S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[Tikichick]

10 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

At first when Ramsay's mounted troops ran by leaving Jon untouched, I assumed Ramsay had warned them, "leave him for me". But then Ramsay shot the arrow into Wun Wun's eye when he was already in his death throws, and could have killed Jon in that moment - Jon was distracted by the giant's death.  So now I'm not sure if I'm supposed to assume he's AA or one of the other prophecies.  

Loved that Dany and Drogon have perfected their partnership.  From the way he came, landed right beside her without setting the bad guys on fire. Then he unfurled his wing which she climbed like a flight of stairs.  To the ultimate control Dany had over him as she carefully hit only certain targets.  She was also calm and less blood thirsty, and didn't have what some describe, as that mad gleam in her eyes as she ordered Dracarys.  The siblings proved they want in on the action and are only needing riders of their own.

 I can't help but feel that the speculation that Dany will ultimately be a villain and mad like her father are wrong.  I saw a woman who listened to her advisor, had faith in the three she left behind to do what was needed, and reined in the scorched earth policy that has always worked in the past.  And not coincidentally, Drogon seems to have gained self-control of his own.  

You could be correct, you've laid out a very convincing case for it, but reading it so clearly spelled out this way kind of shines a new light on it for me.  We're seeing Jon make mistake after mistake, get killed even at one point, and are being led to believe he's rather clueless and dumb.  It seems like everything is coming together for Dany and she's getting more and more comfortable with the idea of her power and how to use it, while Jon flat out seems to have rejected the idea of having power himself or even wanting it.

What happens if Dany gets to comfortable in her own power and the idea that she knows how to wield it without the need to listen to others anymore?  All of the progress we've seen on her end could easily flip on its head in an instant.  Conversely what happens if a great need presents itself in front of Jon and he must take charge to vanquish it?  That could be what we're leading up to.

[Advance35]

Maybe it's easier for me to accept Sansa's actions because I am not overly fond of the Stark's as a unit.  Sansa is one of my favorite character journey's and I like Jon (FINALLY in Season 5, before that, Yawn) but I have know problem with their dynamic at this juncture.  Knowledge is power and Sansa has learned (the hard way) that you should always seize SOME kind of power if you can.  I don't think on a conscious level, Sansa's thinking is this mercenary but I wouldn't be surprised if deep down this might be an element.   And it's not specific to Jon IMO, I think this is how she now views the world.   Sansa has seen first hand, that Family isn't always going to be to your benefit.  Her time with Lyssa Arryn (and the attempted murder that followed) showed her that.   She's on Jon's side and I don't think she would ever really move against him (unless he moved against her) but she probably can't help feeling a "Me against the rest of the world."  Two other factors I'm sure went into Sansa's silence were, 1) her not wanting LF in any inner-circle she and Jon might have and 2) her being unsure on whether he would deliver considering the last time they met face to face she admitted to thinking about having him killed.

Jon is use to camaraderie, Sansa is not.  For me it's really that simple.  Too much has happened for her to trust anyone completely.    Jon has become a good leader but he still has weaknesses that could be exploited.  He went off book and it got a lot of men killed.   This was when they were against the ropes in terms of numbers, would he have been more cavalier if he had known about the potential of the Vale?  I also wouldn't put it past LF to have waited for the last moment to swoop in so that he could have the largest force around, the same thing he planned to do in regards to The Boltons v. Stannis.

This topic and this particular storyline certainly has tongues wagging and a lot of it (elsewhere) isn't criticism.   This has to be the best reviewed episode since season 3 and everyone seems eager to see what will happen next with Jon, Sansa and LF.   Who would have thought the North would be the Internet's preferred location 3 seasons ago?

Also pleased to see Iwan Rheon get so much love,  since I think he's been awesome in the role.   Many have said they are going to miss the actor.

[jjjmoss]

2 hours ago, Alapaki said:

For example, if you take out the scene between Littlefinger and Sansa at Mole Town, but leave in Littlefinger's scene with Royce and Sansa sending the raven, then I think the arrival of the Vale army becomes much more dramatic.  The only purpose the Mole Town scene served was to bolster the Sansa-as-bad-ass theme, but there were plenty of ways to do that.  Instead, we're left with a bunch of "why didn't she . . . " questions that may or may not be satisfactorily answered next week. 

