S01.E04: Dead to Me

[formerlyfreedom]

As the boys gear up for Pope's birthday, Smurf wants to know if they're playing by her rules. J learns more about his mother's estrangement from the family.

 

[Texasmom1970]

Wow this family really puts the fun in dysfunctional! Seriously do any of them truly trust, tell the truth or have real loyalty to each other?

And I don't mean in their I will kill someone for you and all the inappropriate behavior they seem to think is normal.

Still not sure might give it one or two more episodes.

[I-Kare]

Fave episode so far! This is quickly becoming my summer obsession.

[NorthstarATL]

This episode did nothing to disabuse me of my theory that Pope is J's father. I forgot about the schoolteacher who was so concerned for J's welfare in the pilot ep! Should have seen THAT coming as well! (Though I initially thought she was going to have J photographed by her friend, which would be even more awkward!) I still get the two long-haired brothers confused.

[Chaos Theory]

Sharing your pot hookup with your boyfriends grandma. Its just polite.

I am starting to like Pope.  I outright hated him the first two episodes but he is growing on me.  

The School teacher is putting off all kinds of weird vibes when it comes to J.  Then again it might just be this show.  Was that her asking him on a date or being concerned for his welfare?  Either one works for me.  

[Laurie4H]

Am I the only one that thinks Pope was acting out some real life scenario with the stripper that actually happened with his sister?  

[SoapDoc]

4 minutes ago, Laurie4H said:

Am I the only one that thinks Pope was acting out some real life scenario with the stripper that actually happened with his sister?  

No, you are not. I wonder if Smurf knows...

[numbnut]

I'm losing interest and am totally confused about who is related to whom. I also don't get why the guys think they're incapable of scouting jobs without Smurf.

[AlliMo]

As big of idiots as these guys are (maybe excepting Baz,) I don't know how they manage to dress themselves every day, let alone support themselves so comfortably with their criminal activity.

Damn, Craig is an even bigger scumbag than I thought, robbing her while leaving her to die.

When Daren came in and asked where breakfast was, I realized it was the first time I'd ever seen Smurf in the kitchen where she wasn't surrounded by massive piles of food.

I can see where Catherine is coming from but girl, you made yourself complicit in all of this. You knew what you were getting into, with Baz and with Smurf. Learn to play along or get out.

[Chaos Theory]

7 hours ago, numbnut said:

I'm losing interest and am totally confused about who is related to whom. I also don't get why the guys think they're incapable of scouting jobs without Smurf.

Smurf is the one who does.  The guys want to do jobs without her.  The problem is she isn't completely wrong.  The initial jewelry job Daten and Craig were supposed to watch the store and the guards for a couple of days but it looks like they didn't.   If they did they might have known the schedule changed when the real cop moonlighted there.   I don't think they are stupid perse; they both lack follow through.  Not to mention Craig is an addict.  Baz is the only one of the group who thinks two seconds beyond his own immediate needs.

[sugarbaker design]

The plot thickens.  Is J's dad Baz, or is it Pope?  It's already been established that Baz is not Smurf's bio-son, but Pope, Craig and Deran are, each with a different Daddy.  Has it been established who Julia's bio-mom is?  Is she a stray like Baz?  or Smurf's bio-daughter?  I like that the show is taking its time answering these questions. 

Julia and Pope share a birthday!  Twins?

Was Smurf's hookup a dead ringer for Craig?

Edited June 29, 2016 by sugarbaker design

[Artsda]

I thought Smurf's hookup was Craig in that first scene that they looked so much alike. How creepy and well cast of that hook up guy.

Julie and Pope are twins, they share the same father. Pope 

I loved the scene of all of them fighting and jumping out of the plane. It was a great scene and well shot.

Quote

 

Am I the only one that thinks Pope was acting out some real life scenario with the stripper that actually happened with his sister?  

 

 I thought it was Catherine he was thinking about and acting out probably what happened when they slept together. Since they established his feelings for her last episode and even showed the carvings on the bed this episode.

