Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Buggin]

Josh probably doesn't have that much money. The money is in the Duggar trust, controlled by Jim Bob. She wouldn't be entitled to her Father-in-law's money.

 

Right, but I guess my question was more whether JB would be willing to pay up on behalf of Josh in exchange for Anna's silence if they don't have anything in writing forbidding her from doing any sort of tell-all should they divorce. Just the random stuff I think about while reading these boards when I'm up with the baby at 3 a.m!

[WalrusGirl]

I'll bet if you asked Jim Bob, he would say Josh didn't commit incest, he made a "mistake." They REALLY don't get it.

I also think that, in that context, "incest" is generally used to refer to adults against minors. Consensual incest between siblings without a large age difference is incest, but completely lacks the power differential and can be consensual. Marrying your first cousin is legal in half the states even though it's incest, so I don't think he could reasonably be understood as referring to all incest.

(But yeah, what Josh did doesn't fall into those consensual categories. Though we generally don't use capital punishment on 14-15 year olds regardless. I'm guessing - because I didn't follow Arkansas politics in ~2002! - that his religion was so prominent in his campaign that the abortion/even in cases of rape or incest question was honestly unavoidable. His "punish the person responsible for the incest" answer was a means to "don't punish/kill any resulting baby/fetus/unborn child" abortion position. Glass houses and all, but that was already a really standard question of conservative pro-life politicians back then.)

[CherryAmes]

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

 

Maybe but as I recall Jesus had a lot to say about hypocrites.  People who have themselves sinned (or like Josh Duggar committed crimes) who then turn around and cast accusations against those who are innocent all while pretending they are pure as the driven snow.  Maybe we can move past what Josh Duggar did as a teen - that doesn't absolve him of what he continued to do as an adult.

Edited May 26, 2015 by CherryAmes

[Literata]

I've read elsewhere JB&M have hired a 'faith based' crisis management firm.

 

Crisis management is part of my job description, and if they've hired a firm, the firm has failed them.

 

Cardinal rules of crisis management: Tell the truth. The whole truth. Apologize, and MEAN it. If you need help, seek help -- secular, accredited help. Work your program. Let the public know what your plan is for making amends to those you've hurt.

 

A public figure who did a great job with this: Letterman, after his affair. Granted, he had to be blackmailed to do so. But he put everything out there, took responsibility, appeared genuinely sorry, and shared that he was going to spend the rest of his life trying to make things right with his wife.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Literata

[skippy]

Here's what I'm struggling with:  Josh Duggar (and the whole family) is getting a bunch of much-deserved blow-back on this situation.  What he did was reprehensible, and we probably will never know all the details.  I'm not even sure I want to know.

 

But, how can a person ever come back from this kind of thing?  Without excusing or minimizing the impact of his actions, he apparently did this at the age of 14.  Can he ever demonstrate enough public remorse to be allowed to get on with his life in some way? Should he have never married, never had kids, or never tried to have a job linked to his faith?  Even stipulating that there are some options for his life that he foreclosed upon with his actions, is there ever anything he can do to be allowed to be a productive adult?  

 

I'm not trying to defend him or his actions, but I am trying to understand how to think about the idea that any actions taken or remorse shown aren't enough.  Can anything ever be enough?

Well, for one thing he can stop telling others they are wrong and headed for hell. He can stop being so damn smug.

[hathorlive]

 

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

 

 

I respect your experiences and what you are trying to say, but in my mind, I don't give a chit about Jesus.  Our law system is based on laws that don't care what Jesus thinks either.

 

If Jim Bob decides tomorrow that he has to fix this problem by stoning his "impure" daughters to death, is that okay?  I'm sure those that follow Sharia law would think it was dandy.  But it's not allowed because the law is above religious motivations.  While I have doubts that his victims forgave him but rather were shamed into forgiving him quoting the scriptures you listed, it still doesn't matter.  He committed a felony.  This country has a legal system that separates church and state. Several victims of the Boston Marathon bomber forgave him and didn't want the death penalty, but the legal system handed down a different verdict.

 

[snip]

Edited May 26, 2015 by AmandaPanda
removed inflammatory language against other poster

[Aja]

I may be in a minority here and will probably get thumped pretty good by the board members.  But that's okay.  I can take it.

 

I have only respect for your point of view, and you presented it absolutely beautifully. Thank you. I can see what you're saying, and I admire your heart and the personal commitment you have shown to living a better life. 

