All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[Melancholy]

So nothing from the show itself then. Of course, Lorelai could similarly have used local babysitters or traded off daycare with other Inn staff - like millions of other low wage parents before and since.

 

I was never quite sure allowing a young woman and small child to  live in a one room outbuilding on the Inn's property - however delightfully furnished - was such a wonderful thing to do. Given the weather of Connecticut.  However, the show's creator was born and raised in southern California where there has been some  history of transforming  garages into homes so perhaps that particular notion - however fanciful - was understandable.

 

As to eating at the Inn, to my understanding (limited as it might be), access to leftover food is one the perks of working in such an establishment. So Lorelai and Rory having some grazing rights didn't surprise me. Although given how Sookie appeared to manage the kitchen of the Independence Inn, I did wonder if the place was profitable. But I digress..

 

I didn't doubt in the least the Mia and Lorelai were close, both personally and professionally, over many years. Mia was a friend, confidante and surrogate mother to Lorelai. And in Lorelai she got a very capable staffer and loyal friend. I just never saw or heard - in the series -  what fairy godmother like gifts Mia had seemingly bestowed on Lorelai.

 

No, as I said in my post, we don't have totally solid flash-back evidence of the dollar value of the gifts that Mia gave to Rory and Lorelai. But I do think the series is quite clear that Mia provided rent-free housing which is huge. I don't know if the cottage had a furnace or what but my assumption is that it was heated- no one seemed to freeze. I don't think Lorelai would have put up with an unheated shack where it was dangerous to put up baby!Rory or that later on, Sookie and Jackson would have been fine with an unheated shack for Rune instead of putting him up in their home or paying for a rental. The potting shed was rough- but I think it was habitable according to Lorelai's formerly wealthy twentieth century American standards of living even for a baby (Rory....and Rune!). 

 

As you say, Sookie really gives out a ton of free food out of the Independence Inn. Lorelai and Rory, in particular, really seemed like huge beneficiaries of this and I could only imagine it was more so when they lived on Independence Inn property and badly needed the food. It's really beyond grazing. Sookie's outright prepared them feasts out of Independence Inn food, like Lorelai's and Max's engagement party which fed the entire town. The babysitting thing is conjecture- but you know, I can't imagine Rory's pre-pre-school life any other way than constantly at Lorelai's or Mia's side. 

 

But sure, absolutely, Mia's generosity paid dividends. It's hardly every employer that can count on and trust her manager so thoroughly that she could leave her small service-oriented business for years at a time and do whatever she wanted while just receiving the profits from afar. And I think I remember some line that Lorelai made the Independence Inn more profitable and renowned than when Mia was at the helm- and those profits and reputation went to Mia, the owner, and not Lorelai, the employee. That's beyond rare. I do consider Lorelai a self-made woman. However, I do go with the intimations and context clues to infer that Mia helped Lorelai BIG TIME with rent, food, and babysitting early on. It doesn't really take much away from Lorelai- she's a self-made woman. However, having a baby before you graduate from high school is such a life-derailing burden that IMO, most women need this kind of big help to start from nothing and join the middle-class by the time their child is 12 and the upper-middle class by the time their child is 20-something. 

Edited December 14, 2015 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

Melancholy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the idea of Mia as a regular  babysitter for Rory, given there was no clear indication in the series. For one thing, Mia herself worked full-time and had her own husband  family with all of those attendant responsibilities.  For another I also find it difficult to believe that a savvy businesswoman in a small town would show such obvious favouritism to a new employee, a stranger moreover.

Now helping Lorelai find a caregiver in Stars Hollow now that I could readily accept.

It's hardly every employer that can count on and trust her manager so thoroughly that she could leave her small service-oriented business for years at a time and do whatever she wanted while just receiving the profits from afar. And I think I remember some line that Lorelai made the Independence Inn more profitable and renowned than when Mia was at the helm- and those profits and reputation went to Mia, the owner, and not Lorelai, the employee

 

 

Lorelai herself referenced the importance of good staff in that ill-fated speech to the Stars Hollow High School students - just before she was ambushed :)

it is my job to hire, to train, and to inspire because when you have good employees it makes you look good

 

 

[txhorns79]

So nothing from the show itself then. Of course, Lorelai could similarly have used local babysitters or traded off daycare with other Inn staff - like millions of other low wage parents before and since.

 

I think we have all speculated at times about the characters and their actions over the many, many years this show has been discussed.  For example, Lorelai had a full time job that can't have paid all that much.  Where would she have gotten the money for regular babysitters over what would have been many years?  I mean, presumably, when she started as a maid, she had barely any money and that would have gone for baby and later infant related items that Lorelai couldn't have gotten at the Inn.  If we were really to believe that Mia didn't let her have Rory with her, then it seems pretty darn unlikely Lorelai could have made her situation work.  It's not like babysitters work on credit.       

 

 

However, the show's creator was born and raised in southern California where there has been some  history of transforming  garages into homes so perhaps that particular notion - however fanciful - was understandable.

 

I don't think you need to be raised in a cold climate to understand how the seasons operate.  After all, the show had numerous episodes in every season that were set during winter, and the characters acknowledged it was cold out and dressed appropriately for colder weather.  When you convert a garage into a home, you still weatherproof the place, and it still would need to meet certain conditions before it is declared habitable.  My guess was that the potting shed had heat in the winter, and was sufficiently weatherproofed to keep out elements.  Otherwise, it would not be livable, and Mia would have been in deep trouble in something happened out there. 