Given my lack of faith in the show to write a narrative that's coherent and satisfying overall, I don't care about increased dramatics if we get the super amazing scene with Sansa that gave us just the 2nd episode where she was allowed over 300 words. 

[Oscirus]

Quote

  I don't remember Blackwater getting this much flack for Tywins big rescue but I'm assuming that's because it was book source material.  I hadnt read the books yet and I remember going "OH COME ON!" when Tywin saved the day.  But again, straight from the books.

Blackwater at least required Tyrion and co. to use strategy to keep Stannis's soldiers at bay until the arrival of the soldiers. That wasn't the case this time around.

Quote

Also, he had actually met Tyrion, maybe that helped get them an audience with Dany?  While Tyrion's grudge against Theon seemed unfair and petty given all we've seen Theon go through, I had to remind myself that Tyrion knows nothing about it, and may not realize Theon's imprisonment with the Boltons was nearly so bad as it was.  Theon was quite an arrogant prick back in the day, it's amazing how much has changed.  Which Tyrion wouldn't know about of course, so it was a nice opportunity to remind us of the contrast.

It was also a nice character moment for Tyrion. Whether one agrees with it or not, it at least shows us that despite the bravado that the imp/dwarf/half man stuff actually does get to him.

 

Quote

Given they cut away immediately after she bit out the question to her standing at the gates to the kennel leaves plenty of room for the discussion to be had that he could not be left alive under any circumstances with the response being she was told precisely where he was and exactly why he wouldn't be leaving there alive.

He was never going to leave there alive. Hell, even Ramsey knew that. Putting him in the Kennel was just fan service so that people could see Ramsay get what he deserves.  The fact that she chose to torture him as opposed to letting his death play out by hanging or beheading brings her down to his level. Before people respond, yes that's even taking into account all his heinous actions.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

You could be correct, you've laid out a very convincing case for it, but reading it so clearly spelled out this way kind of shines a new light on it for me.  We're seeing Jon make mistake after mistake, get killed even at one point, and are being led to believe he's rather clueless and dumb.  It seems like everything is coming together for Dany and she's getting more and more comfortable with the idea of her power and how to use it, while Jon flat out seems to have rejected the idea of having power himself or even wanting it.

What happens if Dany gets too comfortable in her own power and the idea that she knows how to wield it without the need to listen to others anymore?  All of the progress we've seen on her end could easily flip on its head in an instant.  Conversely what happens if a great need presents itself in front of Jon and he must take charge to vanquish it?  That could be what we're leading up to.

[GrailKing]

21 hours ago, mac123x said:

At least make him a lord.  There should be a couple of empty castles lying about now -- I don't know if there are any remaining Karstarks or Umbers, but the Boltons are extinguished, so give him the Dreadfort.  Though rename it.  "Tormund Giantsbane, Lord of the Happyfort.  And his wife, Lady Brienne."

If he lives, I think he get something in the gift, or some version of a northern house and a bride.

On another point I like to see the Direwolf sigial over the Dreadfort, before Sansa tears it down, some small folk too ( I say Old Nan, but sure she's dead in book as in real life)and what they suffered.

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

10 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

You could be correct, you've laid out a very convincing case for it, but reading it so clearly spelled out this way kind of shines a new light on it for me.  We're seeing Jon make mistake after mistake, get killed even at one point, and are being led to believe he's rather clueless and dumb.  It seems like everything is coming together for Dany and she's getting more and more comfortable with the idea of her power and how to use it, while Jon flat out seems to have rejected the idea of having power himself or even wanting it.

What happens if Dany gets too comfortable in her own power and the idea that she knows how to wield it without the need to listen to others anymore?  All of the progress we've seen on her end could easily flip on its head in an instant.  Conversely what happens if a great need presents itself in front of Jon and he must take charge to vanquish it?  That could be what we're leading up to.

What they just showed us is that despite all the power she currently has,  Dany's more then willing to listen to reasoning.  She's trying to make the world a better place while at the same time going home. If she turns evil, I don't think it'll be because she's power hungry.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Oscirus

[DropTheSoap]

6 hours ago, Arnella said:

When I grow up, I want to be Lady Mormont!

Who doesn't?

As to the comment from another poster that Yara was overplaying the "girl power" theme -- she was flirting. Dany was, at the least, amused if not actually interested. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by DropTheSoap
Clarification.