 

The issue that I have is that the Duggars have spent the last decade hurling stones at everyone who doesn't think exactly like they do. They have lauded Josh as their eldest and the heir to the Quiverfull throne knowing full well what he'd done, and the subsequent cover-ups. Lots of people struggle with mental illnesses that make them behave in abhorrent ways. I think a lot of us are seeing red because we don't feel that Josh understands the seriousness of what he did to his sisters. JimBob and Michelle absolutely don't see it. I feel sick for those girls, absolutely sick. At 14-15-16-17, you know you're not supposed to be fondling your sisters. Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not (you might not be if you haven't been reading EVERYTHING as exhaustively as I have, haha!) but the 'counseling" Josh received was helping a family friend remodel a house, talking to a police officer who made no report and was later convicted of child pornography and is serving a 56-year sentence currently, and of course church elder Bill Gothard who has been in the news recently for acting inappropriately with underage girls. So many of us (me included) feel that these acts were never properly addressed, creating two very serious problems from which a mind-blowing array of other issues stem. Often, people who manifest sexual deviance in early adolescence have serious mental issues that will only worsen with time; not only has this not been addressed, but Josh has actually been given power and authority and a very public platform from which to condemn everyone who isn't in his cult--my worry is that his sickness has been exacerbated to the point of no return. Two, stating that the sisters have "forgiven" Josh is a little hard to believe, considering they've been told since birth that they exist for the purposes of obeying men and making babies. I'm not sure how I'd actually feel if my brother fondled me and then I had to spend the next ten years telling everyone in America what a great guy he is, or else my entire life as I'd known it since birth would END and my family would ostracize me. I worry about the girls. So much.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Aja

[EtheltoTillie]

Oprah needs to be careful from a legal standpoint.  Oprah did not witness the molestation, she heard about it third hand, I think.  It may have been from someone anonymous...  but at any rate.  Slander/Libel lawsuits can be expensive to fight and it seems like the truth is out there.  All Oprah has to do is sit back and watch everything unfold.  Adding her voice to the din would serve no one. 

Yes, Oprah already was sued for defaming meat!

[juneday]

I do confess that I did think that Duggars were not as they seemed, but I never dreamed that they were hiding anything as despicable as what has been revealed. I thought it was more along the lines of Michelle screaming at the kids like a banshee all day long, never doing anything around the house (which was pretty much already revealed), Jim Bob being involved in some shady business deals, being a bit of a slumlord, maybe keeping the collections from the home church, Josh and some of the older boys figuring out the internet password and looking at porn.

 

Can't say I feel any vindication- more along the lines of "Wow, those rumors that I could not believe 8 years ago were actually true."

 

But truthfully my very first reaction was just "OMG, those poor girls"

That was exactly what I thought the Duggars would fall because of as well-people finding out the weird blanket-training methods they used, or finally figuring out how they basically arrange marriages for their barely-adult children, or Jim Boob stealing money from the car lot or something. I never thought it would be this, and truthfully my first reaction was to be slightly shocked and then very saddened for the victims and the other children in the house.

[Leigh3]

interesting

Jim Bob publicly stated during his 2002 campaign for U.S. Senate that he thinks incest should be punishable by death.

 

http://defamer.gawker.com/duggar-dads-political-platform-incest-should-be-punish-1706929035?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[merriebreeze]

Congratulations, TLC (most highly paid CEO), Jim Boob and Me-chelle. Thanks to you, Josh Duggar is now one of the most hated people in America. In reality you sacrificed family and soul. Was it worth it? The whole thing pretty much back-fired. There isn't a war on Christianity. It's hypocrisy anywhere that irks the hell out of many of us. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by merriebreeze

[JennyMominFL]

I have to say that having worked with troopers most of my career, this should have been reported.  I guess Trooper Child Porn probably got off on giving Josh "a stern talking to".  But in reality 99 out 100 LE officers would have reported this.  I've seen them fake lecture kids about many things, but this was clearly a felony.  So many people let the victims down. 

It's pretty sick that a guy who was convicted of child porn got to here a kids confess about molesting young girls.

[HumblePi]

I may be in a minority here and will probably get thumped pretty good by the board members.  But that's okay.  I can take it.

 

I am a Christian.  I was a carnal Christian for many years before I developed a relationship with God through Christ.  A carnal Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ and what He did for the world, yet continues to live life by doing whatever one wants to do without the feeling of guilt or consequences.  That was me.   I believed, yet I had not submitted my life to God through Christ.  I didn't care who I hurt as long as it felt good to me.  I was selfish.  I just didn't care.