 

 

It was clear, to me, that her parents weren't people she felt she could rely on in times of trouble.

 

I would disagree, only to the extent that Emily and Richard appeared to have accepted Lorelai's pregnancy, let Lorelai and Rory live in their home and didn't force her into a marriage with Chris.  I think they really did almost everything parents should do for their kid in that situation.   

Edited December 15, 2015 by txhorns79

[Melancholy]

Melancholy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the idea of Mia as a regular  babysitter for Rory, given there was no clear indication in the series. For one thing, Mia herself worked full-time and had her own husband  family with all of those attendant responsibilities.  For another I also find it difficult to believe that a savvy businesswoman in a small town would show such obvious favouritism to a new employee, a stranger moreover.

Now helping Lorelai find a caregiver in Stars Hollow now that I could readily accept.

 

I don't think Mia was THE regular babysitter for Rory- although I think Mia did clock some time watching and playing with Rory because Mia seemed to have her own connection with Rory, aside with Lorelai. However, mainly, I think Lorelai took baby!Rory/kid!Rory with her on the job- as we saw indicated in the cut scenes in Those Are Strings Pinnochio which, in and of itself, is a big favor from employer to employee.

 

I also think Mia clearly showed obvious favoritism to Lorelia- and the other maids hated Lorelai for it.

 

MIA: Not one thing to recommend hiring her. Just that…how do I put it and remain a lady…that 'who cares' look in her eyes, so I gave her any job. The other maids hated you.

LORELAI: Yeah, well they were all so slow.

MIA: You were special. 

 

I never imagined the other maids hated Lorelai just because of Lorelai's record-time at making bed or cleaning a shower. I always thought it was because Lorelai was clearly Mia's favorite, in a combination of the respect and sympathy that Lorelai engendered from Mia because of the combination of Lorelia's talents and her particular situation. 

[dustylil]

Regarding the cut scenes - it is my understanding that if there are not comparable scenes in the series itself, then they are not considered part of the show. For instance,  there is a deleted scene from Season 4 that shows that Jason did go to Trix's funeral.

However, there is no similar event in the episode. So we are left to believe that Jason was a self-absorbed jerk without the basic decency to attend the burial rites of his business partner's mother. Because of this, I don't think those excised scenes of a  young Rory in Those Are Strings Pinocchio count as series canon and as such should be ignored regarding plot development or character revelation.

[txhorns79]

So we are left to believe that Jason was a self-absorbed jerk without the basic decency to attend the burial rites of his business partner's mother.

 

We are?  The other characters didn't seem to really hold it against him, and he did attempt to pay his respects directly to Richard.  I don't see why the audience is supposed to take greater offense in that circumstance than the characters.         

Edited December 15, 2015 by txhorns79

[alexa]

I always just saw Mia and Lorelai's start to her career as part of the story of her life.  There are many real life situations where someone takes someone under their wing, and helps them get a good start in life by helping them at a time when they really need it.  I am sure they just "clicked" and Mia felt something toward Lorelai and Rory, wanted to help, and had a means to do it...

[dustylil]

I always just saw Mia and Lorelai's start to her career as part of the story of her life.  There are many real life situations where someone takes someone under their wing, and helps them get a good start in life by helping them at a time when they really need it

 

Kind of like Buddy and Maisie for Luke then.

[alexa]

Revisiting season 7 and along with dreading the Lorelai and Chris relationship I am quickly reminded how boring they are as a dating couple. ugh. It is like the writers are trying to tell me how perfect they are and I just don't care.

[dustylil]

I am quickly reminded how boring they are as a dating couple

 

And with the exception of the outdoor screening of Funny Face, their actual dates weren't much either. They seemed to largely involve going to movies and tooling around the New England countryside. I was genuinely puzzled. One would have thought with all the money Christopher now had,  they would have do some fun, somewhat juvenile  things with it - maybe charter a plane to Naples and  see how the pizza there  was.

[Kohola3]

And since Christopher can throw money at any Stars Hollow cause, that pretty much shuts down any of the town activities.

[Eeksquire]

 

they would have do some fun, somewhat juvenile  things with it - maybe charter a plane to Naples and  see how the pizza there  was

I know! Even Luke, the least "let's go out and do something" guy would go to Broadway shows when he was dating people.  I feel like Lorelai and Christopher just never ever really progressed past high school, in any way.  So OF COURSE they'd go to movies and drive around... like you do with your high school boyfriend, before you have any imagination/funds/ability to not get home at curfew at all.

[ghoulina]

And since Christopher can throw money at any Stars Hollow cause, that pretty much shuts down any of the town activities.

 

Right? I hated him for ruining the knit-a-thon!

[alexa]

I agree--you are right, they could have done far more interesting things!  For me, I find listening to their incessant boring chatter is enough to put me to sleep.  It makes me laugh they broke up a couple (Luke and Lorelai) to bring me this???  Really?  :-)

[Melancholy]

Christopher's dullness really stands out against Logan. I mean, the two guys are there to be compared and Lorelai and Rory were dating them at the same time. However as spoiled and immature as Logan was, at least, I completely understood how he had the wit and intelligence and sense of adventure to use his resources to live life to the hilt and how that'd be incredibly attractive to Rory to the point that she'd want to mold herself into being Logan's kind of girl. The Martha's Vineyard trips, Pulp Fiction crazy parties, African Safari Life and Death Brigade adventure, the proposed Asia trip- all incredibly fun and exhilarating ways to spend youth and tons of money. 

