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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events


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21 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I was very surprised at the evidence exceptions that are made in cases of child abuse and/or CSAM.  I assumed that mention of Josh's uncharged molestation of his sisters might be allowed during sentencing if he was found guilty, but apparently there is accepted precedent that uncharged, decades-old crimes can be admitted in evidence during the trial since they show a pattern of conduct that is specific to child abusers/CSAM.  

That is a very unusual type of exception.   I would imagine it came about because of the very nature of these offenders and their crimes.

In Josh's case I don't know that the exception would necessarily be the reason the door is open for his past behavior to come in.   If Josh has in fact made admissions about his past behavior I believe it is fair game to come in under prior out of court admissions by a party opponent.

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3 hours ago, SMama said:

Let’s not forget JB has been picking at the scab of Deanna’s out of wedlock child for decades. I never understood how part of JB’s testimony is about how Deanna having a child out of wedlock caused her problems throughout her life. Did JB ever think about Deanna’s and Amy’s feelings? He used that worn trope on their last big trip to Australia and it is out there forever.
 

The Duggars were also condescending about Amy being different but they were Godly and accepted her. Amy was such a bad influence she could only visit her cousins under supervision. Very high and mighty of JB and M when they were enabling their pedophile son.

I would be full of resentment if I was Amy, probably made worst by biting her tongue for her grandma’s sake. Too bad JB didn’t spare his mother hearing how sinful her first born was. Yes, Amy is a fame whore, just like her uncle. JB has not only exploited his children for fame and money, but also his sister, and niece. None of those exploited were asked for their consent. 

I wasn't aware of JB doing this. If these are her issues, why not address them directly? Why keep throwing all these sideways darts on SM and looking like a fool? It can't be the alleged NDA, because if there is one, Amy has violated it repeatedly, whether directly or leaking info. She obviously gets some pleasure out of it, at her cousins' expense.

Amy should just spill the tea and then move on. Or Amy should just be quiet and move on. Or Amy should work it out privately and move on. There's a saying, "Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured". 

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4 hours ago, Tikichick said:

That is a very unusual type of exception.   I would imagine it came about because of the very nature of these offenders and their crimes.

Apparently so.

4 hours ago, Tikichick said:

In Josh's case I don't know that the exception would necessarily be the reason the door is open for his past behavior to come in.   If Josh has in fact made admissions about his past behavior I believe it is fair game to come in under prior out of court admissions by a party opponent.

I should have made in clear in my original post that it is not a given that the molestation will be brought up at trial, just that it was one of the in limine motions that the government filed this week and there is case law to back them up.  The judge still has to rule on it. 

Sometimes I feel like one of the redditors who signed themselves "DuggarSnark Law School, Class of 2021". 🤪  It's been an education. 

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2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I wasn't aware of JB doing this. If these are her issues, why not address them directly? Why keep throwing all these sideways darts on SM and looking like a fool? It can't be the alleged NDA, because if there is one, Amy has violated it repeatedly, whether directly or leaking info. She obviously gets some pleasure out of it, at her cousins' expense.

Amy should just spill the tea and then move on. Or Amy should just be quiet and move on. Or Amy should work it out privately and move on. There's a saying, "Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured". 

I think if we're looking for thoughtful, empathetic or moderately mature interpersonal behavior from either JB or Amy, we're looking in the wrong place. They're both needy, attention-greedy, self-centered, unthinking supremely-non-introspective silly people, seems to me. 

If we expect either one to thoughtfully try to be the bigger person or the better person or the more direct and honest person in their relationship -- or the person who can just say their piece once and for all and, if there's no productive response this time, just quietly walk away -- I fear that we look in vain. 

I expect more underhanded sniping and other stupid childish crap forever, from these two. 

 

 

Edited by Churchhoney
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10 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Meh.  Amy doesn't bug me.  Let her throw shade on JB and Smuggar all day.  At least someone in that family is disgusted and being honest about it.   I do think that Amy invited Ballz to AR during a live between KJ and Amy and her husband.  