 

Having said this, I understand where Josh is coming from.  He did a terrible thing.  He was young, he was self-absorbed, he was only thinking of himself and what satisfied him.  He didn't think or care about the scarring of the victims.  Josh repented.  He apologized to God, his parents and the victims.  All forgave him and sought help for him and the victims (at least that's what I understand).  And like Ben's father said, when we refuse to forgive we are putting ourselves in God's seat.  How can we (Christians) NOT forgive when Christ forgave us?

 

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

Sin is one thing. People make mistakes and commit sins all the time. But, this offense was not only a sin, it was a criminal act. I can forgive Josh but I still believe he should have been brought up on charges for his heinous crimes.

[Almost 3000]

I may be in a minority here and will probably get thumped pretty good by the board members.  But that's okay.  I can take it.

 

I am a Christian.  I was a carnal Christian for many years before I developed a relationship with God through Christ.  A carnal Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ and what He did for the world, yet continues to live life by doing whatever one wants to do without the feeling of guilt or consequences.  That was me.   I believed, yet I had not submitted my life to God through Christ.  I didn't care who I hurt as long as it felt good to me.  I was selfish.  I just didn't care.

 

Having said this, I understand where Josh is coming from.  He did a terrible thing.  He was young, he was self-absorbed, he was only thinking of himself and what satisfied him.  He didn't think or care about the scarring of the victims.  Josh repented.  He apologized to God, his parents and the victims.  All forgave him and sought help for him and the victims (at least that's what I understand).  And like Ben's father said, when we refuse to forgive we are putting ourselves in God's seat.  How can we (Christians) NOT forgive when Christ forgave us?

 

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

and than of course there's the law.

[bencr]

interesting

Jim Bob publicly stated during his 2002 campaign for U.S. Senate that he thinks incest should be punishable by death.

 

http://defamer.gawker.com/duggar-dads-political-platform-incest-should-be-punish-1706929035?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

 

This must be a mistake since we are told over and over by Duggar defenders, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

There's an old saying that applies, which is "it all depends on whose ox is being gored." The gored ox problem is the problem of tolerance. We love to hear sin condemned from the pulpit, as long as our ox is not being gored, meaning that our sin is not being condemned.

[Churchhoney]

Crisis management is part of my job description, and if they've hired a firm, the firm has failed them.

 

Cardinal rules of crisis management: Tell the truth. The whole truth. Apologize, and MEAN it. If you need help, seek help -- secular, accredited help. Work your program. Let the public know what your plan is for making amends to those you've hurt.

 

A public figure who did a great job with this: Letterman, after his affair. Granted, he had to be blackmailed to do so. But he put everything out there, took responsibility, appeared genuinely sorry, and shared that he was going to spend the rest of his life trying to make things right with his wife.

I recently talked to several crisis managers who told me that the worst thing about their industry is how many people completely ignore their instructions (the ones you just described) the minute the crisis-management consultants leave the premises, even after they've paid them a bunch of money. Seems as if people are often hoping that they'll get quite different advice -- or a magic wand to make the whole thing go poof. One guy told me that he often asks people to list the kinds of crises their organizations might get hit with, and the one that almost never makes the list is -- A crisis we caused ourselves by being idiots or jerks.

 

Who wants to bet that somehow JImBoob figured that a Christian crisis-management consultant would know how to turn Jesus into the magic wand and can't even now get his mind around the fact that this is a Duggar-caused crisis?

[HumblePi]

Congratulations, TLC (most highly paid CEO), Jim Boob and Me-chelle. Thanks to you, Josh Duggar is now one of the the most hated people in America. In reality you sacrificed family and soul. Was it worth it?

If the justice system was thwarted in the prosecution Joshua Duggar for a criminal act, there is are punishments, recriminations and banishments made in the life of the Duggars. No matter how long justice took, it was inevitable that this story would come out eventually. Yes, they profited greatly over the past years and now it's going to cost them all dearly, first and foremost by losing the respect anyone had for this family the monetary losses will be secondary to the Duggars.

[JennyMominFL]

I am not a Christian and therefore I think the idea that one can commit horrible " sins" and then be forgiven for them is kind of messed up. I want no part of a belief system that teaches that. Wether or not Josh's god has forgiven him is irrelevent to me . I don't care one bit if he has repented. I am however capable of seeing that this was not all his fault His parents and the system he was raised in have culpability. Remorse, real genuine remorse, is far more important to me

We all commit wrongs, but there are levels of wrongs.

Disclaimer, as someone who was raised a Christian, I recognize that not all denominations see things the same way .

