Pool and Open Water Swimming: Do Not Swallow the Water

[Daisy]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

I guess my previous explanation of this failed to clarify it, and for that I apologize. I'm going to try again -- it's not even about mathematics (that makes it sound complex and it's not), just counting.

When everyone has a different times in a race, you see the names listed after their placing numbers like this:

1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8

(As displayed onscreen, those would be in a vertical column but I'm trying to save space.) If the first two have the same time, then the display is:

1  1  3  4  5  6  7  8

The first two have the same rank, both first place ("gold"). But the next person in line has two people ahead of her., so she's in third place ("bronze"). Nobody was in second place in this race, because the first two were equal.

There was a race last night (it may have been this same one) that actually had two ties, so the scores were listed on the same principle

1  1  3  4  4  6  7  8

If there were ever to be a triple dead heat for first place, three swimmers with exactly the same time (which I doubt has ever happened), then they would award 3 gold medals -- and no others (because the top three finishers were all medaled).

I like it. (Speaking as a music professor, which may make my opinion suspect. :) ) It's bright, in tempo for a change (so many modern renditions are overwrought and overdone), and blessedly free of bombast. This is the way I would like to hear it all the time.

Thank you so much :) (that makes it very much cleaner for me - i suffer from dyscalulia so sometimes I can't understand numbers or even explanations. I totally get it now).  

I like the new anthem composition myself. 

[A.Ham]

Unpopular opinion alert--I personally adore Phelps, and I am enjoying watching him continuing to amaze. The man is just superhuman. I actually follow him on social media and to me he comes across as a pretty chill dude outside of competition. I'm not going to judge him for his earlier indiscretions because he seems to have learned from them and turned things around with regards to the destructive behaviors, which is all I can ask for.

And once again, I am an outlier in that I also do not mind seeing his family in the stands for a few seconds, including the adorable little boomer.  

[Aliconehead]

I love watching the heats with the swimmers from the odd countries that are not competitive in swimming, like Ethiopia.  They are just happy to be there and beat their best times.  Just makes me happy for some reason

[SusieQ]

A.Ham you are not alone. I love watching Michael swim. He is incredible! And I have no problem with a quick scan to his family. 

But I totally agree with all the NBC hate. They need to cool it all the hype. His achievements don't need it. They stand on their own.

[Rinaldo]

I know not everyone has access to the online streaming of events, but for those who do, it makes an enormous difference when watching swimming to one's attitude about Phelps, I think. With the Australian & New Zealand commentators, there's no overload of Phelps info, but they sure do admire his achievements. And so do I. Seeing him last night get a body length ahead of the others in a matter of seconds was just unreal. Some athletes have physical attributes that give them an advantage in certain sports. Others achieve excellence by hard work in study and training. To see someone with both is a rare experience.

[blackwing]

So amidst all of the "Simone Manuel is the first black female to win a swimming medal" discussion (yay Simone!), I learned that Anthony Ervin is actually part-black (not sure if it's 1/2 or 1/4).  He looks almost entirely white, and I guess the issue is that he never identified or thought of himself as black.  It came as quite a surprise to him when a commentator asked him at the 2000 Olympics what it felt like to be the first black swimmer ever to win a gold medal.

If Ervin is considered the first black swimmer to win a medal, how come there was so much made about Cullen Jones as a groundbreaker for black swimmers when he was active?

[Danny Franks]

Whenever I hear people eulogising about Phelps and all his medals, I can't help but think of Jack Whitehall's (very) tongue-in-cheek question to Sir Steve Redgrave in the Samsung School of Rio adverts: "Honest answer, would you swap your golds for a proper medal? Like, say, a bronze in the 100 meters?"

Of course Phelps deserves all the plaudits for winning so many, but he is blessed by the fact he competes in a sport where there are simply more medals to be won. Other athletes who have worked every bit as hard as him will get one chance to compete in one event. The amount of praise he gets seems to diminish the achievements of others, and I think that's incredibly unfair.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Danny Franks

[DollEyes]

 As much as I expected the Campbell sisters to win the Gold & Silver, that's how thrilled I was to see that Simone Manuel not only tied for Gold, she made history in the process. I didn't cry as much as Simone did during her Medal ceremony, but I came close. 