So here is my take on KJ going to the trial.  It will be a fairly real time accounting of events of what went on, by some one who actually knows the players and nuisances of the situation.  The local reporters aren't going to know the players in this drama and they won't give us the tea that only true haters like us want to know.  If you take what she says with a grain of salt, at least you will get details that we won't otherwise know.   KJ has NO understanding of forensics or computers, but to be fair, Lawyer Emily girl doesn't either.  Granted at least Lawyer girl knows the law, but any follower of the Duggars will give us dirt that won't be in the transcripts or news reports.

That's my two bits.  Take it or leave it.  I just got a new puppy named Beau.

 

Puppy pictures please 🙏

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38 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Meh.  Amy doesn't bug me.  Let her throw shade on JB and Smuggar all day.  At least someone in that family is disgusted and being honest about it.   I do think that Amy invited Ballz to AR during a live between KJ and Amy and her husband.  

So here is my take on KJ going to the trial.  It will be a fairly real time accounting of events of what went on, by some one who actually knows the players and nuisances of the situation.  The local reporters aren't going to know the players in this drama and they won't give us the tea that only true haters like us want to know.  If you take what she says with a grain of salt, at least you will get details that we won't otherwise know.   KJ has NO understanding of forensics or computers, but to be fair, Lawyer Emily girl doesn't either.  Granted at least Lawyer girl knows the law, but any follower of the Duggars will give us dirt that won't be in the transcripts or news reports.

That's my two bits.  Take it or leave it.  I just got a new puppy named Beau.

 

Emily just went into the motions that were filed this week. No computer stuff involved, other than noting the Fed's motive for using the history of the molestations to show why the partition and TOR browser was set up to begin with.

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48 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I do like Emily (aka Emily Lawyer girl).  She knows her stuff, but anytime a lawyer starts talking about computers, I cringe.  I've never met one yet that understood anything they were arguing in court.  I would love for her to be there though.  Or any of our locals, cough.

 

beau.jpg

He looks just like Doorbell one of my dogs.

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46 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

@hathorlive, Beau is adorable!! Thanks for sharing the puppy love. 

Thank you.  After Jake died, our dog Elle Wood stopped eating.  The vet said she was grieving and anxious about being alone. We had the chance to pick this dog if we'd road trip 6 hours one way.  Which we did. 

9 minutes ago, CandyCaneTree said:

He looks just like Doorbell one of my dogs.

Love the name!!! He's a tri colored beagle with very little white, which is how I like them.  He's a spunky thing.

40 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Emily just went into the motions that were filed this week. No computer stuff involved, other than noting the Fed's motive for using the history of the molestations to show why the partition and TOR browser was set up to begin with.

That's really something that WOACB pointed out to me.  You can't really explain why he installed the Linux partition if you don't understand what Covenant Eyes is and you can't understand why he had that installed unless you know about all the past scandals.  

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13 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

That's really something that WOACB pointed out to me.  You can't really explain why he installed the Linux partition if you don't understand what Covenant Eyes is and you can't understand why he had that installed unless you know about all the past scandals.  

Right. It goes to motivation. Emily thinks the judge might grant the molestations motion on those grounds. In any case, she agrees with us that Smuggar is in deep doodoo. 

Edited by emmawoodhouse
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9 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Thank you.  After Jake died, our dog Elle Wood stopped eating.  The vet said she was grieving and anxious about being alone. We had the chance to pick this dog if we'd road trip 6 hours one way.  Which we did. 

Well, he really looks like a Beau!

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3 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Well, he really looks like a Beau!

He had his daycare santa pictures taken in a grey cardigan sweater and a red plaid bow tie. He does really rock the Beauregard name.

6 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Right. It goes to motivation. Emily thinks the judge might grant it on those grounds. In any case, she agrees with us that Smuggar is in deep doodoo. 

I only did a year in law school, but as a forensics person, this is the best case I've ever seen. I'm kind of jealous that I never had the cell phone geo location to back up my downloads before.  That's why I think he's in trouble. I was getting convictions based on them checking a sports score on Espn as they were downloading.  Him texting from the same location is gold.

I'm listening to her breakdown now.  She does a good job explaining things for those who have not listened to her.   

I've actually started using the iTunes phone backups in my cases.  It's funny that they think they are good because we can't break into their iPhone (which we can in many cases) but then we have a full backup of their phone on their PC. 