And I know Josh wouldn't care a flying fig what I think of him , what with being a godless heathen.

Edited May 26, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[zenme]

I honestly thought more information would come out today. I thought the magazines would be feverishly working to uncover new information. I also thought someone in the know would definitely sell their story. I wonder if the Duggars agreed to confess to allegations that they couldn't be charged for in exchange for nothing being released that could result in charges. They confessed rather quickly.

 

I think more information is forthcoming.  They're going to have to dig hard to find someone who will talk, but I bet someone will. 

[awaken]

Thank you for posting this. I have always been puzzled with the idea that the Duggars are not allowed to access media, television etc. However, most of them (especially Anna and Josh) have snazzy new phones, websites, etc. What is stopping them from being online 24/7 on their phones? I don't think they are as sheltered as their parents imply.

 

 

Exactly.  I do think years ago, they didn't have much access to the outside world via media and were not as affected by it nor as responsive to it.  It was easier to control without internet, phones, etc.  But now that they have iphones, are tv celebrities, have instagram, FB, online baby/wedding registries, etc I think they are very in touch with the world because in essence, that's their "job" as celebrities- to keep themselves "out there".  Also TLC is funneling their fans' opinions to them and shaping the show, I'm sure.  They may still not watch regular (worldly) TV and movies, and their parents may be in on all their texts before marriage, but I do think they have more awareness and access than when the show began. 

 

I kept going back to thus, too. If this is what he was referring to, I have way more respect for the man. I also think I can understand why Jessa wanted to keep "the kiss" private. She took control over her sexuality and access to that moment. Good for her.

 

 

As heinous as Josh's actions were, I admit being concerned about his welfare and that of his family this weekend. He has a wife and soon-to-be four kids depending on him; I've been half-scared to get online and find he's harmed himself. I hope he's managing to keep his shit together for Anna and the kids.

And those kids ... as smart as MacKynzie is, I'm sure she realizes something is horribly wrong. I wonder how the situation is being handled, both with the M-kids and with the Lost Girls and howlers.

 

I am very concerned about Josh and what he may do to himself.  He probably doesn't have strong emotional coping skills from his upbringing, esp. when faced with something this severe.  Seeing his name at the top of the headlines for sex abuse of minors and the impact this will have on his immediate and extended family, finances, and reputation forever.  I, too, am afraid to get online and see that something's happened to compound this tragedy.  

[Sunnybobs]

Yes, Oprah already was sued for defaming meat!

You know you've been reading too many Duggar boards when you honestly read this as defrauding meat

[Literata]

 

He did a terrible thing.  He was young, he was self-absorbed, he was only thinking of himself and what satisfied him.

I respect your views. But, sincerely, can you help me understand something?

 

Do you honestly view Josh's actions as only a "mistake"? We all make mistakes, but I daresay most of us don't molest children. His "mistake" was a crime with lasting repercussions; I don't see what he did as being about self-absorption and satisfaction, but about something pathological and sinister.

 

I truly want to understand. Even if he's truly sorry, don't you think God's response would be, "Josh, I love you and I'm glad you're sorry. But you need help, and you need to make things right with the people you harmed. You're forgiven, but that can't be the end of this. You've got a lot of work to do"?

[bencr]

One bit of news to come out today that I thought was fairly important is that according to thewrap.com two other sponsors have joined General Mills in dropping the program -- Choice Hotels and Payless Shoes.  (I hope this has not already been reported -- I try to keep up with the boards, but there's a lot.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by bencr

[Julia]

Josh repented.  He apologized to God, his parents and the victims.  All forgave him and sought help for him and the victims (at least that's what I understand).

 

That's one of the things we were told. At least part of it is demonstrably untrue, as we have evidence that he continued his predation for years after he says he confessed and was forgiven, and his parents acknowledge that he was not sent for any form of counseling.

 

And like Ben's father said, when we refuse to forgive we are putting ourselves in God's seat.  How can we (Christians) NOT forgive when Christ forgave us?

 

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

No. Strictly biblically speaking, the stone would be somewhere else.

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

and hey. Look who threw it.

But again, I'm not claiming the things of heaven unto myself. I'm talking about the things of Caesar. I understand he trumps somebody's brother in law's daddy.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Julia

[EtheltoTillie]

What makes me LOL SO hard about these photos is their phony claims of being frugal. My husband and I are hardcore apple fans and we have 3 new apple laptops and two iMacs, iPhones and iPads...they are EXPENSIVE...you'd think for being so cheap they'd be using refurbished laptops....

