Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[Lady Whistleup]

32 minutes ago, WhyAmIHere said:

Derick NOT being a young Earth creationist might be the most shocking thing yet I've heard from these two.  I thought for sure he would follow that line of thinking.  But then again, I never expected Jill and Derick to be living the most secular life out of all the Duggars. I thought they were among the biggest Kool-Aid drinkers of them all.  

He went to public schools. In public schools if you're a young earth creationist people will definitely look at you weird. 

[iwantcookies]

3 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I love the cherry picking of scientific facts.  We believe in gravity because......... we're not floating off into the sky? 

 

While riding a dinosaur 

[cmr2014]

2 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

I think Jill has generally been accepting of Izzy going to public school because it's kindergarten, and he's just learning basic academic concepts as well as social skills - as opposed to discussing "heavy" issues which may be more the case in older grades. I didn't really start learning about evolution until high school, perhaps maybe junior high. Jill doesn't know what she doesn't know. We'll see what happens as Izzy (and eventually Sammy) progress through the grades.

I think Jill is accepting of Izzy going to public school because she's bone lazy.

Up until recently, I'm sure she expected to just take Izzy and drop him at the TTH for "school" while she lolled around on the sofas with her sisters. I know she did some home schooling with Izzy, but I do think that that was so integral to Gothardism that it didn't even occur to her not to do it. Not home-schooling would have made her a bad parent in her own eyes.

I think that therapy, reading, and making friends outside the cult have given her some perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if Derick hadn't pushed hard for Izzy to go to school, and that gave Jill the freedom to say "okay" since he's the headship.

[Absolom]

 

8 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I agree with this. I think Derick must have seen the disconnect between his church's doctrine re creation, and the science he was learning in school. And it not being a hill he needed to die on (or have his faith destroyed for), he reconciled the matter that way and got on with things.

I don't think there is necessarily a disconnect between what Derick was taught in church and the science in school or if there was one it was only on certain points of evolution.  The SBC members I know do NOT believe in young earth creationism nor do they deny evolution.  They believe the creation story is allegory and the Bible needs to be interpreted not taken word by word literally in all cases.  

[jennblevins]

1 hour ago, WhyAmIHere said:

Derick NOT being a young Earth creationist might be the most shocking thing yet I've heard from these two.  I thought for sure he would follow that line of thinking.  But then again, I never expected Jill and Derick to be living the most secular life out of all the Duggars. I thought they were among the biggest Kool-Aid drinkers of them all.  

I forget how I arrived at this — so apologies if it’s been posted already — but I thought of this Twitter thread: “Those of us who tearfully promised that we would follow Jesus anywhere eventually followed him out the door.”  

[emmawoodhouse]

6 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I wonder if they both even use the same Bible.

Jill switched from the KJV after she married. I forget which version they use, but it's NOT the KJV. 

[Zella]

I'd be curious to know which version they landed on. When I was at C of O, they used the ESV for their mandatory Bible classes. Kind of surprised me it wasn't KJV, though of course some people thought it should be. 

[emmawoodhouse]

It's killing me that I can't remember! I usually retain useless bits of trivia like that.😁

[Zella]

I asked the Google and found a random reference on the Dillards' blog in a 2019 post to Jill using an ESV study Bible her parents gave her a couple of years ago.

https://www.dillardfamily.com/2019/09/personal-devotions/

She links to it, and that's actually the exact same one that was required for C of O. 

[emmawoodhouse]

What's so special about that translation? I forget what bible was required when I took the Bible as Literature course in college. Pretty sure it wasn't the ESV. 

[Zella]

13 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

What's so special about that translation? I forget what bible was required when I took the Bible as Literature course in college. Pretty sure it wasn't the ESV. 

I think it might be the study part of it more than the translation, to be honest. It has a massive number of notes by verse, as well as a lot of supplemental material before each book of the Bible and in the appendix. A lot of the advertising for it stresses that it is created by scholars, though I think they tend to be of a more conservative bent than some of the other newer translations. I've read it a couple of times. It is clearer to read than the KJV, though I'd argue the writing isn't as poetic or literary quality as some other translations, in my opinion. 

https://www.crossway.org/bibles/esv-study-bible-none-case/

I think if you're a conservative Christian who wants a theological or historical study experience while you read something in modern language, it's probably your best bet or one of them, anyway. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Zella

[Tikichick]

14 hours ago, Zella said:

I think you're right. I also think a big part of Derick's bitterness at his father-in-law is that he feels betrayed by Jim Bob. I think he reached out to Jim Bob with a very idealized picture of the Duggars while he was in search of a father figure in the wake of his dad's death. And of course there's a lot of buyer beware there--I think there were plenty of red flags to indicate that was not at all what he was going to be getting, but he didn't really see them until after he was married to Jill.

