S04.E02: The Lion And The Rose 2014.04.13

[NoWillToResist]

 

That's five kingly failures between the two of them (if you count Joffrey once for each of them).

I'd count the deaths of the Mad King and Joffrey as successes, not failures...  ;)  I'll even let Renly's death slide because...killer smoke monster? How do you take that down?

But yes, I imagine that Jaime and Marg will suffer for their dead kings...

[Eucrid]

 I'll even let Renly's death slide because...killer smoke monster? How do you take that down?

You just put the plug back in the island. Obviously.

[Subrookie]

I haven't really seen this discussed anywhere because the wedding was such a big part of the last episode, but Bran's vision was confusing.

All I got out of it was a dragon flying over Kings Landing, I assume some allusions that winter is coming, and a few shots of Ned Starks face. I did start to wonder about the dragon. If Bran is a Worg, and Worgs can control animals, couldn't Bran conceivably control one of the dragons?

[TooMuchCoffee]

I thought Margery's necklace was deliberately delicate and less ostentatious than the clunky choices presented on the balcony. Lady O wisely knows that it does matter, to a degree, what the common people think and the Tyrells seem to want to present a different image of wealth than the Lanisters. Cersei wore big chunks of gold and doesn't give a flip if people are hungry. 

Edited April 15, 2014 by TooMuchCoffee

[TooMuchCoffee]

I haven't really seen this discussed anywhere because the wedding was such a big part of the last episode, but Bran's vision was confusing.

All I got out of it was a dragon flying over Kings Landing, I assume some allusions that winter is coming, and a few shots of Ned Starks face. I did start to wonder about the dragon. If Bran is a Worg, and Worgs can control animals, couldn't Bran conceivably control one of the dragons?

I'm not sure where I saw it but I did see that speculation somewhere.

 I also read that Bran's vision of the dragon shadow was similar to one that Dany had (people obviously have much better memories for detail than I do).  That link can mean all sorts of things.  

My list of scenes to go back and rewatch is getting quite long.

[atomationage]

 

So I guess the special entertainment was that awful re-enactment with dwarfs

I liked that scene, especially Stannis running away after Joffrey threw the Wildfire at him.  I thought it was pretty funny, until Robb's wolf head came off.  Then we got the big reaction shot from Sansa.  The names of all the characters in GOT should spell check as correct by now!  I don't know who killed Joffrey, but I don't think Sansa and Tyrion were involved.   It had to be something that only Joffrey touched or ate.  I thought Gleeson was great throughout the series, and Joffrey in death became a young boy.  Tywin and Cersei are still in charge if Tommin becomes king.  I don't see what Margaery has to gain from Joffrey's death at this point.  I guess she could marry Tommin, but he looks way too young for it.

The hunting dogs scene was hard to watch, and I didn't even recognize Alfie Allen at first. 

Jamie and Bronn are good together. 

I thought Dinklage was the best in this one, but Sophie Turner did a lot with very little.

Joffrey mentioned that every time he used the sword he would think of cutting off Ned Stark's head. 

I shouldn't delete the episode until after I read here.  I watched it twice, but I didn't see anything happening in the scene between Olenna and Sansa.  There must have been some point in the necklace storyline and bringing back the Fool Knight.

Edited April 15, 2014 by atomationage

[NoWillToResist]

 

I don't see what Margaery has to gain from Joffrey's death at this point.

Well, not marrying a sadist has to have some perks, I would think. :)

 

I thought Dinklage was the best in this one, but Sophie Turner did a lot with very little.

I thought Dinklage and Turner were great with their expressions. You could see that they were both disgusted/horrified/angry at Joffrey, but they held it together. I felt that many of Tyrion's glances in Sansa's direction practically screamed "oh my God, I'm sorry that my nephew is such an unpardonable asshole. Please don't hold it against me...I hate him too!" :)

[joliefaire]

Haha, a note to us from the author: 

[sbkasha]

 

I'm horrified that they served wedding cake with dove blood all over and in it. Gross! Maybe Joffrey died from some super fast avian flu? ;)

The pie that Joffrey hacked into with his sword was not the same pie that was served to the guests.  The pie served to the guests was a pigeon pie - several were baked and served.  The pie he hacked into is just part of the wedding feast ritual.  It was either made of clay or wood (I think clay) and is meant to be broken into to let the doves fly out.  It wasn't meant to be sliced by a sword made of valeryian steel.  The doves aren't meant to die.