[GrailKing]

21 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Not true, Jon advises Stannis on how to talk to the Northern houses and all the mountain clans are with him, running to Winterfell to save "Ned's Girl".  There are passages describing how much better the Northerners were dealing with the massive amounts of snow in comparison to Stannis' mostly southern army. We don't really know how the whole thing shakes down in the books, or even if Ramsey's pink letter is real, but if Stannis loses, it will be because of the snows and the weather, not because he lacked men.  Jon told him exactly what to say and how to behave with each house and he got them.

The Manderlys are the ones we most remember because of the smart long game Manderly was playing and because of Frey Pie (it's kind of hard to forget Frey pies), but the other houses were still supportive of the Starks and answered the call.

I remember the Manderly's for 2 stirring speeches, Lady Mormont isn't the only little bad ass, loved Wyla's speech, hope we see it.

I actually didn't catch the clues to the pies until a certain song was requested.

[RedheadZombie]

22 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

You could be correct, you've laid out a very convincing case for it, but reading it so clearly spelled out this way kind of shines a new light on it for me.  We're seeing Jon make mistake after mistake, get killed even at one point, and are being led to believe he's rather clueless and dumb.  It seems like everything is coming together for Dany and she's getting more and more comfortable with the idea of her power and how to use it, while Jon flat out seems to have rejected the idea of having power himself or even wanting it.

What happens if Dany gets to comfortable in her own power and the idea that she knows how to wield it without the need to listen to others anymore?  All of the progress we've seen on her end could easily flip on its head in an instant.  Conversely what happens if a great need presents itself in front of Jon and he must take charge to vanquish it?  That could be what we're leading up to.

Dany has had pretty much absolute power for a while now, yet she showed in this episode that she was willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint, and seemingly listen to that reasoning, without pride getting in the way.  I think Jorah and Barristan were great advisors, and she also listened to their opinions when she was too impulsive.  I think it's a good sign that Tyrion is now her main advisor.  He's not in love with her, like Jorah, nor does he have sentimental memories of her family members, like Barristan.  Tyrion is coming as a former enemy, as well as playing "the game" for most of his life.  And while he's in absolute awe by her dragons, I don't think he's awed by Dany herself. 

And I don't see Dany and Jon as having an adversarial relationship in the end, so I think they can both ultimately thrive and be good leaders of their own.  I'm not sure that Jon can destroy the WWs without Dany's dragons, so I see them as working together.  And I like the idea of Dany sitting the Iron Throne, and Jon being the Warden of the North.  Or something like that.  And of course there's the fact that they are aunt and nephew, so I hope that binds them together in a positive way.  Jon thinks family is everything, and Dany was forgiving enough of Viserys to name one of her dragons after him.  I don't think her impulse upon learning there's still a living Targaryen would be to destroy him or see him as a threat.  Especially if she should learn that he had Maestor Aemon as a mentor.

I'm probably completely wrong, but I feel like this is where the show is leading.

[DropTheSoap]

Brienne should get her own house for service to the north. Karstark or Umber preferrably. The Dreadfort should be burned. The Glovers should be punished. 

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Dany has had pretty much absolute power for a while now, yet she showed in this episode that she was willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint, and seemingly listen to that reasoning, without pride getting in the way.  I think Jorah and Barristan were great advisors, and she also listened to their opinions when she was too impulsive.  I think it's a good sign that Tyrion is now her main advisor.  He's not in love with her, like Jorah, nor does he have sentimental memories of her family members, like Barristan.  Tyrion is coming as a former enemy, as well as playing "the game" for most of his life.  And while he's in absolute awe by her dragons, I don't think he's awed by Dany herself. 

And I don't see Dany and Jon as having an adversarial relationship in the end, so I think they can both ultimately thrive and be good leaders of their own.  I'm not sure that Jon can destroy the WWs without Dany's dragons, so I see them as working together.  And I like the idea of Dany sitting the Iron Throne, and Jon being the Warden of the North.  Or something like that.  And of course there's the fact that they are aunt and nephew, so I hope that binds them together in a positive way.  Jon thinks family is everything, and Dany was forgiving enough of Viserys to name one of her dragons after him.  I don't think her impulse upon learning there's still a living Targaryen would be to destroy him or see him as a threat.  Especially if she should learn that he had Maestor Aemon as a mentor.