 

Meanwhile, Christopher's not even a fun rich bad boy. He's just an unreliable weeinie with a fertility beyond his capabilities as a human being. 

[Guest]

Did Logan plan any of those though?  Other than Martha Vineyard, I think most of those were planned by his friends or Rory. He did plan her "She's a Jolly Good Felon" party though, so I'll give him some credit. ;)  

 

But I think like you said - youth and tons of money. Christopher was considerably older and had a young child.  Logan was at that point a college kid.  I think that plays a part in it.  

 

Actually though, I think the biggest part was that they couldn't have them doing too much outside of Stars Hollow because of the Inn and also for plot reasons.

[Melancholy]

I think Logan was one of the planners of the Life and Death brigade stuff like the safari. I think Rory took a lead on planning the Asia trip but Logan helped and it was the kind of thing that he was into. He wanted a big, exciting Asia trip. He didn't plan the Pulp Fiction party, true. 

 

Eh, I think Christopher just wasn't much of an explorer or brain- and IMO, that's why Christopher didn't make it through Princeton far more than Lorelai's pregnancy. He still could have done more interesting things, even with Gigi. It's such empty consumerism that Christopher reacted to his guilt that he didn't parent Rory into the successful Yalie that she became by taking out the newspaper staff for a huge, over-indulgent, booze-laden meal to throw some money around. Nothing ever feels emotionally deep or intellectually stimulating with Christopher, despite his wealth or the Hayden/senior Gilmore expectations for him. 

 

I actually do think the show painted Chris as superficially dashing but kind of dumb and empty. Logan felt like Rory's potential end-game. Christopher felt like marking time until Lorelai ended up with Luke. At least, those were my guesses when I watched the show for the first time. 

[Taryn74]

Rory loved Logan because he took her out of her comfort zone.

 

Lorelai loved Christopher because he WAS her comfort zone.

[dustylil]

why Christopher didn't make it through Princeton

 

Christopher never  attended Princeton. He appears to have finished high school and then wandered around the US on his motorcycle for the next decade or so.

 

That is one of the reasons I have never been too convinced of any significant similarities between Christopher and Logan. For all their Richie Rich lifestyles and alienation from their families, Logan was far more accomplished  by his mid-twenties. He had graduated from Yale, was a capable writer (according to Doyle of all people) and had begun his work career. An albeit spotty career - but at least he was working.

Edited December 21, 2015 by dustylil

[Melancholy]

Rory loved Logan because he took her out of her comfort zone.

 

Lorelai loved Christopher because he WAS her comfort zone.

 

That's really brilliant. Bravo! 

Edited December 21, 2015 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

For all their Richie Rich lifestyles and alienation from their families, Logan was far more accomplished  by his mid-twenties. He had graduated from Yale, was a capable writer (according to Doyle of all people) and had begun his work career. An albeit spotty career - but at least he was working.

 

Wasn't his job just something his father gave him?  And didn't he bail on that job after he screwed up that big business deal and lost his investors a huge amount of money?  I mean, yeah, he graduated college after five or six years, but I don't know how "accomplished" Logan was by any traditional sense of the word.  And if the metric is "as compared to Christopher," that's basically saying that Logan was more accomplished than a box of hair.   

[Eeksquire]

I think the deal that he screwed up on was the deal AFTER he quit the job that Mitchum got him, where he didn't do the due diligence on the IP and basically ended up buying a giant patent infringement suit.  He also, IIRC, lost a large chunk of his trust fund in the deal, so he had the courage of his (inexperienced, cocky) convictions.

[GreenScreenFX]

So random.... I was listening to Gilmore Guys ( they put me to sleep), and at some point I swear they said this as a fact... That L got pregnant the 1 and only time she had sex with C. Was that ever stated?

[dustylil]

I think the deal that he screwed up on was the deal AFTER he quit the job that Mitchum got him, where he didn't do the due diligence on the IP and basically ended up buying a giant patent infringement suit.  He also, IIRC, lost a large chunk of his trust fund in the deal, so he had the courage of his (inexperienced, cocky) convictions

 

That was pretty much my recollection of what transpired. It was unfortunate that both he and his business partners lost so much money. Although why anyone would  enter into any large deals with the Boy Huntzberger - who had such limited business experience - does make me question the acumen of the other investors.

 

at some point I swear they said this as a fact... That L got pregnant the 1 and only time she had sex with C. Was that ever stated?

 

I don't believe so. Perhaps they were confusing Lane with Lorelai.

Edited December 22, 2015 by dustylil

[GreenScreenFX]

Well they specifically said Lorelei and Christopher, I was just paraphrasing.

[txhorns79]

Although why anyone would  enter into any large deals with the Boy Huntzberger - who had such limited business experience - does make me question the acumen of the other investors.

 

Probably for the same reason other children with prominent last names seem to have access to much better business opportunities and jobs than other people with similar credentials but non-prominent last names. 

 

 

Well they specifically said Lorelei and Christopher, I was just paraphrasing.

 

They probably were just confused.  The show doesn't specify, but I can see why they might have thought that was the case. 

[GreenScreenFX]

Ok... So no. I don't think they were confused given the context. You would really have to listen to it, there was no confusion. They were very specific about Lorelei and Christopher. There is no way they would confuse the story lines. I thought I was going crazy. Thank you!

[GreenScreenFX]

Doesn't matter really. I just thought it was an incorrect statement, and I wondered if it was just my interpretation that was off.

[dustylil]

My apologies GreenScreenFX. I was joking about the Gilmore Boys getting Lorelai and Lane mixed up.

