All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[amensisterfriend]

I feel so remiss for forgetting Brian! I tend to adore geeky guys, think a show that celebrated learning and a passion for all sorts of interests as unashamedly GG should have had far more nerd/geeks/etc., and consider Brian one of the sadly few GG characters who I'd genuinely love in real life. So he's easily among my top three GG males, though, honestly, given how unappealing many of the men on this show were, the competition isn't all that stiff ;) 

[Guest]

Nosleepforme, I think a lot of people prefer Season 7 to Season 6, if it makes you feel any better. I'm not one of them. ;)

I agree with much of what you said regarding season 6, except I do like Logan.

[desertflower]

 

I was also annoyed that Rory had such an easy way back into Yale. It would have been much more interesting to see her struggle to keep up with the workload she has to make up and it was also annoying that they had to make Paris even more unpleasant than usual just so Rory would end up as editor of the paper.

Yes! I totally agree. I understand it would not be entertaining to watch Rory just do homework all the time, but sheesh, she just steps back in without missing a beat AND effortlessly takes over the paper. AND finds time to jaunt off to Martha's Vineyard with Logan or to Philly to see Jess. (By the way, when did she learn to cook? In Martha's Vineyard she's in the kitchen making all sorts of stuff. She certainly didn't pick any of that up from Lorelai!)

[takalotti]

Yes! I totally agree. I understand it would not be entertaining to watch Rory just do homework all the time, but sheesh, she just steps back in without missing a beat AND effortlessly takes over the paper. AND finds time to jaunt off to Martha's Vineyard with Logan or to Philly to see Jess. (By the way, when did she learn to cook? In Martha's Vineyard she's in the kitchen making all sorts of stuff. She certainly didn't pick any of that up from Lorelai!)

AND still graduates on time. Please.

[Guest]

Yes! I totally agree. I understand it would not be entertaining to watch Rory just do homework all the time, but sheesh, she just steps back in without missing a beat AND effortlessly takes over the paper. AND finds time to jaunt off to Martha's Vineyard with Logan or to Philly to see Jess. (By the way, when did she learn to cook? In Martha's Vineyard she's in the kitchen making all sorts of stuff. She certainly didn't pick any of that up from Lorelai!)

Because she and Logan were in Martha's Vineyard all the time. Cooking! And going to the gym!  Because despite the fact that we hadn't heard of them going at all or of them having all kinds of time, they were off in a parallel universe doing so.

[Kohola3]

You gotta wonder if the new writers had ever even seen any of the previous episodes.  Or did they just figure we were too dense to remember what happened in the previous seasons.

[dustylil]

I had no problem with Rory's apparent enthusiasm for cooking. She had been used to good food from an early age through the Independence Inn, her mother's friendship with Sookie and her later connection with Richard and Emily. Given that Lorelai herself didn't cook, Rory was not exposed to the frequently tiresome ritual of figuring out what to prepare each evening for supper. Food was fun and enjoyable for her. Preparing it might be so as well - particularly in a well equipped kitchen with an unlimited  food budget.

Of course, whether this interest in culinary pursuits would last once she was out on her own and it was just one more domestic chore is another matter entirely.

 

Kohola3, I recall reading at the start of the seventh season how diligently the new showrunners had immersed themselves in the previous seasons. That in the first episode they had Luke seemingly forget he had previously been married on shipboard made me doubt this.

[desertflower]

I just started season 7, which I've seen bits and pieces of in the past but this will be my first complete watch. So far I don't think the tone is too far off, despite the change of showrunners/writers. The general spirit is there. I did get bothered though, at a remark Sookie makes when Lorelai is telling her she and Luke broke up. Sookie says, "Well I know he's been kind of a jerk lately, ..." After just finishing season 6 and having it fresh in my mind, I don't really see how Luke was being a jerk. He made the wrong call waiting to tell Lorelai about April, but then apologized profusely for it. He requested some time to develop a relationship with April, but I don't recall him ever demanding that Lorelai keep her distance. Well, he does before April's party but he admits it's because he's scared April will like Lorelai better. Yes, he wants to slow down the wedding plans, but that was after Lorelai suggested it. He asked several times if she's ok with it and she says yes. Maybe he's a little blind to the fact that Lorelai is actually bothered by it, but she is not offering up any info to suggest otherwise. He tries calling her repeatedly and visiting the house and she HIDES and doesn't return his calls. Instead she stuffs it in until she's so upset that she springs the ultimatum on him. He hesitates and she instantly sleeps with Christopher. Luke does not seem to be the jerk here! I know it was just a casual remark from Sookie but it bothered me that they seem to be setting up Lorelai as the victim.

[Taryn74]

^ A thousand times yes!!!

 

I really, really hoped Lorelai's impromptu "therapy session" would lead to her realizing that she HAD been shutting Luke out and not telling him how she really felt about the April/Anna situation (because she had the whole thing about how her parents never talked about anything and she talks about everything and gets it all out in the open - uh, no you don't Lor, not with this anyway).  But no.  It was all poor little me, I'm the victim here, why can't I ever get what I want, wah wah wah.