Absolutely believe Derick was almost scalded by the realization of who JB really was, both as a faith mentor and as a father figure.   I think it was like dumping salt and then acid into Derick's open wound of grief he had been searching for a way to heal.

I think Derick was completely unprepared and never saw it coming and never even understood the level to which Jill's upbringing had left her worlds apart from Derick's understanding of what women were like or were capable of.   I don't think Derick ever thought that different courtship rules, homeschooling, females not wearing pants, etc. was all so significant to the bigger picture that produced a woman who was completely unable to function independently while he was at work, could not function on a schedule, didn't have any independent opinions aside from JB's, etc.   Initially their relationship was no doubt a recognition of the many, many differences between them and an awkward grappling of how to bridge the gaps -- which I'm sure Jill stubbornly refused to even entertain compromise about.   Then the scandal hit, along with coping with a baby and probably some bumpy financial and life issues as well.   They were adrift, their boat was on fire, Jill was probably shell shocked by the public attention on the scandal -- and Derick was howling in pain of discovering his faith/father mentor is a monster, a monster that his wife follows absolutely without  question.   I can only imagine that Derick absolutely never wanted to set eyes on JB again, and yet he realized he was tied to him forever.  

[GeeGolly]

Derick had no problem with JB until about three year after they were married. His problem with JB, IMO, is solely about money. But Derick being Derick has now adopted other reasons to dislike JB to save his own reputation.

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Derick had no problem with JB until about three year after they were married. His problem with JB, IMO, is solely about money. But Derick being Derick has now adopted other reasons to dislike JB to save his own reputation.

How fast was the train moving those first three years?   Honeymoon baby, probably surprised to find wife unable to manage day at home when he went into the office, decided to give up accounting career and head to Central America for missionary work, participating in a TV show, realizing not altogether on same page with wife as assumed, regularly dragged into the TTH chaos, another baby on the way and birth maybe not smooth, bombshell scandal breaks and wife is probably humiliated and traumatized, more and more troubling info about FIL becoming apparent, possible tight budget, caring for two small children stressful.   

Might not be as cut and dry as we assumed at the time. 

[Heathen]

20 hours ago, Zella said:

Yeah didn't he once claim in Instagram comments that Jill probably had more college than the rest of us?

He's not far off. Only a small percentage of the world's population has taken even one college class*. If Derick thinks or thought that Jill's online "midwifery" thing counted as college, he was correct that she had "more college" than most of us. Of course, nobody with a working brain thinks her education was the same as real college, but that's a different topic altogether. 

*The figure my first-ever college professor gave us on my first day of college was that only two percent of the world has taken a college class. I will spend some time with Google later to see if the stats are still accurate. I don't have time right now. 

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

How fast was the train moving those first three years?   Honeymoon baby, probably surprised to find wife unable to manage day at home when he went into the office, decided to give up accounting career and head to Central America for missionary work, participating in a TV show, realizing not altogether on same page with wife as assumed, regularly dragged into the TTH chaos, another baby on the way and birth maybe not smooth, bombshell scandal breaks and wife is probably humiliated and traumatized, more and more troubling info about FIL becoming apparent, possible tight budget, caring for two small children stressful.   

Might not be as cut and dry as we assumed at the time. 

Nor might it that complicated or emotionally charged.

They had their first year while Derick was working, during which time they decided to do missionary work. Shared interest missionary work is one of the reasons they married. Long before and separate from any scandals. TLC was well aware of their plans prior to rebranding the show. No one will convince me that Derick didn't encourage Jill to hang with him whenever she could during his breaks, yet everyone puts that solely on Jill. Jill was absolutely devastated the molestations were made public. (humiliated? I sure hope not) Jill also had a hard time in El Salvador. Neither of Jill's struggles were directly related to JB and in Derick's mind at that time, surely they were completely unrelated. Until that time, though they were fundraising because that's what missionaries do, they had no financial hardships. Derick was still happily enveloped in the Duggar fold until he wanted money, as was shown by the show and their SM posts.

Derick never even mentioned JB until farther into his quest for money, it was all TLC. I'm sure once he found out JB wouldn't be willingly handing over the cash, he became angry with him.

