Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[RazzleberryPie]

Well Derrick and Jill made a baby, so........ew........brain bleach.......but, if he has the stealth and the gumption in him to woo somebody else, then more power to him. To me, he is nice, sweet, neat, totally, but NOT attractive. His brother got all the personality in that family.

[Grits]

I guess TLC cares more about Honey Boo Boo and her sisters. They canceled that sow without delay. TLC should show the Duggar girls the same respect.

[Aethera]

OK, enough please on the speculation about who had sex with who based on that blind item. Until we see something from a reputable news source, I'd like us to shut that conversation down.  I'd also ask that if we do find a reputable source for it, we don't continue with the joking about who 'banged' who, please!

[Dejana]

Crazy Days and Nights might be even less reliable than BlindGossip, and that's saying something. The site got exposed by the NY Post years ago for making things up, but the world of blind items doesn't exactly live and die with ethics, so being caught in lies wasn't necessarily an impediment to survival. All those sites have to do to stay in business is write things that enough people want to believe (real-pesron shippers are frequent targets), and they're gold. If it doesn't come true, it's because "they" have snowed the media into covering up the "real truth", not because an editor looking for hits just made stuff up. A huge red flag that an item might not be on the up and up is that if it comes along after a major scandal breaks, when it's really easy for anyone looking to be a part of the story to take what's known and go the real person fan fiction route with it. The people who run CDaN and BlindGossip probably couldn't even spell Duggar three days ago and now they're insiders? Sure. 

 

A fair number of blind items from Lainey Gossip have checked out, but she's a real entertainment reporter in Canada and puts her name to everything she says. A good blind item comes ahead of time and once the news breaks, then you have the a-ha moment.

[flyingdi]

I don't blame Erica Hill for anything. It wasn't an investigative piece. It was a episode of the Duggars show. Really, how hard hitting is it going to be?

[NEGirl]

I  believe Anna did not know the full story regarding Josh. I think she and her parents were probably told some watered down bs version like the story that J'Chell and Boob have posted on their FB page.  People can say Anna is annoying but I think most people would agree she loves her children and would want to do what is best for them. I would guess she is probably beyond broken hearted and in shock right now.  I can't imagine she would willingly stay with Josh if she thought he was a danger to the kids.  I would guess at this point her head is spinning and she does not know what to think or do.  I hope she has someone she can turn to who can give her the help she needs.

[Celia Rubenstein]

http://www.people.com/article/michael-seewald-josh-duggar-reaction

 

Hey, Jessa. How do you feel that you FIL is supporting your brother that possibly molested you?

 

Wow, that sure is an FU internet moment courtesy of  Pa Seewald, I guess.  A direct one.  He goes down the list of things people are saying and writes every concern off, one after the other.  

 

Two things really offended me.  After dismissing the criminal nature of what Josh did as being the concern of authorities, he moves on to the matter of Josh "sinning," and shares this opinion:

 

Many times it is simply lack of opportunity or fear of consequences that keep us from falling into grievous sin even though our fallen hearts would love to indulge the flesh. We should not be shocked that this occurred in the Duggar’s home, we should rather be thankful to God if we have been spared such, and pray that he would keep us and our children from falling.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I think a lot more than lack of opportunity and fear of punishment keeps people from groping their little sisters as they sleep at night.  Most people have no desire to do anything of the sort.  The vast majority, I would think.  And many of those who either do want or are curious about that kind of contact manage to resist the urge because they know it is sick.  Pa Keller is talking about about a very small minority of people who have messed up urges and lack the ability to control themselves, and then suggests we are all *this close* to doing the same things.   He could not be more full of crap in my opinion.  

 

And his Gothardy thinking slips out despite his all the lip service he pays to the suffering and blamelessness of the victims:

 

For those who bear the emotional scars of abuse I empathize with you. Healing is possible and many people have found it. Turn to Jesus Christ and find your identity in him. Lean upon him as he cleanses away the guilt and pain.

 

Why would a victim be feeling any guilt?  He just said they were blameless.  Hmph.  I think his true opinion slipped out there just a little at the end.  Nice try, Pa Seewald.  You should have quit while you were ahead.

 

That being said, I can understand wanting to support your in-laws in their time of crisis.  And I think it takes guts given the nature of what is going on.  But this is not support.  It is a rationalization and minimization of what Josh did, and to the extend that it shifts even a little bit of blame to the victims, it is just wrongheaded.  

 

Pa Seewald really should have just stayed out of it. 

 

Here is a link to his whole spiel:

http://seewalds.com/grace-greater-than-our-sin/#more-341

[wanderwoman]

I guess TLC cares more about Honey Boo Boo and her sisters. They canceled that sow without delay. TLC should show the Duggar girls the same respect.