 

(Sorry.  Bitter.)

[solotrek]

I just started season 7, which I've seen bits and pieces of in the past but this will be my first complete watch. So far I don't think the tone is too far off, despite the change of showrunners/writers. The general spirit is there. I did get bothered though, at a remark Sookie makes when Lorelai is telling her she and Luke broke up. Sookie says, "Well I know he's been kind of a jerk lately, ..." After just finishing season 6 and having it fresh in my mind, I don't really see how Luke was being a jerk. He made the wrong call waiting to tell Lorelai about April, but then apologized profusely for it. He requested some time to develop a relationship with April, but I don't recall him ever demanding that Lorelai keep her distance. Well, he does before April's party but he admits it's because he's scared April will like Lorelai better. Yes, he wants to slow down the wedding plans, but that was after Lorelai suggested it. He asked several times if she's ok with it and she says yes. Maybe he's a little blind to the fact that Lorelai is actually bothered by it, but she is not offering up any info to suggest otherwise. He tries calling her repeatedly and visiting the house and she HIDES and doesn't return his calls. Instead she stuffs it in until she's so upset that she springs the ultimatum on him. He hesitates and she instantly sleeps with Christopher. Luke does not seem to be the jerk here! I know it was just a casual remark from Sookie but it bothered me that they seem to be setting up Lorelai as the victim.

Amen.

 

How dare Luke not read Lorelai's mind? How dare he not construe her "everything's ok" as "holy shit I'm not ok with this"? Luke may have handled things poorly at times, but Lorelai not communicating her issues until her ultimatum was what ended their engagement. As my husband says to me, use your words, it's going to save us from a lot of problems.

[dustylil]

Personally, I thought Lorelai should have dumped him several months earlier after his conduct at their dinner with Sookie and Jackson concerning Christopher's phone call and when he insisted on that "no secrets" pact for the two of them. One-sided as it turned out to be. But I recognize I am in a tiny minority.

Edited October 13, 2015 by dustylil

[amensisterfriend]

Personally, I thought Lorelai should have dumped him several months earlier after his conduct at their dinner with Sookie and Jackson concerning Christopher's phone call and when he insisted on that "no secrets" pact for the two of them. One-sided as it turned out to be. But I recognize I am in a tiny minority.

 

Heh---I'm in an even tinier minority who thinks they never should have gotten back together after he stormed out of her parents' wedding reception like a temperamental toddler, leaving her without a ride or cab fare, and then proceeded to ignore and freeze her out afterwards, declaring that he was probably going to just give up on the entire relationship without even letting her explain the situation. (Very little of which was her fault, by the way---even the most passionate Lorelai haters can't expect her to be responsible for Emily and Christopher's ridiculousn behavior). I personally think that Luke is an angry, clueless, miserable boor who had basically zero romantic compatibility and chemistry with Lorelai. I found him far more likable before they got together and when he was interacting with other characters. And I don't think the admittedly VERY flawed Lorelai is the worst human being ever and culpable for all of their many relationship woes. We're a definite minority in this corner of the cyber-world, but we're not alone :)   

Edited October 14, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Guest]

I don't know that I agree they should have never gotten back together, but I do think that incident should have led to intense groveling on Luke's part.  (Actually both that incident and the one dustylil mentioned.) You don't get to play the role of a petulant toddler and not have to apologize to your partner... unless you're a man on the Gilmore Girls.

[amensisterfriend]

You don't get to play the role of a petulant toddler and not have to apologize to your partner... unless you're a man on the Gilmore Girls.

 

LOL---I need this on a t-shirt! It's so very, sadly true: Luke, Dean, Jess, Chris, Richard, Zach and nearly every other GG male...AS-P was big on weirdly excessive amounts of bitterness, petulance, anger and jealousy as acceptable and even desirable traits in males. And she somehow seemed to believe that whenever these behaviors were on display, it was the females who should nervously apologize to the males in question! For such an ostensibly feminist show, AS-P had some bizarre ideas about modern day romance. I shudder to think that some of what we saw on screen may have been a reflection of her dynamic with her husband :)  

[Guest]

For someone so stridently feminist, there are so many things wrong with Gilmore Girls as it relates to gender relations. This is not a thorough list by any means, but some initial thoughts:

 

1) Richard causing a car accident with Emily because she dared date another man.  Not only that he did this, but that it was the impetus for their reunion.  Even low speed car accidents can cause a lot of damage to one's health. He should have been in jail for assault and reckless endangerment.  

 

2) Luke's decision to punch Christopher for sleeping with Lorelai - if you look at it, what he really was saying there was that Christopher was to blame for a decision Lorelai made about her sex life that he didn't agree with.  Lorelai's vagina is not Luke's to control. If you subscribe to the thinking that Lorelai made a mistake sleeping with Chris, that was still her decision to make.  Luke doesn't need to be the protector of Lorelai's virtue.

