Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[autumnh]

JB & Josh are like well....typical, smarmy used car dealers..................oh wait! ;)

[ChocolateAddict]

My favourite part from the TeamInFocus article (posted by Julia in the media thread and Nijntje here) was this 

 

It is evil to focus primarily on protecting Josh Duggar. My sister put it masterfully: “Stop imagining he’s your son and imagine they’re your daughters.” People who love goodness focus primarily on protecting the victims. Every time. Without exception. It is evil to do otherwise. 

 

I think that this was what Boob and Mechelle got wrong (excluding the whole modesty/no contact crap).  They looked at Josh and put his needs first. They didn't want him to have to face court, they didn't want to report him (presumably in case it hurt their reputation and his) and considered how to cover it all up so that Josh didn't get in trouble. They didn't look at their daughters and consider the fact that they were (and still are) the victims and as such, their need for to feel safe, to see justice and to receive counselling should have come first.

If they had put their daughter's needs first, Josh would not have returned to that house without having completed a treatment program, if ever.  They would not have said yes to the TV shows which made the girls interact with their abuser as if nothing had ever happened.  And most of all, they would have reported Josh to the appropriate authorities (i.e., the police) to show the girls that they matter more than their abuser. 

They protected Josh at the expense of his sisters which is well and truly f*cked up.  

 

BTW, the article is here http://teaminfocus.com.au/ten-things-every-person-should-be-able-to-affirm-in-the-face-of-the-duggar-family-tragedy/ 

[Soup333]

At first I thought that too, but one of his victims was 4 or 5. That is a totally different scenario.

 

I'm sorry I'm not up on the latest news, but where did you get this info from? Was that the age of the victim that he wasn't related to? All of his sisters (all of the five he had at the time) were older than this, or so I thought.

[RazzleberryPie]

Celia Rubenstein, thank you for saying what I tried to say about Pa Seewald's posting.  It is not the liberal media going after this "holy" family.  It is not an issue of sin alone.  Josh committed criminal acts against his sister and another girl.  In his ministry, Pa may feel that leading convicts to Jesus will save them from committing such offenses.  Josh already had Jesus in his life, so what's his excuse.

 

A few years ago, I was driving through Nevada.  I could only get a religious station on the radio.  A preacher was talking about coveting. It started off well, focusing on why we covet things that others have and learning to happy with what you have, only looking to others to see if they needed help.  Then it took an unexpected turn, talking about incest and bestiality. I mentioned this to my niece who was raised in a religious cult; she said I wouldn't believe how often these topics were discussed, like every dog, kitten, chicken and deer in the area had best watch out because the only thing keeping people from raping animals was the bible.  Otherwise we are out of control.  Incest was addressed the same way, as if only their biblical teachings and the strict oversight of the group were preventing incest.  Maybe this lecture was meant for the Joshes of the world.  I hope the animals are safe from his urges.  After all, they don't wear clothing.  They could be defrauding him right now!  /sarcasm

People with depraved, perverted minds are going to obsess on some really bizarre behaviors, no matter if they're up in a church 24/7 or not. I totally believe you. I can tell you some really creepy stories involving the pure, righteous AMISH in Pennsylvania. They have a whole lot of untreated mental illness, incest, substance abuse, spousal abuse, animal abuse, etc., and I'm talking about church members, not teens on Rumspringa. They do things most Christians, most people in general, would never think of, but all you have to do is confess and you're automatically forgiven, and you NEVER report anything to the English (nonAmish) police. Many 'bad things' are blamed on outside influence or demons. Of course, like Josh Duaggar, this forgiveness is used and abused quite often, but it's rarely found out outside of their community. I am a little suprised Josh hasn't pulled a 'the devil made me do it,' but I guess if your child sisters are already set up to be automatic scapegoats, Satan doesn't need to be involved.

[kathe5133]

I don't get the questions about "who". His SISTERS. Isn't that enough?

[CofCinci]

Count me in as another who believes that Anna wasn't told the whole story. There is no way she would have married him if she knew all the details. I imagine her secretly reading all the websites while pretending to use the loo this weekend.