Derick has left a trail of SM posts in his wake. If you lined them all up, there was a definite shift in his anger and tone. Because Derick is a liar, the evidence is even more clear, because he lies changed to make him the good guy and everyone else, including JB, the bad guys. And even then I'm thinking Derick was mad over money and made no true connection of it to Jill's upbringing, until they were in therapy, because once again the tone of their posts changed. Now they do the Q & As to continue to repair Derick's image. And they appear to be working.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending JB & M. They contributed to many of the difficulties the Dillards are managing right now, and that's awful. But like I said, Derick didn't figure this out until recently.

 

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, Heathen said:

He's not far off. Only a small percentage of the world's population has taken even one college class*. If Derick thinks or thought that Jill's online "midwifery" thing counted as college, he was correct that she had "more college" than most of us. Of course, nobody with a working brain thinks her education was the same as real college, but that's a different topic altogether. 

*The figure my first-ever college professor gave us on my first day of college was that only two percent of the world has taken a college class. I will spend some time with Google later to see if the stats are still accurate. I don't have time right now. 

That may be, but I am pretty sure his audience is predominantly American. And in that case, the percentage of who has taken some college jumps to about 2/3 and makes his whole thing pretty ridiculous, even beyond debating him about whether Jill's classes even count as college. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Zella

[Heathen]

18 minutes ago, Zella said:

That may be, but I am pretty sure his audience is predominantly American. And in that case, the percentage of who has taken some college jumps to about 2/3 and makes his whole thing pretty ridiculous, even beyond debating him about whether Jill's classes even count as college. 

My point is that he's technically correct or close to it. Derick is a literalist as well as stubborn. 

 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Heathen said:

My point is that he's technically correct or close to it. Derick is a literalist as well as stubborn. 

 

We'll see how far that takes him in his legal career. 😄 

[Heathen]

23 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Nor might it that complicated or emotionally charged.

They had their first year while Derick was working, during which time they decided to do missionary work. Shared interest missionary work is one of the reasons they married. Long before and separate from any scandals. TLC was well aware of their plans prior to rebranding the show. No one will convince me that Derick didn't encourage Jill to hang with him whenever she could during his breaks, yet everyone puts that solely on Jill. Jill was absolutely devastated the molestations were made public. (humiliated? I sure hope not) Jill also had a hard time in El Salvador. Neither of Jill's struggles were directly related to JB and in Derick's mind at that time, surely they were completely unrelated. Until that time, though they were fundraising because that's what missionaries do, they had no financial hardships. Derick was still happily enveloped in the Duggar fold until he wanted money, as was shown by the show and their SM posts.

Derick never even mentioned JB until farther into his quest for money, it was all TLC. I'm sure once he found out JB wouldn't be willingly handing over the cash, he became angry with him.

Derick has left a trail of SM posts in his wake. If you lined them all up, there was a definite shift in his anger and tone. Because Derick is a liar, the evidence is even more clear, because he lies changed to make him the good guy and everyone else, including JB, the bad guys. And even then I'm thinking Derick was mad over money and made no true connection of it to Jill's upbringing, until they were in therapy, because once again the tone of their posts changed. Now they do the Q & As to continue to repair Derick's image. And they appear to be working.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending JB & M. They contributed to many of the difficulties the Dillards are managing right now, and that's awful. But like I said, Derick didn't figure this out until recently.

 

I'm pretty sure Derick and Jill had vastly different ideas of what missionary work actually constitutes. 

[Tikichick]

20 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Nor might it that complicated or emotionally charged.

They had their first year while Derick was working, during which time they decided to do missionary work. Shared interest missionary work is one of the reasons they married. Long before and separate from any scandals. TLC was well aware of their plans prior to rebranding the show. No one will convince me that Derick didn't encourage Jill to hang with him whenever she could during his breaks, yet everyone puts that solely on Jill. Jill was absolutely devastated the molestations were made public. (humiliated? I sure hope not) Jill also had a hard time in El Salvador. Neither of Jill's struggles were directly related to JB and in Derick's mind at that time, surely they were completely unrelated. Until that time, though they were fundraising because that's what missionaries do, they had no financial hardships. Derick was still happily enveloped in the Duggar fold until he wanted money, as was shown by the show and their SM posts.

Derick never even mentioned JB until farther into his quest for money, it was all TLC. I'm sure once he found out JB wouldn't be willingly handing over the cash, he became angry with him.