 

3) Similarly, in Wedding Bell Blues, Luke and Christopher both yelling at Logan, threatening Logan, etc. for making out with Rory was very paternalistic and again seemed to feed into the idea that women are delicate flowers who need men to guard their purity.  How very Victorian of them.

 

4) Jackson and Sookie and all things related to their family planning or not planning - the thought that either party could feel they can order the other to consent to a surgical procedure is sickening.  So is letting your partner think that birth control has been completely handled when it has not.  Bodily autonomy is a big principle for many feminists.  You would think that ASP would have respected it a little more.

[JayInChicago]

Luke's behavior towards Dean was often absurd and territorial as well.

[FozzyBear]

Regarding Luke and Lor postponing the wedding; It bugged me so much that neither of them just said "Let's do it June of next year. That gives April a whole year to get to know us and be a part of the wedding." A year and a half is still a pretty normal engagement length, it gives Luke time to settle into having April in his life,it gives April time to feel like she's part of Luke, Lor, and Rory's family, and gives Lor a date she can plan on and tell people about and maks her secure in the fact that they were planning to get married. Of course that would have required one of the adults in the Lor/Luke/Anna debacle to act like an actual adult so that wasn't going to happen. Instead we're left with the idiocy that leads to Lor's ultimatum.

[desertflower]

Amen to your whole post, FozzyBear. Luke never said he didn't want to marry her at all, he just wanted a little time to adjust to everything. They totally could've talked it through and made a plan. And I'm sorry, but Anna telling Lorelai she couldn't talk to April until they were married was just dumb. I understand not wanting your kid to get attached to someone who then leaves, but come on. But you know then again, maybe Anna was very intuitive and sensed Lorelai was a flight risk!

You know what little tidbit got totally dropped? There's a scene where Lorelai finds out her mother put a wedding announcement in the paper, and her relatives start calling to congratulate her. I thought that would lead to a big showdown with Emily but nothing became of it. Surely after the wedding was postponed Emily would've bitched and moaned about being embarrassed. But there was nothing.

I did like how Emily put her hand on Lorelai's shoulder after Lorelai said she didn't think the wedding was going to happen. (The day she had to drive Emily around.) That was the most warmth Emily ever showed her.

[takalotti]

Random thought...

If Rory got married, who do you think would walk her down the aisle?

1) Chris

2) Luke (assuming he and Lorelai are indeed a couple)

3) Lorelai

4) No one, she walks herself down.

[dustylil]

I would think she should walk her own damned self down the aisle! Can't she do anything on her own?

(Hmm, I appear to be channelling Wanda Sykes.)

 

Seriously though, yes. She should walk alone. As an independent woman beginning a new life.

 

Although, if she wanted to be sentimental and honour her mother, I could accept Lorelai walking her.

 

As to Christopher and Luke, they both have a limited place in these proceedings. Perhaps they have

another slap fight in the town square.

Edited October 23, 2015 by dustylil

[Guest]

5) she would be carried on the shoulders of those around her. Walking is for mere mortals.

[txhorns79]

5) she would be carried on the shoulders of those around her. Walking is for mere mortals.

 

I presume the little birds that dress her in the morning would carry her. 

[takalotti]

I could see Emily really pushing for (1) Chris, because ... tradition.

I think Rory SHOULD (4) walk herself down, but in reality I just don't think she's the type of independent personality to do that. She'd probably feel like she was offending someone and people-pleaser Rory wouldn't be okay with that.

So I think in all likelihood, it would be (3) Lorelai.

[solotrek]

In the unpopular opinion thread they're discussing the Pledge in Multiple languages remark by Jess. It got me thinking, what were the 6 languages it was in, 2 of which Jess has never heard of?

 

Possibilities:

1. English
2. Spanish
3. French
4. Italian
5. Mandarin or Canto
6. Korean (because of the Kim's?)

These are pretty common languages within the US, but as a New Yorker, I can't see Jess not hearing of any of these even if he couldn't recognize them. 

 

Languages Jess might not have heard of that could be possible:

1. Urdu
2. Tagalog (I know that it's considered a dialect and not the language itself, but I've heard a lot of Filipino's just say they're speaking Tagalog)
3. Creole
4. Sinhala
5. Bengali
6. Lao
7. Tetum
8. Pashto

Honestly, it's hard to think of languages that someone as well read as he is to has not heard of. And the ones that I have listed seem pretty far fetched to use.

[takalotti]

So, I might be overthinking here, but when Jess heard the various PoAs, do we think maybe they just recited all of them without stating the name of each language?

So the two he's never heard of, maybe he'd know their names but wouldn't have been able to recognize them just by being spoken?

[dustylil]

Given this is Stars Hollow, I'd like to think that one of the languages in which the Pledge of Allegiance was recited was Yiddish.

Whether the little putz recognized it is another matter entirely.

[Aloeonatable]

I think he was exaggerating. No school would say the pledge in any other language. Maybe it was international week. Some schools celebrate the heritage of its students with them sharing their culture and traditions. 