She could be reading this.

#leavehim

Edited May 26, 2015 by CofCinci

[PinkSprinkles]

I'm sorry I'm not up on the latest news, but where did you get this info from? Was that the age of the victim that he wasn't related to? All of his sisters (all of the five he had at the time) were older than this, or so I thought.

 

The reports clearly say that 4/5 victims were his sisters and that one of the two oldest girls was not affected. In 2002-2003 there were only five Duggar girls. The excluded girl was either Jana/Jill because of the interview given that said the unaffected victim was working on their GED. 

[poopchute]

In the press release, Anna said she remembers feeling the "same shock" we are all feeling after hearing the news. So if she didn't REALLY know that Josh molested four of his sisters, then she is a real fucking asshole for pretending she knew.

If someone molested her kids, would she call it a "teenage mistake"? She's an idiot.

[Bella]

I don't get the questions about "who". His SISTERS. Isn't that enough?

YES!!!!

And thank you for stating it so directly.

We are not allowing speculation about the identity of the non-family member. Such posts will be hidden or edited.

[Found A Peanut]

I take Anna at her word that she knew. I think it's a mistake to try to superimpose our "worldly" view onto what we think her natural reaction would be to this information. Anna was born into Quiverfull, into the patriarchy, and carefully indoctrinated and shielded from outside influences all her life up until her marriage. I think people are underestimating the cultural differences here.

I recall that there was another blog notorious case years ago - Doug Phillips, douchelord of Vision Forum, I think it was who married them - where an actual, known child molestor got married off to a woman in the movement. I was just a lurker, but I remember people at Free Jinger reached out to make sure the bride-to-be was fully informed. My impression at the time was that she seemed to regard that as persecution of a repentant man. The wedding went forward. If anybody wants more precise detail, I could steel myself to dig around, but it's really disheartening stuff.

[Churchhoney]

My favourite part from the TeamInFocus article (posted by Julia in the media thread and Nijntje here) was this 

 

It is evil to focus primarily on protecting Josh Duggar. My sister put it masterfully: “Stop imagining he’s your son and imagine they’re your daughters.” People who love goodness focus primarily on protecting the victims. Every time. Without exception. It is evil to do otherwise. 

 

I think that this was what Boob and Mechelle got wrong (excluding the whole modesty/no contact crap).  They looked at Josh and put his needs first. They didn't want him to have to face court, they didn't want to report him (presumably in case it hurt their reputation and his) and considered how to cover it all up so that Josh didn't get in trouble. They didn't look at their daughters and consider the fact that they were (and still are) the victims and as such, their need for to feel safe, to see justice and to receive counselling should have come first.

If they had put their daughter's needs first, Josh would not have returned to that house without having completed a treatment program, if ever.  They would not have said yes to the TV shows which made the girls interact with their abuser as if nothing had ever happened.  And most of all, they would have reported Josh to the appropriate authorities (i.e., the police) to show the girls that they matter more than their abuser. 

They protected Josh at the expense of his sisters which is well and truly f*cked up.  

 

BTW, the article is here http://teaminfocus.com.au/ten-things-every-person-should-be-able-to-affirm-in-the-face-of-the-duggar-family-tragedy/ 

I like this point.

 

Furthermore, I think I know why they did this. It's always so much more pleasant to identify with the abuser -- who''s powerful and in control -- than with the abused, especially if you're stupid and totally lacking in empahy like JimBob and the missus. (well, that, and the fact that Josh has, you know, testicles)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Churchhoney

[autumnh]

YES!!!!

And thank you for stating it so directly.

We are not allowing speculation about the identity of the non-family member. Such posts will be hidden or edited.

 

Bella, you'd think right? THAT to me is the worst part...the defenders who just.don't. acknowledge.it. 

 

They are making him out to be some sick hero type of the right....all the while when the SISTERS have to sit there, smile and pretend all is ok.

