. Then she says, "I'm wondering if I have now become the devil to her."

Bethenny to Carole: I was really upset about having that information, more than I even thought. You know I went through phases of like omigosh she's such a whore, who cares? and she reaps what she sows, but then, she came in the room and she called him and she looked so upset, and I genuinely felt bad, like I actually felt bad , but then she said, "You do this at the Regency, where we go together, where people we know go? Then Bethenny and Carole talk about who cares where it happened, etc.

So, she definitely did say "she's such a whore", but for context, it was after the fact, while Bethenny is now perhaps feeling miffed about Luann not returning her calls.  Does that mitigate it? I don't know.

31 minutes ago, izabella said:

It's not part of the Reunion.  It was part of the show after Bethy showed Lu the photos.  She was talking with Carole...had to be in Bethy's kitchen since I'm pretty sure it was in a kitchen.  Just her and Carole were there.

Thanks Izabella, I found it. (By three parter I meant the three part (ie To be continued and another To be continued final episodes before the reunion)

Edited September 13, 2016 by Jel
Because I typed "sews" instead of "sows". Sheesh.

[zoeysmom]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

Good gravy, I will definitely be on the lookout for that.  Do you happen to remember which epi that was? Part 2? Part 3?

The Finale episode.  When Carole and Bethenny are in the kitchen arranging sushi.  Bethenny was angry that Luann had not returned her texts.

Better yet here is the clip:  http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-8/episode-20/videos/luann-doesnt-like-the-way-this-looks

Edited September 13, 2016 by zoeysmom

[WireWrap]

17 minutes ago, izabella said:

It's not part of the Reunion.  It was part of the show after Bethy showed Lu the photos.  She was talking with Carole...had to be in Bethy's kitchen since I'm pretty sure it was in a kitchen.  Just her and Carole were there.

It was the last regular episode, right after they got back to Miami but before Bethenny's party. You are correct, it was Bethenny talking to Carole in her, B's, kitchen. Bethenny also made similar comments to her friend Sarah, Carole and Ramona in Miami when she was discussing whether or not to tell Luann about Tom/photo. In fact, she, Bethenny, didn't get upset until she saw Luann's reaction to the news, then and only then did she realize that Luann really loves him and that their relationship/engagement was not just for the show but was in fact real.

[janie2002]

2 hours ago, Jel said:

I may have dozed off during this part because I remember Bethenny being pretty angst-ridden over the whole thing. She seemed to be quite sick at the thought of having to tell Luann, and also understanding that she was probably the last person she'd (Lu) would want to hear this kind of news from.  But I don't remember any kind of making fun of it at all.

I will have to rewatch those epis I think -- I have clearly missed something.

Her telling her friend by the pool was giddy.(to me) 

Her telling everyone on camera pretending to be concerned is a hoe move. Then saying in her talking head and again to Carole. She is the biggest whore maybe she deserves it ..... Maybe its not making fun but to me its talking shii. It was all a big production to not look like ahole while doing something aholeish

[janie2002]

27 minutes ago, Ki-in said:

Bethenny needs to be called out at the reunion for that gross pillow she handed to her driver. She should be ashamed of herself. No woman with an ounce of decency or class would have ever done that. She's filthy and disgusting. I can't imagine ANY of the other women on the show doing that.

She is a freaking Millionaire... could the beesh not throw it away and buy a new pillow... they have them at Home Goods. Just saying

[Jel]

7 minutes ago, janie2002 said:

Her telling her friend by the pool was giddy.(to me) 

Her telling everyone on camera pretending to be concerned is a hoe move. Then saying in her talking head and again to Carole. She is the biggest whore maybe she deserves it ..... Maybe its not making fun but to me its talking shii. It was all a big production to not look like ahole while doing something aholeish

If I had to pick (which fortunately I don't) I'd say she was being sincere when she said she felt bad, but I can see how you and anyone else could see it differently. I agree, it is never nice to say, "she's such a whore" in any context.

But Bethenny Frankel is not a person who springs to mind when I think of the word "nice".

[zoeysmom]

1 minute ago, Jel said:

If I had to pick (which fortunately I don't) I'd say she was being sincere when she said she felt bad, but I can see how you and anyone else could see it differently. I agree, it is never nice to say, "she's such a whore" in any context.

But Bethenny Frankel is not a person who springs to mind when I think of the word "nice".

I don't think Bethenny felt bad for Luann or Tom or their engagement, I think she felt bad because she had made light of it earlier and now when it came down to the delivery there was a chance she might not look good.  Plus bethenny pretty much cries about anything.  So her crying means very little.  She also seems to be pretty blasé when she makes others cry-like Luann and Sonja earlier in the season.  Before Luann had a chance to digest and discuss the matter with Tom, Carole and Bethenny were back to criticizing Luann's engagement.  