Derick has left a trail of SM posts in his wake. If you lined them all up, there was a definite shift in his anger and tone. Because Derick is a liar, the evidence is even more clear, because he lies changed to make him the good guy and everyone else, including JB, the bad guys. And even then I'm thinking Derick was mad over money and made no true connection of it to Jill's upbringing, until they were in therapy, because once again the tone of their posts changed. Now they do the Q & As to continue to repair Derick's image. And they appear to be working.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending JB & M. They contributed to many of the difficulties the Dillards are managing right now, and that's awful. But like I said, Derick didn't figure this out until recently.

 

Yeah, I do think it's likely Jill was humiliated the abuse was made public.  If for no other reason the girls were in a world where they were viewed as provoking the abuse.  That isn't the only reason the media circus would have likely been uncomfortable and humiliating, but I do think it had to be a significant part of it.   I haven't met many victims of sexual abuse who wouldn't be traumatized and humiliated if their abuse were news and identified them by name.   I'm not sure Derick shares that view that the victims bore any responsibility and it may be likely he was horrified to hear that as many of us were.   There's responsibility for JB right there.  Is it likely Derick also didn't endorse Josh's lack of treatment?  Yes, I think so.   That's also something he may well have laid at JB's feet.

Jill's clinginess, her trouble in Central America, the obtrusiveness of the Duggar family and their specific beliefs into his household and the assumption he would fall in line -- yeah, I think it's likely he had some conflict with JB brewing at that point, maybe conflict he himself was struggling to acknowledge or even recognize because of his own deep feelings about his relationship with JB -- the initial Duggar relationship that Derick had initiated, a relationship I think he put great stock in.     

That's not to say Derick hasn't lied, or changed his perspectives over time.   I get the distinct impression that several things have impacted his thoughts and perspective over the past two years in particular.   Therapy and law school are two of the most likely in my mind, but I'm sure many things are at play.   

[Zella]

My thing with Derick is the way his story contradicts itself at different times but not in a way that can be explained as simply just his perspective changing. He has, at varying points, either claimed that his contract with TLC was unfair and that he had no contract. Those two things cannot both be true. 

He also seems to pretend like he wasn't fired by TLC, though he admitted as much a few months after he was fired. I think a lot of his bitterness is probably that he thought the family would close ranks around him against the evil liberals after he was booted off the show, and that didn't happen at all. 

[rue721]

I think Derick's falling out with JB was about *him* feeling betrayed by JB. Probably because JB turned out to not be as open-handed as Derick expected. I think Derick probably saw JB as a father figure (which makes sense, since that's his father-in-law) and probably trusted him because of their weirdo religion as well, so the betrayal cut deeper than it would coming from someone else.

That said... who knows if Derick felt this, but if I learned that my SO had been sexually assaulted by their sibling numerous times and that their parents had just covered it up, blamed my SO, and kept treating the sibling as a golden child... you best believe that I would HATE their parents forever. HATE them. That is disgusting and horrific behavior. I would also not want our shared children around either the sibling or the parents, because I would consider it dangerous. That's another reason not to go to the TTC, btw -- can't bring Izzy and Sam. Or at least, I wouldn't. We know about Josh's crimes (or at least some of them), but I still contend that there might be a whole LOT we don't know, and I doubt it's anything good. Who knows if Josh was an anomaly or just doing as he had been taught by some other monster. Who knows what danger kids running around that chaotic house might be in still.

[Suzn]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think Derick's falling out with JB was about *him* feeling betrayed by JB. Probably because JB turned out to not be as open-handed as Derick expected. I think Derick probably saw JB as a father figure (which makes sense, since that's his father-in-law) and probably trusted him because of their weirdo religion as well, so the betrayal cut deeper than it would coming from someone else.

That said... who knows if Derick felt this, but if I learned that my SO had been sexually assaulted by their sibling numerous times and that their parents had just covered it up, blamed my SO, and kept treating the sibling as a golden child... you best believe that I would HATE their parents forever. HATE them. That is disgusting and horrific behavior. I would also not want our shared children around either the sibling or the parents, because I would consider it dangerous. That's another reason not to go to the TTC, btw -- can't bring Izzy and Sam. Or at least, I wouldn't. We know about Josh's crimes (or at least some of them), but I still contend that there might be a whole LOT we don't know, and I doubt it's anything good. Who knows if Josh was an anomaly or just doing as he had been taught by some other monster. Who knows what danger kids running around that chaotic house might be in still.