 

It just makes my heart hurt. W.T.F...ugh

Edited May 26, 2015 by autumnh

[lottiedottie]

Agree. For me, and lot of others I think, the most baffling thing about the Duggars has always been how they managed to get media - any media - to agree to their edicts regarding publicity - canned questions only etc. Ding ding ding!! Shouldn't this fact have been the very first clue that something was wrong? It's been incredible. Time and time again, the media bowed to their conditions. You can only ask questions on this list. You can only photograph this etc. I was expecting to see curtsies and hear "Your Royal Highness..." after a while. Not at all baffling now, however.

Why would this be a clue that something is wrong? It's very common for interviews to be set up this way. If you are a reporter, sometimes the only way you get the interview is to agree to ask only specific questions or questions about certain subjects. Sometimes, specific questions are off limits (ask them and the interview will be over) Politicians, celebrities, personalities...they all have interview criteria. This is really not unusual.

[Dawn16]

I'm sorry I'm not up on the latest news, but where did you get this info from? Was that the age of the victim that he wasn't related to? All of his sisters (all of the five he had at the time) were older than this, or so I thought.

This is speculation based on the belief that the records were destroyed at the request of a victim who is still a minor.  He does have a sister who was born in late 1997, and thus would have been four and five during the incidents outlined in the police report and still a minor today. People have put that together with the allegation in the report that someone was touched inappropriately while sitting on his lap listening to a book.  However, as far I know, this is merely speculation based on the little real information available.  It's unfortunate for the victims that their identities can't just remain private; however, the age range of the victims is significant in terms of what sort of help Josh needed and what kind of risk he is to commit crimes in the future. 

 

I'd like to believe that many of his internet supporters would change their tune if they read the police report.  And the fact that all this is so public is the result of Jim Bob and Michelle intentionally putting their victimized children on a reality television show.  I just pray that somehow all this will help other victims of sexual abuse who are suffering in silence...if only Josh's "supporters" would just STFU.  

[Gianthambeast]

Man one of the things I can't get over is the victim-blaming in the Gothard curriculum and the constan tsexual  shaming dished out by Michelle.  These people  have an unfathomably perverse set of values.  Remember when they made Jana give the music box to Jessa instead of punishing Jessa for being a bully? Even in a relatively small incident like that they blamed the victim and made her bear all the burden.

.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[Churchhoney]

I take Anna at her word that she knew. I think it's a mistake to try to superimpose our "worldly" view onto what we think her natural reaction would be to this information. Anna was born into Quiverfull, into the patriarchy, and carefully indoctrinated and shielded from outside influences all her life up until her marriage. I think people are underestimating the cultural differences here.

I recall that there was another blog notorious case years ago - Doug Phillips, douchelord of Vision Forum, I think it was who married them - where an actual, known child molestor got married off to a woman in the movement. I was just a lurker, but I remember people at Free Jinger reached out to make sure the bride-to-be was fully informed. My impression at the time was that she seemed to regard that as persecution of a repentant man. The wedding went forward. If anybody wants more precise detail, I could steel myself to dig around, but it's really disheartening stuff.

 

I think you make some really good points, but I still wonder whether and why Josh and company woudl have explicitly described his "mistake" to Anna -- who was clearly picked out to save the situation by quickly marrying Josh and making him a good Christian dad --  when they put it so vaguely and softpedal it so much in every other statement we're aware of (not that there haven't been statements we're not aware of).

 

And I can certainly see people at Free Jinger trying to make sure somebody was informed, but I don't know that there was a Free-Jinger-type insider available in the Josh-and-Anna courtship, was there? There was the unknown Oprah whistleblower, of course, but somebody who could easily email Harpo Productions couldn't necessarily reach Anna by similar means ..... And I keep thinking of Doug Phillips. I haven't followed the sickening Lourdes situation closely, but has anybody ever said that DP described that situation to them as anything but as a basically consensual sexual affair (which it so was not)? Seems that the actual perpetrators of these things (and their close supporters, like their parents, in Josh's case) mostly continue to whitewash things and describe them as vaguely as they can manage even while they're ostensibly "confessing.