[legaleagle53]

Evidently, Boomer Phelps doesn't take after his daddy in the looks department:

Edited August 13, 2016 by legaleagle53

[jjj]

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I guess my previous explanation of this failed to clarify it, and for that I apologize. I'm going to try again -- it's not even about mathematics (that makes it sound complex and it's not), just counting.

When everyone has a different time in a race, you see the names listed after their placing numbers like this:
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8
(As displayed onscreen, those would be in a vertical column but I'm trying to save space.) If the first two have the same time, then the display is:
1  1  3  4  5  6  7  8

 

The one other twist to this is that it is possible to have *four* medals awarded for an event, if there is a tie for third place, so in your numbering system, it would be:  1 2 3 3 5 6 7 8  This had happened seven times up until this Olympics.  And in looking for the numbers, I found that at the 2014 Winter Games, they had 46 (46!) extra gold medals ready to hand out in case of ties.  Given the market value for the medals, I assume they are melted down if not awarded, as each Games has its own medal design.  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-happens-when-theres-tie-olympics-180949754/?no-ist

Completely agree about the match of physique and ability in the case of Phelps.  And one thing (of so many) that makes him stand out is that no one has been able to compete and *win* in so many events in a single Olympics and over five Olympics until now.   Heard a great quote from Lochte on the CBC coverage -- and of course Lochte has more medals than Mark Spitz, whose record stood for so many years.  Said Lockte:  "If it were not for Michael Phelps, *I* would be the Michael Phelps" (because of all the Lochte medals). 

[Rinaldo]

I always find the 1500m prelims interesting -- not gripping moment-to-moment (I catch up on reading or news while they happen, as 30 lengths of the pool take a while), but the ebb and flow of who's leading, what the various paces are, and who just kind of poops out and accepts they're not going to be in the running this time (as Sun Yang did in the heat I just watched).

[selkie]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

So amidst all of the "Simone Manuel is the first black female to win a swimming medal" discussion (yay Simone!), I learned that Anthony Ervin is actually part-black (not sure if it's 1/2 or 1/4).  He looks almost entirely white, and I guess the issue is that he never identified or thought of himself as black.  It came as quite a surprise to him when a commentator asked him at the 2000 Olympics what it felt like to be the first black swimmer ever to win a gold medal.

If Ervin is considered the first black swimmer to win a medal, how come there was so much made about Cullen Jones as a groundbreaker for black swimmers when he was active?

Ervin considers himself to be a mixed race dude who just happens to have some black African genes, while Cullen definitely considers himelf to be a black guy, and ended up doing a whole bunch of minority outreach for USAS while he was at his competition peak.

First black swimmer to win an Olympic medal- Enith Brigitha in 1976 (Netherlands-Curacao) .  If the revelations about East German doping had come within what is now the 'statute of limitations' for medal reallocation, her two bronzes would have been elevated to gold and silver

First back guy to win an Olympic swimming gold- Anthony Nesty in his upset 100 fly win back in the 80s. But he represented Suriname so 'flies' a bit under the memory radar

2000- Ervin's gold

2004- Malia Mattela (50 free for France) and Maritza Correia (4x100 FR for USA get minor medals)

2008- Cullen Jones takes gold in 4x100 FR

2012- Cullen gets a couple of silvers, Lia Neal (black-Asian) gets a silver in the 4x100 FR

I'm probably missing a few highlights and there are some countries that don't put such an emphasis on race. Brazil's Etiene Medeiros, a world champion in the 50M backstroke looks black but if you ask her what she is, she just says she's Brazilian.

Edited August 12, 2016 by selkie

[Rinaldo]

29 minutes ago, jjj said:

The one other twist to this is that it is possible to have *four* medals awarded for an event, if there is a tie for third place, so in your numbering system, it would be:  1 2 3 3 5 6 7 8  This had happened seven times up until this Olympics. 