I have always wondered what the children have been exposed to/or seen considering JB dry humping Michele at the golf course, the way Michele's fertility was monitored on a calendar and in general, his creepy attitude and discussing of his and Michele's sex lives.  It seems that it was a sexually charged atmosphere at the same time that it was a sexually repressed atmosphere.

[GeeGolly]

28 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think Derick's falling out with JB was about *him* feeling betrayed by JB. Probably because JB turned out to not be as open-handed as Derick expected. I think Derick probably saw JB as a father figure (which makes sense, since that's his father-in-law) and probably trusted him because of their weirdo religion as well, so the betrayal cut deeper than it would coming from someone else.

That said... who knows if Derick felt this, but if I learned that my SO had been sexually assaulted by their sibling numerous times and that their parents had just covered it up, blamed my SO, and kept treating the sibling as a golden child... you best believe that I would HATE their parents forever. HATE them. That is disgusting and horrific behavior. I would also not want our shared children around either the sibling or the parents, because I would consider it dangerous. That's another reason not to go to the TTC, btw -- can't bring Izzy and Sam. Or at least, I wouldn't. We know about Josh's crimes (or at least some of them), but I still contend that there might be a whole LOT we don't know, and I doubt it's anything good. Who knows if Josh was an anomaly or just doing as he had been taught by some other monster. Who knows what danger kids running around that chaotic house might be in still.

Yet they did bring their kids to the TTH after the molestations were made public. They became public around the time of Izzy's birth and we have seen both kids there.

[GeeGolly]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bjncd2zFanv/

[Heathen]

9 minutes ago, Suzn said:

I have always wondered what the children have been exposed to/or seen considering JB dry humping Michele at the golf course, the way Michele's fertility was monitored on a calendar and in general, his creepy attitude and discussing of his and Michele's sex lives.  It seems that it was a sexually charged atmosphere at the same time that it was a sexually repressed atmosphere.

Very much so. 

Along the same lines, Jill came from an environment where bodies were absolutely considered shameful and something to hide. Hell, her craven, adult mother had to whisper the word underwear because she found it so embarrassing. I can absolutely see Jill being humiliated that everyone knew she was a sex abuse victim because it meant everyone knew 1. She had a body; 2. Her body had been violated; and 3. By her own brother no less. And that leaves out the fact that Jill no doubt blamed herself. 

I have never gotten over being ashamed of my body and I think it's largely because of my own history as a molestation victim. And I didn't come from a fundie background, nor was my brother my victimizer (he wasn't alive the first time and he was an infant the second). 

I hope all this made sense. 

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Suzn said:

I have always wondered what the children have been exposed to/or seen considering JB dry humping Michele at the golf course, the way Michele's fertility was monitored on a calendar and in general, his creepy attitude and discussing of his and Michele's sex lives.  It seems that it was a sexually charged atmosphere at the same time that it was a sexually repressed atmosphere.

And how does that work with a teenager(s) feeling the first effects of hormones?   Especially when the same teenager(s) has listened to mom and dad blathering on about the blessings of marriage, listened to mom and dad go on and on about how things are reserved for marriage, then watched dad make a spectacle of displaying affection for mom, dangling certain aspects like the proverbial carrot in front of a teenager(s) struggling with how to handle their own new hormonal desires for physical contact.   

Judging by what I've heard about serious overreactions to toddler self exploration and public shaming of at least one son regarding masturbation, I can only imagine the head trip and shaming a teenager would have been subjected to if they raised any questions with mom and dad about feelings, urges, changes they were noticing in their body.

I absolutely believe the sexually charged/sexually repressed atmosphere in that household was ripe to do a lot of damage.  It's not uncommon for things from youth to have a very powerful effect on adult sexual drive.

[ginger90]

[QuinnInND]

6 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Yes, let's go travel, go to a butterfly place, and hold a newborn maskless during a pandemic. Ugh. 

[Suzn]

41 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

And how does that work with a teenager(s) feeling the first effects of hormones?   Especially when the same teenager(s) has listened to mom and dad blathering on about the blessings of marriage, listened to mom and dad go on and on about how things are reserved for marriage, then watched dad make a spectacle of displaying affection for mom, dangling certain aspects like the proverbial carrot in front of a teenager(s) struggling with how to handle their own new hormonal desires for physical contact.   

I absolutely believe the sexually charged/sexually repressed atmosphere in that household was ripe to do a lot of damage.  It's not uncommon for things from youth to have a very powerful effect on adult sexual drive.