 

I really think the jury's still out on what Anna knew in advance.

[Soup333]

This is speculation based on the belief that the records were destroyed at the request of a victim who is still a minor.  He does have a sister who was born in late 1997, and thus would have been four and five during the incidents outlined in the police report and still a minor today. 

 

Thanks for answering. I thought Joy was older than that at the time. 

 

Edited to add (before I get attacked): Not that it makes it any better had she been seven instead of four or five. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Soup333

[Beaner]

I think Anna was clueless. Completely . Her dad, not so much. If my instincts are correct, and based on what other posters have suggested, he knew A LOT. That makes him just as disgusting as JB & M, maybe even more so.

[autumnh]

I am always continually amazed at how people who were probably once were, self thinkers  could fall into a cult led by a dude (he is NOT a man) who never married...claims to have never kissed or had sexual contact with a female(yeah...we've read THOSE reports) and allow them to run their life...tell them how to conduct their sex lives, relationships, how to give birth (sorry....my husband knew better than to EVEN tell me what was going to happen with my nether regions lol) dictate to them how all of said topics would go..I just don't get it...but then again...most people don't "GET" cults....

 

I am especially appalled by the women defenders who have DAUGHTERS....it is so disconcerting.

 

Sorry but the whole thing just sickens me.

[Wellfleet]

Why would this be a clue that something is wrong? It's very common for interviews to be set up this way. If you are a reporter, sometimes the only way you get the interview is to agree to ask only specific questions or questions about certain subjects. Sometimes, specific questions are off limits (ask them and the interview will be over) Politicians, celebrities, personalities...they all have interview criteria. This is really not unusual.

 

I understand what you're saying - and I have no problem with Julia Roberts, for example, telling reporters "No questions about my kids or my personal life" because she's being interviewed about the movie she's promoting. Not her own life. But the Duggars whole "drawing" point - the reason they were offered a TV spot in the first place - was how different they were from the "average American family." It seems very natural to me that people would have questions about their lifestyle and the beliefs behind it. If they were so OK with it all, why wouldn't they share it?

[Celia Rubenstein]

I think you make some really good points, but I still wonder whether and why Josh and company woudl have explicitly described his "mistake" to Anna -- who was clearly picked out to save the situation by quickly marrying Josh and making him a good Christian dad --  when they put it so vaguely and softpedal it so much in every other statement we're aware of (not that there haven't been statements we're not aware of).

 

No way do I believe Anna knew the real story about what went on.  I simply cannot imagine ANY of the people involved actually describing to Anna the specific acts Josh committed. Or who he did it to.  It's just too shocking. 

 

I am guessing that to the extent anything was said at all, it was vague as hell, full of euphemisms and left her with the impression he had maybe masterbated or something (gasp!)  No way would they shock delicate virginal Anna with the gory details. I just don't believe it.  

[Oldernowiser]

I'm thinking that JB and the "church elders" had decided Josh's problem was that he needed to get some, and soon. So everyone whitewashed his issues to get him married off ASAP. Anna was just the fastest way to the desired result...Josh wouldn't be out there potentially putting the TLC $$$ at risk and hey, she's a female, so she doesn't count anyway.

[bluebonnet]

Like Found at Peanut says, I take Anna at her word.  Everything she says rings true based on her own belief system.  Just read the testimonials of people who grew up in it.  The article I linked has the author discussing how he was so sure he wouldn't be able to marry because he would one day have to confess to his future wife and her father every single lurid thought he ever had.  This is what they do, they confess it and they repent and then everything is gravy.  If you read through other testimonials, you'll see that yes, even the women have to confess these things to their parents.  The Duggar girls discuss it in their own book.  

 

It's a completely different culture, a very different world.  Normal people just can't imagine something like this because it is so very different.  But if Anna and her parents didn't act exactly as she claims they did, it would be an indication that they weren't actually good Gothardites.  

[Aethera]

A reminder - we're not allowing speculation as to whether the other Duggar boys have also molested anyone - there's no proof or rumor or indication that they have, and they've been through enough with this madness already. Going to Alert was something they all did. Thanks.