Yes, I thought of mentioning that but I figured I'd gone on long enough already. Also, some sports routinely award two bronzes (Judo, for sure), when the structure of competition as a bracket of one-on-one eliminations makes it possible to define only a top four, with a final "battle" between the top two. So it's always 1 2 3 3.

[A.Ham]

2 hours ago, SusieQ said:

But I totally agree with all the NBC hate. They need to cool it all the hype. His achievements don't need it. They stand on their own.

They must like being hated on, because they are rather obnoxious in their coverage; then again, it seems to be their modus operandi.

[Sew Sumi]

16 hours ago, briochetwist said:

Why no sympathy? It was legal to take until January 2016 and because it doesn't clear immediately, people were testing positive for it even though they'd most likely stopped using it when they were supposed to.  I think the general public is pretty naive about what supplements a lot of these athletes take. Again, it was legal until January of this year.

You are only painting half the story. WADA had meldonium on their watch list for a couple of years. It's not as if people didn't see this coming. No other countries used the stuff, and apparently Maria Sharapova was getting the shit shipped to her in Florida. So... yeah. 

I grew up in the steroids era. No one gets a pass from me. #cheatersneverwin

[Kromm]

Ryan Lochte to Michael Phelps: 'I'll see you in Tokyo'

[briochetwist]

30 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

You are only painting half the story. WADA had meldonium on their watch list for a couple of years. It's not as if people didn't see this coming. No other countries used the stuff, and apparently Maria Sharapova was getting the shit shipped to her in Florida. So... yeah. 

I grew up in the steroids era. No one gets a pass from me. #cheatersneverwin

How am I only painting half the story? So.... yeah what? It was legal, then it wasn't. No other countries used the stuff? From what I've read it was common in Europe. Why would Maria Sharapova need it shipped, It's available in the US.

https://www.awakebrain.com/mildronate.html

[proserpina65]

I freely confess to only following swimming during the Olympics, so maybe Simone Manuel has been successful at meets prior to Rio and her co-winning her event is not really a shock.  And I do hate to be cynical.  But it's a sport with a history of doping, and well, I am a cynic, so anyone who seems to come from out of nowhere makes me cast a suspicious eye at them.  I hope I'm wrong, because I like seeing new faces and not the same old ones (particularly when it isn't Michael Phelps).  I really do want her to be swimming clean.  So please, those of you who follow the sport closely, please tell me I'm just a grumpy old cynic.

[Kromm]

15 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I freely confess to only following swimming during the Olympics, so maybe Simone Manuel has been successful at meets prior to Rio and her co-winning her event is not really a shock.  And I do hate to be cynical.  But it's a sport with a history of doping, and well, I am a cynic, so anyone who seems to come from out of nowhere makes me cast a suspicious eye at them.  I hope I'm wrong, because I like seeing new faces and not the same old ones (particularly when it isn't Michael Phelps).  I really do want her to be swimming clean.  So please, those of you who follow the sport closely, please tell me I'm just a grumpy old cynic.

Google says she won two NCAA championships last year (50 and 100 freestyle--that second being the same event she won this gold for).  So unless we believe she's gotten away with doping for a year and a half now, that would support her being pretty talented. 

Also the Stanford swim program (where she won it off) is pretty much the best in the world. Katie Ledecky is going to Stanford after this Olympics.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Kromm

[proserpina65]

Thanks for the info, Kromm.  Like I said, I've become very cynical about out-of-nowhere winners, since I remember the 'good' old days of the East German swimmers.  And I've been burned before by wanting someone to be clean (Michelle Smith), so it's hard for me just believe in what looks like a too good to be true performance.  But it does look like Simone Manuel has some backup for this swim, so I'll be glad to be a believer.  And, as I said, at least it's someone new.

[Ohwell]

26 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I freely confess to only following swimming during the Olympics, so maybe Simone Manuel has been successful at meets prior to Rio and her co-winning her event is not really a shock.  And I do hate to be cynical.  But it's a sport with a history of doping, and well, I am a cynic, so anyone who seems to come from out of nowhere makes me cast a suspicious eye at them.  I hope I'm wrong, because I like seeing new faces and not the same old ones (particularly when it isn't Michael Phelps).  I really do want her to be swimming clean.  So please, those of you who follow the sport closely, please tell me I'm just a grumpy old cynic.