[janie2002]

Just now, Jel said:

If I had to pick (which fortunately I don't) I'd say she was being sincere when she said she felt bad, but I can see how you and anyone else could see it differently. I agree, it is never nice to say, "she's such a whore" in any context.

But Bethenny Frankel is not a person who springs to mind when I think of the word "nice".

I actually felt like hmm maybe she did start feeling bad about it when she had to tell Luann. It's like gossiping about the guy at work having an affair with his secretary, juicy gossip for the break room, but then his wife shows up with her baby looking for him  with printed out emails from the affair and you finally put a face to the damage and hurt.  After that it's more real and you see how someone is getting their heart broken. 

[zulualpha]

What woman calls another woman a whore?  Why is Tom a "player" and LuAnn's a whore?

Bethenney is unbelievably judgemental.  She's judge jury and executioner for everyone else's behavior except her own which goes totally unexamined.

[janie2002]

14 minutes ago, zulualpha said:

What woman calls another woman a whore?  Why is Tom a "player" and LuAnn's a whore?

Bethenney is unbelievably judgemental.  She's judge jury and executioner for everyone else's behavior except her own which goes totally unexamined.

Can you imagine having sex with B. It'd be rapid talk belittling everything your doing, then she'd laugh in that maniac joker way she does when you try to do anything sexy. 

[straightshooter]

On 9/12/2016 at 8:00 AM, WireWrap said:

The wait staff may have countered Bethenny's claim that Tom/Bunny made out for 1 - 2 hours. He had already admitted to Luann that he had in fact kissed the woman, so the only question remaining was for how long. Yes, there were/are several photos of them kissing but not a 2 hour video of it and according to Bethenny, no second hand info is allowed, so hearing directly from someone at the Regency who witnessed it first hand may have made it a bit less tawdry. Although he still passionately kissed someone other than Luann, which was/is wrong on it's own, making out for 1 - 2 hours makes it look/seem worse IMO.

As far as I'm concerned, it was a kiss hello, a kiss goodbye, and a "please don't go yet" kiss in the middle.  I don't believe for a second that they made out for entire that period of time in front of God and everybody - and for no reason other than it would be very annoying to the "everybody".  

Edited September 13, 2016 by straightshooter

[DelicateDee]

On September 8, 2016 at 4:05 PM, motorcitymom65 said:

One would think, but sadly no. You must have missed the comments earlier that maybe Beth might lose custody of her daughter because she was snitching about the drug use of her co-stars. Apparently the thinking among some was that a judge would yank a kid away from her mother because the mother had co-workers who maybe did drugs. And over the last two years there have been dozens of other situations/edits/things that Beth has said that have had people salivating over the idea that perhaps a judge would look at the footage and actually remove her daughter from her care because of it. People will believe/pray for a lot of bad things, especially when they really hate someone and hope that bad things happen to them. Over a reality TV show. Go figure. 

Giiirrll, you ain't lying.  In the voice of Nene Leakes, the (thirst) hate is REAL!!  And seems to have taken over these boards!   Sigh . . .

[WireWrap]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

 

But Bethenny Frankel is not a person who springs to mind when I think of the word "nice".

Or the words compassionate, caring, concerned, worried, kind, loving, happy, and the list goes on and on! LOL

[motorcitymom65]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

If I had to pick (which fortunately I don't) I'd say she was being sincere when she said she felt bad, but I can see how you and anyone else could see it differently. I agree, it is never nice to say, "she's such a whore" in any context.

But Bethenny Frankel is not a person who springs to mind when I think of the word "nice".

Her concern seemed real to me, but I can also see how others might see it differently. We all take our own perceptions of these gals into each scene, and it plays a role in how we view it. I think at the beginning of this whole deal she didn't think the relationship with Tom was real. I think she became convinced, and Carole played a role in this when she first came into her room and said Lu did seem genuinely happy and in love. I think that Beth started to hate the fact that she had the information if the relationship was the real deal. She felt bad telling Lu, and worse about her reaction to it. Then I think she was shocked by the conversation she heard between Lu and Tom. The fact that Lu seemed more concerned about how it all looked. Once again she was back to that place where she maybe didn't think any of this was real, but just something that Lu had cooked up. Or maybe coked up. 

[Celia Rubenstein]

I tend to doubt that Bethenny cared about hurting Luann's feelings.  And it doesn't really bother me.

The simple fact of the matter is they are not really friends. They are simply castmates on a show which is based on Andy Cohen's misogynistic fantasies about how women constantly fight and stab each other in the back, and at present it's their turn to be adversaries.  Bethenny is a reality show veteran and she understands her job is to make good TV.  Luann is a long-time veteran herself and she should know that when you exploit your relationship for a storyline, it might end up embarrassing or painful.  So I can understand why Bethenny was not overly concerned with how Lu felt and instead she focussed her attention on making sure that bottle of Skinny Girl liquor was featured prominently in every shot.  This show is just a job to her.