[Potato511]

I still wonder how the incest was initially revealed. How would anyone outside of the immediate family have known about that (even if they knew about the non-family victims)? Would JB have let that out intentionally, even within the cult?

[JoanArc]

 

It's a completely different culture, a very different world.  Normal people just can't imagine something like this because it is so very different.

Regardless of who knew/didn't know what this is something we all need to keep in mind. That world is a funhouse mirror, and now we mental damage and mental illness added to the mix.

 

It occurs to me that they didn't have to keep it secret forever. NO ONE knew the show would go on for 10 years, be super popular, and make lots of money. Even now they just needed another 5 years or so of media attention to be set for life financially. If it came out long after the show was over, say 10 years, I don't think there'd be as big a hullabaloo, even though it deserves one.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I really think this is going to be a domino effect in many ways. I think for Josh, this will cause a very public meltdown of epic proportions. Several DUIs, mug shots on TMZ, other victims will come forward etc. This is just the beginning. Everyone will be watching his every move.

I second this. I think we may get a full-on meltdown as more stuff comes out - and I definitely think there's more stuff to come out.

If Josh felt like he could do this multiple times to his sisters, who were always dressed modestly, what did he do or try to do with "worldy" women once he was in DC or otherwise out in public unchaperoned? If Gothard teaches that girls are asking for it by dressing in pants, shorts, tank tops, bathing suits, work out clothes, etc - did Josh think all these worldy women he encountered in DC or elsewhere were asking for it even more? I wouldn't be surprised to hear about him sexually harassing someone if not something worse. Surely in DC everywhere he went women were "defrauding" him- how did he treat those women?

Where did the chest binding stuff come from? I have never once heard that the Duggars make their daughters do this.

Chest binding?!!! Is this actually a thing? I seriously didn't know "chest binding" was a thing (even in Fundie culture). The first thing I do when I get home is take my bra off. I can't imagine having to keep your chest bound at all times - even in your own home! How uncomfortable!

Edited May 26, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[lottiedottie]

I understand what you're saying - and I have no problem with Julia Roberts, for example, telling reporters "No questions about my kids or my personal life" because she's being interviewed about the movie she's promoting. Not her own life. But the Duggars whole "drawing" point - the reason they were offered a TV spot in the first place - was how different they were from the "average American family." It seems very natural to me that people would have questions about their lifestyle and the beliefs behind it. If they were so OK with it all, why wouldn't they share it?

Because they really have no obligation to? They may not be celebrities on the level of Julia Roberts, but even the Duggars think they are entitled to not answer any questions they deem inappropriate. That's my guess, anyway. I get the sense that the public and media were curious about them because they are outside the norm, and people wanted to know more about them. So they had the power. They could say "Yes, we'll agree to an interview, but here are some things we won't discuss..." If you are a media outlet, you want access and you are willing to agree to their terms to get a story--because coverage of these weirdos gets viewers/readers/ratings. It's a mutually beneficial situation--The Duggars agree to an interview given certain parameters.They get exposure, which translates into money. The media company gets a story that may get them ratings/pageviews, which also translates into money.

 

Right or wrong, that's just the way it works, I think.

[TheFinalRose]

I have a question. I have watched a lot of the shows, and I know who some of the lil'Duggars are. Here are the characters I know: Josh, Anna, Jessa, Ben, Jill & Derrik, Jinger.  And then there are a  bunch of little kids who all look alike.

 

The ones who don't stick out in my mind are Janna (jana?) and does she have a twin named JD?  I think that is what I have picked up over the past few days mainly from this board. So Janna and JD are the ones that Josh made the joke that was recently featured on People magazine's website which went something like: Jana and JD can be Josh and Anna's chaperone and it would be like a double date cuz they are from Arkansas, y'all.  People called it an "incest" joke.

 

So, did I also read on this board that JD is the only Duggar kid who is not married that doesn't live with the family? Did I imagine that? Is that true? If so, why is he living somewhere else?  