Has anyone suggested that Katie Ledecky has been doping?  Granted, I hadn't heard about Simone before the Olympic trials last month because I usually don't follow swimming, but I find it odd that Simone Manuel is now being questioned. because she won gold.   The impression I got from the trials was that she was pretty well known in the swimming world and it wouldn't have been a surprise for her to medal.   So she didn't "come out of nowhere" and, yes, some of us black people actually do swim.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Ohwell

[BitterApple]

Boomer is adorable. Let's pray he continues to take after Mom in the looks department. 

I don't think Simone is doping. If she's swimming for Stanford, she's the real deal. I think the coverage has been so overwhelmingly focused on the male swimmers and Katie Ledecky, that anyone else is automatically perceived as an "unknown" to the general audience. If anyone is on PED's it's that Hungarian girl. It's incredibly rare to have such massive improvement in your mid-20s like that. If she came up dirty, I wouldn't be surprised. 

[Dots And Stripes]

NBC did sound like Simone was an underdog in that race. They were focused on the Australian sisters. Based on what I've learned from listening to Rowdy's commentary, it sounds like the shorter distances can be very prone to upsets as it is. Simone's reaction also gives away that she wasn't the favorite to win. Her face when she saw that she had won was pure joy. 

Underdogs can win without cheating.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Dots And Stripes

[Miss Slay]

50 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I freely confess to only following swimming during the Olympics, so maybe Simone Manuel has been successful at meets prior to Rio and her co-winning her event is not really a shock.  And I do hate to be cynical.  But it's a sport with a history of doping, and well, I am a cynic, so anyone who seems to come from out of nowhere makes me cast a suspicious eye at them.  I hope I'm wrong, because I like seeing new faces and not the same old ones (particularly when it isn't Michael Phelps).  I really do want her to be swimming clean.  So please, those of you who follow the sport closely, please tell me I'm just a grumpy old cynic.

 

So a black woman couldn't possibly win a swimming race. She must be doping. *sigh*

[Kromm]

To be fair to proserpina65, I do think it would be true to say that Manuel wasn't expected to win. She was an NCAA champ in these very distances, which is VERY credible, but that's not automatically the same thing as being a world champ. It should have been more of a hint that she swam for the world's best swimming program, Stanford, where Ledecky herself is going to wind up now, but NBC didn't really take the time to play that up.

In summary, Manual is a believable credible winner, but wasn't expected.  At least according to what WE saw.

I do think the problem here is extending the doping paranoia to a situation where it hasn't really been an issue. The NCAA monitors this stuff just as vigilantly as the IOC I bet.  For all that it sounds jingoistic... this isn't generally an American problem (at least for these kinds of sports). It's one from places like Russia and China.  Ah yes, China...

BBC News: China's Chen Xinyi has become the first swimmer to fail a doping test at the Rio Olympics.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Kromm

[proserpina65]

49 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Has anyone suggested that Katie Ledecky has been doping?  Granted, I hadn't heard about Simone before the Olympic trials last month because I usually don't follow swimming, but I find it odd that Simone Manuel is now being questioned. because she won gold.   The impression I got from the trials was that she was pretty well known in the swimming world and it wouldn't have been a surprise for her to medal.   So she didn't "come out of nowhere" and, yes, some of us black people actually do swim.

For someone like me who only follows the sport once every four years, Simone Manuel did indeed seem like someone who came from out of nowhere.  I’d been hearing about Katie Ledecky (since you mentioned her specifically) for some time now because she’s from Maryland and the local news talks about her performances in national and international meets.  And most of the other new-to-me swimmers did at least get some airtime prior to their finals, but Ms. Manuel didn’t.  At least not that I heard, but I work during the day and haven’t been able to see all the heats, and I’ve also started to turn off the sound for the swimming because the commentators are driving me up the wall.  So Ms. Manuel was someone I’ve never heard of before her swim in the final, and since, like I said, I’ve been burned before, I was skeptical.  Those of you who’ve kindly given me more information about her past performances have allowed me to accept that my initial skepticism was misplaced, as she has had a lot of success nationally and is obviously a talented swimmer.