What makes Bethenny's apparent lack of concern even less of a big deal to me is the fact that I believe with every fiber of my being that Luann would have done the exact same thing to Carole without giving it a second thought.  All while wearing one of her horrible jumpsuits that she never fails to remind everyone in her blog they can get from Evine.  This show is a job to her, too, make no mistake.

As far as Luann supposedly being so {{{shattered}}} by what she was told, I just have to say "huh?"  Luann wasn't shattered.  Shattered people don't place that first phone call to their fiance to discuss things in front of an audience.  They don't pace around the room talking to him in front of the camera, reciting back his every word so the audience would know what he was saying.  That was such rubbish.  I didn't buy it for a minute.  Lu did managed to pull a convincing "omg no!!! " face for a split second when she told Beth she didn't want to hear anything about Tom (and lord know Bravo played the hell out of it).  But that was IT.  One split second of a realistic look of pain crossed her face ... and then she went right back to the script.  The whole thing was so lame I am still half convinced the entire storyline is a fake.  But to the extent that it was real, sorry  ... Luann just didn't seem all that shattered to me. She seemed kinda pissed her boyfriend had embarrassed her.  And since that is all she really cared about, it makes total sense to me why now Luann was able to quickly forgive Tom and transfer her anger about being embarrassed to Bethenny ... Bethenny put it all on the teevee.

It's a stupid way for Luann to respond and I can see why Bethenny isn't losing any sleep over Luann's hurt feelings.  Or should I say her damaged pride. Because that's all Bethenny did to Luann.  She damaged her pride.  She did not inflict some huge emotional gash in Luann's heart, lol.  I don't think Luann's heart is really involved in this situation at all. 

Edited September 14, 2016 by Celia Rubenstein

[Castina]

15 hours ago, straightshooter said:

As far as I'm concerned, it was a kiss hello, a kiss goodbye, and a "please don't go yet" kiss in the middle.  I don't believe for a second that they made out for entire that period of time in front of God and everybody - and for no reason other than it would be very annoying to the "everybody".  

Not to mention you are at a hotel, there are rooms available. Do people that age really sit in a corner of the bar kissing for two hours when there is a hotel room nearby?  

[ryebread]

22 minutes ago, Castina said:

Not to mention you are at a hotel, there are rooms available. Do people that age really sit in a corner of the bar kissing for two hours when there is a hotel room nearby?  

Apparently really drunk ones do. 

I don't believe it was a 2 hour, non-stop, hardly coming up for air kissing session.  Do I believe they could have sat there for 2 hours with their heads together flirting and kissing and getting so drunk that any time they started kissing it got a little sloppy?  Sure do. 

[zoeysmom]

17 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I tend to doubt that Bethenny cared about hurting Luann's feelings.  And it doesn't really bother me.

The simple fact of the matter is they are not really friends. They are simply castmates on a show which is based on Andy Cohen's misogynistic fantasies about how women constantly fight and stab each other in the back, and at present it's their turn to be adversaries.  Bethenny is a reality show veteran and she understands her job is to make good TV.  Luann is a long-time veteran herself and she should know that when you exploit your relationship for a storyline, it might end up embarrassing or painful.  So I can understand why Bethenny was not overly concerned with how Lu felt and instead she focussed her attention on making sure that bottle of Skinny Girl liquor was featured prominently in every shot.  This show is just a job to her.

As far as Luann supposedly being so {{{shattered}}} by what she was told, I just have to say "huh?"  Luann wasn't shattered.  Shattered people don't place that first phone call to their fiance to discuss things in front of an audience.  They don't pace around the room talking to him in front of the camera, reciting back his every word so the audience would know what he was saying.  That was such rubbish.  I didn't buy it for a minute.  Lu did managed to pull a convincing "omg no!!! " face for a split second when she told Beth she didn't want to hear anything about Tom (and lord know Bravo played the hell out of it).  But that was IT.  One split second of a realistic look of pain crossed her face ... and then she went right back to the script.  The whole thing was so lame I am still half convinced the entire storyline is a fake.  But to the extent that it was real, sorry  ... Luann just didn't seem all that shattered to me. She seemed kinda pissed her boyfriend had embarrassed her.  And since that is all she really cared about, it makes total sense to me why now Luann was able to quickly forgive Tom and transfer her anger about being embarrassed to Bethenny ... Bethenny put it all on the teevee.

It's a stupid way for Luann to respond and I can see why Bethenny isn't losing any sleep over Luann's hurt feelings.  Or should I say her damaged pride. Because that's all Bethenny did to Luann.  She damaged her pride.  She did not inflict some huge emotional gash in Luann's heart, lol.  I don't think Luann's heart is really involved in this situation at all. 

I am wondering if that was truly Tom's first head's up.  I think Luann sent him the pictures when she went to throw up. 