Although I do think it would be handy at times  to have a scorecard to keep track of the show's unexpected pregnancies :)

[GreenScreenFX]

Does anyone listen to Gilmore Guys? They have interesting points of view, I called them on it once.... They are feisty.

[GreenScreenFX]

Confession: I refer to Lorelai as L because the spelling is not naturally spelled in my head. Now that I realize Lane is a possibility, I am doomed.

[Persnickety1]

Last night, I made the mistake of watching "But I'm a Gilmore."  I always forget how painful that episode is! It makes the preceding episode "To Live and Let Diorama" seem like a masterpiece!

 

Let's start with Rory.  The way she acted at the Huntzberger's house was ridiculous. Her reaction in the car to Logan was fine to establish that this was quite the house.  Her acting once inside like she had never seen indoor plumbing before was ridiculous.  I think it was supposed to come across as she's so innocent, but instead it came across like she's such an idiot.  Also, her defense of how Logan's family treated her was "Don't they know who I am?"  Early season Rory would have been more "That's not how you treat people" and less "that's not how you treat me."  

 

Then there was the subplot with Sookie and Luke.  Sookie was absolutely ridiculous. Yes, she's an owner in the inn and has a right to how things are done. BUT when you are expecting someone to do you a huge favor, if you don't treat them right, you can't expect the favor.  Plus the fact that she had made zero plans for her maternity leave when she was that far along was inexcusable.  And the fact that she has a full kitchen staff but none of them, even her sous chef, do anything more than salad is just too unbelievable. 

 

And last, but I hated the way Paris' nanny was portrayed.  It just seemed to be very much a stereotype.

 

Right?  She acted like Ellie May Clampett.  I was almost expecting her to forget how to use utensils during the dinner.  That entire scene would have been much better served with facial expressions of awe and wonderment rather than that verbal Beverly Hillbillies type of reaction.

 

What I loved about that disastrous dinner with Logan's family most was it was so reminiscent of the way the Gilmores treated Dean during his dinner with them a few seasons before.  Their mortification of the Huntzbergers' treatment of precious Rory was probably comparable to Dean's parents' outrage over how he had been treated at Chateau Gilmore.  Gilmore Pot, meet Huntzberger Kettle.  

 

I must admit, as much as I love this show, I really grew to strongly dislike the character of Rory in season 4 after she slept with Dean.  Her reaction to her mother pointing out cold hard facts to her was really reprehensible, and I just never warmed up to the character again.  In fact, I pretty much did a fist pump when she failed to get her coveted internship at the New York Times and couldn't sweet talk her way into the position she'd turned down in Providence, so I was pretty much elated at the way her bubble was burst at the Huntzberger dinner.  As Dean once told her in an earlier season, not everyone is going to like you, Rory.  

[Melancholy]

I don't want to over-defend Richard Gilmore in Sadie, Sadie. He was very, very rude and unfair to Dean. No question about it. However, I do think there's clear distinctions between his conduct towards Dean and the Huntzberger's treatment of Rory. Richard wasn't upset that Dean didn't come from a fancy family. Richard was upset that Dean was apparently an average student with vague average boy ambitions. Richard didn't think Dean's own brain-power and ambitions were impressive enough for Rory, not that Dean's parentage outside of his own person wasn't impressive enough. Sure, Richard blatantly pre-judged worthiness on a boy because he came from a fancy family i.e. Tristan or Logan but Richard was primarily hoping for a boy with ideal virtues and actions on his own merits. I think Richard would prefer a Huntzburger but I really, really think he'd be happy with Rory dating say, Marty. I'm not as sure about this given how the elder Gilmores championed Christopher, but I think that Richard would be disillusioned with Tristan if Rory dated him and Richard spent some time with Tristan, if there was no baby to consider and Richard did always think Rory deserved better than Lorelai. As long as the future looks prosperous, Richard can be moved on the past. 

 

Meanwhile with the Huntzbergers, I don't think they were judging Rory for Rory's own virtues at all. It was just based on events completely out of Rory's control and talents- the Gilmore status and Lorelai's past. Moreover, maybe the Gilmores can come off better because they're judging male partners by more universal virtues- are they smart and motivated enough to have impressive careers. However the Huntzbergers judged a daughter-in-law by blatantly applying discriminatory sexism and bashed on Rory because she wanted a career outside of supporting her future husband. 

 

Richard was terrible and he shouldn't have treated Dean that way. But you know, he *was* right long-term that Dean's limited intelligence and ambitions were not well-suited to Rory's expected brilliant future. Ironically, Richard and Luke saw exactly eye to eye. Richard's "You are a gifted girl with immense promise, and you should learn very early that certain people can hold you back" = Luke's Pippi and Rory speech. It's just that a high school boyfriend really shouldn't be regarded as a life-long commitment. When Rory was coming back from Yale to skulk around the town with cheating and then, just separated Dean, Luke was speaking from higher ground that this was a waste of Rory's time and Dean wasn't good enough for her. 

[dustylil]

I might be more forgiving of Richard if he hadn't been bashing a kid - a teenage boy - who out of devotion to his girlfriend agreed to dinner at the home of her formidable grandparents. Dean wasn't there to ask for permission to marry the Gilmore Princess in which case being lectured at and cross-examined by the head of the family might be  anticipated. Rather he expected to attend what was likely to be a stuffy and uncomfortable meal. And then was broad-sided.

 

In one of my many fleeting fancies of Gilmore Girls dialogue writing, I had dearly wished for Dean to say to Richard after all his pontificating about ambition, standards and education - "And yet you think so well of Rory's father, Christopher."