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4 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Right. It goes to motivation. Emily thinks the judge might grant it on those grounds. In any case, she agrees with us that Smuggar is in deep doodoo. 

TBH, I don't think the Ashley Madison/"porn addiction" stuff is going to make much of a difference to a jury either way.  

I do, however, fully agree with Emily Baker that Josh Duggar is in major, major trouble, even if all of the latest motions filed by the defense convince the court. 

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37 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

That's why I think he's in trouble. I was getting convictions based on them checking a sports score on Espn as they were downloading.  Him texting from the same location is gold.

 

And as a person who never went to law school but who's been in a ton of jury rooms -- This kind of thing -- It's the kind of thing that's just going to click with a lot of us the minute we hear it....And it doesn't fall apart as you think about it further.

It'll create an aha moment. And a good aha moment can really make you question your doubts because beside something like that, the doubts can start to seem fuzzy and maybe not that important. 

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1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

And as a person who never went to law school but who's been in a ton of jury rooms -- This kind of thing -- It's the kind of thing that's just going to click with a lot of us the minute we hear it....And it doesn't fall apart as you think about it further.

It'll create an aha moment. And a good aha moment can really make you question your doubts because beside something like that, the doubts can start to seem fuzzy and maybe not that important. 

Plus we now know there's no alibi for Smuggar. And the other people who could have been at the location when the CSA was downloaded all have rock solid alibis. One was in JAIL for crissakes!

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5 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Plus we now know there's no alibi for Smuggar. And the other people who could have been at the location when the CSA was downloaded all have rock solid alibis. One was in JAIL for crissakes!

Them proposing a guy who was in jail will never stop amusing me.  All this money for a supposed top quality lawyer and they pull such a bonehead move.  I love that it happened to Josh.

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6 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Them proposing a guy who was in jail will never stop amusing me.  All this money for a supposed top quality lawyer and they pull such a bonehead move.  I love that it happened to Josh.

Not to mention it was Travis Story who defended Williams. Oops! 😂

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19 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Them proposing a guy who was in jail will never stop amusing me.  All this money for a supposed top quality lawyer and they pull such a bonehead move.  I love that it happened to Josh.

It dawned on me that that is what happened at about 1 or 2 am after reading it hours before, and I can't stop laughing about it. It's one of the worst bits of lawyerings I've ever heard of. 

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30 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

And as a person who never went to law school but who's been in a ton of jury rooms -- This kind of thing -- It's the kind of thing that's just going to click with a lot of us the minute we hear it....And it doesn't fall apart as you think about it further.

It'll create an aha moment. And a good aha moment can really make you question your doubts because beside something like that, the doubts can start to seem fuzzy and maybe not that important. 

Exactly.  Hearing that he's abused young girls in the past.  That he's said he has a porn addiction.  That he had to have monitoring software on his computer.  And then that he created partition that the monitoring software doesn't work on.  It's going to make perfect sense and point to only one person who A) loves porn B) is interested in underage girls and C) was trying to evade detection.  It's not the former criminal or the guy hanging out on the lot.  

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2 hours ago, hathorlive said:

I do like Emily (aka Emily Lawyer girl).  She knows her stuff, but anytime a lawyer starts talking about computers, I cringe.  I've never met one yet that understood anything they were arguing in court.  I would love for her to be there though.  Or any of our locals, cough.

 

beau.jpg

Beau is a cutie! 

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My faith in jurors is weak. I won't believe Josh is going to be found guilty until the verdict is read in court. I do however, hope by this time next month we all receive an early holiday gift, hearing that he is found guilty.

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40 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Plus we now know there's no alibi for Smuggar. And the other people who could have been at the location when the CSA was downloaded all have rock solid alibis. One was in JAIL for crissakes!

One of the first things we do on a search site is to examine the router to see if it's got open or secured Wi-Fi.  That nips the "someone was using my internet" excuse in the bud.  Of course, when your IP is seen downloading CP and then an forensic examination shows you have CP on your computer, that defense falls apart.  I did have a case where I examined 12 devices from a house and not a single piece of CP was found.  Not a single search term or LNK file. He did have open Wi-Fi.  Who knows at that point.