I'm probably completely wrong, but I feel like this is where the show is leading.

I like your ideas and I don't think that Jon and Dany will or need to be at odds.  Her experience at assimilating into Dothraki culture and learning to respect it correlates pretty nicely with his coming to understand wildlings and showing them respect.

[RedheadZombie]

32 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

He was never going to leave there alive. Hell, even Ramsey knew that. Putting him in the Kennel was just fan service so that people could see Ramsay get what he deserves.  The fact that she chose to torture him as opposed to letting his death play out by hanging or beheading brings her down to his level. Before people respond, yes that's even taking into account all his heinous actions.

I don't agree.  If only for the reason that the people we've seen fed to his dogs were innocent of any crime.  The girl that Myranda was jealous of, a woman who just gave birth, and a newborn baby.  Three innocents.  Not the same.  Not on the same level.  No way, IMO.

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, OakGoblinFly said:

Wasn't that after the great tour of the north yielded minimal results?

Yes, but the OP I was responding to expressed the opinion that Sansa didn't want LF involved until the last possible minute within the context of her actions this episode.  So, I pointed out that she had, in fact, contacted him before.

3 minutes ago, DropTheSoap said:

Brienne should get her own house for service to the north. Karstark or Umber preferrably. The Dreadfort should be burned. The Glovers should be punished. 

Brienne is the heir of Tarth.  She has her own house, her own castle, her own vassal lords.... I wonder how Tormund would like living on an island

[nachomama]

5 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Brienne is the heir of Tarth.  She has her own house, her own castle, her own vassal lords.... I wonder how Tormund would like living on an island

They'll summer on the island where Brienne will be boss and Tormund will do her bidding, then they'll go to his place in the North and he'll pretend to be boss and she'll kick his ass when he gets out of line and he'll love it. Wheeee!

[Raachel2008]

5 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

And I don't see Dany and Jon as having an adversarial relationship in the end, so I think they can both ultimately thrive and be good leaders of their own.  I'm not sure that Jon can destroy the WWs without Dany's dragons, so I see them as working together.  And I like the idea of Dany sitting the Iron Throne, and Jon being the Warden of the North.  Or something like that.  And of course there's the fact that they are aunt and nephew, so I hope that binds them together in a positive way.  Jon thinks family is everything, and Dany was forgiving enough of Viserys to name one of her dragons after him.  I don't think her impulse upon learning there's still a living Targaryen would be to destroy him or see him as a threat.  Especially if she should learn that he had Maestor Aemon as a mentor.

I'm probably completely wrong, but I feel like this is where the show is leading.

Maybe Westeros as we know it is this close to being history, and the seven kingdons will be separated again? I keep thinking about Dany's vision in season 2 (?), snow falling over the Iron Throne. I'm thinking that maybe Dany gets King's Landing and Meeren, etc, Yara rules the Iron Islands,  Jon gets the North, Sansa the Vale, maybe new configurations for the Great Houses?

[GrailKing]

21 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

He goes for long walk (something he tells Tormund he always does the night before a battle because he can't sleep) and he walks up to the remnants of an old fire and spots it.  Somehow the wooden toy that Shireen carried into the fire didn't burn and Davos spots it in the rubble amid snow and a bunch of other charred wood.  It's pretty unlikely. 

It fell from Shireen's hands and landed outside the logs, so not being burned is possible, should have at least some charring if anything for symbolism .

21 hours ago, Statman said:

I ask again, what other Northern Houses besides House Manderly did anything overtly to aid the Starks?

Jon advising Stannis about recruiting the Mountain Clans has nothing to do with the North Remembers.  Jon specifically tells Stannis that he needs to go visit the clans in person, praise them for their bravery and command them to fight for STANNIS, not the Starks.  House Glover provides some support to STANNIS only after he liberates Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn. 

Supporting Stannis, a Southerner, is not the same thing as supporting the Starks.

Now you're in the GNC theory, which the show isn't using.

[GrailKing]

I say PTSD, as far as trust, Jon's not the problem, he's an issue she needs to reconcile due to her PTSD, from the likes of: Joffery, Baleish, Cersei, QOT, Ramsey. On top of that her two biggest abusers happened to be bastards that don't exactly follow the likes of Jon and MYA

Baratheon

STONE THE BAD ASS  female guide in the Eyrie.

If she finds out the biggest betrayal it will really set her off.