[JTMacc99]

I shouldn't delete the episode until after I read here.  I watched it twice, but I didn't see anything happening in the scene between Olenna and Sansa.  There must have been some point in the necklace storyline and bringing back the Fool Knight.

Well, if I want to tie everything together, I could say that the Fool gave Sansa the necklace, which had the poison in it, but that was just to make it available to Lady Olena during the wedding. Lady Olena took the poison off of the necklace while she was giving Sansa the "to kill somebody at a wedding, tsk tsk" talk. She then slips the poison into the drink or maybe pie, which she had the opportunity to do, and Joffrey dies. The Fool then grabs Sansa and whisks her away because HE knew where the poison came from, even if Sansa had no idea what the hell just happened. While maybe he didn't think Sansa was going to get in trouble for just being the carrier between him and Lady Olena, he probably also wanted to cover his bases and get her out of there just in case Lady Olena decided to throw Sansa under the bus right there.

There are obviously A LOT of holes in a theory like that, starting with whether or not Sansa's necklace is the right one. Which it probably isn't.

Although there are also a lot of compelling reasons to keep thinking about necklaces. There were two different necklace stories leading up to the wedding. The Fool was in one of them and Lady Olena was in the other one. The fact that the eagle eyes around here noticed that Lady Olena touched at Sansa's necklace during the wedding only adds fuel to the fire and my speculation that necklaces are involved somehow.

[NoWillToResist]

 

The pie that Joffrey hacked into with his sword was not the same pie that was served to the guests.  The pie served to the guests was a pigeon pie - several were baked and served.  The pie he hacked into is just part of the wedding feast ritual.

Oh, thank goodness. People ate all manner of questionable stuff back then, so it wouldn't have surprised me.... :D

[andsohespoke]

I haven't really seen this discussed anywhere because the wedding was such a big part of the last episode, but Bran's vision was confusing.

All I got out of it was a dragon flying over Kings Landing, I assume some allusions that winter is coming, and a few shots of Ned Starks face. I did start to wonder about the dragon. If Bran is a Worg, and Worgs can control animals, couldn't Bran conceivably control one of the dragons?

I didn't even give it a second thought. I did recognize four of the clips though. 1)Ned in jail. 2)Ned cleaning sword 3)creepy little zombie girl from the first episode of the series and 4)the shot of the snowy field. The shot of the snowy field looked like the opening shot of season 3. If these scenes have anything in common, it might give us a hint about his visions. And I'm inclined to think that the dragon flying over King's Landing was a false vision or a vision of the past. We know winter lasts for years and years here, but it didn't look like winter. Unless the show is going to do a time jump, that either wasn't a future we will see, or it's a vision of the past. But a time jump could make sense soon, as things might be dying down in KL, Arya won't have much to do, there won't be much at the wall after they fight--I could totally see the the author just butchering the entire nights watch...where does the show go from here, but to wait for some characters to grow up a little bit?

[melaka]

It's episodes like this that make me glad that I haven't read the books (yet). Joffrey's death had me standing up and clapping, saying "wow" over and over again, with a big grin on my face. I'm so glad I wasn't spoiled for it, as many late-watchers have been.

I like the theory that the Tyrells were behind the poisoning, and I imagine Margery will be betrothed/engaged to Tommen, with the idea of marriage in a few years. Though Joffrey's death certainly puts a shadow on her, with two husbands dying. That's the only thing that keeps me from buying in 100% on the Tyrell speculation.

As someone else noted, I saw a real connection between Tyrion and Sansa, and am disappointed that he's now been accused of murder and wish we could've seen their relationship develop more. I really hated Sansa throughout the early episodes and now have so much sympathy for her and respect at the way she's handled herself.

