S01.E07: Ordinary Death

[kieyra]

28 minutes ago, Dogberry said:

And while we're speaking of anvils, let's not forget the eczema.  There wasn't even any eczema in this episode, and we're still.  Getting.  Close-ups.  Of.  Stone's.  Shoes.

Forget the deer head.  I'm beginning to think the eczema committed the murder.

 

Now and then I wonder if Naz's allergies/asthma, Stone's allergies/asthma, and the cat-shaped anvil representing Naz are meant to clue us in that Stone only exists in Naz's head. 

It would explain why he never talks in court!

[The Hound Lives]

4 hours ago, BooBear said:

I would. Reasonable doubt for me is that he didn't have any blood on him. If indeed he killed her naked and then took a shower, why the long trail of disastrous mistakes that would suggest he was running away n a panic. Forgetting the keys and running the light.  Then most annoyingly: why? Where is the evidence that Naz has any capacity to stab a woman 22 times?  Again I would like to know what Naz planned to do in the future but to world this was a good kid without a criminal record.  There was no particular stress or in his life at the moment.  Add in the broken basement door and all that we don't know about the victim... for me there is a "reasonable doubt."

I also don't understand Helen's argument that Naz had premeditation by allowing Andrea to stay in his car. Yes premeditation to get laid. He went out that night dressed up to a party. Not with leather gloves, a mask, rope and duct tape or any evidence that he intended to kill anyone.  He also went all around New York and got himself on some cameras and was seen with many people. Not really what you would try to do if you wanted to go on a killing spree.

This is what is bugging me and has since episode 2. The lack of blood on him. 
And the scratches. Helen made a comment about if they could've been made during sex, to which the medical examiner (I believe) said he didn't know, that we would have to ask cupid. But if I was sitting in the jury, I would never look at those as defensive wounds. Wounds he received as she fought back. Defensive wounds would've been on his arms, his chest, his face. Maybe his back, too, but that wouldn't be the only place if she was trying to stop him. 
Add onto that, his clean clothes. Sure he could've been naked but why has no one mentioned if blood was located in the bathroom? As much as I love this show, those things are irritating and I hope we get some closure to them. 
And character witnesses! I mentioned this before and I understand the defense needs to focus on countering what the prosecution is presenting but they have a kid he went to school with, a former coach, but where are the people who know Naz as an ordinary kid? Yeah, someone who obviously is pretty fucking stupid to schilling prescription drugs but that doesn't mean there aren't solid attributes to present. What about someone he tutors? A counselor at college? The defense shouldn't rest on the they said/we said alone. They need to paint a more varied picture of Naz. He wasn't a shit son or brother. He seemed to have friends and was a likable guy.  

Just one random thing, since I saw it mentioned about, Andrea was stabbed 22 times in the chest/throat but found on her stomach. So that is weird, unless the killer turned her over. Maybe I missed something but I do think the wounds are to the chest. 

[LittleIggy]

I was so happy when the cat got to sleep on the bed and when Stone said "I don't want to get rid of the cat." :-)

Naz swallowing stuff straight out of that woman's  vagina. :-0~~

Edited August 23, 2016 by LittleIggy

[LoveLeigh]

I can't find this discussed, but why do they handle the evidence with bare hands? It should be sealed in plastic baggies.

And why would Chandra kiss Naz? it was so unprofessional and she is held to a high standard of ethics. 

How did a series so wonderful in episode 1 deteriorate to this hot mess? 

Edited August 23, 2016 by DakotaLavender

[Magic]

Bummer.  Some new answers come up in the trial, but hell, this is episode 7 of 8.  Looking back and now seeing sooooo much filler in some of the previous episodes, and for what, when some of these details would have been more interesting dribbling out over the course of those episodes not jammed into episode 7.

I cannot really care to the depth I thought I would have after the pilot.  Who is Naz? who is Andrea? Who knows the answers to these things?  You would think that we would especially know more about Andrea at this point given the supposed media coverage of the trial.  You would think the prosecutor AND the defense would paint a combating picture of them.  But not really especially not for Andrea.

I hate the shows or books where if you had known some obvious details, like what Andreas life was about, you would know the obvious murderer.  But since they don't show what should be obvious details, it turns out that is the only reason it is even a surprise who the murderer was.