[Melancholy]

No, I agree. Given Dean's and Rory's age, the nature of their relationship, the fact that this was the first meeting, and frankly, the fact that it's not Richard's place to blatantly approve or disapprove of Rory's boyfriends, Richard was out of line. However based on the meetings, I do think the Gilmores' romantic standards are far more meritocratic than the Huntzbergers and the Gilmores are far more feminist since they, unlike the Huntzbergers, believe women should have the right to pursue Most Eligible Bachelors for husbands AND have a stimulating career apart from their husbands. 

 

I think Richard and Shira were probably equally rude but Richard's aspirations for Rory's adult-life/marriage have more common sense than Shira's. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

I don't recall Shira yelling at Rory. And the male Huntzbergers (Mitchum and Logan) did apologize for Shira's comments. None of the adult Gilmores expressed regrets to Dean. Indeed, Lorelai (of all people!) defended Richard to Rory.

 

With respect, I'd be hard pressed to call the senior Gilmores feminists in that they strongly disapproved of Lorelai's refusal to marry the father of her child and her decision to live her own life. As well,  for much of the series were quite contemptuous of her working.

[solotrek]

I don't recall Shira yelling at Rory. And the male Huntzbergers (Mitchum and Logan) did apologize for Shira's comments. None of the adult Gilmores expressed regrets to Dean. Indeed, Lorelai (of all people!) defended Richard to Rory.

IIRC, Richard didn't yell at Dean. He did raise his voice when talking about Dean in the exact same way that grandfather Huntzberger did in regards to Rory.  Except in the Rory situation, there were two people talking about how she wasn't good enough with only Logan trying to help.  On the flip side, both Emily and Lorelai were trying to diffuse the situation and change topics as quickly as possible on top of Rory speaking up.

 

Lorelai expressed regrets to Dean before defending Richard to Rory after Dean had left.

 

As well,  for much of the series were quite contemptuous of her working.

 

They were more upset about where she was working rather than the fact she was working. I think many people would be upset if their daughter "the smartest girl in her class destined for Vassar" ended up a maid and then "working in a hotel" with a GED with no college degree (until the end of season 2 where she finally gets an AA). However when she finally opened her own inn, they were both very proud of her.

 

However, I'd also to be hard pressed to call them feminists. They were just people who wanted the very best for their child and grandchild, both who were females.

Edited December 22, 2015 by solotrek

[Melancholy]

I don't care if Shira didn't technically raise her voice- there was a sour, rude, hurtful edge to her Real Housewives of Hartford dulcet tones. It was equally rude and hurtful to Dean and Rory. And Rory and Lorelai did express regrets to Dean after the evening was over on the walk home. In fact, Rory also defended Dean right there at the table to Richard, no hesitation or holds barred. Logan took issue with Shira's tone at the table- but didn't make the same full-throated defense of Rory as an individual as she made of Dean. I guess we don't know if Mitchum scolded Shira to her face but we do know that Emily scolded Richard for how he handled the situation. Moreover, Lorelai didn't defend Richard's conduct; she just tried to provide some emotional background on Richard's dysfunctionality at dealing with teenage offspring so Rory could continue to hold Richard responsible for that he did that evening but ultimately keep up a relationship with her grandfather. I also don't know if Shira apologized to Logan like Richard did to Rory (kind of doubt it!) and said that Rory was welcome anytime at Casa De Huntzberger like Richard was instructed to do with Rory by Emily. We didn't see Shira have a detante small moment of some respect with Rory like Richard had with Dean in at the end of the car inspection scene. 

 

I didn't say that the Gilmores were feminists- they were just more feminist than the Huntzbergers and the Haydens. It was chauvinist to demand Lorelai marry Christopher. However, the Gilmores weren't contemptuous of Lorelai for working. They were disappointed that she wasn't doing something more impressive than running an inn "with all your brains and talent". However even then, I'd only argue that was for the first few eps. After they saw the Independence Inn, I think they regarded it as a worthwhile profession. However the Huntzbergers were back in the 1910s in their expectations that worthwhile wives were merely society matrons- at least with regard to their family. The Gilmores were more in the early 1960s with expectations than women in their family could and should work and attain academic prestige but should adhere to retrograde sexual propriety standards. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

After they saw the Independence Inn, I think they regarded it as a worthwhile profession

 

Not really. They saw the Independence Inn not long after Lorelai and Rory moved to Stars Hollow as they used to visit with them there. In the very first episode of the series,  so about a decade and a half later, Richard referred to the Inn as a "motel" - with all the salacious innuendo he could manage.

 

I think Shira was much more than a society matron - and a retired cocktail waitress, of course :) In addition to managing multiple homes,  she  was  involved with the arts and cultural affairs at a national level, mingling with significant writers and such like. Plus there were her social and charitable pursuits. Certainly the stage on which she operated was far greater than the realm of Emily. Had their husbands not been friends, I can't see that Shira would have even socialized with Emily.

[Melancholy]

Not really. They saw the Independence Inn not long after Lorelai and Rory moved to Stars Hollow as they used to visit with them there. In the very first episode of the series,  so about a decade and a half later, Richard referred to the Inn as a "motel" - with all the salacious innuendo he could manage.