For what it’s worth, I’ve cast a bit of a side-eye at Katinka Hossou’s seemingly drastic improvement between Olympics as well, as I’ve also only seen her in London and Rio.

As for your final point, yes, I know black people swim, as I am old enough to have cheered for Anthony Nesty during his Olympics, and I’ve also seen Cullen Jones swim.  I had just never heard of Simone Manuel.  My comment had nothing to do with her race and everything to do with her being unfamiliar to me.

17 minutes ago, Miss Slay said:

 

So a black woman couldn't possibly win a swimming race. She must be doping. *sigh*

I very clearly did not say that.

[Kromm]

1 minute ago, proserpina65 said:

As for your final point, yes, I know black people swim, as I am old enough to have cheered for Anthony Nesty during his Olympics, and I’ve also seen Cullen Jones swim.

For me the important issue here is that in fact... a lot of black people DON'T swim.  There are real economic and historical reasons for it (at least in America). Jones, and now Manuel, are part of what is bound to be a fairly long road to changing that (although some of the economic reasons for it are unsolvable simply because there are now figureheads for a movement to change it). 

It is pretty amusing (and yet in a way sad) that a discussion we tend to have over in the Survivor topics is manifesting here!  

I seem to recall seeing in the past even some stupid truly racist biological bullshit justifications for the "black people can't swim" stuff, but scorning that is probably beyond our discussion scope here.

[Thumper]

Re: Phelps and all his medals.  I think most people realize he/swimmers can race in many events in one Olympics.    Isn't this his 4th Olympics?  So the fact that he has medaled in FOUR Olympics is amazing and certainly worthy of acclaim IMO.  I don't know how these athletes keep the motivation to continue for another 4 years!  His accomplishments are huge -- as are those who, say, in track and field, win one medal.  (I watched the women's 10,000 today and couldn't imagine running that!)

[selkie]

Manuel and Abby Wentzel went back and forth in their teenage years vying for the title of 'America's next great sprint freestyle prospect' and Manuel was a world championships finalist last year before taking a redshirt year for Stanford and focusing on long course training for the Olympics.  Her time is not seen as suspect by those who have been following her and Abby for a while- it's finally living up to the hype.

And then the Campbell sisters just swam bizarrely awful- Bronte's been hurt off and on since WCs last summer, but for Cate, who has gone a 52 or better 25 times in her career to go a 53 while tapered is a choke on an epic level. At least Susie O'Neil actually swam well when she was upset by Misty Hyman in Sydney. Sjorstrom was just a hair slower than she's capable, and the door was open for an upset by  pair of athletes who swam 0.7 seconds slower than Cate had gone in a garbage meet a few weeks back when she set the world record. 

Manuel's best time going into Rio was a 53.1. A 0.4 second time drop at that level is significant but not a giant red flag.

Edited August 12, 2016 by selkie

[Ohwell]

26 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

My comment had nothing to do with her race and everything to do with her being unfamiliar to me.

Fine.  But I still don't understand how being unfamiliar with a person somehow morphs into the possibility that that person might be doping.   

[Aliconehead]

Quote

Re: Phelps and all his medals.  I think most people realize he/swimmers can race in many events in one Olympics.    Isn't this his 4th Olympics?  So the fact that he has medaled in FOUR Olympics is amazing and certainly worthy of acclaim IMO.  I don't know how these athletes keep the motivation to continue for another 4 years!  His accomplishments are huge -- as are those who, say, in track and field, win one medal.  (I watched the women's 10,000 today and couldn't imagine running that!)

its his fifth.  he just didn't win any medals in 2000.  he was only 15

[briochetwist]

31 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Those of you who’ve kindly given me more information about her past performances have allowed me to accept that my initial skepticism was misplaced, as she has had a lot of success nationally and is obviously a talented swimmer.

For what it’s worth, I’ve cast a bit of a side-eye at Katinka Hossou’s seemingly drastic improvement between Olympics as well, as I’ve also only seen her in London and Rio.