The more I've thought about it, the more I think they owe people a public explanation. So, while I completely support the girls and don't want them reliving it on camera for our benefit, here's what I think should happen. I think the series is done. It was heading to an inevitable end anyway and the show was repetitive. The younger kids deserve a private childhood and education they cannot get so long as this show, and the tours, continue. But, I do feel that we, the public, are owed an explanation and an apology from TLC and Jim Bob and Michelle,...and Josh. They subjected us to a miscarriage, Josie's painful beginnings, and several funerals under the guise that they were an open book and wanted to show people how God provides and maintains them, even at the worst of times. So, film an episode where they tel us how they feel they made the right choices by filming this show, knowing that the publicity meant exposure for Josh and this victims. I want them to explain how they envisioned this and want to know how they could continue popping out kids and holding themselves up as role models with this in their closet? I want to know why and how they reconcile their statements about purity when they knew they were, simultaneously, shaming their daughters by insisting that their modesty was protection? How could Michelle Falk about giving your partner a damaged bike when she knew her skn, using the analogy, wreck the girl's bikes? How can you say you're able to effectively manage your family when your children were being sexually abused right in front of you. The incident of the book reading and laundry room incident tells me that Josh wasn't even concerned with doing this in a secretive manner. Where the fuck were Michelle and Jim Bob? How, unless they were utterly ignorant, could they think sending a kid to do physical labor would cure him? I think they need to biblically address these issues and donate their income to a sexual abuse charity. You don't even need to show the children. But, they can't have fame without accountability and they should've never made themselves public figures with something this big in the picture.

[Wellfleet]

If we call out Erica Hill, we must call out every single 'journalist' who had any interaction with the Duggar family and failed to ask the hard questions, failed to researched, failed to call out the parents for their despicable ways.  I mean, Michelle and Jim Bob proudly and gladly said over and over and over again that women are in charge of male sexuality, women are required to have sex with their husbands no matter what, their children were in charge of raising their other children, etc and so on.  Instead of getting real with this family, people who interviewed them coo-ed and giggled and acted as though they were the greatest ever.  It's unfortunate that Erica Hill may become known as the last person to coddle the family, but she's just part of the larger problem within journalism.  

 

As much as I hated People for being the Duggar publicity machine for so long, I'm actually very pleased that they are giving no shits about being the anti-Duggar machine now.  It's a little late, but at least they are doing something.  

 

Agree. For me, and lot of others I think, the most baffling thing about the Duggars has always been how they managed to get media - any media - to agree to their edicts regarding publicity - canned questions only etc. Ding ding ding!! Shouldn't this fact have been the very first clue that something was wrong? It's been incredible. Time and time again, the media bowed to their conditions. You can only ask questions on this list. You can only photograph this etc. I was expecting to see curtsies and hear "Your Royal Highness..." after a while. Not at all baffling now, however.

[xls]

NBC's Erica Hill should be cringing as she watches herself gush all over the Duggars in that episode.

Way to shed unfavorable light on your network again, NBC.

 

TLC, do the right thing and cancel all things Duggar.

Don't continue to make money off the back of the Duggar victims or you are as bad as their parents.

 

 

As should Ann Curry and the Today Show staff. "America's favorite family", got treated with tender loving kid gloves over there. No negativity! Shame on the press.

[Oldernowiser]

As much as certain political figures like to claim that the "mainstream media" is controlled by liberal interests, the reality is that it is largely controlled by conglomerates run by extremely wealthy fiscal and social conservatives...so if a "journalist" actually had the stones to pose some hard questions to the parents of America's favorite feel-good uber Christian family, it probably would have been career suicide.

Investigative journalism is a dying breed, just because of that financial reality.

[Gianthambeast]

Wow, that sure is an FU internet moment courtesy of  Pa Seewald, I guess.  A direct one.  He goes down the list of things people are saying and writes every concern off, one after the other.  

 

Two things really offended me.  After dismissing the criminal nature of what Josh did as being the concern of authorities, he moves on to the matter of Josh "sinning," and shares this opinion:

 

 

I'm sorry, but I think a lot more than lack of opportunity and fear of punishment keeps people from groping their little sisters as they sleep at night.  Most people have no desire to do anything of the sort.  The vast majority, I would think.  And many of those who either do want or are curious about that kind of contact manage to resist the urge because they know it is sick.  Pa Keller is talking about about a very small minority of people who have messed up urges and lack the ability to control themselves, and then suggests we are all *this close* to doing the same things.   He could not be more full of crap in my opinion.  

 

And his Gothardy thinking slips out despite his all the lip service he pays to the suffering and blamelessness of the victims:

 

 

Why would a victim be feeling any guilt?  He just said they were blameless.  Hmph.  I think his true opinion slipped out there just a little at the end.  Nice try, Pa Seewald.  You should have quit while you were ahead.