[Guest]

I think he was exaggerating. No school would say the pledge in any other language. Maybe it was international week. Some schools celebrate the heritage of its students with them sharing their culture and traditions. 

 

Agreed. I don't think him saying they say it in "X" number of languages really means they say it in that many.

[takalotti]

I agree there was some exaggeration, but I have a hard time believing they only said the PoA in English, and then when griping to Luke with "What do you want from me? I'm stuck in this weird place," he completely invented that example of how SH was weird. There'd be plenty of other things for him to reference without needing to make something up.

I'll buy either that they regularly say it in 2-3 languages (all of which he has heard of, so the 6 and 2 part of his comment was an exaggeration), or that it was International Week (so his comment was literally true, but not the regular routine).

[alexa]

I just saw the episode where Jess came to visit Rory in season 6, and their dinner out was disrupted by Logan.  I think that was a missed opportunity -- it would have been nice to see the dinner between the two characters as their relationship kind of deserved that after their abrupt ending.  I am not a big Jess/Rory person, but this is a much better Jess and I would have liked to see more from that episode than Logan acting like a jealous pig.  That wasn't really very interesting at all.

[takalotti]

I would have liked to see more from that episode than Logan acting like a jealous pig.  That wasn't really very interesting at all.

But if a man doesn't act like a jealous pig, how else will we know he loves his woman? /sarcasm

[Guest]

But if a man doesn't act like a jealous pig, how else will we know he loves his woman? /sarcasm

 

If he endangers her life by running her over with a car... duh. /sarcasm

[candall]

Random thought...

If Rory got married, who do you think would walk her down the aisle?

1) Chris

2) Luke (assuming he and Lorelai are indeed a couple)

3) Lorelai

4) No one, she walks herself down.

Oh, right, like Lorelei would ever let THAT happen without her.

Edited November 11, 2015 by candall

[Eeksquire]

Aw... until the sad demise of Edward Herrmann, I would have liked to have thought that Grandpa would have walked Rory down the aisle.  They always had such a nice relationship.

[Smad]

Aw... until the sad demise of Edward Herrmann, I would have liked to have thought that Grandpa would have walked Rory down the aisle.  They always had such a nice relationship.

It certainly would make for a nice scene if they marry Rory off in the revival. Have Rory mention that she always thought her grandpa would do that and now that he's gone she won't accept a substitute and walk down the aisle alone.

[alexa]

I am watching the Martha Vineyard episode. So annoying--Rory acting all like she is a cook now and goes to the gym? It comes out of nowhere.

[dustylil]

Going to the gym gave me pause too. But not the cooking. She and Paris had shared an apartment for awhile and now she was living with Logan. There was no sign of a resident cook in either apartment so I figured they would take turns cooking the basics. Isn't that fairly common for students no longer living on campus?

As to Rory's apparent enthusiasm for culinary pursuits, I commented about it earlier on this page. And that kitchen in the house on Martha's Vineyard was pretty spiffy.

[alexa]

I don't know-- the storylines never really indicated cooking much even at school or when she visited her mom at home. But who knows.

[stopthestatic]

It was certainly odd.

 

We know Rory wasn't the best at cooking. Unless you count radiator quesadillas ;)

[dustylil]

I don't think Rory cooked at home either. Otherwise Lorelai would not have been so surprised at her culinary competence. However, while she was at Yale - and not living in residence - it just seemed logical to me that she (like millions of students all over North America before her) would pick up some cooking fundamentals.

 

Of course, it is not as if Rory had never cooked before. In that first season episode where the sanctimonious Lorelai and Rory confused the highly regarded actress (and later political activist) Donna Reed with the homemaker character Donna Stone, Rory prepared dinner for Dean while kitten sitting at Babette's. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by dustylil

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I really don't understand the problem with Rory cooking. For one, they were on a mini vacation so it might be something they do as novelty. Maybe, they do it as a way to spend time together. Maybe, unlike Lorelai who can't even stir a freaking pot without complaining, Rory doesn't mind contributing a little. I mean she's at a freaking vacation house with her billionaire boyfriend who is fitting her every bill. She can make some mashed potatoes and salad every once and a while to contribute something. That's just being a decent partner in a relationship.

[Guest]

I really don't understand the problem with Rory cooking. For one, they were on a mini vacation so it might be something they do as novelty. Maybe, they do it as a way to spend time together. Maybe, unlike Lorelai who can't even stir a freaking pot without complaining, Rory doesn't mind contributing a little. I mean she's at a freaking vacation house with her billionaire boyfriend who is fitting her every bill. She can make some mashed potatoes and salad every once and a while to contribute something. That's just being a decent partner in a relationship.