And then the totally unnecessary things like the kiss.  I don't care what anyone wants to say, it is not reasonable on any level that has been shown in the film at all.

And the BIG things that seem like they should matter, like who the hell is killing women like this?  Andrea, Crazy Inmate's niece, and the other woman Box found out about.  Multiple women who are getting killed like this in or around Box's territory? 

You would think that would take out the stepfather as the prime subject unless there is that many people out there killing women like this.  Who knew?

All the time that the eczema got, and we know so little about anything else related to the murder like the obvious questions already mentioned by many.  Why?

Not because of any special skill of the filmmakers who have patched this half baked series together, leaving more emphasis on eczema than anything, it is still most troubling that Naz is living as if he is guilty.  How anyone is supposed to survive a place like Rikers is beyond me and if you don't have some group for protection you don't seem to have any hope of surviving.  So while the trial drags on, how you avoid being pulled in to crime after crime just to survive?  You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.  It would be ironic and it looks like it would be very possible, to be found innocent and to end up dead in prison because you didn't get out in time before the wrong person got pissed off enough at you.

[kieyra]

7 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I was so happy when the cat got to sleep on the bed and when Stone said "I don't want to get rid of the cat." :-)

More than that, I think he actually said "I don't want to get rid of my cat." :)

[Neurochick]

15 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I meant to point that out too. Wouldn't there have been discussions about whether or not cameras could be allowed in the courtroom? Wouldn't both the defense and the prosecution have agonized over that and whether it would work in their favor or against them? Why isn't there a media frenzy parked right outside the courthouse steps?

I don't think cameras are allowed in courtrooms in NYC anymore.

 

11 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

And from the article, it sounds like the real Rikers is actually worse than what we've seen.

It is.  The issue with Rikers is that many, many mentally ill people end up there and most of the CO's there aren't really trained in how to deal with mentally ill people, and remember, Rikers is for people who have been denied bail, or can't afford bail.

[lazylou]

On August 22, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Neurochick said:

I do like this show, but it feels like there are pieces missing, like it should have been 13 episodes or something. 

I love the cat.  I'm just not invested in her/his story.  However he/she does take direction well.

I agree.  So many important scenes just seem to have disappeared...  Are they all red herrings?  

Chandra is an inexperienced lawyer and she makes a lot of mistakes.  I think there might be an ineffective counsel appeal even without the kiss.  

[BooBear]

16 hours ago, stagmania said:

But you only know most of those things as an omniscient audience viewer. We have seen nothing to indicate that the jury knows Naz had no blood on him, or even that the defense framed the chain of events to show that he was confused and panicked. As for Naz's capacity for violence, we saw the prosecution try to establish random violence as a pattern in his life, and his attorney utterly fail to discredit those claims on cross. Given what we've seen, the jury doesn't appear to have enough to go on to establish reasonable doubt, and I'm not willing to assume that stuff was presented to them off camera when the editing suggested we were seeing all the "big" moments of the trial.

If they don't have the answers to these questions.. they have a reasonable doubt. And I am not sure the jury hasn't seen some of the stuff that we know... I presume they just move the trial along for time. It isn't the defense that needs to establish the doubt - it is the state that needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it.  If the jury gets half the story and the other half is just hanging out there unanswered all presumptions are in or should be in favor of the def't.   I said Naz's capacity to stab a woman 22 times. I don't see what a 10+ year old push down the stairs post 911 has to do with his capacity to stab a woman he just met 22 times which, it was alluded to, is something that usually doesn't happen unless there is some long standing animosity between people who know each other well.  I would point out that the  pushing incident wasn't even serious enough to get him charged and or, if it was, it was a juvenile offense... usually sealed because minors do not have the same capacity as adults.  As a juror I would find that irrelevant. Not like say O.J's long history of domestic violence on the same woman he was accused of killing.

[LittleIggy]

5 hours ago, kieyra said:

More than that, I think he actually said "I don't want to get rid of my cat." :)

I couldn't remember if he said "my," but if so more the better!

[Joimiaroxeu]

Ditto comments upthread, is it possible Box is feeling guilty because he knows they've built a bad case against Naz? But he's on his way off the job so whatever unless those golf clubs do a number on his conscience.