 

Again, after the first few eps of the series, Emily and Richard consistently regarded the Independence Inn as a nice place, worthy enough to host Emily's affairs and dine there. They complimented Lorelai on successful events there like the Bracebridge Dinner or the Chilton fashion show. They were disappointed that Lorelai didn't have a more prestigious, higher paying job that demanded academic credentials- but they thought her work was worthwhile. They were even prouder of her work life after she got her AA and opened her own inn. 

 

I don't know, in what capacity, Richard and Emily saw the Independence Inn pre-series. For all we know, Lorelai just hurriedly met them outside with Rory and then, they weren't invited back to Stars Hallow after Lorelai brought her house. However, IMO, there was a sea change in how Emily/Richard regarded it as they were invited more into Lorelai's life and IMO they thought it was a worthwhile destination not long after the start of the show. 

 

I think Richard was sadly dismissive and insulting in his read of "motel" in the Pilot which isn't exactly nice but it's not as cruel or really, weird and pervy as "salacious." For salacious reads of Lorelai's job in S1, I'd refer to Straub's "Nice to see you've found your calling" dig when Lorelai said she runs an inn which was part of the build-up in Straub's insult that ended with Richard throwing Straub out. "Shame on you Straub, shame on you for opening all this up again......My daughter is very successful at what she does!"

 

I don't think there's much evidence that Shira led a substantial life where she was actively involved in key national issues and it demanded a great amont of anything from her, be it talent, time, brilliance, polish, etc. from her. Mitchum Huntzburger was a far more important, wealthier man than Richard Gilmore. I think the series is pretty clear that Mitchum managed a huge business that demanded hard work and brilliance from him and he had Pulitzers, friendships with important writers and political figures, and a huge reputation in the industry. However, I see no solid evidence that Shira was the Woman Behind the Man or she should be assumed as important because Mitchum was important. Some moguls with impressive businesses have bimbo wives. In the limited time that we saw Shira and based on her perceived role in Logan's life compared to Mitchum or even Honor, I wasn't impressed. We did get a lot of time with Emily- but I was usually impressed with Emily's wit, intelligence, discipline, calculations, vivacity, despite her other failings and thought she was a real impressive personality that could've been great in the business world if she embraced feminism. 

 

I'd like to include a GIF of Mad Men's Betty Draper being all "She's a silly woman. All that talk about her underthings?" to connote my impression of Shira- but I couldn't find it in two minutes. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

I think Shira was much more than a society matron - and a retired cocktail waitress, of course :) In addition to managing multiple homes,  she  was  involved with the arts and cultural affairs at a national level, mingling with significant writers and such like. Plus there were her social and charitable pursuits. Certainly the stage on which she operated was far greater than the realm of Emily. Had their husbands not been friends, I can't see that Shira would have even socialized with Emily.

 

I'm pretty sure "society matrons" are the people who are involved in arts and cultural affairs at a national level (though I'm not sure what you might be including in that term, and it's not like we saw evidence that Shira was involved with any particular group or working on behalf of any group), and mingle with celebrities and writers, etc."  You might see them written about in the Sunday Styles section of the Times at whatever party they were attending, or what money they had donated.  Moreover, given Shira thought enough of the DAR to crash its party, it seems like she and Emily would have easily run in the same circles.  And in terms of "managing" multiple homes, she would have a staff to do that.  It reminds me of Diane Keaton from "The First Wives Club." She plays a well to do housewife, and is complaining about how she did all the cooking and cleaning for her soon to be ex-husband, and one of the other women replies in amazement "You did?" to which Keaton replies "Well, I supervised." 

 

 

They were disappointed that Lorelai didn't have a more prestigious, higher paying job that demanded academic credentials- but they thought her work was worthwhile. They were even prouder of her work life after she got her AA and opened her own inn.

 

Very true.  I think once they got to know more of Lorelai's world, their main disappointment was that they thought Lorelai could have done so much more.

Edited December 22, 2015 by txhorns79

[Aloeonatable]

Knowing how the Huntzbergers treated Rory when she was dating Logan, why were Richard, and Emily especially, so eager for Rory to accept Logan's marriage proposal? Status and wealth. That was what mattered to them. 

[dustylil]

I don't think there's much evidence that Shira led a substantial life where she was actively involved in key national issues

 

Who said she was? I was commenting on the fact that - according to Logan - she palled around with prominent, national arts figures. Since Logan wasn't too thrilled with his parents at that point in time, I didn't think he was making up a story to impress Rory.

Nor did I suggest that she was in any way the Woman Behind the Man. Particularly so since Mitchum inherited his position in the business world from his father. Not that he wasn't considerably accomplished in his own right.

I was usually impressed with Emily's wit, intelligence, discipline, calculations, vivacity, despite her other failings and thought she was a real impressive personality that could've been great in the business world if she embraced feminism

 

Possibly, but since she couldn't even manage a household efficiently after forty years of marriage and hadn't risen beyond the local DAR ranks, I have my doubts that she could run a business. Whether or not she embraced feminism.

 

It wouldn't have surprised me in the least that Emily was considerably more intelligent than Shira. Certainly she was better educated, having a degree from an Ivy League college. And Shira probably just had a high school diploma. But having lucked out in the marital sweepstakes, Shira was considerably  wealthier and far more prominent than Emily would ever be. So applying the same rules that the Gilmores would apply concerning their family members and the importance of "breeding", Shira was naturally concerned about the suitability of Rory as a spouse for Logan. That various Gilmores - including Rory - seemed taken aback by this struck me as highly entertaining.