I don't think it is a disconnect that she is willing to cook. I think it's more her seeming comfort with everything in the kitchen. Garlic press, lemon zester, etc.  It just went along with the weirdness of the whole episode - her complete comfort in the kitchen, talking about their normal routine at the Vineyard, etc. when before it sounded like they were far too busy to be jaunting off to the Vineyard multiple weekends. It just all felt off to me.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

 

I don't think it is a disconnect that she is willing to cook. I think it's more her seeming comfort with everything in the kitchen. Garlic press, lemon zester, etc.  It just went along with the weirdness of the whole episode - her complete comfort in the kitchen, talking about their normal routine at the Vineyard, etc. when before it sounded like they were far too busy to be jaunting off to the Vineyard multiple weekends. It just all felt off to me.

 

For me I believe it, because Rory is a quick learner with an excellent memory and most of that stuff isn't that difficult to learn. I can imagine she would offer to lend a hand the first time and gradually gotten comfortable with the small things she seemed to be in charge of and probably made a game of it. It might of been a nice special little way they spent time together while there.

 

I do however, agree that this episode overall should not exist.

[ghoulina]

For me I believe it, because Rory is a quick learner with an excellent memory and most of that stuff isn't that difficult to learn. I can imagine she would offer to lend a hand the first time and gradually gotten comfortable with the small things she seemed to be in charge of and probably made a game of it. It might of been a nice special little way they spent time together while there.

 

Agreed. It's likely that Rory had no cooking knowledge because growing up Lorelei never even attempted it. But that doesn't mean there wasn't an interest or natural aptitude lurking under the surface. Maybe Logan liked to cook and she started by helping out and actually got pretty decent at doing some things. I do think she is a quick learner and may have picked a lot up after only a few times. Maybe she discovered she really liked it. 

 

I do agree with the others that the gym part was highly irregular, and the episode as a whole is painful to watch. 

[eledgy]

 

I do however, agree that this episode overall should not exist.

 

This is my favorite comment ever!  

[DisneyBoy]

I just watched the second season episodes "Hammers and Veils" and "Red Light" and was awestruck by just how true some of your observations about Amy's writing really are...now that we can look back in hindsight.

Specifically, how strangely the men are written. First we have Max, who never seems entirely comfortable with what he's actually saying. As much as I like him, the actor always seems to deliver his lines as though Max is trying to convince himself that what he's saying is true. If this were any other show I would think that Max is trying to misrepresent himself with Lorelei as her Mr. Perfect to get her insurance money when she kicks it. Or is in the closet. Or just a psycho. There's something less than 100% genuine with him in a way that is really striking when you compare it to the authenticity of the performance Lauren Graham gives.

Then we have Dean, who I always gave a lot of slack to because I figured he really cared about Rory and as a teenage boy in a completely chaste relationship was bound to have some pent up frustrations. During their fight about extra curricular activities, however, some things become very clear...and very clear indicators of what's to come. Rory is clearly using her need to make lists and stress herself out as a way to disregard Dean's needs. I don't know any girl who loves her boyfriend but just happens to want to put off spending time with him after a big break up to write lists. On a Saturday. Dean was no fool to comment on her willingness to leave him high and dry for the sake of "Harvard" aka the dream life she would rather be leading. On the other side, though, Dean is completely disinterested with Rory's goals and making a mountain out of a molehill. So what if she isn't free that particular evening, Dean? Play it cool man! Or suggest some kind of volunteering that you two could do together. Or at the very least, permit her her little irrational freak out and then let her come back to you after she's given it a little bit of consideration and taken a deep breath. It's fine to be disappointed that she's blowing you off, because she really is doing it for reasons that I don't even think she fully understands yet, but there is a sense of possessiveness in Dean's reaction that is very disturbing. By the end of the episode he gets what he wants, which appears to be Rory leaning on his shoulder and allowing him to feel like a Big Man. That clearly isn't much, and while it may be enough for a teenager temporarily speaking, I don't expect that to last.

In short, I'm not surprised Dean basically insisted on making love to Rory a few years down the road. The guy was obviously trying to live out the fantasy he'd been carrying with him prior. And I also find it kind of hilarious that Amy really thanks Dean would be contented with just sitting on a park bench. I'm not saying he's a hound dog or anything, but let's be realistic. Dean is a handsome guy and Rory is gorgeous. At some point he was going to get really tired of dorky movie nights and sitting on park benches. And if he wouldn't, and just holding Rory was enough, that's even weirder. It's like he just wants to physically hold her by him. Like she's his purse dog or something. Or a trophy.