 

Mac Books, iPads, iPhones, designer clothing...they do not shop at Goodwill anymore or Aldi...they are just so fakety fake fake.

I always thought the Apple computers were paid product placements--note that the logos are not blurred out.  When people use their own stuff, networks usually blur out logos, since their "clearance" departments are oh-so-afraid of intellectual property claims of various types.

[brandyelf]

I absolutely believe that Jesus Christ forgives Josh for his sins, that if he truly repents (and that is for the Lord to decide, not me!), his slate will be wiped clean. However, having been proven to be a sinner (as are we all), he has lost the "right" to cast stones at others. (I don't believe he ever really had that right, but he definitely does not now)

I also believe in the law. The sins he committed are also crimes, and there are repercussions for them. The time to prosecute these crimes may have passed, but I believe his actions should still have consequences. I believe there will be consequences, if nothing else in the court of public opinion.

Lastly, and most importantly, I believe that the victim in all this is not Josh. It is his victims, and the fact that almost none of the statements coming from the family even mentions those poor girls absolutely disgusts me.

[JoanArc]

 

I am very concerned about Josh and what he may do to himself.  He probably doesn't have strong emotional coping skills from his upbringing, esp. when faced with something this severe.  Seeing his name at the top of the headlines for sex abuse of minors and the impact this will have on his immediate and extended family, finances, and reputation forever.  I, too, am afraid to get online and see that something's happened to compound this tragedy

Honestly, I fear EVERYONE in the situation, sans the 16-and-under set, is at risk for self harm. The perp, the victims, JB&M. It's just all so sad.

Edited May 26, 2015 by JoanArc

[Mindymoo]

I have read and heard the arguments that what Josh did was a mistake and that he was young and foolish. I have a hard time with that argument though. Does his age matter to his victims? Are they less touched, less violated, or less assaulted because he was not yet 18? Are their fears and nightmares less? Do they have a better self worth because at least he wasn't an adult yet? Do they flinch any less when someone touches or hugs them? My violator was a 58 year old man. I can tell you that his age has little impact on the memories I have and pain that I feel.

When I was eleven, I stayed the night at a so-called "friend's" house. I woke up in the middle of the night to both her and her 15-year-old sister molesting me. While I can look back on it now and say those girls were likely abused, because how else would an eleven-year-old know to do that, it doesn't stop me from hating the both of them, and their parents who tried to sweep it under the rug. I was just as violated then as I was when I was molested in my sleep by my brother's best friend right before my 13th birthday (he was 16), when I was raped by a fifteen-year-old at a high school party, and when I was repeatedly bullied and sexually assaulted by one of my peers between the 9th and 11th grade. All of them fucking sucked. All of them gave me nightmares, and PTSD that I have to deal with to this very day, as a 28-year-old. I used to think I had some kind of signal I emitted that said "easy to abuse". All of these people were under 18, none faced any consequences for what they did to me. The cops deemed the first incident "sexual exploration" even though it was done to me in my fucking sleep and refused to do anything about it. And that's when I learned that the cops don't care and won't do anything to help, so I didn't even report after that, because why bother?

[starfire]

GussieK, on 26 May 2015 - 2:32 PM, said:

I always thought the Apple computers were paid product placements--note that the logos are not blurred out.  When people use their own stuff, networks usually blur out logos, since their "clearance" departments are oh-so-afraid of intellectual property claims of various types.

Off to send a note to Apple to stop product placement on 19 Kids..

[JoanArc]

Off to send a note to Apple to stop product placement on 19 Kids..

They're specially thanked in the credits, so yeah, free Macbooks.

[3 is enough]

Jim Bob's "aw shucks, good ole boy " persona is totally put on for the cameras. Sure, he is ignorant and has some very skewed ideas, but I think he is actually a LOT shrewder than most people give him credit for being.  And right now he is PISSED AS HELL.  I wouldn't want to be around him right now.  I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of any crisis management team.  What a hellish job that would be.

[Potato511]

I’m a little worried you’re all going to be disgusted with me but here it is: I am having trouble fitting the image of Josh I had before (loving husband and father, bully to LGBT and women’s rights) and this new one of molester. I find myself going back and forth between Molester Then, loving father/husband and whackjob right-taker now, and Molester who cannot be a loving father/husband.

Even if I only take into account what we know- he molested five minors, and keep aside all speculation about the possibility of his being a sexual predator now. How can he be both have molested his sisters AND love his daughter? I find myself excusing his “teenage mistake” until it makes me physically ill. Then I try to make him less of a dad but that is not fair to his family.