Exactly!  I don't think it lets Josh off the hook, but I think that atmosphere could contribute to his behavior.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Suzn

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Suzn said:

Exactly!  I don't think it lets Josh off the hook, but I think that atmosphere could contribute to his behavior.

And what has it done to the others that is either unknown, or perhaps laying latent, ready to pop up in the future?   Not suggesting in any way that they're all on the knife's edge of becoming predators, but certain things happening at various stages of development cast long shadows in human behavior and personality in an awful lot of ways.    

[GeeGolly]

9 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

And what has it done to the others that is either unknown, or perhaps laying latent, ready to pop up in the future?   Not suggesting in any way that they're all on the knife's edge of becoming predators, but certain things happening at various stages of development cast long shadows in human behavior and personality in an awful lot of ways.    

This is true. It could crop up as overeating, anxiety and depression, to name a few. And it can also not affect them in any adverse way. 

This is one reason folks hide abuse, because they don't want others diagnosing them as potential predators or seeing them as broken in some way.

 

[cmr2014]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Nor might it that complicated or emotionally charged.

They had their first year while Derick was working, during which time they decided to do missionary work. Shared interest missionary work is one of the reasons they married. Long before and separate from any scandals. TLC was well aware of their plans prior to rebranding the show. No one will convince me that Derick didn't encourage Jill to hang with him whenever she could during his breaks, yet everyone puts that solely on Jill. Jill was absolutely devastated the molestations were made public. (humiliated? I sure hope not) Jill also had a hard time in El Salvador. Neither of Jill's struggles were directly related to JB and in Derick's mind at that time, surely they were completely unrelated. Until that time, though they were fundraising because that's what missionaries do, they had no financial hardships. Derick was still happily enveloped in the Duggar fold until he wanted money, as was shown by the show and their SM posts.

Derick never even mentioned JB until farther into his quest for money, it was all TLC. I'm sure once he found out JB wouldn't be willingly handing over the cash, he became angry with him.

Derick has left a trail of SM posts in his wake. If you lined them all up, there was a definite shift in his anger and tone. Because Derick is a liar, the evidence is even more clear, because he lies changed to make him the good guy and everyone else, including JB, the bad guys. And even then I'm thinking Derick was mad over money and made no true connection of it to Jill's upbringing, until they were in therapy, because once again the tone of their posts changed. Now they do the Q & As to continue to repair Derick's image. And they appear to be working.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending JB & M. They contributed to many of the difficulties the Dillards are managing right now, and that's awful. But like I said, Derick didn't figure this out until recently.

 

I have a slightly different take on this.

During their first year when Derick was working, I think he enjoyed having Jill come by during his breaks -- I think that was flattering and fun for him. On the flip side of that, I think Jill hated him working, and she was bored, and she was stressed about being the perfect helpmeet. I think that she (like Jessa) 100% believed that she came from a perfect family and Derick should simply get on board with whatever JB wanted, and I think she also expected to be admired and deferred to more for her Christian perfection as a wife.

I think it was the result of Jill's behind the scenes complaining about Derick's job that JB worked out the SOS gig for them. This was right around the time that Izzy was born and the scandal broke. I'm not sure about the exact sequence of events, but it was a lot for all of them. I think that one of the fallout issues for Jill (and Jessa) was that the scandal cut into their ability to preen as the daughters of the perfect Christian family, and gave them (in their own minds) less leverage in their relationships.

Jill also seems to have hated Danger America, failed to learn Spanish, disliked being a mother to an infant, and began to dislike Derick. I think that he felt the same way, and that's about the time that JB and J'chelle showed up as "marriage counselors."

In retrospect, I think it's possible that JB bankrolled the Cross Church program, because Jill clearly wanted to come home. I think Sam was conceived right around the time that they returned to the US. This was also when Derick began blowing up SM with hostile posts in general and Jazz in particular, and was dropped from the show.

Derick finished the Cross Church program, but we heard rumors that he had been counseled that missionary work wasn't for him. Whatever happened, I think someone counseled him (and Jill) and got them straightened out. It was toward the end of this program that Jill began therapy and posted photos of herself on SM reading books about setting boundaries.

Honestly, I think THAT is what the blowup was about. I don't doubt that Derick was disillusioned with JB and the Duggar family; I don't doubt that Derick wanted more money from JB; I think, though, that it was encouraging Jill to question her upbringing that sent JB over the top. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of confrontation where Derick called him a bad parent and then refused to apologize. JB is all about control, and he's not okay with Jill outside his umbrella of authority, and he's not okay with her giving her siblings any ideas that he hasn't vetted first.