 

That being said, I can understand wanting to support your in-laws in their time of crisis.  And I think it takes guts given the nature of what is going on.  But this is not support.  It is a rationalization and minimization of what Josh did, and to the extend that it shifts even a little bit of blame to the victims, it is just wrongheaded.  

 

Pa Seewald really should have just stayed out of it. 

 

Here is a link to his whole spiel:

http://seewalds.com/grace-greater-than-our-sin/#more-34

Didn't take the fucker long to pull the liberal-smear conspiracy/ they hate us for the sake of Christ!- card did it? Not gonna fly.  I've seen him express more outrage over the over the "sin" and error of simply being a Catholic than he does over Josh's proven crimes of Incest and Child molestation.

[Churchhoney]

Agree. For me, and lot of others I think, the most baffling thing about the Duggars has always been how they managed to get media - any media - to agree to their edicts regarding publicity - canned questions only etc. Ding ding ding!! Shouldn't this fact have been the very first clue that something was wrong? It's been incredible. Time and time again, the media bowed to their conditions. You can only ask questions on this list. You can only photograph this etc. I was expecting to see curtsies and hear "Your Royal Highness..." after a while. Not at all baffling now, however.

 

 

I think they got away with stifling questions because reporters had a hard time categorizing them and ended up figuring that the hard-question ban was no real issue on several different grounds.

 

They were on an entertainment show, so that suggested softball PR-agent-approved questions were okay to begin with. Because it was all just for entertainment, right? 

 

And then they were on a "reality" show that purported to give a documentary view of their family -- so they could argue that they weren't public figures, just folks living their everyday lives, so we're not going to play "gotcha" with them -- There are no public issues involved, right? Nothing they do is really any of our business. So that suggested bypassing tough questioning, too.

 

And then, finally and probably most significantly, they played the church card (and the motherhood and apple pie card, too) and people REALLY hang back from asking tough questions of an apparently sweet Christian mom.

 

The thing is, asking the tough questions as a journalist is actually hard -- intellectually, emotionally. You need guts to do it, and you need to carefully work out what you're going to ask so that you elicit real answers and don't let people slip away -- landing the right follow-ups at the right moment is hard work. .....And most people want to avoid such hard work.

 

Furthermore, TV entertainment-type journalists -- who are the ones who mostly interviewed the Duggars -- aren't used to doing that kind of tough questioning and would rather not, particularly when it involves questioning an aw-shucks good old papa and a sweet high-voiced Christian mom, who are sitting there in front of them with all their million kids. Not good for the reporter's image! Harassing these nice people in front of their 10-year-old little darlings? And entertainment reporters are tv stars, too.

 

Asking them the tough questions just wasn't going to happen, even if they hadn't put a prohibition on it, I expect.

[autumnh]

Quiverfull of Shit....good article.

 

http://gawker.com/quiverfull-of-shit-a-guide-to-the-duggars-scary-brand-1706557073?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[Quilt Fairy]

once TLC officially says bye-bye, some network is sure to want 'in' on the Duggars.

 

Don't say goodbye yet. If you look at the TLC listings starting in June, they still show 19K&C. This may just be an oversight on someone's part.

[Potato511]

 

Also a couple of detailed pieces over there on ATI teachings on sex (including full text of a Wisdom Booklet) and the idea that it's everybody's fault but the perpetrator's -- in other words, how ATI may have helped Smuggar become so smug. Same old stuff, of course, but much more detail than I'd seen before. 

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/05/24/atis-sex-ed-curriculum-silencing-victims-and-excusing-sex-crime/

Whoa. Reposting for others. Content warning for sexual abuse.

 

I live in NYC and Verizon Fios still has 5 episodes up.

Six episodes still available on Time Warner Cable. They have removed Episode #20, Duggars' Guide to Love

Edited May 25, 2015 by Potato511

[BulldogAreGreat]

Anna is an absolute moron. If Josh really did confess this to her, like she says in the People statement, and she decided she still wanted to marry him and have children with him after he said "I molested five girls, four of my sisters, some while they were sleeping" then she is a fucking lunatic. What kind of person would marry someone after hearing that? So I have to assume that she couldn't have possibly really known that. It's too pathetic. So she's making this public statement that she knew and she's okay with it, which is so stupid and gross. If she stays with this man she is the stupidest person I've ever seen on television. And I watch Teen Mom so that's saying a lot. How can she stay with him and say "I love you" and let him put his disgusting penis inside of her ? I would throw up.