Meanwhile, in the previews it looked like Freddy might be trying to talk Naz into killing someone else. Why not, since he's already in prison and he's probably going to get convicted of murder anyway? It's horrible, especially if Naz truly didn't kill that girl. He's no innocent but before this mess he was a petty criminal at best. (Or minor league drug dealer at worst.) The justice system shouldn't be turning people into more hardened criminals.)

Trudie Styler is only 62. I hope her look in this show was just for the role because I would've pegged the character as in her 70s.

[clb1016]

I've had a feeling for the past few episodes that Naz will kill someone in Riker's at Freddy's command and thus will be a murder regardless of the outcome of the trial.  Pure speculation on my part.  I've remained spoiler-free throughout this series but after the finale I certainly want to learn about the original BBC series to see if Price/Zaillian hewed closely to the original material and to what degree they took artistic license.

[kay1864]

Anyone know how sale of cab licenses works in NYC?  Seems like if his 1/3 share was worth $250K, he could have easily gotten $150-200K for it from another potential cab driver, instead of having to settle for $75K.  It's not like he owed them any loyalty since they were essentially cutting him out of the partnership.

Or is it that the license can only be used for one cab, and therefore they could refuse a potential buyer use of their cab?

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Or is it that the license can only be used for one cab

You purchase the medallion which is attached to a single yellow cab.  Literally attached, to the hood.  It provides the ID number you'll see on the top of the cab between the off-duty lights.

(FWIW, I've heard they were worth a million dollars each but they're less valuable now with Uber around.)

[kay1864]

29 minutes ago, Drogo said:

You purchase the medallion which is attached to a single yellow cab.  Literally attached, to the hood.  It provides the ID number you'll see on the top of the cab between the off-duty lights.

 

(FWIW, I've heard they were worth a million dollars each but they're less valuable now with Uber around.)

So could a potential buyer force the other two to let him use the cab 1/3 of the time?  Or is "use of the cab" a separate thing? 

Also...if the medallion is attached to the original cab, how can they even use it, since it's still impounded?

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I've thought the actor playing Naz was good looking during the first few episodes but something about last night - the way he's bulked up, the shorter hair, the confidence.....I found him completely hot. I still don't think Chandra should have kissed him, though...and it still came out of nowhere.

All the talk of Naz now being an accessory to murder had me thinking about it....you know, I really can't feel too bad that the rapist got killed.... I would almost find it kind of redeeming on Freddy's part if I wasn't so sure he was just doing it because Petey's suicide messed up his business enterprise and that Naz wasn't just in on it because Freddy pretty much controls Naz.

[nb360]

16 hours ago, Neurochick said:

and remember, Rikers is for people who have been denied bail, or can't afford bail.

So why is Freddy in Rikers? Hasn't he been convicted?

[Uncle JUICE]

6 hours ago, nb360 said:

So why is Freddy in Rikers? Hasn't he been convicted?

Because he is awaiting trial for a murder he really didn't commit. He mentioned one of his boys "put another body on [him]" because he's already serving life, what's the difference, so that he could be closer to his family at Rikers, not stuck upstate. 

[The Hound Lives]

On 8/23/2016 at 2:37 AM, Magic said:

Not because of any special skill of the filmmakers who have patched this half baked series together, leaving more emphasis on eczema than anything, it is still most troubling that Naz is living as if he is guilty.  How anyone is supposed to survive a place like Rikers is beyond me and if you don't have some group for protection you don't seem to have any hope of surviving.  So while the trial drags on, how you avoid being pulled in to crime after crime just to survive?  You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.  It would be ironic and it looks like it would be very possible, to be found innocent and to end up dead in prison because you didn't get out in time before the wrong person got pissed off enough at you.

This is my fear for the end fate of Naz. 
We know he isn't some innocent 23 year-old. He's been involved in some shady shit and done questionable things but in the big picture, shit choices doesn't mean he has blood-lust. That pocket of time missing from his memory feels 100% genuine and if the twist is he is guilty and comes to that realization at the end, I'll call bollocks. I don't think his time at Riker's has brought out the "true Naz", the criminal simmering beneath the gentle veneer. I think he learned quick he had adapt and play the game. He is in over his head, with the drugs and conspiring with Freddy but I don't this behavior is who he is or wants to be. I do think he feels powerful (he is part of the power players now), maybe for the first time, but it's all a facade that will crumble. 
If Naz does remain at Rikers....speculation, so covered...