I think there is a certain amount of truth to the kissing/reveal being a storyline.   It was certainly saved up until after the engagement party. How is it that the woman involved, well placed sources at The Regency, Sonja, Dorinda, Ramona, Carole, Jules and the entire production did not make a sound about it for over five months?  I think where things went off script for Bethenny is when Luann stayed with Tom.  I do believe Bethenny just felt like she was losing a slut in Luann to kick around if she went through with the marriage.  My guess is tonight Sonja will take some exceptions with Bethenny and her slut shaming, as it applies to her. 

To me, blaming the messenger has been around for a very long time.  Bethenny chose each step of the way to make it as humiliating as possible for Luann to learn the news.   We don't know what kind of hell Tom had to pay, not everyone is Shannon Beador, and makes the beating public.  Since Bethenny appeared to have been trying to break Tom and Luann up from nearly the onset of their relationship, from the accusation that Luann rolled up on Tom at the Mark Hotel and said, "I am next," (we haven't heard that one again) to publicly announcing Tom had bedded Ramona and Sonja, to make smart ass comments about the engagement, to friending Sonja and getting "the fraud, liar's", side of the story, to telling her friend on camera that she has something that will likely cancel the wedding the day of the engagement party, to telling Carole and Ramona (on camera), to her loaded monogamy question, to her final big reveal, her "just a whore" comment when Luann stop playing with Bethenny, to her final, "you are that woman", and being so snarly about Luann and Tom going through with the marriage.  Luannn had some pretty salient comments when she said the wedding was still 10 months away.  I believe that Bethenny wanted to her "told you so dance" and call the romance the biggest farce just for the show, hold her apple act ever by any RH.  So when Luann didn't follow the script Bethenny had in mind, Bethenny went on the attack.

As the season played out and the intervening months it had to become very apparent to Tom and Luann there was a fair amount of meddling and ill will coming from Bethenny, so absolutely she hurt the two of them, humiliated them and damaged their pride.  And she did with great joy and self-admitted gloating. 

[motorcitymom65]

5 hours ago, ryebread said:

Apparently really drunk ones do. 

I don't believe it was a 2 hour, non-stop, hardly coming up for air kissing session.  Do I believe they could have sat there for 2 hours with their heads together flirting and kissing and getting so drunk that any time they started kissing it got a little sloppy?  Sure do. 

Absolutely. I don't think they were locked in an embrace for two hours. But some heavy kissing, then a break to order another drink, then more kissing, then maybe time for a selfie or two, more kissing, another drink, etc. 

Not at all hard for me to believe. Much more believable then the part about Lu never reading the news clips of Ramona dating her soul mate. 

[Castina]

Ah yes.  The page 3 or 6 or whatever page gossip about Ramona dating Tom.  Wonder how that slipped passed Sonja and she never had a chat with her dear old friend Ramona that she was dating her lover of 10 years.  

It's all such BS.  I'm reminded of an insane drunk Ramona trying to get an even insaner drunker Rey to spill some dirt on Luann at the ill fated dry cleaning event.  Which reminds me that there were issues and standoffs with cast over their salary compared to others that clearly pissed off at least Bethenny (as she was moaning about how replaceable the women were on a nightly talk show).  And then I'm reminded of how Bethenny spit out she knew who Luann was dating and it was Ramona's guy during the fun filled evening in the Berkshires.  It was so obvious from the way B came with that tidbit cocked and ready to fire that her and Ramona had been discussing it which brings me back to Ramona and Rey and I can't help but feel convinced that Ramona and Bethenny blew this up to use it as a hammer on Luann for whatever it is that really bothered them behind the scenes (and I think it had to do with contract negotiations) .  Sonja blurting out that she was FWB with the guy was just a gift she handed B on a silver platter and in return B took Sonja back under her wing and like a good puppy Sonja played it up for the show.    

I don't even think I will watch part 3 tonight because I am so over this ridiculous argument that makes no bloody sense to sane people because in the real world people date and if they don't click they move on and date the next person and it's really not that big a freaking deal.  They are fighting about something else and I don't think I will sit through one more minute of them pretending it's over Tom.   

Andy Cohen and production must have a really low opinion of women in general and I think it's time for me to find another hobby and stop supporting this insanity.  

[zoeysmom]

4 hours ago, Castina said:

Ah yes.  The page 3 or 6 or whatever page gossip about Ramona dating Tom.  Wonder how that slipped passed Sonja and she never had a chat with her dear old friend Ramona that she was dating her lover of 10 years.  