 

 

 

[autumnh]

Bin posted this shortly after he and Jessa started courting..........thoughts?

 

 

 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Bin posted this shortly after he and Jessa started courting..........thoughts?

This gives me some hope that Jessa has found support in Ben that is better than what she had in her own parents. And it makes me hope against hope that they (if Jessa wants to) may break away from this mess. Edited May 26, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Maizie131]

Quiverfull of Shit....good article.

 

http://gawker.com/quiverfull-of-shit-a-guide-to-the-duggars-scary-brand-1706557073?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Oh. My. God.  I truly had no idea, but I believe every word of it.

[Found A Peanut]

I think you make some really good points, but I still wonder whether and why Josh and company woudl have explicitly described his "mistake" to Anna -- who was clearly picked out to save the situation by quickly marrying Josh and making him a good Christian dad --  when they put it so vaguely and softpedal it so much in every other statement we're aware of (not that there haven't been statements we're not aware of).

 

And I can certainly see people at Free Jinger trying to make sure somebody was informed, but I don't know that there was a Free-Jinger-type insider available in the Josh-and-Anna courtship, was there? There was the unknown Oprah whistleblower, of course, but somebody who could easily email Harpo Productions couldn't necessarily reach Anna by similar means ..... And I keep thinking of Doug Phillips. I haven't followed the sickening Lourdes situation closely, but has anybody ever said that DP described that situation to them as anything but as a basically consensual sexual affair (which it so was not)? Seems that the actual perpetrators of these things (and their close supporters, like their parents, in Josh's case) mostly continue to whitewash things and describe them as vaguely as they can manage even while they're ostensibly "confessing.

 

I really think the jury's still out on what Anna knew in advance.

There's just no comparison, I think, between what statements are made to outsiders who are "of the world" and insiders in the movement or from the Duggar home church. A LOT of people in the home church knew exactly what happened, that's how it leaked out onto the Internet in such specific detail all those years ago. The Duggar home church believes in public confession of sins before the church. But Jim Bob still stonewalled the police investigation when Harpo turned them in after the anonymous tip. Of course they soft pedal it to outsiders. But Anna and her family were not at all outsiders.

So far as Doug Phillips, I think there you have the difference between flock and shepherd or, rather, between the sheep and the con who's fleecing them. No, I've never heard of him admitting to sexual assault and rape. Neither has Gothard admitted to the full truth of his grooming, harassment, and molestation of young women. The Patriarchs have at least that much in common with wider society - leaders often grant themselves special exemptions from the rules. Phillips and Gothard are just especially loathsome examples of it.

[Iguessnot]

 

 

Its on yt: 19 Kids And Counting | Season 10 Episode 21 | Digging In With the Duggars | May 19, 2015

I have Tivo with Comcast Xfinity DC Metro area and it was labeling the current season as season 9. Last night I was able to watch the gender announcement episode, but most times I received various error messages when trying to access other on demand episodes. That's why I quickly picked up the episode on Amazon. Today, the Duggars have disappeared from Xfinity on Demand

Edited May 26, 2015 by Iguessnot

[Chalby]

I agree with you. I think she knew that he made some "bad mistakes as a young teenager that were sexual in nature." Period. She'd count that as "knowing" because that's still how he and the rents describe it, basically.

But don't forget, Anna is a good daughter. Her father accepted Josh as a suitor, so despite any reservations she may have had, she couldn't go against her father.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

A lot of us are assuming that the family will blame Josh if (or when) the TLC gravy train ends. I'm really worried that instead of blaming Josh, they'll blame the girls.

[bluebonnet]

Because they really have no obligation to? They may not be celebrities on the level of Julia Roberts, but even the Duggars think they are entitled to not answer any questions they deem inappropriate. That's my guess, anyway. I get the sense that the public and media were curious about them because they are outside the norm, and people wanted to know more about them. So they had the power. They could say "Yes, we'll agree to an interview, but here are some things we won't discuss..." If you are a media outlet, you want access and you are willing to agree to their terms to get a story--because coverage of these weirdos gets viewers/readers/ratings. It's a mutually beneficial situation--The Duggars agree to an interview given certain parameters.They get exposure, which translates into money. The media company gets a story that may get them ratings/pageviews, which also translates into money.