Spoiler

I thought for a while that he might die but I am starting to wonder if it is Naz who takes over. Meaning, he kills Freddy and becomes the "new" King of Queens (call back to the newspaper clipping on Freddy's wall). Of course to add more tragedy to it, this would come to pass right as Stone or Box find the true killer. 

[The Hound Lives]

12 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I've thought the actor playing Naz was good looking during the first few episodes but something about last night - the way he's bulked up, the shorter hair, the confidence.....I found him completely hot.

Aww yes. I found him hot in "Trishna" and he was just a skinny thing but I am digging the bulkier body. 

[meep.meep]

On 8/22/2016 at 3:35 PM, iggysaurus said:

Even the cat isn't particularly realistic, to me. ;)  I have 4 cats, and if any one of them was put into a room with the door shut and then left alone, they would be meowing and scratching constantly at the door to try to get out.  Cats like small spaces, but they dislike being confined against their will. I have a closet that I generally keep closed and don't let the cats in, and the first thing they do when I open that door is rush in there. But if I close it while they're in there, they immediately scratch to get out.  Each time I've gotten a new kitty, I've tried to confine it to the bathroom for 2 weeks like all the advice says to do, and end up letting it out into the rest of the apartment much earlier because the cat goes crazy being shut in that little room. Doesn't matter that they technically have everything they need in there -- they want to be with me and explore the rest of their new house. So, the way Stone's cat never makes a peep and seems relatively content with being locked up in a room by itself just doesn't ring true to me as a lifelong cat owner (#crazycatlady). :)

I am also a lifelong cat owner.  We had one go missing for several days.  Finally found him in the linen closet at the top of the stairs.  Never let out a peep and he must have been there 3 days at least.  They are mysterious creatures.

At least we got to find out why Katz took a picture of the drawer.   I assume the person who is following Stone has the real murder weapon knife.

[djsunyc]

15 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I've thought the actor playing Naz was good looking during the first few episodes but something about last night - the way he's bulked up, the shorter hair, the confidence.....I found him completely hot. I still don't think Chandra should have kissed him, though...and it still came out of nowhere.

All the talk of Naz now being an accessory to murder had me thinking about it....you know, I really can't feel too bad that the rapist got killed.... I would almost find it kind of redeeming on Freddy's part if I wasn't so sure he was just doing it because Petey's suicide messed up his business enterprise and that Naz wasn't just in on it because Freddy pretty much controls Naz.

what's interesting is outside of naz and the girl he potentially killed in the first episode, there hasn't been many "traditionally tv goodlooking/hot" people on this show.  the men out of jail are shlubs, freddy in jail looks like beat up.  and naz's mom and the DA are not portrayed in their best light.  the only female on the show that might be trying to keep herself together is chandra and she's not "tv hot" either.  trying to think of another show that's like that but can't think of one at the moment.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Drogo
Formatting.

[kieyra]

1 hour ago, djsunyc said:

what's interesting is outside of naz and the girl he potentially killed in the first episode, there hasn't been many "traditionally tv goodlooking/hot" people on this show.  the men out of jail are shlubs, freddy in jail looks like beat up.  and naz's mom and the DA are not portrayed in their best light.  the only female on the show that might be trying to keep herself together is chandra and she's not "tv hot" either.  trying to think of another show that's like that but can't think of one at the moment.

Most British crime shows. :)

(That's not a dig at British people, I love that they cast everyday-looking folks for many of their roles. I mean, Idris Elba notwithstanding.)

[AuntiePam]

I like the "not-hot" casting too.  Other shows -- especially cop/crime shows -- where everyone could be on People's magazine covers -- are way too unrealistic. 

Naz's hotness level did go up in this last episode -- maybe because we saw him smile as his Adderal friend was testifying.  It was like he was remembering the time before he lost all his innocence.

[boes]

14 hours ago, The Hound Lives said:

This is my fear for the end fate of Naz. 
We know he isn't some innocent 23 year-old. He's been involved in some shady shit and done questionable things but in the big picture, shit choices doesn't mean he has blood-lust. That pocket of time missing from his memory feels 100% genuine and if the twist is he is guilty and comes to that realization at the end, I'll call bollocks. I don't think his time at Riker's has brought out the "true Naz", the criminal simmering beneath the gentle veneer. I think he learned quick he had adapt and play the game. He is in over his head, with the drugs and conspiring with Freddy but I don't this behavior is who he is or wants to be. I do think he feels powerful (he is part of the power players now), maybe for the first time, but it's all a facade that will crumble. 
If Naz does remain at Rikers....speculation, so covered...