Honestly, I zoned out for much of the episode and somewhat intentionally only paid part attention to the Theon/Ramsay section. I'm also a bit bored with the Stannis stuff. I was happy to see Bran but missed Arya. I'll have to go back and re-watch.

[Stardancer Supreme]

Being unspoiled is indeed awesome.

[Carrie Ann]

Haha, a note to us from the author: 

(Just to be clear, GRRM isn't actually on Twitter, but this is funny anyway.)

[CPTSockPuppet]

Well, if I want to tie everything together, I could say that the Fool gave Sansa the necklace, which had the poison in it, but that was just to make it available to Lady Olena during the wedding. 

Although that begs the question, why would Lady Olenna have needed Sansa to bring the poison to the wedding? Couldn't she just have brought a vial of poison herself, or her own necklace? As much as I like the elaborate plan idea, it seems like that would've complicated things unnecessarily for Lady Olenna.

[Jamoche]

How to make a pie with live birds - it's basically a hollow extra-sturdy pie crust that you put the birds into just before serving.

[JTMacc99]

Although that begs the question, why would Lady Olenna have needed Sansa to bring the poison to the wedding? Couldn't she just have brought a vial of poison herself, or her own necklace? As much as I like the elaborate plan idea, it seems like that would've complicated things unnecessarily for Lady Olenna.

I am absolutely over complicating it. Seems like the thing to do when it comes to this show.

[Conan Troutman]

Although that begs the question, why would Lady Olenna have needed Sansa to bring the poison to the wedding? Couldn't she just have brought a vial of poison herself, or her own necklace? As much as I like the elaborate plan idea, it seems like that would've complicated things unnecessarily for Lady Olenna.

Yes, she probably could've brought her own poison. It's not that she'd be heavily searched. But there are other reasons to get Sansa involved. Maybe to gain control over Sansa. Olenna likely would just drop the empty "jewel" somewhere, instead of carrying it around for a while after she used it. That'd mean that it likely will be found and the blame will fall on Sansa - but she'll be long gone by then, presumably on her way to some place only the Tyrells know, possibly Highgarden. Or they really did wanted to blame her, but Dontos didn't play along and took her away.

As far as motives go, I can think of two immediatly: A) Let Margaery marry Tommen instead and continue as planned. Olenna's interaction with Tywin seemed to indicate that (but wasn't necessarily honest, see below). It's a good plan, she wouldn't have to marry Joffrey, could still be queen and no one would suspect them.

But I prefer B): Get out of the alliance with the Lannisters. Give Loras a younger bride than Cersei, so he can produce an heir to Highgarden. If he fails, you can still marry Margaery matrilineally (if that's a thing in Westeros, not sure about that), so that move would at least save the status quo. The upside is of course, that they don't have to defend the Lannisters anymore, who are clearly still facing tough challenges. Be it Stannis, the Martells, Dany or the Iron Bank. In the long run, they can still make a move for the Iron Throne (at least they think, not really being aware of what happens north of the Wall). And if they really do have Sansa, they'd think they have the key to the north back.

Biggest question to me is if Margaery would be involved or not. She'd probably be on board with plan A and marrying Tommen, but giving up her dream of being "The Queen"? Not so sure. Of course, Olenna could've done it without her help.

 

Besides that, I also immediatly thought of the "murder on the westeros express" theory. So many people with motives, that'd be truly poetic. Other suspects surely incude the Martells, Tommen himself (qui bono? Him!), Tywin (although I doubt he'd do it publicly and at such an expensive event...), Cersei (gets to keep being queen regent), Varys (poison is a weapon of women and eunuchs, after all, and it surely is for the good of the realm...) and the suspiciously absent Littlefinger (nice little bit of chaos, for sure). Maybe Tyrion paid an assassin, who was waiting behind the bushes on the grassy knoll...

Edited April 16, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Starving Writer]

 

Although that begs the question, why would Lady Olenna have needed Sansa to bring the poison to the wedding?

Assuming that the speculation is correct and the Tyrells are the one who planned out the murder of Jeoffrey (considering all the evidence, that seems the most likely scenario), then they'd need a scapegoat to blame the murder on.  Who better than Lady Sansa, who has clear motivation to kill Jeoffrey (she's a "traitor daughter" after all).  Hence the necklace with the poison in it and the fool / former knight suspiciously taking her away.