It's all such BS.  I'm reminded of an insane drunk Ramona trying to get an even insaner drunker Rey to spill some dirt on Luann at the ill fated dry cleaning event.  Which reminds me that there were issues and standoffs with cast over their salary compared to others that clearly pissed off at least Bethenny (as she was moaning about how replaceable the women were on a nightly talk show).  And then I'm reminded of how Bethenny spit out she knew who Luann was dating and it was Ramona's guy during the fun filled evening in the Berkshires.  It was so obvious from the way B came with that tidbit cocked and ready to fire that her and Ramona had been discussing it which brings me back to Ramona and Rey and I can't help but feel convinced that Ramona and Bethenny blew this up to use it as a hammer on Luann for whatever it is that really bothered them behind the scenes (and I think it had to do with contract negotiations) .  Sonja blurting out that she was FWB with the guy was just a gift she handed B on a silver platter and in return B took Sonja back under her wing and like a good puppy Sonja played it up for the show.    

I don't even think I will watch part 3 tonight because I am so over this ridiculous argument that makes no bloody sense to sane people because in the real world people date and if they don't click they move on and date the next person and it's really not that big a freaking deal.  They are fighting about something else and I don't think I will sit through one more minute of them pretending it's over Tom.   

Andy Cohen and production must have a really low opinion of women in general and I think it's time for me to find another hobby and stop supporting this insanity.  

From a selfish standpoint I hope you do watch and comment because I enjoy your comments. I think Part 3, from the previews is going to address some of these issues.

To me the big issue is Ramona and Sonja want Tom to recognize them, not marginalize them and all the while calling him a liar.  To make matters worse, they want Luann to call him a liar.  She has been very clear, she does not care what happened BL, before Luann.  If either Sonja or Ramona wants to maintain some semblance of a relationship with Luann and Tom, they need to honor their wishes.   It is like this personal moral failing that Tom doesn't remember the exact number of dates (nor does Ramona 5,6,7,12) and they can't let go of the fact that is just the way it works in the dating world.  Ramona also needs to put away her PI badge and realize, no one has ever thanked someone for digging around in their boyfriend's business.  Luann told her in January and Ramona is still doing it.  Why?  Ramona certainly didn't have the energy to do that with her husband and all the while she was touting how superior her marriage was to everyone else on the planet. 

[Yours Truly]

On 9/9/2016 at 6:02 PM, ZaldamoWilder said:

Absolutely.  And I think by the time he'd been caught in somebody else's clutches he realized that this is the singular best response a liar can offer, as it is irrefutable.  In the meantime though, ole boy wasn't fast enough on his feet.   See this is my whole problem about the Tom thing and the various rubber plausible excuses we could invent - you don't need to remember the truth, it pops right out.  Making up specific and easily checkable inaccurate details is when it goes badly.  That's like every police-coerced confession ever.   He didn't even claim not to remember after he'd told Lu.   On the boat he said it was once.  Ramona threw him a softball and said oh ok Tom now that you're getting married, it was once, let's go with that.   A thinking man liar or not, would've taken that opportunity to say ok mona it could've been more than that, you're cute and all but I just don't recall.   I know whatever Sonja's number is, he's lying on her too.  They can describe each others' bedrooms.

Hell the truth is my number is 757-123-4567 (not really) and even I have to try and "remember" it.. And sometimes I even get it wrong if I'm not careful Truth or not. It's not really a true statement that it's impossible for people to get factual information wrong due to foggy memory. People misremember or can't accurately pinpoint things all the time.

[ZaldamoWilder]

1 minute ago, Yours Truly said:

Hell the truth is my number is 757-123-4567 (not really) and even I have to try and "remember" it.. And sometimes I even get it wrong if I'm not careful Truth or not. It's not really a true statement that it's impossible for people to get factual information wrong due to foggy memory. People misremember or can't accurately pinpoint things all the time.

Maybe.   But the point is you don't replace what's true with non-facts.  

[Yours Truly]

On 9/10/2016 at 3:17 PM, breezy424 said:

Actually, in the conversation Dorinda had with Ro, Dorinda never said that Tom asked her to lie. Ro did. Dorinda said that Tom wanted to bring over two waiters from the Regency and have Dorinda relay what they said to the other women.  Dorinda said that it didn't matter what the waiters said because of the pictures.  In Dorinda's TH, she said that she wouldn't represent them, lie for them or be put in that position.  She's out.

The problem with this for me is that it seems that Dorinda is assuming what these waiters were going to say.  Obviously, because of the two pictures, Tom kissed this woman.  There's no getting around this and I have no doubt that Tom and Lu realized that.  It seemed to me that the purpose of Dorinda meeting with these waiters were to address the one, then two hours of making out that was claimed by Beth through someone else.  Heck, I can understand that Dorinda didn't want any part of the 'meeting' but she was not in a position to assume what the waiters were going to say. 

EXACTLY! No one is pretending that Dorinda DIDN'T say Tom asked her to lie for him.

She ASSUMED there would be some lying involved and then Ramona ran with it. Where in the world does that translate into Tom asked her to lie for him?