I just don't, or can't, believe that Anna knew. What person in their right mind would marry into that? Especially knowing that she would be having kids as soon as possible. I'm a casual watcher at best. I read more here than I spend time watching the show, but from what I have seen she does seem like a good mother. Her kids seem engaged in that they are doing, excited, and interested. She appears to truly love them and care about them and for them. From what I have seen of her as a mother, I just can't believe that she knew. 

[Wellfleet]

Didn't take the fucker long to pull the liberal-smear conspiracy/ they hate us for the sake of Christ!- card did it? Not gonna fly.  I've seen him express more outrage over the over the "sin" and error of simply being a Catholic than he does over Josh's proven crimes of Incest and Child molestation.

 

I'm guessing that Boob might have floated Pa Seewald a few bills for doing this. Seriously.

[Potato511]

Am I the only one who can't make any sense out of the second paragraph here? Wander woman, what are: cache, ammo can, cacher, ammo cabs, premium, sl and swag?

I am betting the OP unintentionally copied some unrelated text in there, whoops...

[Churchhoney]

I just don't, or can't, believe that Anna knew. What person in their right mind would marry into that? Especially knowing that she would be having kids as soon as possible. I'm a casual watcher at best. I read more here than I spend time watching the show, but from what I have seen she does seem like a good mother. Her kids seem engaged in that they are doing, excited, and interested. She appears to truly love them and care about them and for them. From what I have seen of her as a mother, I just can't believe that she knew. 

 

I agree with you. I think she knew that he made some "bad mistakes as a young teenager that were sexual in nature." Period. She'd count that as "knowing" because that's still how he and the rents describe it, basically.

[farmgal4]

I just don't, or can't, believe that Anna knew. What person in their right mind would marry into that? Especially knowing that she would be having kids as soon as possible. I'm a casual watcher at best. I read more here than I spend time watching the show, but from what I have seen she does seem like a good mother. Her kids seem engaged in that they are doing, excited, and interested. She appears to truly love them and care about them and for them. From what I have seen of her as a mother, I just can't believe that she knew.

I don't know exactly how it was spelled out to Anna; probably something along the lines of Josh having "impure thoughts" and maybe that he touched "a" girl inappropriately which, in Anna's mind, could have been something as innocent as hand-holding. I would bet money that she was NEVER told that his sisters were involved. I'm going to give Anna the benefit of the doubt here and say that I don't think that she would have married him had she known that there was incest involved, but I could be wrong. What do y'all think?

Edited to add: I feel very sorry for Anna. I think Josh was like a knight-in-shining-armor to her. The Duggar family had everything that Anna's family didn't have, and I think she thought she was living a fairytale when Josh proposed to her. I think back to that pillow she had made that said "Josh and Anna" or some other dorky something written on it, and she slept on that pillow every night. I mean, the girl couldn't take her eyes off of him when they were together! He was her Romeo (I know <gag>) and now she finds this out. I can't even begin to imagine how she must feel right now. I just feel really, really bad for her right now. She was duped and she did not deserve this. Fuck you, Josh, Boob and Clown Car! Just fuck you!

Edited May 26, 2015 by farmgal4

[RazzleberryPie]

I think Anna, Jim Bob, and Michelle are very naive when it comes to Josh. Even without any professional treatment or evaluation they truly believe in their confused, brainwashed minds that he is cured. Now Josh - I think Josh is as sly as a fox.

I think Anna is Naive, JimBob is as sly as Josh, and Michelle is somewhere in the middle. I think Anna and her parents fully knew he had impure thoughts and touched other girls without their permission. YOu have to remember that their doctrine/teachings are insistent that men can't control their urges, women tempt them, and all this inappropriateness - even with your blood relatives who are children - happens all the time, but here's your solution: blame the victim, pray, cover up, put very little responsibility on the molester. 

 

Didn't take the fucker long to pull the liberal-smear conspiracy/ they hate us for the sake of Christ!- card did it? Not gonna fly.  I've seen him express more outrage over the over the "sin" and error of simply being a Catholic than he does over Josh's proven crimes of Incest and Child molestation.

Starting off with deflecting the real issue and blaming the liberal media is where he lost any credibility.

Edited May 26, 2015 by RazzleberryPie

[Fuzzysox]

I don't know exactly how it was spelled out to Anna; probably something along the lines of Josh having "impure thoughts" and maybe that he touched "a" girl inappropriately which, in Anna's mind, could have been something as innocent as hand-holding. I would bet money that she was NEVER told that his sisters were involved. I'm going to give Anna the benefit of the doubt here and say that I don't think that she would have married him had she known that there was incest involved, but I could be wrong. What do y'all think?

I think the same thing. Anna was not told the whole truth. If she had I highly doubt any normal woman would want to have a child with a man who couldn't control himself. I'm not buying the whole 14 and he was playing doctor. Josh is really twisted and doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.