I think I have been so conditioned into viewing the world in black/white, good/evil that seeing that a person can be more than a molester takes some real effort. He was never all good obviously. Good people try to help others, they don’t try to put restrictions  on who is allowed to love who. But he was ruining lives from the safety of his office, never having to witness the pain and destruction of life he was causing. That makes him an idiot, a bully and a coward. Now we know he’s a molester as well. Invading the sanctity of the body of another without consent, we can all agree that’s just evil.

But evil people don’t have lame competitions with their brother-in-law. They don’t carry their children or are too weak to tell their wife they don’t want more kids. We don’t see evil every week on the tv smiling at us as he recounts another inane event of his life. We certainly don’t let evil into our living room, or in the case of their fans, into our hearts. So how can he be evil? How can he be a molester?

And at that point the whole circle starts anew. Josh Duggar made a mistake. Could happen to anyone. He molested 5 minors. Evil. Aw Crap!

If anyone can explain to me how someone can love his family and still have molested his sisters (amongst other) I would be interested to know. This is breaking my head.

(Written in first person singular because I don’t want to assume, but I think these same thoughts are what makes fans stick by Josh Duggar.)

You might get something out of reading this, by Cynthia Jeub, who comes from a Gothardite family that was also once on reality TV. She was horribly physically (primarily by her mother) and emotionally abused by her parents. She is out of the cult now (she was one of the elder daughters in a large family), and is pretty kick-ass. She prefaced the link below on facebook with the following words. "I refuse to excuse what’s been done, but I also refuse to paint a one-dimensional, inhuman face onto my abusers.

To see them as human is scary. It means abusers can be anyone, anywhere. That’s why so many people don’t believe me, it’s why so many people don’t believe so many other victims who’ve spoken up." http://cynthiajeub.com/2015/05/painting-one-dimensional-abusers/ 

[HumblePi]

When I was eleven, I stayed the night at a so-called "friend's" house. I woke up in the middle of the night to both her and her 15-year-old sister molesting me. While I can look back on it now and say those girls were likely abused, because how else would an eleven-year-old know to do that, it doesn't stop me from hating the both of them, and their parents who tried to sweep it under the rug. I was just as violated then as I was when I was molested in my sleep by my brother's best friend right before my 13th birthday (he was 16), when I was raped by a fifteen-year-old at a high school party, and when I was repeatedly bullied and sexually assaulted by one of my peers between the 9th and 11th grade. All of them fucking sucked. All of them gave me nightmares, and PTSD that I have to deal with to this very day, as a 28-year-old. I used to think I had some kind of signal I emitted that said "easy to abuse". All of these people were under 18, none faced any consequences for what they did to me. The cops deemed the first incident "sexual exploration" even though it was done to me in my fucking sleep and refused to do anything about it. And that's when I learned that the cops don't care and won't do anything to help, so I didn't even report after that, because why bother?

That's all hard to read so I can't even imagine how difficult that's been to live with all your life. I see that you had felt at one time that you were in some way to blame for the sexual abuse.  I think that victims of sexual abuse are somehow made to feel the shame for their own sexual abuse rather than shifting it to where it belongs, the abuser. This may lead to a re-victimization and other subsequent sexual abuses. In a perfect world, children that are sexually abused would speak up, say something to a parent, a teacher or police. But, it's not a perfect world of course and children feel guilt and hide their shame with silence. Perhaps the children that Josh Duggar molested felt the same way, hence their silence over the years.

 

I hope you heal

[Julia]

I used to think I had some kind of signal I emitted that said "easy to abuse".

Most likely after the first set of parents closed ranks - and I tend to agree with you that a family of children doesn't spontaneously develop that sort of behavior without being taught it somewhere - it sent a signal to the predators in your environment that you weren't someone who was going to be able to get them punished.

 

I'm glad you're not trapped in that environment any more, and I sincerely hope you realize now that you're not trapped in it that there is nothing that a victim does which makes a predator choose to abuse them. That's all on the people who took advantage of you. And you deserve to be protected.

[Oldernowiser]

Mindy, sweetie, I'm so terribly sorry.

Words aren't adequate. I wish I knew some that could help.

I hope you can find happiness and peace someday. You deserve only good things.

[lilabennet]

Not sure if this has been posted yet:

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/three-advertisers-drop-tlcs-19-kids-counting-195351441--finance.html

[3 is enough]

Mindy, I have no words.  Hope good things come your way.  