 

I think the original plan was for the murder to be blamed on Sansa, the traitor's daughter, when she mysteriously disappears.  No one could've foreseen the whole Tyrion cupbearer incident, which was just a happy little coincidence for whoever murdered Jeoffrey.  

[Stardancer Supreme]

I'm inclined to believe that the necklace Dontos gave to Sansa was actually from his family.  Olenna, who may have known Dontos' family when they were prominent, probably recognized it and was able to use it for her own purposes, if not for Joffrey's death.  Maybe the jewel wasn't poison and is worth a lot more than it looks...

[millahnna]

 

Olenna likely would just drop the empty "jewel" somewhere, instead of carrying it around for a while after she used it.

I doubt there was an empty jewel to drop.  It was probably a crystallized form of whatever poison that was. Really having it smuggled in that way gives everyone involved a perfect alibi (except for Tyrion but I doubt the poisoner, and I'm leaning towards Oleanna, myself, counted on Joffrey's cruelty towards his Uncle); if/when Sansa notices the jewel missing from the necklace she would probably assume it was lost during the chaos of the wedding. 

[Haldebrandt]

I learned to make gifs just so I could do this:  via Imgflip GIF Maker

Edited April 16, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Conan Troutman]

I'm inclined to believe that the necklace Dontos gave to Sansa was actually from his family.  Olenna, who may have known Dontos' family when they were prominent, probably recognized it and was able to use it for her own purposes, if not for Joffrey's death.  Maybe the jewel wasn't poison and is worth a lot more than it looks...

But the Tyrells have plenty of money already. I doubt Olenna would just plain steal anything. Directly from the neck of the wearer, no less. I guess one has to pull quite a bit to get a jewel loose, which you kind of have to notice if it's hanging on your neck. Unless it was prepared to come loose rather easily.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Conan Troutman]

I doubt there was an empty jewel to drop.  It was probably a crystallized form of whatever poison that was. Really having it smuggled in that way gives everyone involved a perfect alibi (except for Tyrion but I doubt the poisoner, and I'm leaning towards Oleanna, myself, counted on Joffrey's cruelty towards his Uncle); if/when Sansa notices the jewel missing from the necklace she would probably assume it was lost during the chaos of the wedding. 

I considered this, but it can't have been very long in the cup, a few seconds at most. Not enough time to fully dissolve. Look at candi sugar - you can make it look like a jewel, but it takes a couple of minutes to dissolve if it's that size. And you sure as hell don't want some chunks swimming around there to warn him.

I think it has to be something that feels like a jewel (in case Sansa plays around with it a bit) but can still be opened rather easily, if you know how.

Plus, it really doesn't make sense to involve Sansa if they don't want her to be incriminated in some kind of way. If you can't track that jewel back to her (and you can't, if it's completely gone), why use her in the first place? No, I think they want an empty jewel to be found, either to blame her and/or to gain control/leverage over her. 

 

I think the original plan was for the murder to be blamed on Sansa, the traitor's daughter, when she mysteriously disappears.  No one could've foreseen the whole Tyrion cupbearer incident, which was just a happy little coincidence for whoever murdered Jeoffrey.

But wouldn't that be even better? Sansa carrying the poison and Tyrion putting it in the wine? That'd be some evidence, if you really want to blame them. Why waste that away? No, I think either Dontos crossed Olenna by snagging Sansa away or they want some leverage to pressure her into something.

 

 

 

[MarySNJ]

One thing I *did* wonder... was Cersi wearing the one that Olenna tossed off the balcony?  Not that it looked *exactly* like it, but it sure was 'in the ballpark'.

 

I noticed that too and thought it was funny. What Lady Olenna thought was ugly enough to toss out, is exactly the kind of thing Cersei would wear to a wedding.

Poor Sansa. If the Tyrell theory plays out on the TV show, she's really a pawn in everyone's game and goes to show how opportunistic the Tyrells are. I don't think they harbor any particular animosity towards her - but they'd set her up as a patsy anyway. That sneakiness almost worse than the in-your-faceLannister approach.  