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9 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

One of the first things we do on a search site is to examine the router to see if it's got open or secured Wi-Fi.  That nips the "someone was using my internet" excuse in the bud.  Of course, when your IP is seen downloading CP and then an forensic examination shows you have CP on your computer, that defense falls apart.  I did have a case where I examined 12 devices from a house and not a single piece of CP was found.  Not a single search term or LNK file. He did have open Wi-Fi.  Who knows at that point.

The only defense Smuggar has is that someone was using his DESKTOP computer since the materials were found on it. And that someone knew there was a partition and knew the password. 

Riiiight.

Edited by emmawoodhouse
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7 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I wasn't aware of JB doing this. If these are her issues, why not address them directly? Why keep throwing all these sideways darts on SM and looking like a fool? It can't be the alleged NDA, because if there is one, Amy has violated it repeatedly, whether directly or leaking info. She obviously gets some pleasure out of it, at her cousins' expense.

Amy should just spill the tea and then move on. Or Amy should just be quiet and move on. Or Amy should work it out privately and move on. There's a saying, "Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured". 

She has no tea, that's the problem. JB is a massive asshole, and the most damning thing she's said about him is that he didn't allow her around his kids alone. And while shitty, it's not exactly shocking information considering his beliefs and lifestyle. She likes the attention she gets from her shady implications, but she and her mom were clearly left out of the loop on everything, so those implications lead exactly nowhere. I'd believe salacious gossip from someone who attended one church service with the Duggars more than I believe anything Amy came up with. 

It's not even that I object to Amy disliking her uncle and talking shit about him (how could I?), it's that she keeps talking without every actually saying anything and then going all shocked pikachu face when some of her relatives are less than welcoming towards her. She's always tried to straddle both lanes and I find that pretty contemptible. As an outside observer, it can be entertaining (insert "I love mess!" gif here), but any Duggars keeping Amy at arm's lenght after all her shenanigans are being completely reasonable. 

 

9 hours ago, Tikichick said:

That is a very unusual type of exception.   I would imagine it came about because of the very nature of these offenders and their crimes.

In Josh's case I don't know that the exception would necessarily be the reason the door is open for his past behavior to come in.   If Josh has in fact made admissions about his past behavior I believe it is fair game to come in under prior out of court admissions by a party opponent.

I know this won't happen, but I have this image of the Megyn Kelly interview being shown in court as evidence against Josh, complete with JB dismissively describing Josh's escalation as "touching under the clothes, but only for a few seconds."   That the interview meant to exonerate Josh in the court of public opinion might help get him convicted is...*chef's kiss.*

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11 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

Does anyone know if the Megan Kelly interview might help the prosecution's argument? You can certainly argue it's public knowledge, even if it's old news and he was never charged, based on that interview.

I wonder this as well. At the start of this, I would have assumed that Josh's--to quote Ana--"teenaged...wrong choices" would be irrelevant to the court, but since it's apparently possible that it might be used against him, it seems to my (very much not a lawyer) mind that the interview is the most damning evidence. Josh's statement at the time was vague; I believe the official records have since been destroyed by order of the Arkansas courts(?); that interview has two of his victims and his parents describing Josh's actions. 

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21 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

Does anyone know if the Megan Kelly interview might help the prosecution's argument? You can certainly argue it's public knowledge, even if it's old news and he was never charged, based on that interview.

Oh, I think it helps the prosecution's argument. I mean, the person who just happened to be in the location where CSA was being downloaded just happens to be the same person who molested his sisters, something his sisters confirmed on national television - even as they downplayed what happened and the significance? Quite a coincidence, wouldn't you say?

But I don't know if the prosecution will be allowed to show that interview in court. The defense is arguing that this all happened when Josh was a juvenile, and he's now in his 30s, and that the trial needs to focus on the current allegations, not on what Josh may or may not have done in the past. I have no idea how the judge is going to rule on this.

 

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Since the Gothard World™ abhors women contributing to the Gross Domestic Product and the wage economy in general, how do the Duggar parents justify the adult girls making money off social media “influencing” ? That’s tax-deductable income, right? And s-s-s-some of those taxes go to l-l-l-l-ow income folks’ assistance! Anathema!
How do they make it right in their tiny brains?