[HumblePi]

Not sure if this has been posted yet:

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/three-advertisers-drop-tlcs-19-kids-counting-195351441--finance.html

I think the TLC network is being very cautious about issuing a formal statement cancelling all further episodes because they're waiting to see how many sponsors they'll lose first. To me this speaks volumes for the type of people are running TLC.  They don't want to kill off the program if they can keep their sponsors. But, if they don't cancel and continue filming, how much of their viewer base will be sacrificed by doing that? I strongly think that TLC will come out shortly with an announcement of permanent cancellation of all future filming.

[hathorlive]

 

hat's all hard to read so I can't even imagine how difficult that's been to live with all your life. I see that you had felt at one time that you were in some way to blame for the sexual abuse.  I think that victims of sexual abuse are somehow made to feel the shame for their own sexual abuse rather than shifting it to where it belongs, the abuser. This may lead to a re-victimization and other subsequent sexual abuses. In a perfect world, children that are sexually abused would speak up, say something to a parent, a teacher or police. But, it's not a perfect world of course and children feel guilt and hide their shame with silence. Perhaps the children that Josh Duggar molested felt the same way, hence their silence over the years.

 

 

I think this is what ticks me off so much about Josh.  These fundy families have built in victims because the girls are all to blame for the actions of the men, when they have absolutely no control over those actions.  You could put them in burquas and they'd still be called out for tempting the poor men.

 

Mindy,  I'm sorry that no one believed you, or worse, believed you and didn't take action.  We have to stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.  And we need to teach LE that they need to listen to victims.  I think most LE bring in social workers immediately to help in these situations, and that helps balance out those looking for hard evidence versus those listening to what happened.

 

I've seen victims literally cry when they were told charges were being brought against a relative because they felt someone finally believed them.  And that just kills me.

[Sew Sumi]

I think the TLC network is being very cautious about issuing a formal statement cancelling all further episodes because they're waiting to see how many sponsors they'll lose first. To me this speaks volumes for the type of people are running TLC.  They don't want to kill off the program if they can keep their sponsors. But, if they don't cancel and continue filming, how much of their viewer base will be sacrificed by doing that? I strongly think that TLC will come out shortly with an announcement of permanent cancellation of all future filming.

I've figured since the finger-in-the-dam announcement on Friday that the decision wouldn't be announced until Wednesday. They don't want to spoil the season debut of The Little Couple tonight. Again, this theory falls right in with all the other posts that assert this is all about the $$$. 

[Julia]

I think the TLC network is being very cautious about issuing a formal statement cancelling all further episodes because they're waiting to see how many sponsors they'll lose first.

 

Me, I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with the fact that according to the press release someone linked, the woman who's running the asylum got the big job because of the ratings she got with the Duggars. If they start shutting down shows on TLC where you can tell it's not the middle of the 12th century because everyone's wearing synthetic fibers, what has she got?

[starfire]

lilabennet, on 26 May 2015 - 3:10 PM, said:lilabennet, on 26 May 2015 - 3:10 PM, said:

Not sure if this has been posted yet:

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/three-advertisers-drop-tlcs-19-kids-counting-195351441--finance.html

 Pure Leaf Tea also has recently been responding to concerned Twitter users that they will no longer advertise on 19 Kids.

 

"Thank you for contacting us to share your concerns. Please know that we will no longer be advertising on 19 Kids and Counting"

 

https://twitter.com/PureLeaf/with_replies

Edited May 26, 2015 by starfire

[Mindymoo]

Thanks for all of the kind words! I just wanted to add my two cents in when people were calling this a mistake done by a child. A "mistake" that took place over three years with at least five victims. I really wished that those who hurt me could have been held accountable. My parents did the right thing by going to the police, and the police just shut the whole thing down. I didn't report my brother's friend because I knew either my dad or my brother would kill him. I didn't want him to be the end of my dad or brother's life and freedom, so I kept my mouth shut to protect them at the cost of my own emotional well-being. The third time, I just knew my name would be dragged through the mud, that I'd be called a liar, and that my being a lesbian would be trotted out and ridiculed, and since I wasn't out to my family at that time, I kept my mouth shut. And with the fourth person, I only told my mom when he was threatening to do a school shooting, with me as his first victim. It was a very detailed plan. She called the school, and they did everything they could to protect him over me, while giving me the "that's just Steven" and "he's just a kid" schpiel. Even though Columbine had happened four years prior, they did nothing about his death and school shooting threats. Under the guise of my shitty health, I left the school and finished my last year and a half of high school online. I am doing a lot better now, even more so than just a couple years ago. Therapy and medication for the panic attacks and flashbacks have been a godsend. And I speak out now because I felt that the longer I was silent, the longer they had power over me. I hope that the Duggar girls and his other victim feel that way some day.