Edited June 21, 2016 by GrailKing

[RedheadZombie]

24 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I like your ideas and I don't think that Jon and Dany will or need to be at odds.  Her experience at assimilating into Dothraki culture and learning to respect it correlates pretty nicely with his coming to understand wildlings and showing them respect.

This is a great point.

[mac123x]

39 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Tyrion is coming as a former enemy, as well as playing "the game" for most of his life.  And while he's in absolute awe by her dragons, I don't think he's awed by Dany herself. 

I thought their first scene together was pretty good.  Dany was mad (but not Mad).  She had an expression (as much as Emilia Clarke has expressions) that you'd see on the face of a parent who came home from a business trip to find her teenage son had thrown a party and the house was trashed.  Tyrion was embarrassed about the mess and was trying to put a good face on things ("hey, it's only the living room!  The rest of the house is fine!" [lamp falls over]), but he wasn't in immediate fear for his life.  At least not from her; the bombardment was scaring him.  And he was able to talk her down from her justifiable anger.

[paigow]

4 minutes ago, mac123x said:

She had an expression (as much as Emilia Clarke has expressions) that you'd see on the face of a parent who came home from a business trip to find her teenage son had thrown a party and the house was trashed. 

In her HBO interview segment, that is her interpretation.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, DropTheSoap said:

The Glovers should be punished. 

Sansa & Jon should definitely revoke the Glovers Royal Warrant as Official Suppliers of Hand Apparel to Her/His Grace, the Queen/King of the North.

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Sansa & Jon should definitely revoke the Glovers Royal Warrant as Official Suppliers of Hand Apparel to Her/His Grace, the Queen/King of the North....

and seize their companies:  Under Glover; LuluGlover; and IsoGlover

[Misplaced]

3 hours ago, Nanrad said:

The fact that Sansa didn't tell the commander that there may be a chance for additional troops is a fuck up. People in Jon's position plan for every possible outcome even if it may not happen.

Except he didn't, when Sansa said "Ramsay will mess with your head" and Jon said "well I guess I won't think about what the messing-with-my-head outcome might be."  

So, she didn't trust Jon to plan, and she didn't know if or when the Vale troops might show up, and LF gets to swoop in as a true deus ex machina (which is the most annoying part of the whole thing).

Of course Sansa/Jon have now spawned 11 pages of refreshing discussion over their actions, so the show succeeded in getting reactions anyway...here's hoping we get some kind of an explanation next week.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Misplaced

[Mya Stone]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

I say PTSD, as far as trust, Jon's not the problem, he's an issue she needs to reconcile due to her PTSD, from the likes of: Joffery, Baleish, Cersei, QOT, Ramsey. On top of that her two biggest abusers happened to be bastards that don't exactly follow the likes of Jon and (forgot her name ) the female guide in the Eyrie.

If she finds out the biggest betrayal it will really set her off.

How dare you forget her name. (Cough, cough.)

[GrailKing]

Just now, Mya Stone said:

How dare you forget her name. (Cough, cough.)

LOL, I will fix it, as soon as I saw you pop up I knew :>)

[Umbelina]

One comment triggered a stray thought about Sansa's motivations in continuing to lie to Jon.  Maybe she was afraid Jon would ask her why Littlefinger would come to the fight, and she simply didn't want to answer that. 

Nah, not good enough.  I hope you guys are right and we hear something of Sansa's decision to repeatedly keep Jon in the dark about the chance of Littlefinger and the Vale showing up, because right now, the most glaring answer to me is:  Well, so we could have a really grim battle scene but our hero could still live after the last minute rescue!

[Dev F]

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Me being a bit nitpicky. :>)

Actually it was the Citadel saying that the Maesters has declared the end of the longest summer in memory, how does one tell a White Autumn Raven from a White Winter Raven?

But autumn comes right after summer, so declaring the end of one necessarily means the beginning of the other.

And you know which raven it is because you know what season it is currently, so the arrival of a white raven means it's the beginning of the next one. Planetos has seasons of indefinite length, but they still happen in the same order as ours do. It's not like summer might be followed by spring or whatever.

Also, they're messenger ravens, so presumably they carry a missive with the pertinent details of the season change.

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, Mya Stone said:

How dare you forget her name. (Cough, cough.)