The scenario seems clear. He wanted to present Dorinda with a more "accurate" account of what went on for the duration of his flirty, over the boundary episode with the playboy bunny and hoped the details would lighten the pearl clutchy narrative surrounding the pics. Feeble attempt? Reaching for straws? Sure. Sinister plot at forcing someone repeat a lie? HUGE LEAP. But sure. Tom bullied Dorinda to lie... ???? <sigh>

[Yours Truly]

On 9/12/2016 at 1:27 PM, WireWrap said:

Well, we have been married for 38 years so........any breach of our trust would be a giant issue but more so if he were caught making out for 2 hours, so Yes, the length of time does compound the hurt/humiliation. It doesn't negate the fact that he locked lips/tongues with another woman but it does make it worse. I would still be mad/hurt that he kissed someone else but I would be furious/crushed if it was a 2 hour make out session and I would be devastated/getting a divorce if he had had sex with her.

I agree with this. Plus who said damage control made sense? Someone who has made such an error and desperately wants to lessen the wrong scrambling for any little detail to make it that much less damaging isn't some new or unique idea. Doesn't negate the wrong done but it isn't unusual for the culprit to try and lessen the charge if they can and if it may help the situation. 

[Yours Truly]

On 9/12/2016 at 5:04 PM, Celia Rubenstein said:

I can't get with the idea that just because Tom maybe wasn't slobbering all over this bunny woman for quite as long as originally reported somehow makes it much better.

And I don't see what good would be done by convincing Dorinda that fewer people saw them then she thought.  It's not like he wanted her to think no one else knew about so he could beg her to keep it quiet for Luann's sake or something.  He knew that all the housewives knew about it and it was going to be on the show.   I just don't see the point in making it sound like not many people saw them. What difference does it really make how many people saw them?

Actually, the fact that they were kissing openly in front of the whole bar inures to Tom's favor in terms of his claims he was shitfaced and didn't know what he was doing.  If he had been sneakier about it, it would suggest he knew he was doing something wrong.  I don't see the benefit in playing down how openly they were carrying on at all. 

The only possibly evenly slightly honest thing I could imagine the waiters telling Dorinda that would get Tom off the hook even a little was that Tom was blind stinking blackout drunk and had no idea what was happening.  Which is a whole other problem in and of itself (possibly even worse than being a serial cheater) if he has such a problem with alcohol. 

It doesn't. The logic is that Tom may have felt it would help matters. No one has to believe that it would. I can understand his reasoning and Lu's. Agreeing with it is a different story but denying that the thought process was present in this attempt at bringing the wait staff to the table is what keeps tripping things up.

[Yours Truly]

On 9/13/2016 at 9:57 AM, WireWrap said:

Without a doubt, Tom committed the initial (big) offense (cheating) but Bethenny compounded Luann's hurt/humiliation in how she handled this, with Luann being told at the end of the weekend after Bethenny and team kept discussing it on camera over and over again.  Luann realized that Bethenny used this as fodder for the show instead of handling it in private.

and if not privately (c'mon now we now Beth the bitch was gonna flaunt it for the cameras) then at least promptly for crying out loud.

[Yours Truly]

On 9/13/2016 at 11:59 AM, janie2002 said:

See I disagree. I think Luann was more worried about her fiance cheating on her. She didn't kill the messenger instead she was listening and trying to get the info. She did seem put off when B said I told Carole and Ramona and they told Sonja. She said so everyone has know all weekend. I think this was just more embarrassing to Luann, they were on this trip to celebrate her upcoming marriage!

I think after seeing the tape and seeing how they laughed about things and B even says later on she deserves it, she is the biggest whore.  That changed her reaction, her taking the time to process this B waited to tell me on camera after laughing about it all weekend.

If i had a friend tell me my husband cheated while crying, i would feel safe.. understood. If I later heard and SAW her making fun of it both before and after telling me, I would feel betrayed again.

I never understand how this part isn't understood. Sure in the moment she processes things one way but when you see all of the nasty behind the scene shit afterwards who WOULDN'T be pissed to know that you were being joked on behind the scenes while being "comforted" in your face. Add that Lu's not new, once she realized the others also knew and were discussing it I'm sure she didn't even need the footage to understand what the hell was going on and what they were presenting for the camera to catch...

[Yours Truly]

On 9/13/2016 at 4:56 PM, straightshooter said:

As far as I'm concerned, it was a kiss hello, a kiss goodbye, and a "please don't go yet" kiss in the middle.  I don't believe for a second that they made out for entire that period of time in front of God and everybody - and for no reason other than it would be very annoying to the "everybody".  

I love this!!!

Makes sense too..

I never could wrap my head around two adults going on like people have said in a bar. I mean I know it happens. But in this case? I REAAALLLLYYYY find it unlikely.

Especially a man newly engaged and peripheral to a reality show filming a section of his life.

Didn't jive then, doesn't jive now.

[Yours Truly]

51 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Maybe.   But the point is you don't replace what's true with non-facts.  

If I get the numbers wrong then yeah I have....

[ZaldamoWilder]

48 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

If I get the numbers wrong then yeah I have....