[portfino]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Smurf is the one who does.  The guys want to do jobs without her.  The problem is she isn't completely wrong.  The initial jewelry job Daten and Craig were supposed to watch the store and the guards for a couple of days but it looks like they didn't.   If they did they might have known the schedule changed when the real cop moonlighted there.   I don't think they are stupid perse; they both lack follow through.  Not to mention Craig is an addict.  Baz is the only one of the group who thinks two seconds beyond his own immediate needs.

I strongly suspect that Smurf notified security. She needs a reason to hide the profits of the deals from the boys so she can keep them under her thumb.

[iMonrey]

I want to feel sorry for J but he's such a cipher. He's in a no-win situation - if he rats out his uncles to Smurf they'd probably kill him. If he keeps quiet, Smurf throws him out. Surely she realizes this - she was the one who manipulated him into coming back home when he tried to run away. Yet he lacks the articulation to express any of this to either his uncles or his grandmother. He's so hard to read compared to Baz, Smurf, Craig or Deran, who are all much more fleshed-out as characters. Even Pope is getting easier to understand.

I honestly don't think Pope is his father (although Baz probably isn't either). I think most of the weirdness going on with Pope is caused by his love for, or obsession with, Catherine. There does however seem to be some mystery attached to why J's mother became estranged from the rest of her family.

J's teacher so totally wants to fuck him.

[sjohnson]

Whatever the equivalent character in the movie was, this J is a very good liar (and we have Smurf telling us to make sure we get the point,) very conflicted about his mother whom he loved and hated, and very, very tempted to think of Smurf's menagerie as the good family he always wanted, with money, adventure, good meals, no responsibility for a druggie mother and even fewer rules than before. I don't think there's too much confusion about what's bothering him. Smurf may be by his standards a much better mother than Julia, but as his new mother figure, she's automatically invested with some of the resentments he felt for her. He didn't weep for his real original mother, he won't feel all warm inside for his new one either. He sort of likes the material goods from his uncles, but he dislikes having to compete for nest space with siblings he's never had before. He's doesn't even know who his father his so the hints about Baz are very provocative to him (as Smurf knew.) 

I thought the incision on the bed as Pope and Baz and Julia. This strengthens the notion that Pope is thinking of Catherine at the strip club. It seems very unlikely to me that people are just evil, there are reasons (which may not be the same at all as the rationalizations!) So yes, a warm and close relationship between the twins and the kid fleeing an abusive home to a neighbor could well have been real. 

As for child molestation being the "cause" of drug addiction? Of course it's possible, which is why is a bit of a cliche. But the chemical properties of drugs along with the individual variations in neurophysiology and the ability to afford to indulge without apparent consequence are quite enough to "explain" addiction. The traumas of withdrawal, especially yo-yoing up and down on dope of various kinds, can I think cause quite enough mental disturbance. 

At the strip club, it seemed to me possible the others were perfectly aware that Deran didn't have the same stake in the proceedings as the others. I think that's subtle. But it sure seemed to me that there was nothing subtle about it not being Deran's thing. Unlike a mere BJ from a buy, that I think really does say "Gay."It seems impossible that people that close to him can't see into his closet, even if Deran himself imagines he's hidden in there. And I can see them being so screwed up they regard it as something as unmentionable. 

[atomationage]

The actor that played the guy that Deran beat up in the toilet is going to be in a couple more episodes, so maybe something else will happen between them.  I enjoyed this episode, especially since there was no real crime caper this week.  I'm also confused about the relationships, but I do think Pope was acting out a scene with Julia rather than Catherine in the club.   This show is pretty confusing.  Smurf threw everyone out, but they all came back, then she threw out Deran again.   I'm at the same point I started out.  They've got Barkin and Speedman.  I'm going to keep watching.  Jay is inscrutable.  Craig can disappear any time now.  Pope has gotten more interesting.  Deran is a shifty bastard. 

4 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Whatever the equivalent character in the movie was, this J is a very good liar

They both have to use blank expressions much of the time so that they don't give anything away.