And then there's Lorelai and Christopher. I never realized just how immature and transparently desperate Lorelei's phone call to Christopher at her bachelorette party really was. I tip my hat to Lauren Graham for playing out all of the emotions and rationalizations in her voice and on her face as Lorelei lies to herself that calling Christopher to tell him about her engagement isn't also about indulging the fantasy that he would want to swoop in and take her back before some other man claims her. And Christopher on the other end of the phone line knows exactly what's up. He smugly smiling to himself the entire time, like a withholding teenage boy who has the girl in the palm of his hand and calling him up and flirting obviously, because he knows exactly what Lorelei is after. He's just too self-involved to get real about what Lorelei is attempting and call a spade a spade. He just takes it all as a massive compliment, smiles to himself and probably figures Lorelai will be calling him up again soon for more rescuing or attention. I can understand Lorelei starting to freak out about the wedding and acting irrationally, but you would think Christopher would either be her friend and get honest with her about why she called and try to explore whether or not she's really okay, or jump at the chance to beg her not to get married and recommit himself to their relationship. Instead, he sits back without a care in the world and treats it all as one massive ego stroking session. Gross. Why should we be thinking this guy is a catch for Lorelei again? Why should we be rooting for him? Why does Lorelei keep giving him chances? It's in this scene that I really see how clearly both characters regress into a juvenile state when around each other. They play so many stupid games. Christopher is that guy, that frat boy at the party who is happy to smile at the girl flirting with him and will even sleep with her, but very deliberately never asks for anything just so that he can walk away as though the girl was the one pulling all the strings. He really is a reflection of everything I hated about Logan years down the line.

Such a shame we never got to see anyone point out how Lorelei would fall for many of Logan's tactics when they are offered up by Christopher. But then, Rory would have to admit she's attracted to a younger version of her father, which is a little disturbing for such a family show even though I 100% feel that's exactly what Amy ended up doing.

Lastly we have Luke, who poo-poos marriage publicly the same way a five-year-old would loudly declare that girls have cooties and kissing is gross. Could he be any more transparent either? I get that grown people still act like children when they are flirting or in love, but there really isn't much appealing about the way these adults court each other. If self-assured independent woman Lorelai Gilmore couldn't walk up to Luke and just ask him out after a couple of these blatant hints I just don't know what the hell is the matter with her. And what's more, why is it we could never see Lorelei actually make the first move and ask a guy out? She totally seems like the kind of woman who would be completely fine with that, but then there's also her massive ego to take into account. Showing Lorelei take the leap of faith to court a worthy guy would have been so refreshing rather than seeing her expecting them to chase her, like she's some super model goddess and asking a man out is only for those homely desperate women. No wonder Rory always expected the boys to come to her and fight over her. Is that really such a great way to go about having relationships? It seems in all of modern pop culture, the women are still expected to be pursued rather than do the pursuing.

I do understand Luke's anger over Christopher's voice message in season 6 because Lorelai is never ever honest about how she feels about Christopher. I realize Amy was probably trying to keep some dramatic tension in the series, but Lorelei always left the door open for Christopher to walk through if he ever chose to, and that's a pretty awful reality to be faced with when you are pledging your love and your life to a woman you pined for for 7 years. At a certain point, Luke is entitled to demand she either choose him or go off and make it happen with Christopher. I don't think their argument was entirely about the fact that she had the voice message as much as it was about the fact that Lorelai always keeps her Christopher card tucked up her sleeve as a backup and acts like that's all on Chris. And Luke, "all-in" Luke, was telling her to knock it off and tear it up or cut him loose.

And of course the way the show ended up concluding at the end of Amy's tenure and in the final season, Luke was completely justified to feel that way. I personally don't believe Lorelei would cause so many problems over the whole April thing and then run off and sleep with Christopher. That will never be part of the show's cannon as far as I'm concerned. That was all born out of a need to create drama as the show neared its end. And it pretty much demolishes Lorelei's credibility for me when it comes to the subject of finding true love, because she screwed over Max to give herself more time to see if Luke or Chris would chase her, then got screwed over by Chris, chose to do nothing on the Luke front, then screwed over Jason for Luke, and screwed over Luke for Christopher. Annoying! As gross as her dialogue in the final episode of the series is, about "giving Luke chances and him doing nothing", it is pretty much hitting the nail on the head. She expects the men to make the moves and is irritated when they don't even though she's perfectly capable of expressing her needs and wants herself. How do you go through all of your thirties acting this way!?

It wasn't fair that Lorelei never confessed that on some level she would revert to being 16 when the subject of Christopher came up. I really wish someone could have told her how truly sad that was given who Christopher actually turned out to be all along.

Wow... that's more than I intended to say, but I was really blown away by how differently I felt about the content of these episodes given the behavioral patterns that emerged as the series developed.

I think in reality, Lorelei would have been pegged as an emotional manipulator and eventually found little more than a couple of One Night Stand guys knocking on her door, Max probably would have shown up at her house screaming like a lunatic and ripping her a new one for messing up his plans, and Emily herself might have called Lorelai out on the Christopher issue, realizing that his "good breeding" doesn't amount to much if his parents are jerks and he's a smug entitled douche.

Edited November 27, 2015 by DisneyBoy

[Nancybeth]

Just started S7 in my first GG rewatch, and it occurs to me that it was only a year between Lorelai proposing to Luke, and then Lorelai breaking up with Luke because she was "tired of waiting."  They got engaged in the first episode of S6, which took place sometime vaguely in the late spring/early summer.  And then I don't think they had even passed their original wedding date of June 3 (which, of course, they had already decided to postpone) when they broke up.  I guess maybe her point was that she was tired of waiting for some kind of resolution to the April situation, or maybe a rescheduled wedding date, but still...I don't quite get her extreme angst and anger.