[ToukieSmith]

 

The one question we really don't want to ask ourselves is whether we are outraged because of the offense committed by Josh or because we feel vindicated in our thinking that there just might be something amiss all these years with the Duggars? How many have silently said "I knew it!  I just knew it!" ?

 

I am outraged that these parents taught their children that its better to be a man than a woman.

 

Mindy, if you feel up to it, maybe you can contact a lawyer to determine what your options are concerning your abusers.

 

I was treated unfairly in an employment situation.  My Dad told me at the time that I probably won't win if I file a complaint with the EEOC, but I could at the very least make my former employer fill out paperwork in response to my complaint.  My Dad was telling me that I could stand up for myself and that counted for something.  Being discriminated against is not the same as being raped.  However, the point that my Dad was making to me is appropriate in your case...I think.  You are important and you should be heard.  When you are ready, start looking into how you can be legally heard.  What you think of yourself is way more important than what others think of you.

Edited May 26, 2015 by ToukieSmith

[Mindymoo]

I am outraged that these parents taught their children that its better to be a man than a woman.

 

Mindy, if you feel up to it, maybe you can contact a lawyer to determine what your options are concerning your abusers.

 

I was treated unfairly in an employment situation.  My Dad told me at the time that I probably won't win if I file a complaint with the EEOC, but I could at the very least make my former employer fill out paperwork in response to my complaint.  My Dad was telling me that I could stand up for myself and that counted for something.  Being discriminated against is not the same as being raped.  However, the point that my Dad was making to me is appropriate in your case.  You are important and you should be heard.  When you are ready, start looking into how you can be legally heard.  What you think of yourself is way more important than what others think of you.

Would that really do anything though? The crimes are between 12 and 18 years old. The statute of limitations would have long expired, and I don't even know where any of these people are anymore.

[starfire]

Walgreens also just bailed out from being a 19 Kids advertiser.

 

"In the wake of recent news, we are no longer advertising on the ‘19 Kids and Counting’ program."

 

https://www.facebook.com/Walgreens?fref=ts

[hathorlive]

 

Walgreens also just bailed out from being a 19 Kids advertiser.

 

"In the wake of recent news, we are no longer advertising on the ‘19 Kids and Counting’ program."

 

I guess Bob Dylan was wrong.  Some people apparently do need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

[AmandaPanda]

Sponsors can impose some parameters. If a show is higher rated, the network can charge more money to air ads during that show. 

[JoanArc]

I'm glad Walgreens is gone. The dominoes keep falling. THIS is where our outrage needs to be directed. Deprive Jim Bob of advertising $.

[autumnh]

I may be in a minority here and will probably get thumped pretty good by the board members.  But that's okay.  I can take it.

 

I am a Christian.  I was a carnal Christian for many years before I developed a relationship with God through Christ.  A carnal Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ and what He did for the world, yet continues to live life by doing whatever one wants to do without the feeling of guilt or consequences.  That was me.   I believed, yet I had not submitted my life to God through Christ.  I didn't care who I hurt as long as it felt good to me.  I was selfish.  I just didn't care.

 

Having said this, I understand where Josh is coming from.  He did a terrible thing.  He was young, he was self-absorbed, he was only thinking of himself and what satisfied him.  He didn't think or care about the scarring of the victims.  Josh repented.  He apologized to God, his parents and the victims.  All forgave him and sought help for him and the victims (at least that's what I understand).  And like Ben's father said, when we refuse to forgive we are putting ourselves in God's seat.  How can we (Christians) NOT forgive when Christ forgave us?

 

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

 

That is all well and good but we have to remember that "forgiveness does not EQUAL justice" and well, the victims deserve something..anything other than a blanket statement made on the internet by their BROTHER and their PARENTS.

 

I just cannot wrap my head around how it cannot be understood HOW this will affect these women for the rest of their lives. You do NOT forget molestation or sexual abuse. It has not one damn thing to do with religion, or the bible...it's about our moral compass and being human beings. 

 

Gawd.

 

I think back to that little house they lived in prior to TLC building their shiny new house....how could JB and Michelle not have known? you'd think they be up all hours of the night since there was always a newborn in the house. As parents it is their job to protect their children.As outraged as I am about Josh...I am even more outraged at the parents for not doing whatever it took to protect those girls.