Edited April 16, 2014 by MarySNJ

[JTMacc99]

Yeah.

But I've got the feeling that Sansa's about due to stand up and become a force. Seems like the other Stark kids are being set up to be still very important, so it should be about time that Sansa joins the fray. I think what happens in this episode, and her connection to Tyrion, all seem to point her in a direction where she is either going to just go away, or stand up and fight.

(Of course, with the Starks it seems like you stand up and fight. And then somebody kills you in episode 9. So I guess she could do both!)

[millahnna]

 

I considered this, but it can't have been very long in the cup, a few seconds at most. Not enough time to fully dissolve.

On the one hand, I think it was in front of Lady O for a good minute, at least.  On the other hand, this is a world with magic, zombies, dragons, and seasons that last for decades so I'm no overly concerned about rules of physics.  I mean the world may be based on our own European medieval times or whatever but it isn't actually our own world.  So it's not like "in those times" types of things ever, ever apply.  I realize that's not what you're actually saying (in those times I mean) it's just an easy, go-to analogous concept. 

Put another way, I can roll with dissolving poison gem.  It's a simpler solution that dangling poison sac that must be removed from necklace (without losing the poison), emptied into the cup, and then discarded. 

[FozzyBear]

 

I liked that aside from Jamie and Cersei, nobody rushed to Joffrey's aid.

Cersei... you're despicable. What's the point of giving the food to the dogs? Just because she couldn't bear the thought of someone doing good for the less fortunate? Or maybe she's hoping that people would find out that Margaery didn't deliver on her first promise as queen?

Hehe.  That was hilarious the way every one just stood around shaking their head in a "well that's a shame" manner while the KING WAS DYING!  Man, every person in Kings Landing wanted Joffery dead.  Except for Cersi and Jamie.  I'm not ruling anyone out, even Tywin.  That salty old dog knows a bad hand when he sees it.  He may have assumed that Joffery was becoming dangerous in his hubris.  And as much as he hates Tyrion, the whole goblet handler stunt may have been too much for him.  He still needs others to respect both the Lanaster name and Tyrion in his position.  Joffery never gets this stuff.  Now I don’t think Tywin is the most likely suspect, but I'm still not ruling him out.

I think Cersi can’t stand how popular Margarey is so she wants it to seem like she promised food to the poor and then gave it to the dogs.  Remember during the siege when Cersi found out exactly how hated her and her son are?  I think she can’t stand it and is determined to make sure everyone is as miserable as she is.  Cersi is losing her cool.  That's how I interpreted the look Brienne gave her when she was interrogating her about Jamie.  I didn’t think it was a "Maybe I am in love with Jamie!" look.  I thought it was a "Holly crap!  The rumors are true! You're in love with Jamie!  Jesus you people are twisted." look.

[TooMuchCoffee]

I'm no expert, but Occam's razor doesn't always seem to apply in the world of George RR Martin.  I think he enjoys tangled webs. 

I'm ready to believe just about anything including an application of River Song's lipstick. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

But the Tyrells have plenty of money already. I doubt Olenna would just plain steal anything. Directly from the neck of the wearer, no less. I guess one has to pull quite a bit to get a jewel loose, which you kind of have to notice if it's hanging on your neck. Unless it was prepared to come loose rather easily.

For all we know, the Tyrells might be losing money by keeping King's Landing fed and entertained.  Sansa has no real clue about the necklace she is wearing. If Olenna knows what it is, I wouldn't be surprised at her taking advantage of her knowledge.  

[Lady S.]

That's how I interpreted the look Brienne gave her when she was interrogating her about Jamie.  I didn’t think it was a "Maybe I am in love with Jamie!" look.  I thought it was a "Holly crap!  The rumors are true! You're in love with Jamie!  Jesus you people are twisted." look.

Brienne already knows the rumors are true, even if "we don't get to choose who we love" wasn't enough of a clue, she was standing right there when Jaime told Catelyn he was more honorable than Ned in his own way because he'd only slept with his sister.

At least the Kingslayer did something to help, he might get shit from Cersei but the other Kingsguards just standing there were really falling down on the job. Even Ser Meryn didn't care about Joffrey after all.