 

First born son who got a free pass of no consequences makes a man who is just plain scum to me for feeling no remorse. He shows no shame either. Nasty trash. ewww

[wanderwoman]

I don't know exactly how it was spelled out to Anna; probably something along the lines of Josh having "impure thoughts" and maybe that he touched "a" girl inappropriately which, in Anna's mind, could have been something as innocent as hand-holding. I would bet money that she was NEVER told that his sisters were involved. I'm going to give Anna the benefit of the doubt here and say that I don't think that she would have married him had she known that there was incest involved, but I could be wrong. What do y'all think?

I think Anna knew. I think she was young and overly trusting and figured that God changed his heart because her dad said Josh was a good guy. I think we need to remember that Anna trusted her dad to say yes or no to a courtship with Josh. Her dad's mission in life was to change convicts' hearts to God. Josh might have been an example for him.

[BostonBlonde]

I couldn't stomach watching more than a few episodes but the episode "Duggars in Cuffs" is the only one available here. 

 

True. Story.

 

Someone at Boston Xfinity is witty.

Edited May 26, 2015 by BostonBlonde

[autumnh]

I just don't, or can't, believe that Anna knew. What person in their right mind would marry into that? Especially knowing that she would be having kids as soon as possible. I'm a casual watcher at best. I read more here than I spend time watching the show, but from what I have seen she does seem like a good mother. Her kids seem engaged in that they are doing, excited, and interested. She appears to truly love them and care about them and for them. From what I have seen of her as a mother, I just can't believe that she knew. 

 

I don't believe for one moment that Anna had any clue. I think the JB & M army told her she better just go along. I SERIOUSLY doubt Michelle is using her "sweet & precious" voice when she has been barking orders over the past week.

[Muffyn]

Celia Rubenstein, thank you for saying what I tried to say about Pa Seewald's posting.  It is not the liberal media going after this "holy" family.  It is not an issue of sin alone.  Josh committed criminal acts against his sister and another girl.  In his ministry, Pa may feel that leading convicts to Jesus will save them from committing such offenses.  Josh already had Jesus in his life, so what's his excuse.

 

A few years ago, I was driving through Nevada.  I could only get a religious station on the radio.  A preacher was talking about coveting. It started off well, focusing on why we covet things that others have and learning to happy with what you have, only looking to others to see if they needed help.  Then it took an unexpected turn, talking about incest and bestiality. I mentioned this to my niece who was raised in a religious cult; she said I wouldn't believe how often these topics were discussed, like every dog, kitten, chicken and deer in the area had best watch out because the only thing keeping people from raping animals was the bible.  Otherwise we are out of control.  Incest was addressed the same way, as if only their biblical teachings and the strict oversight of the group were preventing incest.  Maybe this lecture was meant for the Joshes of the world.  I hope the animals are safe from his urges.  After all, they don't wear clothing.  They could be defrauding him right now!  /sarcasm

[autumnh]

JB & Josh are like well....typical, smarmy used car dealers..................oh wait! ;)

[ChocolateAddict]

My favourite part from the TeamInFocus article (posted by Julia in the media thread and Nijntje here) was this 

 

It is evil to focus primarily on protecting Josh Duggar. My sister put it masterfully: “Stop imagining he’s your son and imagine they’re your daughters.” People who love goodness focus primarily on protecting the victims. Every time. Without exception. It is evil to do otherwise. 

 

I think that this was what Boob and Mechelle got wrong (excluding the whole modesty/no contact crap).  They looked at Josh and put his needs first. They didn't want him to have to face court, they didn't want to report him (presumably in case it hurt their reputation and his) and considered how to cover it all up so that Josh didn't get in trouble. They didn't look at their daughters and consider the fact that they were (and still are) the victims and as such, their need for to feel safe, to see justice and to receive counselling should have come first.

If they had put their daughter's needs first, Josh would not have returned to that house without having completed a treatment program, if ever.  They would not have said yes to the TV shows which made the girls interact with their abuser as if nothing had ever happened.  And most of all, they would have reported Josh to the appropriate authorities (i.e., the police) to show the girls that they matter more than their abuser. 

They protected Josh at the expense of his sisters which is well and truly f*cked up.  

 

BTW, the article is here http://teaminfocus.com.au/ten-things-every-person-should-be-able-to-affirm-in-the-face-of-the-duggar-family-tragedy/ 

[Soup333]

At first I thought that too, but one of his victims was 4 or 5. That is a totally different scenario.

 

I'm sorry I'm not up on the latest news, but where did you get this info from? Was that the age of the victim that he wasn't related to? All of his sisters (all of the five he had at the time) were older than this, or so I thought.