It's fixed :>)....GO SEeeeeeeeee

[Mya Stone]

Just now, GrailKing said:

It's fixed :>)....GO SEeeeeeeeee

I approve and appreciate your blatant ass kissing. ;) 

[GrailKing]

Just now, Mya Stone said:

I approve and appreciate your blatant ass kissing. ;) 

Good, because somewhere down the line I may go a foul of forum rules, and I want you to remember that kiss. LOL  :>)

[vibeology]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

One comment triggered a stray thought about Sansa's motivations in continuing to lie to Jon.  Maybe she was afraid Jon would ask her why Littlefinger would come to the fight, and she simply didn't want to answer that. 

Nah, not good enough.  I hope you guys are right and we hear something of Sansa's decision to repeatedly keep Jon in the dark about the chance of Littlefinger and the Vale showing up, because right now, the most glaring answer to me is:  Well, so we could have a really grim battle scene but our hero could still live after the last minute rescue!

I don't think that's the reason either, but I could see the argument for it. Sansa has clearly told Jon about the rapes she suffered at Ramsay's hands. The idea that she'd have to share more personal details about creepy Littlefinger when it may not even matter anyways could be too much for her. I'm not saying Sansa should feel shame about any of the sexual abuse she's suffered, but I can imagine a Sansa who would prefer not to talk about it, walling it off so that she can survive. That's someone who probably doesn't even want to think about Littlefinger herself unless she has to, let alone announce to a room full of strange men that he's coming because he's looking to sleep with her.

Edited June 21, 2016 by vibeology

[GrailKing]

21 hours ago, lorbeer said:

That. I agree. It's sweet and charming that his so emotional and loves his family very much despite all odds, like Sansa doesn't trust him and still consider him as the-bastard-son-not-really-family. But in this situation it was deadly - they would all die horrible dead, slaughtered with no chance to survive. But I think it was important that he tried to rescue Rickon. I'm come on - who wouldn't? (normal "who", not "ramsay who)

Good thing Jamie Fraser isn't around.

[lorbeer]

19 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I am not a fan of the man bun.  That's a major no.  Free your locks Jon Snow. 

I don't like it either but in this case I like him better in that bun. He looks a little bit like Shang from Mulan :D (the hairystyle I mean ;-)).

And I didn't really like Jon Snow in previous seasons - didn't dislike also, just didn't care.

Edited June 21, 2016 by lorbeer

[lorbeer]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Good thing Jamie Fraser isn't around.

And why is that? Some "Outlander" thing I didn't get? :P (i've seen only few episodes)

[Arnella]

I thought the Karstarks would suddenly turn in the battle and fight for the Starks.  Very disappointing.

[GrailKing]

Just now, lorbeer said:

And why is that? Some "Outlander" thing I didn't get? :P (i've seen only few episodes)

Yes.

When Claire got the clan in a dangerous situation, because she didn't listen to Jamie, he had to dole out  the punishment.

[lorbeer]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Yes.

When Claire got the clan in a dangerous situation, because she didn't listen to Jamie, he had to dole out  the punishment.

Right, I remember. He "spanked" her ;-)

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Delivers Its Big Face-Off, Eye-Off, Nose-Off, And Spleen-Off

Bottom line: If you have a body part you care about, stay away from Winterfell this week.

[nksarmi]

1 hour ago, Arnella said:

I thought the Karstarks would suddenly turn in the battle and fight for the Starks.  Very disappointing.

Oh no the Kastarks are the ones I knew were in Ramsey's camp for sure. I had kind of hoped the Umbers might see the Wildlings organized behind Jon Snow and realize how much of a bastard Ramsey was and decide well shit, maybe dealing with them is better than dealing with him and switch sides - but I have no doubt the Kastarks are still good and pissed about what Robb did to the head of their house.

I would have been very satisfied if at some point, men started running away from the battle. I really wanted Jon's "will they fight for you when they learn you wouldn't fight for them?" to bear fruit. But maybe it will still in the war to come when Jon commands an army against the Others. He won the wildlings that way - maybe now he's won the North.

[Umbelina]

Quote

“Jon doesn’t listen to her,” Turner notes. “She can actually formulate a plan behind his back and they need it. So she does save the day. But she doesn’t really gets her thanks. Her reward is killing Ramsay.”

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/20/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-dead

Seriously?  If that's all the explanation we are going to get?  Sansa throws a tantrum and lies because she's not listened to about battle plans? 