Once is a mistake.   Incorrectly restating them several times thereafter is deception.   Either way, your memory isn't to be relied upon.

[film noire]

On 9/13/2016 at 9:27 AM, Jel said:

Thank you, WireWrap.

That makes me think it's more shoot the messenger then. 

Well, but  "shoot the messenger" is when the messenger is completely innocent, and has only delivered the message. 

In this case, Bethenny delivered the message to people who had no right to hear that message (never mind hear it first, hear it at all) resulting in a gossip-toned conversation,  and then made creepy jokes about having to go into "witness protection" once she "delivered the message" (to the woman she claimed to be so worried about, yet! But in that moment, she was all but salivating  like a demented goblin getting off on some bizarre sex act, not showing the care and concern of someone forced to deliver hurtful news). Bethenny is trying to spin this as "shoot the messenger" because people finally see her for what she truly is --  a toxic creature who spreads chaos  wherever she goes, delighting in the harm she causes and the attention she receives  -- but she's no innocent delivering a message, her bitterness *is* the message. Always.

Edited September 15, 2016 by film noire

[Yours Truly]

1 hour ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Once is a mistake.   Incorrectly restating them several times thereafter is deception.   Either way, your memory isn't to be relied upon.

But then I'm off misremembering the next thing. And on and on it goes.

Here's another fun fact about myself, I can dig myself in a hole when I decide I don't need to answer to anyone but still provide information.  I'll never get the details right after that and it shows and I smile smirk and shrug at the discrepancies about information that wasn't nunyabizness in the first place.  I usually don't use this tactic for anything too important tho.

Now, not saying it's the most mature way to handle something and there are different levels to answering questions that you aren't required to answer but I am a firm believer in people holding back when interrogated by inappropriate parties.

Me personally, I wish more people would adopt the "shut it down" philosophy where inappropriate inquires are called out and a simple statement of "I'm not getting into a whole who's who and what's what about this with you" and leave it at that. Answering something when you don't want to tempts you to try to mislead or misdirect the inquisitor with less than complete information. Not necessarily because you are trying to hide something but because it's personal information you don't wish to share.

People confuse refusing to divulge private info with hiding something bad and Lu falls for this public pressure ALL THE TIME. This leads her to play fast and loose with the truth which she thinks isn't wrong since it's her business and she shouldn't have to share it with anyone anyway in the first place. Which is true but then it opens her up to such criticism and paints her as a liar. At least IMO anyway. <shrug>

[ZaldamoWilder]

2 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

I never could wrap my head around two adults going on like people have said in a bar. I mean I know it happens. But in this case? I REAAALLLLYYYY find it unlikely.

Especially a man newly engaged and peripheral to a reality show filming a section of his life.

Which is what would've stopped it from happening at all, if these were factors.

6 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

But then I'm off misremembering the next thing. And on and on it goes.

Here's another fun fact about myself, I can dig myself in a hole when I decide I don't need to answer to anyone but still provide information.  I'll never get the details right after that and it shows and I smile smirk and shrug at the discrepancies about information that wasn't nunyabizness in the first place.  I usually don't use this tactic for anything too important tho.

Now, not saying it's the most mature way to handle something and there are different levels to answering questions that you aren't required to answer but I am a firm believer in people holding back when interrogated by inappropriate parties.

Me personally, I wish more people would adopt the "shut it down" philosophy where inappropriate inquires are called out and a simple statement of "I'm not getting into a whole who's who and what's what about this with you" and leave it at that. Answering something when you don't want to tempts you to try to mislead or misdirect the inquisitor with less than complete information. Not necessarily because you are trying to hide something but because it's personal information you don't wish to share.

People confuse refusing to divulge private info with hiding something bad and Lu falls for this public pressure ALL THE TIME. This leads her to play fast and loose with the truth which she thinks isn't wrong since it's her business and she shouldn't have to share it with anyone anyway in the first place. Which is true but then it opens her up to such criticism and paints her as a liar. At least IMO anyway. <shrug>

Me too.    a.k.a. exercising your right to remain silent.

[jinjer]

The only things that makes me question the "two hour make out session" is the fact that Page Six didn't pick up on it.  Bethenny said over 100 people were in the bar that night.  The Regency is a well known UES hangout.  People knew Tom was engaged to Luann.  Someone would've wanted to leak that to Page Six.  A few kisses over 2 hours while still inappropriate isn't necessarily a 2 hour make out session that would've drawn people's attention.  Luann clearly feels it's ok to move on from this.

[Jel]

On 9/13/2016 at 11:31 AM, QuinnM said:

5 minutes ago, film noire said:

Well, but  "shoot the messenger" is when the messenger is completely innocent, and has only delivered the message. 