[Meredith Quill]

If only Joffrey had drank his wine from the vessel with the pestle...

 

I'm glad he got the flagon with the dragon ;)

Didn't the chalice from the palace have the brew which is true? ;-)

Yes originally, but the chalice from the palace got broken, so the vessel with the pestle held the brew that was true and pellet with the poison was in the flagon with the dragon. :p

[Mz Anthrope]

I keep hearing Olenna telling Tywin (when they are both walking and Tywin's complaining about the cost of the wedding and monies wasted) that he may want to enjoy it before he dies.

I believe that carafe was in front of Cersi and Tywin that the wine which was given to Joffrey was placed.  And when Olenna walks past that carafe, you can hear a 'tink' as she passes.  I believe that the necklace was planted on Sansa, Olenna plucked one of the dangling 'gems', planted it in the carafe before Tywin and Cersi, and I don't know if Joffrey was the intended victim.   Happy mistake, maybe, but I still wonder if this is as the 'plan' was intended.

[CletusMusashi]

Oh, I almost forgot. Two, count 'em, two, Monty Python references this week.

We started out with Davos being corrected on his pronunciation of "kaniggets..."

and finished up with a scene in which the heroic side is taunted at the gates while obnoxious foreigners snicker at them over the wall. 

I admit, the second one could have been a coincidence, if it was out there all by itself.

But after that first joke, no way. These writers have seen "Holy Grail."

[atomationage]

I watched the 3rd season dvds in the last few days.  Anyone could have killed Joffrey.  He even taunted his grandfather about "hiding under Casterly Rock".   I don't think the Tyrells did it.  It was more likely to be a Lannister or Stark.

[Constantinople]

What She Said (Melisandre):
The septons speak of seven gods
There are but two
A god of light, love and joy, and

A god of darkness, evil and fear

 

What We Heard:
The septons speak of seven gods
There are but two
A god of light, love and joy

And my god

[Superpole2000]

I found this episode disappointing. The dogs eating the girl running for her life. That sick moron continuing to torment Theon. Joffrey's and Cersei's random meanness that grew as tiresome as it was unnecessary. Bran's weird dreams and uninteresting visions. I was struggling to find any moments that I could enjoy. This show sometimes veers too much towards misery, and even with tonight's villain comeuppance, the show was still too miserable for me to enjoy.

[supposebly]

Wow, that did NOT disappoint. Probably wins the price of the most tense and awkward and horrible scene that went on and on and on and my disbelief at it grew and grew and grew. Nicely died, Joffrey. You were an ugly despicable pathetic excuse for a human being and finally, in your death, you looked like it. Jack Gleason was so wonderful.

The show seems to make it quite plain that it was either Margaery or Olanna.

 

Loved Loras' stinger to Jamie. A sorely needed moment of levity.

 

So, I guess Ramsay is now highest on my shit list. Although I can't really feel too bad about Theon. He sucked as a human being. The shell of a person who wasn't much to begin with. What Jon said about always being jealous of Robb, but somehow never hating him. I wondered about Theon maybe not ever quite being able to get the difference.

 

How is Shae not getting in how much danger she is? For a somewhat high-class prostitute she has remarkably few survival instincts.

 

Thyrion lending Bronn to Jamie was very kind. He seems such an odd man out among the Lannisters. Although Jamie seems to be finding his own soul among the carnage that is Westeros. While Arya might have lost hers.

 

I couldn't figure out if Melisandre is going to cure Shireen or burn her alive in her bed.

Edited December 26, 2015 by supposebly

[The Companion]

I am doubtful it is the Tyrells. Margaery was in no imminent danger and had shown herself to be more than capable of managing Joffrey.  If they were going to kill him, they would have waited until she had a son. I see Margaery playing the long game.

I hate the Greyjoy storyline. Theon killed two  innocent children and betrayed those that arises him. Screw him. That being said, I can't root for his torturer either. That leaves me hating everyone in those scenes and wishing I was watching any of the other storylines.

Joffrey's death was amazing. I don't think I have ever rooted for the death of a character that hard.