Edited by Dianaofthehunt
Misspelling
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14 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

The only defense Smuggar has is that someone was using his DESKTOP computer since the materials were found on it. And that someone knew there was a partition and knew the password. 

Riiiight.

a recent article stated that they also found cp  on his home computer so josh is toast

 

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14 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Since the Gothard World™ abhors women contributing to the Gross Domestic Product and the wage economy in general, how do the Duggar parents justify the adult girls making money off social media “influencing” ? That’s tax-deductable income, right? And s-s-s-some of those taxes go to l-l-l-l-ow income folks’ assistance! Anathema!
How do they make it right in their tiny brains?

The Gothard Gang aren't really opposed to home businesses, especially if they're mom-related. I think they pretty much had to allow that loophole for practical reasons. A huge number of their devotees might have gone completely broke if women weren't helping out in husbands'  home/family businesses or running their own stay-at-home-mom-related ones. .....

And if their members didn't make any money, how could they have attended their events and bought their stuff? 😁 Priorities! 

Edited by Churchhoney
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Lawyer girl Emily explained the most confusing of the government's motions last night, the one about the trademark/logo of the HP computer.  It has nothing to do with where it's made, it's simply a rules of evidence thing where you have to prove that "the thing is the thing".  Her explanation was "Here is my phone, you can tell it's an iPhone from the logo.  Let's just agree that it's an iPhone and not make me call in someone from Apple to testify that it's an iPhone."  

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5 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

The computer should have an identification number like a car has a VIN.

IANAL, but the way I'm understanding it, it would be the equivalent of requiring someone from Ford testify that yes, that VIN means it's a Ford as opposed to both sides agreeing to that pre-trial.   Apparently it's a rules of evidence thing. 

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On 11/5/2021 at 8:25 AM, SMama said:

Do we know Amy asked WOACB to be there? I’m no Amy fan but I would take WOAC’s statement with a ton of salt.

I agree.   Amy might have said "if you need the info maybe you should go ." And of course WOAC took that to mean Amy wanted her there.

 

 

 

Edited by MsJamieDornan
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Quote

Them proposing a guy who was in jail will never stop amusing me.  All this money for a supposed top quality lawyer and they pull such a bonehead move.  I love that it happened to Josh.

Thats the best part, that tells us they have  nothing,,,big nothing. Goodbye Josh.

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7 hours ago, CandyCaneTree said:

Hey Smuggar how are you going to handle not being the golden boy in prison. 

Coming this fall from TLC - Cellblock 19!

19 Years and Counting

19 Hours A Day...Solitary

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When things slowed down on the Duggar threads in the past, I would half-heartedly joke to myself that we need a scandal. Twice it actually happened. I found myself thinking that today and stopped mid-thought, because the scandals get worse and worse. Not that there's anything much worse than CSA.

So I apologize in advance if my half thought has tempted the fates.

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22 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Okay, gotcha. I was over-complicating things. 

Actually, I think it is the legal system over-complicating things, although there are undoubtedly cases where this particular rule of evidence is very important.  

 

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If the Duggars are being silenced by anyone or anything; it's Josh's lawyers. I bet dollars to doughnuts that his legal staff ordered all of the Duggar family to zip their lips about this. The lawyers want and need to be in complete control over what is said; publicly or privately.

That statement Josh's parents released was written by Josh's lawyer(s)...not Jim Bob and/or Michelle. 

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2 hours ago, floridamom said:

If the Duggars are being silenced by anyone or anything; it's Josh's lawyers. I bet dollars to doughnuts that his legal staff ordered all of the Duggar family to zip their lips about this. The lawyers want and need to be in complete control over what is said; publicly or privately.

That statement Josh's parents released was written by Josh's lawyer(s)...not Jim Bob and/or Michelle. 

I believe its that and the fact they learned their lesson during the other scandals.

Average non-famous families have a hard time not feeling guilt, embarrassment or shame when their parents and/or siblings do something wrong. Overly enmeshed families have an even harder time which also gets reinforced by haters, trolls and the online rags, who are quick to run with that narrative and blame others by association.

It would also be fame/income suicide to openly support Josh.

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