[RazzleberryPie]

Celia Rubenstein, thank you for saying what I tried to say about Pa Seewald's posting.  It is not the liberal media going after this "holy" family.  It is not an issue of sin alone.  Josh committed criminal acts against his sister and another girl.  In his ministry, Pa may feel that leading convicts to Jesus will save them from committing such offenses.  Josh already had Jesus in his life, so what's his excuse.

 

A few years ago, I was driving through Nevada.  I could only get a religious station on the radio.  A preacher was talking about coveting. It started off well, focusing on why we covet things that others have and learning to happy with what you have, only looking to others to see if they needed help.  Then it took an unexpected turn, talking about incest and bestiality. I mentioned this to my niece who was raised in a religious cult; she said I wouldn't believe how often these topics were discussed, like every dog, kitten, chicken and deer in the area had best watch out because the only thing keeping people from raping animals was the bible.  Otherwise we are out of control.  Incest was addressed the same way, as if only their biblical teachings and the strict oversight of the group were preventing incest.  Maybe this lecture was meant for the Joshes of the world.  I hope the animals are safe from his urges.  After all, they don't wear clothing.  They could be defrauding him right now!  /sarcasm

People with depraved, perverted minds are going to obsess on some really bizarre behaviors, no matter if they're up in a church 24/7 or not. I totally believe you. I can tell you some really creepy stories involving the pure, righteous AMISH in Pennsylvania. They have a whole lot of untreated mental illness, incest, substance abuse, spousal abuse, animal abuse, etc., and I'm talking about church members, not teens on Rumspringa. They do things most Christians, most people in general, would never think of, but all you have to do is confess and you're automatically forgiven, and you NEVER report anything to the English (nonAmish) police. Many 'bad things' are blamed on outside influence or demons. Of course, like Josh Duaggar, this forgiveness is used and abused quite often, but it's rarely found out outside of their community. I am a little suprised Josh hasn't pulled a 'the devil made me do it,' but I guess if your child sisters are already set up to be automatic scapegoats, Satan doesn't need to be involved.

[kathe5133]

I don't get the questions about "who". His SISTERS. Isn't that enough?

[CofCinci]

Count me in as another who believes that Anna wasn't told the whole story. There is no way she would have married him if she knew all the details. I imagine her secretly reading all the websites while pretending to use the loo this weekend.

She could be reading this.

#leavehim

Edited May 26, 2015 by CofCinci

[PinkSprinkles]

I'm sorry I'm not up on the latest news, but where did you get this info from? Was that the age of the victim that he wasn't related to? All of his sisters (all of the five he had at the time) were older than this, or so I thought.

 

The reports clearly say that 4/5 victims were his sisters and that one of the two oldest girls was not affected. In 2002-2003 there were only five Duggar girls. The excluded girl was either Jana/Jill because of the interview given that said the unaffected victim was working on their GED. 

[poopchute]

In the press release, Anna said she remembers feeling the "same shock" we are all feeling after hearing the news. So if she didn't REALLY know that Josh molested four of his sisters, then she is a real fucking asshole for pretending she knew.

If someone molested her kids, would she call it a "teenage mistake"? She's an idiot.

[Bella]

I don't get the questions about "who". His SISTERS. Isn't that enough?

YES!!!!

And thank you for stating it so directly.

We are not allowing speculation about the identity of the non-family member. Such posts will be hidden or edited.

[Found A Peanut]

I take Anna at her word that she knew. I think it's a mistake to try to superimpose our "worldly" view onto what we think her natural reaction would be to this information. Anna was born into Quiverfull, into the patriarchy, and carefully indoctrinated and shielded from outside influences all her life up until her marriage. I think people are underestimating the cultural differences here.

I recall that there was another blog notorious case years ago - Doug Phillips, douchelord of Vision Forum, I think it was who married them - where an actual, known child molestor got married off to a woman in the movement. I was just a lurker, but I remember people at Free Jinger reached out to make sure the bride-to-be was fully informed. My impression at the time was that she seemed to regard that as persecution of a repentant man. The wedding went forward. If anybody wants more precise detail, I could steel myself to dig around, but it's really disheartening stuff.

[Churchhoney]

My favourite part from the TeamInFocus article (posted by Julia in the media thread and Nijntje here) was this 

 

It is evil to focus primarily on protecting Josh Duggar. My sister put it masterfully: “Stop imagining he’s your son and imagine they’re your daughters.” People who love goodness focus primarily on protecting the victims. Every time. Without exception. It is evil to do otherwise. 