[SMama]

When did the incubator and sperm donor showed up as marriage counselors? How did I miss that? I recall them doing premarital counseling.

[crazy8s]

11 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I have a slightly different take on this.

During their first year when Derick was working, I think he enjoyed having Jill come by during his breaks -- I think that was flattering and fun for him. On the flip side of that, I think Jill hated him working, and she was bored, and she was stressed about being the perfect helpmeet. I think that she (like Jessa) 100% believed that she came from a perfect family and Derick should simply get on board with whatever JB wanted, and I think she also expected to be admired and deferred to more for her Christian perfection as a wife.

another slightly different take. I think Derrick maybe had a hard time with co workers with Jilly showing up to bring him lunch and then all that time off he took to film and travel with the duggar family circus.

Agree Jill didn't know how to deal with a husband who worked a job away from home 8 hrs a day since JB was always home. Also Jill had no idea what to do when home alone, since she had been taught all her life being alone led you to sin. No accountability person, every second of every day, surely would have caused panic for Jill

 

[ginger90]

8 minutes ago, SMama said:

When did the incubator and sperm donor showed up as marriage counselors? How did I miss that? I recall them doing premarital counseling.

PEOPLE article about the visit:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/people.com/celebrity/jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-visit-jill-derick-israel-in-el-salvador-photos/%3famp=true

[cmr2014]

6 minutes ago, SMama said:

When did the incubator and sperm donor showed up as marriage counselors? How did I miss that? I recall them doing premarital counseling.

At the end of their time in DA, JB and J'chelle showed up for a visit. They showed them all walking on the beach and JB and J'chelle were discussing marriage advice. I don't think it was ever explicitly stated that they were there as marriage counselors, but the timing made it seem likely. Jill and Derick were pretty obviously not getting along, and then JB and J'chelle showed up without any kids in tow, and spent all their time talking about how difficult marriage is, and how much work it takes.

 

[GeeGolly]

18 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I have a slightly different take on this.

During their first year when Derick was working, I think he enjoyed having Jill come by during his breaks -- I think that was flattering and fun for him. On the flip side of that, I think Jill hated him working, and she was bored, and she was stressed about being the perfect helpmeet. I think that she (like Jessa) 100% believed that she came from a perfect family and Derick should simply get on board with whatever JB wanted, and I think she also expected to be admired and deferred to more for her Christian perfection as a wife.

I think it was the result of Jill's behind the scenes complaining about Derick's job that JB worked out the SOS gig for them. This was right around the time that Izzy was born and the scandal broke. I'm not sure about the exact sequence of events, but it was a lot for all of them. I think that one of the fallout issues for Jill (and Jessa) was that the scandal cut into their ability to preen as the daughters of the perfect Christian family, and gave them (in their own minds) less leverage in their relationships.

Jill also seems to have hated Danger America, failed to learn Spanish, disliked being a mother to an infant, and began to dislike Derick. I think that he felt the same way, and that's about the time that JB and J'chelle showed up as "marriage counselors."

In retrospect, I think it's possible that JB bankrolled the Cross Church program, because Jill clearly wanted to come home. I think Sam was conceived right around the time that they returned to the US. This was also when Derick began blowing up SM with hostile posts in general and Jazz in particular, and was dropped from the show.

Derick finished the Cross Church program, but we heard rumors that he had been counseled that missionary work wasn't for him. Whatever happened, I think someone counseled him (and Jill) and got them straightened out. It was toward the end of this program that Jill began therapy and posted photos of herself on SM reading books about setting boundaries.

Honestly, I think THAT is what the blowup was about. I don't doubt that Derick was disillusioned with JB and the Duggar family; I don't doubt that Derick wanted more money from JB; I think, though, that it was encouraging Jill to question her upbringing that sent JB over the top. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of confrontation where Derick called him a bad parent and then refused to apologize. JB is all about control, and he's not okay with Jill outside his umbrella of authority, and he's not okay with her giving her siblings any ideas that he hasn't vetted first.

Interesting take. However I'm fairly certain Derick was dropped from the show before he did his Jazz rant, while Jill remained on the show for a bit.

They clearly stated in one of their videos they called in lawyers to get money from JB. That's enough to piss any FIL off.