 

Just wondering what you think of the other gold medal winner, Canada's Penny Oleksiak who has also come out of nowhere. She's been an Olympian for like 6 days, has won 4 medals and turned 16 last month!

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, Miss Slay said:

 

So a black woman couldn't possibly win a swimming race. She must be doping. *sigh*

I'm glad I'm not on any social media because, sadly, I bet that's exactly what some folks think.  *sigh*

[KenyaJ]

7 hours ago, Aliconehead said:

I love watching the heats with the swimmers from the odd countries that are not competitive in swimming, like Ethiopia.  They are just happy to be there and beat their best times.  Just makes me happy for some reason

Me too. I was really happy this afternoon during coverage of the prelims when NBC made a point to show some of those swimmers and show their joyful reactions to competing and beating their personal best times. It was great.

[jjj]

1 hour ago, Thumper said:

Re: Phelps and all his medals.  I think most people realize he/swimmers can race in many events in one Olympics.    Isn't this his 4th Olympics?  So the fact that he has medaled in FOUR Olympics is amazing and certainly worthy of acclaim IMO.  I don't know how these athletes keep the motivation to continue for another 4 years!  His accomplishments are huge -- as are those who, say, in track and field, win one medal.  (I watched the women's 10,000 today and couldn't imagine running that!)

Fifth Olympics (Sydney, Athens, Beijing, London Rio), with eight gold medals in Athens and Beijing.  He was only 15 years old in Sydney.  I was thrilled to watch all his races from Athens onward, and thought I would not care so much for his 2016 races -- plus, I thought it would be like Torvill and Dean (amazing gold medal ice skaters) who came back to one Olympics too many, and were shadows of their former dazzling selves.  I expected Phelps to have respectable races in Rio, but once again, I am glued to the screen and trying to find the live feed (kind of hard to find on the West Coast), and it is as thrilling this year as it was in 2004.  I am surprised at how gripping I still find this. 

And given how creaky and stiff he is in Rio as he crawls out of the pool after his races, I do not expect to see him in another Olympics, no matter what Lochte is saying.  Age can be pushed back up to a point, but not after a certain point. 

[Bewitched]

Awesome, awesome swim for Dirado!

[Aliconehead]

so happy for Dirado. Way to beat Hosszu. 

[KenyaJ]

Go Maya Dirado! I didn't think anyone would beat Hosszu at all these games. To see Maya win an individual gold after her touching reaction to Simone's win last night was awesome. I'm so thrilled for her!

[Ohwell]

Yay DiRado!  Her first Olympic games (anyone ever heard of her before?)  And she upset Hozzu (sp?).    

Will anyone speculate that she's doping?  I think not.  Congrats to her.

[Growsonwalls]

Go Maya Durado! And Hosszu's husband was a good sport about it at least on camera.

[Sew Sumi]

DiRado! USA! MURICA!!!! 

What a refreshing upset. 

[MyAimIsTrue]

Maya DiRado is so cute, she looks like Dave Grohl's little sister.

[Daisy]

Another day another swimming medal. I am so happy with Canada's swimming programme. 

[Rinaldo]

WTF Maya DiRado?!? Way to go for it! I don't care which country she represents, I always just love to see things done supremely well. And that was a thrilling race. It also shows that Hosszu's speed is achievable without doping. (Unless someone now starts speculating about DiRado -- and sadly someone probably will. "Out of nowhere" and all.) That was great.

[MyAimIsTrue]

Fuck you NBC for barely giving a mention to the non-Phelps US swimmer in the 100m butterfly.

[galaxygirl76]

Holy cow, a three way tie for silver! And way to go Schooling from Singapore!

[sab85]

3 way tie?! Awesome, I love crazy stuff.

And congrats to Singapore on their 1st swimming medal!

[Aliconehead]

I love a good story, congrats to Schooling, if it couldn't be phelps glad it was you. Three way tie for silver?!? Wow

[jjj]

Well, speaking of awarding more than three medals for an event!!!  I've never seen *three* silvers!!!

[Daisy]

Wow. Who saw that coming?