 

Right or wrong, that's just the way it works, I think.

The problem is, they were never even given hard questions based on what they said in interviews.  Michelle can tell her bikini story of how she's in charge of men's sexuality, and no journalist ever said "hey, you're full of shit because in the real world, men manage to not rape and harass all the time."  Maybe the Duggars didn't want their political work to be part of the interview (so no discussing their intense bigotry).  But what they brought to interviews should be fair game.  

[Shibori]

I'm afraid the way this was presented to Anna was that the abuse happened and it was the girls fault, and that if she (Anna) and any future daughters didn't "defraud" or tempt Josh then there wouldn't be anything to worry about. Thus, it's all within her control (which she might find comforting) but also entirely her fault if things go bad.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

But don't forget, Anna is a good daughter. Her father accepted Josh as a suitor, so despite any reservations she may have had, she couldn't go against her father.

I agree and I shudder to think what Anna may have experienced being married to & forced to always submit to this creep.

[bluebonnet]

I'm afraid the way this was presented to Anna was that the abuse happened and it was the girls fault, and that if she (Anna) and any future daughters didn't "defraud" or tempt Josh then there wouldn't be anything to worry about. Thus, it's all within her control (which she might find comforting) but also entirely her fault if things go bad.

Based on their statements to the press and on the Gothard teaching and testimonials all over the internet, that's almost certainly how it was presented.  

[Churchhoney]

There's just no comparison, I think, between what statements are made to outsiders who are "of the world" and insiders in the movement or from the Duggar home church. A LOT of people in the home church knew exactly what happened, that's how it leaked out onto the Internet in such specific detail all those years ago. The Duggar home church believes in public confession of sins before the church. But Jim Bob still stonewalled the police investigation when Harpo turned them in after the anonymous tip. Of course they soft pedal it to outsiders. But Anna and her family were not at all outsiders.

So far as Doug Phillips, I think there you have the difference between flock and shepherd or, rather, between the sheep and the con who's fleecing them. No, I've never heard of him admitting to sexual assault and rape. Neither has Gothard admitted to the full truth of his grooming, harassment, and molestation of young women. The Patriarchs have at least that much in common with wider society - leaders often grant themselves special exemptions from the rules. Phillips and Gothard are just especially loathsome examples of it.

 

Yeah, it's funny. I do feel sure that the Keller parents knew, and that that part played out exactly as you say.

 

For some reason, I still have this image of everybody talking kind of vaguely around Anna -- I guess it's because I think of all the older generation clubbing together and deciding that she MUST be married off to Josh in a big hurry and then sort of soft-pedaling everything in her presence to ensure that she'll be thrilled. Don't get that idea from anywhere except from a scene that's played out in my head, though! I guess I see them treating Anna like a child-woman who wouldn't count among the adults and as a very important means to an end. ... But, as I said, all in my head, perhaps.

[autumnh]

A lot of us are assuming that the family will blame Josh if (or when) the TLC gravy train ends. I'm really worried that instead of blaming Josh, they'll blame the girls.

 

I think most of us realize that they will blame the girls...the girls have no hierarchy...smuggar is heads and tails above the rest...he is the precious one.

 

 

So sickening.

[Chalby]

It's a completely different culture, a very different world.  Normal people just can't imagine something like this because it is so very different.  But if Anna and her parents didn't act exactly as she claims they did, it would be an indication that they weren't actually good Gothardites.  

If Anna and Josh are expected to confess their innermost thoughts to their parents, who would Jimbob and Michelle be expected to confess to? I am sure they have had inappropriate fantasies, despite evidence showing they are not 'normal', heh.

[autumnh]

Yeah, it's funny. I do feel sure that the Keller parents knew, and that that part played out exactly as you say.