  Hide contents

I thought for a while that he might die but I am starting to wonder if it is Naz who takes over. Meaning, he kills Freddy and becomes the "new" King of Queens (call back to the newspaper clipping on Freddy's wall). Of course to add more tragedy to it, this would come to pass right as Stone or Box find the true killer. 

Great analysis.

[tennisgurl]

I do like that this show has mostly "normal" people on it. Not that the characters are all unattractive or anything, but they dont look all pretty and put together, and most everyone looks like a person you would actually meet on the street. Even Naz and Andrea, who are probably the most "traditionally" hot, look/looked pretty realistic as far as hotness goes. 

I pretty much agree with what people here have said. The courtroom stuff is the least interesting part of this story, and I kind of roll my eyes at the many revelations of Nazs past. The courtroom stuff is pretty generic stuff we have all seen on a million other "gritty" crime shows, and I think I liked the idea of Naz as a basically normal guy, who might have a few skeletons in his closet like popping some drugs, getting thrown into a world of crime, when he himself has been a law abiding guy his whole life. But I guess they want to make us suspect that Naz did do it? But, again, the crime is not what makes this show interesting. 

To me, this show shines when it involves Nazs family and their community dealing with this crime accusation and how it affects them all, and its look into the American legal system, which is run by a bunch of overworked every day people working a 9-5, where a typical day in the office to them is a life changing tragedy to the people they work with. When it focuses on these things, I really like this show. I like the ascetics, and the day to day realism of life in NYC, and how something like this affects everyday people. Its just that they have gotten away from that, and that sucks.  

[KN2Blue]

On August 22, 2016 at 10:20 PM, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I have spent some time with Pakistani friends & their families and my understanding is that Pakistanis and Indians - particularly Hindu Indians as opposed to Muslim Indians - generally don't like each other very much due to the long-standing violence and tensions between the two countries (and two religious groups) due in part to questions of who would rule India after independence from Britian, the partition at independence, and continuing tensions over Kashmir. Last episode when Chandra was in the bar with Stone and he said something like he didn't think she drank, Chandra said "that's Muslims." That made me think that she's either Hindu/from a Hindu family (although it's possible I guess she's another religion or converted or no religion, etc). Naz said something about Chandra not knowing what it was like for him after 9/11, which made me think he knows she's isn't Muslim. Chandra corrected him, which made think that Chandra had experienced similar things because other Americans thought she "looked" like she could be Mulsim, so they treated her badly as well- it made me think of the Sikhs who were targeted in the U.S. because some dumb American assumed they were Muslim (not that being Muslim would be a reason to attack them, but many Americans who don't know a lot about cultural geography often think in simplistic terms - Hispanics  = Mexican; brown skin & from the Middle East or South Central Asia =  Muslim, etc).

I just don't buy that most Pakistanis of Naz's parents' generation would like Chandra so very much (as Naz's mom did when she met her) because of the geopolitical history between India and Pakistan since she's Indian and probably not a Muslim Indian. I guess I suppose it's possible that Chandra and Naz's generation may not care & may develop a romance (even if the plot/character development didn't seem to make sense as it is shown here....that kids came out of nowhere to me, at least on Chandra's part), but I think Naz's parents probably wouldn't have been as excited about Chandra as they initially were. It would have made more sense to me for the writers to just have written Chandra as a secular Pakistani Muslim (who happens to drink as many "cultural Muslims"/secular Muslims I know do) or as a secular Indian Muslim rather than a non-Muslim Indian. 

I don't mean to offend anyone with this post and realize this is a broad generalization. It just hasn't rang true with my experiences with Pakistani friends' parents/families and what I know about geopolitics of the region.

I'm going to disagree with you here not because your premise is wrong. Yes it's true that Hindus and Muslims throughout the years have had some major conflict but it doesn't mean that this is the reality in every situation. In fact I do commend the show for avoiding the generalization because while en masse there might be conflict, it doesn't mean that every single individual feels strongly about the conflict. It's simplistic writing in my opinion to always resort to the common-place experience. One of my favorite Ted talks is the one by Ngozi Chimamanda Adichie where she talks about the dangers of a single story. We don't get a lot of stories in the media about South Asians and it's refreshing that the show did not just go there. Perhaps I'm biased slightly but I do work with people from Pakistan/India- first generation Americans in their 40s (I'm not South Asian) and they get along extremely well and are friends outside the workplace so my experience is obviously different from yours. 