[Eyes High]

Damn, DisneyBoy, tell us how you really feel! Your post is very perceptive, though.

 

there is a sense of possessiveness in Dean's reaction that is very disturbing

 

A number of posters have pointed to Dean's possessiveness as a red flag. You're darn right that it's disturbing.

 

He really is a reflection of everything I hated about Logan years down the line.

 

Yes. That is Christopher in a nutshell.

 

But then, Rory would have to admit she's attracted to a younger version of her father, which is a little disturbing for such a family show even though I 100% feel that's exactly what Amy ended up doing.

 

It was so obvious, though! It was weird that ASP walked all the way up to the "Rory's dating her dad" line, invited the audience to walk over the line, but scrupulously avoided having any characters point out the glaringly obvious. If this were a different type of show, I have no doubt that a character would have casually mentioned to Rory that she was dating a younger version of her father.

 

I get that grown people still act like children when they are flirting or in love, but there really isn't much appealing about the way these adults court each other.

 

To be fair to Luke, once he did accept that he was in love with Lorelai for realsies near the end of Season 4, he did set about courting her in a reasonably adult fashion (although he didn't respond well when he thought Lorelai wasn't following the "script"). Luke was a disaster in romantic relationships, though, don't get me wrong.

And what's more, why is it we could never see Lorelei actually make the first move and ask a guy out? She totally seems like the kind of woman who would be completely fine with that, but then there's also her massive ego to take into account.

 

As you have shrewdly pointed out, this show could be very regressive when it came to gender relations and in particular dating and sex: Lorelai being pleased that she got the "good kid" when she learns of Paris' dalliance, the presentation of preference for casual sex as a character flaw to be "cured," the men pursuing the women romantically, etc.

Is that really such a great way to go about having relationships?

 

Practically speaking, if you wait for guys to chase you, you run the risk of ending up with a guy who's more interested in the chase than the relationship. That also leaves out a lot of sweet but painfully shy guys who want nothing more than to be paired off with the right girl but are terrified of romantic rejection. To be fair, there are lots of confident, romantically forward dudes who are great, devoted partners, and lots of shy dudes who are horrible human beings. Shyness in of itself isn't a virtue, any more than confidence in of itself is a red flag. It's just that if you force all prospective suitors to chase you, the suitors you get might be suitors more interested in the hunt than the prey, so to speak.

 

Sadly, straight women are still bombarded with constant messages about how straight guys are gagging for sex all the time, with anyone, that if a guy is interested in you, he will show it, and that chasing a man is desperate, since if he's not pursuing you the way any redblooded man interested in a woman would, he's not and never will be interested. Few things are ridiculed more than the man-crazed woman desperately chasing after an uninterested man. (This is pretty much the premise of He's Just Not That Into You.) The idea is that if he doesn't manifest overt interest, he's either not into you or he's not Man Enough to pursue you, meaning either he's not worth your time or you're not attractive enough for him. Women pursuing men I think is still stigmatized in this enlightened age, since straight women are supposed to want men desperately, since being heterosexually partnered is supposedly the highest attainment of feminine existence, but are not supposed to do anything about it, since that would be "desperate," and desperate women are pathetic. Men are supposed to chase and be "active," and women are supposed to be the passive, gracious recipients of male attention when and if it is bestowed. It's toxic and awful, I agree, but it's a real thing.

 

It seems in all of modern pop culture, the women are still expected to be pursued rather than do the pursuing.

 

Again, the idea seems to be that if you're a Woman Worth Having, a man will be sufficiently interested to chase you, and if he's a Man Worth Having, he will be confident and forward enough to chase you. If you're not desirable enough to inspire a man to chase you, you're not a Woman Worth Having. If you're not confident enough to chase the woman you want, you're not a Man Worth Having. It's a horrible, circular trap.

 

There's also the fear of romantic rejection, which knows no gender. Asking someone out is terrifying. Women would gladly shove that burden on to someone else unless absolutely necessary, I think.

 

I will say this for Lorelai, though. Just because she is forthright, blunt, and a straightforward sort of person with an impressive ego, doesn't mean that she's necessarily going to be the one doing the pursuing. Speaking from my own experience as a heterosexual woman, I consider myself a self-assured, independent woman, and I have never asked a guy out or pursued a guy romantically. Not because I'm a supermodel goddess type with men prostrating themselves before me begging for my affection, but because I didn't want to look like a desperate woman or get rejected.

 

I think in reality, Lorelei would have been pegged as an emotional manipulator and eventually found little more than a couple of One Night Stand guys knocking on her door, Max probably would have shown up at her house screaming like a lunatic and ripping her a new one for messing up his plans, and Emily herself might have called Lorelai out on the Christopher issue, realizing that his "good breeding" doesn't amount to much if his parents are jerks and he's a smug entitled douche.