 

I think that this was what Boob and Mechelle got wrong (excluding the whole modesty/no contact crap).  They looked at Josh and put his needs first. They didn't want him to have to face court, they didn't want to report him (presumably in case it hurt their reputation and his) and considered how to cover it all up so that Josh didn't get in trouble. They didn't look at their daughters and consider the fact that they were (and still are) the victims and as such, their need for to feel safe, to see justice and to receive counselling should have come first.

If they had put their daughter's needs first, Josh would not have returned to that house without having completed a treatment program, if ever.  They would not have said yes to the TV shows which made the girls interact with their abuser as if nothing had ever happened.  And most of all, they would have reported Josh to the appropriate authorities (i.e., the police) to show the girls that they matter more than their abuser. 

They protected Josh at the expense of his sisters which is well and truly f*cked up.  

 

BTW, the article is here http://teaminfocus.com.au/ten-things-every-person-should-be-able-to-affirm-in-the-face-of-the-duggar-family-tragedy/ 

I like this point.

 

Furthermore, I think I know why they did this. It's always so much more pleasant to identify with the abuser -- who''s powerful and in control -- than with the abused, especially if you're stupid and totally lacking in empahy like JimBob and the missus. (well, that, and the fact that Josh has, you know, testicles)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Churchhoney

[autumnh]

YES!!!!

And thank you for stating it so directly.

We are not allowing speculation about the identity of the non-family member. Such posts will be hidden or edited.

 

Bella, you'd think right? THAT to me is the worst part...the defenders who just.don't. acknowledge.it. 

 

They are making him out to be some sick hero type of the right....all the while when the SISTERS have to sit there, smile and pretend all is ok.

 

It just makes my heart hurt. W.T.F...ugh

Edited May 26, 2015 by autumnh

[lottiedottie]

Agree. For me, and lot of others I think, the most baffling thing about the Duggars has always been how they managed to get media - any media - to agree to their edicts regarding publicity - canned questions only etc. Ding ding ding!! Shouldn't this fact have been the very first clue that something was wrong? It's been incredible. Time and time again, the media bowed to their conditions. You can only ask questions on this list. You can only photograph this etc. I was expecting to see curtsies and hear "Your Royal Highness..." after a while. Not at all baffling now, however.

Why would this be a clue that something is wrong? It's very common for interviews to be set up this way. If you are a reporter, sometimes the only way you get the interview is to agree to ask only specific questions or questions about certain subjects. Sometimes, specific questions are off limits (ask them and the interview will be over) Politicians, celebrities, personalities...they all have interview criteria. This is really not unusual.

[Dawn16]

I'm sorry I'm not up on the latest news, but where did you get this info from? Was that the age of the victim that he wasn't related to? All of his sisters (all of the five he had at the time) were older than this, or so I thought.

This is speculation based on the belief that the records were destroyed at the request of a victim who is still a minor.  He does have a sister who was born in late 1997, and thus would have been four and five during the incidents outlined in the police report and still a minor today. People have put that together with the allegation in the report that someone was touched inappropriately while sitting on his lap listening to a book.  However, as far I know, this is merely speculation based on the little real information available.  It's unfortunate for the victims that their identities can't just remain private; however, the age range of the victims is significant in terms of what sort of help Josh needed and what kind of risk he is to commit crimes in the future. 

 

I'd like to believe that many of his internet supporters would change their tune if they read the police report.  And the fact that all this is so public is the result of Jim Bob and Michelle intentionally putting their victimized children on a reality television show.  I just pray that somehow all this will help other victims of sexual abuse who are suffering in silence...if only Josh's "supporters" would just STFU.  

[Gianthambeast]

Man one of the things I can't get over is the victim-blaming in the Gothard curriculum and the constan tsexual  shaming dished out by Michelle.  These people  have an unfathomably perverse set of values.  Remember when they made Jana give the music box to Jessa instead of punishing Jessa for being a bully? Even in a relatively small incident like that they blamed the victim and made her bear all the burden.

.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[Churchhoney]

I take Anna at her word that she knew. I think it's a mistake to try to superimpose our "worldly" view onto what we think her natural reaction would be to this information. Anna was born into Quiverfull, into the patriarchy, and carefully indoctrinated and shielded from outside influences all her life up until her marriage. I think people are underestimating the cultural differences here.

I recall that there was another blog notorious case years ago - Doug Phillips, douchelord of Vision Forum, I think it was who married them - where an actual, known child molestor got married off to a woman in the movement. I was just a lurker, but I remember people at Free Jinger reached out to make sure the bride-to-be was fully informed. My impression at the time was that she seemed to regard that as persecution of a repentant man. The wedding went forward. If anybody wants more precise detail, I could steel myself to dig around, but it's really disheartening stuff.

 

I think you make some really good points, but I still wonder whether and why Josh and company woudl have explicitly described his "mistake" to Anna -- who was clearly picked out to save the situation by quickly marrying Josh and making him a good Christian dad --  when they put it so vaguely and softpedal it so much in every other statement we're aware of (not that there haven't been statements we're not aware of).