PS FWIW there is probably more solidarity as you move away from the geopolitical area as the two groups probably share similar cultures so it also does ring true to me that there isn't necessarily any animus between the two groups here in the US.

[scrb]

So the diaspora Hindus and Pakistanis don't harbor ill feelings?  I believe a lot of nationalistic and tribal hatreds are stirred up there.

I just remember in Bend it like Beckham, one of the girls didn't want to be mistaken for a "Paki."

[KN2Blue]

My point isn't that they don't harbor ill feelings but that it isn't the only story that can and should be told about Hindus/Pakistanis. There is obviously a lot more complexity than that so it's worthwhile in my opinion not to only focus on that aspect. Not to go off topic but this is why often communities of color decry the lack of representation in the writers' room because when people are not familiar with the cultures that they try to write about they simply draw on the most commonly-held stereotypes. 

[numbnut]

1 hour ago, KN2Blue said:

My point isn't that they don't harbor ill feelings but that it isn't the only story that can and should be told about Hindus/Pakistanis. There is obviously a lot more complexity than that so it's worthwhile in my opinion not to only focus on that aspect. Not to go off topic but this is why often communities of color decry the lack of representation in the writers' room because when people are not familiar with the cultures that they try to write about they simply draw on the most commonly-held stereotypes.

I loathe lazy writing. Lazy/hack writers will rely on stereotypes, and lazy hacks come from all walks of life. A worthwhile writer will do research. POC can be marginalized as writers when the industry only expects them to write stories about cultural identity. A solid writer should be able to tackle any topic.

Edited August 28, 2016 by numbnut

[Happytobehere]

On August 22, 2016 at 1:03 AM, Jodithgrace said:

And Naz seems determined to turn himself in the the convictiest convict who ever served time. There are lifers who don't have his thousand yard stare. The teacher who described Naz after he hurt those kids said he had a total lack of affect. He is showing the same thing here. Since the beginning..has he even cried? Except for the moment in the place station when he yelled, "I didn't do it!" has he shown any emotion at all? He has developed a cold as ice shell, and he developed it immediately. Like it is part of who he really is. 

I think that is the point, to have people examine how and why we perceive people the way we do.  At first glance, we saw Naz as a helpful, college tutor from hard-working, religious immigrant family, who clearly didn't go out with the intention of looking for the trouble that found him and then foolishly did everything that made him look worse = Naz is a good kid.  However, we actually knew nothing about Naz other than the facade.  I remember poster saying a few episodes back that they didn't like the retcons to Naz's character, as if we actually knew anything about Naz.  It goes to show viewer perspective.  The show gave us some surface information and our minds, world-views, perspectives and presuppositions filled in the rest, and we internalized it and made these opinions true.

On August 21, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Superpole2000 said:

And why the hell is the courtroom so dark? Are they trying to put the judge and jury to sleep in there? The lawyers' faces are in shadows!

I was in many a courtroom while interning for the DA in NY, and the vast majority of the courtrooms look just like that, poor lighting, colors that don't add to a feeling of lightness in the room, so that part is accurate.

[ganesh]

I don't think there's any retcon to Naz either. But I'm not seeing a couple of incidents in junior high and selling some pills at exam time to be a stepping stone to what he's become in jail though. Unless the finale is going to show Naz being a total criminal all this time, which then I would call bs on. 

[Gobi]

Some of what he did in jail can be justified as necessary for survival. Others: the tats, shaving his head, doing drugs, were things no one asked him to do and weren't necessary.

[The Hound Lives]

27 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I don't think there's any retcon to Naz either. But I'm not seeing a couple of incidents in junior high and selling some pills at exam time to be a stepping stone to what he's become in jail though. Unless the finale is going to show Naz being a total criminal all this time, which then I would call bs on. 