[Chaos Theory]

Did I miss the reason why people are saying Pope is J's father?   Personally I think Pope is just what he appears to be.  A guy with a mental illness fresh out of prison who is in love with his brothers wife and resents being replaced by his twin sister's kid.    I think Smurf fosters all the resentment and conflict int he family because it works in her benefit and keeps everyone coming back to her.  Plus she raised all her children to be pure id and I think that might include Julia as well.  The problem is that boys are easier to control then girls are and I think somewhere Smurf lost her hold on Julia but Julia was still pure id and unable to control her basest instincts and needs.

[MaggieG]

Was Smurf's hookup Jason Lewis aka Smith Jerrod? I think it was. 

"Can we not talk about our mom in the strip club?", that line did make me giggle. 

[atomationage]

7 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

Was Smurf's hookup Jason Lewis aka Smith Jerrod? I think it was. 

He's listed as being in this episode, character name Toby.  Now I have to re-watch that.

[NorthstarATL]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Did I miss the reason why people are saying Pope is J's father?   Personally I think Pope is just what he appears to be.  A guy with a mental illness fresh out of prison who is in love with his brothers wife and resents being replaced by his twin sister's kid.    I think Smurf fosters all the resentment and conflict int he family because it works in her benefit and keeps everyone coming back to her.  Plus she raised all her children to be pure id and I think that might include Julia as well.  The problem is that boys are easier to control then girls are and I think somewhere Smurf lost her hold on Julia but Julia was still pure id and unable to control her basest instincts and needs.

I guessed at it in the pilot because Pope's reactions toward J seemed OTT right off the bat (the other brothers' resentments stem from things we've seen occur in the series), the family boundaries seem to be a little "off" in general, especially where Smurf is concerned, and because J's mother was both Pope's twin and an addict, which, in TV terms, means she was dealing with some trauma, in this case I was/am guessing the incest. The acting out at the strip club could be because Pope was having illicit sex with Catherine, but seemed more psychologically tormenting, and, given that the day was the birthday he shared with his twin, an event perhaps related to her. I could be totally wrong, of course.

Edited June 30, 2016 by NorthstarATL

[sugarbaker design]

Quote

Did I miss the reason why people are saying Pope is J's father?

The scene with Pope and the stripper.  Didn't he say something along the lines of 'we're doing something we shouldn't be doing' like Jamie and Cersei Lannister.

[Kuther2000]

 I feel terrible during the first scene at the house I thought it was Craig and was little shocked that he was kissing his mother like that. It wasnt until later that night in the scene when he is upstairs did I notice it couldn't be Craig because he was with his dealer/hookup at hospital.

[lovelynn]

30 minutes ago, Kuther2000 said:

 I feel terrible during the first scene at the house I thought it was Craig and was little shocked that he was kissing his mother like that. It wasnt until later that night in the scene when he is upstairs did I notice it couldn't be Craig because he was with his dealer/hookup at hospital.

Thanks for this comment, it wasn't until I read it that I realized that Smurf wasn't being completely disgusting with her son. I guess I'm a prude but she just seems overly familiar with her boys. Stripping her grandson's bed while he is getting changed just seems wrong to me.

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

The scene with Pope and the stripper.  Didn't he say something along the lines of 'we're doing something we shouldn't be doing' like Jamie and Cersei Lannister.

Catherine would say that if she were cheating on Baz, too, so it can be read both ways. I'm resistant to the cliche about trauma causing drug addiction. Sexual molestation in childhood seems even more likely to lead to disturbances in the expression of sexuality, possibly distaste for the idea of sex, fear of men, frigidity, or possibly promiscuous search for validation, an illusion of power over men...none of which we know about Julia. 

1 hour ago, lovelynn said:

 Stripping her grandson's bed while he is getting changed just seems wrong to me.