In this case, Bethenny delivered the message to people who had no right to hear that message (never mind hear it first, hear it at all) resulting in a gossip-toned conversation,  and then made creepy jokes about having to go into "witness protection" once she "delivered the message" (to the woman she claimed to be so worried about, yet. IN that moment, she was all but salivating  like a demented goblin getting off on some bizarre sex act, not showing the care and concern of someone forced to deliver hurtful news). Bethenny is trying to spin this as "shoot the messenger" because people finally see her for what she truly is --  a toxic creature who spreads chaos  wherever she goes, delighting in the harm she causes and the attention she receives  -- but she's no innocent delivering a message, her bitterness *is* the message. Always.

 

I do think she was innocent in this case though. I rewatched that scene, and I just don't interpret it in the same way. I didn't see gleeful laughing, rather, I read it as laughing at the awkwardness, the OMFG!-ness, of the situation she found herself in, not at the fact that Lu's fiance had cheated.  If I thought she was laughing at Lu there, I'd be really put off by that.

I see her as a damaged, flawed, sometimes hypocritical, bitter person with a very brittle personality and a harsh manner, who really needs to learn that not every nasty thought that crosses her mind needs to be expressed, but much of that I attribute to emotional damage, which causes me to feel compassion for her I guess.  I don't see her as evil or horrible or beast-like, more like an emotionally immature, messed up, and dare I say, somewhat misunderstood woman who wears very heavy armor and lashes out.  

(Yes, I know, my table for one is waiting, and I've been sitting here for a while and am starting to feel a little awkward ;)

[film noire]

19 minutes ago, Jel said:

" I don't see her as evil or horrible or beast-like, more like an emotionally immature, messed up, and dare I say, somewhat misunderstood woman who wears very heavy armor and lashes out.  

(Yes, I know, my table for one is waiting, and I've been sitting here for a while and am starting to feel a little awkward ;)

LOL

Well, let me join you at your table (bringing cocktails, plus appetizers!) I think she's turned savage over the years (for whatever reason -- I think possibly untreated post partum + divorce depression +unresolved childhood scars,  myself) and when that savage rage takes hold, the pleasure/ release she gets from that spewing is on display. That slut shaming gave her pleasure; she enjoyed trying to hurt Luann, and the more stoic Luann became -- talking calmly, showing she was not being hurt -- the more savage Bethenny became.  When you won't honestly deal with your hurt/rage/shame up front, the only other option is attacking others, because that emotion must be vented.  And in that venting, she's become an attack dog.  

I think the woman she used to be would see her current self as a monster, and call her out relentlessly for her selfishness and cruelty. She is devolving and along the way,  the only release she gets is savaging other people's sense of self.  

Edited September 15, 2016 by film noire
spilled my cocktail! where's john when you actually need him?

[ZaldamoWilder]

18 minutes ago, film noire said:

LOL

Well, let me join you at your table (bringing cocktails, plus appetizers!) I think she's turned savage over the years (for whatever reason -- I think possibly untreated post partum + divorce depression +unresolved childhood scars,  myself) and when that savage rage takes hold, the pleasure/ release she gets from that spewing is on display. That slut shaming gave her pleasure; she enjoyed trying to hurt Luann, and the more stoic Luann became -- talking calmly, showing she was not being hurt -- the more savage Bethenny became.  When you won't honestly deal with your hurt/rage/shame up front, the only other option is attacking others, because that emotion must be vented.  And in that venting, she's become an attack dog.  

I think the woman she used to be would see her current self as a monster, and call her out relentlessly for her selfishness and cruelty. She is devolving and along the way,  the only release she gets is savaging other people's sense of self.  

Beautifully stated.   and with that, if ya'll would make room for another chair, I'll gladly bring the golden girls chocolate chip cheesecake and several teaspoons.

[film noire]

12 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Beautifully stated.   and with that, if ya'll would make room for another chair, I'll gladly bring the golden girls chocolate chip cheesecake and several teaspoons.

Yes, please :)

[WireWrap]

3 hours ago, film noire said:

LOL

Well, let me join you at your table (bringing cocktails, plus appetizers!) I think she's turned savage over the years (for whatever reason -- I think possibly untreated post partum + divorce depression +unresolved childhood scars,  myself) and when that savage rage takes hold, the pleasure/ release she gets from that spewing is on display. That slut shaming gave her pleasure; she enjoyed trying to hurt Luann, and the more stoic Luann became -- talking calmly, showing she was not being hurt -- the more savage Bethenny became.  When you won't honestly deal with your hurt/rage/shame up front, the only other option is attacking others, because that emotion must be vented.  And in that venting, she's become an attack dog.  

I think the woman she used to be would see her current self as a monster, and call her out relentlessly for her selfishness and cruelty. She is devolving and along the way,  the only release she gets is savaging other people's sense of self.  

In a nut shell, Bethenny has turned into the type of person she has always hated with a passion. She has surpassed Jill's level of nasty, Kelly's level of crazy and her mother's level of always playing the victim and needing the spotlight on her.