This is why I have loved this series. Look at the progression - we went from "Who killed Andrea?" to "What the fuck is this eczema shit all about?" to "Save the cat" to "Is Naz a Freddy project" to "Naz really isn't such a good kid" and so on. We are all scratching our collective heads wondering what the hell any of this has to do with anything. One person wants more focus on the evidence, another on Rikers life, another on the family. I am hopeful that the bits and pieces of all of it together paint the picture we all wanted to see all along. 

I echo your thought that Naz hasn't been a vacant criminal since the beginning and I really hope that isn't the "twist" they are leading up to. The entire angle of the prosecution is to paint Naz as someone predetermined to end up committing murder but everything they have shown me doesn't paint him in that light at all. His lack of emotion now and in the past (the coach who said he had no reaction to his high school actions), I think stem from his belief that who he is, son of Muslim immigrants, means his guilt is already been established. Remembering the interaction outside Andrea's place with Trevor and Dwayne. Trevor called him a terrorist and other derogatory names associated with his ethnic makeup. Naz came back at him, "what did you say?" and not to start a fight. He is used to it. He didn't even seem pissed, it was just another reminder that this is how he is a viewed. He may have told Andrea that it hasn't happened before, to deflect that it doesn't bother him, but this is how he perceives people view him. So I think his lack of emotion, in high school and in the courtroom, is a reflection of that.  

[Gobi]

That supports what I could see as the ending of the show. We may or may not find out who killed Andrea. The trial ends, the jury comes back and the sound fades without the audience hearing the verdict as the camera focuses on Naz. It ends with a tight close-up of his face, with no hint of a reaction to the verdict. For him, it no longer matters whether he's found guilty or innocent.

[The Hound Lives]

3 minutes ago, Gobi said:

That supports what I could see as the ending of the show. We may or may not find out who killed Andrea. The trial ends, the jury comes back and the sound fades without the audience hearing the verdict as the camera focuses on Naz. It ends with a tight close-up of his face, with no hint of a reaction to the verdict. For him, it no longer matters whether he's found guilty or innocent.

It would be brutal as hell but I could see this. 

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Gobi said:

Some of what he did in jail can be justified as necessary for survival. Others: the tats, shaving his head, doing drugs, were things no one asked him to do and weren't necessary.

That also isn't an admission of guilt either. He could say he felt forced to get the tattoo for protection. 

1 hour ago, The Hound Lives said:

We are all scratching our collective heads wondering what the hell any of this has to do with anything. One person wants more focus on the evidence, another on Rikers life, another on the family. I am hopeful that the bits and pieces of all of it together paint the picture we all wanted to see all along. 

There's only 90 minutes left to do that though. I don't think the show really understood what the narrative direction was. There's a lot that unravels when only held up to mild scrutiny. 

[evilmindatwork]

On August 26, 2016 at 6:50 PM, scrb said:

So the diaspora Hindus and Pakistanis don't harbor ill feelings?  I believe a lot of nationalistic and tribal hatreds are stirred up there.

I just remember in Bend it like Beckham, one of the girls didn't want to be mistaken for a "Paki."

Paki is basically the equivalent of the N word in the UK for all South Asians (Bangladesh, India, Pakistan) 

I am first generation American but my parents are Bengali Indian Muslims and while I wouldn't say there isn't some differences between them and Hindus in general , they have a lot of Hindu friends because they are usually happy to be around South Asians because of similar language, food and cultural references. 

On August 27, 2016 at 9:15 PM, KN2Blue said:

My point isn't that they don't harbor ill feelings but that it isn't the only story that can and should be told about Hindus/Pakistanis. There is obviously a lot more complexity than that so it's worthwhile in my opinion not to only focus on that aspect. Not to go off topic but this is why often communities of color decry the lack of representation in the writers' room because when people are not familiar with the cultures that they try to write about they simply draw on the most commonly-held stereotypes. 

A lot of solidarity. I'm first generation, grew up in the Bay Area, and grew up with other mostly Indian, Pakistani, and Bengali friends-- it's just nice to know people who watch the movies you grew up watching, with similarly crazy parents that you roll your eyes at. 

I think his parents would have been happy to have someone who could communicate in their language, but also communicate in the subtle code of their culture.

 

eta: not that people don't care about that stuff. When my grandparents, while they were alive, met someone, watched a concert/ movie the first thing they'd do was learn their names to figure out whether they were Hindu/Muslim/ Sikh, they just always wanted to know 

Edited August 31, 2016 by evilmindatwork