Knowing how the Huntzbergers treated Rory when she was dating Logan, why were Richard, and Emily especially, so eager for Rory to accept Logan's marriage proposal? Status and wealth. That was what mattered to them

 

Sure. Look how eager Emily still was in Season 5 for Lorelai to marry Christopher - and he had  been a deadbeat father to their beloved granddaughter for the preceding twenty years. Status and wealth was what mattered. And of course, breeding.

Edited December 23, 2015 by dustylil

[Melancholy]

Who said she was? I was commenting on the fact that - according to Logan - she palled around with prominent, national arts figures.

Nor did I suggest that she was in any way the Woman Behind the Man. Particularly so since Mitchum inherited his position in the business world from his father.

 

You said that "Shira was much more than a society matron" and "she was involved with the arts and cultural affairs at a national level, mingling with significant writers and such like" and "Plus there were her social and charitable pursuits." I see no evidence that Shira was "involved" in important affairs, that she regularly "mingled" with significant writers" or that Shira was "more than" a society matron or really more than anyone other than the wife of a more important man than Richard Gilmore. 

 

 

Possibly, but since she couldn't even manage a household efficiently after forty years of marriage, I have my doubts that she could run a business. Whether or not she embraced feminism.

 

I see no evidence that the Gilmore household wasn't run efficiently according to their standards. The house was always beautiful, elegantly appointed, the meals were fancy and looked delicious to me. Other than Emily's deliberate temper tantrums and cries for attention in S4, I never heard that Emily didn't stay on her budget. Her S4 spending was highlighted as an exception to show her unhappiness in her marriage. Emily often seemed important and popular in her social set and she was always elegantly turned out and coiffed, as was Richard who Emily appeared to shop for and manage. She was terrible at retaining maids- but that really wasn't on her rubric as Richard Gilmore's wife. I'd say her only failing as Richard Gilmore's wife was Lorelai- which admittedly is an embarrassing failure but she has company with Shira on that score. 

 

 

But having lucked out in the marital sweepstakes, Shira was considerably  wealthier and far more prominent than Emily would ever be. So applying the same rules that the Gilmores would apply concerning their family members and the importance of "breeding", Shira was naturally concerned about the suitability of Rory as a spouse for Logan.

 

It's not the same standard. The Gilmores cared, in fact they seemed most preoccupied, with whether the suitor had the intelligence, academic pedigree, ambition, and yes, breeding to have an impressive career and life that could make money and take the Gilmore Girl exciting places as she fostered her own impressive career. (Yes, with some sentimental exceptions for Christopher where the Gilmores tried to imagine greatness from him but settled for weakness because even his weakness wouldn't hold Lorelei back.) The Huntzbergers cared about whether Logan's future bride had merely the parentage and breeding necessary to be a suitable adornment and whether she had the temperament to deliberately NOT pursue her own ambitions or career (or ideally, not HAVE her own ambitions or career plans) but instead, be at Logan's side. She just needed to be an adornment that Shira would talk to- it didn't matter if she spoke more to Shira than Logan and Logan had a problem with that. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

her only failing as Richard Gilmore's wife was Lorelai- which admittedly is an embarrassing failure but she has company with Shira on that score

 

Which one of Shira's children dropped out of high school and had a child at sixteen? And who left home at an early age? Or their equivalent?

Logan's future bride had merely the parentage and breeding necessary to be a suitable adornment and whether she had the temperament to deliberately NOT pursue her own ambitions or career (or ideally, not HAVE her own ambitions or career plans) but instead, be at Logan's side. She just needed to be an adornment that Shira would talk to- it didn't matter if she spoke more to Shira than Logan and Logan had a problem with that

 

 

I'm confused. In what episode does Rory needing to be an adornment - and an adornment  with the ability to talk to Shira - appear? To the best of my recollection there was only one brief conversation about Rory's suitability as a Huntzberger wife and it is below -

SHIRA: I mean, I’m sure Rory understands. She wants to work. Isn’t that right, Rory? Emily’s always talking about you wanting to be a reporter and travel around doing this and that. A girl like Rory has no idea what it takes to be in this family, Logan.

LOGAN: Oh my God.

SHIRA: She wasn’t raised that way. She wasn’t bred for it. And this isn’t at all about her mother, it’s just, you come from two totally different worlds.

Frankly, as far as I am concerned nothing Shira said was untrue or out of line, given that she thought that Rory and Logan were in a serious relationship and Rory was being presented as a prospective bride. That said, none of the "issues"  raised were insurmountable.

 

True, Rory had never managed any kind of household, let alone a large one, with multiple homes. But there are courses for this, people to consult and staff that can be hired to assist. If there were  foundations to run and an array of social, cultural and charitable obligations to be met, then they can be discussed and sorted out. Perhaps Honor and her husband would be interested in taking on some responsibilities. And Emily would be available for guidance.

 

As to Rory wanting to work, that too could be figured out- as millions of couples have done in the past and continue to do. She would have great advantages working in journalism as a Huntzberger wife as well as a few drawbacks. She and Logan could discuss and negotiate the matter, conferring with Mitchum if need be. And given her new position,  there were any number of people she could consult with on any concerns. 

 

Very much first world problems as far as I can see.

Edited December 23, 2015 by dustylil

[txhorns79]

But there are courses for this, people to consult and staff that can be hired to assist.  If there were  foundations to run and an array of social, cultural and charitable obligations to be met, then they can be discussed and sorted out.