Nudity within the family isn't our family's choice either, but it seems that there is no pathology associated with that as such.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Did I miss the reason why people are saying Pope is J's father?   Personally I think Pope is just what he appears to be.  A guy with a mental illness fresh out of prison who is in love with his brothers wife and resents being replaced by his twin sister's kid. 

That's my take as well. Unless the idea of Pope being J's father comes from the movie I've seen nothing to suggest it. I'm taking it at face value that Catherine is Pope's target and obsession and who he was picturing when he was with the stripper. 

Maybe all the speculation about the incest comes from the fact the this family is just that fucked up, but if J were Pope's son I think his uncles would have a very different reaction to him. 

[atomationage]

I don't know what the age difference is between the brothers, but Pope is much older than Daren, who is not that much older than Jay.   I don't think Daren would know who Jay's father was.  Craig probably wouldn't care.  Baz resented Jay even being at his place, where Jay clearly went to figure out if he was his bio-dad, which was odd considering how friendly he had been before.  There is probably going to be a major conflict between Baz and Pope at some point if Baz always gets whatever Pope wants. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

The main reason I don't think Pope had Catherine in mind while he was with the stripper is that she stripper was a redhead. I would think he'd at least try to get with a brunette. And does Catherine call him "Andrew"?

Ew at Smurf sleeping with guy who looks like one of her sons and making sure they notice. The mindfuckery just never stops with her. She's on it 24/7.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Joimiaroxeu

[sugarbaker design]

Quote

Catherine would say that if she were cheating on Baz, too, so it can be read both ways.

It would be a trip if Smurf had a different boyfriend every week that was the spitting image of one of her sons, this week Craig's doppelganger, next week Baz's twin!

[nilyank]

17 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

The main reason I don't think Pope had Catherine in mind while he was with the stripper is that she stripper was a redhead. I would think he'd at least try to get with a brunette. And does Catherine call him "Andrew"?

But Pope didn't choose the redhead. Baz hired her for him.

So we still don't know.

I thought J wanted to go Baz's bathroom to steal a toothbrush or hairbrush to get his dna test done but then Baz showed up and kicked him out.

[sjohnson]

Catherine won't call him "Andrew" when she doesn't want to be intimate with him. She might if she did. It's meant to be ambiguous. They could be using the sexual abuse causing drug addiction etc. cliche as a misdirect, or they could be investing in a proven growth stock.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

What if Pope did have a relationship with his sister and she "left" him for Baz who would have also been Pope's friend...later Pope transfers his feeling to Catherine?  Wanting to take something from Baz who he felt took something from him?

Smurf has kept these boys from growing up...they are basically children.  She keeps them amused with drugs and flaunting societal norms.  

Given Pope's mental health issues it's not hard to believe that his twin might have issues too beyond being raised by a sociopath (or whatever Smurf is), she could have started self medicating with heroin ending up addicted.

[atomationage]

I think they all have mental health issues, except for Baz.  The apples didn't fall far from the Smurf Tree, mostly because she didn't want them to.  She has given them long leashes, but knows how to control them, even putting medication (Lithium?) in Pope's food like you might do to a dog. 

[SingleMaltBlonde]

On 7/1/2016 at 2:46 PM, nilyank said:

I thought J wanted to go Baz's bathroom to steal a toothbrush or hairbrush to get his dna test done but then Baz showed up and kicked him out.

You can buy DNA paternity kits at Walgreens...given how often all those guys are passed out drunk around the pool I don't think you have to sneak around to get any DNA.

I understand Catherine not wanting Smurf near her daughter...I wouldn't trust her with a houseplant but I do agree that a 4 year old who live in southern California on the beach should know how to swim.

[SunnyBeBe]

I've just started trying to catch up on this show.  I have to like it, because I ADORE Ellen Barkin.  So, regardless, I'm going to enjoy the show at least a little bit.

The boys do annoy me though.  The family reminds me a little of Fargo, Season 2 with the family dynamics and self destructive behavior.  We all know how that ends, so I hope better for Smurf.  

With the way her boys behave though.....I'd be thinking of ways to resolve it.  Huge liabilities imo. 