 

And I can certainly see people at Free Jinger trying to make sure somebody was informed, but I don't know that there was a Free-Jinger-type insider available in the Josh-and-Anna courtship, was there? There was the unknown Oprah whistleblower, of course, but somebody who could easily email Harpo Productions couldn't necessarily reach Anna by similar means ..... And I keep thinking of Doug Phillips. I haven't followed the sickening Lourdes situation closely, but has anybody ever said that DP described that situation to them as anything but as a basically consensual sexual affair (which it so was not)? Seems that the actual perpetrators of these things (and their close supporters, like their parents, in Josh's case) mostly continue to whitewash things and describe them as vaguely as they can manage even while they're ostensibly "confessing.

 

I really think the jury's still out on what Anna knew in advance.

[Soup333]

This is speculation based on the belief that the records were destroyed at the request of a victim who is still a minor.  He does have a sister who was born in late 1997, and thus would have been four and five during the incidents outlined in the police report and still a minor today. 

 

Thanks for answering. I thought Joy was older than that at the time. 

 

Edited to add (before I get attacked): Not that it makes it any better had she been seven instead of four or five. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Soup333

[Beaner]

I think Anna was clueless. Completely . Her dad, not so much. If my instincts are correct, and based on what other posters have suggested, he knew A LOT. That makes him just as disgusting as JB & M, maybe even more so.

[autumnh]

I am always continually amazed at how people who were probably once were, self thinkers  could fall into a cult led by a dude (he is NOT a man) who never married...claims to have never kissed or had sexual contact with a female(yeah...we've read THOSE reports) and allow them to run their life...tell them how to conduct their sex lives, relationships, how to give birth (sorry....my husband knew better than to EVEN tell me what was going to happen with my nether regions lol) dictate to them how all of said topics would go..I just don't get it...but then again...most people don't "GET" cults....

 

I am especially appalled by the women defenders who have DAUGHTERS....it is so disconcerting.

 

Sorry but the whole thing just sickens me.

[Wellfleet]

Why would this be a clue that something is wrong? It's very common for interviews to be set up this way. If you are a reporter, sometimes the only way you get the interview is to agree to ask only specific questions or questions about certain subjects. Sometimes, specific questions are off limits (ask them and the interview will be over) Politicians, celebrities, personalities...they all have interview criteria. This is really not unusual.

 

I understand what you're saying - and I have no problem with Julia Roberts, for example, telling reporters "No questions about my kids or my personal life" because she's being interviewed about the movie she's promoting. Not her own life. But the Duggars whole "drawing" point - the reason they were offered a TV spot in the first place - was how different they were from the "average American family." It seems very natural to me that people would have questions about their lifestyle and the beliefs behind it. If they were so OK with it all, why wouldn't they share it?

[Celia Rubenstein]

I think you make some really good points, but I still wonder whether and why Josh and company woudl have explicitly described his "mistake" to Anna -- who was clearly picked out to save the situation by quickly marrying Josh and making him a good Christian dad --  when they put it so vaguely and softpedal it so much in every other statement we're aware of (not that there haven't been statements we're not aware of).

 

No way do I believe Anna knew the real story about what went on.  I simply cannot imagine ANY of the people involved actually describing to Anna the specific acts Josh committed. Or who he did it to.  It's just too shocking. 

 

I am guessing that to the extent anything was said at all, it was vague as hell, full of euphemisms and left her with the impression he had maybe masterbated or something (gasp!)  No way would they shock delicate virginal Anna with the gory details. I just don't believe it.  

[Oldernowiser]

I'm thinking that JB and the "church elders" had decided Josh's problem was that he needed to get some, and soon. So everyone whitewashed his issues to get him married off ASAP. Anna was just the fastest way to the desired result...Josh wouldn't be out there potentially putting the TLC $$$ at risk and hey, she's a female, so she doesn't count anyway.

[bluebonnet]

Like Found at Peanut says, I take Anna at her word.  Everything she says rings true based on her own belief system.  Just read the testimonials of people who grew up in it.  The article I linked has the author discussing how he was so sure he wouldn't be able to marry because he would one day have to confess to his future wife and her father every single lurid thought he ever had.  This is what they do, they confess it and they repent and then everything is gravy.  If you read through other testimonials, you'll see that yes, even the women have to confess these things to their parents.  The Duggar girls discuss it in their own book.  

 

It's a completely different culture, a very different world.  Normal people just can't imagine something like this because it is so very different.  But if Anna and her parents didn't act exactly as she claims they did, it would be an indication that they weren't actually good Gothardites.