 

I'm trying to imagine the course one takes to learn to pick up a phone or use an agency to hire a staff of people to do things.  Generally, once you have a staff in place, "managing" a house is not a particularly taxing endeavor, and I don't know why it is being treated as though it was some kind of huge, overwhelming task that is so difficult that it would require someone to take classes.  Even with multiple homes, it would be likely that some of those houses would be closed while not being used by the family, and thus would require little managing beyond ensuring the caretaker staff was operating.  And in which episode did Shira say she was running a foundation, or heck, that she was managing multiple houses and it was hard or overwhelming for her?        

 

 

Frankly, as far as I am concerned nothing Shira said was untrue or out of line, given that she thought that Rory and Logan were in a serious relationship and Rory was being presented as a prospective bride.

 

I'd say it's fairly out of line for a former cocktail waitress to offer commentary to anyone about not having the right breeding to marry into a prominent family.  I mean, it seem obvious that whatever point she wants to make, even if it was true, is completely undermined by who she is.  It's like Bill Clinton lecturing someone about the importance of marital fidelity.   

 

 

Which one of Shira's children dropped out of high school and had a child at sixteen? And who left home at an early age? Or their equivalent?

 

From what we were told, Mitchum regularly had affairs, it was public knowledge and Shira's response was to gain/lose weight like a yo-yo.  That seems like it would be pretty embarrassing/humiliating.  And that doesn't even get into the fact that from what we saw during the series, Logan's behavior wasn't exactly crowning the family with glory.       

Edited December 23, 2015 by txhorns79

[Melancholy]

Which one of Shira's children dropped out of high school and had a child at sixteen? And who left home at an early age? Or their equivalent?

 

See what txhorns79 said. I guess we'll never know how many girls Logan knocked up because pregnancy just wasn't a lurking consequence for Logan's Don Juan antics. ;-)

 

Lorelai was finished and IMO, while Richard and Emily had a hand in producing high school drop-out runaway Lorelai, they also had a hand in producing businesswoman, mistress of entertaining and party planning Lorelai. Lorelai said that Emily taught her about managing and planning in Scene in a Mall. The jury was still somewhat out on Logan. When we left him, he was still emotionally recovering from his first rude jolt into an adulthood where his every misdeed wasn't bailed out by Daddy. I liked Logan so I imagine a happy ending for him- but it's not clear.

 

 

I'm confused. In what episode does Rory needing to be an adornment - and an adornment  with the ability to talk to Shira - appear? To the best of my recollection there was only one brief conversation about Rory's suitability as a Huntzberger wife and it is below -

 

Exactly what Shira said. She wants to work with extra syrupy contempt ladled on the "work" part. You can successfully argue that the Gilmores came off better because while both families are traditional, the Gilmores were "interviewing" male suitors while the Huntzburgers were looking as prospective wives. THAT would be a good argument against my point that the Gilmores were more meritocratic in their inappropriate snobbery. However, Dean's lack of ambition and academic achievements directed to that purpose sunk him with Richard. Meanwhile, Rory's ambitions for a serious, demanding career sunk her, even though and even arguably *because* her own academic achievements were greater than Logan's. 

 

Of course with the Huntzberger fortune and resources, there's plenty of ways for Rory to be a journalist while also serving a blue-blood hostess role. That's my point. It was ridiculous. Certainly, the Gilmores were looking at the match of journalist aspiring!Rory with the media Huntzberger family as a perfect match- "A power couple, that's what you both are!" Shira wasn't doing her role as the gatekeeper of the Persian rugs and foi gras or something to make sure the Huntzberger lifestyle was reasonably preserved. She was bashing on Rory for trying to have it all and Logan for getting serious with a girl who wanted to have it all. 

 

Heck, I'd say that it's possible for Rory to be Ivy League-bound and become a serious journalist but have a high-school graduate construction worker husband- but it's far less likely than the Huntzberger/Gilmore marriage and less so, when said blue collar husband sulks and tantrums when his busy wife steps out of her Donna Reed box. However, of course, Dean wasn't ever a serious candidate for marriage. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

I guess we'll never know how many girls Logan knocked up because pregnancy just wasn't a lurking consequence for Logan's Don Juan antics. ;-)

 

Indeed.  And yeah there isn't a tit for tat comparison, but so what?  Logan's antics (which apparently included sinking a family yacht) certainly sound on par with any embarrassment a family may suffer for having a pregnant teenage daughter who dropped out of high school and ran away from home. 

[Eeksquire]

 

Logan's antics (which apparently included sinking a family yacht) certainly sound on par with any embarrassment a family may suffer for having a pregnant teenage daughter who dropped out of high school and ran away from home.

I have to say the absolute worst Logan moment for me (and, generally, I liked him) was when he and Christopher bonded by listing off all the prep schools they had been thrown out of.  I think whatever we're meant to think about the Haydens and the Huntzbergers, it's clear that there was a definite whiff of "boys will be boys" and looking the other way at their nonsense, so long as they got their shit together when it was time to grow up - that was the source of the Logan-Mitchum tension during Rory's senior year.  (And Christopher's general failure to do so was the source of the tension between him and his parents, even to the extent that they still blamed Lorelai years later.)

 

Personally, I'd like to believe that Richard and Emily wouldn't have put up with that crap from a son, but there's no way of knowing - there's probably arguments to be made on either side of that coin.

[dustylil]

I'd like to believe that Richard and Emily wouldn't have put up with that crap from a son, but there's no way of knowing - there's probably arguments to be made on either side of that coin

 

Given that straight-arrow Richard still seemed quite proud of his own nude Yale days some decades later, I would wager they would likely have a "boys will be boys" philosophy when it came to hijinks - no matter how moronic such shenanigans might be.