 

Pretty much this. I also think that in reality Luke would never have put up with Lorelai's irritating behaviour, would have banned her from the diner long ago, and never would have formed a romantic attachment to her.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Eyes High

[dustylil]

this show could be very regressive when it came to gender relations and in particular dating and sex: Lorelai being pleased that she got the "good kid" when she learns of Paris' dalliance

 

I had just started to watch the series when I saw this episode. I was quite taken aback when I heard "the good kid" line which seemed both an extremely simplistic opinion as well as quite unlikely coming from Lorelai. I was pleased to later learn that Lauren Graham was perturbed about the line. As usual, her concerns were dismissed by the showrunners.

[DisneyBoy]

Glad you enjoyed my comments, lol. I was feeling very opinionated a few hours ago with the episodes still fresh in my mind. I guess it was jarring because I'd always considered seasons 1, 2 & 3 the high points of the series. To see glimpses of the worst attributes of the characters beginning to manifest already was a bit of a shock.

What I think is so interesting about shows like Gilmore Girls, where the writing is sometimes brilliant and the acting often is as well, is that we find ourselves with a dilemma. We realize this is a fictional world being manipulated by a writer who has to adhere to certain expectations based on the fact that it's a television series run in seasons with a specific episode count and specific demands placed on episodes airing during sweeps week... as well as the expectations of the audience given the demographic being targeted and the social norms du jour... but that sometimes very seriously clashes with the authenticity of the performances offered up by the actors involved, who create characters so believable in their individual tics and responses to each other that you start to expect them to behave like real human beings or to at least go off in a direction perhaps more in line with what we see on screen then what was being written on the page.

In short, as awful as Lorelai can sometimes be, I really couldn't believe she would give up on Luke, or sleep with Christopher, or fuss over the April storyline. I know I'm not alone in dismissing the last season and a half of the series, but it is interesting to note that going back as early as the second season of the show we already start to see things that feel out of step.

When Lorelai fails to give voice to her concerns about Logan as a potential partner for Rory, I feel like something is very wrong. Lauren Graham's character would have said something, even if Amy's didn't. It does make sense that she would have a hard time telling her adult daughter what to do with her life, but considering the decisions Rory had been making at the time - to sleep with married Dean, to hold a grudge against Lorelai for an entire summer, to juggle Dean and Jess, etc - you would think Lorelai would buckle down and give her college-aged daughter the opportunity to discuss her dating habits. I know Lorelai would never want Rory to feel judged in that department the way she was with her mother, but it struck me as completely bizarre that Lorelai would allow Rory to slowly spin out of control over time simply because she was afraid to say anything. Sure, Rory was pissed you chastised her for the adultery, but then she realized you were right. You're her best friend and her mentor. Say something! You of all people should be noticing that your very mature young lady has turned into a slightly less mature college student and that should be cause for legitimate concern.

This was the woman who read Dean the riot act simply for daring to express interest in Rory back in the first season, yet some rich entitled frat boy with a nice smile tries to convince Rory - using what someone at TWOP aptly called "Jedi mind tricks" - to be in an open relationship, and you tiptoe around the point?

I could have understood if Lorelai had an emotional beat where it registered that Logan was Rory's Christopher, and that made Lorelai feel hesitant to get involved because she would be afraid to point it out. But instead, as you so well put it, no one in the show was permitted to notice it. And worse, Lorelai continues to feel romantic yearnings for Christopher at the same time as she judges Logan a user. Gah!

This is why I can't stomach season seven. How broken must Lor have been to just marry Chris after sleeping with him? Again, I think Lauren's character would have hated herself for getting with Chris and hurting Luke and stayed single. Maybe even gotten some therapy. That look on Lauren's face when she wakes up at the end of season six just says it all - "I'm dirt."

Glad you didn't think I was too off the mark with my real world predictions for how things would have gone down, Eyes. And as for Luke, I never bought for a second that he only realized Lorelai was the one when he "saw her face". He knew he loved her from the beginning. This was just a nice way of cluing casual viewers in to the fact that the big Luke/Lorelai romance was finally gearing up to happen. Oh, I'm even willing to accept that the character might be so dense that he knew he loved Lorelai but didn't KNOW he loved Lorelai yet officially. But given how Luke behaves throughout the rest of the series it's just impossible that it wouldn't have ever crossed his mind that he seriously loves Lorelai. Heck, he even asked her if it's okay for him to date his girlfriend and go on a romantic cruise with her! What the heck is that about?! He clearly loves her!!! It's maddening.

I know I already know the answer to this but I'm going to have to ask it anyway - was there ever an in-show reason given for why neither Luke and Lorelai would approach the subject of dating one another? It felt like Amy had the characters brush it off simply to delay the fruition of the plot, rather than for any actual personality motivated reasons. I would have actually preferred it if Lorelai had seen Luke do something in the first or second season that would make her hesitant to consider dating him for real, only to later realize why he did that unappealing thing and begin to change her mind about him, or vice versa. Lord knows Lorelai was enough of a pain in the butt at the diner to warrant Luke being fed up enough with her to not want to date her for a few years :)

Edited November 27, 2015 by DisneyBoy