 

For some reason, I still have this image of everybody talking kind of vaguely around Anna -- I guess it's because I think of all the older generation clubbing together and deciding that she MUST be married off to Josh in a big hurry and then sort of soft-pedaling everything in her presence to ensure that she'll be thrilled. Don't get that idea from anywhere except from a scene that's played out in my head, though! I guess I see them treating Anna like a child-woman who wouldn't count among the adults and as a very important means to an end. ... But, as I said, all in my head, perhaps.

 

Anna's sister, Susanna seemingly threw up the WTF ever flag and did her own thing...the Duggars did NOT approve. 

 

 

Ohhhh....just goes to show how far reaching their ridiculous power is....

 

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/12/duggars-shun-pregnant-susanna-keller/

[Almost 3000]

I understand what you're saying - and I have no problem with Julia Roberts, for example, telling reporters "No questions about my kids or my personal life" because she's being interviewed about the movie she's promoting. Not her own life. But the Duggars whole "drawing" point - the reason they were offered a TV spot in the first place - was how different they were from the "average American family." It seems very natural to me that people would have questions about their lifestyle and the beliefs behind it. If they were so OK with it all, why wouldn't they share it?

Perhaps it was TLC that set the parameters of many interviews. The Duggars have attended events where their beliefs weren't hidden but those that hit the mainstream audience were cleaned up to show a less politically and religiously extreme family. Duck Dynasty is another example of this dishonest story telling.

[autumnh]

I have no DOUBT that TLC walked on eggshells around their moneymakers.....

[farmgal4]

I think Anna was clueless. Completely . Her dad, not so much. If my instincts are correct, and based on what other posters have suggested, he knew A LOT. That makes him just as disgusting as JB & M, maybe even more so.

If her dad knew EVERYTHING and still allowed her to marry the pervert, then he is absolutely more disgusting than JB and M. He, more than anyone, should have been looking out for her best interest, which was to NOT marry an incestuous pervert.

Edited May 26, 2015 by AmandaPanda
removed pedophile reference

[autumnh]

Perhaps it was TLC that set the parameters of many interviews. The Duggars have attended events where their beliefs weren't hidden but those that hit the mainstream audience were cleaned up to show a less politically and religiously extreme family. Duck Dynasty is another example of this dishonest story telling.

 

The Duggars were the highest rated show...hence making TLC a SHIT ton of meny... TLC would go to the ends of the earth to keep them happy and to keep the gravy train rolling.

If her dad knew EVERYTHING and still allowed her to marry the pervert, then he is absolutely more disgusting that JB and M. He, more than anyone, should have been looking out for her best interest, which was to NOT marry an incestuous pervert.

 

Her dad was also a Gothard follower....we cannot expect much from them.

Edited May 26, 2015 by AmandaPanda
removed inflammatory language from quote

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

From that article: "While Keller once was considered worthy enough to act as Anna and Josh’s courting chaperone before they tied the knot, according to the source, Keller’s slide into sin resulted in Duggar patriarch Jim Bob sitting in judgment and striking even the mention of her name from the family’s show."

Sexually abusing one's sisters MULTIPLE times is totally a childish mistake that can be forgiven and forgotten. But have sex with another consenting adult, get pregnant (I mean she didn't have an abortion, so they should be happy), etc and you are never to be spoken of again.

Anna, take your kids and go to Susannah's house now. She knows what's up with your in-laws and won't judge if you want to leave Josh.

[autumnh]

From that article: "While Keller once was considered worthy enough to act as Anna and Josh’s courting chaperone before they tied the knot, according to the source, Keller’s slide into sin resulted in Duggar patriarch Jim Bob sitting in judgment and striking even the mention of her name from the family’s show."

Sexually abusing one's sisters MULTIPLE times is totally a childish mistake that can be forgiven and forgotten. But have sex with another consenting adult, get pregnant (I mean she didn't have an abortion, so they should be happy), etc and you are never to be spoken of again.

Anna, take your kids and go to Susannah's house now. She knows what's up with your in-laws and won't judge if you want to leave Josh.

 

Yes.