[Silje]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

One comment triggered a stray thought about Sansa's motivations in continuing to lie to Jon.  Maybe she was afraid Jon would ask her why Littlefinger would come to the fight, and she simply didn't want to answer that. 

Nah, not good enough.  I hope you guys are right and we hear something of Sansa's decision to repeatedly keep Jon in the dark about the chance of Littlefinger and the Vale showing up, because right now, the most glaring answer to me is:  Well, so we could have a really grim battle scene but our hero could still live after the last minute rescue!

Ding ding ding! I think we have the correct answer!

I have so many questions about Sansa showing up with Littlefinger and the Vale army: When did Sansa ride out to meet them? Did she leave the night before or in the morning? If so, did no one wonder where she was? Was she left at the camp and then went riding past Jon and their army? Did she go alone or with someone? How far away were Littlefinger and the Vale army? Where did Sansa meet up with them? Her not being sure that Littlefinger was telling the truth being one of the reasons people have for her not telling Jon, was she planning on just getting further away if she didn't meet them?       

I agree with all the people that have argued that Sansa not telling Jon is just contrived writing so they could have that surprise save at the end. They could've easily hinted to Sansa telling Jon and the others about maybe having an extra army and still have everything go as it did in this episode.                       

[GrailKing]

13 hours ago, Nanrad said:

My reply is a combined response to all of the quotes: Perhaps, it's the PTSD, the trust issues, or both, but Sansa being upset that Jon didn't consult with her is moot if her trust issues are that severe. Because either she trusts him to listen to her or not; what would she have done if he did listen to her? But, actually, we sort of have answer. He flat out asked her what should they do and she said she didn't know, but just to expect the unexpected basically. What does that mean exactly and how does one plan for that against someone they don't know? Not only did Ramsey kill Rickon, he also intentionally killed his own troops in the process. There is no way to adequately plan for that. 

So either we are to assume 1. she really didn't know that LF was coming 2. she did know, but didn't trust LF or 3. She did know and didn't trust Jon. 

Basically, the question is: what was her point in hounding Jon about not having enough troops if there was uncertainty or untrustworthiness regarding if they'd actually show up? She could've just warned him about Ramsey's unpredictable and sadistic nature, which she could've easily given examples of and probably already has. OR, if she really did want to be included in that discussion, she could've said, "Jon, I've been in touch with LF, I don't really trust him and I don't know if his men will actually be here in time or make a difference for that matter, but there's a chance we may have more men." I understand she has trust issues, but her issues are counterproductive to her goal as well as the people she wants to fight her/their battle. But, her admitting she's been in touch with LF opens up a conversation and conversations she doesn't want to have, especially when she has kept her communication with LF a secret since her and Jon reunited. 

Jon did make some mistakes, BUT Sansa certainly helped by withholding that information. Her trust issues doesn't negate this, it simply makes her predicament tragic and sympathetic. 

Now regarding her warning about Rickon. She's been pushing for Jon to save Rickon since they reunited, despite Jon's protests, so she cannot casually dismiss Rickon's life and expect Jon to be all on board. Jon is not Blackfish and I don't think many people would sit and watch their sibling's life be threatened, again, minus Blackfish, without doing anything. 

I understand that Sansa has trust issues and may have been unsure about LF actually coming through, but for someone who was very passionate about having more troops to take back Winterfell, NOT telling Jon that there is a slight chance that more troops were on the way was incredibly stupid and may have even lost unnecessary lives and almost lost them the battle. The Rickon thing did change the original game plan, but Jon might have actually listened to her if she told him about LF, which she was complaining about his disregarding her input, and changed his strategy. 

Not going to rehash on Sansa, my points are already up on the boards.

With regards to Rickon, as pointed out earlier Sansa was speaking out for saving Rickon, based on the facts they are safe and her father's faith about the North, unfortunately she and Jon aren't Ned, and she was shielded from most news by her captors and Jon isn't a "Stark".

I don't believe anyone thought Ramsey bring Rickon on to the field, they figured he kill him in Winterfell, Sansa knew what he's capable of, but like in the tavern about a wedding proposal the proper questions weren't asked, If Jon asked what do you think he's capable of no matter how strange tell me what you think. They are both hurt here and they have to draw things out from each other to get ideas, and they did not.