[BitterApple]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

 I'm fairly certain Derick was dropped from the show before he did his Jazz rant, while Jill remained on the show for a bit

I feel like Derick has been gaslighting us with hazy details for so long, I can't make sense of the timeline anymore. 

[Lady Whistleup]

Another Fenna sighting today in Jill's stories! Team Fenna.

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I feel like Derick has been gaslighting us with hazy details for so long, I can't make sense of the timeline anymore. 

Some are timestamped though. His posts are dated and his last appearance on the show would be too.

[cmr2014]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Interesting take. However I'm fairly certain Derick was dropped from the show before he did his Jazz rant, while Jill remained on the show for a bit.

They clearly stated in one of their videos they called in lawyers to get money from JB. That's enough to piss any FIL off.

I agree that being sued with get JB's hackles up, but I doubt they took him to court out of the blue. There was probably at least one confrontation before they reached that point. I don't think JB had any interest in setting a precedent with a SIL about handing over any money.

[hathorlive]

On 3/17/2021 at 1:34 PM, Tikichick said:

Hypocrites of the highest order.

Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, founders of the PTL Club Ministries.      

 

They always annoyed me but before she died, Tammy Faye did a tremendous amount of work with the LGTBQ community.  I can't remember where, but she did a book reading and kept telling people who had been thrown out of their homes and cut off from their families that they were loved and created by a god who loved them.  It took away a bit of my annoyance with her. 

[BitterApple]

3 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Another Fenna sighting today in Jill's stories! Team Fenna.

It looked like the picture was taken at the park, so yay, for the dog getting walked. This might be the one Duggar pet that doesn't get ditched. 

[Lady Whistleup]

11 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

It looked like the picture was taken at the park, so yay, for the dog getting walked. This might be the one Duggar pet that doesn't get ditched. 

I wonder if Jill is doing it partly to stick it to Joy. Joy's dog Brielle disappeared quickly. Poor Brielle. I hope she found a better home though.

[hathorlive]

On 3/19/2021 at 9:12 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

Nah, it's a common mistake.  It just brings out the math nerd in me.  

I get lost trying to rotate my pictures 45 degrees this way and that.  Sometimes I just keep hitting it until the picture is right side up.

Does that even make sense? 

[cmr2014]

6 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think Derick's falling out with JB was about *him* feeling betrayed by JB. Probably because JB turned out to not be as open-handed as Derick expected. I think Derick probably saw JB as a father figure (which makes sense, since that's his father-in-law) and probably trusted him because of their weirdo religion as well, so the betrayal cut deeper than it would coming from someone else.

That said... who knows if Derick felt this, but if I learned that my SO had been sexually assaulted by their sibling numerous times and that their parents had just covered it up, blamed my SO, and kept treating the sibling as a golden child... you best believe that I would HATE their parents forever. HATE them. That is disgusting and horrific behavior. I would also not want our shared children around either the sibling or the parents, because I would consider it dangerous. That's another reason not to go to the TTC, btw -- can't bring Izzy and Sam. Or at least, I wouldn't. We know about Josh's crimes (or at least some of them), but I still contend that there might be a whole LOT we don't know, and I doubt it's anything good. Who knows if Josh was an anomaly or just doing as he had been taught by some other monster. Who knows what danger kids running around that chaotic house might be in still.

Oh, this reminded me -- I 100 million billion percent do not believe Derick when he says he "never saw the show." I think that Derick was super-excited about getting connected to JB as a "prayer partner" because he wanted to be associated with this big, loving, Jesus-y family. Getting set up with Jill was a bonus, but he probably would have been thrilled to just be included in the big family dinners and family game nights of his imagination.

[crazy8s]

11 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

Oh, this reminded me -- I 100 million billion percent do not believe Derick when he says he "never saw the show." I think that Derick was super-excited about getting connected to JB as a "prayer partner" because he wanted to be associated with this big, loving, Jesus-y family. Getting set up with Jill was a bonus, but he probably would have been thrilled to just be included in the big family dinners and family game nights of his imagination.

hahahaha so he wanted to be Elijah Kaneshiro?🤣🤣🤣

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

I get lost trying to rotate my pictures 45 degrees this way and that.  Sometimes I just keep hitting it until the picture is right side up.

Does that even make sense? 

I think you mean 90 degrees.  45 degrees would make them cockeyed. 🙂

To anyone interested in how the bible has been rewritten over time, I highly recommend Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible And Why by Bart D Ehrman, one of several books he's written on the topic.