Still, it's definitely a good option for summer viewing. I have a lot of questions, but, I'm going to watch every episode before I start with that.

[MajorMarket]

Like many others have said, there's a lot of mind-f**kery here in the show and the episode - some highlights for me:

1. Smurf's boy-toy looks too creepily like either Craig or Deran.  I had to play the scene back to make sure I was seeing this right - and I was glad that it was a doppelganger and not one of the boys.
2. Grandma Smurf is way over the line to change the sheets while insisting that J go ahead and dress after his shower while she is there.  "Go on, I won't look" is what she said.  J should have said:  "I'll go change in the shower."
3. Skydiving scene was well-played:  nice fight among the blockhead boys as they air their dirty laundry!  Great filming which reminds me why I never understood the need to jump out a perfectly working airplane.
4. Craig is such a drug-addicted douche for robbing Ren while she was on the floor.  Yet, I laughed and laughed at the subsequent ER visit:  Ren saying (paraphrased) "You find the person who robbed me while I was overdosing and you take care of them for me.  It will be worth your while."  The look on Craig's face was priceless - since he would have to beat himself up if truth be told.  You could see that he was having an "Oh, snap!" moment at that point.
5. J's teacher lighting up that joint and basically asking him out to a date to a photo exhibit is creepy.  But, the lady may have just been mesmerized by J's tight jeans.  Lord knows I have been watching those jeans (and underwear).

I've been binging this show and, while they are pretty much all craven people, I'm still enjoying this show.  I'll keep watching since it is so off the rails!

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, MajorMarket said:

Skydiving scene was well-played

Believe me, as a long time skydiver, that scene would never, ever happen in a real plane.  The effect on the stability of the plane would be dramatic, and the pilot would certainly not be idly flying along.  However, accustomed to movie skydiving drama as I am, it's okay to stretch the boundaries a bit.  Or a lot.

[ElleMo]

On 6/29/2016 at 1:24 PM, iMonrey said:

I honestly don't think Pope is his father (although Baz probably isn't either). I think most of the weirdness going on with Pope is caused by his love for, or obsession with, Catherine. There does however seem to be some mystery attached to why J's mother became estranged from the rest of her family.

If you go by what Catherine said, Julia got tits.   Don't know the particulars, but I am assuming that the fallout was between Smurf and Julia and wherever Smurf goes, her sons go too.  

I didn't like Pope until this episode but then I felt really bad for him. I think he was upset about this being the first birthday after Julia died (much different as celebrating when your sister has distanced herself from you but still alive) and the only thing he could express with his family was that he didn't fell like playing paint ball or going skydiving.  

When Pope told J to go over the fence,  I didn't quite hear what he said and was afraid that he wanted J against the fence and we'd see a repeat of the scene with the prostitute. Glad that didn't happen. I really felt bad for him in the cemetery.  I don't think he is faking it.  I think he is truly distressed that Julia's dead and really thought she would  come back one day.

Edited July 10, 2016 by ElleMo

[lazylou]

On June 29, 2016 at 7:34 AM, sugarbaker design said:

The plot thickens.  Is J's dad Baz, or is it Pope?  It's already been established that Baz is not Smurf's bio-son, but Pope, Craig and Deran are, each with a different Daddy.  Has it been established who Julia's bio-mom is?  Is she a stray like Baz?  or Smurf's bio-daughter?  I like that the show is taking its time answering these questions. 

Julia and Pope share a birthday!  Twins?

Was Smurf's hookup a dead ringer for Craig?

On an earlier episode, Pope tells J that his mother was his twin.  

[MCMLXXVII]

On 6/28/2016 at 11:07 PM, Laurie4H said:

Am I the only one that thinks Pope was acting out some real life scenario with the stripper that actually happened with his sister?  

Actually, I immediately noticed that Pope's stripper was wearing a bright silky robe with cheetah print very similar to Smurf's usual robes and tunics, so I first thought he was acting out Oedipal fantasy or reality. The sister theory makes sense too though.