[lmsweb]

4 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Also, I think Jon wouldn't had tried to get Rickon if Ramey had flat out killed him. Ramsey started to panic once the third arrow didn't hit. So, honestly, Ramsey DID make mistakes and was lucky that he did have greater numbers on his side as well as someone not as battle tested as Jon who fell for his trap. Rase also should've stayed in the Castle.

Ramsay didn't panic or make any mistakes there. He wasn't even trying to hit Rickon, until he was almost to Jon, because he NEEDED Jon to commit himself to rescuing Rickon and putting him in range. Ramsay is a very good shot with a bow. Up until the shot that took Rickon out, he was simply toying with him. In fact, one of the shots he took, he didn't even aim. The camera was right on his face and he turned his head to the side and was snickering when he released the arrow. He killed Rickon exactly when he meant to, and he also had good enough aim at that far distance to hit him right in the heart. That takes skill. And it also made it all the more sadistic because he did it when Rickon was literally within a few feet of Jon. No mistakes there.

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, benteen said:

I'd hardly say that Arya is undamaged.  Her over-the-top killing of Meryn Trant last season is proof of that.  I don't feel sorry for Trant but I wasn't exactly cheering when Arya was reveling in her sadistic killing of him.  To me, that showed how damaged and mentally unheathly Arya has become.  It just manifested for her in a different way.

Yeah, as for Bran, his antics is what got Hodor screwed, must have hurt him big in the guilt column.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, nksarmi said:

In the "after the throne" piece if you watch On Demand - one of the show runners said that when Jon was beating the life out of Ramsey and looked up and saw Sansa, he stopped because he knew Ramsey wasn't his to finish. That says to me that the entire final scene was about allowing Sansa to finish him off. She might have even been the one to choose his method of execution. Jon is more the type to go for beheading, but he would give this to her if she explained why she wanted it.

He's to cruel for hanging or beheading, dog chow fit the best.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

It also conveys that the stupid gene did not skip Sansa. Did she go for a bath and manicure? Why doesn't she know where Ramsey is? Who else would have the idea to make him dog food? Why didn't she supervise the preparations?

Who's to say Jon didn't have him killed behind a wall without being locked up? ( not counting Kit's remarks)so her asking isn't dumb.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, Alapaki said:

On one level, this episode was some god-damned entertaining television.  So I feel sort of dickish to criticize.

But, having had a few days to think about it, the biggest problem that I have is that the narrative was driven in sometimes inexplicable ways for the sole apparent reason of creating such entertaining visuals.  And, I think, some more simply poor writing.

For example, if you take out the scene between Littlefinger and Sansa at Mole Town, but leave in Littlefinger's scene with Royce and Sansa sending the raven, then I think the arrival of the Vale army becomes much more dramatic.  The only purpose the Mole Town scene served was to bolster the Sansa-as-bad-ass theme, but there were plenty of ways to do that.  Instead, we're left with a bunch of "why didn't she . . . " questions that may or may not be satisfactorily answered next week.

Same deal with Mereen.  In what world does Daenaeys ride home on a fire-breathing dragon that she can obviously control, see her city under a naval assault, and instead of wiping out the attacking fleet then and there she decides instead to park the dragon and pout to Tyrion?  

What we saw this week was driven purely by the writers desire to have yet another "no Mr. Bond, I expect you to die" line from Dany.  Meanwhile, the much more interesting information regarding the what, where, when and how of the Iron Fleet docking at Mereen and Yara/Theon getting to Dany is left unaddressed.  

I don't buy that, she wanted to face him and tell him exactly what she thought of him, just like modern victims in a court of public opinion and courts.

She was bad ass before that; she survived. That scene is part of a healing process, she never thought she need to see him again.

[paigow]

Sansa: [Internal Monologue] Jon left him alive..wtf...does that mean I should kill Ramsey??? I'm really tired from all that riding...nap time. Wonder what we should do with him? Should I order some of these cute Vale boys to throw his ass in the kennel???...[yawn] princessing is hard...

[gwhh]

An interesting article about this episode and GOT overall:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3652229/Girl-Power-Sansa-Daenerys-Yara-Greyjoy-step-putting-Ramsay-Bolton-masters-Meereen-uncle-Euron-Jon-Snow-place-10-things-learnt-Game-Thrones-Jim-Shelley.html